The Psychology Podcast

Episode: Best of 2024 - How to Feel Alive Again in a World That Wears Us Down
Guest: Corey Keyes
Host: Scott Barry Kaufman
Date: January 1, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode features renowned sociologist and psychologist Corey Keyes, best known for his pivotal work in positive psychology and the concept of "languishing." Scott Barry Kaufman and Corey Keyes delve deep into what it means to languish versus flourish, the science behind the mental health continuum, and, most importantly, tangible strategies ("psychological vitamins") to revive aliveness in a world that often grinds us down. The discussion blends science, practical guidance, and personal vulnerability to help listeners better understand—and improve—their own mental well-being.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Languishing vs Flourishing: Understanding the Mental Health Continuum

• Two Continuum Model:

  • Mental illness and mental health are only modestly correlated; they are distinct but related axes ([06:30]–[08:50]).
  • One can experience elements of mental illness while also flourishing, and vice versa.

• Ancient Roots:

  • The dual-continuum idea goes back to the Greeks with Panacea (curing illness) and Hygeia (maintaining good health) ([07:04]).

• Genetics and Flourishing:

  • Evidence shows flourishing is as heritable as depression/anxiety—genetics for flourishing and mental illness overlap less than 50%, so absence of illness doesn’t guarantee presence of well-being ([12:52]).

  "You can inherit a high genetic risk for depression, but it doesn't mean you didn't also inherit a high genetic potential to flourish."
  — Corey Keyes [13:19]

2. Defining Languishing and Flourishing

• Languishing:

  • Not simply feeling "blah" or "meh"; it's defined as lacking at least 7 of 14 facets of flourishing—purpose, belonging, contribution, trusting relationships, self-acceptance, etc. ([16:43]–[18:30]).
  • People describe languishing as feeling “dead or dying inside,” “running on empty,” or “invisible/disappearing” ([18:41], [33:00]).

• Flourishing:

  • Feeling alive, purposeful, and contagious with positivity. Not the absence of distress, but the presence of thriving qualities ([19:40]).

  "When we're not growing and exploring, we feel like we are starting to die. And people talk about languishing as if they feel like they're dying inside."
  — Corey Keyes [03:36], [18:41]

3. Practical Steps: The Five Psychological Vitamins

• Keyes presents five actionable "vitamins" associated with flourishing, based on research ([21:39]–[25:44], [50:39]–[55:35]):

  1. Helping Others: Acts of service, even small ones, can boost aliveness and well-being.
  2. Learning / Personal Growth: Following curiosity and actively seeking new knowledge or skills.
  3. Transcendence: Engaging in spiritual, religious, or awe-inspiring activities; connecting with something larger than oneself.
  4. Play: Making time for joy, creativity, and activities done for their own sake—not for productivity.
  5. Connection: Building warm, trusting relationships and fostering belonging.
  • Even those who are languishing or depressed report better days when they do any of these in meaningful amounts ([24:30]).

  "You don't have to do all five of these every day, but if you do one of them, do enough of it… Remarkably, if you were languishing or depressed and did more of one of those five activities… you had a way better day."
  — Corey Keyes [21:39]

  “Those small steps, over time, create a virtuous cycle—better days lead to more motivation to keep going.”
  — Corey Keyes [25:44]

• Start Small:

  • Growth begins with incremental change ("meditate for one minute") and is a cumulative, lifelong process ([24:30], [60:06]).

  "Small, small, small. I had to start with one minute. Big changes can happen just by… maybe some days, like, we just haven't eaten yet, and then we eat and we feel better…"
  — Corey Keyes, Scott Barry Kaufman [25:44]

4. Domains of Human Excellence & Their Relation to Flourishing

• Six Domains of Human Excellence:

  • Acceptance, Autonomy, Connection, Competence, Mastery, Mattering ([39:33]).
  • Not a checklist to be perfected, but directions for personal growth. Play, for instance, is not explicitly a domain but is supported through autonomy ([40:28]).

• Mapping Domains & Vitamins:

  • The five vitamins often overlap with these excellence domains; autonomy and acceptance are particularly foundational.

  "All of these things are skills. All of life is a skill, and if you don't practice it, you won't be ready."
  — Corey Keyes [57:45]

5. Personal Story & Vulnerability

• Keyes candidly shares his childhood trauma, battles with depression, and a moment of suicidal crisis—underscoring the reality of suffering behind flourishing research ([33:00]–[37:30], [42:45]–[47:06]).

• Mattering and Belonging:

  • Feeling needed by even one person (“But I need you”—[42:45]) can be a life-saving force.
  • Flourishing is described as "feeling at home" in oneself and one's world.

  "Flourishing is what I created to feel at home in this world. When I'm flourishing, I feel at home…It always reminds me that I belong, I belong here."
  — Corey Keyes [36:47]

6. Hope, Normalization, and Community

• Flourishing is Not Perfection:

  • “You do not need to have all 14 signs…It’s not Superman or superwoman…You only need seven out of the 14.” ([65:04])

• Not a Final State:

  • Both languishing and flourishing can be experienced periodically. The real risk is stagnating too long in languishing ([63:02]).

• Importance of Community:

  • Individual thriving relies on supportive communities—families, teams, workplaces, spiritual groups ([66:13]).
  • Keyes stresses that “very little of anything any of us have accomplished was done alone.” ([66:19])

  "I needed a community and people who gave me the gift of themselves and caring about…my well-being. And in turn… my research has been all about caring about your well-being and giving whatever gift I have to give."
  — Corey Keyes [67:02]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The dual-continuum…has huge implications because even if we were to cure mental illness tomorrow, it doesn’t mean we have solved all the problems.” — Corey Keyes [14:20]
• "When you're flourishing, you can't keep it to yourself. You want to share it, and without even trying, you share this kind of zest and aliveness with the rest of the people around you.” — Corey Keyes [19:40]
• “Flourishing isn’t perfection... It’s well within all of our reach, and you get to choose the dimensions that you want to privilege and work on.” — Corey Keyes [65:04]
• “All of these things are skills. All of life is a skill, and if you don’t practice it, you won’t be ready.” — Corey Keyes [57:45]
• "I love the way Brene Brown talks about that. We're all imperfect, but we're wired to struggle. And because we're imperfect and we struggle, we're worthy of love and belonging." — Corey Keyes [71:09]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:36] - Keyes on “feeling like dying inside” and the origins of languishing.
• [06:30] - Discussion of the mental health continuum and the history of the two-continuum model.
• [12:44] - Flourishing’s heritability and genetics.
• [16:27] - What is languishing? Core definitions—absences, not just "blahs."
• [21:39] - The five psychological vitamins; real-world research.
• [33:00] - Keyes’s childhood trauma and the lived experience of languishing and flourishing.
• [39:33] - Six domains of human excellence explained.
• [42:45] - Keyes’s suicidal low point and the power of feeling needed.
• [50:39] - Rapid review of the five vitamins and practical ways to enact them.
• [63:00] - Flourishing is not a permanent state; the process is dynamic.
• [66:13] - Building community as the core for creating a world of flourishers.

Actionable Takeaways

• Small Steps Matter: Even tiny acts of kindness, curiosity, connection, joy, or transcendence can break the cycle of languishing and lead to better days.
• Not Linear or Perfect: Striving for perfection in flourishing is unrealistic and unnecessary—progress is personal and cyclical.
• Community and Compassion: Seek and foster communities where mutual care and giving the “gift of ourselves” is valued.
• Focus on Practice Over Achievement: Treat flourishing as a direction, not a destination or an achievement badge.

Final Note

This episode stands as a roadmap for feeling alive again amid adversity—not promising instant cures, but offering hope and practical approaches based both on robust science and lived experience. Flourishing is not reserved for the fortunate few: it is accessible to all through small but meaningful daily actions, cultivating connection, and caring for ourselves and others.