Why Brains Need Friends w/ Dr. Ben Rein

Summary

The Psychology Podcast

Episode: “Why Brains Need Friends” w/ Dr. Ben Rein

Host: Scott Barry Kaufman
Guest: Dr. Ben Rein
Release Date: October 9, 2025

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Overview

In this engaging episode, neuroscientist Dr. Ben Rein discusses the essential role of social connection in human brain health, drawing on evolutionary theory, the neurobiology of empathy and reward, and current societal dynamics. Host Scott Barry Kaufman and Dr. Rein cover why humans are inherently social animals, how modern life is fueling an epidemic of loneliness, and the brain’s mechanisms for reward and empathy. Dr. Rein also relates key findings from his new book, "Why Brains Need Friends," offering practical insights and drawing connections between neuroscience, mental health, and real-world behaviors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Dr. Ben Rein and His Work

• Dr. Rein’s research spans the neurobiology of autism and empathy, including how substances like MDMA affect social behavior ([04:32]).
• He’s a passionate advocate for science communication, believing all scientists should learn to translate research for the public ([05:08]).

2. Three Hard Truths About Social Life

• 1. We are super isolated.
• 2. Isolation is bad for brain health.
• 3. Both external (societal) and internal (evolutionary) factors contribute to this isolation.
  • “We are living in an increasingly fractured society.” (Dr. Rein, [07:33])
  • COVID, remote work, social media, and automation have replaced many organic social interactions ([07:33]–[10:17]).

3. Evolutionary Roots of Social Connection

• Fear of rejection is deeply ingrained; we overpredict rejection in social situations, but real rejection is rare ([11:47]–[13:47]).
  • “Across hundreds of trials, 0% of the time were they rejected. The stranger never said no to a conversation.” (Dr. Rein, [12:51])
• Evolution favored humans who thrived in groups; modern-day social reward systems stem from survival instincts ([15:36]).
• Social stress (e.g. isolation) is an adaptive “alarm”—evolved to push us back into groups ([17:32]–[20:45]).
• Social features like visible sclera and expressive faces facilitate connection and understanding within groups.

4. Empathy and Outgroup Dynamics

• Brain imaging shows empathy circuits are more active when perceiving in-group members ([25:15]–[29:32]).
• Political polarization is weakening empathy, even fracturing families ([29:32]–[30:41]).
  • “Empathy...is diminished for people who we view as in our out group. And there’s literally studies where ...the brain areas involved in empathy will show more activity when there’s that overlap.” (Dr. Rein, [27:27])
  • “There’s a measured psychopathy, I guess...embedded in the human brain. Right. You need to disengage sometimes when it’s important for your survival.” (Dr. Rein, [29:32])

5. Neuroscience of Social Reward

• Social reward involves a domino effect of neurotransmitters: Oxytocin → Dopamine & Serotonin.
  • “This brain system of social reward is first driven by oxytocin...that oxytocin gets sent to a bunch of different brain areas...tips two other dominoes over and those two other dominoes are serotonin and dopamine.” (Dr. Rein, [34:22])
• Oxytocin is context-dependent—promoting in-group love and sometimes out-group aggression ([39:43]–[42:02]).
• Social interaction releases neurotransmitters that reinforce social behavior, explaining why connection is pleasurable (and beneficial for mating and bonding) ([34:07]–[38:43]).

6. The Nuances of Empathy

• Empathy is modulated by context, self-other overlap, and past experiences ([42:20]–[47:17]).
• Cognitive empathy (understanding another’s feelings) can be trained to improve emotional empathy (feeling with another) ([48:14]–[50:55]).
  • Practical exercise: “If you’re trying to empathize more with others, imagine the self-other overlap...” ([44:43]).

7. Challenges in Changing Empathy

• Empathy is hard to shift, especially for strongly disagreeable or antagonistic personalities ([50:55]):
  • “People who are antagonistic are not motivated to become more agreeable, and people who are agreeable don’t want to become more antagonistic.” (Scott, [51:37])
• Most people don’t self-identify as low-empathy, which hampers motivation to change ([52:05]).

8. Virtual vs. In-Person Social Interactions

• Research suggests emotional benefit decreases as interactions become less lifelike: live > video > phone > text ([56:04]–[57:38]).
  • “The less lifelike our interactions are, the worse we feel after.” (Dr. Rein, [56:17])
• Social media use correlates with greater loneliness (“lonely media”) and may reduce sleep, compounding negative mood effects ([58:39]–[60:14]).

9. Likability and Social Success

• Factors influencing likability:
  • Attractiveness (partially controllable)
  • Authenticity — being true to oneself remains crucial
  • Body language (mirroring boosts connection)
  • Expressiveness plus emotional intelligence ([61:44]–[66:21])
• Mirroring body language subconsciously increases perceived likability ([64:43]–[65:19]).
  • “When you, like, if we were interacting and I were to mimic your body movements...they will rate the person as more likeable at the end of it.” (Dr. Rein, [64:43]).

10. Interbrain Synchrony

• Brains synchronize during close social interaction and teamwork, especially among family members or when collaborating ([66:36]–[69:43]).
  • “When two people are interacting, sharing an experience, working together, you may see synchrony and that certain brain areas might show basically identical patterns of activity.” (Dr. Rein, [66:53])
• Competition and outgroup status disrupt synchrony.

11. Synchrony Beyond Direct Interaction

• Watching a movie or sharing a sensory cue (like a familiar smell) can synchronize not just the brain but body signals (heart rate, breathing) and even foster a subtle bond ([71:53]–[73:13]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We are living in an increasingly fractured society, which is obviously bad, or maybe not obviously bad, but it is bad.” — Dr. Rein ([07:33])
• “Across hundreds of trials, 0% of the time were they rejected. The stranger never said no to a conversation.” — Dr. Rein ([12:51])
• “Isolation is bad for brain health.” — Dr. Rein ([10:31])
• “Empathy is a core facet of interaction... Without empathy... you really... dehumanize someone in your brain.” — Dr. Rein ([27:10])
• “There’s a measured psychopathy, I guess, embedded in the human brain... Right. You need to disengage sometimes when it’s important for your survival.” — Dr. Rein ([29:32])
• “The brain has these built-in social reward systems because of the savanna days... The consequence of that might be when we talk to a stranger on the train, we actually feel pretty good, even though we might not expect to.” — Dr. Rein ([15:36])
• “Oxytocin is context-dependent... it can be one of our greatest sources of antagonism.” — Scott ([39:43])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Research background and science communication – [04:32]–[05:29]
• Three hard truths about social life – [07:33]–[10:43]
• Social anxiety and over-prediction of rejection – [11:47]–[13:47]
• Neurobiology of social reward – [34:07]–[38:43]
• Empathy: context, self-other overlap, and group dynamics – [42:20]–[50:55]
• Personality and empathy change – [50:55]–[52:44]
• Virtual vs. In-person interaction – [56:04]–[60:14]
• Likability and body language – [61:44]–[66:21]
• Interbrain synchrony – [66:36]–[69:43]
• Synchrony via shared experience/sensory cues – [71:53]–[73:13]

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Conclusion

This episode blends approachable science with heartfelt urgency, stressing the importance of rekindling in-person social connections and cultivating broader empathy—both for our mental health and for the cohesion of society. Dr. Ben Rein’s blend of neuroscience, evolutionary psychology, real-life examples, and practical advice creates an invaluable guide for understanding (and improving) modern human connection.

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For more insights and practical tips, check out Dr. Ben Rein’s new book, Why Brains Need Friends: The Neuroscience of Social Connection.

Transcript

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

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[Dr. Ben Ryan]

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[Dr. Ben Ryan]

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[Dr. Ben Ryan]

There's a measured psychopathy, I guess you could say, embedded in the human brain, right? You need to disengage sometimes when it's important for your survival. But nowadays I think that these systems are being taken advantage of, I think, and we're really starting to see this disengagement from people who really should stay in our good graces. I think that I see a lot of this in families. It's heartbreaking to see families fracture because they disagree politically. And I hate to talk about politics, too, because it's controversial and people get upset about it. But it's reality. And I'm not here to preach anything, but to just share the neuroscience on it. That this is a real significant phenomenon that's affecting our country and affecting our brains.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore the depths of human potential. Today we have Ben Rhine on the show. Dr. Rhine is a neuroscientist at Stanford University and a renowned science communicator.

[Self-Actualization Coach]

Dr. Ryan has spent over a decade.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Studying the neuroscience of social interactions and has written a book on the topic called why Brains need the Neuroscience of Social Connection. In addition to being a researcher, Dr. Rhine also has a popular Instagram page where he makes scientific findings accessible and interesting. In this episode, we discuss why humans need social interaction, why we are becoming more isolated, and how social interaction affects the mind and brain. We also discuss the neurobiology of empathy and whether it's possible to become more empathetic. I found this episode really honest and also hopeful. I've been following Ben on Instagram for a while now, and I really appreciate the care he takes in being scientifically informed and conveying the information in an accessible manner. So, without further ado, I bring you Dr. Ben Ryan. Dr. Ryan, so great to have you on the Psychology podcast.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and great to meet you.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. I'm a longtime admirer of your work on Instagram.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Likewise. That's why it's exciting to be here. Yeah, yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

You do a really great service for public science communication and you're also a scientist. Can you talk a little about your research, actually, and where you're at and.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, sure. So I've always been interested in social interaction, and luckily I found my space in science first in my PhD studying the neurobiology of autism, and then on my. In my postdoc working at Stanford, I got to study the neurobiology of empathy and specifically how mdma, the drug ecstasy, enhances empathy in the brain. So that was a whole lot of fun. And ever since I wrapped up my postdoc, I've been doing some teaching. I'm an adjunct at Stanford. I teach a class on science communication. Also planning to get some things going elsewhere at other Universities trying to get science communication built into graduate level coursework. I think all scientists should have some level of training in how to not just do great research, but explain that research to the public, because that part is lacking. And I think, you know, it benefits science, it benefits society, benefits everybody, if scientists can speak clearly. So want to get more of that going.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I really agree, obviously. And I also think that the science of social connection, like understanding that can also help you understand how to be a better science communicator on social networks. You know, when you're, you're not just talking science, you're trying to resonate in some way with another human, which is what you often do when you try to make friends.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. It's funny because I've thought a little bit about that. Someone once told me because, like I said, I study empathy. And, you know, I'm not one to claim to say, oh, I'm empathic or I'm an empath or whatever, but someone once told me they invited me for a talk and they were like, you know, you're, you're a scientist who really embodies what they study. You're. So I can tell you're an empathic person. I was like, oh, it's really interesting. Like, I wonder how much of my interest in studying empathy has something to do with, you know, its involvement in my life. And I. And ever since then I've been thinking that, you know, empathy is really important for teaching. In order to help someone understand something, you need to really wrap your head around their mind space and how it differs from yours and fill in those gaps and. Yeah, I guess I try to put that to use on social media when I make my videos.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, for sure. And you do, you do. So you have a new book called why Brains Need Friends, the Neuroscience of Social Connection. Well, first of all, congratulations on your first book.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Thank you, thank you.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

That's a big milestone in your life, personally, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure it'll make an impact on the world too.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

I hope so. It's definitely a, you know, of course, a huge project. And it just so happens that the timing of the publication, which is October 14, is also very coincidental with the. The launch of My First Daughter, which is due, she's due October 29th. So October is going to be a busy month. I'm expecting a lot of changes in my life. So, yeah, it's been an interesting period of my time.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Okay, double congratulations.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Thank you.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Thank you. Well, what are three hard truths about our social lives? Let's start there.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, sure. So, all right. We keep hearing that we are becoming more isolated, right? That's the first hard truth. We've heard it on the news. We've heard it in podcasts like this. We heard about the loneliness epidemic. And we need to recognize that we are living in an increasingly fractured society, which is obviously bad, or maybe not obviously bad, but it is bad. And of course, the reason for that is multifold. Right. We could say it's Covid induced all this isolation, and we've never recovered. We could say social media is isolating us, you know, remote work, whatever you name, as the cause. There's no doubt about it. We are spending less time together. The data show that, you know, people's lived experiences show that. And right now, I would actually encourage any listeners to think about five years ago, you know, 2020, before COVID all set in early 2020, how often were you seeing friends, and how does that compare to right now? Because what I believe has happened is that during COVID we spent a few years in this isolation period, and our brain's predictions changed. We got used to seeing our friends basically never. And so our expectations for how much we. How much social contact we should expect went down. And I think we've sort of kept some of that with us. And I think also it's like, you know, I used to go to the gym, but now I do a peloton at home with people on the screen, or I used to go to the grocery store and talk to the butcher or whatever, and now I just order my groceries on Instacart. And there's so many places where interactions have been replaced that I think for most people, if you really dig in and think about it, you'll recognize that this hard truth, number one, is true, that we are in an increasingly divided world, number two, second hard truth is that division is the enemy of brain health. When it comes to the health and function of your brain, not just your brain, but your body, too, social interaction is super, super valuable. And I'm sure we'll get to the biology of why that is in a little bit. And then the third hard truth that I want people to understand is that, yes, Covid and remote work and Instacart and all these things may be dividing us, but we also should recognize that our brains have these internal pitfalls. And I don't think these have really reached the, you know, modern information ecosystem as much. You know, the Surgeon General hasn't put out a notice. Hey, you know, we have these evolutionary Built evolutionarily built in pitfalls in our brain that prevent us from connecting with others. But that is true. And there are many reasons why people often hold back from interaction that are basically built on years and years. I'm talking hundreds of thousands, millions of years of historical precedent of how humans used to interact. That is totally not accurate anymore. So those are my three hard truths.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

So to summarize in a sentence. Not a sentence, a word. What are the three?

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Okay, I can't do it in a word, but I'll do it in a sentence. Number one, we are super isolated.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Number two. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Isolation is bad for brain health.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

And number three, the world is to blame, but we are also internally to blame. All of us. And not us, our decisions, but the way we are built.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Gotcha. Yeah. So you're already picking up on some really, really profound themes about human nature. Looks like you also take an evolutionary perspective.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

I do.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

On social media psychology and social dynamics, which is. Which I like. I like that for sure. Yeah, it's true. Back in the savannah days, in savannah desert days, I mean, there was real consequences when you're in small vans, real, real serious consequences for being shunned from the group. You know, I feel like we still feel that way. If we're shunned by a couple of people on social media, even though it's a couple people out of how many billion on the planet, we take it so like the same kind of thing, you know, same kind of feeling. And so does that cause us, you know, just to double click on the pitfalls thing? Does it? The way our brain is wired in that way, as you point out, does it cause us to, to avoid and to fear the very relationships that would probably contribute to our growth?

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

And yeah, I mean, everybody. I don't want to say everybody. There's no absolutes in science or the world. Most people definitely struggle with fear of rejection. Nobody wants to. You know, you go to college, it's your first semester, you're trying to make friends, and you're like, hey, my roommate seems like a pretty cool person. Maybe I should befriend them. And nobody wants to be like, hey, you want to hang out this Friday and get shot down? And like, just. And then you're stuck in this awkward situation, you're living with them. You know, that's a very particular example. But similarly, like, there are studies now talking about the science. There are studies where people are invited to interact with strangers, for example, in public settings, like on a train or a bus, you know, on a Commute. And these are like, yes, they are scientific studies, but these are real world situations. It's not like a fake laboratory. So someone gets on the bus, they're told to go, interact with a stranger, have a conversation, see how it makes them feel. And people predicted that over 50% of the time they would get rejected. And across Hundreds of trials, 0% of the time were they rejected. The stranger never said no to a conversation. And that right there is one of our internal pitfalls that we, we expect to be rejected for some reason. Maybe it's just, you know, maybe it's not so much that we, we always expect to be rejected as much as it is we don't want to subject ourselves to the risk of being rejected because it's uncomfortable. And so we hold back.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. Yes. And is that finding also revealing that people don't say no when they, even when they want to say no because they're trying to be polite? Is that, is there also. We don't know that. I mean, they didn't ask or do interviews, but I think that would be an interesting additional sort of debriefing.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

To see what percentage of those who said yes, I would like, I'm okay with that. Actually. Internally was like, no, Right?

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, good question. I will say this. In those studies, they did ask the stranger at the end of the conversation, hey, how, how did this experience go for you? And people said, oh, it made me feel better. I actually enjoyed the conversation even though I didn't start it. Someone approached me, but I feel better now. You know, my mood is improved a little bit. But yeah, I mean, there's, there's a variety of ways you could be approached by a stranger on a train. And so I'm sure a lot of the time the impulse might be, oh, gosh, what is going on here?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

And, and there's just like there's so much, so many. There's male, female dynamics and does that moderate anything? You know, there's the individual differences. Researcher in me is like, they can have 50 other control variables. But I.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yes. Yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

But your finding in itself is very valuable.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Well, 100%. And I think to tie the neuroscience into it, as for why it's warranted to say interaction is good for you is because the brain has these built in social reward systems because of the savannah days. You mentioned that being in a small group or being on your own was a risk to survival long, long time ago. And so being in larger groups is always good. And so evolutionarily, humans were the humans who are more social, who liked existing in groups were favored. And so because of this, the brain, our human brains, our social brains, we have these social reward systems where being around others essentially drives the release of neurotransmitters that are rewarding, reinforcing, like dopamine, oxytocin, which keep us held together. Back then it was for the sake of our survival, but now the consequence of that might be when we talk to a stranger on the train, we actually feel pretty good, even though we might not expect to.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, yeah. I also think that there could have, there could be an interesting study where you find that the large majority did not want to say yes, but then they at the end said, I'm glad I said yes. So you can find a finding there too. You actually, there's some research on introverts showing that they often tend to enjoy social interactions more than they predict they will. So I'm just thinking of the parallel to that, to this scenario.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

They actually did. They did that. So not with the stranger. Right. Because there's two people. There's the person who the research scientists told go talk to someone, and then there's the victim, you know, on the other end.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, right, right.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

But the people who, who were, you know, really engage with the scientists, they asked them to predict what the interaction would do for them and how it would impact their, their commute to work. And they, a hundred percent of the time under predict or set the expectations lower, they thought it was going to have like no impact. And then in the end, they felt a lot better when they got off the train. But now again, even further, you know, group differences come into play about introverts versus extroverts. I don't, I don't remember them doing that analysis of that breakdown. But, but I have definitely come into contact with the studies you're talking about where you take an introvert, you take a super extreme introvert, you throw them into a group conversation for 10 minutes and you say, act extroverted. Be as outgoing, assertive, you know, dynamic, expressive as you can. And at the end of it, they're like, that actually felt really good. But if you ask the same person to do that for a week, by the end of the week they're like, please release me from this experiment. I need to be free.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, very good way of putting that. Well, I don't think we really, really got to why social interactions are such a. Why is it such a strong human need? Why is it so important to have friends?

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, again, I take an evolutionary viewpoint on this. And, you know, it's, it's truly a matter of survival. And you can forget about humans for a second. Let's look at a different species. Let's take ourselves out of it and let's look at like a mouse, right? If you're a single mouse and you're out in the wild and you're being hunted by like a snake, would you rather be by yourself or would you rather be with a group of a colony, maybe we should say of 20 or 30 mice? You know, probably it's going to be beneficial for the sake of your survival if you're in a group because maybe you're, I don't know really about how, how well mice fight, but. And if they could like take on a snake, but at least being in a group, you're more likely to survive because you're probably going to get away and then, you know, or there's a 1 in 20 chance of you dying versus the others getting hunted. So it's beneficial. Humans are just the same. But we're way more socially evolved than mice. We have all sorts of incredible features. You know, just for example, the whites of the eyes, you know, the fact that there's a dark inner part of the eye and then the white part around the outside. Most animals don't have that. The white part's called the sclera. And because it's white, we can tell where someone's looking. So just by interacting with someone, you know, you're talking to someone and they start looking down at your, at your pants, and you're like, oh, my gosh, is my zipper open? Like something as small as that, you can read someone's mind. That's super helpful for when you're, you know, there's five of you and you're in a battle with a predator, and you can tell what the others are thinking just by looking at their face. And we have eyebrows and all sorts of things like this that make us so adept at working together. And so that is so crucial because the, you know, when it comes to evolution and take evolution out of it, when you talk about life, period, regardless of where, where you believe humanity and the world comes from, the name of the game is survival. You have to survive. And being in groups is how we survive best. And so these, these systems are meant to really reinforce us to be around others. These brain systems, I mean. And on the other hand, you know, think about that mouse. You get, oh, and by the way, I should have said this. Mice are social animals too. And so they also have social reward systems in their brains. But if you're the mouse and you get, you know, exiled from your colony for some reason and you make an insulting joke at one of the matriarch mice and they kick you out and you're on your own, you should have some signal that tells you this is bad. Get back to your group, right? You are probably going to die on your own. And since humans are also social animals, our brains should have the same signal. And that signal is isolation induced stress. Being isolated, being away from others is stressful and it creates a, it induces a stress response in the body. It drives cortisol release. And, you know, of course people feel bad and increased anxiety, depression, all sorts of negative consequences. And that's another indication of how important it is to be around others, because I believe that this is an evolutionary system, that it's our brains telling us, you know, alarms are on. Get back to your tribe or you might die.

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[Dr. Ben Ryan]

I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

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[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Fairy Underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Co. Affiliates excludes Massachusetts hi all.

[Self-Actualization Coach]

I want to take a moment to make a few important announcements that I'm really excited about. As you all know, I'm committed to helping people self actualize in the service of that I just had a new book come out called Rise Above Overcome a victim mindset. Empower yourself and realize your full potential. In this book I offer a science backed toolkit to help you overcome your limiting beliefs and take control of your life. Are you tired of feeling helpless? This book will offer you hope. Not by identifying with the worst things that have happened to you, but by empowering you to tap into the best that is within you. Rise above is available wherever you get your books. Are you a personal coach looking to take your coaching to the next level? I'm also excited to tell you there are Foundations of self actualization coaching. 3 day immersive experience for coaches is backed by popular demand. Foundations of Self Actualization coaching is a course offered to enhance your coaching practice by offering you evidence based tools and insights to equip you to more effectively help your clients unlock their unique creative potential. You can learn more about the course and register by going to centerforhumanpotential.com sacred that's centerforhumanpotential.com sac okay, now back to the show.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

You made a good case. You made a good case. I would say from an evolutionary perspective. Also, reproduction is an important part of the story as well.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

100% survival comes first because you can't reproduce if you're dead. And then reproduction, which is also a lot of interesting science on that anyhow.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

There really is. Yeah. In the field of evolutionary psychology, they've mostly focused on the mating part of part of it than the survival part of it, interestingly enough. Okay, cool. Well, you mentioned isolation earlier. And why do you think we're so isolated as a species right now in this time of human history?

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Well, I already mentioned one answer, which is that, you know, I really do think that the extended period of isolation that Covid brought sort of reset our Social expectations and we're still adapting to this new world. You know, it's been a couple of years that we've reemerged into society, but we're still adapting. Our brains are still kind of stuck. I mean, I. Maybe it's just me getting older, but personally, I used to be like every Friday, Saturday night, or Saturday during the day. Well, which friends am I going to see today? And now I'm just sort of like, you know, my brain doesn't expect that anymore. I'm just like, well, watch TV or, you know, do some chores around the house or something like that. So I think, I think that's a big part of it. But I also think, you know, again, the, the cultural or the societal changes that were implemented to adapt to Covid. Right. Like I mentioned, all the. I refer to it as the automation of everything. You know, you, you call your bank. Thank you for calling. It's a. It's a, you know, it's an automated service. You order your groceries, you see your doctor, even you can do telemedicine instead of going into the office. Here we are on a podcast, not in the same room. You know, everything. I guess this isn't automated, but this is digitized, I suppose. But this is happening all over the place. And even unfortunately with AI, large language models, people turning to these for friendship. Like, we are going in a really interesting direction because a variety of things. And I think on top of that, the other, at least in America, but certainly internationally, the other big problem is political polarization. You know, we are beginning to. Not beginning. We have really divided and it's. It's much easier now than ever to judge a person based on their political affiliation. Didn't used to be as salient. It wasn't as much of a focal point, like who did you vote for? But nowadays we've really fractured. And I talk about this in the book as well, that it's really concerning because empathy is a core facet of interaction. Right. Without empathy, the ability to understand and share someone's emotions, without that, you really. That's like one of the parts of that of interaction that like humanizes someone in your brain, right. You are relating to them. It's, you know, here I am with my water bottle. I'm not. If I punch this water bottle, I'm not feeling bad for it because my brain empathy systems do not engage for it. It's not. It's inanimate empathy though, is diminished for people who we view as in our out group. And there's literally Studies where, when brain imaging studies where people are putting brain scanners in their, let's say they're shown a picture or a video of someone going through something painful and they're, that person is assigned to either, you know, one of two group identities. And if it's the group identity that they, that the person in the scanner shares, whether that's a religious identity, race, political identity, sexuality, things like that, the brain areas involved in empathy will show more activity when there's that overlap. When people, when you see someone as similar to you, your brain's empathy systems literally rev up more and you feel more empathy. And so when we're becoming fractured like this and 50% approximately of people living in the same country as you are your out group. And it's not just like this is a minor thing, it's like, no, I really feel very differently from this person. Yeah, it's very probable that our empathy systems are disengaging and we're just sort of dehumanizing each other in this way. And I feel, I feel that that's a really tremendous problem and one that's, you know, not so subtle. I think this is pretty evident just kind of looking at the world, you know, go on social media and post something political and just see the response you get, you know.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, I see as a real big problem too. And that's something I've been trying to fix. But help tried fixing it's boy, is it hard because people don't really want to change. Yeah. So basically, as I hear you talking, it occurred to me that, you know, we all kind of become psychopaths when we think about our out group. Politically, our mind is really probably not that different from a bona fide psychopath in that moment.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Right. And I mean, again, evolutionarily there is an explanation, you know, why, why not care for someone in your out group? Well, if you're battling this other tribe and they, you know, you see there, you see a person in a different tribe or an opposing tribe and they're fighting an animal in the wilderness, it's better for you to not feel empathy for them because, you know, you don't want to go in and help them and risk your life to save your enemy. Right. So this, that's probably where this all comes from. But nowadays we live in these very mixed cultures and we're around all sorts of different people and yeah, I mean, so the reason I say that is there's a measured psychopathy, I guess you could say, embedded in the human brain. Right. You need to disengage sometimes when it's important for your survival. But, you know, nowadays I think that we, these systems are being taken advantage of, I think, and we're really starting to see this disengagement from people who, you know, really should stay in our good graces. I think that I see a lot of this.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

In families. You know, it's heartbreaking to see, you know, families fracture because they disagree politically and, you know, and I hate to talk about politics too, because it's controversial and people get upset about it, but, you know, it's reality. And I'm not here to preach anything but to just share the neuroscience on it. That, like, this is a real significant phenomenon that's affecting our country and affecting our brains.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here.

[Kal Penn]

And hi, I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

You know what?

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I can see you as Mr. Darcy.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Here.

[Ed Helms]

Listen to earsay the Audible and iHeart audiobook book club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Limu Emu (Liberty Mutual Mascot)]

And Doug, here we have the Limu IMU in its natural habitat Helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

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[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty. Liberty Savings Ferry unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, no, I'm glad, I'm glad that you, you're talking about it. I'm glad it's important and relevant. Why from a neurobiological perspective do people feel better after a social interaction? I mean, I assume a positive social interactions. Neuro has a different neurobiological imprint signature than a terrible one. But let's assume a good one for a second. Why do people.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah. So let me talk about momentarily about the neuroscience of social reward. That social reward system we have and it can get a little complicated, but I think it's fun. I think the neuroscience is interesting.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

My listeners are here for it.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

All right, awesome. So there's three major players in the brain when it comes to social reward. And when I talk about social reward, I mean think about cuddling with your spouse or congratulating or a friend congratulates you on an achievement. You know, these are things. Or even dare I say posting a picture of your, you in a swimsuit and getting a bunch of likes on social media. Right. You're getting social. Right. And I will like that post for you, Scott. So this, this brain system of social reward is first driven by oxytocin. And that's probably no surprise, right? We've heard of oxytocin. It's the love hormone, you know, whatever people call it, there's all sorts of names for it, but it has a function in the brain as a neurotransmitter. And most of that oxytocin is produced in a brain area called the paraventricular nucleus. And so that oxytocin gets sent to a bunch of different brain areas. And I like to think of this oxytocin release as the first domino falling and then it tips two other dominoes over and those two other dominoes are serotonin and dopamine. And so, and that happens in different brain areas. So that oxytocin from the paraventricular nucleus or PVN gets sent to the ventral tegmental area. And you know, I'm not going to get. If you're interested in these brain areas, please do a Google search. It's lots of fun stuff to read. But the ventral tegmental Area is the primary, is the largest source of dopamine in the brain. And so naturally, you can imagine, okay, if oxytocin, this love hormone, this social bonding neurotransmitter, drives dopamine, which is reinforcing and drives motivation, you can begin to understand immediately why social interaction makes us feel good. Look at it this way. Every Friday and Saturday night, bars all over the world are packed full of people. We have this precious free time, and we go spend it in these tight quarters, in social settings with others. You know, why isn't it that humans spend our Friday and Saturday nights? I don't know. We could be doing every. Anything. We could be reading. We could be cooking.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

The mating motive is part of that story as well.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. And part of the reason for that mating motive is because of these same systems. You know, this dopamine is reinforcement to pursue, is critical for love and romance. And oxytocin as well. Anyways, the other system I mentioned is serotonin. And so it appears that oxytocin goes to a brain area called the nucleus accumbens, which is very much involved in motivation and reward also. And in the nucleus accumbens, that oxytocin comes in and it causes more serotonin to be released there. And that serotonin in the nucleus accumbens seems to have this unique social property. So research from Dr. Rob Malenka, his lab at Stanford, where I did my postdoc, and, you know, many great researchers have come out of this lab. Dr. Malenka is a legend in the field. He's, he's known or he's credited for understanding a lot of what we know about synaptic plasticity. So he's a legend. He's the goat. A lot of research from his lab has shown that that serotonin release in the nucleus accumbens in mice can drive just social pursuit. So if you. If you take a mouse and you stimulate that serotonin, they will suddenly become more interested in socializing with other mice. If you do the same thing in a mouse model of autism. So a mouse that has genetic alteration that's linked to autism in humans, normally those mice will be pretty disinterested in socializing, but you stimulate serotonin and the nucleus accumbens, suddenly they're spending more time with others. And also my own research found that that signal was the key for mdma, enhancing empathy, also in mice. So, anyhow, so you can think about this. Three dominoes. So oxytocin falls, it drives serotonin Release, it drives dopamine release. You get this unique reinforcing, you know, probably energizing concoction of neurotransmitters that leaves you feeling good. So to. Sorry for the very long answer with all the neuroscience, but effectively that's the answer. The reason you feel good after a social interaction, especially a good one, is because it's tickling these brain systems that tell you this is reinforcing. We should do more of this. And this feels good.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

This is really, really cool. And thank you for explaining that. I could listen to you all day talk about some hits which you're very good at it.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

I appreciate that.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Of course. So there's some nuances I want to talk about. One thing I was thinking of is that can you ever have the dopamine domino drop and can that be a bonding experience? Can that release oxytocin?

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

I'm not aware. Geez. It's a good question. I'm not aware of that circuit from.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Just curious. You know, you don't bring me people in who, I don't know, give them something thrilling to do together and that's, you know, has a positive expectation of a reward and then they report greater bonding and, and actually affects oxytocin. I don't know.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

I'm, I'm sure there is interplay between those systems, but I don't know of any specific studies that have documented that.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, no. Right on. I'm just asking nerdy follow up questions. Yeah. Okay, cool. Okay. Oxytocin is an interesting one because some recent research I've seen suggests it's probably best characterized as the in group love hormone. Meaning that as long as you're talking to someone that you feel like there's trust there. Trust is a big part of oxytocin and an agreement and ideas and things. But you also can find that if you're talking to someone who you perceive in your out group. Oxytocin increases aggression, which is counterintuitive to people who have tended to think of oxytocin in the past as only the love hormone. It actually can be one of our greatest sources of antagonism.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, right. There's definitely a link to aggression, for sure. I mean, I think this is a beautiful demonstration of the complexity of neurochemistry. Right. We have so much going on. And just like the question you asked, does dopamine drive oxytocin? It's like, I don't know, but I'm sure it does. You know, I'm sure there's some circuit in there, like, 86 billion neurons, all these different systems interacting in all these different ways. They all influence each other, right? Like, that's the other thing we talk about. Like, oh, you know, I just said it. Oxytocin gets sent to the ventral tegmental area and stimulate dopamine. But, like, it doesn't just end there, right? There's like the dopamine is going somewhere and doing something, and then wherever it touches, it's going and doing something. And it's all this, like, incalculable mass of circuitry that we can never track down. And I've thought for a while that it would be cool to create some growing database of, like, all the brain circuits. And, like, you click on one and it, like, just ripples all throughout, and we can, like, try and figure out all these echoes in the brain of where everything's going. But it'd be so cool, and maybe one day we'll get there. And I certainly don't have the capacity to build it myself, but someone please do this. But, yeah, I mean, it's a complex organ. And when I'm speaking about these things, of course, I'm speaking in broad general terms of, you know, how neurochemistry works, but situationally and like you mentioned group differences, right? There's so much nuance built into all of this.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

So much nuance. I want to really understand, wrap my head around empathy, because it just seems. It seems like these days there's so much selective empathy, you know, and, you know, so what determines how much empathy we feel for another fellow human being?

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Okay, there's a lot. And when I say, like, not, you know, how much empathy you feel, it's not just about how much empathy you feel, but how much those brain systems activate. And yes, we have. Scientists have sorted out there are certain brain systems or brain areas that seem to be especially activated when we experience empathy. And those. The two that come up a lot or three, actually, are the anterior cingulate cortex, the insular cortex, and the prefrontal cortex. So when I say, you know, the following, what I mean is these variables I'm about to mention can influence how much activity occurs in these brain areas when we're trying to empathize with someone. So one of them is, of course, the context, right? So if you. If you're talking to a friend and they're like, man, I was stabbed by 150 needles earlier this morning, those brain areas would fire up. You'd be like, oh, my gosh, that's horrible what happened to you? But if they told you, oh, actually this was acupuncture, I feel so much better now after that, right. Those systems will back off. So the context of whether they're experiencing something painful, you know, it's. It's about our ability to step into it. Right.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Interesting.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Speaking of our ability to step into it, if we can really imagine what it's like to go through something. So for instance, if you, you see someone get their hands slammed in a car door and you've had that happen to you before, or for instance, someone who's gone through labor and they're talking with someone who's talking about their experience going through labor. Right. There's a difference in how much we can really reactivate the sort of concept of what that's like. So that influences how much empathy we can experience for someone. And on the extreme. Yeah, keep going on the extreme end of that. This is super, super interesting. So those, some people are born with the inability to feel pain. It's called congenital insensitivity to pain. Very, very rare, very dangerous. Unfortunately, very short lifespan for these people, because pain is important. But those people, they tend to underestimate pain for others, right? So they can't relate to the experience. And so their brains are less effective at embodying and understanding what the experience is like for others. Now, another thing is in group, out group, of course, I already mentioned this. Pretty much, you name it. If someone is different from you, they're liable to induce less empathy activity in your brain. And a really quick kind of way to think about this is if you imagine a Venn diagram, two circles with an overlap in the middle. And you are one of those circles and the other person is the other circle. And you try to imagine self, other overlap. So put those circles together. So like Scott, you and I could picture. I obviously don't know that much about your personal life, but I can imagine that we probably have a pretty significant amount of overlap just from what I know about you. And with that comes more empathic activity in the brain. And so one of the tips that I like to give is if you're trying to empathize more with others, imagine the self, other overlap, right? Here's an example from the book that I really like to use because it's so simple. So imagine you're driving on the highway and you see someone parked on the side of the road. Their car is clearly broken down, scale of 1 to 10. Let me paint the picture a little more. They're standing next to their car. They look super helpless. They're maybe on the phone and like you're just like, man, this person is totally screwed. Scale of 1 to 10, how likely are you to pull over and offer them help? And you don't have to share your answer or you can.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Um, ask it one more time.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

What's the likelihood that you will pull over? Scale of 1 to 10? That you will pull over and offer them help.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Sorry. Tell the story though.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Person is okay. Person is standing on the side of the road next to a broken down car. They look totally helpless. You could tell, you know, there's smoke coming out of their engine. They're standing by the car. They look distressed. Whatever you're picturing, whoever the person is, what's your Number? Scale of 1 to 10 likelihood that you will pull over and stop and help them?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Okay, probably like if I have five time, probably a nine.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Okay, now and I want everyone listening to do that as well. Please come up with your number now. Same scenario. Imagine that you're driving by and you see the exact same scenario, but the person you see has a different skin color and they're wearing a necklace with a religious emblem that is different from the religious religion that you follow. Their car has a political sticker of a politician that you don't like.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Wow.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Maybe they're using a different brand of phone than you are using. You know, they're sitting texting on an Android instead of an iPhone. Whatever. Have you felt your number gradually declining? Is it now lower? And I know you probably your natural impulse, even if it is lower, will not be to share that it's lower because that's, you know, it seems really bad. It seems like you're.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Well, you know, I'm weird. I'm a weird, I'm a weird human. Like when I was in, when I was really young, I was in special ed and I'd always like beeline towards the ones who look different, you know. So like in some instances it's so, so contextual. In some instances I might actually be lying to certain people who I feel like I'd be like, well, I don't think other people are going to help this person. So it actually would make me more likely to want to help them. I know that's, that, that sounds like I'm making that up. But I generally think that could be true in a certain instance.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, I believe you.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Like if I'm in like a, a blue state and I see like someone with a maga hat stuck by the side of the road, I actually might be more inclined to be like, I Don't think anyone else in this town is going to want to help this person, you know, or vice versa, by the way, it's not just like I'm saying, I'm pro maga. That wasn't my point. My point is, you know, whatever.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, totally. I mean, I was. Your. What you're saying requires a very high level of cognitive empathy. Really?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah. I think I squandered cognitive empathy for sure.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah. The, the purpose of the exercise though is that for most people, the gut reaction, yes, sure. It's going to be lower, right?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

And that's because of that your self other overlap is diminishing. Right. As, you know, different color skin, different religious identity, different political affiliation, all these things are pulling this person further and further away from you. And so in scenarios like this, if you ever encounter something like this and you're trying to will yourself into empathy, which by the way, would be a very noble mission, you can try to add things back into the middle. Right. Maybe. Maybe this person has a dog at home just like you, or a cat. You know, maybe this person is that tonight when they get home, they're really looking forward to watching the same TV show that you like to watch. Maybe the music they just turned off when they pulled over was the same music you're listening to right now. There's so many ways to fill in the gaps and make this person more complex than what these visible traits are that we often tend to focus on. And in doing so, you might actually gradually feel those empathy systems come back online and think, man, you know, I could really relate to this person. This would suck for me if I'm pulled over like that. And in the moment, this may be really helpful because if you can will yourself into cognitive empathy, what I just mentioned, which is the ability to understand someone's emotions and just think what, you know, what are they feeling? Right. I can understand it in my head. Then that may help you lean into emotional empathy. Those are two different things. And emotional empathy is the feeling of someone's emotions. So if you can get yourself to think, oh, you know, they probably feel terrible, and if you have that higher self. Other overlap, you might think, I could just as easily feel the same way. I could just as easily be in the same position. What would that feel like for me? And if you can impose those. Those emotions over your own, you might start to feel that tightness in your chest of I'm on the side of the road, I gotta get somewhere, my car's broken down, I gotta call AAA or whatever this is a disaster. And then you can imagine someone pulling over and offering help, and it's just like a rush of oxytocin, really. It's like a rush of love. It's like, oh, my gosh, the impact I could have on this person is tremendous. And ultimately, I don't think that we should let a couple hundred thousand years of, you know, evolutionary precedent and this natural impulse to divide by groups to get in the way of us being a really healthy society and helping each other now. And I think that's what it's doing ultimately.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Oh, yeah. This is really, really gold, what you're saying. In the personality change literature, the agreeableness, disagreeableness factor dimension of human personality has been the one that's been the most difficult to change. They've tried. There's interventions, and people who are antagonistic are not motivated to become more agreeable, and people who are agreeable don't want to become more antagonistic. So you just find it very hard in the personality change literature because there's not the motivation. So I think there's, like, what you're saying, which is the things we can do, and then there's, like, the motivation aspect as well, needs to be a part of it as well. You can't bring a horse to water. What's the expression? I don't know, but you know what I'm trying to say. Yeah, no, you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

That's the one. Yeah. I mean, it's. It's a challenge. And I think also recognizing your own empathy levels is also kind of difficult. Right. I think, you know, I hear a lot of people say, oh, I'm an empath, right? I have a lot of empathy.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

But I never hear someone tend to be, like, the worst people on the planet. What are you gonna say?

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

This could happen. But the other I was gonna say is I've never heard anyone say, you know, I'm really low on empathy. I really don't give a damn about anybody. You know, nobody really says that. And those are the people who. Who would be best to recognize that there are ways to actually enhance your empathy, not just through these little, like, sort of behavioral thought experiments that I'm talking about. But, you know, there are literally trainings out there that can enhance empathy, things like that. But, yeah, I mean, empathy matters. It really does.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here.

[Kal Penn]

And hi, I'm Kal Penn, and we're the hosts of Irsay, the Audible, and I Heart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here, listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Lenovo Advertiser]

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[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Lenovo.

[Limu Emu (Liberty Mutual Mascot)]

Limu emu and Doug Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[Kraken Crypto Advertiser]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[Limu Emu (Liberty Mutual Mascot)]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates excludes Massachusetts.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, it matters so much and I just love how you connect all these things in your book. You know, just the overall need for social connection with ways in which we can become disconnect, isolation. I mean, it's all connected. I see how and I see how it's all connected. I'm so very. It's very, very wonderful to be able to talk to you.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yep. Thank you.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

But we're not done yet. I know that sounded like all the best to you, but I need to have a few more questions.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

So what are your thoughts on the difference between Virtual interactions, like, you know, within the age of zoom. Covid. You know, some people are like, we're not going back to the way we were before. I prefer this. You know, what, what does the science say about that, though?

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, gosh, by the way, I didn't even mention that. Right. Virtual interactions, remote work, right. Like all these things contribute to our loneliness issue. Anyways, the science on this is emerging, right? We've. It's fairly new, but in general. So I mentioned that interacting makes people feel better for the most part. Right. We discussed this difference between introverts and extroverts and such. But broadly, people feel better after interacting. The research on virtual interactions seems to suggest that the less lifelike our interactions are, the worse we feel after. Not that, like. So, okay, let's take a kind of a gradient approach, right? So the best thing you can do is interact in person. You're hugging, you're talking, you're whatever, doing all the things the brain does when we are interacting in person. Now we step back to video. We've lost a couple things. Number one, we lost eye contact. It's impossible to look into each other's eyes unless you're both staring at your camera, which is not eye contact. Number two, we've lost social smells, which are totally a factor. You know, we may not always notice them. Sometimes we do notice smells from other people, but there's a lot of things that happen subliminally we don't even recognize are going on. And the other thing is we lose a bit of body language. Right. Like right now, I. I don't know what's going on with your lower body, Scott. You might. Your legs could be fully crossed. They could be, you know, you can have them up and you could be relaxing, whatever, that stuff matters a bit.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

They might not be wearing pants.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Right? Right. I assume neither of us are.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I am, but we are both.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

We are both wearing pants. But yeah, so you lose some of that information right then. Now let's go another layer down to a phone call. Right. Less lifelike. You can't see each other. Now go down to a text message. Totally not lifelike at all. You can't see here. Whatever feel. You can't even hear the tone of voice in the words that you're sending each other. So it's very different. And what the research seems to show is that people don't feel as good after texting with others as they do after talking in person or even on video. And the reason for that may be because, you know, the Brain doesn't necessarily recognize a text conversation as an interaction. It may not trigger all those positive effects in the brain because it totally lacks most of the things that the brain uses to say, oh, I'm in an interaction with someone. Right. Like the difference my brain recognizes between my water bottle here and a person is facial expressions and tone of voice and all sorts of things that say, oh, this is a person.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Right.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Because at the end of the day, we're just brains operating and our brains are soaking up information. And so without those things, it's not going to have that same effect. The other thing, of course, is that when we look at social media, which is not really a form of direct interaction, but it's allegedly a, quote, social medium, the more people use social media generally, the worse they feel. And they, you know, they tend to show higher anxiety, depression scores. And interestingly, what I think is the best fun fact of all is that people who use social media more tend to feel more lonely. So it seems to be not very social after all. It may be isolating, in fact, and there's a lot of reasons why this could be. Obviously, there's the social element of it. The social comparisons, the hostility online, the arguing, all this. The fact that when you're on social media, you're generally by yourself, so you are actually isolating. But there also might be a central role of sleep, which is interesting because in those studies where they're looking at people who spend more time on social media, they feel worse, they have, you know, their mental health is poorer. Well, those people spending more time on social media are spending that time at night swiping instead of sleeping. And as we know, the effects of sleep deprivation are really bad. It can harm your mood, cognition, focus, all sorts of things. But it may be that spending less time sleeping and more time swiping is ultimately leading to these bad effects. But. But they can't account for some things, like the loneliness, for instance.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Wow. Such. It should be called lonely media, not social media.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Right.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I just tweeted isolation media. Tweeted that this second while you were talking.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

That's impressive.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I admit it. Okay. You inspired me. Well, there's so much. Oh, my gosh, there's so many questions I had for you. Well, what determines how likable you are? I don't feel like likability is always the same thing as I feel like you can have a very likable personality and still personally be very lonely.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I mean.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, tell me a little bit.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah. Likability is such an Interesting thing because there's a lot of research on it, you know, and it almost seems like kind of a silly thing for scientists to study. But it does really matter, you know, because the more likable you are. Yeah, generally there's a lot of benefits. You know, people who are better liked, you know, they are rated better in their professions and things, you know, all sorts of. It tends to just create a sort of halo effect on people that it's like, oh, wow, this person's great. You know, so there, of course, it's. It's helpful to understand what makes someone likable. There's a lot here. Some of the things you can't control, unfortunately, like your level of attractiveness seems to have a really great bearing on how likable you are.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

You can control that to a certain degree.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

You can, yes.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Maybe women can more than men.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

I don't know. Yeah, I mean, you know, I do. I do say in the book, basically, technically, this is controllable, but I would please advise you not to go, you know, reconstruct yourself because of this chapter. You know, because the other thing here too is that authenticity is one of the variables that controls likability. So if you. If you, you know, discard your true self, trying to seek a more authentic or a more likable version of yourself at the expense of authenticity, it may not have any effect in the end. The other uncontrollable but technically controllable thing is your name. Interestingly, people have to tend to perceive others, you know, differently based on their name. 1. 1. I hate to make political references, but this is so interesting after we've talked for politics about politics for a while now already there's some research showing that people with harder to pronounce names are rated as less trustworthy. And to me, that makes me think about 2024 election. There was a lot of confusion I noticed about Kamala Harris's name, whether it was Kamala. Kamala is hard to pronounce right, which is a canonically less trustworthy thing in the sciences. And so when you're talking about someone voting for a person that they want to be president, the person should be trustworthy. And I've thought during the presidential election about, I wonder how much her name, without people even noticing it, is affecting whether. How likely people feel to vote for her. Anyways, you can cut that if you want it later on.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

No, that's super interesting.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, it's like these. It's almost like a. I don't know if you've ever read Freakonomics. It's like one of those, like, Freakonomics, like science things anyways, as far as the controllable things, you know, the things you can really grip and modify. So body language is really interesting. People move a lot when they interact. It's not very natural. And people also mimic each other a lot. And the mimicking is. Seems to be supportive for interaction. So when. When you, like, if we were interacting and I were to mimic your body movements, obviously not like one for one, I'm mirroring you. Like a mime. That would be weird, but kind of just, you know, you may notice this happening all the time anyways. You cross your legs and the person you're talking with crosses their legs, or you're talking to someone and you notice, oh, that's funny. We're standing in the exact same stance. Happens all the time. It's very subconscious with humans. Do it naturally. And it's like this affiliative thing. It's like this subconscious way of saying, I am with you. I'm on your team. Look, my body's even in the same position. And it's funny because when. When actors come in and they, you know, in like a research study, and they mimic someone's body, body positioning during, like a short interaction, the people in the study, even though they don't know it's an actor, they don't know they were mimicking them. They will rate the person as more likable at the end of it. So interesting. And.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah. And so, you know, I. Again, I don't recommend, like, mirroring, but, you know, it could be used to your benefit. If you're in a job interview or something, you're really trying to make a good impression and they, you know, they sit back in their chair and they fold their legs like, you could do the same. It might. It might maybe subliminally prime their brain just a little bit to like you better. But another thing that's really important is expressiveness. And there's a. Now there's a very fine line here because expressiveness often goes with extroversion, right? You're very. You're making a lot of facial expressions. You're touching people. You're moving. Right?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's true.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Expressive and extroverted people are typically more. More liked as well, more likable. But the thing about all this is, in order for extroversion to make you more likable, you also need to have high emotional intelligence. So you need to not just be super outgoing and expressive and you know, assertive and all this. But you also need to be able to understand the other person's emotions because we've all met someone who's really, really outgoing to the point of being overbearing because they don't necessarily take into consideration your experience in the interaction. Right. It's just like so intense and it's like, I'm exhausted. And so that fine line of being expressive and extroverted, but also understanding the other person and using that emotional intelligence is really key. So there's a lot of things. This is probably the extent of what my brain can remember off the top of my head. I lay it all out. There's a whole chapter about likability where I talk about these things in the book.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, it's wonderful. And a lot of these things that you're talking about that increase likability, they also increase interbrain synchrony. Especially the mimicking stuff you were saying and the mirroring.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, Interbrand synchrony is such a cool.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

I love that topic. Yeah.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Should I. Should I give a primer?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Yeah, yeah. Talk a little about that. So that was the. When I wrote something about that, shared a study, it was like most likes than I've ever received.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Oh, really?

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Really into that.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, it's. It's kind of sci fi, Right. It's one of those things where you hear about it and you're like, yeah, this is probably bogus. And then it's like, wait, this is actually real science that two brains can sync up. And, you know, I have thoughts on this. So the, the general idea with interbrain synchrony is that when two people are interacting, sharing an experience, working together, you know, collaborating, if you're measuring their brain activity, you may see synchrony and that certain brain areas might show basically identical patterns of activity. There's a lot of ways this can be interpreted. And I think the way that it often strikes people is like, whoa, what? Like, is this some sort of like quantum physics? Right. Like, are these things. The things are actually like linking up. And you know, my impression is that I actually think it's just like you're on the same page, right. You're both thinking the same. I don't necessarily think that, like there's some signal emanating from your brain that they're locking up and, and the two brains are synchronizing as so much as you're engaging in this social state and you have all these facial expressions and, you know, there's all this information in the world around us that allows our brains to function identically at the same time, which is supportive for collaboration. And, and because our brain patterns are, are similar, we're like literally on the same wavelength, we're thinking the same. And so we can collaborate better, we can work better in teams. You know, we feel maybe more trustworthy, trusting of each other. But the thing that's super interesting about interbrain synchrony is that it's, it's sensitive to like who's on your team basically. And like one of the most accessible pairings for intra brain synchrony. And by that I mean like it's parents and children. And if you put parents and children together, you have them work on a task together. What I mean by more most accessible is that they're much more likely to achieve interbrain synchrony than if you put like two strangers together or even two friends.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Makes sense.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

And which it does make sense because I mean for many reasons. One, it's super helpful to be able to collaborate effectively with your children or your parents. And also, you know, there's all this, your brains are literally similar because you're related. But what's super interesting is that if you flip the script and instead of collaborating you are competing with each other, you have the parent and the child compete, the interbrain synchrony just completely vanishes. And I find that even in like the same task, like if you have a collaborative task but then you switch it so that they're like, they're actually competing against each other, interbrain synchrony goes away. And so to me that's why I think of it as this like system help to help us really collaborate in teams and makes sense. But it's, but the fact that it's sensitive makes me, I think it's so fascinating. So you know, if you're arguing with someone or whatever, you're probably not going to be able to access that brain state with you.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Well, this goes into a very different territory. But I've been curious about the telepathy tapes and what happens when two autistic people who are non verbal try to communicate with each other. You know, they seem to communicate at a, a different, something different's going on. And so I think it's just, it'd be cool, it'd be cool to look at synchrony, synchrony across different types of neurodivergence and. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

And I actually, I'm not aware of those what you're talking about. That sounds extremely fascinating, but it makes me think of something you know, you're right in that intra brain synchrony can occur organically, I guess you might say just kind of spontaneously. Because I know there are some studies in infants where an infant can achieve intra brain synchrony with their mother and just kind of like hanging out and playing, which is super interesting. And what's also fascinating about that study is that they had the mother wear a shirt for a while to bed, and then when they put a different woman in front of the baby, that interbrain synchrony stopped. Like, the baby does not synchronize with a person who's not their mother. But if they put the mother's T shirt that she was wearing that smelled like her in front of the baby while the baby was interacting with another woman, so it's just another woman, and then you're just giving the baby the smell of the mom, they achieved interbrain synchrony, which is super interesting, maybe is because, you know, infants have like very little sense of sight and obviously very low levels of, you know, just sort of general awareness. So smell is one of the like true forms of sense that they can detect what's going on in the world around them. But anyways, and also I mentioned earlier, you know, social smells, you may not detect them, but they are influencing your brain. That's another example of that. But I just think it's fascinating that, you know, you're just with your baby and you're achieving interbrain synchrony just looking and playing with them. So that does challenge my, my notion a bit.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Absolutely. And makes me just think of adults as well, and different conditions involving smell only. You know, like, or, or listening to a nostalgic song on the radio, you know, can that cause synchrony between two people who once had a memory together? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, there's, there's all sorts of fascinating ways of maybe creating synchrony that doesn't even involve direct communication between two people.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, and actually that does happen. Like there's, there's one study I'm thinking of that did something kind of similar to that. They had people watch a movie, they had to watch Friday Night Lights together. And, and they measured not brain synchrony, but like bodily synchrony, like breathing rate, heart rate, you know, things like that, like facial expressions. And, and they did find that there was some level of synchrony between the people. And interestingly, even though the people didn't interact directly while they were watching the movie, the more that their signals synchronized, like their heart rate and facial expressions while simply watching the movie, the more they reported liking each other at the end of it, even though they didn't interact with each other, there was just some for some reason, the synchrony made them feel affiliative towards each other.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

Increase oxytocin? Both of them?

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Yeah, maybe so. I mean, I guess you're sharing a nice experience together, right? You're laughing at the same time in the movie.

[Scott Barry Kaufman]

It's like maybe dopamine too. Well wow, wow, wow wow. Dr. This was such an enlightening episode and so important. Thank you so much for coming to my podcast all the Best with your book release.

[Dr. Ben Ryan]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It's been a blast.

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[Dr. Ben Ryan]

This is an iHeart podcast.