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The Psychology Podcast
How To Help Children Thrive in the Age of Uncertainty w/ Dr. Tovah Klein
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- [00:00]
Dr. Tova Klein
This is an iHeart podcast.
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Dr. Tova Klein
It's a new season and every morning.
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Dr. Tova Klein
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Dr. Tova Klein
When I was in college, I lived in a big dorm. Like there were probably 30 of us on one very long hall, one bathroom. I don't know how we did it and at the end of the year, we had like a pizza party. We're all freshmen. And it was all women on that floor. It was like male, female by floor. And they went around, people went around and said, let's talk about first impressions. What were our first impressions? And people were laughing and they said, who did we get the most wrong? And then everybody seemed to agree. Tova. We got Tova the most wrong. And I was totally taken aback. I said, why? They said, we all thought you were kind of standoffish and snobby. And I was like, really? Why? And they said, because it took us time to learn that you spent a lot of time kind of watching, just watching before you kind of started to befriend us and go along with us. And I thought, oh yeah, that's happened my whole life.
- [03:33]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast where we share with you the latest science of human potential from scientists who are doing cutting edge research that can help you self actualize and realize the best version of yourself. I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, a cognitive scientist, author, coach and public speaker on human potential. In this episode we have Barnard College professor Dr. Tova Klein on the show. Dr. Klein is director of the Barnard College center for Tador Development where she aims to understand children's social and emotional development, parental influences on children's development, and experiences that parents have raising children. In this episode we discuss her groundbreaking research and new book, raising how to Help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. A key takeaway of this conversation is the importance of being a safe anchor for your children and conveying to them that you are there for them no matter what, that you accept them, whoever they are, and that you can provide a sense of safety even in their worst moments. This episode has a number of really key insights and actionable takeaways as a parent to be a good parent and also to be an emotionally secure adult. So without further ado, I bring you Dr. Tova Klein. Dr. Klein, welcome to the Psychology podcast.
- [04:48]
Dr. Tova Klein
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
- [04:50]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, thank you. I'm excited for you to be here. You've had such a long and very notable career. Tell me a little bit about some the highlights. So you are director of a child development lab at Barnard College, Columbia, right?
- [05:05]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, I am at. I've been at Barnard College now for 29, going on 30 years and I run a program called the center for Toddler Development. I'm a professor in psychology, so I feel like I've had it all. It's actually been the beauty of my careers that I get to be with toddlers and observe them every day, probably thousands at this point. And I get to be with college students. So as, you know, teenagers to young adults. I have parents, a wonderful staff. So I have like a whole range of people and I get to do like everyday development and I get to do. The other piece of sort of my life on the clinical psych side is more traumatic events and real significant life stressors that people experience. That that's a good two together. Yeah.
- [05:54]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
It's been a big part of what you're known for.
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Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, yeah.
- [05:57]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I mean, because you've spent even going back to 9 11. Right. Didn't you study one of the classic studies that we all learned in intro to psych class? You know, you, you learned about, you know, the impact of that on people's memories and their traumatic, you know, their, their trauma. Right.
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Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah. So I did a study after 911 of young children who had witnessed, been witness to the towers, to the what age group? So these were all children under five. The oldest were six. So six and under. And it really came out of my training in graduate school, was heavily in child trauma and adult trauma. And there I was running this center and I was a new mom. I had a. What did I have? A one and a half and a three year old. And I was Professor Barnard. And then 911 happened. And it really came out of that kind of collegial. I had met this woman, she did a lot of work in trauma at Columbia, in the school, social work. And we called each other and just said, what are we going to do? What are we going to do for those families? And that's how it started. And we went downtown about six weeks after the collapse and started doing focus groups with families to say, can you tell us what you witnessed, what happened and what was it like for your children? That was our question. And then interestingly there was, you know, as research goes, there are a lot of researchers wanting to do research in New York City. And we met, you know, in a group of people who wanted to study children. We didn't want overwhelm families. And repeatedly people said to us, oh, you want the children under six, they're all yours. We're not interested. And that's the big gap in the literature. So we then did a study of the younger children. Yeah. And it was just fascinating.
- [07:43]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
What's some of the main findings?
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Dr. Tova Klein
Well, I'm going to stress the positive findings because what your podcast is, but also my work and my frame on things which is I was very interested in how children create safety because, yeah, that was a horrible thing to witness. Right. And it was scary and adults were scared. But you know what, they all got to safety. They were all okay, at least physically. And I was very interested in the children who within time, not that they were life was perfect, but were able to like get grounded again. And the parents were able to, no matter how hard it was. And so we did play interviews with the children where we gave them blocks and we had to give them airplanes and ambulances, but we also gave them animals so they could play with whatever they wanted. And we asked them very open endedly, can you show us what you saw that day or what happened? We used whatever terms the parents use, like maybe they called it the big fire or the sad day. We just followed whatever the parents had told us the children had already said. So we weren't introducing anything new. And on the one hand, children would tell us people were hurt, people died. On the other hand, they would very much tell us people were safe. They would build these buildings. It was incredible. They would build buildings and then they'd take their hands and they'd go, oh, this is a safe building, it's low. And then they'd take a plane and they'd say, oh yeah, it's safe. Then you know, we might say, well, oh, so who was in that building? Oh, the people in the big buildings. They ran to the safe buildings. So they. The more I saw children creating safety, the more I thought, I wonder how this happens. Yeah, because that's what you need to survive. It's not that bad things aren't going to happen. They are going to happen. That's a guarantee in our lives, in our children's lives. But the question is, how do you get regrounded and know that you can be safe even when the world is not feeling so grounded at the moment.
- [09:43]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
What do you, what do you think of George Bonanno's research on resilience? He finds that people tend, adults tend to be a lot more resilient than they think they're going to be.
- [09:52]
Dr. Tova Klein
Right.
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
You know, do you find that same thing with young children?
- [09:57]
Dr. Tova Klein
Well, you know, it's interesting you asked that because I have doubts more about parents. So. And you probably know in the trauma literature, people who are caregivers, so that could be parents of children or maybe somebody who's got some disability or sick or elders under really stressful or traumatic conditions, you know, situations, they're going to suffer more and it makes sense, like to get out of a burning building for myself is one thing, but to get out with somebody who's in a wheelchair or who's bed bound is a really like next level responsibility. And that's what parents are. And so in ways they're more. They're much more vulnerable because they're not only responsible for themselves, they have people dependent on them. On the other hand, I think what we find over and over is that people, if they have community, if they have people to turn to, they can recover more than we give them credit for. And the reason that children can do okay is that parents buffer. That's so much what my new book is about. Right?
- [11:05]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [11:06]
Dr. Tova Klein
What is this buffering that parents do naturally? And so that's, I think, the positive. And the book really came out of this idea that the world's gonna always be uncertain. I mean, uncertainty is here. Yes, Right. But what's the strength that can come of it when children, whether they're 2 or 12 or 18, when they have somebody to ground them? I call it anchoring. And contain being a container. So, you know, when you're not alone and you build that sense of, I'm not alone, this is hard, but I'm not alone. That really propels children forward. And we know it propels our teenagers forward too. Like they push away, get out of here, I hate you. And they don't say it nicely. And then, hey, are you there? Because I'm upset and I want you to listen for a while. So, you know, it's really about steadying parents, I think. And I think Banana's work is really important that, you know, with the right supports in place or with the right inner trust, resilience is definitely possible. And that's what parents are building every day.
- [12:16]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes. You call it an incubator.
- [12:18]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, yeah.
- [12:21]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I had trouble. You said there, you said there are two aspects of resiliency. And the one is the parent child relationship incubator. I was having trouble finding the second one in that chapter.
- [12:31]
Dr. Tova Klein
Well, what I talk about is that the parent child interaction being sort of this incubator every single day, sort of typical interactions have this I call anchoring. That's the, like, I'm your secure base. Right. And then this container, I can handle your emotions.
- [12:49]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
You can show the container and the anchor aspects.
- [12:52]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah. You can show me you're good, you're bad, you're rotten, you name it, and I'm going to be able to handle it.
- [12:59]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Gotcha.
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Dr. Tova Klein
Right. And I'm not going to be afraid of it. I'm not going to shame you. I'm not going to scream at you. There may be some limits on, you know, you can't really kick me or all the furniture, but we can go outside and you can find something to kick. So it's that idea of being their base, that anchor for them that really matters.
- [13:21]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Gotcha. I want to circle back to trauma for a second, you know, and the long lasting effects of trauma, especially in childhood. How robust is that correlation between childhood trauma and the way it affects your brain and the way that you process the world as an adult? How strong is that correlation, really?
- [13:41]
Dr. Tova Klein
Well, it can be very strong. If a child, for example, is not believed, let's say it's some kind of abuse, sexual abuse, or just bad things happen that people want to quickly brush under the carpet, even if they're known. So what we know is that when children aren't believed, they're not listened to, they're not supported. Anytime we have to keep something in a secret, it's potentially going to bubble up because it's there, it's really there. And I have to say, I almost got into my interest in child trauma. I always had that. You know, we didn't call it trauma, we said abuse or violence or when bad things happen. But because in graduate school I worked with adults who were coming with this set of behaviors or problems that they were reporting that turned out to be really related to their childhood traumas and they didn't have support to process them. So you can still do that as an adult. But if the stories you tell told and the stories you have to tell yourself force you to push this thing aside, then children often feel bad, they feel responsible. I must be really bad. I must be a terrible person. And so you can then rework that as an adult. But someone has to listen to you and understand you that we're all complicated. And that's a piece of you. Just one piece.
- [15:12]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, yeah. And then I'm fascinated with all the research on attachments, attachment patterns. There's some sort of debate. What do we call these things? They're not styles, they're all in continuums. And then our Chris Fraley's research, you know. Yeah. Just showing that like, there's no such thing as a securely attached person. It's all, we're all just like on a continuum of the two axes, avoidant and anxious. And we're just secure to the extent to which we score low in these two dimensions of personality. So, you know, I just. Because you do work on attachment and you, you've thought a lot about that. What is that correlation? Like, you know, because I, I've seen some research showing it's a lot weaker than, you know, childhood attachments patterns and adult attachment patterns are a lot weaker than people tend to think. There's not a great continuity there. What do you find in your research?
- [16:07]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, so, you know, it's an interesting question because as you know, something goes from the research realm to a popular realm and there's often interpretations that I would, let's call them loose. Right. Researchers were doing that original research in a very scientific experimental paradigm. People still do, but then it springs into our more common knowledge and I think both gets watered down and maybe misunderstood. So if you look at like the longitudinal studies, like you take Srof's work, you know, really important work, followed a very high risk, potentially cohort of children and families living in pretty low income and poverty situations. He followed them over a long time and he finds that secure base is very important. So having that security of attachment. But where I think it gets misinterpreted is the, this idea that, well, however attached you are at a year, when that's measured is life where relationships are dynamic, relationships shift. And so what we do is we say, oh, today's not a good day. That's not a secure attachment. And that's just not how it works. It really is about, do I have a caregiver, particularly for younger children, do I have a caregiver who I can trust, who gets it right a good amount of the time, shall we say? Not perfect. None of us are, nor should we be, for sure. Right. But then I can internalize this sense of me as a very young child, as I'm a good person, I'm okay, I'm going to be okay in the world. And that then keeps getting reinforced over time in other relationships. But it starts as a base. And again, you can go back and correct that base. I think those are some of the misnomers that people have. Like this is a static thing and relationships aren't static. And nor are we as people because if we were, none of us would go to therapy. Why would we bother? We say, oh, we're doomed.
- [18:14]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [18:15]
Dr. Tova Klein
And we're not doomed. You know, we're always works in progress and children are too.
- [18:20]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. I mean, your, your, your, your work has touched so many parents and even I, I believe Amy Schumer, you've touched as well. Right.
- [18:29]
Dr. Tova Klein
How did that connect? Yeah, well, during the pandemic. So our program, which is for one and a half to three Year olds. Well, first we went on Zoom, which I never really thought we could do, but we did. Our teachers were fantastic. We did this fantastic, very emotionally connected program with the children. And then we opened in the fall of 2020 on Barnard's beautiful campus when Barnard was closed. So no students, almost nobody, except some facilities people, some security people in the Barnard Toddler center in a beautiful tent outside. And she was one of the parents who had signed up for that year and came.
- [19:10]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I see. Interesting.
- [19:11]
Dr. Tova Klein
So we had about total just 10 children at a time, because we have different groups, but we had about 40 families that year because I thought who would trust their child in the fall of 2020 to a program. But for this group of families, people were like, hey, I need to get out. If you remember how closed in we were at that point.
- [19:30]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I do, yes.
- [19:31]
Dr. Tova Klein
And my child needs to be with other children, that my child needs to be out of the house. And we were outside and we were masked, which seems crazy now because these are little kids. And so she. She and her husband and child came for that program. And we have stayed in touch, you know, as he's gotten older. And like, many of the relationships that come out of my work, they just, you know, they go a lifetime. And she offered. She. I was writing a book. She actually said, I nominate myself to write the forward. And I was like, seriously? And then she was like, oh, you didn't ask for nominations. But, you know, when I went back to her and said, were you serious? She said, absolutely.
- [20:08]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
That's so funny.
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Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah.
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I mean, she's made it public that her husband's on the autism spectrum. So obviously I want to ask, like, if their child seems to be nerdivers at all.
- [20:18]
Dr. Tova Klein
All I can say is he's a great kid. And, you know, that year, I'm so grateful to any parent who believed in us that year, you know, Amy and 39 other families, like, and all the children separated eventually. Like, we, you know, our philosophy is that you have parents there and then you have them slowly move back. And I said to my program director and exalt, I'm like, how are we going to separate people in a pandemic who've been huddling at home? Yeah, but we did it. And we always sort of cue into the child, like, what does the child need? I can take a crying parent out or an upset parent, but I want to hopefully figure out what a child needs. And every. Every child was able to separate and play and be friends. And that class, actually, that she was in, they still get together, a group of them, like six or seven of them. I think, you know, that's partly the work of our center and much the work of people in a pandemic. And it was scary and they stayed. They've stayed friends.
- [21:21]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
It's wonderful.
- [21:25]
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- [24:28]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I am very into my own research is on neurodiversity. So I'm just curious how many kids that you've worked with in the center that you run are neurodivergent and sort of how do you deal with that any differently than others in their child development?
- [24:46]
Dr. Tova Klein
So I mean, let's face it, toddlers are neurodivergent by nature. Yes. As an age group we say we have a very wide range of what we would say. I've seen that before. Or that's not atypical. Right. Because as you know, we live in a world where we, you know, whether it's teachers or psychologists, which we are, or other professionals, tend to have a very narrow view of what's like okay or normal or typical. And I would say we've got a pretty broad view on that. But when I'm concerned about a child really not showing progress or in some way, you know, after they separate, am I seeing movement forward? We meet with parents, just say, look, this is what we're seeing. Are you concerned? And if they're not, then I might say to them, you know, in a threes program, just keep your eye on this. Now if I think a child is autistic, not autism spectrum disorder or some other sort of lesser thing, but I will say to parent, you know, I think the sooner that we get a kind of understanding of this and the sooner you get help, that's what the data shows us. So I sometimes push parents, but 2 year olds are so all over the place and they start to come together as they get old. Come together meaning those, those very vastly varied behaviors or development, you know, whether it's language development, social development, tends to narrow as children get older. So on the one hand we know the earlier you intervene for certain children, the better. And on the other hand, lots of children sort of get on A path. So it's always a little tricky, like is this something we should be concerned about or is this who this child is and they're gonna, you know, walk a path that works. And so it's a little of both people.
- [26:45]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Some parents can be very quick to medicate.
- [26:47]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah.
- [26:48]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
At a very, very young age. And that's a whole can of worms.
- [26:51]
Dr. Tova Klein
You know, very much. Particularly in those early elementary years. You know, I do private work with parents and they're often hearing from schools, particularly private schools. Well, if he's really not going to be on medication, this probably isn't the right school for him, you know, and then I will work with them around. Well, you know, is it that it's not the right school and do we want to look for something else or do you want to medicate A six year old, an eight year old? Yeah, I mean, we live in a culture certainly that is quick to medicate. And I think if we could reframe things a little and say, well, what kind of environment would really support this child's creativity? Curiosity. You know, I tell people often about a child, well, if you were raising her on a farm, all would be well. I mean, imagine you get up, there'd be all those chores, there'd be the animals, she could run with the horses. And they say, yeah, but we're not raising her in a farm. I say, I know, but do you want to like, try to figure out what she needs to be her or do you want to go this other route? And it's hard to know sometimes what's the right thing. I just always wish people would have a broader perspective on what is someone's strengths and how can we build an educational environment around that and not be. Be so quick to judge.
- [28:20]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
We covered neurodiversity a little bit, but I'm also really interested in highly sensitive children. And I'm wondering how much you've interacted with that literature and do you clearly notice it in some kids that they have that temperament?
- [28:35]
Dr. Tova Klein
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think you see this often in children at all ages who, you know, somebody says, oh, they're very reticent or they're shy or whatever label that, you know, again, we're quick to put labels. And I'm always saying to my students, watch that child who you think is shy or whatever, inward in some way. And I want you to describe to me what you see in that child. And they'll say, this is really hard to do because you have to really then cue in to how are they not just where are they looking, but how are they looking? Where is their body moving? Even in little ways, like, I think we have to be more sensitive. But often I find those are the children who the parents then tell me at home, oh, yeah, he comes home and he sings every song. He literally mimics the teachers, every movement of theirs, remembers every. Every detail of every child. Right. They're taking in a lot. And the younger you are, the more overwhelming that is. Right. So it's not even peer pressure yet. It's just, whoa, my brain is still really new in this world. And that's a lot. And so I think of it as, again, you know, well, where are good environments for that child? And we're not probably going into a big birthday party is not the best thing. One of my children was like this. And at some point we were like, well, maybe going to birthday parties is not a good thing for him. So I think for the highly sensitive children, again, you know, sometimes the label helps. Sometimes it helps an older child to know, there's nothing wrong with me. I am this sort of, you know, whether it's autism, high sensitivity. Oh, I'm not alone. I'm not. I'm not wrong all the time. But it's really looking for ways to say, how do we support this child? Give them other people who understand them, whether that's peers, teachers, because I think we're quick to blame and shame not purposefully. I don't think parents or professionals want to do that, but that's what we end up doing accidentally. But if that can be really hurtful, the younger the child, the more it's going to be embedded within them.
- [31:02]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
And the more sensitive they are, the.
- [31:04]
Dr. Tova Klein
More sensitive they are, the more they withdraw. Right. I mean, I was an extraordinarily observant child, really. And I think it's why I got into this field. And, you know, and I used to think to myself, adults just don't get children. They just don't. But I would push myself.
- [31:19]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
You thought of that when you were a kid. You thought that.
- [31:21]
Dr. Tova Klein
I can remember thinking, adults don't get it. They just don't get it. And like, oh, but I accepted it as a child. I kind of accepted it. Like, that's just how it is. It was as I got older that I was like, wait a minute, there are adults who get us? And. And I was always watching. Always watching. Yeah. To the point that. Tell you something funny, when I was in college, I lived in a big dorm. Like, there were probably three, 30 of us on one very long haul. One bathroom. I don't know how we did it. And the end of the year, we had like a pizza party. We're all freshmen. And it was all women on that floor. It was like male, female by floor. And they went around, people went around and said, let's talk about first impressions. You know, what were our first impressions? People were laughing and they said, who did we get the most wrong? And then everybody seemed to agree Tova. We got Tova the most wrong. And I was totally taken aback. I said, why? They said, we all thought you were kind of standoffish and snobby. And I was like, really? Why? And they said, because it took us time to learn that you spent a lot of time kind of watching, just watching before you kind of started to befriend us and go along with us. And I thought, oh, yeah, that's happened my whole life.
- [32:37]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Are you an introvert?
- [32:39]
Dr. Tova Klein
I think aren't we all a mix? No.
- [32:45]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
As a personality psychologist, I'll say there's some that are extreme. Most of us are a mix.
- [32:50]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, I'm a mix.
- [32:51]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I would say then you really do have in the bell curve, you know, you do have the 2% that are obviously either extroverted or introverted.
- [32:57]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, I'm definitely a mix. I mean, I can be very social. I love to be with people when I want to be.
- [33:03]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [33:03]
Dr. Tova Klein
And I like a lot of time.
- [33:05]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, I'm an introvert when I don't want to be with someone.
- [33:08]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, exactly. So I pull back. That's my nature. And that was eye opening for me though, because I thought, oh, I need to, like, be aware of that. I don't want people to think I'm being, you know, mean or standoffish. So I kind of became aware of that. And again, that's a big piece of my new book. Raising resilience is like, how do parents get to know themselves so they can know their own reactions to their children? Because the better we know ourselves, the more clearly we can see. See our children.
- [33:39]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, definitely.
- [33:40]
Dr. Tova Klein
And that can be hard. It's hard to look at ourselves and shed our vulnerabilities.
- [33:44]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
And radical self honesty is not. It's not naturally to people.
- [33:49]
Dr. Tova Klein
No. And you know, you have to get through a lot of sort of icky and shame and like to say, yeah, you know, that is me. That is me.
- [33:57]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Sure. You, you have these five, you five something pillars. Yes. You have these five pillars in your book. Strategies, Strategies. Learning to trust, Learning to regulate, Developing agency, Connecting to others and loving oneself. These are great strategies for adults.
- [34:14]
Dr. Tova Klein
Of course.
- [34:15]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Right. And children. Children become adults, hopefully, if they're lucky.
- [34:20]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah.
- [34:22]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
So we have a lot of man babies existing in the world right now.
- [34:27]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah.
- [34:28]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Or I don't know. Or what is the female version of that too? Women babies.
- [34:33]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, I don't know.
- [34:34]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
But that aside, that aside, let's talk about the first one, learning to trust. So how can parents provide greater emotional safety for their children?
- [34:42]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah. You know, I think a big part of this across the ages is when parents start to say to themselves, what does it mean asking this themselves this question, what does this mean to tune into my child Again, not perfectly, no one's perfect. But seeing what a child needs. It starts off with basic needs. I mean we start off with our youngest children providing them, you know, physical safety, nutrients, sleep. But that kind of goes through life and then it becomes emotional safety and responding to them and knowing, because it goes right into emotions, knowing sometimes they're going to be happy and a lot of times they're not and that's okay. And when we message our children that way, like I'm here for you no matter what, even and probably most importantly, in your worst moments, we provide a sense of safety to them. I'm not going to judge you in your worst moments. I'm not going to judge you when you're upset, you know, over something that I think is small but you think is big. Yeah, right. So, and when we do that through life, mostly that's sort of the basis of the relationship. Then we can get through the other hard parts when we're gonna get it wrong because every parent's gonna get it right and they're gonna get it not so right. But that trust has to come from. I'm gonna try to tune in as best I can to what you need.
- [36:06]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Trust is so important and like being able to self trust is so important as well. And like I'm a very like humanistic psychologist, you know, Carl Rogers. And, and that was a real big part of that, that that philosophy was the importance of trusting yourself and trusting your own inner experience. And something you talked about a lot is like if you grow up in a family where you're. Every time you express your need, your parent is like, oh no, that's not as important as my need. You start to not trust yourself as much. So I would, yes. And what you say and see what you think. But it seems like that's a good add on as well. That as a parent, be be aware of to the extent to which you're Shooting down the real felt experience of a child.
- [36:49]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah. It's belief in them. Yeah, right. That's what you're talking about.
- [36:52]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
It's.
- [36:53]
Dr. Tova Klein
Do I believe you? You know when the child says, I'm really upset because this happened, you have to say, okay, they're really upset because this happened. Even if I don't get it.
- [37:04]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, even if I.
- [37:04]
Dr. Tova Klein
Even if I don't get it. I always think of when I was raising my children, who are now all young adults, when they would be younger and they'd say something like, look, do you see? And one time it was this cat in a window, which I could not see for the life of me. We were on a trip and I remember saying to myself, just say you see it. Because at some first, I was like, no, I don't see it. My child was getting so mad at me because they wanted to, like. They wanted me to see what they were saying. So I finally said yes. And I thought, he's gonna also know I'm being dis. Genuine. Right. And then I spotted it and I was like, oh, right there. He said, took you a long time. But that idea that then we were in it together.
- [37:41]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I like that.
- [37:42]
Dr. Tova Klein
Right. So that's a concrete thing. But they need that when they're saying, I'm hurt or I'm angry or I'm upset. What's empathy to say? Yeah, okay, you're upset. But we tend to say things like, that's not something to be upset about or that's not so important right now. It doesn't mean you have to stop and kind of stay in. It doesn't have to be overly. But it does need to be somewhat genuine. Right. Not dismissive.
- [38:10]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, I like. Yeah. Yes. At least somewhat genuine.
- [38:13]
Dr. Tova Klein
Somewhat genuine.
- [38:14]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I like that. I like that. Well, let's talk about the second one. So big.
- [38:19]
Dr. Tova Klein
Learning to regulate the entire field of psychology.
- [38:23]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes. The field of self regulation. Now, I've always been really interested in various definitions of self regulation. It's the field. So Clancy Blair's research at nyu. I'm really interested in his research. And his definition of self regulation is not inhibiting emotions. It really is. It's about using it and channeling it contextually. Appropriate. Is that how you see self regulation?
- [38:48]
Dr. Tova Klein
Absolutely. Because, you know, like, emotions are partly mostly what make us human. Right. It's how we connect. It's how we feel ourselves. It's how we feel others. In a way, it's everything. And I do think for a long time people had this idea and again, when a psychology term then moves into the mainstream, which is important, our research should go outwards. But it can be either watered down or just made too broad. That it was thought like, regulation means I'm calm. And I hear this a lot now. This child's dysregulated, and I say, well, does that mean she's mad? Is he upset? Like, yeah, that's human.
- [39:33]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [39:33]
Dr. Tova Klein
So regulation really is about. And I write about this in the book. Right. So it's. It's feeling an emotion, experiencing it, and not being judged for it. Right. That's where shame sets in. I must be so bad that I even and feel this way.
- [39:48]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [39:50]
Dr. Tova Klein
So first being able to feel it, you know, for the younger the child, the newer this is to them. So having a label for it, a name for it. But let's face it, that's true for adults too. You know, sometimes you might be agitated about something or you're feeling out sorts, and at some point you're like, oh, I'm actually angry about this thing. It's a big relief. I've got a word for it. I feel it within my body and soul. You can think of it. So it's understanding emotions as a first step to then being able to handle them. And for younger children, parents are. Parents are the person helping them do that. We do that for infants. We hold them, we stroke them, we rock them, we change them, because we don't expect them to handle those emotions. Toddlers have a bigger range of emotions. And I always say to parents, I, like, put my arms out in, like, a big arc and say, you are their emotional regulator right now. And little by little, they're gonna get better at it. But of course, then you get into the teen years when the brain's going through a whole shakeup again. It's harder again. So what children are looking for is a parent to be there, but slowly move into the background as a touch point. Because emotions go up and down and some days are better than others. Yeah. So it's really about regulating emotions, is about understanding them, feeling them, really feeling them, but then being able to get through them in a way that says, I am angry. And then eventually I was angry. Now I'm feeling better. And as children get language, parents can remind children, you know, that that was rough and you were mad at your friend, and I'm just thinking about what calmed you down or what, what made you decide to go back to her. And then children can learn from that. They get better in time, but it takes a lot of practice.
- [41:54]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I mean, I, I see a lot of instances as a professor at Barnard College of students that are, you know, kind of have meltdowns, you know, and it's like, as you know, you're not, you're not their parent. But, you know, as a professor, you kind of. It's true. It feels that way sometimes, to be honest. But, you know, what are some examples of what, you know, how do you handle that in the classroom? You know, because as much as I think they all think they're adults, you know, they're not really. Sometimes.
- [42:23]
Dr. Tova Klein
Well, you know, it's funny doing this work for so many years. I can remember early on having a really fabulous student, and she showed up for class for this seminar on early development, and it was her day to present like an hour presentation, and she showed up late, really responsible student. And then she said, I didn't know, it was my day. And I remember thinking, this was before we had all of this really deep knowledge of brain and prefrontal cortex stuff. I, I remember thinking, oh, I, I think the data was starting to come out, like, oh, the prefrontal cortex really develops into the mid-20s, right?
- [43:04]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [43:04]
Dr. Tova Klein
And I remember thinking, oh, okay, well, she's like 20 and she's not there yet. So then I started saying that to the students, like when I would be teaching. Yeah, that. You know, think about this. You know, your brains aren't fully developed. They're close because I'm also teaching about early development and I say, watch those two year olds. They're just on the path, like, just there. They need adults to support them. But I remind them, you know, you've probably had this, like, they don't show up for the final. You're like, what do you mean you didn't show up for the final? They just forget, you know, and you have to say, okay, so their brains are still developing, but where I find it the most over the years, because Barnard students, I mean, I feel like I don't use this word lightly, but I truly feel privileged to be a professor to Barnard students of Columbia students too. But students are Barnard, right? They're, they're curious, they're thinkers, they're bright, they, they want to do good in the world.
- [43:58]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
They really want to do good in the world.
- [43:59]
Dr. Tova Klein
They want to do good. They're really just, they're neat people.
- [44:02]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [44:02]
Dr. Tova Klein
And Greta Gerwig talked about that in an interview after she made the Barbie movie. And I was like, yeah, I get that. Like, I've been teaching students like that, but would be less so now. But they wouldn't get into a class that they wanted. Although it still happens, right? And they come in in a panic now they just come on zoom. But they used to come into my office crying or in a panic and I'd say, yeah, you didn't get that class. What was plan B? No, I need this class. You know, they've got it all. This is a very planned student.
- [44:34]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Everything's supposed to happen and I'm going.
- [44:35]
Dr. Tova Klein
To take these classes now. Then I'm going to go abroad and I say, okay, but you didn't get that class. And I'm very like empathic that way. But no, I can't just change it.
- [44:43]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [44:44]
Dr. Tova Klein
Did you speak to the professor? Well, I sent an email. I said, well, why don't you go to the office hours? Why don't you do like a face to face. But also what's your going to be your backup plan? Because you actually do need a full load of credits. Let's come up with a backup plan. But to just. In some ways I'm modeling what parents have to model, which is like it's going to be okay.
- [45:07]
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- [48:11]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I have, this is just, just, just shop talk off the record. I, I have this, I'm teaching this, you know, Apple application only class and having all these students last second being like, I need to take your seminar class at Columbia to grad. Like it's my fault. Like it's all on, it's all on my shoulders. And I think that if some of these students actually are too perseverant, it's not like I, they, they think that's like gonna convince me, win me over.
- [48:37]
Dr. Tova Klein
Right.
- [48:38]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
But it's actually the opposite. Like that's what you're gonna be like in my class.
- [48:41]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah. But also you can't just give it to the people who write because what about the people who way back in.
- [48:47]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
April they filled out my applic.
- [48:49]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah. Or they're sitting on the wait list and they're like, I'm hoping I'll get in, but they don't know that they could. Yeah. You can't just do the go getters.
- [48:57]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, like last minute.
- [48:58]
Dr. Tova Klein
Oh, yeah.
- [48:58]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Like I need it.
- [48:59]
Dr. Tova Klein
And they're in tears.
- [49:00]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, yeah. Like I need it. Like it's all on you.
- [49:03]
Dr. Tova Klein
You know, I always tell my advisees, I will go to bat for you. Like, if they've tried to get into something several semesters, I say, look, if you don't get in this time, yeah, I'm gonna go to bat for you. But there's nothing that they need that they haven't planned for.
- [49:16]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
You know, you sound like a good advisor. I'd like to.
- [49:20]
Dr. Tova Klein
I love advice.
- [49:21]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Someone I would like to have is. You seem like someone I would like to have as an advisor in life.
- [49:26]
Dr. Tova Klein
I do love that you can call anytime. A lot of those. I love advising. I love mentoring.
- [49:32]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, I can tell. And I do too. It's, it's, it's such a purposeful thing to do. Even just like, I love having office hours. Like, I love being able to mentor students informally. Like in office hours.
- [49:46]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:47]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Developing agency. Let's talk about that one a little bit. How do you establish limits alongside freedom to make mistakes?
- [49:56]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah. You know, this, I call this the, you know, the freedom trail. Right. I mean, you know, I always start thinking about the young child who then becomes older child. The teenager is that, you know, as they get a sense of self and they start to move out in the world, first of all, they want to be with peers. Right. That. The connected part. But there is a sense of I can do this, whatever this is, you know, it starts off with maybe completing a little puzzle and then climbing the steps and then it's calculus before you know it. Right. So parents often think, let, let my child do whatever they want. Right. We're in an age of, you know, gentleness is interpreted as let them do whatever they want. But children feel safest when the adults say, even that's a great idea, but I actually can't let you do it. Right. So we at our center have, we have buckets all around the room because toddlers love to throw. That's agency. I've got some power now. I've got a cracker in my hand. It gets flung across the room. I've got this little toy object or a bigger one. Woo. You can see the wheels turning.
- [51:05]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Like you can see it.
- [51:06]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, yeah. They're like, I can see. They look at a toy. I'm watching them and I think that's going to get flung across the room. And so we give them buckets. And the teachers will say to them, hey, you want to Throw your throat in here. It's like a redirection, but that's the beginning of agency. I have an idea. I can carry it out and then the adults go, well, actually, you can't run into the street. You know, actually when we eat, we eat at the table. You can be done, but that's the limit. And then children start to feel safer. Okay, I can go out there, I can try all kinds of things. I can stumble and I can fall. I'm not gonna ruin myself and I'm not gonna ruin my relationship with my parents. Because ultimately, in a healthy enough relationship, again, not perfect. Children wanna know that they're in their parents good graces, even when they're doing what seemed like very challenging, challenging things.
- [52:01]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
That's a very interesting point. Yeah. They won't admit it, right?
- [52:06]
Dr. Tova Klein
Teenagers for sure won't admit it.
- [52:08]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
They won't like explicitly say, I would like to secretly be in your good graces. But you can see that you are very observant. Yeah. So now you have children.
- [52:17]
Dr. Tova Klein
I have three children. Three children, yes. They're now young adults, but they're still my children.
- [52:23]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
They're still your children. That still is true. And gained a lot of experience and knowledge through. You've gained a lot of knowledge through experience.
- [52:32]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yes.
- [52:33]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Personal experience.
- [52:33]
Dr. Tova Klein
It helps.
- [52:34]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Inform your work.
- [52:36]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, yeah. And they're also different. That's really what helps.
- [52:40]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
That's. Yes, yes.
- [52:41]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah. Individual differences. Yeah. Well, I have three male children and for years we would say, oh, you have three boys. As if they were clones of each other. You know, I'd say, yeah, but I'd have to go to the teachers each year who, if they were going to get a. Same, you know, if one of my children was going to get a teacher that one of my other children had had, I would have to go in and say something like, I know you've had one. I just want you to know how different this next child is. Because I thought it's not going to be fair if they think they're all alike.
- [53:11]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Right.
- [53:12]
Dr. Tova Klein
And we tend to do that. We tend to put sex in there as if it's. That's everything. Right, Good point.
- [53:17]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [53:18]
Dr. Tova Klein
So, you know, then the teachers say to me, like, oh, you know what amazing about your kids? Like, they are so different. I say, yes, they're out of the same family, I promise you. But they came into the world different. They've, you know, they walk a different path. And that's, I think, yes, I'm a psychologist. Yes, I've worked with Many, many children of all ages at this point. But it's really appreciating. That individual means just that individual. And it's hard for us as, as parents to grasp that often, myself included.
- [53:51]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Especially if the child is just so divergent from you.
- [53:55]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, yeah. And from their siblings maybe, or anything that the family expected.
- [54:01]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
That's. And that's true as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Parents have a plan too.
- [54:06]
Dr. Tova Klein
Parents have a plan.
- [54:07]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Does anything ever go by the plan? Maybe a little bit in reality and.
- [54:13]
Dr. Tova Klein
When it does, I worry actually for some of those children who are following the parents plan, being really good, doing what they think the parent wants, then I really worry about where is their sense of who am I and when is that going to come out?
- [54:30]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, very good point. Well, that might relate to the next one. Connecting, connecting to others. So there's obviously the part of that connecting with the child as a parent, but also developing in the child the social skills they're developing with other kids, you know, positively. How important is it for children to develop these social skills for? Like how important is it really?
- [54:55]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. So I mean, one of the wonderful things I think about 4 year olds in particular is they, they start to wake up to like, oh, there's an entire peer group here and most of them want to be part of it in some way. And so it's almost like a gangster mentality. I don't know if I'm supposed to be using that terminology, but they're very empowered and they want to be together and two year olds want to be together too, without much skill. Four year olds have more skill, more language, they can do more cooperatively. They're sort of figuring that out. But I think the misnomer is that children have to have a lot of friends. And so, you know, parents will come to me worried whether it's about a preschool or an elementary age, middle school, like name the level. She doesn't have friends, which would be worrisome for most children. Right. But then when I start talking to them, they do have a one friend, one ally. Maybe it's at their after school program, maybe it's at their church, maybe. Right. My best friend growing up lived across the street and she wasn't in my grade, so we didn't see each other at school and. But I had her, like I could come home from a good or bad day and I had Barb. Yes, right. And so we tend to think children need to somehow be in the middle of the group, but not all. Not all children are and not all children want to be. That doesn't feel right. So there's again, a big variation. But what we do know is that when children really don't have any friends or they're rejected, they're really outright pushed out, not liked, disliked. It can be problematic. And you know, that's all of John Coey's work out of Duke.
- [56:48]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Absolutely.
- [56:49]
Dr. Tova Klein
Right. And that's when I was in grad school, actually. He was not. I didn't work with John directly, but, you know, that work was just getting started.
- [56:57]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Absolutely.
- [56:59]
Dr. Tova Klein
So really being rejected openly, but what we call the neglected children and peer relations. Right. Those are the ones I think parents worry about. They say, well, you know, when all the kids are high fiving each other on the playground in the morning, mine's standing back. And I say, yeah, but then what do you hear from school? She says, oh, I was with my friend. Or he says, yeah, I found a game to play. You know, we're sharing. Somebody told me recently their son discovered yo yos as if it was a new thing. He's like 10 and he has a friend at school that also does yo yos. And that's now what they do at recess or whenever they, you know, probably the cafeteria. And I was like, how cool is that? Like, he found somebody who has his interest and he's learning tricks, you know, everybody wants to belong, I think, right? We want to belong somewhere. Somewhere, yeah.
- [57:53]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I just, actually, just before you, I had Michael Morris from Columbia who talked about tribalism and the fundamental need to belong.
- [58:00]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, we want to belong, but it doesn't have to be in a big group. You know, I was never a group person. One of the things that somebody said to me at my first high school reunion I went to, it must have been my 10 year. This woman comes up to me and she says, I was hoping you would be here. And I said, oh, why? You know something, I knew, but we weren't. We wouldn't have called ourselves friends, but we knew each other. She said, because you never joined a group in high school, but you always had friends, and I just thought you were cool. And I said, well, that's so funny because I was so anxious socially in high school. And she said, yeah, but you didn't join a group just to join one. She said, you always followed your own path. And I thought it was so interesting because for me that was hard. Like, that is who I was. But there was some price to be paid. And for her it was admiration. And she just said, I'm so glad to see you here. And I was like, wow. Because here I thought, if only I were a joiner and got in with a crowd. But she said, no, but you kind of mingled with all the groups, which was true. But I wasn't part of any of that. So I thought to myself, oh, nobody really wins totally in these things, but we all want to be somewhere that we feel like we belong.
- [59:16]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
It's an interesting one. I really resonate a lot with that, the way I was as well. Yeah. But I almost go to the point, like, if someone wants me to be part of the group, they actively don't want to be a part of it. So it's like, I know there's a famous quote like that. Right. Like, I don't want to be a.
- [59:29]
Dr. Tova Klein
Member of any group, Any group that wants me.
- [59:32]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. And I feel that. I do feel that way, though, because, like, you're like, okay. I'm like, what do you want from me? You know, like, I'd rather like not to.
- [59:38]
Dr. Tova Klein
We're gonna have to go back and talk about your parents now.
- [59:41]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Is that. I'm sure there's something stemming from that. But. But I really resonate a lot with that. Like, we may have been friends if we were in, like, elementary school together.
- [59:50]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah.
- [59:51]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Because from what you're describing yourself, I would have been like, I like. I like her.
- [59:55]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah. She's a little bit of an outsider, but not totally an outsider.
- [59:59]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I gravitate towards my fellow outsiders. I guess that is. I guess that is then the group. But.
- [60:05]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah. Thank you. People who are thinking for themselves, I always say it was at some cost. Although then I became the yearbook editor, which was my savior in high school, because there was a yearbook room and you had a. Then we had to print photos and lay them out. And that was like, my haven. Right. And other people who liked photography and liked doing layout, like, we could just hang out, you know, in that room, which I could still picture. Yeah.
- [60:33]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Sounds lovely.
- [60:34]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, it was lovely, actually. Yeah.
- [60:36]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
The last strategy I want to talk about is loving oneself.
- [60:40]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah.
- [60:41]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
And look, it really ties up, I think, nicely, a lot of other themes we talked about today, like neurodiversity, individual differences, you know, how can you really kind of just accept your child as they are, not as you want them to be? Seems to be a really important key to well being, which is my domain. Research.
- [60:58]
Dr. Tova Klein
It's such a key to well being because I think every parent wants to do well by their child. And I say this, having worked in my clinical psych years with, you know, parents who were abusive. But, you know, then I had to come to realize they still love their children and they were trying and didn't mean that the child shouldn't be removed at times. But for the most part, parents want to do well by children. But that often means really reflecting on ourselves to say, who is this child in front of me? Because we all have. If I'm being kind, I would say rose colored glasses, meaning that, you know, we have some shading of our own expectations, our own desires, our own fears for our children, which can blind us from seeing a child. And if they are neurodiverse or just really different from us or maybe kind of like somebody that really drives us crazy, that could be they remind you if you're a parent or a sibling, you have to really get to that and say, wait a minute, but she's not my older sister.
- [62:03]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [62:04]
Dr. Tova Klein
So how do we really come to know ourselves to say, why is this piece of my child upsetting me so much? Or why am I trying to force something on this child that doesn't fit for them? And as you know, I have examples in my book of trying to unpack that with a parent like, who is this child? And. And how can I help you work to see this child for who they are? Because every child, every human wants to be understood.
- [62:31]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes.
- [62:31]
Dr. Tova Klein
And seen and appreciated. But the good news is when parents are able to say, I see you, I hear you, even when it's hard, even when I don't like it, the child then internalizes that, oh, I'm okay, I'm accepted for who I am. When we keep pushing them to be something that they're not, or they can't be, or they're just not, they internalize there's something wrong with me. I'm bad, I'm not loved as me. There's a big price to pay later in life. And as they go through life, not just anxiety or insecurity, but really a sense of deep seated shame. I'm not okay as me. And I don't think any parent wants that for their child. I don't think they go into it saying, let me create this, but inadvertently, that's what happens.
- [63:23]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Kids sometimes, though, create all sorts of fantasies about who they think they are, though.
- [63:26]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah.
- [63:27]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
So I'm just saying they're extremely okay. Yes, you're a fairy.
- [63:30]
Dr. Tova Klein
Okay.
- [63:31]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
You know, like, I don't know about accepting that, but maybe you do. Maybe you do it all with hilarity and.
- [63:36]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, well, no, that's such an important Point. I mean, and I say this in my. My points at the end of the book because I think this is the key to parenting. You've got to have humor.
- [63:44]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [63:44]
Dr. Tova Klein
Respectful.
- [63:45]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
You end the whole book with that.
- [63:46]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, you gotta have humor. I mean, I can think of children. I've had children at 2, but then I see the parent at 10, I'm like, is she still calling herself Little Kitty? I mean, I've had children march into room and say, I'm Little Kitty. And then you call them by their name. They don't respond.
- [64:01]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Wow.
- [64:02]
Dr. Tova Klein
Right. Which I think is kind of cool, you know? And then the parent. I ran into a parent and I said to him, does she still go by Little Kitty? You know, I'm thinking, oh, at 10, she doesn't. And he goes, only in private at home. And I just thought, well, because there was a piece of her that was like saying, this is the tender piece of me. This is the piece of me that needs to be babied. And he said, yeah, we still joke about it. No, she doesn't really. But, you know, there are private moments where she does. And I think, you know, we all want to be taken care of at some level. And that's what children are grappling with all the time. If I grow up, if I do this thing, if I get agency and walk that freedom trail to independence, will you still be here for me? That's our teen struggle. That's our toddler's struggle. And really, I see it in my young adult children. They're moving out in the world. But when they call or say, you know, hey, I'm coming home for the weekend, they want to touch point. They're not like, saying goodbye forever. And that's like, I really think what we want for our children, we want them to want to come home when they don't have to.
- [65:08]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
100%.
- [65:09]
Dr. Tova Klein
Right. They want them to say, hey, like, can we have a meal together?
- [65:12]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
100%. Yeah. They don't need you. They just want to be with you.
- [65:17]
Dr. Tova Klein
Let's get together.
- [65:17]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes. Yes. Now, a rumor. There's a rumor going around that you're retiring soon. Is that right?
- [65:25]
Dr. Tova Klein
So I'm putting it this way. I'm stepping down at the end of June 2025 for my role as director of Barnard.
- [65:34]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
And you're still so young.
- [65:35]
Dr. Tova Klein
I feel like I'm too young to. I mean, I feel like there's so much work I want to continue doing.
- [65:41]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Of course.
- [65:42]
Dr. Tova Klein
Children with families with programs. I spent a month in South Africa this past year working with a program that I've worked with from afar and then one, one previous time there and I thought, I want to do more of this. There's so much that could be done that I want to do. And yeah, so it's going to be hard, but we've been, you know, making the transition and we'll hire someone really good into that position. I have a great team of staff, so. But yes, I've. Yeah, it was not an easy decision to come to, but I bet.
- [66:20]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
But there's still so much for you to do.
- [66:22]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah.
- [66:23]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
But you have done so much and I just want to end by thank you so much for the great contribution you made to our field. I. I can, I'm one of those interviewers that can truly appreciate what you've done to the field. Right. As opposed to you have an interviewer who's not even feeling psychology. You know what I mean?
- [66:38]
Dr. Tova Klein
I appreciate. I get you.
- [66:39]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I get you. I see you.
- [66:41]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah.
- [66:41]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
And greatly appreciative of what? Of the foundation you, you put for people like me, you know, interested in education and child development. Thank you.
- [66:51]
Dr. Tova Klein
Yeah, appreciate that.
- [66:57]
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Dr. Tova Klein
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
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Dr. Tova Klein
Subject to credit approval.
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- [69:28]
Dr. Tova Klein
This is an I Heart podcast.