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- [00:00]
Scott Barry Kaufman
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:04]
Kal Penn
Hey audiobook lovers. I'm Kalpen, I'm Ed Helms. Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
- [00:17]
Ed Helms
Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from audible.
- [00:26]
Kal Penn
Listen to Earsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow Earsay and start listening listening on the free iHeartradio app today.
- [00:35]
Ed Helms
This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@odoo.com that's o d o.
- [01:07]
Guardian Bikes Announcer
O.Com attention parents and grandparents. If you're looking for a gift that's more than just a toy, give them something that inspires confidence and adventure all year long. Give them a Guardian bike, the easiest bike to learn on, safest to ride, and the number one kids bike on the market. With USA Made Kid Specific frames and patented safety technology, kids are learning to ride in just one day. No training wheels need. That's why Guardian is America's favorite kids bike and the New York Times and Wirecutter's top pick three years in a row. This holiday season, Guardian is offering their biggest deal of the year. Over 40% in savings on all bikes plus $100 in free accessories. Each bike arrives 99% assembled, so setup takes minutes, not hours. Whether it's their very first ride or their next big upgrade, Guardian makes every pedal feel safe, smooth and fun. Join over 500 happy families who've discovered the magic of Guardian. Visit guardianbikes.com to shop now. That's guardianbikes.com.
- [02:10]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything. It's the rage bait.
- [02:19]
Kal Penn
It feels like it's trying to divide people.
- [02:23]
Dr. Mark Brackett
We got clear facts.
- [02:25]
Kal Penn
Maybe we could calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting.
- [02:32]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Let's meet at the Facts.
- [02:33]
Kal Penn
Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
- [02:39]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills and I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students, you know, who would be like, it's easier to punch someone in the face. And what I realized was there was a missing link. And the missing link goes back to this being one's best self or motivation. And so when you think about emotion regulation, like, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use, unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it, if it's going to be beneficial to you. Because it's easy to say, like, go blank yourself, right? It's easy. It's easy to just drink the extra beer. It's easy to ignore, to suppress, to seeing a colleague who's bothering you and just, like, walk the other way. Avoidance is easier. Ignoring is easier. Denial is easier. Drinking is easier. Yelling, screaming is easy. But complex problem solving, meditating, you know, takes effort.
- [03:50]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore the depths of human potential. Today we have Dr. Mark Brackett on the show. Dr. Brackett is the founding director of the Yale center for Emotional Intelligence and author of multiple books, including his most recent book, Dealing with Feeling. Use your emotions to create the life you want. In this important conversation, we discuss why we have so much trouble dealing with our feelings, the importance of co regulation, and why having grace for ourselves matters so much. As Dr. Brackett says in his book, virtually everything that has ever happened in your life, good, bad, happy, sad, frustrating, satisfying, joyous, discouraging, depressing, was influenced by how you responded to your emotions, how you dealt with your feelings. In this chat, Mark gives you some tips to sort that out. So without further ado, I bring you Dr. Mark Brackett. Dr. Mark Brackett, welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
- [04:47]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Thank you. I was almost gonna say that's my name. Don't wear it out, but I just.
- [04:53]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I don't know if this younger generation would know what that means. I like it. How are you, man?
- [05:02]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You know, I'm good. I'm just a little overwhelmed, but other than that, you know, just kind of like, I decided to listen to some advice, which is in my chronic state of overwhelm, I just stay focused on what matters most to me and kind of like, put my head down and do the work. And it helps.
- [05:24]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, it does help. Do you get a. Do you get over. Do you tend to get more overwhelmed cognitively or emotionally?
- [05:31]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I would say both. Yeah. Because I just have a lot on my plate, and then I get worked up about it emotionally, and then I'm like, why am I doing this to myself? This is ridiculous.
- [05:44]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes, and you do do a lot of it to yourself. It's, you know, like you chose to live this life and you chose to sign up for helping so many people. Yeah.
- [05:59]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I mean, there's a choice, right? You know, you got. My theory is you got one life to live. I feel like I've been put on this earth for this purpose and I'm going to do the best I can during this time. And then hopefully there'll be other people to take it over.
- [06:14]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I love it. Well, tell me, what is the purpose?
- [06:18]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Oh, you're really pushing now already. I think it's, you know, my. If I were to say what the real goal of my work is, it's to make sure that people have the skills they need to navigate their lives. I mean, that's very broad. I think that one of the most important skills, as you know from my new book, is emotion regulation. And if I had to. If I had to pinpoint any of the kind of social and emotional skills that are the most valuable, I think if you can't deal with your own emotions and you can't help other people deal with theirs, life is going to be difficult, no matter how good looking you are, no matter how rich you are or what position you have.
- [07:01]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. I loved your new book. I thought it was your best one.
- [07:04]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Thank you.
- [07:05]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I think this one's your magnum opus.
- [07:07]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Oh, I appreciate that.
- [07:08]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I guess we'll see. But if there's another one, the next one, it could be even better. But no, this one was really great and helped me a lot as well with my own emotional regulation. My printer just started and I have no idea what it's going to be printing right now. That's weird. Just like random printers randomly printing things. Okay, okay. We'll see what comes out. But anyway, what is emotion regulation? You know, there's a lot of debate in the field about how that term should be defined.
- [07:38]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah, I think this. I have a formula that I created to help me and others kind of think about it, which is not the definition, but I'll just share that with you first, which is that emotion regulation is a set of goals and strategies. So you have goals for emotion regulation. I want to feel less angry, I want to feel more contentment, and that it's a function of the emotion you're feeling. So what I. What goals and strategies I use will depend upon if I'm angry, if I'm sad, if I'm happy, or if I'm frustrated. So it's the emotion, the person that I am. So you Know, I tend to be on the neurotic side. I tend to be introverted. I'm Jewish in terms of background, so my culture and comes all into play. And then the context, you know, right here on this webinar or this podcast with you versus giving a presentation versus being in a shopping mall.
- [08:43]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And so yeah, yeah, sounds like flexibility is named the game.
- [08:47]
Dr. Mark Brackett
There it is. And so my real definition of it. Let's see if you can get, if I can get this right. You know, being pressed is that emotion regulation is the thoughts and actions that we use to prevent, reduce, initiate, maintain or enhance emotions for a purpose. To have well being, to make good decisions, to have and maintain healthy relationships and achieve goals.
- [09:27]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Wow, I like it. And a lot of this you talk about is in the service of realizing your best self or your best selves and see that as a common theme. Thought that was cool. That was a nice little connection to my own work and self actualization.
- [09:43]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah, I thought a lot about that. And one of my visions for this is that the emojis that when we have an identity as someone who is skilled at dealing with emotion, that it just changes the way we operate in the world. And, and if I can have this mindset like Mark, you're like, you're like the feelings master, which is what one of my students called me from courses. And I don't like that term so much, but I said, well, what about if the best versions of ourselves were people who are highly skilled at emotion regulation? What would be different in the world around us? And I think a lot would be different. I think if people had that mindset, government policies would be different, leadership would be different, parenting would be different, friendships would be different, et cetera, et cetera.
- [10:43]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh, wow. I mean, yeah, very far, far reaching implications. It does seem like we're living in a society right now where no one's regulating their emotions and when they talk to each other in particular, you know, emotional regulation is not just something that you do. Solitary, right?
- [11:01]
Dr. Mark Brackett
No, and I think that's a big piece of what I discovered, you know, in my work, which is that we tend to be so self focused, you know, in America, especially like self control, you know. And yes, if I, if I'm trying to lose weight, I need to have self control, not to eat the donut. Of course that's part of it. But honestly, you know, we're in relationships most of our lives, whether it's a relationship with ourselves or our partners or our parents or our colleagues or, you know, whatever, and you know, if you really think about it, emotions, for the most part are co regulated. And so, you know, I always, you know, when I give speeches, like you do give speeches a lot, I often, you know, use my own work, of course, and I'm like, how are you feeling? And people are all over the place in terms of how they're feeling. And I say, well, what's your strategy for getting the most out of the day? And of course, you get the basics. I'm going to breathe, right. I'm going to drink water, I'm going to drink coffee, I'm going to get up and stand up, I'm going to move around the room. And I said, all that's fine, but is there anything missing from, you know, your list of strategies? And then, of course, people I'll doodle, I'm going to crochet. You know, like, people just come up with lots of things that they're going to do to maintain, you know, themselves. And then I push and push and push and eventually someone will say, well, maybe I won't need to regulate if you're a good presenter. And I think there's a lot to that, that our jobs, you know, as people who get on stage and present stuff, is to create an emotional experience that keeps people engaged. Just like it's unfair to the kid in the classroom whose teacher says focus when the content is boring and the delivery is worse. Yeah.
- [12:57]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And taking responsibility as a teacher is a big one because it's very easy.
- [13:01]
Dr. Mark Brackett
To blame the kids these days, or parents, too.
- [13:04]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, that's true. That's very true. Yeah. You, you, you always put me into this Zen state with your presentations. Very calm. You calm me down. Um, you, you strike me as someone very calm. Is. What is your inner life like, Mark? Does it match that word perception?
- [13:27]
Dr. Mark Brackett
It's like 50, 50 for me.
- [13:30]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Okay.
- [13:30]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I'm, I'm, you know, I'm either. I'm Never really like Mr. Happy Dappy, just not in my genetics for whatever reason, you know, Like, I'm trying to have a little more like joy and excitement, but it's not like a natural tendency for me. I'm also not someone who is like a pessimist or who like, feels depression or despair a lot. But I am someone who is wound up and I worry and I worry about why I worry. I even joke that I worry about why I worry about why I worry.
- [14:08]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Neurotic.
- [14:09]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And I don't have that much to worry about, but like my grandfather, who is very neurotic, is in my ear saying, like, you laugh now, you cry later. And, and so I've worked on that, but, you know, I tend to have a, you know, a high startle reflex. And so I'm aware of it and, you know, I check in a lot and I have a lot of strategy. I'm lucky that I am. I really do practice what I preach for the most part.
- [14:39]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You do. I really like your approach. A lot of people talk about self compassion in the field, but you used a word that stopped me in my tracks. When I got to it. You said, grace. Show yourself. Grace, quote, the ability to stop ourselves from reacting in ways we later regret. I've never really thought of that as having grace to ourselves, but totally in retrospect, it's like, wow. Yeah, that's really what that is. I really liked that. Mark, where did, how did that. How did you come up with that?
- [15:09]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I just thought about it. You know, in religious practices we say grace and it has a meaning to it. And I think that we have to have forgiveness and grace. Like, we are imperfect people. We're going to get triggered. We all want control. We want, you know, so many things and life doesn't go the way. You know, it's funny because as I was thinking about, like, the work that I do in terms of regulation and, you know, at the highest level. Right. What do we want? We want to control everything. Like, I was thinking, I'm so controlling, I realized, like, I want to control how fast people walk with me. I want to control how people write articles with me. I want to control, you know, what TV show we watch or not watch. I mean, it's crazy. In the end, like, secretly, I just want everything to go exactly. I'm sure. I mean, I can't be alone in that.
- [16:08]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Huh.
- [16:09]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And.
- [16:10]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Okay. Yeah, go on.
- [16:12]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Are you. Not that way?
- [16:14]
Scott Barry Kaufman
No, no. I was gonna say that's not my perception of you, but. But, but, yeah, I don't see you as a very controlling person.
- [16:20]
Dr. Mark Brackett
But no, it's not that I'm. I don't express it to people as much, but in my brain, like, I'm thinking to myself things like, I really want it to work out this way. I want this to happen this way. I want that. Like, I can map out everything. Not everything happens the way we want it to happen. Most things don't. And so, you know, if I could control policies that are being put in place right now that are affecting children's healthy development, I would do it. And I'm trying to do that, but I don't have that much Power. And so I try to find the people I can talk to about it with. I try to do my piece in the world to help people. And I feel like the relationship piece comes in second. So it's like, control the world. Not necessarily really going to happen. Build healthy relationships. To have that camaraderie, to have that ability to connect with people, I can do something about that. And when that's not around, like last week I was in London doing something and, you know, everything, you know, everything went wrong with my flights and I'm like, I can't call my mother. She's not alive anymore. You know, I was going to call my partner. It was, you know, the timing of the day wasn't right. And I'm just like, mark, this is it. Like, this is your life, right? And you know what? You have to edit a whole manuscript. You have all the time in the world to do that right now. And so it's like, shift thinking, do something productive. Shift thinking, do something productive. And so it's like, change the world, build relationships, or like, take control over it for your. In your mind.
- [18:05]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. Well, you could have called me buddy.
- [18:09]
Dr. Mark Brackett
At your 4 o' clock in the morning. I'm not sure you would have wanted that.
- [18:13]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Okay, okay, maybe not. Fair enough. No, no. I mean, you got all the skills within you and I think that a big part of your message is that we all do. You don't have to be the emotion master to learn these skills. Is that right?
- [18:32]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Well, none of us is. And born that way. I always joke, Lady Gaga got it wrong. We weren't born that way. Everything is learned. And I'm going to say that with like, with strength, none of us is born with a toolbox to regulate our emotions. And so unfortunately for I think many of us, we had not good role models. You know, I didn't have good role models. My father had terrible anger and was very dysregulated. And when I saw his, you know, piercing eyes and his pressed lips and the red in his face, it was like, hell is gonna happen now. And my mother was always terrified and anxious and locking herself in her room and having a breakdown, as they called it back in the 80s. And so, like, what did I learn? I learned to be very reactive with my anger and to be neurotic and shut down with my anxiety. And then, you know, when I was like 18, I started studying martial art. 15, I started studying martial arts and I went to this like, meditation kind of class and I was like, oh my God, there's another way. There are people who can still their mind. There are people who don't react in this way. And then, you know, I had my uncle who was my mentor and then I, you know, studied psychology and then I was like, oh my God. There are like real things that you can do in your mind and with other people that can help you manage life's ups and downs.
- [20:14]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Okay, so does this relate to the idea of CO regulation?
- [20:18]
Dr. Mark Brackett
A CO regulation is a, is a big process and I think that's where it starts. It starts with the. But what is it so coga. And at the simplest level, CO regulation is the back and forth between two people, usually a mom and a baby or a dad and a baby, when they're, when, you know, at birth where the baby's crying and the mom comes in or the dad comes in to soothe the baby, whether it's little lullabies or a little, you know, air shaking, rocking, you know, cuddling and the goal is to kind of balance each other's nervous systems. Now it looks different as adults, you know, if I'm talking with you and you're like, mark and I'm having a rough day, if I say, you know, Scott, get over it, move on, like, what are you so worried about? Not the most, not the kindest form of CO regulation, right, or interpersonal regulation, but if I say, hey, you know, let's talk about it, you know, you feel like going for a walk, you want to go for a cup of coffee, you know, no judgment here, just like, let it go, you know, whatever you want to say. And then if I, what you say, I may have a feeling about it, be like, oh my gosh, really? That's what he's worrying about. But that judgment doesn't really help, right? And so it's sort of like just being curious and supportive and, and I think this is why the CO regulation has to come from someone who's skilled at self regulation. Because a, if I have the strategies, like I know about the breathing exercises, I know the cognitive strategies, I know the social support strategies, and I know you as a person, you know, you're also neurotic like I am or not, or introverted or extroverted or whatever it is, I can then kind of like think to myself, let me make this offering and see if Scott feels like trying that strategy. You know, if, if I know you're a nature person, I'm going to be like, get out of your apartment and go for a walk. Let's go, come on, let's go to the Park. You know, if I know that you are someone who likes Zen and meditation, I'm going to be like, let's, you know, let's go do some breathing exercises together. I know you're someone who likes to chat. It's like, let's go for a coffee and talk about things that we're passionate about.
- [22:39]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Foreign.
- [22:43]
Ed Helms
Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here.
- [22:46]
Kal Penn
And hi, I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
- [22:53]
Ed Helms
This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?
- [23:13]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You know what?
- [23:15]
Guardian Bikes Announcer
I can see you as Mr. Darcy.
- [23:17]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You got a little Colin Firth.
- [23:19]
Ed Helms
Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here, listen to earsay the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [23:39]
Guardian Bikes Announcer
Attention parents and grandparents. If you're looking for a gift that's more than just a toy, give them something that inspires confidence and adventure all year long. Give them a Guardian bike, the easiest bike to learn on, safest to ride, and the number one kids bike on the market. With USA Made kids, specifically frames and patented safety technology, kids are learning to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids bike and the New York Times and Wirecutter's top pick three years in a row. This holiday season, Guardian is offering their biggest deal of the year. Over 40% in savings on all bikes plus $100 in free accessories. Each bike arrives 99% assembled, so setup takes minutes. Minutes, not hours. Whether it's their very first ride or their next big upgrade, Guardian makes every pedal feel safe, smooth and fun. Join over 500 happy families who've discovered the magic of Guardian. Visit guardianbikes.com to shop. Now that's guardianbikes.com when you own your.
- [24:41]
Kal Penn
Own business, you own every decision.
- [24:43]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Catch the red eye or take the 6am Make a new hire or promote internally.
- [24:47]
Kal Penn
Celebrate a win with the toast at.
- [24:49]
Scott Barry Kaufman
The gate or unwind at the lounge.
- [24:52]
Ed Helms
Big props to this team.
- [24:54]
Kal Penn
Some decisions are a win win, like earning eight times points on Chase Travel. Introducing Chase Sapphire Reserve for business. With $2,500 in annual value, it's the business card that gives back all you put in. Visit chase.com ReserveBusiness to learn more. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank. Any member of the IC subject to credit approval terms apply.
- [25:11]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything. It's the rage bait.
- [25:20]
Kal Penn
It feels like it's trying to divide people.
- [25:25]
Dr. Mark Brackett
We got clear facts.
- [25:26]
Kal Penn
Maybe we could calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting.
- [25:33]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Let's meet at the Facts.
- [25:34]
Kal Penn
Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
- [25:41]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Hi all. I want to take a moment to make a few important announcements that I'm really excited about. As you all know, I'm committed to helping people self actualize. In the service of that, I just had a new book come out called Rise Overcome a Victim Mindset. Empower yourself and realize your full potential. In this book I offer a science backed toolkit to help you overcome your limiting beliefs and take control of your life. Are you tired of feeling helpless? This book will offer you hope. Not by identifying with the worst things that have happened to you, but by empowering you to tap into the best that is within you. Rise above is available wherever you get your books. Are you a personal coach looking to take your coaching to the next level? I'm also excited to tell you that our Foundations of self Actualization Coaching 3 day immersive experience for coaches is backed by popular demand. Foundations of Self Actualization Coaching is a course offered to enhance your coaching practice by offering you evidence based tools and insights to equip you to more effectively help your clients unlock their unique creative potential. You can learn more about the course and register by going to centerforhumanpotential.com sac that's centerforhumanpotential.com Sac okay, now back to the show. Wow. Co regulation. Yeah, that's a really important skill and it does, it does highlight the fact that self regulation just doesn't operate in our own head. There's something that emerges. There's like a regulation that emerges and.
- [27:12]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I think what happens is that a lot of people are afraid of it because they think they have to be the knower. I don't have to know exactly what you need. I have to have, you know, a breadth of strategies because like then I could like pull from them to offer them. But I think the, the ultimate form is the relationship that we have and how I connect with you. And just sometimes by the way, the mere presence of someone is, is a, is a deactivator.
- [27:40]
Scott Barry Kaufman
A deactivator?
- [27:42]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah. I mean that my uncle Marvin was that for me, when I'm in his presence, one of one, I was in his presence, everything seemed to be okay. It was amazing to me. Whereas there are other people in my life that when I'm in their presence I feel completely on edge, uncomfortable.
- [28:04]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And yeah, hopefully that's not me.
- [28:08]
Dr. Mark Brackett
No, you're not one of those.
- [28:12]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You know. I know, I know what you mean. Some people feel like I've entered a black hole. There's like nothing I'm getting. There's nothing. There's no aliveness of the, of the. There's no mutuality. Can you resonate with that at all?
- [28:29]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah, there's something about it. And so, you know, in my research I talk about feelings, mentors and, and there are characteristics of these mentors. They're non judgmental, they're good listeners and they show empathy and compassion. And a lot of people approach people with a lot of judgment, with no compassion and terrible listening skills. And those are the people we tend to like. When I'm around those people, I just don't feel like. I don't want. I can't be my true self.
- [29:07]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That's. Yeah, there it is. You're not seen.
- [29:10]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah. And what I find in my research, this is now cross cultural, by the way, about 30,000 people in my research study at this point is it only a third of people feel like they had someone like that in their lives when they were growing up. Two thirds of people feel like that person was absent from their development.
- [29:33]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Wow, that's really sad.
- [29:37]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Wow.
- [29:39]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Is that why we're all kind of fucked up?
- [29:43]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I'm not gonna, I won't use that term, but I. It's in part you're right. Yeah.
- [29:47]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I'm not wrong.
- [29:49]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You're not wrong.
- [29:51]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [29:51]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Which is that we have to operationally define it.
- [29:54]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. Yeah. What's his name? Nathaniel Brandon, who wrote a lot about self esteem. He talked a lot about how a lack of psychological visibility, that's the phrase he used in childhood, really helps, really contributes to the development of low self esteem as adults. He linked, he linked those things very much. So there's something there that's true.
- [30:19]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I like that a lot.
- [30:21]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, me too. And low self esteem really is an uncertain self esteem. You're not sure who are you really?
- [30:31]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Who am I? What's my worth? What's my purpose and value in this world? And related to that, Scott, I found in my research that people who have these mentors growing up have about 20% higher purpose and meaning in life as adults.
- [30:47]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Really?
- [30:47]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yep.
- [30:48]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You found that data? Yeah. You found that in your own data?
- [30:50]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah, and it's been replicated. This is like 70 different samples that I've used.
- [30:56]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And I would say stop showing off.
- [31:00]
Dr. Mark Brackett
90. 90 of those samples. It's replicated. Wow.
- [31:06]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I mean, that's a really big effect. That's a big effect size.
- [31:09]
Dr. Mark Brackett
It is.
- [31:10]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I imagine given the sample numbers. Holy cow. Okay, so there's really something really important there and profound. I thought maybe we can go through some of the skills that people could use. You have a four step solution. Start sense, stop, strategize, succeed. This is your meta moment method. Can you talk a little bit about that method?
- [31:41]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah. So years ago, I have a colleague, her name is Robin Stern, she's also a psychologist and she's an expert at gaslighting. She wrote a book called Gaslight Effect.
- [31:53]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But she doesn't do gaslighting.
- [31:54]
Dr. Mark Brackett
No, she's not a gaslighter. She just helps people who have been gas lit. Um, and she's a clinical psychologist. I'm a research psychologist with some clinical training, but I really focus on research. And she would see patients for years and like teach them strategies and they wouldn't use them or they'd say, that's amazing. They try it once, it would fail and then they wouldn't do it again. I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills and I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students, you know, who would be like, it's easier to punch someone in the face. And what I realized was there was a missing link. And the missing link goes back to this being one's best self or motivation. And so when you think about emotion regulation, like, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it, if it's going to be beneficial to you. Because it's easy to say, like, go blank yourself, right? It's easy. It's easy to just drink the extra beer, it's easy to ignore, to suppress, to seeing a colleague who's bothering you and just like walk the other way. Avoidance is easier. Ignoring is easier. Denial is easier. Drinking is easier. Yelling, screaming is easy. But complex problem solving, meditating, you know, takes effort. And so you have to realize, like, oh, I'm going to benefit from this. And so what we decided to do was play around. We've played around with this for years, was a model to help people see the value of emotion regulation. And so the first step is you got to know you're having A feeling, right? You gotta be aware that something. There's a sensation in your body and your mind that someone has said something or whatever happened in the world that is activating you in some way or form or another. And we all have triggers, you know, I mean, every one of us does. You know, for example, one of my big things because of where I work. And actually you were there. So you know this too. We met when you were my teaching fellow. Yeah, that's true. Look at that.
- [34:15]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Pretty cool.
- [34:15]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You've grown up. The is entitlement, you know, and so, like, I come from very humble blue collar roots. My father was an air conditioning repairman. My mom had various jobs as a secretary, different things. And here I am at this university where, you know, I get students who are like, professor Brackett, I've got a question. But, you know, I'm not really sure you're gonna know the answer. And, you know, my internal self and my brain is like. I mean, I may not know the answer, but I'm going to grade your paper. You know, my point is, it's like activating for me. And I want to say something like, who, you know, who raised you? You know, I want to really go back at these kids. And of course, I'm the professor of Emotional Intelligence. So I stop, I take my breath, and I think, mark, how would the best version of yourself respond to this? How would the feelings master. How would you know the director of the center for Freakin Emotional Intelligence use this information wisely.
- [35:18]
Scott Barry Kaufman
What would Mark Brackett do?
- [35:21]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Wwmbd and it's amazing, though, when you can lower the temperature and shift your mindset to this kind of superhero self or director self or whatever that self is for you, you come up with a lot better ideas. And so usually, like, when I have that entitlement issue, I just say things like, I'm really curious. What made you ask the question that way? And then all of a sudden like, oh, you know, I'm not being retaliatory, but I'm being curious and I'm being firm. Okay. And I find it works well for my own family life because I'm in a good marriage. I have a husband, we've been together for 30 years, but he's an artist, I'm an academic, and we don't have a lot in common. And so I'm Mr. Like, director, producer. Like, you know, I like things in order. I'm very. I have a calendar that's perfectly organized, and I live an artist who doesn't operate that way. And so I'm practicing this a lot because, you know, it's like I. I have an expectation that this person has the same brain as I do, and it's not that way. And again, going back to control, like, if it were the way I'd like it to be, you'd do this when I say you do it and we'd have this accomplished and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it doesn't always work out that way. So I used to just, like, lose it. And then I decided, like, first, Mark, you have no control over this guy's brain. This is the way he operates. And you wouldn't be attracted to someone who was like you anyway, because you can't even stand yourself.
- [37:10]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That's hilarious.
- [37:12]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And so there's a lot of benefits to having this creative partner.
- [37:15]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You need that.
- [37:16]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And so before you enter the door today, before you come home and enter into the chaos or not, how are you going to show up? And yeah, I activate Mark, the feelings master mentor before I walk in the house. And then no matter what expectation was it met or whatever happens, I'm able to manage it. And not always I'm not perfect, just. But my point is here, that it's a step. Like what we're talking about here is that you notice what's going on. You can be preventative too, and proactive about it. You take that breath to deactivate your system. You see your best self, and then you can strategize and act in a way that aligns with your values to achieve a great outcome.
- [38:07]
Scott Barry Kaufman
So I really, really like that. And my question is, can your strategy, can you decide the best strategy for you is to not be so calm. I find that whenever people talk about their best self, it just always goes back to like kindness and all the fucking boring shit. Yeah, no, I'm joking, but I agree with you. No, no, it's like you never hear someone say, like, I just want to play devil's advocate for a second.
- [38:38]
Dr. Mark Brackett
It's okay.
- [38:38]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And this might not be my best self coming out right now. And I may.
- [38:42]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I can hear now.
- [38:44]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I love that, Mark. But, but, but I, but there's a part of me that really values and thinks that my, my part of my best self is honesty.
- [38:53]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah.
- [38:54]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And there's so much bullshit in this world and I don't think every single thing has to be kindness. Every friggin.
- [39:01]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I don't agree with that, by the way.
- [39:03]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And I want to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, I want to hear your thoughts on that. So sometimes truth. So you would say you can always integrate truth and kindness. You would say something like that? Probably. Like, yes. You would say you never have to sacrifice kindness in the. In the service of truth. Is that. Is that what you would say?
- [39:20]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I agree. I do believe that.
- [39:23]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Okay.
- [39:23]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I don't think you have.
- [39:24]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Maybe it depends how you define the word kindness.
- [39:26]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Well, I don't think you have to. Have to pummel someone to get your message across. And so.
- [39:35]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Sure.
- [39:37]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And I think that, you know, if you are someone, for example, in our society right now at present, if you are of minority status, life is tougher for you. And I don't think that telling someone who is being. Who is a victim of racism to, like, become is the right thing. I think that's. That's an injustice right there. I think we have to support people in. And being assertive and really being clear. Like, what you said is not cool. And I think sometimes our best selves, you know, stands up for ourselves and stands up for other people. When I witness and does this, I try my best to not be like, everything's okay. No, let's. It's not okay. Like, what you said is not cool. Now, I don't have to punch you in the face and tell you to go blank yourself, but I do have to say with. With a lot of clarity. You know, listen, that's not cool. That's not working right now. And what you just said really was inappropriate and unhelpful, and I need you to stop.
- [40:49]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Really? You talking about my point?
- [40:50]
Dr. Mark Brackett
No, I act for a minute. Did it work? It looked like it worked.
- [40:53]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That was good. It was good. No, I do hear what you're saying, and I think I'm making a little bit of a different point, because not everything is about injustice and justice.
- [41:02]
Dr. Mark Brackett
That's just one example.
- [41:04]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And it's a good example for sure. I've been practicing the art of yes. And lately the improv thing, because I'm working on a project right now, Second City Improv, and we're trying to create world peace through. Yes. Ending. So definitely. So, yes, that was a really good example. But sometimes people say things that aren't true, and if you point out what the truth is, it hurts their feelings. And so what do you do about that situation?
- [41:41]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Well, I get this. That's a big box that you just opened, and so it's worth talking about. I think it is. And I think that's the ultimate form of masterful co regulation.
- [41:52]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh, that's cool.
- [41:53]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And so I think what's interesting, you know, is in Friendships and relationships. So, you know, I have. I have different friends for different purposes, you know, like. And, you know, when I. One of the things that I find difficult just to be. Since we're talking frankly here, you know, is that I've been blessed in my career. I feel very lucky to have, like, the ability to write a book and write two books and, you know, run around talking about it and lead a center at the university. But not everybody's happy for me, you know, and. And a lot of people socially that, you know, in the society that, like right now would like to, like, take me down, really. Oh, there's. There is. Either there's, like, in people I'm sure have experiences, people who envy you, or people who just think, like, what you do is, like, not the right thing. I'm brainwashing people.
- [42:54]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You're such a force for good, Mark.
- [42:55]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I'm saying, you know, but some people think I'm a social engineer.
- [43:01]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Never occurred to me.
- [43:02]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah, but my point about that is, especially in close relationships, like, if you can't have an honest conversation, I mean, I think just my brain is going in terms of, like, romantic relationships now. Like, some people's couples, ships, like, fall apart because the sex is not as good as it used to be. You know, the. You can't share, you know, the news that you feel you want to share about. Maybe you're. Whatever something positive happened, but you feel like if you talk about that too much, your partner is going to feel bad about themselves because they haven't achieved their thing. And I think if we can't find ways to have open communication with people around the feelings that we're having, like, if I have a close. Like a really good friend who, you know, I had a really close friend when my father died. She called my assistant and she said, I need you to go into Mark's office and tell him I love him now. I thought that was weird. I'm like, this is a friend of mine for, like, 30 years. You're calling my assistant to tell her to tell me that you love me. Like. And so because of my relationship with the person, because I was comfortable, you know, in terms of how I could communicate it. I just picked up the phone and I said, hey, blank, blank. You know, like, you got to be kidding me. You know, like. And she's like, I just didn't want to bother you. I figured that you were in the height of the moment with your father just passing. I didn't want to. I just want you to know that I cared and I said, you know me better than that. Like, come on. We are close enough that you could just say, like, put Mark on the phone. Yeah. And she's like, you know, you're right. And she was. It was my own insecurity. I just didn't know what to say to you at that moment. I felt safer and more comfortable. And I said, understandable. But I think the point of this, what I'm sharing with you, is that the co regulation piece is not about you in the. In the scenario where my father has died and I'm feeling loss. It's about getting out of your own comfort zone to understand and figure out what are the. What are the needs of the other person and how can I be most supportive to them. Not necessarily what's most comfortable for you in that moment.
- [45:30]
Ed Helms
Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here.
- [45:33]
Kal Penn
And hi, I'm Cal Penn and we're the host hosts of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
- [45:40]
Ed Helms
This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?
- [46:00]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Give. You know what?
- [46:02]
Guardian Bikes Announcer
I can see you as Mr. Darcy.
- [46:04]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You got a little Colin Firth.
- [46:06]
Ed Helms
Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here, listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Guardian Bikes Announcer
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- [47:28]
Kal Penn
Business, you own every decision.
- [47:30]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Catch the red eye or take the 6am Make a new hire or promote internally.
- [47:34]
Kal Penn
Celebrate a win with the toast at.
- [47:36]
Scott Barry Kaufman
The gate or unwind at the lounge.
- [47:39]
Ed Helms
Big props to this team.
- [47:41]
Kal Penn
Some decisions are a win win like earning eight times points on Chase Travel. Introducing Chase Sapphire Reserve for business. With $2,500 in annual value, it's the business card that gives back all you put in. Visit chase.com ReserveBusiness to Lear cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank. Any member of DIC subject to credit approval terms apply.
- [47:58]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything. It's the rage bait.
- [48:08]
Kal Penn
It feels like it's trying to divide people.
- [48:12]
Dr. Mark Brackett
We got clear facts.
- [48:13]
Kal Penn
Maybe we could calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting.
- [48:20]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Let's meet at the facts.
- [48:22]
Kal Penn
Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
- [48:29]
Scott Barry Kaufman
I think that it's really valuable to think that through before you open your mouth about something. Is it going to be worth it?
- [48:37]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah.
- [48:37]
Scott Barry Kaufman
You know, if I, and I know, I think that was, that was really sensible. You know, you talk a lot about being in alignment with your best self. And that was my favorite chapter, was the best self chapter. Was my response true to my best self? Did it help me achieve my relationship goals or do I need more practice with the strategy? Perhaps I need to replace the strategy with a more helpful one. And man, if you're constantly getting in touch with that, I can see really good things happening in your life. I think there's a certain level of mindfulness required.
- [49:12]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah.
- [49:13]
Scott Barry Kaufman
To do that so you don't get caught in kind of this automatic mode. Right.
- [49:17]
Dr. Mark Brackett
There is. And I think this is why, you know, just let me. What happened in terms of this book was that the pandemic hit, as we all know. And I thought, Mark, like, really, like, you're the feelings mentor. You know, you're going to be great at this. And I did terrible for the first few months. I got really overwhelmed. I got scared, which is justifiable. Right. It was a weird moment. My relationship suffered. I started eating really unhealthy. I stopped exercising. I was kind of like, ah. And then people were like, I had guys calling me saying, like, I can't, I can't believe I have to work from home on my, on my kids, tech coordinator on my. Now I'm like, with my wife all day long. I'm, you know, I'm not used to that. I'M with my partner. You know, like, people just became. People really lost it. And then I started doing all this research on, like, well, what would you have hoped to have known how to do? And, and that's kind of where this book came from. And what I realized in terms of emotion regulation is that, you know, we tend to think of it as like, one thing, you take a deep breath. But like, you know, I could take a deep breath and then have even more clarity why I hate you.
- [50:32]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Right.
- [50:34]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And so like, it's a necessary but insufficient strategy.
- [50:39]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Right, Right.
- [50:40]
Dr. Mark Brackett
So I think we get caught up in, like, everybody takes a deep breath. And yes, breathing helps, but it's not. It's not the be all, end all. And then there's cognitive strategies. But sometimes I can I try. Mark, take the high road. Mark, take the high road. And I don't take the high road. Then there's relationship strategies. There's, you know, being with people that lift you up, helping, you know, having a sounding board, like, can you just give me some thoughts or ideas about this? But then there's a whole bunch of other stuff. Like, you know, I call it your emotion regulation budget, which is, you know, your sleep, your nutrition and your physical activity, because that's more preventative. I know that. I know that when I don't get a good night's sleep, I'm more irritable in the morning when I do physical activity. My all my neurochemicals are different and I'm a kinder, easier person. You know, it just is what it is. And so my point of telling you all this is that, and obviously you have to kind of get into the depths of how to do all these things which you can learn about, but, like, they're all needed and sometimes you use all of them to deal with one emotion. Right? So at the airport, when the flight attendant, you know, the person on the intercom says, like, we thought we were going to take off tonight, but we're not. Sorry, everybody. And you want to go, like, become a lunatic. First you take a deep breath, then you make a phone call. I'm going to miss the talk that I'm supposed to give tomorrow. And you, then you're like, I can't believe this. This is my reputation at stake. And then you call someone else to say, like, what do you think I should do? Should I try to do it virtually? Do I? Just whatever. And then you need to make a plan, like, where am I staying tonight? And then on your way to the hotel room, you start yelling at yourself. And you say, mark, like this is your life right now. Look, you're gonna go watch. You can get to watch TV tonight, you know, and it's like a whole bunch of stuff you've done to deal with the frustration or the anger. Does that make sense?
- [52:49]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, it totally makes sense. I mean, your book has so many great strategies for dealing with that kind of stuff. And not only that, but just being mindful of this gap you have between where you are now and your best self and where you want to be. You have these fill in the blanks, which I really like. I want to see myself as someone who is. I want other people to know me as someone who is. What is your role? A lot of that speaks to the value of identity. And I know that was your point when you were talking about the master, the emotion master. Even though you hated it, there was still something nice you said about having that as part of your identity. And I really, you know, I want that to be part of my identity too. Is like someone who can emotionally regulate, you know, and can almost, I want to say, handle any situation. My worst fear happened a couple months ago, before I moved back to New York. Every single day in my building in Santa Monica. My, my. I would fear getting stuck in the elevator. It's a really tiny elevator, and I would even like time. I have to stop, watch. And I would time it going up and down until I know that was fine, everything was fine. You know, 10 seconds, I know I'll be out, you know. And the day before I moved back, I walk in the elevator, it closes and doesn't move. And I'm like, are you kidding me? I was like, are you kidding me? The day before. You know, this is like my worst fear. And yeah, I surprisingly was calm. I mean, I didn't see that coming. But sometimes, sometimes you really don't know just how. How much you can handle something until you actually.
- [54:31]
Dr. Mark Brackett
We're much more capable, I think, than most people think we are. Yeah, but you're bringing up a good point, which is that if you have, you know, if you're nervous about, for example, getting the elevator because you think it might break down, or let's say you're in public speaking challenge or whatever it could be. Yeah. You're nervous about if you're a teacher going into the meeting with the parent who's going to like berate you for their kids bad grades, or a colleague who's got to go give a kid another colleague feedback.
- [54:59]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Feedback.
- [55:00]
Dr. Mark Brackett
There's a lot of that we can do to be prepared for that. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like kind of the if then work, you know, how am I going to feel when I'm in that meeting with my, you know, I remember years ago I had to give someone very difficult feedback about the quality of their writing. You know, as a professor. Right. This is what, you know, you wrote. You. I know, remember writing all those papers. You had an advisor. Right. That was probably particular or, you know, or not. I have. I'm pretty particular, especially around like grammar. Like, it really drives me. Like you're getting a PhD in like just grammatical mistakes. You got to be kidding me.
- [55:47]
Scott Barry Kaufman
So how do you show kindness there, Mark?
- [55:50]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Well, it's tough. I take my breaths.
- [55:53]
Scott Barry Kaufman
So you say you see my point earlier?
- [55:55]
Dr. Mark Brackett
No, but I do. I don't. I, you know, I could take the red pen and be like, this is a piece of crap and this is the worst thing I've ever read and you should go get a job, you know, blah, blah, blah, and like, like I'm going to feel like crap afterwards. They're going to hate me. They're going to go get a job somewhere and tell everybody that I was a jerk. Like, I don't want that. And so how can I be, like, show my disappointment and frustration in a way that motivates the person to want to work harder and be more careful? I think that's, that's why we're in this profession as psychologists, to help people, not to make people feel worse about themselves. And I think you're right. Sometimes you do need to give people a wake up call. And I have been.
- [56:33]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, yeah, but so how do you do it? Don't leave us on the edge of our seat here. How did you.
- [56:40]
Dr. Mark Brackett
What I would say, and I can tell you, you know, is that, you know, I read your paper and I have to say I was just really disappointed. There were quite a lot of typos and a lot of grammatical mistakes and I'm not sure if you were in a rush. I'm not sure if it's just something that you're not picking up on.
- [56:59]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Fewer on drugs.
- [57:00]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Yeah, but it's possible. Who knows? But it's just not acceptable. Like, you have to realize that, you know, this is, you know, we're trying to publish these papers in top tier journals and you know, the expectation is that you.
- [57:16]
Kal Penn
Right.
- [57:16]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Do you need someone to proofread before you hand it in to me to review whatever you need to do? It's going to be important for you moving forward to make sure that this is written in a way that is, you know, with as few typos and grammatical errors as possible.
- [57:34]
Scott Barry Kaufman
And that's kind because you didn't. Why is that kind? It's kind because you didn't throw them out. You still gave them a second chance. You still showed them that they have redemption qualities.
- [57:47]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You know, it's a great space. It's like kind of giving people. It's like a, you know, instilling a growth mindset in their writing skills.
- [57:54]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Right, Right. Because you. You're like, I know you can do.
- [57:57]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Better, you know, or I'm hopeful you can do better. I don't know necessarily, but I have a feeling that something went wrong in this draft.
- [58:06]
Scott Barry Kaufman
For the love of God, I hope you do better.
- [58:08]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Exactly. For the love of your.
- [58:13]
Scott Barry Kaufman
But, Mark, what if they do it like, five more times? I mean, deserve a point where, like, enough's enough.
- [58:17]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Then. Then. Then there's. That's honesty, too. Like, you've gotten this feedback multiple times, right. It's clear there's, you know, something missing. And unfortunately, your brain, Half your brain. What's that?
- [58:31]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Half your brain might be missing.
- [58:33]
Dr. Mark Brackett
See, that's where you don't go. You just say, no, that.
- [58:36]
Scott Barry Kaufman
That wouldn't be kind. That wouldn't be kind.
- [58:38]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You know, writing may not be your strength area.
- [58:41]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Writing might not be your strength. This might not. And unfortunately, that's like the bulk of what this is what we're doing here. But you say, I'm going to quote you. You say, you don't need to say what's on your mind. It's not going to have a positive effect. You want this person to be on your side. You don't want to alienate him or put him on the defensive. How do you want this moment to turn out? Your best self needs to step up and make that happen. This is a very common theme in your book. It's not just about individual self regulation, but so much of your book is about. Well, in a way, it's regulating yourself in a way that helps regulate others to have an optimal social outcome.
- [59:29]
Dr. Mark Brackett
It is. And I think people need scripts for that. And that's one of what I did in this book, which I haven't done before, which is I would have a call, like, a friend of mine's going through a divorce, and it's like, I'm freaking out and I think I want to go back to my husband because, you know, I'd rather be miserable but with somebody than alone and like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then instead of saying like, you got to be freaking kidding me. Like, you're going to go back to that? Like, do you remember what you talked to me about, like, three months ago, how much you hated this relationship? Instead, I would say things like, I'm curious what's going on right now for you that makes you want to do that? Or I would say things like, can you just remind me about why you decided not to stay with this person? And they would go on and on, and I'd be like, wow, like, that's a lot, you know, what are you thinking now? Oh, my God, thank you for making me do that, because why the hell would I want to go back to that? And so it's like helping the person discover for themselves as opposed to being the knower, the teller.
- [60:34]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh, I like that. That's like being a good coach.
- [60:37]
Dr. Mark Brackett
It is a coach. It's coaching. Yeah.
- [60:39]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. That's what it is. That's what coaching is. Yeah.
- [60:41]
Dr. Mark Brackett
But I think people need, like, people don't know. Parents don't know how to do that a lot. Partners don't know how to do it. And I felt the need to really, like, I would even ask permission for a few people. Do you mind if I record this? Because it's, like, hard to remember all the little nuances in the way you. And the ways that you kind of, like, go back and forth with people.
- [61:02]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, but.
- [61:05]
Dr. Mark Brackett
And the point is that it, you know, it's effortful, like I said, but the end result is that it builds trust, it builds a healthy relationship as opposed to alienate someone, you know, et cetera.
- [61:18]
Scott Barry Kaufman
For sure. It's in line with my own definition of healthy authenticity as, yeah, you know, saying. Saying things, acting in integrity in ways that show growth of relationships and your whole self. That's a rough, rough, rough summary of how I define healthy authenticity. But I definitely. Yeah, it's definitely my. And your book is very much in line with, you know, my main recent book, Rise above, and the ideas of overcoming a victim mindset and empowering yourself.
- [61:48]
Dr. Mark Brackett
I agree. I think that part of it, you know, is a lot of, you know, when I interviewed you about your book and, you know, we talked about it, is I was just actually in London giving a speech, and one of the first questions that someone came up to me about was about trauma, you know, and adverse child experiences. And, you know, what do you do in terms of that and regulation? And, you know, I said the goal right, in life is to grow, not to be stuck. And so if someone is constantly reminding themselves about their abuse or their trauma, but not. Not seeking alternative ways to think about their lives and grow. Like, from my perspective, that is the most unhelpful thing. And I think it's our obligation to help people grow out of those experiences as opposed to live in them their whole lives. Now, as you know, I was sexually abused as a kid for five years. I know what it's like to be traumatized and to have memories of horrific things happening to you, but I chose, you know, and it's taken me a lifetime. But I don't identify as a victim. I don't. I don't even identify as someone who had terrible experiences, who has learned from those experiences and who will do everything he can to not, you know, to help people develop the skills they need to never get themselves into that position or to have the courage to talk about it, etc, and to me, that's that really the only way to go.
- [63:33]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Beautiful. Well, I found your book so masterful, and I'm glad you wrote a book for adults. So thank you. Thank you for, you know, you could have written about children the rest of your life. And then I'm like, how's this helping me? And you've helped so many adults with this book, and you still do have a chapter on the children chapters. So let me end with this great quote from your book. You say virtually everything that has ever happened in your life, good, bad, happy, sad, frustrating, satisfying, joyous, discouraging, depressing, was influenced by how you responded to your emotions, how you dealt with your feelings. Congratulations on. Yeah, Truly masterful book and how to deal with your feelings. A book that I will return again and again. And I will be teaching in my course in the fall. I've seen some things I want to put into my lectures, so thank you so much, mark. Professor, professor, Dr. Dr. Brackett. And yeah, I wish you all the best in the book tour.
- [64:31]
Dr. Mark Brackett
All right, thanks, Scott.
- [64:36]
Kal Penn
Hey, audiobook lovers, I'm Cal Penn.
- [64:38]
Ed Helms
I'm Ed Helms.
- [64:39]
Kal Penn
Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Irsay, the Automatic Audible, and iHeart Audiobook Club.
- [64:49]
Ed Helms
Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from audible.
- [64:57]
Kal Penn
Listen to Earsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow Earsay and start listening on the free iHeartradio app. Today.
- [65:06]
Dr. Mark Brackett
The day begins at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club at Boston Logan Airport. You get the clam chowder. Mm in San Diego it's tostadas New York. Espresso martini.
- [65:15]
Kal Penn
It's 10am why not?
- [65:17]
Dr. Mark Brackett
It's the quiet before your next flight. The shower that resets your day. The menu that lets you know where you are.
- [65:22]
Kal Penn
This is access to over 1300 airport lounges and every Sapphire lounge by the club. And one card that gets you in Chase Sapphire Reserve, the most rewarding card.
- [65:31]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Learn more@chase.com SapphireServe cards issued by JP.
- [65:34]
Ed Helms
Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC.
- [65:36]
Scott Barry Kaufman
Subject to credit approval.
- [65:39]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first, there the last one.
- [66:00]
Ed Helms
Enjoy a Coca Cola for a pause that refreshes.
- [66:07]
Dr. Mark Brackett
You know what a girl's best friend is? Not diamonds. Her lawyers.
- [66:11]
Kal Penn
From executive producer Ryan Murphy comes a fiery new legal drama.
- [66:15]
Dr. Mark Brackett
It's our own boutique women representing women.
- [66:18]
Kal Penn
You can't afford to miss.
- [66:20]
Dr. Mark Brackett
Make it ring. Showtime, ladies. Stand up straight and breeze into that room like a storm no one saw coming.
- [66:30]
Kal Penn
Voodoo Original Series All Stars Fair. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers terms apply.
- [66:37]
Scott Barry Kaufman
This is an Iheart podcast.