End of an Era — Reflections on 11 Years of The Psychology Podcast w/ Annie Murphy Paul

Summary

The Psychology Podcast

Episode 478: End of an Era — Reflections on 11 Years of The Psychology Podcast w/ Annie Murphy Paul

Host: Scott Barry Kaufman
Guest/Interviewer: Annie Murphy Paul
Release Date: December 4, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this milestone episode, Scott Barry Kaufman celebrates the conclusion of his 11-year journey as the host of The Psychology Podcast. Science writer Annie Murphy Paul, who was also the show’s very first guest, returns to interview Scott about his biggest lessons learned and the major themes that emerged over nearly 500 episodes. Scott reflects on how the show has grown alongside the profound evolution of the podcasting landscape and distills seven central insights that defined the Psychology Podcast’s ethos. The conversation is rich with stories, favorite quotes, and meta-insights on science, creativity, personal growth, and the enduring power of meaningful connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Human Potential is Broader Than IQ or Standard Achievement

• Scott’s Core Theme: Human potential encompasses much more than traditional intelligence tests or society’s measures of achievement.
  • “Human potential is something that I view as not tied up with your intelligence necessarily as a sole factor…we're achieving based on standard metrics of success, you know, like achievement being you have to get accolades or likes on Instagram, you know, in order to really feel like you're achieving your human potential. I think a lot of people feel these days like they're not…” (Scott, 08:33)
• Podcast’s Legacy: The show consistently spotlighted overlooked forms of intelligence and success, promoting neurodiversity and the value of multiple perspectives.
• Notable Moment: Scott recalls his early guests from Penn—like Angela Duckworth—highlighting foundational research in motivation and intelligence. (07:00–07:20)

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2. Personality Traits are Malleable: Transformation is Possible

• Modern View of Personality: Traits are habitual patterns of states, not fixed attributes—change is possible through intentional interventions.
  • “All of us really go throughout the day being all sorts of different levels of a personality trait. So to say you’re an introvert doesn’t mean that you’re an introvert 24/7.” (Scott, 10:48)
• Intervention Research: Scott describes student experiments at Barnard College where students choose and work on changing a Big Five personality trait, with neuroticism being the most amenable to change. (11:59)
• Personal Growth: Scott reflects on his own shift to being less agreeable and more comfortable with himself over the podcast years.
  • “I've definitely become less agreeable…I just don’t feel the need to appease people so much anymore. I really am very connected to who I am…” (Scott, 14:27)
  • Memorable Quote: “[Carl Rogers] said, it’s not about being more than you are. It’s not about being less than you are…It’s about really getting in touch with who you truly are and really being comfortable with it.” (Scott, 19:50)
  • Timestamp: 14:27–15:08, 19:50

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3. Meaningful Change Relies on Habits, Systems, and Repeated Behaviors

• Habits Over Time: Long-lasting personal change isn’t about willpower but creating supportive environments and systems.
  • “If you want to make long lasting changes, it’s good to have a plan…it's good to know when you’re making progress and to have these kind of SMART goals.” (Scott, 22:33)
• Notable Guests: References to Art Markman, James Clear, and Tim Ferriss as experts who schooled Scott and his audience on the science of habits. (21:26–21:48)
• Personal Example: Scott shares how integrating exercise into his routine became a vital habit—motivated by both health and intrinsic satisfaction.
  • “It feels like you’re conquering something even if you don’t conquer anything else that day…” (Scott, 23:30–23:55)
• Growth Over 11 Years: Scott highlights lowering his own neuroticism (“maybe 50%”) and credits meditation, living in California, and intentional attitude shifts. (24:28–25:32)

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4. Creativity is Central to Human Flourishing

• Reframing Creativity: Creativity is not reserved for artists; it is a universal human capacity and a cornerstone of psychological fulfillment.
  • “I think creativity is everything…To be alive is a creative experience.” (Scott, 26:31–26:50)
  • “If I may modify Freud, it's love and creativity. Love and creativity are the things to live a good life.” (Scott, 27:19)
• Practical Creativity: Creativity means both divergent thinking (generating many possibilities) and identifying problems others may not even see.
  • “A big part of divergent thinking is being able to come up with the problem in the first place…” (Scott, 28:31)
• Podcast as Creative Expression: Scott sees the podcast itself as a creative act—figuring out authentic communication and science storytelling “on the fly.” (31:07)
• Media Landscape: Expresses concern over the dilution of expertise in the public sphere, where “everyone is an expert”—emphasizing the continued need for evidence-based science communication. (29:12–30:38)

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5. Emotional Intelligence, Vulnerability, and Self-Compassion for the Dark Side is Essential

• Integrating the ‘Dark Side’: Scott and Annie discuss learning from negative emotions and how self-acceptance enables growth.
  • “We have emotions that are uncomfortable, we have emotions that are comfortable…really understand how all these emotions really can be positive in certain contexts.” (Scott, 33:29)
• Memorable Quote: “The curious paradox is that once we accept who we are, then we can change.” (Carl Rogers, cited by Scott, 20:46)
• Guests on Emotional Intelligence: Mentions episodes with Todd Kashdan, Robert Biswas-Diener (“Dancing with your dark side”), Sharon Salzberg (“handshake practice with your beautiful monsters”), and Mark Brackett on emotional intelligence. (35:09–36:17)
• Scott’s Personal Reflection: “It’d be easy to…watch earlier interviews and just cringe…But I don’t think that’s the relationship I want to have with my prior self.” (Scott, 36:56)

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6. Relationships, Connection, and Social Context Profoundly Shape Well-being

• The Science: Social connection is repeatedly validated by research as essential for human flourishing (citing Sonja Lyubomirsky, Sharon Salzberg, Ben Ryan, Cassie Killam, and others).
  • “There’s so much exciting research on [connection]…It’s not just feeling a sense of belonging…but also…intimacy or relatedness where you and the other person, there’s a real mutuality there, a real growth. Mutual growth on both ends.” (Scott, 43:03–44:22)
• Distinction Between Belonging and Connection: Explains why belonging to a group isn’t enough without genuine, reciprocal relationship.
• Personal Aspect: Scott names friends who support him “unconditionally” and notes the joy and authenticity found in true close friendships. (45:18–45:50)

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7. The Ultimate Aim: Orienting Life Toward Growth, Meaning, and Connection—Not Just ‘Fixing’ Problems

• Humanistic Psychology Foundation: Rather than fixing deficits, the podcast has always strived to illuminate the pursuit of a life rich with purpose, growth, meaning, and self-transcendence.
  • “I really like the humanistic psychology way of thinking…focus on being over doing…what really makes us feel whole and alive…” (Scott, 46:33)
• Sailboat Metaphor: Scott’s “Transcend” book retools Maslow’s hierarchy—with growth as a purpose-driven voyage, rather than a static ladder.
  • “If you don’t have a clear vision of what port you want to sail to, you’re not going to be moving in that direction at all.” (Scott, 47:24)
• Personal Sense of Purpose: “I really want to empower all people to realize their higher potential. I mean, it’s really as simple as that…helping people get in touch with that unique center of their being.” (Scott, 48:25, 49:08)
• Podcast’s Legacy: These seven themes, Scott suggests, would be the “major clusters” if someone did a statistical factor analysis of all 478 episodes. (51:11)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Accepting Change:
  “The curious paradox is that once we accept who we are, then we can change.”
  — Scott quoting Carl Rogers (20:46)

• On Living Authentically:
  “I just want to be me, you know?”
  — Scott (39:03)

• On Creativity & Flourishing:
  “Love and creativity are the things to live a good life.”
  — Scott (27:19)

• On Self-Compassion for the Past:
  “I think that being able to…watch versions of me that were in development…but were also trying my best…with the limited knowledge I had at the time…just with a lot of love…”
  — Scott (37:13)

• On Life Purpose:
  “To enable all people to have that [aha moment of their potential] is…that’s my purpose.”
  — Scott (49:32)

• On the Podcast’s Impact:
  “Every single one of my guests…has significantly contributed to the canon of truth. And these patterns…are the message that I think, taken together…stand out to me.”
  — Scott (51:11)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:42–04:58 — Scott’s opening reflection and transition to Annie’s interview
• 07:00–08:33 — Early vision for the show and how the notion of “potential” expanded
• 10:48–14:16 — Personality traits as states; shifting personality through intention
• 21:26–23:30 — Habits and lasting change; learning from top guests
• 26:31–31:07 — Centrality of creativity and the podcast as an original creation
• 33:00–39:08 — The importance of emotional intelligence and the “dark side”
• 43:03–45:50 — Social connection, belonging, and growth in relationships
• 46:04–49:32 — Orienting toward growth, transcendence, and Scott’s personal purpose
• 51:11 — “Factor analysis” of themes, podcast’s main message

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Tone & Style

The episode is candid, warm, and deeply reflective—Scott is both proud and humble, and Annie brings gentle curiosity and humor. They frequently reference scientific research, personal anecdotes, and inside jokes from years of collaboration. Scott balances intellectual insight with self-deprecating honesty, ending the show on a note of gratitude to his audience and optimism for both his and their future journeys.

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Closing Reflections

“Thank you so much to everyone for making this podcast possible. And I did it all for you guys.”
— Scott Barry Kaufman (56:07)

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For Listeners New & Old:

This episode beautifully distills the spirit and wisdom of The Psychology Podcast: a celebration of curiosity, growth, and the deep possibilities inside every person. Whether you’ve never heard an episode before, or you’ve been listening for years, Scott and Annie’s conversation captures the “essence” of a show that changed how we think about human potential, one thoughtful conversation at a time.

Transcript

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[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode 478 of the Psychology Podcast. This is a very special episode. Well, since it's my last one in this form, I have been podcasting for 11 years now, practically every single week. And truth is, while I love everything I've learned along the way, I want to take this time to recenter to continue bringing additive value to my audience and to recharge myself. When I started this podcast November 16, 2014, there weren't many psychology podcasts in existence, if any. I was driven by my intrinsic passion for the field of psychology and wanted to put a microphone on the amazing psychological scientists I knew and shine a spotlight on their important work and how it applies to the lives of everyone. Far too often good scientific research hides in the shadows in peer reviewed publications and I wanted to get the word out there about all the incredible work going on. Now it's 2025 and everyone and their mother has a podcast and there are so many wonderful psychology related podcasts in existence now, which is great. So I've decided to take a step back. In this episode I am interviewed by the acclaimed science writer and author Annie Murphy Paul about the major lessons I've learned over the years doing this podcast. I think the seven major themes we discuss really do a great job capturing the essence of this podcast, which has always been more about being than doing. Creativity over efficiency, self actualization over over achievement, deep fulfillment over fleeting feelings of happiness, and self transcendence over self enhancement. Thanks from the bottom of my heart to all of you for making this podcast possible and for your support over the years. If you feel called, please write a review on itunes or wherever to let me know what this show has meant to you. I wish you all the very best in your own sacred journey of self actualization and self transcendence and look forward to sharing with you all the next steps in my own journey when it's time to, as Michaela Cole so eloquently put it, do not be afraid to disappear from it from us for a while and see what comes to you in the silence. So without further ado, I bring you Annie Murphy Paul and the seven biggest insights I've gleaned from doing this podcast. The Psychology Podcast.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Scott, the man of the hour. How are you doing?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Annie Murphy Paul.

This is episode 477 of the Psychology Podcast. You were on episode one of the Psychology Podcast in November 16th of 2014.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Wow. So how much has changed since then? Right?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, yeah, a lot. A lot has changed and a lot has not changed. I re listened to our episode and I was like, well, it still holds. It's still. It's great. You did, you did great. The science of growing smarter and maintaining, you know, high expectations.

It was really good. That's interesting.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah. Huh? Well, you've certainly grown and grown smarter probably in the 11 years since then. Right. It's certainly more knowledgeable.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Maybe my fluid intelligence has decreased my processing speed, but my crystallized intelligence has increased for sure. My wisdom.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah. Well, before we get into the. The seven insights that you've sort of pulled together from your 11 years of posting the psychology podcast, I just want to ask you, like, how are you feeling about this project, this long, long running project coming to an end?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I feel really proud of the.

The rich content that I was able to record that will last forever, you know, as long as we have digital capabilities and humanity. Yeah, I really, this was a really meaningful personal project of mine that started by me just wanting to put the microphone on my colleagues at Penn. And then, you know, one of some of my first guests was. It was you. We had Angela Duckworth as one of my first guests. And, you know, I just sort of went to my friends at Penn and I was like, hey, I would love to feature your research. I would really love to get the word out there about what you, what you're doing. It's so awesome. It really come from, you know, came from this place of a real intrinsic passion for the field of psychology. And I didn't really see anything like that at the time in the podcast area.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, you were early, you were early in the podcasting game. Now every now everyone has a podcast and you're like, it's, it's too, it's too common, it's too popular. I'm. I'm getting out.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

That's true.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

I'd like to know what you're doing next because you're obviously on the cutting edge.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Thanks. Well, whatever I do next will be something next level, and it'll be something even better than the psychology podcast.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Okay, well, let's start our look back at what you feel like you've learned by talking to all these incredible researchers across 11 years. And one of them, one of the points that you pulled out is certainly not something that you learned on the psychology podcast, because I know you were working in this area well before that. One of the seven insights that you pulled out of your 11 years of doing this podcast, Scott, is that human potential is far broader than standard metrics of IQ or achievement. And I know that's a theme of your work and your thinking for many years.

How did that play out in the conversations you had on the podcast?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I think that's definitely a major theme. Human potential is something that I view as not tied up with your intelligence necessarily as a sole factor. And I certainly don't think that the extent to which we're achieving. Human human potential is the extent to which we're achieving based on standard metrics of success, you know, like achievement being. You have to get accolades or likes on Instagram, you know, in order to really feel like you're achieving your human potential. I think a lot of people feel these days like they're not. They're not maximizing their potential if they're not getting enough as attention as the next person.

On social media. And, you know, my whole career has really been trying to expand our notions of what intelligence means as well what it means to be smart.

And include.

A lot of things in the neurodiversity spectrum.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Can you remember a particular conversation with a researcher that brought that point out for you?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Oh, boy. I'm going through my head that we're almost 500 episodes.

You're the first one in talking about how to be smarter. And your ideas of smarter weren't necessarily tied to iq. But I'm also just thinking about my own research. And I did a human. The Human Potential Lab was a little series within the psychology podcast. I did. And I talked about. I did a little lecture on IQ and intelligence and how we need to kind of go beyond the standard metrics. So it's been a common theme and that I've tried to interject into almost all my interviews.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yes, yes, yes. Well, this next point is one that's dear to my heart because, you know, I wrote a book about personality testing, the Cult of Personality, that was a cultural history and scientific critique of personality testing. And your point here is that personality traits are not fixed at transformation is possible and meaningful. And you've done work. Some of your own work is in the area of personality, Am I right?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, absolutely. So I really like the newer way of. We're kind of thinking about personality traits and variation like as density distributions. So all of us really go throughout the day being all sorts of different levels of a personality trait. So to say you're an introvert doesn't mean that you're an introvert 24 7. You know, you have your extroverted moments. These are. Personality really is just your habitual patterns of states. You know, traits are just habitual patterns of states. But you can change your personality by changing your habitual pattern of states. And that's something I want to make very clear to people. And there's some really exciting personality intervention research. I'm doing it right now with my students at Barnard College personality lecture where I have them choose a particular big five personality trait they want to Change. And I have them use some of these scientifically validated interventions to do a whole bunch of actions to, to try to change them. Interestingly enough, the one that the trait that's easiest to change is neuroticism.

Yes.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Oh, I'm surprised. I might have thought it would be introversion, that you could, you could sort of just change your way of interacting with people and push yourself to get out there a little bit more and end up being more extrovert.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

But neuroticism, maybe a different way of phrasing it in terms of the easiest to change, is that you see the largest effects over time.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Interesting.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

People can. There are a lot of things people can do to reduce their anxiety in life and to be more emotionally stable and have emotional regulation techniques. So things like meditation.

Reframe, cognitive reframing, cognitive reappraisal, cognitive distancing, imagining to yourself in a moment, well, you know, 50 years, will this matter? You know, how upset I'm getting right now? So there's a bunch of things there. But the hardest trait, I think this is interesting, the hardest trait that, that we've found to, to really change in the long run and that don't really have such large effects with these interventions is the trait openness to experience, which I think is the trait that's most related to creativity and human flourishing.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Do you have any ideas, Scott, about why that might be so difficult to change?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Well, I don't think part of that is that psychologists really haven't really done a great job coming up with the right activities and actions to really move the needle on that. We are much clearer on what you need to do if you want to be more extroverted or be more emotionally stable, More conscientiousness. More conscientious, I should say. Yes. And, and then, you know, if you want to be more agreeable or more.

Well, so a lot of my students want. A lot of people want to be less agreeable. That's another thing that a lot of people might want because they're too much of a people pleaser. So it depends on whatever direction you want to go there on that trait. But openness to experience is such a broad trait that it's one that I've studied a long time in my career and includes not only intellectual curiosity, but a deep appreciation of the arts and music and being able to get deeply absorbed in what you're doing. And it's associated with creativity. It's the number one best predictor of creativity. So it'd be important if we could figure out ways of teaching it, but I don't think that anyone's really nailed it yet.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah. Interesting. Well, let me ask you, Scott, do you think your pattern of personality traits has changed at all across 11 years of.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Oh, absolutely, yeah.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

How?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I've definitely become less agreeable.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Really?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Oh, yeah, totally.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

How is that? Or how is that? Why and how.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I mean, I listened to some of my earlier listening. My episode with you, you know, I was like a little lap dog, you know, you're amazing. You know, it's like, you know, I don't know. It's just like I don't. I don't feel the need to, like, appease people so much anymore. I really am very.

Connected to who I am, and I feel like I. I know who myself. I know myself a lot better than I did 11 years ago, and I don't really need other people to tell me who I am.

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[Annie Murphy Paul]

So in your case, becoming a little less agreeable has been a good thing.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

It sounds like it's been a very good thing. It's been a very good thing. Um, and you know, but not so much that, you know, one becomes an asshole and it's important not to, not to reduce it too much. Some people, they have this like, no, we're Mr. Nice Guy Attitude and then they kind of go the extreme and that's, everyone can tell that they overcompensated. You know, just there's, you know, there's just a good. Carl Rogers put it so well in one of his quotes, he said, it's not about being more than you are. It's not about being less than you are, you know, being self effacing. It's not about being more than you are and puffing yourself up, you know, it's about really getting in touch with who you truly are and really being comfortable with it. So, yeah, I think I've become more comfortable in my own skin probably.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yes. We love Carl Rogers, don't we?

I was grasping for one of his famous phrases at one time, talking to you, and you knew it by heart.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

The one about the curious paradox.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Can you say the curious paradox is that once we accept who we are, then we can, then we can change.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Right, Right. Yes. I love that. I find that to be very true. Well, what you said about how personality traits are really a pattern of states that we often occupy leads us into another point that you've drawn out of your 11 years of hosting the psychology podcast, which is long lasting, meaningful change often depends on habits, systems and repeated behaviors.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yes.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

What's your, what's your, what's your thinking about that?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

And we have had some really world class people on the show who've talked about that over the years. Like Art Markman talked about that very early on and how to change your habits. Yeah, I've had James Clear on my podcast, you know, definitely blown up. A lot of people after appearing on my podcast have blown up.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Curious. Curious. Yeah. I had Tim Ferriss on in the early days and he was really, he really talked about how he creates very systematic habits. And so there's something I've learned from a lot of my guests who are maybe a different kind of personality than me, but there's something I still learn from them. I fall more on kind of the dreamy openness to experience Camp Daydreamer. But there's something to be said and a lot to be learned from the kind of personality of the very like, you know, rigid consistency. You know, they're obsessed with consistency, they're obsessed with results and quantifying themselves and.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

And I think that if you do want to make long lasting changes, it's good to have a plan. I think that is very good. I've discovered that to be very beneficial in my own personal life. It's good to know when. When you're making progress and to have these kind of smart goals.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

As they're called.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, yeah. Can you think of a habit that you work to change, you know, over the past 11 years?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Oh, what a great question. Well.

Exercise.

Has been something I've gotten into, especially living in la.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's the only way to date in LA is to look good, whereas in New York it's. They care about my brain. There's a very, very clear difference between dating in New York and la. But anyway, you didn't come on the psychology podcast to talk about my dating.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Life, but I'm wondering what worked for you in terms of making exercise a regular habit.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's fun. It's, you know, it feels good to.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Intrinsic motivation.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. I mean, it feels, it feels like you're conquering something even if you don't conquer anything else that day. You know, if you get up, I get up. And I usually work up, out in the morning, and then I'm like, you know what? I don't need to do anything else. Like, I did something today. I mean, of course I. There's other things I need to do. But I'm saying, you know, at least I conquered one small thing today.

It feels good to be healthy and to feel vital and alive in terms of habits and personality.

It's a really interesting question. Like 11 years is kind of flashing before my eyes.

I think I've just really chilled out a lot. I mean, it might have been a lot of all the marijuana I did in Santa Monica on the beach.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

But you're less anxious, you would say, or less sad.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I'm so. I think I've lowered my neuroticism levels maybe 50%.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Wow.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Since 2014. Yes, since we started. Absolutely. I mean, when I lived in Philadelphia at the time at Penn, and I would. I would just walk around in a state of constant anxiety and panic attacks. And, you know, I. It's very. The idea of a panic attack is so foreign to me now, and it feels so far away. It doesn't feel like I. Let me put this way, it feels like I really can nip things in the bud more emotionally. Things don't spiral downward automatically anymore like they used to, and that was a big change.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah. I feel that I've seen that change in knowing you, Scott, that you're.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Is that right?

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Way more chill now. Yeah, yeah. Less. Less worried about things. More kind of going with the flow.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, well, it's true. I mean, I might even say that I'm pretty emotionally stable now. I wouldn't, you know, even. I wouldn't even say I'm neurotic anymore, which is fascinating.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. Considering that that was a big part of my identity for so many years.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah. Yeah. Was there something there that was especially helpful? Do you meditate? Do you?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Well, I do think living in California for five years.

And, yeah, getting into meditation and living in such a chill environment helped coming back to New York is an interesting experience for me.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

You really perceive a lot of differences between those two places, huh?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

They're like night and day.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Scott, I want to turn to.

Another point that you've drawn from your 11 years of hosting the psychology podcast that is, I know, very near and dear to your heart, which is creativity. And this idea that creativity is a really vital dimension of human flourishing. And it's been such a consistent thread in your work and your thinking. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about why you feel creativity is so important and so valuable.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I think creativity is everything to be able to bring into existence things that have not existed before.

We do that automatically just by existing. And I think to be alive is a creative experience.

And, well, Freud said love and work. Work and love are the cornerstones of humanness, I think. I don't think work is a cornerstone of humans. I think creativity is. I think it's. If I may modify Freud, it's love and creativity. Love and creativity are the things to live a good life. You know, feeling love for an activity you're doing or for a human, you know.

But really having that sense of aliveness usually is correlated with a sense of you're creating things of value in the world.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

What I like about your approach to creativity is that you don't seem to feel that it's Restricted to artists or writers or musicians, but that all of us humans are creative in a sense. Do you agree with that?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yes. I don't think creativity is limited to a particular field study. There might be some fields where we don't want intense creativity, like pilots or tax accountants. But.

Nevertheless, if we do view creativity as divergent thinking and the ability to come up with lots of solutions to a problem, maybe we do want that everywhere. We want the potential, the ability for divergent thinking, not just convergence thinking, which is the ability to come up with a one way answer and also with divergent thinking. A big part of divergent thinking is being able to come up with the problem in the first place.

Being able to see that there's a problem. There are a lot of problems that people don't even see as problems.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Wow, that's interesting.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I do think creative people are very good at picking up, at identifying problems. Yes. Steve Jobs was good at that.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, yeah. Did you feel that putting together your podcast was a creative endeavor?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Oh, absolutely. We set first. I mean, it was such a.

New thing in the podcast space.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Right.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

You know, I mean, there was a period of years where it felt very fresh and it felt very something special, you know.

Now like you said, everyone and their mother has a podcast and psychology content is everyone's a psychologist. I mean, I see so many people who are just so much more famous than I am on Instagram who are not legit psychologists, just talking about everything they know. We interest me enough. You know, it's interesting, when I, when I got into this and I created this, I wanted it to really show why expertise matters and really shine a spotlight on a lot of my, A lot of nerds who are, who are having their head down in the laboratory and are doing careful work. It feels like these days we're living in the age of everyone's an expert, if that makes sense. Everyone. Just all you have to have is confidence and that what you're saying is true and that's enough for others to really take you seriously. And it's no shade, but it's an observation.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Well, I think it's been. That's one of the great things about your podcast is that for those who want, those listeners who want evidence based, you know.

Experimentally generated evidence, you know, of, of what we're. Of these ideas behind what, these ideas that we're talking about yours. Your podcast has always been a place to go for that. That.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Well, thank you. I. That certainly was the intention.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, yeah. I wonder, you know, just back to this question. Of your podcast as a creative enterprise. Did you feel like you at first were figuring out how to talk to your guests, and then eventually you settled into like a kind of.

A pattern or, you know, a practice that. That at first you were doing your best to work out?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yes, I learned on the fly. You know, it's not like I went to podcasting school and there weren't that many other examples out there. I just committed myself to being myself, you know, my quirky, you know, self and. And authentic, you know, really matter to me. And I started, you know, if I may be so bold to say, I. I felt like I had a knack for it. I felt like it suited me, you know, to get out of the laboratory and have conversations and show my enthusiasm for science and psychology. I love being a public science communicator. And I, many years concomitant with my podcast, I wrote a popular blog at Scientific American, Psychology Today at first, and then Scientific American. So it all kind of fed into each other there. It was a really nice period of my life.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, I think it was. It's always been apparent that you were enjoying yourself. You know, you were very interested and engaged and eager to talk to these people. And I think that really showed, you know.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Thank you.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, it's always one reason that I've enjoyed your podcast.

Yeah.

So another point that you make about that you've pulled out of. Of what you've learned across hosting the psychology podcast is that emotional intelligence, vulnerability, and having self compassion for your dark side is important. And I would love to hear you talk about the dark side. I know you've done work on, well, you know, not so much the dark triad, but the light triad. Am I saying it right? Is it triad, triad, triad?

So I'm sort of curious what you might have to say about the dark side, why having self compassion for our dark side is important.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, I've done quite a lot of research in both the light triad and the dark triad. In order to validate our light triad, we had to do a lot of research on the dark triad. And I think that the point there is that you often see goodness in its contrast to the opposite. You know, I don't know if the concept of evil makes a lot of sense or if we can really define it, but in my attempts to.

See what the light side of personality is, yeah, we really took a deep dive into traits such as narcissism, Machiavellianism, manipulating others, psychopathy. When we talk about the dark side, we also think about things like just Depression or thinking about anxiety. The field of positive psychology calls them negative emotions and they contrast that with positive emotions such as contentment and joy and happiness. But I don't really like the artificial labeling of certain emotions as negative and others as positive. I think that we have emotions that are uncomfortable, we have emotions that are comfortable, you know, or some emotions that are ecstatic. You know, I like talking about the experience more and really understand how all these emotions really can.

Be positive in certain contexts. My colleague Todd Kashton and.

Robert Biswas Diener.

Wrote a great book together on the upside of your dark side. And Todd was on the early days on my podcast talking about the Dancing with your dark side I think is what we titled the episode. And yeah, and I really agree with that perspective that being able to. That there are many things we can do to.

Acknowledge, accept and have self compassion for the sides of ourselves that we may have shame over or the.

Or we. Or that make us feel uncomfortable. There's this idea of the handshake practice with your beautiful monsters as Sharon Salzberg talked about on my podcast. And she talked about her work from, from very. It's a very Buddhist concept.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

The idea is you should rip and.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Shay, you know, is in charge of that.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

They kind of hands in a cordial way with your monsters, your inner demons.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, you say, you know, I see you.

And a lot of these. Richard Schwartz, also Dick Schwartz, when he was on my podcast, we talked about his approach and there's this idea of, you know, you welcome them in. You, you ask them what do they want, you know, what, what kind of role are they trying to play in your inner, in your inner life or in your outer life as well. What they try to play in your. Either. And Mark Brackett, who was, who's been on a couple times, I believe, talking about dealing with your feelings and emotional intelligence, I would include as a component of all this.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, if I may ask, Scott, is what aspect of your dark side have you developed compassion for?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Oh, lots of aspects.

You know, I look at a lot of my prior suffering with, with a real compassionate lens.

I don't.

You know, there are things that would be so easy for me to like, watch earlier interviews and just cringe and it'd be easy to do that. It'd be easy to do that because there's lots of things I've done that are cringeworthy.

And I don't think that's the relationship I want to have with my prior self. So I think that being able to kind of watch versions of me that were in development, but were also trying my best.

With the limited knowledge I had at the time about limited wisdom. You know, we're always limited in our wisdom.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Right, right.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Is, you know, just with a heavy heart and just with a lot of love and, you know, like, really, I love that quirky guy. And I'm also glad that I learned a lot of lessons and I've also been able to, you know, step into new versions of myself.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, one of the words in that phrase that. That point that I. That I made was we talked about emotional intelligence. We talked about self compassion for the dark side. And the third point there was vulnerability. And something that's always struck me about you, Scott, is that you're very in tune with your vulnerability. You're very open about it. You share it, which I think is such a gift, you know, in a culture in which vulnerability is often covered over with a, you know, image of everything's. Everything's great, everything's. You know, I've got every. I've got. I'm on top of everything, you know, and I've. I've always felt like you've been brave enough to share that you're, you know, a vulnerable human being.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Like, I really appreciate that, Annie, you know, that. That means a lot to me. I'm not one of these, you know.

I'm not gonna name names, but, like, one of these, like, there's these polished, you know, self help gurus that just never seem to have, say, any. Everything is so perfect, you know, every hair is always in place perfectly. Everything they say is perfect. Everything they say, their audience. They get a million people being like, you're a genius that you said something, you know, so banal, but it's like, do you know what I mean?

[Annie Murphy Paul]

I do, I do.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

And I just. That's just not me. And. And I just want to be me, you know?

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah.

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[Scott Barry Kaufman]

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[Annie Murphy Paul]

So a sixth point that you pulled out of your 11 years hosting the podcast, Scott, is that relationships, connection and social context matter and continually shape our minds. So we've been talking a lot about sort of individual traits and states here, but relationships, they're so important. Could you talk a little bit about how that's. That theme has played out across your years hosting the podcast?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yes. The idea of relationships playing a huge role in our human flourishing and our contentment in life is backed by so much research. A lot of people from Sonia Lubomirsky, who's been on the podcast.

To again, Sharon Salzberg talking about love and connection and having open heart there. There's just so much exciting research on that.

My head's going through. There's so many people who have, you know, we had Ben Ryan who was on recently talking about the neuroscience of social connection, Cassie Killam, who's really talked about the importance of social connections. And. Yeah, so Cassie, yeah. Is rocking that. And yeah, I mean, it's been a really big theme repeating over and over again on this podcast that it's inescapable.

And it's not just feeling a sense of belonging, but it's also, I like to distinguish between belonging and a sense of belonging and a sense of intimacy or relatedness where you and the other person, there's a real mutuality there, a real.

Growth. Mutual growth on both ends. With belonging, you may feel like you belong to something, a group, an organization, a political, you know, thing or, and you go to a meeting and you dissent, you know, or say, I don't think I agree with the, the party line here. And they say you're out. You know, that's not a relationship. That's not a relationship. So, yeah, I think a lot of people are obsessed with belonging and they need to wrong. But, you know, like DEI bong, bong, bong. I think that, you know, not just belonging, but connection matters a lot too.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, yeah. Would you say that the, you know, all the research on the importance of relationships has affected you in terms of how you prioritize relationships or how you spend your time?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Oh, yes. I mean, for sure. I mean, I treasure my friends. I mean, of course. And.

There'S just nothing better than, than just getting together with your friends and who. The particular type of friend, you know, a friend who accepts all of you, you know, and I do have friends like that, you know, yeah. Shout out. Jordan Feingold. Dan Werner.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Unconditional.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Krista Striker. Yeah, there. Yeah, yeah. There are people in my life, you know, we're just. They just let me be me. Well, not only that, they admire it.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

And vice versa.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah. That's wonderful. Well, this last point that you've pulled out is just so. Scott. You know, it's such the essence of sbk. And.

So I'll read it here. The ultimate aim of psychological insight is not just to fix problems, but to orient life toward growth, meaning and connection. And this really makes me think of your. Your book Ascend. Right? Is that. Was that the title?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Transcend.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Transcend. Sorry. That was building on Maslow's work. Could you talk a little bit about that? I really. That was a strand of your work that I especially resonates for me.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Thanks. Thanks, Annie. Yeah. You know, questions of what is a good life have permeated my consciousness for a long time. I really like the humanistic psychology way of thinking about it. They really focus on being overdoing and focus on what really matters. You know, what really matters, what really makes us feel whole and alive, experientially alive, is what the humanistic psychologists are really interested in understanding and knowing. And. Yeah. In my book Transcend, I reimagined Maslow's hierarchy of needs from a static pyramid that he never drew to a sailboat. That's the sailboat metaphor. Needs the Kaufman sailboat metaphor, where you're moving in the ocean.

Or the sea of life and waves could come crashing down in you at any time. There could be winds. You don't know what's going to happen once you open that sail and you start moving towards your desired port. But if you don't have a clear vision of what port you want to sail to, you know, you're not going to be moving in that direction at all. And so it's very important to have a very clear vision of where you want to go, have a purpose and move with purpose. Live your live. Live your purpose.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yes.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Day in and day out. Stay true to your values and.

Also acknowledge that we have basic needs, that sometimes we may have our days where we need to close that sail and focus on just plugging the holes in the boat, and that's okay. And that's okay.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

You seem like someone who's very much living his purpose, Scott. I mean, would you.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Thanks, Annie.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

If you had to put your purpose in a sentence, how would. What would you say?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Well, I really want to empower all people to realize their higher Potential. I mean, it's really as simple as that. There's nothing more exciting to me than when I have a coaching client. I created a form of coaching in recent years called self actualization coaching, where we really help people get in touch with the most alive, unique, creative center of their being, is the way I put it. It's also.

That's how Karen Horney put it. One of my favorite psychoanalysts, neo psychoanalysts who really challenged Freud. But yeah, so I think really helping people get in touch with that unique center of their being. And there's nothing more exciting to me than when.

I see someone have this aha. Moment of wonder and awe within themselves at what they already have within, or they see a higher possibility for themselves. And maybe they didn't see in themselves or maybe other people didn't see it in them. But yeah, they see it in themselves. And I think that to enable all people to have that is, you know, that's my purpose.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, yeah, that's. And that has been from your very first. What was ungifted, your first book.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

That was my first book for a general audience. Yeah.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

I mean, that was really about, as you said, recognize being able to recognize strengths and talents in oneself even when other people haven't, you know, really powerful.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

That's true. So I feel seen.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

You feel seen. So looking back across 11 years of the podcast, Scott, I know you were saying like there's been so many guests. Are there a few moments that stick out to you? Some something that a guest said that really is still ringing in your ears or that you, you know, you find yourself repeating or remembering? Can you think of any moments that really stand out?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

You know, look, after so many episodes, what starts to remain are these threads that we discussed today. I'll be honest, the individual people, you know, as. As much as we want to think all of us are going to. It's our name that, you know, our monument's going to last. Is that really what's most important? You know, it's the fact that I, you know, we've had, I've had over the years, so many, I would say every single one of my guests over four. You know, I don't want to single out anyone here in this, in this, the ending of this, of this episode. I want to make the point that they've all significantly contributed to the canon of truth. And these patterns that we talked about today, I think are you really nailed it. These seven.

Really form the clusters. If you did a factor analysis of all the episodes which is a nerdy statistical technique. These are the major themes this podcast has covered and that stand out to me.

As the message that I think taken together from everyone, the collective knowledge of 470. Well, I guess this is episode 478 of the Psychology podcast.

[Doug (Liberty Mutual)]

Wow.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Wow, that's a lot. That's a lot. Well, I want to ask you, Scott, about what's next for you, but not necessarily in terms of specific projects. I want to know what are you excited about? What do you want to find out Still, I know there's so many, so much left to be discovered. What, what are you excited about and thinking about in terms of the future?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Well, one thing is taking my self actualization pro coaching program in new directions. We're continuing to train coaches and we have a six month certification program. But I want to branch out into other areas like education, having teachers view themselves as self actualization coaches and managers. So in the business world, I'm getting increasingly interested in the future of leadership and particularly human centered leadership. And I have a edited book I'm doing with Chris Shipley coming out next year on the future of human. Of leadership. Yeah. Really? In the age of AI and in the age of such uncertainty, what does it look like where we keep our humanity, you know?

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yes.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

And I also been really getting into mentalism and magic. And so I'm still trying to figure out ways of incorporating my mentalism burgeoning skills into my keynote speeches and performances and things to really inspire people to realize the depths of their human potential.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Yeah, you know, I'm not sure I know what mentalism is exactly. Could you elaborate on that a little bit?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's mind reading.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Mind reading. Oh, okay.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

No. Well, you know, the field of mentalism is a sub branch of magic that includes your ability to make predictions about what someone's going to think, your ability to read their minds of what they're currently thinking, and the ability to influence what they're going to think and influence. So it's those three areas now is the mind reading. Literally you're going in their brain, you're reading their thoughts? No, but there's deep, complex methods and various things that you combine to give the appearance of real mind reading and real magic. And at the end of the day, the most exciting thing is being able to create a sense of awe and wonder in people and let them see that things that seem impossible are actually possible. And that's the thing that excites me the most about the field of mentalism.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Oh, that's so cool. Well, the podcast interviews continue to be available after the year.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

The Psychology podcast will still be available, the whole back catalog. And what happens to the feed and what happens next to the podcast will be revealed at some point.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Well, Scott, it's been such a pleasure talking to you about your 11 years hosting the Psychology podcast. I want to congratulate you on the achievement of all those years of wonderful interviews that you've been bringing to people. And thank you for allowing me to be your first guest and your last guest. It's been a real honor for me.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Thank you, Annie. Thank you for being my first and last guest of this iteration of life. You may be a guest.

You may be the first guest of something else. You never know.

But life is a funny thing. It's. It's simultaneously growth oriented and cyclical, if you know what I mean.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Well, the ascending spiral, that's the, the that I like you keep returning to the same things but hopefully at a more.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

That's right. And that's, that's, you know, maybe some people argue that's multiple lives as well and not just the, the point of this life, but that may take us to another realm or for a different podcast.

Annie, it's been such an honor talking to you today and I love these themes. They really do a great job capturing the spirit and essence of the Psychology podcast. And I want to really thank the listeners who made it all possible for so many years who've supported it. And yeah, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much to everyone for making this podcast possible. And I did it all for you guys.

[Annie Murphy Paul]

Thanks, guys.

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[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Briefs. Oh.

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There the last one.

And enjoy a Coca Cola for a pause that refreshes.

Make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. A gift that tells a story and shows you know theirs that doesn't just sparkle but speaks. From new festive charms to forever rings and personal engravings, this season give a gift that's perfectly theirs. Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship, or a heartfelt gift for a family member, say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop [e-mail] or visit your closest Pandora store. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.