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- [00:00]
Commercial Announcer
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- [01:35]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Ah come on.
- [01:36]
Joe Nucci
Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
- [01:39]
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- [01:53]
Joe Nucci
Whoa, this thing moves.
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- [02:14]
Joe Nucci
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- [02:29]
Joe Nucci
A select Dewalt 20 volt max tool. Get the job done for less at Lowe's we help you Save valid through 926. Selection varies by location while supplies last. See associate or lowe's.com for more details and qualifying items. This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o d o o.com part of the book is one of the parts is called Social Schisms and it's Mental Health Myths and in Society and a couple of the chapters I talk about how just political the field has become and how there's, you know, some people come from this school of thought and I and I do my best to be really objective. Like I certainly have my opinions and personal philosophies about this and my personal opinion philosophy is that if you are going to over prioritize systemic change, you shouldn't be a therapist, you should be an activist. Like you should go and advocate for the change of laws or, you know, whatever it might be. Because I believe in the individual's ability to kind of rise above to plug your book, you know what I mean? And to transform. But it seems that a lot of people will take different studies or different thinkers, whether it's their sound bites or an insight from their research, and then run with it as a way to conduct therapy that is overly one sided in terms of prioritizing individual autonomy versus systemic change. And I think that for me, I really strive to be able to do both in my practice because either route can be helpful and curative depending on the person in front of you.
- [04:34]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast where we explore the depths of human potential. Today we have Joe Nucci on the show. Joe is a psychotherapist and writer whose content contextualizes mental health misinformation, pop psychology, facts and fallacies, and culturally misconstrued ideas. In addition to having a large Instagram following, he is author of the new book Viral Mental Health Myths and the Truths to set you free. As Joe notes, while the speed at which talking about mental health has increased at an unprecedented scale, not everyone is qualified to talk about mental health. In this chat we deflate some myths about mental health, such as the idea that everyone should go to therapy. Analyzing your thoughts is always good for you. Hurt people, hurt people. Your ex is definitely a narcissist and mindfulness is good for everyone. We also touched on some heavier issues, such as the idea that everyone has trauma and that everyone is neurodivergent. This was not only a fun chat, but I think also an important one, as so much misinformation is propagated on social media. And Joe is here to set you straight. So without further ado, I bring you Joe Nucci. Joe Nucci the Nooch. How are you doing?
- [05:50]
Joe Nucci
I'm good. I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for having me on your show.
- [05:53]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Oh, it's an honor. Really great book you just wrote called Viral Mental Health Myths and Truths to Set yout Free. I give it a 10 out of 10. Really?
- [06:04]
Joe Nucci
A 10? That is, yes, the best thing to happen to me this week.
- [06:09]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yes. Because it's so. Oh, yay. That's awesome. That's pretty good. I'll take that. I'm glad I could contribute to that. Well, yeah, it's such a great book because it's needed in this time. Well, as you say. I'll say it in your words, this quote. The speed at which talking about mental health has gone from taboo to commonplace. The speed at which talking about mental health has gone from taboo to commonplace is unprecedented. While everyone is talking about mental health, this is the key part. Not everyone is qualified to do so. And so this is why your book. This is why your book is so necessary, because there's so many myths being propagated. I think that's the word promulgated, propagated. Something just floating around the cybersphere. You know, if I open up TikTok for three seconds, I'm bound to run across some psychobabble that just isn't true. So you really tackle comprehensively, virtually all the ones that I could think of. Maybe some about intelligence, but we can talk about that, but.
- [07:18]
Joe Nucci
Oh, I'd love to talk about that with you.
- [07:20]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Maybe you could have added one at iq, you know, or something like that. But nevertheless, really comprehensive. And so I had a lot of fun trying to just pick which ones I wanted to select for our conversation today.
- [07:32]
Joe Nucci
All right, well, let's get started. I'm curious. Did any of them surprise you or was it kind of like back to back, like, agree, agree, agree.
- [07:40]
Host - Psychology Podcast
I've got to be honest, it was really, like, hard, agree, hard. Agree.
- [07:44]
Joe Nucci
Okay, nice, nice. Let's do it.
- [07:46]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah. Yeah. Because a lot of these things are things that I've been trying to. I mean, we're definitely on a similar frequency. You know, we're definitely vibrating on A similar frequency. So. And you put it. And you just put it in such great, accessible language. So I think the one that just makes sense to start with is the myth, everyone should go to therapy. So now if you're not going to. I have a friend. Well, I was on a podcast with someone the other day, and she goes. She's like, my friends shame me that I'm the only one out of my friend group that doesn't go to therapy. Should she feel shamed?
- [08:26]
Joe Nucci
Well, it depends. I don't know what's going on with her, if she has a diagnosable mental illness or if there's a ton of dysfunction in her relationships or at work, then maybe. Maybe it's. It's worth getting at least a consult to see. The reason I started with this myth is this is actually a mental health myth that I believed for a very long time as someone who went to therapy when he was younger and really benefited from it. And, of course, I am a therapist and see how beneficial it can be. But what I write about in the book is there's just such a big difference between benefiting from something or hoping to benefit from something, something, and then, like, actually needing it to be functional. I don't talk about it in the book, but I've thought long and hard just about the supply and demand of the mental health marketplace. And, you know, let's say there's 500,000 therapists in the United States, which is a definitely, like a gross overestimate. And we have over 300 million people, and all of those people are seeing 40. All those therapists are seeing 40 patients a week, which is, again, an unsustainable caseload, like an overestimate. There's still tens of millions of people who fit that one in four people being diagnosed with a mental illness who would need weekly therapy that just can't get it. And so something I talk a lot about in my content and I touched on the book, one of my other chapters is, you know, that therapy isn't the only way to work on your mental health. I think I'm very pro coach. I'm very pro other types of support. And I think we. It's less of like, oh, this is kind of my philosophical position. I'm planting this. And it's like, well, I think just like the demands of the economy and the general society, I think we actually need to be thinking outside the box.
- [10:03]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Okay, so not everyone needs to go to therapy.
- [10:06]
Joe Nucci
No.
- [10:08]
Host - Psychology Podcast
And there are other. Is therapy the only way to heal someone or increase their well, being.
- [10:16]
Joe Nucci
It depends on what you mean by heal. I think that I'm very partial to something that Dr. Alan Francis writes about in his book Saving Normal, which was a huge inspiration for my book and view on a lot of this. Have you read his work? Are you familiar? He published it in 2013. And the idea is essentially, we can't be medicalizing everyday life. And he has this wonderful quote in there, I remember where he says, if it's a mental illness, it is not going to get better on its own. Like, it needs intervention. And the longer it goes without intervention, the harder it's going to be to quote, unquote, cure. But if it's just a regular problem of living, if it's a problem that we kind of all deal with, the healing powers of time and, like, support from loved ones, you know, will take care of it. And so I think I would. I would paraphrase that to adapt it to my answer. Depending on what you mean by healing, maybe. Maybe you need therapy. But I think that a lot of life is just really hard and kind of inherently tragic. And time and just general support or even stuff like, personally, I'm not in therapy right now, but I am spending that money I would spend on therapy. And I go to the spa every once in a while. I work with a trainer at the gym. I'm just kind of like taking care of myself in other ways. And let me tell you, the right head, neck and shoulders routine can be just as cathartic, you know, as a good cry or a good session.
- [11:42]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Good, good. So we've just. We've just cracked to two myths. We've just. What's. What do you do with myths you debunk? We just debunked.
- [11:51]
Joe Nucci
I don't know if you crack. I once. I once was watching this YouTube video. Who was it where the metaphor was. A myth is like an air mattress. It's wonderfully comfortable, but it's filled with nothing. And then deflation causes an uncomfortable jolt. And so I guess that's what you kind of do with myths.
- [12:11]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah. Okay.
- [12:11]
Joe Nucci
We just.
- [12:12]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Thank you. I have trouble with metaphors. Yeah, So I always mix my metaphors. So, yeah, good. I like that we deflated. Just. We just deflated. Two metaphors. Let's keep going.
- [12:22]
Joe Nucci
Let's do it.
- [12:24]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Analyzing your thoughts is always good for you.
- [12:31]
Joe Nucci
Definitely false. And this is certainly one that I used to believe and practice, particularly when I was younger. It was actually a. I think it was an episode you did with Dr. Jonathan Haidt that I listened to on Your show where I picked up on the term co rumination and I immediately flashed back to being on the phone with family members or friends growing up. And we're just yapping and yapping and analyzing and analyzing, but really we weren't moving towards anything productive. There was no emotional integration, no catharsis, no problem solving. And I also know that just as a trained practitioner, that engaging somebody in analysis when it's not clinically indicated can lead to a disintegration of their personality structure. And I think in severe cases it can lead to types of psychosis like delusions or if you're working with someone with pre existing psychosis, that's not how you work with them. You don't necessarily help them analyze, you help them kind of form a different relationship to their thoughts. And maybe I'm biased because I'm very partial to cognitive behavioral therapy. I think it's sort of the bread and butter of what any therapist can do. But I think a lot of people are analyzing and then they're complaining that they go to therapy and that they, they know why they are the way they are, but nothing's changing. And for me that's a sign that the therapist needs to then engage you in a cognitive modality or a behavioral modality or some sort of problem solving. Sometimes a little bit of an, Sometimes less is more when it comes to thinking about your thoughts.
- [14:02]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Can you say that last line again?
- [14:04]
Joe Nucci
Sorry. Yeah. Well, sometimes less is more when it comes to thinking about your thoughts.
- [14:08]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah. And I think there's this, it's maybe not fully appreciated how it could be damaging, detrimental to your mental health, to every single therapy session. Ruminating about this one thing that happened to you when you were three.
- [14:27]
Joe Nucci
Sure. Well, I've had patients come in that were previously had a practitioner that was very partial to the kind of old school psychoanalysis modality. And you know, it's something I get a lot of flack for on my platforms when I, when I criticize psychoanalysis. But I think I, I think my, I think the criticism is well deserved. I was primarily trained psychodynamically. So that's kind of like the, for those listening, that's like the modern version of psychoanalysis a little bit shorter and there's some modern twists on it. But I've inherited more than one patient who, they come in and they're really, they're really good at ruminating, they're really good at talking about the tragedies of their childhood and their trauma and, and all of it. But it sometimes feels like therapy has become more of this ruminative performance. And when I gently and compassionately and sensitively try to move them out of that, they give me this look, well, that's not what this is for. And I always have to wonder to myself, it's like, well, what do you think it's for? Because I think it's to help you get better. And even though they're often reluctant, they often do. And it's often because we actually move out of the thinking about our thoughts, their thoughts, and analyzing their thoughts so much.
- [15:38]
Host - Psychology Podcast
What do they say it's for?
- [15:41]
Joe Nucci
Well, it kind of depends on where they're at in the stages of change. Right. And so some people, if they're in that contemplation stage, which means that they're aware that a change can occur, but they're not really ready to take action yet, it can manifest as all sorts of different things. Sometimes people are a little bit rebellious and it's a little bit like, don't tell me what to do, even though that's not what I'm doing. Some people are very ambivalent, you know, about maybe trying a different modality. And some people are just resigned. They've been in it for so long that they can't really even imagine any sort of action plan working, even though they can maybe intellectually understand that they could try different things. And so that's one of the benefits, I think, of working with a skilled practitioner is those are the details that we're paying attention to, you know, when you're trying to develop some sort of self awareness or you're resisting some sort of change. And I don't think, I don't know if the, the dopamine hits from TikTok and Instagram, even in my own content, to be clear, are necessarily going to kind of give you that more kind of bespoke approach that I think is often required to help people.
- [16:46]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah, yeah, there is this tension. There's definite tension between the cognitive behavioral therapy people and the act people and the psychoanalysts at the conferences. It gets awkward at cocktail parties at the conferences, because one, I definitely want to hear, you have to say, but I want to just state the tension. A lot of people on the psychoanalytic or psychodynamic approach feel like there is great value in talking about your relationship to your mother, and there is great value in talking about your early childhood experiences. And a lot of, especially the mindful CBT approach, which I'm a big fan of, Big shout out to Seth Gillahan. My boy, his approach has really changed my life. But it's very present focused. It's very present focused.
- [17:45]
Joe Nucci
Yes. Yeah. Well, I completely agree. I'm aware of the tension as well. What I was going to ask was sometimes do you think. To what extent do you think, how different are these things? Because sometimes if I'm conceptualizing a case cognitively and we're thinking about their underlying core beliefs and the cognitive restructuring required to maybe get at some of those core beliefs, so then we can talk about them in a more productive way. Sometimes it feels very similar to pushing past defenses from the more kind of dynamic or analytical way. So just a basic example could be, you know, like the. The dichotomous thinking or the black and white thinking. You know, sometimes I'm kind of like, well, is there a meaningful difference between this and splitting? And I think it's. I think it can depend on the practitioner and of course, like the. The person in front of you and how they want to go about it. And I'm not saying there are no meaningful differences, because I think, you know, restructuring your belief is meaningfully different from having a corrective emotional experience or some sort of, like, emotional catharsis. But sometimes I'm kind of like. And maybe it's just because I'm so integrative, I'm kind of like, oh, yeah, like, this feels pretty similar, you know?
- [19:02]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah. Yeah, I like. Yes. And yeah, I mean, so it's. It depends. The tools. You know, you have a lot of tools in the toolbox. Sometimes it's the psychodynamics. Seems most appropriate for what the person's going through. Especially, you know, in trauma informed therapy. I think that that could be valuable, but I also think that CBT can be very valuable, even for people with trauma who would like to stay more present, focused.
- [19:33]
Joe Nucci
You know, it's interesting. It's not something I think I talk about in the trauma section of my book, but there's this belief I see all the time on the Internet that cognitive behavioral therapy is not just unhelpful for trauma, but it actually can be really, really damaging. And as someone who's certified in cognitive processing therapy and administers it with fair regularity, I just don't get it. I mean, I think, you know, bad therapy is bad therapy, and good therapy is good therapy. But it's. I'm always fascinated to see these posts. That's like, CBT is essentially gaslighting or cognitive therapy. Can't work if you have complex ptsd. And I don't have the anecdotal evidence for that, Personally.
- [20:13]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah, I wouldn't know. I also don't like making absolute statements.
- [20:20]
Joe Nucci
Sure, yeah.
- [20:21]
Host - Psychology Podcast
So that makes sense. So expressing your feelings is always valid. I feel like that's something that a lot of young people are being taught right now, quite frankly. Joe.
- [20:33]
Joe Nucci
Yeah, well, you know, I had on my show, I had. Are you familiar with Dr. Darby Saxby at the University of Southern California?
- [20:43]
Host - Psychology Podcast
No.
- [20:44]
Joe Nucci
She's great. She's a clinical psychologist in one of their departments there. She had this wonderful op ed, which is how I discovered her in the New York Times that was titled this Is not how youw Help Teen Depression. And in it she cited some wonderful studies, some of which were very kind of critical of these social emotional learning initiatives that are kind of teaching mindfulness in school. Just really feeling your feelings and stuff like that. Because what the data has found. It's not even just her opinion. What the data has found is that oftentimes when they implement these across large groups, particularly amongst adolescents or children, is that the mental health outcomes are worse, not better, which is concerning on its own. But one of the things that we talked about when I had her on my show was that if you are experiencing clinical depression or anxiety because you are suppressing emotions, mindfulness is a wonderful tool. Because what we often see is that when you start expressing those feelings, when you start to become more congruent or more expressed, then the symptoms actually go away. And I certainly endorse that. I see that in my practice all the time. But if you're helping a. A teenager who is, you know, afraid of public speaking, self conscious, kind of developing these skills for the first time, maybe what they don't need is to really breathe into all of their, you know, social anxiety and feel it to its depths. Maybe they need to learn how to kind of adaptively suppress it and go and experience the positive reinforcement of, oh, that actually wasn't that bad. I got up in front of my class and that was. That was good. And so that's really the. The spirit of what this chapter was written about. Because people talk about how feelings are always valid and they are in the sense that all feelings are understandable, but expressing them and acting on them. Well, the only person that has that deal is an infant. And the last I checked, no one thought that infants were very emotionally intelligent in any meaningful sense of the word.
- [22:41]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Oh, man, there's a Saturday Night Live skit. I need to find it and send to you the clip. A trauma support group and the guy running the support group is like Just so everyone knows, all feelings are valid. And like, you know, and like one, you know, person talks about, you know, this, their horrible childhood, and this other guy is like, I can't stand it when people eat broccoli around me. It. Trauma. I have trauma over it. And anyway, he's like, it's just like. And. And the other people snicker. And the guy, the head guy running is like, do not snicker at Robert. All feelings here are valid. Anyway, I'm going to. I'll send it to you. I don't think it's.
- [23:21]
Joe Nucci
Yeah, please do.
- [23:22]
Host - Psychology Podcast
I forget what his thing was, but it was something trivial. But it wasn't, you know, broccoli.
- [23:26]
Joe Nucci
But anyway, I might have some traumatic experiences around broccoli myself. My parents were no joke around the dinner table. There was none of this, I'm not eating my vegetables BS happening in the niche household.
- [23:38]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, if. Well, that's valid. That's valid.
- [23:43]
Joe Nucci
It is. It is valid.
- [23:46]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Oh, boy, this is a big one. Okay, we kind of got the easy peasy ones out of the way. Let's like, dive into.
- [23:53]
Joe Nucci
Let's dive in. Yeah.
- [23:54]
Host - Psychology Podcast
So there's a. There's an expression. Hurt people hurt people. And I. I mean, anecdotally, I think there are a lot of hurt people who hurt people, but anecdotally, I also see a lot of hurt people who are some of the most empathetic people on this planet. And so it seems like too blanket a statement, even if it is true in some cases. What are your thoughts?
- [24:19]
Joe Nucci
Right, exactly. Of course, we can trace back the origin of someone's motivation to hurt someone to their own hurt. It's been my experience as a practitioner that the vast majority of people who have suffered some pretty just unbelievable stuff. That's the thing that I think is sometimes missed on social media when we're talking about mental health and destigmatizing. It is some of the stuff I hear during the week. I mean, you just can't even believe it. And it's not something I can even want to kind of paraphrase or summarize even with speaking confidentiality right now, because it's just so awful. And I think about how that's impacted these people who have shared their stories with me. And they are often actually more of like the people pleasing, highly agreeable, super gentle. They can't even make a simple request from their partner because of their hurt. And so I think that that's one thing that I highlight in this chapter. But then there's this other thing where I think a lot of times people use this blanket phrase, hurt people. Hurt people to actually stay in unhealthy or unstable relationships, to accept treatment that they know they don't deserve because they're so empathetic that they understand, oh well, this isn't personal. This is because of their childhood or this person's having a hard time at home or whatever it might be. And I don't actually think that's good for the person committing the hurt or for you either. And that's why I think the myth needs to be held up to to scrutiny. I think if I could upgrade it, I might say something like hurt people who do not process their hurt in an adaptive way or who have an undiagnosed mental health concern might hurt people. But I also am skeptical, and this is one of the other chapters in the book I'm skeptical of putting out there, that we only hurt people or we only do bad things because of a mental illness. I'm not sure that's true. I think my view on human nature is a little bit more tragic than that.
- [26:22]
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- [27:21]
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- [27:51]
Amy Brown
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- [29:33]
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- [30:04]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Hi all, I want to take a moment to make a few important announcements that I'm really excited about. As you all know, I'm committed to helping people self actualize in the service of that. I just had a new book come out called Rise Above Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower yourself and realize your full potential. In this book I offer a science backed toolkit to help you overcome your limiting beliefs and take control of your life. Are you tired of feeling helpless. This book will offer you hope not by identifying with the worst things that have happened to you, but by empowering you to tap into the best that is within you. Rise above is available wherever you get your books. Are you a personal coach looking to take your coaching to the next level? I'm also excited to tell you there are Foundations of self actualization coaching. 3 day immersive experience for coaches is backed by popular demand. Foundations of Self Actualization Coaching is a course offered to enhance your coaching practice by offering you evidence based tools and insights to equip you to more effectively help your clients unlock their unique creative potential. You can learn more about the course and register by going to centerforhumanpotential.com sacred that's centerforhumanpotential.com sac okay, now back to the show. I appreciate your perspective very, very much. And I'm just going to add that we kind of in that equation, we kind of ignore, we kind of absolve the person of responsibility for being an asshole. Because I mean, assholes hurt people. Sure, it's like, it's almost like I'm trying to articulate my point, but the hurt people, hurt people thing, it's like it also absolves them of the responsibility. A lot of hurt people may feel justified to hurt others because they're like, well, I've been hurt. So therefore it offers justification like I didn't get my due. So I'm kind of like correcting the cosmic balance of this great injustice against me by hurting innocent people. I think some hurt people do think that way, but if you're a hurt person and you think that way, you should take responsibility for thinking that way, which is not a very helpful or healthy way of thinking about the world. It's not just that you were hurt, you were hurt. And you also developed some cognitive biases that are not accurate.
- [32:34]
Joe Nucci
Yeah, well, I think there's also, I agree with all of that. And there's also the an undeniable element of subjectivity when it comes to emotional hurt and pain that makes this myth even more precarious. Because I think if we're talking about, you know, physical abuse or violence, there are certainly patterns that you can see where people repeat things that happen to them in childhood with their intimate loved ones. And I think that they there's great clinical intervention and hope for people that are struggling with that. But as soon as you kind of move it into where it's like, well, my feelings were hurt and then using that as a justification to hurt others, it Just gets into such murky territory where I think the vagueness of the myth makes it unhelpful because there's so many different people have different levels of, well, different levels of trait neuroticism and trait agreeableness and. And all these different things to where, you know, I, like, I have. I have a dark and irreverent sense of humor, and sometimes I know I accidentally hurt people, you know, in just socializing and, you know, and of course I'll apologize or save face or whatever I have to do, but, you know, it's. If they're really, really hurt by that, like, is this, like, a helpful way to understand my sense of humor? I would argue no. You know, plenty of people with very cushy and privileged childhoods also, you know, hurt people, and they probably hurt people due to their entitlement, and maybe they're a little bit spoiled, not because they necessarily suffered. It may have been the lack thereof. And then you kind of hear that phrase. It's like, oh, like, so and so needed to get spanked more when they were growing up. And I'm not endorsing that as a parental discipline, but I'm just saying that that's like a thing that you hear. Right? And so, yeah, it just starts to collapse in on itself, this myth. I don't buy it.
- [34:25]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah, great. Well, another deflated. Was that right? Deflated.
- [34:30]
Joe Nucci
Oh, yeah. Deflated myth.
- [34:32]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Let's cover adhd. Adhd. It's the area of mutual interest of ours, something I have a little of. But I think a lot of people say they're ADHD if they just have trouble focusing or, you know, you see a lot of just flipping comments, like, not just with adhd, also with ocd. Right. It's like, oh, I'm so ocd, you know, because I'm acting a certain way. But does that mean you really have ocd? So let's. Let's deflate the myth that the reason you can't focus. The reason you can't focus is going to be adhd.
- [35:11]
Joe Nucci
Yeah. Well, one of the things I.
- [35:12]
Host - Psychology Podcast
That was very ADHD way of asking you this question.
- [35:15]
Joe Nucci
Totally. Well, one of the things I talk about in the book is I go through a very brief historical analysis of just different time periods, and it's like, are we really going to sit here and say that before the Internet, everyone was super focused and nothing distracted us? Are we going to really believe that in medieval times, when monks are learning how to meditate, however many decades or hundreds of years ago, Pick your period in Time, history. Did, did Michelangelo never once falter in all of these projects? And I just think the obvious answer to me is, of course, this has been a timeless problem. Philosophers and poets and writers have all mused about this, and it just seems to me that this is such a great example of medicalizing everyday experience. And I don't know if I talk about it in this chapter in general, but I do think it's worthwhile to just bring up capitalism here because I think a lot of us, you know, in a capitalistic society, we, we tie our worth to our productivity and our purpose and, and all that stuff. And it, you know, I think a lot of people want to get an Adderall prescription. I'll just say it for the performance enhancement. I mean, I don't think that's like, a secret. Is it, like, I don't know, like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm pretty sure any psychiatrist or, you know, anyone on a college campus is aware that this is just not a secret, secret.
- [36:43]
Host - Psychology Podcast
It's Adderall's. Amazing.
- [36:45]
Joe Nucci
Yeah. And I think it's okay to be honest about that, but I don't think it's okay to say that, you know, I, I, I need this to function. I mean, I have patients in my practice with adhd, and, you know, they are usually very late. And I don't mean they're a few minutes late because they're kind of scattered. I mean, like, it's 15 minutes in, and I have to wonder whether or not to reinforce my rule that I end the session, you know, but then this is like the third week in a row they're missing it or, you know, whatever it is. And we need to review our skills. Like, there, there are levels to how impactful that wiring can be to your functioning.
- [37:23]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Good, good. I'm just thinking, is there anything we want to add? Because ADHD is such a rich topic and there's so, there are actually so many misconceptions about, I mean, that's, you know, you, you couldn't, you could write a whole book. All right. On just the myths of adhd. I think there are a lot of things. Here's another one that's folding around. Your ADHD is caused by your trauma. That's a big one. That's folding around my head. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've been, I've been. Maybe you see me writing my responses to that.
- [37:55]
Joe Nucci
Yeah. Well, here's what I'll say about that. Specifically, is the reason why you want to get diagnosed by a psychiatrist or a psychologist that is competent in assessing for ADHD is because it can look like a lot of other things. I had a great testing psychologist on my show and one of the things we talked about was it's something like 1 in 3 or 2 in 3Americans have disordered sleep. So not a sleep disorder per se, but their sleep is not optimal. And let me tell you, when I don't have great sleep, my, my ADHD symptoms, I don't know if I've said this on this show, I have on other shows on my platform, I'm formally diagnosed with it. If my sleep isn't good, my symptoms are so much worse. Like it's, it's actually like almost unbelievable because I'll, I'll start the day and I just, I just notice that I'm just like walking in circles and I, I have to go take my medication. You know, it's one of the, if the sleep is bad, that's one of the only things that really counters it. And so, you know, if you're doom scrolling till four in the morning every night and you're not kind of taking care of your body, your vessel, maybe you don't have it. Maybe Adderall still helps, right? Maybe these executive functioning skills still help, but that doesn't mean you have it. In a similar way, I could see how an over activated nervous system due to trauma or chronic stress, I can see how it mimics some of the symptoms. But me personally, I mean I would love to talk to Dr. Mate because I do think he's very smart and I feel like what I'm saying is not all that controversial or original. But I do think that what I'm saying is true and ADHD can also be real. I don't think we need to bring it to the extreme that it's just caused by trauma.
- [39:41]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah, well, I've written some very extensive critiques that people can consult Psychology Today article about that and I've had some very intense and detailed email correspondences with Dr. Mate and my latest one to his credit, I want to say we kind of ended it on a very friendly mutual respect note where I was quite pleased with where we landed after not starting that way at all. The email exchange was like not. The tone was not starting well, but it ended. Our most recent correspondence is that we actually agree on a lot more than we disagree with. And it's just the big sticking point with him that we I guess agree to disagree at this point is that I think genes play a far greater role than he gives it credit for. And trauma plays far less a role than he gives it credit for in terms of the development of ADHD symptoms.
- [40:50]
Joe Nucci
Sure.
- [40:51]
Host - Psychology Podcast
So, so we can kind of, we can, we can say that both contribute somewhat, but I think we really fundamentally disagree on the nature nurture sort of contributions because there is something it means for your brain to be wired in a certain way and genes play a pretty substantial role in that.
- [41:10]
Joe Nucci
Yeah, interesting. Well, I wonder what like an epigenetics expert might say or like a behavioral biology expert. Like, I'm a big fan of Dr. Robert Sapolsky at Stanford and his work or someone kind of in his field could be, it could be interesting to continue the exploration in terms of where the line is.
- [41:28]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I presented some of that data to him, to Dr. Mate. But he, he, I present, I gave, I gave him those precise studies that are relevant. But anyway, we don't need to go down this whole rabbit hole.
- [41:43]
Joe Nucci
Well, what I do want to say about that before we move on is while I might disagree with him, I do think it's not like the proliferation of that myth on social media and into culture. It may not be entirely his fault or the people that kind of parrot those talking points because I know that, for example, Brene Brown is really famous for talking about vulnerability and courage and all these things. And a lot of people have taken that. I write about this in the book too, where it's like, well, maybe more intimacy isn't better. Maybe there's actually a healthy amount here. But in my research for the book, I went and rewatched one of her TED talks and I had forgotten about this, but she actually talks very frankly and writes about in her books. She goes. The kind of complete raw vulnerability she's talking about. Not everyone, she talks about this. Not everyone is entitled to your story or your whole story. Maybe one person is all you really need. And I think a lot of people actually miss that. You know what I'm saying? And so I'm sure that some people are maybe taking a clip of, you know, Mate or whoever it might be and then running with and being like, oh, well, this is all just trauma based. Where, you know, it sounds like even though he has a very strong point of view, he is capable of the nuance. And maybe that just doesn't get passed along in the game of telephone that we're all playing.
- [43:05]
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- [46:47]
Host - Psychology Podcast
I would complete I would very much agree a lot of his ideas get incredibly simplified and taken out of context to serve people's personal agendas. And same thing with Bernier Brown. I write about that in my book Rise Above. You see in the introduction I talk about we have a culture of vulnerability on steroids and you can't blame that on Brene Brown, but you can kind of blame it on a lot of people on the Internet, right?
- [47:14]
Joe Nucci
Totally.
- [47:15]
Host - Psychology Podcast
An en masse group of people, nameless people on the Internet. We can kind of blame it on them.
- [47:20]
Joe Nucci
Totally. Yeah. Yeah.
- [47:23]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Well you know people do take, you know there are scientists who try to be objective, who try to publish in journals and then get peer reviewed. But there are, there's a whole other world where people in the general public and on social media are cherry picking scientific findings to serve their activist agenda or just serve their own personal to confirm their own personal viewpoint or ideology. And you see that a lot and that's unfortunate because the truth is often way, you know all this, I'm not saying this, we're saying this to my audience the truth is often way more gray than black and white.
- [48:00]
Joe Nucci
Yeah. Well it's something I write about in part of the book is one of the parts is called Social Schisms and it's Mental Health Myths and in Society. And a couple of the chapters I talk about how just political the field has become and how there's you know some people come from this school of thought and I and I do my best to be really objective. Like I certainly have my opinions and personal philosophies about this and my personal opinion philosophy is that if you are going to over prioritize systemic change, you shouldn't Be a therapist, you should be an activist. Like, you should go and advocate for the change of laws or, you know, whatever it might be. Because I believe in the individual's ability to kind of rise above, to plug your book, you know what I mean? It's a. And to transform. But it seems that a lot of people will, you know, take different studies or different thinkers, whether it's their sound bites or an insight from their research, and then run with it as a way to conduct therapy that is overly one sided in terms of prioritizing, you know, individual autonomy versus systemic change. And I think that for me, I really strive to be able to do both in my practice because either route can be helpful and curative depending on the person in front of you.
- [49:17]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah, you're a very interesting presence in the, in the, in the public therapist realm because. As well as a private therapist realm, because you. I mean, I actually don't know what your politics are. I. You keep me on my toes. You say one thing and then I think, oh yeah, Joe's like totally libertarian. And then you'll say something else and I'll be like, oh my God, that was a woke thing for Joe to say. Basically, you mix it up, you know, like one second you're talking about how we're over systematized, you know, we're focused too much on systems, and the next breath you're saying critique of capitalism. So I'm like, what are you, Joe? And that's okay. I like to be the same way. So I get you, I see you that vibe. I like it. But do you have critiques given all that? Do you have critiques of the wokeization of therapy training that's going on right now?
- [50:20]
Joe Nucci
Absolutely. One of the textbooks that I cite in my book is a textbook called Counseling the culturally diverse by Dr. Su and Su. They were at Columbia. I don't know if they are anymore. I've never corresponded with them directly, although I would love to. But I know that in their textbook they write about the superordinate nature of multicultural counseling. And multicultural counseling, by their definition, is however you want to define it, very woke, very kind of postmodern, progressive, very systems change focused. And it's their words, not mine. The superordinate nature, as in this is more important than the other kind of clinical models and frameworks that we have. And I know that I have encountered colleagues both when I was in grad school and even after grad school, where this is their primary theoretical orientation, this is how they treat people. And for me personally, I cannot See how they are a competent and well rounded psychotherapist. I just, I simply cannot see it. And I mean that with like the hope that if that's you, it might maybe encourages you to seek some peer consultation or to kind of think about how you're conceptualizing cases. Because the truth of the matter is, yes, of course, systems matter, but at the end of the day, engaging someone in a systems change conversation when, number one, there are things they could do as an individual to improve their situation, and number two, it's not a systemic change that is going to happen in a timely fashion. I think that is a recipe for increased stress and I think the increased stress will make their symptoms worse. Let me tell you a story just to, to kind of exemplify this. I've had more than one patient in my practice and I think because I am so politically ambiguous, I do attract people ambiguous from all sorts of kind of backgrounds and belief systems. And I've had many people who are more on the left who come in and they're often so constrained by their beliefs around like, identity. So I'm thinking of more than once people have, you know, felt like, well, they don't want to really tell me what's, what's going on because they're white or they're rich or they're privileged in some capacity and other people have it so much worse and they just feel so guilty for even feeling like they have a problem. What I often do with that person is I don't engage them in a, in kind of a philosophical exploration. I will, you know, if that's, if they're really intellectual. And it seems like that would be good for rapport. But what I often do is I actually get curious about the underneath. And it is almost always connected to, you know, growing up, the parents told them to never complain and always be grateful or, you know, growing up, this is, you know, they were felt, you know, a kid, you know, bullied them for having money and it really like stuck with them in a profound way. And so they always kind of overcorrected or like, whatever it is. And I found that, you know, we work through that and they're. Their political philosophy on like, you know, systems or identity, it just doesn't even matter anymore. And my concern is that a lot of therapists aren't doing that because they're so married to this kind of multicultural counseling model that I think is, I think is very shallow at best.
- [53:58]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Well, you don't mince your words, do you, sir?
- [54:00]
Joe Nucci
No, one of the, I Think it's, you know, it's one of the strange benefits of doing what I do because I got, I got hate from an early video, a video where I said the whole point of the video was we were talking about earlier, you know, not everything you think is significant. Don't analyze all your thoughts. And I got so much hate from it. And in a way it was a blessing because it kind of made me realize I was like, well, I might as well be honest. And it's, it is, I think, in a healthy way. Speaking of, behavioral therapy systematically desensitized me. You, you know, fair enough.
- [54:32]
Host - Psychology Podcast
You, you, you, you, you, you crack me up. You, you say great things, but you also, your, your, your delivery cracks me up sometimes on, on Instagram because you have a little bit of this, like, you know, like this kind of like.
- [54:45]
Joe Nucci
Of course you gotta do it for the camera.
- [54:47]
Host - Psychology Podcast
You're a little bitchy sometimes. Do you know what I mean?
- [54:49]
Joe Nucci
And yeah, totally.
- [54:50]
Host - Psychology Podcast
And it's, it, it. I mean, I see why you're so popular, first of all. I mean, congratulations on what you've built, you know, on. You're following because you're saying, you're saying truthful things that are very science, you know, evidence based and, but you have this sort of funny delivery. So anyway, let's, let's move on to something no less controversial, but mindfulness, Mindfulness is, you know, Mic, mindfulness is also, is a thing. You know, mindfulness is important. But Mic, mindfulness also exists, right? Like this kind of.
- [55:24]
Joe Nucci
I totally get it.
- [55:26]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah. You talked about capitalism earlier, right? Isn't there a connection between capitalism and the flourishing of mindfulness in the West?
- [55:38]
Joe Nucci
Probably. I mean, it's not something that I'm only getting present to it for the first time in this moment. But I think that it's funny because 10, 20 years ago, people that preached mindfulness or meditation, it was like, you quack, you hippie. And, and now if you talk to your doctor that you've been feeling off mentally, they're like, well, have you tried meditating? It's just like the first thing that they slide your way. And what I talk about in the book is I say, look, I mean, mindfulness, to be clear, is such an important skill that if not everyone, most people could benefit to learn and practice and develop that muscle. I often think of mindfulness like a muscle, but it is not the correct intervention or skill for every situation. And when it comes to your mental health, I think it can actually be harmful. I talk about in the book a very early Patient of mine, I actually facilitated the meditation perfectly because they got very settled in their body and out of their head and they had a full blown panic attack in front of me in the office. And I remember being so bewildered. But they didn't have the skills to navigate that baseline, which was panic and self loathing and all these trauma responses and all this stuff. And so I think you have to be thoughtful whether you're a therapist, whether you're seeking therapy about what to do first and in what order. I'm assuming you're familiar with like dbt, dialectical behavioral therapy? Absolutely.
- [57:02]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah.
- [57:02]
Joe Nucci
Yeah. Wonderful modality. It's a skills based modality. A lot of times it's true.
- [57:07]
Host - Psychology Podcast
I'm a fan.
- [57:07]
Joe Nucci
Oh, I'm a fan too. Well, I'm such a fan that I, you know, I, when I was learning how to facilitate it, I remember reading my textbook and being like, wait, I can't believe I didn't know this. Like, I was, like, I was learning some helpful stuff.
- [57:18]
Host - Psychology Podcast
I felt the same way.
- [57:19]
Joe Nucci
I went to.
- [57:20]
Host - Psychology Podcast
I had happened to see a therapist once, and I didn't know until later that they specialize that their whole thing is like, for people with borderline. And that wasn't my issue that I was presenting. But so I accidentally stumbled into a borderline clinic and they taught me DBT to help me deal with some stress I was experiencing from just teaching at Columbia. And those techniques helped me with all my issues, even though the issues weren't borderline specific. You know, being able to help me, you know, like, be in wise mind when I'm, you know, dealing with conflict or I'm dealing with, you know, difficult students.
- [58:01]
Joe Nucci
Totally. Well, that's the thing, you know, that, that they don't tell you about dbt. It's not just for borderline personality disorder anymore. It's for. I've never brought someone through it who didn't benefit from it. And the way I was taught was to do the distress tolerance skills before the mindfulness skills skills. And a lot of people aren't taught that way and they don't facilitate it that way. But for any therapists who are listening, I think it's worth assessing your different cases on a case by case basis and just being curious. Well, if, if I do the mindfulness skills first, do they have like a baseline where they can handle it? And not everyone does who's in therapy. And that's okay because they can learn to get there.
- [58:42]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Okay, so just, I want to just put a, to wrap up in a neat bow this this myth we're talking about. So we're not all over the place. Mindfulness is good for everyone. False. Correct.
- [58:54]
Joe Nucci
False. It can be good for you in certain situations, but kind of like we were talking about earlier, you know, if the teenager that needs to practice public speaking. Right. I would argue that that might actually be the opposite of what the correct intervention or coaching technique is. It could actually make things worse, depending.
- [59:15]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I do assign my students a paper showing that for some people who are still stuck in this ruminative, unhealthy, ruminative stage from traumas, mindfulness can actually exacerbate certain mental issues.
- [59:37]
Joe Nucci
Sure.
- [59:37]
Host - Psychology Podcast
We don't talk about that finding enough as we probably should.
- [59:41]
Joe Nucci
Yeah, yeah. Well, especially in the trauma conversation. Right. Because it's the. It is a formal definition of ptsd. There's the avoidance of the stimuli, but you may also see, like, the rumination or like, they. They're seeking out the stimuli. And in that latter case, being super mindful might not be what's needed. It makes more sense if you're avoiding it because it's too triggering or too activating. So learning to be mindful, learning the things, feeling will pass that might make more sense. And so it's just another really great example of how a lot of times these sound bites aren't maybe as psycho educational as we'd like them to be, because these nuances really matter. You know, this isn't. I find that I feel like I've been saying this a lot, you know, on different podcasts and different stuff that I've been on. Like, I'm not doing this because I'm like, you know, well, I'm a licensed therapist, and I'm wagging my finger at you for not using this term, like, correctly. It's like, no, this has consequences for your mental health. Like, this is actually important to talk about.
- [60:35]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Absolutely. And a good therapist is aware of all this and, you know, may assign certain things for the client to work on. With the caveat, this doesn't work for everyone, and if it's not working, we'll move on to something else. So, yeah, just having that flexibility, I think, is key as a therapist. So that's. Hopefully, therapists are listening to this podcast episode and reading your book for nothing else. It gives them more flexibility in their toolkit. Okay, next one. This one's very near and dear to my heart. Is neurodivergency. Neurodivergence. So the myth is your awkward friend is neurodivergent. But really what's underneath this is, aren't we all just neurodivergent? Joe?
- [61:22]
Joe Nucci
Right. Well, you. You're familiar with this movement and also the. The literature, maybe even more than I am. So I would love to know what. What you think. The thing that kind of tickles me about the neurodiversity movement is the idea is that we all have different nervous systems that we need to honor. And I'm kind of like, but didn't we know this before? Like, I, like, I don't. Like, I feel like. Didn't I learn that, like, in high school? Like, you know, like, it just doesn't seem to be the. Be the. The bold claim that a lot of people trust, treat it as. But maybe. Maybe I just got that lesson early and I was lucky. Like, I'm not sure.
- [61:57]
Host - Psychology Podcast
I mean, individual differences exist.
- [62:00]
Joe Nucci
Yeah.
- [62:03]
Host - Psychology Podcast
And there are so many dimensions upon which we differ. But the key question on the table here is, are we all neurodivergent? And then it begs the question, like, what does it mean to be neurodivergent? And historically, it's tended to focus on a subset of individual differences. Things like autism primarily, but then expanded to dyslexia and sort of like any kind of developmental disorder that you have. And it's expanded to then all mental illnesses. And then on TikTok, it's expanded to your. If you're just 13 years old. Do you know what I mean? Like, a lot of teenagers, like almost all teenagers on TikTok identify as neurodivergent.
- [62:48]
Joe Nucci
Right. Well, you know, I'll. I'll tell you a personal story. So when I was younger, I was. I went through formal, like, psychological testing. And one of the things the testing psychologist found was because I was probably like, I don't know, what, like 10. I'd love to look at the results. I bet my mom still has them tucked away. This was kind of before everything was digitized, so it might be more difficult to. To locate. But the point is, is that, you know, I wasn't diagnosed with anything at the time. But what he pointed to was that there were kind of asymmetries in my development. So there were certain cognitive capacities that were quite advanced for my age. But then it's like my athletic capacities were very underdeveloped. I had certain social capacities where I was. It's funny because I think of myself as such a social person now and, like, you know, very, like, you know, quote unquote, emotionally intelligent and all this stuff. Like, I was awkward, like, I was the kid that, like, read in the library during recess instead of playing with the other kids, you know what I mean? And.
- [63:47]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Oh, I know what you mean.
- [63:49]
Joe Nucci
Well, all that to say is that I think I was very lucky that I got. I had this individual as a. As a practitioner, because this psychologist, you know, he didn't slap any diagnostic labels on me. He basically made the recommendation and said, look, this is where he's overdeveloped. This is where he's underdeveloped. This is the kind of schooling and kind of extra attention that I would recommend. So he grows up to be balanced, and I do feel balanced as an adult. How unfortunate would it have been if at the time, my parents interpreted this to mean that I have this condition or this disorder? And so let's just, you know, let's just kind of fill in those gaps however we can. Let's, like, get in the accommodations and call it a day. My parents didn't take that approach. For better or for worse. They were just like, we are going to force you in sports until you are no longer physically awkward. And now it's like, I identify as an athletic person. You know what I mean? I can now hold my own now. At the time, when I'm a teenager, I hated that. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't want to go, but I'm so glad that I did. And so when it comes to the. To bring it back to this, the myths on neurodivergency, I bring up the story because I think when it comes to the teenagers and the kids, I think this is super dangerous, because any developmental psychologist who has even read one textbook understands that these things are not foregone conclusions. And, yeah, I guess I just wanted to start with that. I would love to know what you think, because it is concerning, not just to see how many teenagers. And I actually have more sympathy for the teenagers because they're identity experimentation and they're trying on hats, but it's also these parents that are kind of like, kind of claiming these labels. And, you know, I mean, it'll give me some trouble for saying it because I am not a parent, but I'm kind of like, are you sure you know what you're doing?
- [65:33]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Well, your point. Your point is very well taken, and I really appreciate your perspective. It sounds like you're kind of making the argument that the label neurodiversity itself we should hold very lightly. And maybe it's not even a very helpful label. I would maybe disagree with you. Your perspective in the Sense that I don't think we're all neurodivergent. I think it does. There are some people where their extreme trait and the way they're wired puts them like one, two, even two standard deviations out from the mean, which can make it very, very. It does create a. Creates a need. And a lot of parents need a label in order to get those resources for certain kids. So I would say, yeah, yes. And what you're saying. I agree with what you're saying in the general population. I also think that there are specific cases that whatever we label it, the labeling does create a need that allows important resources for certain people.
- [66:36]
Joe Nucci
No, I completely agree. And I think that's. That's actually the reason why this myth needed to be included in the book. Because I think that the more people talk about it, as in, like, oh, well, everyone's neurodivergent, everyone's adhd, everyone has a little bit of autism, the less we lose sight of what you just said, which is, well, actually, some people need accommodations. Some people need a little extra support or they need to design their lives a little differently to be optimal. I also think, too. So I wrote my grad school capstone, I wrote about disability accommodations in the workplace. And I remember encountering a study in which they found that going into workplaces and doing psychoeducation exposure, explaining the kind of biological bases for mental illness or dysfunction actually increased stigma and punishing behaviors in between colleagues. Unlike physical disability, where someone's in a wheelchair and you might need to help them reach something up on a shelf. Because the message that ended up getting taken away was something like, oh, this person's bipolar, or this person has ADHD or whatever it is. It's in their brain. They can't fix it. They can't change it. And so that's part of, like, the stigma was. It's like, oh, like, this is now just, like, annoying and inconvenient for me. And so their recommendation was to focus less on that in the workplace and more on just, like, cooperation and team building and kind of those standard organizational psych principles, which I thought was very interesting. Like, I wasn't expecting that to be the result, but I think it makes perfect sense applying that to the neurodiversity conversation. A lot of people, I think, can feel disempowered to try to get better or improve or just ask for the accommodations that they so clearly need.
- [68:22]
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- [72:06]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Very well said. I think we're definitely in agreement on that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is the value of conversation, by the way. I think a lot of people will like in conversations these days, in politics especially, it's like I disagree with you fundamentally and then that they shut off from listening. The more I listen to you talk, the more I real I can calibrate and realize that we are very much on the same page. And you know, I just think there's great value in conversation.
- [72:35]
Joe Nucci
Totally. Oh, me too. That's one of the things I love about being a therapist and having a platform is I'm talking all the time. And you know, earlier you were acknowledging me for my boldness, let's say. But even though it's not always fun and you know, the, you know, the emotions can feel intense on all sides of it and stuff, I do think that just being in the conversation and being honest and doing your best to articulate whatever your point of view is. I'm someone that believes in the truth. It's one of my core beliefs, core principles. And I think that we'll all help each other get there one way or the other.
- [73:17]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah, we could do our part to try to move in that direction. This is a big one because I constantly. Okay, everyone's ex is a narcissist, right? Myth or not?
- [73:30]
Joe Nucci
Yeah, I think it's a myth. I think that, I think that it's not to say, you know, I think a lot of the awareness around narcissism is good because it's a real thing, you know, and you encounter these people in your life. And here's the thing. Even if we're just going to go on the strict definition of, like, narcissistic personality disorder, it's still like, what, like 1 in 50 or like, whatever the prevalence is. Like, you're still going to meet someone like this.
- [73:57]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah.
- [73:57]
Joe Nucci
Like, in your life.
- [73:59]
Host - Psychology Podcast
It's really on a continuum, though, you know, like.
- [74:02]
Joe Nucci
Oh, totally.
- [74:02]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah. Yeah.
- [74:04]
Joe Nucci
Well, yeah, I guess to say, even in the most, like, kind of strictest criteria, you're still going to interact with somebody like this. So it's good that we know. But I take issue with, you know, a lot of the advocacy that's happening on the Internet about this because to me, it seems, and I don't. I don't say this in the book, but this is the conclusion I continue to arrive to. It seems that a lot of these pages that are dedicated to it are perfect. It's a perfect, fertile breeding ground for a lot of vulnerable narcissism. Just people who feel like they are always the victim of every single relationship. Look, here's the deal. Breakups are really tough and a grandiose coping style, you know, compared to an insecure one. So grandiose for those who are listening, a grandiose person might react to relational stress and be like, well, I'm the best thing that's ever happened to them and they would be so lucky and I'm awesome and I deserve better. And all this stuff like that does come across as quite narcissistic. And maybe it is somewhere on that spectrum. Right. But it is just as normative as the insecure coping style, which is, well, I'm so unlovable and I'm worthless and I'll never meet someone and kind of like those thoughts as well. Both of these reactions are normal. I don't think that we should be pathologizing either of them because no one is at their best in a breakup or when a relationship starts to kind of die on the vine. And so one of the things I talk about in the book is that if we're going to normalize this term, we have to talk about it on the spectrum, like you said. And I think that we also have to make room for the perspectives that for some people, a narcissistic personality is a coping style. It's a response to low levels of self worth. And I think in its more moderate to mild manifestations, I think it can be helped with therapy, and I think it could be helped with therapy because I think a lot of therapists have helped it, like I don't think that's a controversial thing to say, you know.
- [75:54]
Host - Psychology Podcast
No, that's not controversial, though. You see a lot more vulnerable narcissists or those who score high in vulnerable narcissism on the couch than grandiose narcissists. Usually those with very high scores and grandiose narcissism end on the couch because they're girlfriends forced them to see a psychotherapist. That's a quote from Keith Campbell, one of the world's leading narcissism researchers said that to me. He said, you know, those who score very high in grandiose narcissism rarely seek out therapy because they see the problem as everyone else.
- [76:28]
Joe Nucci
Yeah, well, you know, it's. It's something I mentioned in that chapter in the book, but I think the distinction of that maybe vulnerable narcissists are finding their way into therapy more. I don't know if that's talked about enough, and it's something that I think needs to be. Because one of the difficult things about being a therapist is you're just going on what the person in front of you is saying. And most good therapists aren't. You know, we're. We're taking it all with a grain of salt. We're kind of trying to figure out, you know, like, the. The deeper dynamic here. But at the end of the day, that could be very difficult. And that's actually why I love working with couples low key, because it's just so nice to have both of them there and be like, that's not what happened, or that's not what you said, and you can just kind of get to the truth a little bit easier.
- [77:10]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Agreed. No, that makes complete sense, Joe. That makes complete sense. And another implication of the fact that narcissism is a continuum is that we all have our narcissistic moments. And I think there's value in reflecting on the ways in which your own narcissism may be part of the system problem of you and the other person. You know, if you view it as like an interaction effect, as opposed to it's all my partner's fault and I'm an angel, you know, Are you really fully understanding all the dynamics at play? Probably not. If you're doing. If you're splitting in that way, totally.
- [77:49]
Joe Nucci
Well, you know, and there's the. There's the. I think the. The case for kind of like adaptive narcissism to be made. Like, if I need brain surgery one day, I would like it if my surgeon was a little Narcissistic. What? I mean, like, I want him to have a bit of a God complex confidence.
- [78:06]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah. You know.
- [78:07]
Joe Nucci
Well, exactly. We don't want it to be arrogance. We don't want it to be overcompensating for any deficits. But I think that, you know, there's.
- [78:14]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Yeah.
- [78:14]
Joe Nucci
Or like even people like in media. Right. It's been shown have. Have higher rates of this. Of this trait. But I also think it's. It's good to have people that are willing to be, you know, outspoken or putting their point of view out there advocating for whatever cause they believe in. And if that. If that comes from a little bit of narcissism, my point of view is, you know, I think that's okay. I think I really like. Because you talk about this in your book Rise above, don't you? That we need to start thinking about it. Like it's like being extroverted or neurotic or kind of like these different things. Like, I think there is a dimension. Not that it's its own standalone personality trait necessarily, but it can have adaptive moments and maladaptive ones.
- [78:53]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Last question, last one, last myth. Last myth.
- [78:58]
Joe Nucci
All right, let's go. Everyone.
- [79:01]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Everyone has trauma. Is that correct or incorrect?
- [79:07]
Joe Nucci
I come from the school of thought that this is incorrect. And the reason I think it's incorrect is for a couple of different reasons. The first reason is a trauma, like having PTSD or CPTSD or just general trauma, like the general label of it. It's less about what happened to you and more about your current relationship with it. So we know that two different people can get into a car accident or go to the same war, and one will come home and adapt fairly well, and then the other will have full blown PTSD or some serious dysfunction. And so that's number one. I think it's more accurate to say maybe lots of people have trauma responses they need to work on. But I think that saying that was traumatic or that thing that happened to me was traumatic. It's giving so much more power to the event in your past versus who you are now. And then the other reason why I don't think it holds up to scrutiny is I think about, well, there's other negative experiences that are deeply meaningful and even life and even can impact you throughout your life that are not trauma. And one of the things I talk about in the book is there's a difference between trauma and grief. And I talk about losing my dad, and I certainly developed trauma responses from that. And therapy and different support has been Wonderful. And that whether it showed up in my relationships or whether it showed up the years after. But I also deal with grief. And I am a big fan of the school of thought that grief is cumulative. It's something that affects you throughout your life. And I talk about in the book, you know, there was. Everyone is fine now, but I had a family member that a bit of a health scare a year or two ago. It's actually when I was writing the book and that brought some stuff up for me and the other family members. You know, having lost my dad, we are a little sensitive, you know, to this. And I remember talking to my therapist at the time and I was very emotional and he called it a gift. He was like, this is such a gift for some of this grief to surface and for you to integrate it and process it. And I remember being so annoyed because I knew he was right, but I didn't want to hear it at the time. I don't know a single therapist out there, myself included, who would call a trauma getting severely triggered, a trauma response getting severely triggered decades later a gift. You know, I just don't know anyone that would do that. And I think it's important to talk about those differences. And if the field decides that trauma and grief are more similar than they are different, I am super happy to have that conversation. But at the moment, I don't think that's what anybody is claiming.
- [81:45]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Very interesting. Well, I wonder how the post traumatic growth field would view that. Maybe not against.
- [81:52]
Joe Nucci
Good question.
- [81:53]
Host - Psychology Podcast
But an event that led to growth, I think is a fair statement. But that's a different phrasing than gift. Yeah, well, it's just. My head is just swimming.
- [82:08]
Joe Nucci
Oh, good.
- [82:09]
Host - Psychology Podcast
We covered the entire field of psychology today. And so it's been so elucidating and I hope helpful to our listeners to be able to sort out the facts from the myths. And. And yeah, I think you're doing such a great service through your online presence as well as your book. Congrats. Huge congratulations on the success of the online world and all the best with your book tour.
- [82:39]
Joe Nucci
Okay. Yeah, thank you so much. I'm. I'm so glad you had me on the show and I'm so glad you liked it. I read Transcend, I guess. When did that book of yours come out? It was a while ago. That was my first introduction to you and so it's really cool. It's a little bit surreal that we're here talking about it and I really appreciate it.
- [83:00]
Host - Psychology Podcast
Well, thank you, Joe.
- [83:01]
Joe Nucci
Appreciate it.
- [83:08]
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- [84:37]
Joe Nucci
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Host - Psychology Podcast
Ah come on.
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Joe Nucci
Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
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Joe Nucci
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- [86:15]
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