The Psychology Podcast: How Mindsets Shape Reality w/ Dr. Alia Crum

Host: Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Guest: Dr. Alia Crum
Release Date: November 20, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman speaks with Dr. Alia Crum, a pioneer in the field of mindset psychology. They explore how our mindsets—the lenses through which we interpret information—can fundamentally shape our reality through psychological, behavioral, and physiological mechanisms. Together, they discuss Dr. Crum’s transformative research on the placebo effect, stress mindsets, physiological responses to beliefs about health, and the growing body of work on metacognitive mindset interventions. The conversation weaves through personal stories, landmark studies, and the power (and responsibility) we have in how we choose to view ourselves and the world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Influences & Discovering Mindset Science

• Background: Dr. Crum shares her unique upbringing deeply influenced by meditation, aikido, and mind-body retreats, thanks to her father’s work (06:58).
• Academic Influences: The happiness course at Harvard taught by Tal Ben-Shahar was pivotal, not because it introduced her to new ideas, but because it validated her background and helped her feel she belonged in academia.

  "That class, you know, it didn't necessarily open my mind to things... But it made me feel at home. It made me feel like I belonged." – Dr. Crum (08:22)

2. Seminal Research: Placebo Effects and Exercise

• Inspired by Ellen Langer and Ann Harrington, Dr. Crum studied placebo effects in health and exercise (09:05).
• Hotel Housekeepers Study: Changing beliefs about physical activity changed both subjective and objective health outcomes (10:05).

  "...if we could make them aware...that shift in mindset didn't just change how they felt, but also had measurable changes on their blood pressure, their body fat, their weight, and so forth." – Dr. Crum (10:50)

3. “Mind Over Milkshakes” – Belief Alters Physiology

• Dr. Crum discusses her landmark 2011 study: participants believed they were drinking either an indulgent or a diet milkshake (identical in reality).
• Result: Perceived indulgence changed the physiological hunger response (ghrelin levels) far more than the low-calorie label—even though it was the same drink (12:35–15:51).

  "...when people thought they were consuming an indulgent shake, their body responded as if they had had more food." – Dr. Crum (14:35)

• The findings showed that mindset can override physical calorie content in the body’s response.

4. Stress Mindsets: Measurement and Impact

• Dr. Crum outlines her development of the Stress Mindset Measure (SMM), which captures whether people view stress as enhancing or debilitating (25:21).
• Most people score below the midpoint—i.e., they generally believe stress is harmful, except for groups like Navy SEALS (26:40).
• High SMM scores: Linked to adaptive physiological responses (moderate cortisol), increased engagement, and a greater willingness to receive feedback during stress.

  "People who believe...that stress can be enhancing, they show more adaptive cortisol response. And...more willingness for feedback." – Dr. Crum (28:06)

5. Dirty vs. Clean Discomfort & Misconceptions

• Differentiates between the discomfort of stress itself (“clean”) and additional suffering created by negative judgments about stress (“dirty”) (33:28).
• A stress-is-enhancing mindset does not mean seeking stress or seeing every stressor as good, but recognizing the potential for growth from unavoidable stress.

6. Metacognitive Mindset Interventions

• Dr. Crum explains her new approach: encouraging people to consciously choose mindsets based on their usefulness, not on dogmatic “truth” (41:06).

  "By meta mindset, what we mean...is we inspire people to adopt...the mindset that stress can be enhancing not because they're manipulated into it...but because they choose consciously that that mindset is a more useful one to have." – Dr. Crum (43:22)

7. Mindsets about Illness: Cancer as an Opportunity, Catastrophe, or Manageable Condition

• Research into cancer patients shows three dominant mindsets: catastrophe, manageable, or opportunity (46:23).
• Mindsets are powerful: patients with identical cancer severity can interpret their illness in radically different—and consequential—ways (48:01).
• Intervention: Brief exposure to diverse survivor stories can shift mindsets and improve health-related quality of life (49:20).

8. Learning Genetic Risk Alters Physiology

• A study conducted at Stanford: participants learned (sometimes accurately, sometimes not) about their genetic risk for low exercise capacity (53:33).
• Result: The belief about genetic risk, not actual genotype, led to significant physiological changes in performance metrics (57:54).

  "When people thought they had the risk allele, they converted oxygen into CO2 in a far less efficient rate... But the physiological results were, were really interesting. And it was fully shaped by belief, not their genetics risk." – Dr. Crum (57:54)

9. Mindsets at the World View Level

• Collaboration with Jar Clifton on mindsets about the world: Abundant vs. Scarce, Dangerous vs. Safe, etc.—and how these beliefs shape not just well-being, but personality and engagement with life (67:55).

  "...our beliefs are omnipresent, right? Because we never leave the world." – Dr. Crum (69:07)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Beliefs and Reality:

  “The world, your beliefs aren’t just sort of a reflection of reality as it is… You kind of sit back and see the kind of absurdity of it all." – Dr. Crum (03:05)

• On the Placebo and Potential:

  “That was really important...realizing actually the direction in which the belief had an effect.” – Dr. Crum (16:00)

• On Stress Mindsets and Motivation:

  “If you think that stress is bad for you...you’re stressed about the stress and you’re upset that you’re stressed...the mindset itself just made the stress worse.” – Dr. Crum (28:15)

• On Choosing Useful Mindsets:

  “You choose, right? Like, how do you want to choose to view stress?...do you want to view it as debilitating or do you want to view it as enhancing?” – Dr. Crum (43:21)

• On Cancer Mindsets:

  “You have people who have stage 4 metastasized cancer who believe it’s an opportunity...and you have people with stage one...that feel like their whole life’s over. And here again, these mindsets matter.” – Dr. Crum (48:04)

• On Genetic Risk Information:

  “They converted oxygen into CO2 in a far less efficient rate...it was fully shaped by belief, not their genetics risk.” – Dr. Crum (57:54)

• On Self-Fulfilling Prophecies:

  “Is our genetic expression...the way we think, a self-fulfilling prophecy on our genetic expression?” – Dr. Kaufman (65:29)

• On Global Mindsets:

  "What Jer [Clifton] is doing is looking at what are our core beliefs about the world, Right? Like, do you believe the world is dangerous or safe? Do you believe the world is abundant or scarce?" – Dr. Crum (67:55)

Important Timestamps

• [06:58] – Dr. Crum’s unique childhood and sense of belonging at Harvard
• [09:05] – Early research on exercise, placebo, and the Hotel Housekeepers Study
• [12:35] – "Mind Over Milkshakes": How belief changes ghrelin response
• [25:21] – Development and items of the Stress Mindset Measure
• [28:15] – How mindset changes cortisol and engagement under stress
• [33:28] – Dirty vs. clean discomfort; misconceptions of stress mindset
• [41:06] – Metacognitive approach and mindset interventions
• [46:23] – Mindsets in cancer: catastrophe, manageable, or opportunity
• [53:33] – Learning genetic risk: how information alone changes physiological reality
• [67:55] – Expanding the study of mindsets to beliefs about the entire world

Tone & Flow

The discussion is warm, personal, and intellectually invigorating. Dr. Kaufman and Dr. Crum’s longstanding friendship brings an open, trusting energy. The conversation is a blend of academic rigor, accessible explanations, and authentic reflection, making complex science feel relevant for listeners’ lives.

Takeaways

• Mindsets are powerful, measurable, and changeable. They directly impact not only how we interpret and experience stress, illness, and health behaviors but also induce real physiological changes.
• Choosing and flexibly adopting useful mindsets is a skill. Interventions work best when they empower people to select mindsets that serve them, rather than prescribe “the truth.”
• Mindset research is extending outward—from beliefs about self to beliefs about health, illness, genes, and the whole world.
• Awareness of mindsets allows for more conscious agency in shaping our reality; it’s not about denying reality, but about choosing how to relate to it.

Closing Thoughts

Both Dr. Kaufman and Dr. Crum reflect on their shared academic journey, the joys and uncertainties of research, and their commitment to using their work for “the world.” The episode’s sentiment is one of curiosity, humility, and hope: we may not control all of reality, but we have astonishing power to shape how we meet it.

This summary captures the heart of the episode for those curious about how beliefs—about everything from milkshakes to mortality—shape our moment-to-moment reality and long-term well-being.