The Gentle Power of Sisu w/ Dr. Elisabet Lahti

Summary

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The Psychology Podcast

Episode: “The Gentle Power of Sisu” with Dr. Elisabet Lahti

Host: Scott Barry Kaufman
Date: November 6, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman engages in a rich, vulnerable conversation with Dr. Elisabet Lahti—an educator, researcher, and founder of Sisu Lab—about the Finnish concept of “Sisu.” They explore Sisu as a unique blend of embodied fortitude, courage, and perseverance, but also discuss its deeper layers: gentle power, healing from trauma, cultural applications, and the alchemy of resilience. Dr. Lahti shares personal stories, research insights, and guidance on harnessing Sisu both for personal growth and as a force for societal transformation.

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Key Topics and Insights

1. Defining Sisu: The Fire in the Belly

• What is Sisu?

  • An ancient Finnish concept, representing deep, embodied strength discovered at the edge of human limits—“the fire in the belly in the face of adversity.”
  • Rooted in the Finnish word “sisus,” literally meaning “the inside” or “interior.”
  • “When we come to that place where we come to our preconceived limit… and we yet don't give up.” (Dr. Lahti, 07:06-08:19)

• Sisu and “Second Wind”

  • Parallels William James’ concept of “second wind” in extreme adversity, referencing moments when you draw on reserves you didn’t know you had.

• Not Just for Finns

  • Sisu is both culturally rooted and universal—its qualities exist in all people.

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2. A Personal Journey: From Darkness to Gentle Power

• Origin Story

  • Dr. Lahti’s inspiration to study Sisu began after surviving an abusive relationship in New York City, an experience she describes as both traumatic and formative:

    “How do humans overcome extreme adversity? How do we do that? Who overcomes? Who doesn’t?” (Dr. Lahti, 09:17-11:28)

• Phenomenological Research

  • Her PhD takes a “phenomenological approach,” meaning she became part of her own research—using subjective experience and storytelling to deepen the understanding of Sisu.
  • She pioneered research by running 1500 miles across New Zealand, merging self-experimentation with social activism to collect data on endurance, compassion, and healing.

“I wanted to reframe anyone who's gone through any kind of abuse... we are strong, we have incredible capacity and strength, and we have beautiful futures.” (Dr. Lahti, 14:43-17:03)

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3. Sisu vs. Grit and Other Strengths

• Comparing Concepts

  • Sisu is part of the family of grit, perseverance, and resilience, but with key differences:

    • Grit (Angela Duckworth): About long-term passion and perseverance.
    • Sisu: Momentary—arises specifically in crisis or at perceived limits, not about day-to-day persistence.

    “Sisu happens more in the moment… we borrow a bit of this embodied fortitude.” (Dr. Lahti, 25:11-27:55)

  • Embodied vs. Mental Fortitude

    • Sisu is more than mindset—it’s a body-mind phenomenon. The gut, emotions, and nervous system are integral.

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4. The Gentle Side of Sisu: Tenderness Within Strength

• Gentle Power

  • Lahti’s later work, including her book, explores “gentle power,” integrating toughness with self-compassion and mercy.

    • Story of the “miracle of day 12” on her New Zealand run, where compassion for herself became crucial.

    “It actually was or had been easier for me to be hard on myself than to be gentle and kind and have mercy.” (Dr. Lahti, 29:36-32:01)

  • The transformation of sisu through adversity becomes alchemy—turning the “lead” of suffering into “gold” (growth and wisdom).

• Constructive Expression of Sisu

  • Pushing too hard can be destructive; Sisu must be balanced by reason and care, both for ourselves and others.
  • Avoids the “shadow side”—burnout, harming others, stoicism without feeling.

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5. Developing Your Sisu: Practical Tips

The “SISU” Model (41:06–44:41)

• S – Start Now:

  • Neuroplasticity favors practice—start building small acts of courage or resilience today.
  • “Go comfortably into discomfort… the point isn’t to be hard on yourself.” (Dr. Lahti, 41:04–41:56)

• I – Intuit:

  • Build somatic intelligence and listen to your body’s wisdom. “Our brain is always in the past or the future… [but] the body is in the present moment.”

• S – Self-care:

  • “When I finally learned to sleep, my life quality improved so much and so did my resilience.”

• U – Unity:

  • Co-regulate your nervous system, become a “safe person” and foster collective Sisu.
  • “Sisu doesn’t only live in you or me, but in the space between us.” (Dr. Lahti, 43:36)

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6. Sisu in the World: Healing, Community, and Social Change

• Beyond Individual Resilience

  • Sisu is foundational in healing from trauma. Lahti notes the importance of recalling—even in mental health struggles—times we were strong, no matter how small.

    “Opening the conversation so we can even start to talk about that we have this innate fortitude and every single person has it.” (Dr. Lahti, 49:15–50:38)

• Sisu as Cultural Ethos

  • In Finnish culture, Sisu includes honesty and doing things well even when unwatched: “It invites the person who cultivates Sisu to actually look at their own choices.” (Dr. Lahti, 53:00–54:19)

• Role of Community, “Upstanders,” and Collective Courage

  • Sisu Not Silence campaign: applies Sisu to fight interpersonal and systemic violence.
  • The real engine of change is the “bystanders” who become “upstanders.”
  • Cites “the art of insubordination” and the importance of speaking out.

“When we see something that is diminishing to humanity… we have the courage to speak up, speak out against it.” (Dr. Lahti, 39:50–40:15)

• Sisu and Democracy
  • Sisu underpins the values needed for democracy and ethical living: courage, transparency, responsibility.

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7. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Defining Sisu:
  • “It denotes this kind of very deep fortitude. I would call it the fire in the belly in the face of adversity.” (Dr. Lahti, 07:06)
• The Misconception:
  • “It's a misconception to think that Sisu is only the big things we do. I personally think it's those micro moments in our ordinary life… tiny little things that actually really end up defining our future.” (Dr. Lahti, 03:10, repeated at 23:40)
• Gentle Power:
  • “It actually had been easier for me to be hard on myself than to be gentle and kind.” (Dr. Lahti, 32:00)
  • “Gentle power is the higher octave of Sisu—it's the constructive expression of Sisu.” (Dr. Lahti, 34:25)
• On Sisu and Grit:
  • “Grit is passion and perseverance… but Sisu is more like it happens in the moment.” (Dr. Lahti, 25:11)
• On Sisu for Healing:
  • “Even just thinking back in life to when they overcame something that was tough… you can start to remember there is more strength to us than what meets the eye at a given moment.” (Dr. Lahti, 49:15)
• On Cultural Change:
  • “The real fulcrum of change is the bystanders, the masses of people…” (Dr. Lahti, 37:19)
• Micro Moments:
  • “If we in those moments when we feel the pull to abandon everything… use that inner strength to do the thing that might even feel impossible—to face someone with kindness or open a conversation…” (Dr. Lahti, 24:10)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 03:10 – Sisu as micro-moments, not just big heroic acts.
• 07:06 – Dr. Lahti details the meaning and history of “Sisu.”
• 09:17 – Personal story: abusive relationship and origin of her research.
• 14:16 – Her 1500-mile run in New Zealand and activism.
• 23:40 – Misconceptions about Sisu.
• 25:11 – Sisu vs. Grit and embodied fortitude.
• 29:36 – Gentle Power & “miracle of day 12.”
• 41:04 – SISU model for self-development.
• 49:15 – How Sisu aids healing and mental health.
• 53:00 – Sisu in strengthening democracy and cultural integrity.
• 54:34 – Reflection on integration, well-being, and future research.

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Tone & Style

The episode blends deep academic insight with sincere vulnerability and hope. Both host and guest are warm, encouraging, and at times, lightly humorous and self-reflective. Storytelling is poetic but accessible, inviting listeners to see resilience not as superhuman toughness but as a quiet, actionable force within us all.

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Further Resources

• Dr. Elisabet Lahti’s Book: Gentle Power
• Sisu Lab: [website/socials as referenced on episode]
• Sisu Not Silence Campaign and “Upstander Project” for community and workplace activism.
• Related concepts: Equanimity (Buddhist), Grit (Angela Duckworth), Embodied Cognition, Collective Courage.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking both the heart and science behind Sisu—its quiet, gentle, and transformative power.

Transcript

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Kalpen Suresh]

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[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

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[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

I hate to say it, but I.

[Kalpen Suresh]

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[Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's the rage bait.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Kalpen Suresh]

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[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Story that I'm sharing, it sounds quite unusual and it was a big feat. As you know, healing from any trauma is a big feat. You know, it's a trauma healing is always an ultra run for, for all of us. But inside that journey, I would say that it's a misconception to think that Sisu is only the big things we do. I personally think that it's those micro moments in our ordinary life where we either choose to, let's say, turn away from our family member or partner or from a challenge and or we keep our heart closed instead of facing what is there or feeling the tough emotion. For example. It's those tiny little things that actually really end up defining our future.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Today, it's a great pleasure to have Dr. Elizabeth Lochte on the show. Elisabet is an awarded educator, applied researcher of psychology and founder of Sisu Lab, which builds communities and organizational cultures. Sisu is a Finnish word which means extreme courage, and it's all about persevering, even when you think you've had enough. Dr. Lati is the world's foremost researcher of this concept and in this episode we discuss her own personal struggles and hardships as a great example of Sisu, as well as her vision for a peaceful world that integrates the yin and yang of strength and gentleness. I've known Dr. Lati for many years and it has been a poor pleasure watching her grow and flourish. This episode was a long time in the making. So without further ado, I bring you doctor Elisabet Lottie. Doctor Elisabet Lottie, it is such an honor and privilege to have you on the psychology podcast.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

This is super fun. I've always enjoyed our encounters, so this is really a treat. Thanks a lot.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yes. This is a long time coming. This is a long time coming. You've been studying this concept called Sisu Sisu for a very long time and also embodying it and living it for a very long time. Since the last time we connected, I believe you actually changed your first name. Is that right? Am I right about that?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yeah. I drew the line from Emilia to Elizabeth, so it is my official name. And I went through a little process when I turned 40. And maybe it had something to do with that, but I realized the meaning of those two names. So Emilia comes from Greek word that means to rival, to combat, to kind of push really hard. And then Elizabeth comes from Hebrew female name Elisheva, which means God is my oath. So there is this kind of going from pushing and doing things really the hard way into more of kind of opening the hands and embracing a bit more softer approach to life. So I figured that it's something that actually describes the way I approach life nowadays. So, yeah, I go with Elisabet nowadays.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Cool. Thanks for telling us about that. Yeah. Sometimes I think it's like people feel like they're not. They don't really feel an identity with the name they were given. And some, like, a lot of people call me by, like, a different name. And it starts to make me think, wow, people perceive me as that other guy. Maybe I should change my name to that. It's just something interesting. But you haven't changed your gender now, right?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

No.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Okay. Making sure that nothing else has changed, just the name. Okay, cool. Well, it's real delight to have you here, and I was wondering if you could tell our audience a little bit about this concept of sisu, because it's a very Finnish. A very Finnish thing. And I don't know how many of our listeners are from Finland.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yeah, sisu is a really old word from Finnish language. It's about 500 years old and a bit of part of the Finnish cultural history. What they often say is that you can't understand Finland or a Finn if you don't know this word sisu. And the word comes from word sisus, its etymology, and it literally means the inside or the interior. And what it denotes is this kind of very deep fortitude. I would call it the fire in the belly in the face of adversity. So when we come to that place where we come to our preconceived limit of our capacities, mental or physical ones, and we yet don't give up. We might and often feel this. What I would think William James meant when he described the second wind. So in time of crisis, we find this deeper reserve of energy within us. And oftentimes, when I describe sisu to foreign audiences through stories, I see this light go off in people's eyes because everyone who has been to that place, into that dark forest, you know, we. We know how it feels like.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Dark forest, wow. That's the dark forest of the soul. Yeah, you're right. Your writing also has a little bit of a poetic feel to It, Yeah.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

I draw a lot of inspiration. Yes. And the kind of mythical and I think our. We are such a. Such a multi layered being, this whole human experience that I kind of tend to take all the help I can get to parse together this puzzle and try to understand it from different angles. And I think I've also gone to so many dark forests that I've had to kind of start also taking the soul into consideration where my condition and my mind kind of failed me.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Wow. You said you've been in many dark forests. Wow. Do you feel comfortable sharing a personal moment where you felt your sisu was test?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Oh my goodness. I think I need to pull a library and pull something out of it. I mean we all have those places and no one is immune to adversity. The beginning point of sisu that is something that it's already now far away was 15 years ago. But the reason why I ever even started researching sisu was when I was living in New York. It was maybe about five years before you and I met, or maybe a little bit less. Three, three and a half years. And I had moved there with a life partner at the time. But the relationship turned very abusive. It was emotional abuse first, but then it turned very physically violent as well. And by the time it ended and when I started this really long journey to healing, which I didn't even really realize at that time how long it would be. But it also, I would have to say, took me on an adventure into myself and as I was rebuilding that kind of lost innocence and trust. But I discovered a lot of things from that place. And that is really the root of what I do is to try to understand how we rebuild those parts and how can that be extended the situation that we are now also as a humanity we're facing. But the question that kept me up at nights at that time after the relationship was this thought that how do humans overcome extreme adversity? How do we do that? Who overcomes? Who doesn't? How might I find strength? What would be those tools? And then the second part was also that because adversity is unavoidable, we all have some kind of things that happen to us that can. We sometimes use adversity as a fuel. That was the second part of the question. But these two led me on quite an adventure that has been filled with serendipity, incredible encounters and also really re establishing and reinventing my own Sisu and my life force.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. And you might still reinvent.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yes.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. Your PhD takes a phenomenological Approach, can you explain to our listeners what in the world that means?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yes. To use that lens is to really place yourself inside or in the middle of the research. So it is experiential research where you become part of what is being examined. So it's. It's a little bit different from the positivist way where you only observe things or you measure them, but you actually allow your own narrative to be part of it, which is that you, of course, you record everything, but you allow that voice of the researcher be very obvious part of it, which to me sounds quite honest, because always, almost with everything we do, the researcher is part of it anyways, in which our interests direct our. What we want to focus on, for example, and all of that. So with sisu, it seemed pretty obvious after I did this survey first in which I asked people that what do they even think what SISU is? Because it was completely unresearched at the time. It was very little understood. When I asked people that, what is sisu? In an ordinary conversation, I would get these very obscure answers and no one could really explain this to me. And that's what kind of piqued my interest, that, okay, we have this concept from 500 years ago, and there's something in it. And so I got a lot of data. There's a research paper on. It's called Embodied Fortitude. And it's really good. My mom recommends it. And so I realized pretty soon that I had still many more questions that I had answers. And there's something in this concept of SISU, because it is a phenomena that relates so much to our experience and feeling when we are in that dark forest that I realized pretty soon that I need to somehow get closer to it. I need to take it on the road. And I literally did, actually through this physical thing that I did. So that was a way for me to gain data on. As it happens, when I go to that place where I'm stripped so bare from my tactics and my mental strategies, and I feel that I am already done. But because we always find this strength, I wanted to understand that in that lived moment.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. You trained to run 1500 miles across the length of New Zealand. I remember watch following your. I remember watching your videos. And you trained kung fu in a martial arts academy in rural China. Wow.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yeah. It was fun and crazy. I would never do either of those two again.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

But you did it.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

But I did it. Yeah, I did it. And I'm so happy that I had this enthusiasm, which I also believe is a form of life. Force that it can really drive us when we have a vision of something we want to do. And with New Zealand, there was also this social activism that had to, you know, weaved into the campaign. So I did a full trifecta. You know, I went to a country that I felt like was my spiritual home, which was New Zealand. So there was something that pulled me. I had a dream about running the length of New Zealand. So that's how the whole thing got started, you know, so it was a this totally crazy idea. Totally randomly picked the number 50 days. Then I looked at the map, and I'm like, okay, that's about 30 miles a day. And got to collect data for my PhD. And also I combined it with this Sisu not silence campaign to open a conversation around how do we build compassionate cultures and societies and reduce violence, how do we build more social support? You know that. So these things don't happen. So all those combined created this perfect, beautiful story for me that somehow carried me through. And I wasn't a runner when I got this idea. I trained for two years. And this always stands as a testament and a testimonial of these powers and strengths that lie in all of us that are oftentimes unexplored. And I think it was part of the big trauma I had that actually really pushed me because I wanted to reinvent the narrative that we have of overcomers or survivors of domestic violence. Because when I was one, I realized how many. There's often this question of people are seeing that weak somehow. Why didn't you leave? It's a very complex, very nuanced question. And I wanted to reframe anyone who's gone through any kind of abuse of any sort that, you know, we are strong. We have incredible capacity and strength, and we have beautiful futures. And so that was driving me to go through all that.

[Kalpen Suresh]

Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here. And hi, I'm Cal Penn, and we're the hosts of Irsay the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic. Classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[Kalpen Suresh]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett here. Listen to Irsay the Audible and I Heart Audience Book club. On the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. And Doug here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[Kalpen Suresh]

Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail].

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Savings.

[Kalpen Suresh]

Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates excludes Massachusetts attention parents and grandparents. If you're looking for a gift that's more than just a toy, give them something that inspires confidence and adventure all year long. Give them a Guardian bike, the easiest bike to learn on, safest to ride, and the number one kids bike on on the market. With USA made kid specific frames and patented safety technology, kids are learning to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids bike and the New York Times and Wirecutters top pick three years in a row. This holiday season, Guardian is offering their biggest deal of the year. Over 40% in savings on all bikes, plus $100 in free accessory. Each bike arrives 99% assembled, so setup takes minutes, not hours. Whether it's their very first ride or their next big upgrade, Guardian makes every pedal feel safe, smooth and fun. Join over 500 happy families who've discovered the magic of Guardian. Visit guardianbikes.com to shop. Now that's guardianbikes.com I turned off news altogether.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

I hate to say it, but I.

[Kalpen Suresh]

Don'T trust much of anything.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's the rage bait.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Kalpen Suresh]

We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America. When you own your own business, you own every decision. Catch the red eye or take the.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

6Am Make a new hire or promote internally.

[Kalpen Suresh]

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[Scott Barry Kaufman]

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[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yeah, it was, it was, it was truly amazing. It was a very communal effort. We organized 15 events along the run in different cities and in each we had women's circles, men's circles, somewhere. I gave talks after running 30 miles on that day, for example, and.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

30 miles. Wow.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Wow. You know, I remember watching your journey.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Just being able to. Yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Go on.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yeah, yeah. It started with me being able to run a few miles and then, you know, extending slowly and then slowly in this process of just going through the motions, which is really this part of SISU that is not so mystical, actually. This inner strength that nothing has ever changed without action or effort and these very little tiny things and steps stacked on top of each other bring us to the finish goal or the end line at some point.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Did you listen to podcasts while you were running or listen to music?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Scott? I listened to every single podcast of the psychology podcast back then when I was training, so you were with me. I listened to like seasons of different podcasts and a lot of music, but sometimes I would first run in silence for the first few hours. So then I would kind of reward myself, you know, with music or something like that.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Amazing. Wow. Well, what's one of the biggest misconceptions you think exist out there about sisu?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Well, I'd have to say that even though now this story that I'm sharing, it sounds quite unusual and it was a big feat as healing from any trauma is a big feat. Healing is always an ultra run for all of us. But inside that journey, I would say that it's a misconception to think that SISU is only the big things we do. I personally think that it's those micro moments in our ordinary life where we either choose to, let's say, turn away from our family member or partner or from a challenge, or we keep our heart closed instead of facing what is there or feeling the tough emotion. For example, it's those tiny little things that actually really end up defining our future, the present first and then the future. So if we, in those moments when we really feel the pull to just abandon everything or be in a bad mood to someone, what if we actually use that inner strength to do the thing that might even feel impossible to face someone with kindness or with curiosity or open a conversation or a dialogue, you know, that's often very tough.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, for sure. It's not exactly the same thing as grit, right?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

No. All these concepts are, you know, they're in the same family, sisters, brothers, however you want to say it. And it's impossible to kind of draw a line, even though we researchers and humans would like to put them in a box, that this is where SISU begins and something else ends. But I would say a couple of things, for example, of grit research by Angela Duckworth, which is passion and perseverance. So this very long term work toward a goal. So it means there's passion and then there's this day in, day out. But SISU is more like it happens in the moment. So it's not about the long distance goal, but it's actually in a moment when we feel that we are at the limits of our perceived capacities. It's almost like you come to the edge of Grand Canyon and there's no way to continue the journey. So you need to pull out some, a bit more momentous reserves in order to, let's say in a marathon, there's a thing that marathoners call the wall, which they often call that it's impenetrable. But yet most of the people who start the marathon, they finish. So we draw from something within us and we get to continue. So it, SISU happens more in the moment. So we borrow a bit of this embodied fortitude. But the second thing, which is actually very curious is that whereas grit, perseverance, hardiness, they are qualities of the mind. So SISU is what I would call embodied fortitude instead of mental fortitude, that it has a more of this flavor of something that we don't quite even understand. But we do have more research from embodied cognition, of understanding how our body works with our mind and our emotions, thinking of, for example, our gut microbiome from gastroenterology, where this microbiome, through this unconscious process, influences our responses to stress, to pain, to our emotions. So there's this very deep dialogue happening at all times, and it's much more broader than we, for a long time in psychology have thought that we're so obsessed with the mind, and so was I. I had a long time of, you know, before I realized that Caesar was not about the same quality, that it is something a little bit different, and it. It complements this inquiry that we have about human strength and fortitude.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

You thought a lot about this, I can tell.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Oh, I spend a lot of time with this, yes.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Do you. Do you feel like some of the academic aspects were unnecessary, like they're necessary to get a PhD, but a lot of the Sisu is in the doing of the Sisu. It's not in the thinking about the Sisu. Right?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yes. Yes, you're absolutely right. Yeah. And a lot of the work that I do is very. I work with trauma survivors, and, you know, there's really very little point to bring tables and research papers there. It's so much about kind of being able to be present when there's even no words for that. And so. But of course, you need the. I'm so grateful for the foundation that I have, and, of course, having such a big framework of doctoral research, it in itself equipped me to reach so high that without it, I would have never done some of the things I did. So it all works. Worked for the best, I'd say so. And now I get to be called Dr. Elizabeth Lafty by Dr. Scott Berry Kaufman.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Well, it's Doctor. Doctor.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Doctor.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, of course. Now you have a book. It's called Gentle Power.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Is this true? True story. Am I telling a true story?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

That's a true story, yes.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

And in this book, you highlight another side of SISU that goes beyond sheer toughness. Can you talk about that?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yes. And it is a perfect bridge from the previous question, actually. And when you said that, wow, I've spent. You've spent a lot of time with this. And I don't think I would have been able to be so excited and passionate about Sisu for 15 years if there wasn't this other side, you know, this whole toughness thing wouldn't propel me to, to keep going with it. But what I realized about Sisu through my own process first when I was in New Zealand, I had this really huge realization. It was day 12 and I call it the miracle of day 12 because, you know, at that time I had ran these 30 mile days. I had a injury that was developing on my right foot, so everything was a little bit uncertain. Can I continue? It was really painful. And that pain, you know, it took away my. I couldn't even observe the beauty around me. I had a hard time connecting when I was running with people because, you know, pain makes us turn inwards because we need to manage it. And I was at the point of like, what do I do? You know, I have set up this whole campaign, we have events coming up and you know, it's this age old question with our 42 that when should we still push forward or should we now stop? It's, there's never an easy solution and we kind of have to learn, you know, and figure it out. But I had this ongoing conversation with the road because I was there alone and, and this road kept asking me questions, you know, and, or my subconscious, you know, and at some point it said that, you know, Amelia was. Back then, that's like, Emelia, do you see that next bend over there? And I said like, yeah, you know, and the, then I heard the response that, well, you know, when you run there, guess what you're going to see more road and another bend and then more road. And the pain will stop when you make it stop. Yeah. And you know, at that point I started this process of really going into these deep layers of myself where I realized that it actually was or had been easier for me to be hard on myself than to be gentle and kind and have mercy. Oh yeah, that's deep.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

That's deep.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

It was, you know, and looking afterwards, it feels like this whole run for my own personal journey almost existed for this day 12 to kind of. If we think of alchemy, which is. I wrote a book for Finnish speaking people and it's called the Alchemy of Sisu. And you know, of course taking a bit of a risk with such a name, but for me, because alchemy is such a perfect word for this transformation that happens from lead to gold, which Carl Jung, you know, spoke a lot about this transformation of our psyche and the lead for it to turn into gold, it has to melt. And what do we need for that? Melting is heat. And that's where this potential and the gift of adversity also comes even though no one wants it and we resist it, but there is a process that we can actually take away gifts from it. And so at that point, what I did was I simulated myself at the end of the 50 days that, okay, let's imagine that I get through all these days and I've done it. And I used this question from Mark Allen, who's I think he's a six time Ironman world champion, so a total guru of SISU and physical capacity. And I asked him that, what's the one advice that you gave me for this run? And Mark looked at me and he said that honor yourself. And I took this and I looked into those past 50 days that if I arrive, can I say that I honored myself or did I do it at all cost? And kind of reverse engineering from there to that moment, it was actually very easy for me to make the right decision and kind of cut that consecutive days, which was the plan. And then we went to see, went to the ER to look what was happening with the foot, you know, and the doctor on call happened to be an ultra runner himself. So, you know, he didn't bash me for being a crazy person, but he understood, you know, and, and luckily all that I needed was a day off. And then I switched my strategy a little bit. There was no plan B. The plan was to run. That was, that was it. But at that point I realized that, okay, we need to do something. So I've kept the adventure human powered and I cycled some parts of it in the middle. So I caught on those 30 miles I lost and thing and it continued. So I was then kind of zigzagging, running and cycling until my foot was okay again. But that changed everything and the joy came back. I had my autonomy back on this beautiful run that I had designed, you know, and I learned a lot about taking care of myself and combining this toughness with also gentleness. And so gentle power is the, it's the higher octave of sisu. It's the constructive expression of sisu. Because we are often in danger of pushing too hard. So we must balance it with something that brings us again into that place of where we honor ourselves and others. Also, because we can easily be hurtful to other people as well through our sisu, it can be hurtful to ourselves. We can end up with burnout, you know, all kinds of things. We can end up getting disconnected from our peers, our co workers, you know, if we are too harsh on them and then it can impair Our thought process. So SISU must also be informed by reason.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, I love that. I actually just 30 minutes ago got off a call with Susan Cain, who wrote the book Quiet, and I was thinking before I read your book Gentle Power, I thought you were making the point that, you know, a lot of introverts can have grit. It doesn't have that grit doesn't have to be such a bro y thing to do, for lack of a better, better way of putting it.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Well said. That's maybe one of the also the, the misunderstandings around sisu. But yeah, you know, and this. Yeah, yeah, we need balance with the toughness, with the gentleness in order to be wholesome, integrated humans.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, you can have self compassion with yourself. You can have compassion with others even while you're dominating the competition. I mean, people, you know, get so. Get so obsessed with dominant. Everyone's got to win an argument these days. Politics is really horrifying to me right now in America.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

This notion that words are violence, I disagree with. And you know, I just wonder in your. Your work with curbing violence, do you, you know, like, what are your thoughts on like the Charlie Kirk killing and all that, you know, that happened in America? Like, you know, like, I'm sure that violence is quite broadly, you're against violence and violence of words as well, right?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Violence in, in all words, you know, I see that we have a responsibility for protecting life. So anything that diminishes cuts off emotional wings from another person. You know, we need to like. One of the, the core things of seasoned silence was this idea of zero tolerance to violence. You know, and there's this because I've been thinking of, where do I take sisu? Not silence now because it's such a broad concept, you know, to choose courage over silence. And it's not only this interpersonal violence, but it's in school bullying, you know, it's at workplaces, it's in small communications, it's online commenting, it's. It's everywhere. And you know, there's so much talk about toxic leadership nowadays because it is so rampant all over the world. But what makes me really curious or where do I kind of come. Where do I go with this? Is the really untapped potential. And the real fulcrum of change is the bystanders, the masses of people who also. We allow bad, poor leadership in our workplaces when we form cultures where there is zero tolerance to violence and we have those conversations, those tough conversations directly and using gentle power, which means that we balance the harshness that can come with the direct conversation sometimes. I mean, sometimes we need to be super tough too, obviously. But bringing in that humanity into all of that, you know, that we can rise to our best as we are. What we need to see from each other now is like the excellence. But I'm a huge fan of Jackson Cutts, and he's coined this. He's created a project called the Upstander Project, and that is really about empowering and inspiring and training, you know, the bystanders how to stand up, and of course, Tod Kashtan, you know, the art of insubordination, all of that. And so using our sisu a bit more for that. So I think there's a place for every human in this global transformation that we are going through now. You know.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Can you elaborate a little.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Bit that when we see something that is diminishing to humanity, when we see violence, that we don't simply stay silent, but we have the courage to.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

To speak up, speak out against it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's free speech. Sounds like you're pro free speech.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

So I have to say now that as a defined free speech, I'm coming from Finland, so I might be a little bit out of the concept in.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

The U.S. yeah, well, just having diversity of viewpoints and that being allowed, you know, in a lot of ways, free speech is the opposite of a. Of a like. Of a totalitarian regime, you know, where everyone has to have the same viewpoint or else you're murdered. You know, like, you know, we want a real democracy where we allow and defend other people's rights to speak their opinion, even if we disagree with them.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yes.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, yeah. How can people develop their sisu muscles? What are some tips? Help. Help me.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Nice, nice. Sisu muscles.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

That's a good comparison, by the way, because, you know, we. We. We do the exercises and that's how it starts. I drew something on paper. I actually wanted to coin something from sisu, you know, using the. The words themselves so it can be a little memory tool. So I was thinking that how to develop sisu. So the s. The first one, you know, it's like it's start now. The best day to start training our sisu muscle was yesterday. The second best day is today. And just this thing that our brain learns and we change through repetition. You know, neuroplasticity is on our side with this one. So finding. What is that edge for you? Is it athletic one, you know, or is it some kind of an emotional thing? Is it relational? Wherever that little thing is, where it Feels that it takes one to the discomfort zone and we might avoid it so gently. I call it also that we take care of ourselves when we do that. So go comfortably into discomfort. The point isn't to be hard on yourself. Sometimes we need to do that. But when we are training sisu, it's enough to choose the little bit of the discomfort thing because again, it rewires our brain. So when we are actually at the point that we need our sisu, we have that Runway that it's a little bit more easy to actually go and face that tough thing. And then the second one, the I, I put there intuit. So developing those, the somatic intelligence in us, that intuition, because it can be developed, you know, over time, we can start to hear the subtle messages. And that's the thing that our body knows what it needs to support us in tough times. Our brain is always in the past or in the future, you know, it's racing there, but the body is in the present moment. So finding that information there and giving then that to ourselves, you know, to support ourselves, to support ourselves. And then the third one is self care. So now we have sis, self care, third super duper important to give ourselves to rest. The physical things that we need, you know, the building blocks that we all know what they are. But you know, it's. It's when I finally learned to sleep, my life quality improved so much and so did my resilience. So this is a building block to really kind of put on a good place. And then the fourth one is you. That's for unity. And that's the thing, what I think of it is to be a person who takes care of their nervous system, who self regulates so that I can be a safe person to you. And when we all do this to each other, we can create that collective sisu. Because sisu doesn't only live in you, or it doesn't only live in me, but it actually, in a weird way, is in that space in between us where those chemical messages and our brain is constantly asking, am I safe? And so when I bring myself to any place that I signal that I'm a safe human, that's how we can together come from that place of unity. And that's where we really find that true strength and the sisu.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

So culture matters a lot.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Having a culture of sisu, yes, this matters a lot. I mean, otherwise, because we all have to use sisu. But why on earth are we constantly creating a planet where, you know, we are, we are forced to use our sisu to simply survive. Like, how about we learn how to collaborate and be good to each other and kind so that we can use SISU for those feats, you know, of like how do we build a better system somewhere or how do we build better education systems or. Or things like that, you know, but we have a long way to go. But, you know, we're taking. I believe in the power of small steps repeated over time. So I come from a place of hope. I believe in this.

[Kalpen Suresh]

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[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[Kalpen Suresh]

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[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[Kalpen Suresh]

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[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

I hate to say it, but I.

[Kalpen Suresh]

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[Scott Barry Kaufman]

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[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

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[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

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[Kalpen Suresh]

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[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, you are very interested in how SISU can save the world. Well, let's, let's, let's talk about how CISO can help people who have mental health struggles.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

I think, yeah, I think what I've seen quite often is simply to when I open, when they, someone opens the narrative about SISU or I speak of helps people to start to remember those moments when they have been strong even, you know, doing this little SISU stories exercise of thinking past back in the life where they overcame something that was tough and putting them even just with bullet points so that we can start to remember that there is more strength to us than what meets the eye at a given moment. Because that is the first thing that that survival mechanism in a way attacks and our mind gets us on that downward spiral. So we, we simply can't see ourselves as wholesome beings who also have strengths because the mind starts to focus on only on those things that are wrong. So opening the conversation so that we can even start to talk about that we have this innate fortitude and every single person has it. I believe CISO is not a finished thing, by the way. It's obviously a universal capacity. We have to have a name for it. But it's, you know.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, I mean, I just, I feel like, like athletes who are struggling with their mental health, the last thing they want to be told is to just persevere. So my gut felt like this isn't SISU is incompatible. And you're saying it's the exact Opposite, at least the flavor of sisu that you're talking about.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yeah, yeah, that's a. That's a good thing to kind of pinpoint so that those moments of remembering when we were strong, they don't need to be accomplishments. They can be strong. And when I remember, for example, how I supported someone who was being bullied, for example, so there was this element of, okay, that's where I stood up, or even remembering what happened, what allowed me, was that someone supported me. So remembering and seeing kind of that interplay also of how this strength moves between us and how we can support each other.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. Your flavor of sisu reminds me of, like, the Buddhist concept of equanimity in a lot of ways. And I'm a big fan of the Buddhist concept of equanimity because it includes love and warmth and presence. And maybe it's extreme. We call it extreme equanimity.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

I really appreciate that you bring up the term equanimity instead of, for example, stoicism, because stoicism. I get it. And there's that. But that also easily goes again on the. On the kind of shadow side of sisu, where we rather kind of push away something and disconnect, and we're just. We push through that, through the pain, without feeling anything. So I would rather hope my. For myself and for us to develop that constructive side of sisu that more veers on the side of equanimity, if something.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, yeah. No, I really like that. I really like that. So we talked about how it can really help with mental health. What about the collapse of democracy? Can it help with that?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Absolutely. Yes, it can, because. Well, here's the thing. So as a cultural concept. So it's interesting in that sense, too, that it's not just this word that denotes some kind of capacity in a human, but also as a cultural concept. In Finland, it has long roots of indicating something that is about doing things really well, even if nobody is watching. So it has this invitation to uphold a good life so that we do things honestly with transparency. So it invites the person who cultivates siso to actually look at their own choices. So that's also the reason why I see that there is a lot of potential with this concept in this time now, because it's not just, you know, mental toughness. Be tough and overcome, have resilience, but there's also an invitation to ask that, how am I living a good life? How is that built? If someone wants to take it that far? And, you know, I sure do.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Oh, well, what's, what's in the future for you, Doctor? Yeah, what's. Where are you at right now? Where's your head right now?

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Well, I have to say my head is in a. My head and body and soul are in quite a good place now.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I was just thinking in alignment with each other.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yeah, they feel they're in alignment and I think there's been some.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I feel it too, in you.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Oh, I was going to say I feel that you feel it too, because you look like. You look really calm and just integrated and good.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

So I feel that about you.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

I love the, the mutual compliment club here. I like it. But there's a, there was, it was quite a rough ride after the 40s immediately, but I feel that there was some kind of this, a bit of this Jungian integration that happened afterwards that I was able to bring some of my, those parts together. So now I'm able to have this, this resilience and this toughness, but also with so much love lovingness for myself and, and my shoulders are relaxed and I give myself the things I really want to do. So I nourish my enthusiasm with creative writing. I've had the permission from my ophthalmologist that I was able to go back to aikido, back to the dojo, which is. I see aikido as a realization of love. That's what we really do there is. We learn how to, in an embodied way, find, like feel the energy as it moves and where do I tense, where do I soften? And then how do I bring that embodied feeling out from the dojo and into the world? How do I do that in a, in a conversation with, let's say, my partner, you know, or with my mother or anyone, you know. And yeah, so I feel excited. It's a bit of a new page that's turning and I don't exactly know everything that's going to happen, but I want to be on, to be of service with what I've discovered from this road so far. So if for the first part I was building my cv, then it's kind of time, like, what's the testament, the legacy, you know, how can I be of help? And where, you know, will you still.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Be conducting research or are you going to kind of put that.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yeah, I think I'm actually ready to go back. I had to take a little break after the eight year long PhD was over. Yeah. But now my life force is back, so I'm ready.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Wow, great. And are other researchers picking, taking on the mantle? Are they Carrying on the baton, so to speak.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Yes, there's quite super interesting stuff happening here in Helsinki. I got to advise the, the, the making of the SISU scale that's, that's around and validating it. And, and then there's Marta Velasquez, who is bringing SISU quite beautifully to Spain. And he has this other concept called rasmia, which she's kind of exploring the connection of those two concepts. And, and I keep hearing here and there where people are applying it into mental, mental health or therapy and this and, and that. So it's really exciting to see where, where sisu's journey continues, you know, it's on its independent journey, as it always was, you know.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, well, wonderful. It's, it's been a delight watching you grow over the years. You've come such a long way. I remember my first ever meeting with you. And I remember too, I feel like you're a different person.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

It's been a, it's been a long road and I, I always remember how you were the first one to invite me to speak, you know, and do this hour and a half long presentation on SISU to your students at the true. Yeah. @ UPenn. So I.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

You rock.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

I remember all the people who opened the doors in the beginning.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

You were awesome back then, and you're still awesome. You're, you're more integrated. You're way more integrated and grounded. Your energy is much more grounded. It's wonderful, wonderful to see the journey. I'm glad we got you on the psychology podcast. Thank you so much. And yeah, I wish you all the best in your continued journey.

[Dr. Elisabet Lötjönen]

Thanks, God.

[Kalpen Suresh]

Hey, audiobook lovers, I'm Kalpen. I'm Ed Helms. Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever, ever heard with our new podcast, Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from Audible. Listen to Hearsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow earsay and start listening on the free iHeartradio app. Today the day begins at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club at Boston Logan Airport. You get the clam chowder in San Diego, it's Tostadas, New York. Espresso martini. It's 10:00am why not? It's the quiet before your next flight. The shower that resets your day. The menu that lets you know where you are. This is access to over 1300 airport lounges and every Sapphire lounge by the club. And one card that gets you in Chase Sapphire Reserve the most rewarding card. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap.

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