As measles outbreak turns deadly, RFK Jr. gets the facts wrong

Summary

Summary of "As measles outbreak turns deadly, RFK Jr. gets the facts wrong" - The Rachel Maddow Show

Release Date: February 27, 2025

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Overview

In this episode of The Rachel Maddow Show, host Rachel Maddow and panelist Craig Spencer tackle pressing public health crises and governmental mismanagement. The discussion spans the resurgence of the bubonic plague in Mongolia, a deadly measles outbreak in the United States, and the detrimental impacts of the Trump administration's policies on food safety and disease prevention efforts. The episode also delves into the political fallout in Virginia due to federal workforce reductions and the ensuing gubernatorial race.

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1. Bubonic Plague Resurgence in Mongolia

Timestamp: [01:02]

Craig Spencer opens the discussion by highlighting a worrying trend: the resurgence of the bubonic plague in Mongolia, primarily linked to the hunting and consumption of marmots.

• Historical Context: Spencer draws parallels between the current situation and the Black Death of the 1300s, emphasizing the potential for catastrophic loss of life.

  Craig Spencer ([01:02]): "Bubonic plague is an infectious disease that kills you quickly. You get it from a bacteria that is carried by rodents... it is the worst plague to have ever afflicted humankind in all of human history."

• Current Outbreaks: Recent years have seen multiple cases in Mongolia, with marmot hunting being a significant transmission vector. Incidents in 2019 and 2020 led to governmental bans on marmot hunting to curb the spread.

  Craig Spencer ([03:00]): "In some marmot populations in some parts of Asia, bubonic plague is endemic. It's really widespread in the population of those animals."

• Political Implications: Spencer criticizes high-profile figures like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. for downplaying the severity of such outbreaks, questioning the integrity of leadership in health crises.

  Craig Spencer ([07:19]): "Robert F. Kennedy Jr. ... is not a scientist. But he is a man who works at a law firm in Florida, not a scientist. ... This was first reported in Vanity Fair."

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2. Deadly Measles Outbreak in West Texas and New Mexico

Timestamp: [16:55]

The discussion shifts to a significant measles outbreak in West Texas, now spreading to New Mexico, with 124 confirmed cases and the tragic death of an unvaccinated child.

• Government Response: Robert F. Kennedy Jr., head of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), is criticized for misinformation and inadequate handling of the outbreak.

  Craig Spencer ([16:55]): "Robert F. Kennedy Jr. really is Donald Trump's idea of the best person in the whole country to lead the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services... almost every single thing he said about it was wrong."

• Misinformation: Kennedy inaccurately reported the number of deaths and hospitalized individuals, misleading the public about the outbreak's severity.

  Craig Spencer ([17:30]): "Local health authorities say it is not two people who have died, it is one person who has died... they have been hospitalized for respiratory distress and other serious and potential fatal symptoms of measles."

• Anti-Vaccine Stance: Kennedy's anti-vaccine rhetoric is condemned, as it contradicts established public health initiatives aimed at preventing such outbreaks.

  Craig Spencer ([18:00]): "Robert F. Kennedy Jr. wrote a whole book about measles... 'measles outbreaks have been fabricated to create fear.'"

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3. FDA Mismanagement and Food Safety Concerns

Timestamp: [10:00]

Spencer delves into the turmoil within the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), exacerbated by the Trump administration's mass firings and poor leadership appointments.

• Mass Firings: The Deputy Commissioner for Human Foods resigned in protest over what he described as "indiscriminate mass firings," which decimated the FDA's food safety capabilities.

  Craig Spencer ([10:00]): "The Trump administration initiated indiscriminate mass firings. According to the head of the human Foods program... showed disdain for the people who do that work."

• Inadequate Appointments: The administration appointed individuals lacking relevant expertise, undermining the FDA's effectiveness.

  Craig Spencer ([11:00]): "The new person... is a man who works at a law firm in Florida, not a scientist. But he is a hunting buddy of Donald Trump Jr."

• Listeria Outbreak: The FDA is currently managing a listeria outbreak linked to contaminated frozen shakes, resulting in 12 deaths across 21 states.

  Craig Spencer ([14:00]): "The FDA is handling a recall of frozen shakes... 38 people in 21 states. 12 people have died already."

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4. Undermined Ebola Prevention Efforts

Timestamp: [26:03]

The conversation highlights the Trump administration's detrimental impact on Ebola prevention and response capabilities, challenging claims made by Elon Musk regarding the continuity of these efforts.

• Funding Cuts: Significant reductions in USAID's Ebola prevention funding and staffing have crippled the U.S.'s ability to respond to outbreaks effectively.

  Dr. Craig Spencer ([26:03]): "Normally, the US would have quickly sent one of our Ebola experts to help the response, but this time we didn't because we couldn't."

• Refutation of Musk's Claims: Spencer directly challenges Elon Musk's assertion that Ebola prevention efforts were only briefly interrupted and swiftly restored.

  Dr. Craig Spencer ([28:00]): "Elon Musk and Doge were responsible for actively and actually stripping off the letters of the USAID... we have not turned back on."

• Expert Opinions: Former USAID officials confirm that Ebola prevention efforts remain stalled, with USAID's operations frozen and funding inaccessible.

  Craig Spencer ([28:46]): "Public health experts... say that the Ebola prevention efforts were hobbled, that they've not been restarted."

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5. Political Fallout in Virginia Due to Federal Workforce Cuts

Timestamp: [33:26]

Spencer examines the ripple effects of the Trump administration's policies on Virginia's economy and political landscape, particularly focusing on the upcoming gubernatorial race.

• Economic Impact: Virginia, heavily reliant on federal contracts and a substantial federal workforce, faces over $100 billion in annual federal funding and more than 145,000 federal employees affected by mass firings.

  Craig Spencer ([33:12]): "Virginia's economy also benefits more from federal contracts than any other state does... started cutting off federal funding that's been legally appropriated by Congress."

• Governor Youngkin's Response: Governor Glenn Youngkin is criticized for his inadequate support to affected federal workers, offering minimal assistance and failing to address the root causes of the crisis.

  Craig Spencer ([38:15]): "Governor Youngkin's plan... is basically to tell those federal workers that they should call the unemployment office."

• Gubernatorial Race: The mismanagement has led to significant losses for the Republican party in polls, with Democratic candidate Abigail Spanberger leading by a substantial margin.

  Craig Spencer ([38:45]): "A new poll shows that the Republican lieutenant governor is losing to former Democratic Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger by 15 points."

• Abigail Spanberger's Perspective: As a contender for the Democratic nomination, Spanberger emphasizes the need for leadership that genuinely supports Virginians amidst federal workforce disruptions.

  Abigail Spanberger ([38:48]): "It's outrageous that the governor is not standing up for Virginians or Virginia."

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6. Ongoing Legal Battles Over Foreign Aid Funding

Timestamp: [45:15]

The show concludes with an update on a high-stakes legal battle concerning the Trump administration's refusal to comply with court orders to resume foreign aid funding.

• Supreme Court Involvement: After lower courts upheld orders to restart funding, the Supreme Court temporarily stayed the ruling, delaying immediate compliance and leaving critical aid programs in limbo.

  Craig Spencer ([47:23]): "The Supreme Court has responded... they do not have to meet the midnight deadline... the court will make the final call."

• Impact on Public Health: Delays in funding jeopardize ongoing disease prevention and treatment programs, exacerbating public health risks both domestically and internationally.

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Notable Quotes

• Craig Spencer ([01:02]): "Bubonic plague is an infectious disease that kills you quickly. You get it from a bacteria that is carried by rodents."

• Craig Spencer ([16:55]): "Robert F. Kennedy Jr. really is Donald Trump's idea of the best person in the whole country to lead the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services."

• Craig Spencer ([26:50]): "USAID funds have never been back online. USAID has been frozen."

• Abigail Spanberger ([38:48]): "It's outrageous that the governor is not standing up for Virginians or Virginia."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Rachel Maddow Show underscores the profound consequences of political mismanagement on public health and safety. Through incisive analysis and expert commentary, Maddow and Spencer illuminate the critical failures within governmental institutions, the spread of misinformation, and the tangible impacts on communities across the United States. The discussions serve as a clarion call for accountability and informed leadership to navigate and rectify these burgeoning crises.

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For more detailed insights and updates, listeners are encouraged to tune into future episodes of The Rachel Maddow Show.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Craig Spencer]

You know, at a time when our country is so divided, at a time when there is very little on which Americans agree at all, even in terms of just the basic facts of life, at a time when it seems like it is impossible to generalize at all about a thing being bad or a thing being good, can we all agree, I hereby posit can we all agree that one thing that's bad is the bubonic plague. Now admit it, you thought I was going to say Nazis there, didn't you? I know, I know. But we're now at the point in US Politics where that can no longer be the go to example for thing we all agree is bad. So I'm going to try to reset a new baseline for us here in 2025 in the United States of America. Is there anyone out there who does not agree or who doesn't get that the Bubonic plague is a bad thing? The Bubonic plague has its own era in human history, the Black Death years. There was an eight year period in the later part of the Middle ages in the 1300s when bubonic plague ripped through Europe, it killed two thirds of the entire human population of Europe. In eight years, it killed 25 million people. Bubonic plague is an infectious disease that kills you quickly. You get it from a bacteria that is carried by rodents. They call it the Black Death because You get huge swollen lymph nodes, and then you start turning black from gangrene. I mean, literally, it's the worst thing in the world. It's the worst plague to have ever afflicted humankind in all of human history. And you can still get it. You can still get it the same way people got it during the 1300s in the black Death years. You get it by contact with rodents that are carrying this particular bacterium. It's not common for people to get bubonic plague anymore, but it does happen, particularly in a few specific spots in the world. So over the last few years, for example, you might have occasionally seen alarming headlines like this one. A couple ate raw marmot believed to have health benefits, then they died of the plague. Or this one, as bubonic plague kills another man in Mongolia, Russia starts mass vaccination against black death. Or this one, from roughly around the same time, quote, russia cracks down on marmot hunting after bubonic plague alert. And actually, I should mention all those stories had to do with Mongolia, specifically with people getting bubonic plague because of contact with marmots in Mongolia. Marmots are basically big squirrels. They look like groundhogs. They're very cute, but they're big squirrels. And sadly, they are among the rodent species that can carry the bubonic plague. In fact, in some marmot populations in some parts of Asia, bubo bubonic plague is endemic. It's really widespread in the population of those animals. So after incidents like these ones in 2019 and 2020 that occasioned those headlines that I just showed you, Mongolia had, like a dozen suspected cases of bubonic plague, and people had started dying. And so in Mongolia a few years ago, they banned the hunting of marmots to try to stop people from coming into contact with marmots, to try to stop a new tide of literally the worst thing on earth, which is bubonic plague. Because, again, we all agree, right, that bubonic plague is bad. And that is why it's illegal to hunt marmots in Mongolia. Because just within the past few years, people have been catching bubonic plague thanks to contact with marmots, and. And they have been dying from it. Those news articles I showed you, that was incidents documented, people getting bubonic play because of contact with marmots in mongolia. That was 2019. 2020. In 2022, guess who went to Mongolia to do a hunting show about killing and eating Mongolian marmots? Ah, yeah, not the blonde son, the other one. He has a magazine and a social media company. I think it is about hunting. And this video, posted online by his company in 2022, is captioned by his company, quote, Don Trump Jr. In eats a rat in Mongolia. Hey, that's not a rat. That's a marmot. So this is a little bit gross. Fair warning. But here's me showing my work. Here goes. Here's me proving it.

[Elon Musk]

Guys, I'm gonna go collect some firewood.

[Craig Spencer]

Okay.

[Rachel Maddow]

So we're gonna experience a pretty cool Mongolian tradition. Marmot is, I guess, a delicacy.

[Craig Spencer]

Is it a delicacy? I guess. I guess. I guess it's a delicacy, I guess. Did you do any reading? Do you understand what's going on here? What exactly you're doing here on film?

[Rachel Maddow]

Again, it's one of those traditions, you know, they're totally true delicacy, but actually is like illegal contraband. So I got to be really clear. You were with me the whole time. We did not shoot. It's kind of counter bandy.

[Craig Spencer]

It's kind of contrabandy. But that's so cool. The reason it's contrabandy to hunt marmot in Mongolia, the reason that government made it illegal to hunt marmot and they tell you not to meet, not to eat marmot meat or certainly to handle any raw marmot stuff, is because again, bubonic plague, which people keep getting and dying from exactly there with exactly those animals in exactly those circumstances. Now, I raise this because while Mongolia and its adjacent geographic neighbors like Russia have had to take some form food safety regulation steps to try to stop the bubonic plague from having a 21st century resurgence, the United States similarly, for a long time now, has seen it as just a function of good government to do what we can to regulate food safety that is a core function of the US Government. Last week, the person in charge of food safety for the US Government, the Deputy Commissioner of Human Foods, Deputy Commissioner for Human foods at the U.S. food and Drug Administration, that person resigned in protest of what the Trump administration was doing to his agency, stating that the widespread and what he described as, quote, indiscriminate firings of food safety staffers at the FDA showed, quote, disdain for the people who do that work, disdain for the people with highly technical expertise, the professionals who do food safety work for the US Government. He said it would therefore be, quote, fruitless for me to continue in this role. So the Trump administration initiated indiscriminate mass firings. According to the head of the human Foods program, the head of food safety for the US Government. He says those indiscriminate mass firings decimated human food safety responsibilities within the U.S. government. And so the head of food safety for the US Government resigned in protest. And I tell you that part of the story as well, because the Trump administration has now chosen a new person to head up food safety for the American people. The guy who left in protest was a lifelong scientific expert in the field. The guy who the Trump administration brought in to replace him is not. He is a man who works at a law firm in Florida, not a scientist. But he is a hunting buddy of Donald Trump Jr. And I should say there's no indication that he participated in Donald Trump Jr's genius bubonic plague marmot meat eating adventure. But that's his hunting friend. This was first reported in Vanity Fair. The guy they've put in charge of food safety hunts turkeys with Don Jr. Don Jr. Again thinks that was a rat he ate in Mongolia. And why is that illegal anyway? But now Don Jr. S hunting friend will be in charge of American food safety among the more than 1,000 people the Trump administration has indiscriminately fired from the FDA. Yesterday. And today we've started getting reports that. Oops. Once again, they've been scrambling to now try to unfire some of them, including the people they fired who work in food safety. Barely a week after mass firings at the fda, some staffers received unexpected news. Beginning Friday night, FDA employees overseeing medical devices, food ingredients and other key areas received calls and emails notifying them that their recent terminations had been, quote, rescinded, effective immediately. FDA staffers who were reinstated said their immediate supervisors received no explanation or advance notice on the decisions. Instead, staffers received calls or emails from the FDA's Office of Talent Solutions informing them that their access to FDA computer systems and offices had been restored. The emails concluded. We are so grateful to still have you working for the FDA and serving the American public. Exclamation point. The exclamation point was part of the email. A week earlier, the same employees had received emails stating that they were not fit for continued employment. Feeling good about the stability here? Feeling good about being in safe hands with this administration and the solid grounds on which they're making purely merit based decisions on firing and also on hiring. So anybody else you'd like? Mr. I think that was a rat I ate in Mongolia. Is there anybody else you'd like to recommend for American safe food? Handling recommendations. Contraband. Cool. The FDA is currently handling a recall of frozen shakes that were sent to Assisted living facilities and hospitals because there's listeria contamination. That listeria outbreak has sickened 38 people in 21 states. 12 people have died already. The FDA is handling that. Recall that outbreak. The lives of potentially millions of people are on the line in the PEPFAR program, which the Trump administration also has just randomly cut off and then said they restarted it, but it is still not restarted. PEPFAR is the program that was started under the George, in the George W. Bush administration. It provides HIV treatment to literally millions of people around the world who are HIV positive. Stopping that program without warning in the middle of people's treatment courses, which is exactly what the Trump administration did. That means cutting HIV positive people off in the middle of their course of treatment, which not only puts them on a track to die, it also begs begs for the development of multidrug resistant HIV that can't be treated even if you want it to. The Trump administration cannot defend killing off this HIV treatment program, pepfar. So they keep saying, oh, PEPFAR isn't a problem. We've given it a waiver. It's restarted. We're not cutting this funding. Actually, we might have initially cut it, but we're not cutting it anymore. The program has not restarted. The funds are not flowing. Treatment is not being administered. And protesters today who know that made a huge ruckus and got arrested in large numbers today in the House Cannon office building to show their outrage and to bring some attention to the fact that PEPFAR really is still not happening. The funds are still stopped. We're going to be watching the courts on that tonight and tomorrow because as we reported this time last night, a federal judge in Washington set tonight at one minute to midnight as the deadline by which the Trump administration must restart the funding it cut off of this kind. The government is ordered to restart that funding by midnight tonight. We shall see. Today at a Cabinet meeting, they appear to have convened sort of mostly just for the cameras. At the White House, attention turned to the exploding outbreak of measles that started in West Texas and has now spread at least into New Mexico. It's now at least 124 cases. A child has died. An unvaccinated school age child was hospitalized as of last week in the Lubbock area. That child has now passed away. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Really is Donald Trump's idea of the best person in the whole country to lead the U.S. department of Health and Human Services, which is responsible for dealing with this kind of crisis. Secretary Kennedy today attempted to give an update on the measles outbreak in front of the cameras. But almost every single thing he said about it was wrong. He said, quote, it's not unusual. We have measles outbreaks every year. Like this is a normal thing. I should mention for context, in all of last year we had 285 measles cases in the United States. The year before that, for the whole year in the whole country we had 59 cases, 59 cases, 59 cases. The whole country, the whole year. This one outbreak is already 124cases and growing explosively and a child has died. This is the largest measles outbreak in Texas in at least 30 years. Inexplicably, in his string of untrue statements about this ongoing measles epidemic that he is now responsible for fixing, Secretary Kennedy also misstated the number of deaths. We are following the measles epidemic every day. I think there's 124 people who have contracted measles at this point, mainly in Gaines County, Texas. Mainly, we're told in the Mennonite community there are two people who have died. But we're watching it and There are about 20 people hospitalized, mainly for quarantine. We're watching it. We put out a post on it yesterday and we're going to continue to follow it. Local health authorities say it is not two people who have died, it is one person who has died, an unvaccinated school aged child. Why he thinks it's two people who have died and not one, we don't know. Also, the people who are hospitalized are not being hospitalized for quarantine as he described it, which makes it seems like they're fine. They're just being kept in a room, right? No, they've been hospitalized for respiratory distress and other serious and potential fatal symptoms of measles, which can kill you and which has already killed a child in this outbreak. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Wrote a whole book about the measles in which he said that, quote, measles outbreaks have been fabricated to create fear. He wrote at the website of his anti vaccine group that getting measles is actually good for you. He says it's good for your heart to get measles reduces the risk of some cancers and heart disease and stuff. It's great. Donald Trump put him in charge of health and human services for the whole country and that means he's in charge of taking care of this explosive measles outbreak in West Texas and New Mexico. Good call. Safe hands. Donald Trump has also handed over what appears to be control of most of the government to his top campaign donor, who at today's cabinet meeting was invited to stand up in his baseball hat and talk about whatever, whereupon he said something he thought would crack everybody up about the hemorrhagic fever known as Ebola.

[Rachel Maddow]

We will make mistakes. We won't be perfect, but when we make a mistake, we'll fix it very quickly. So, for example, with usaid, one of the things we accidentally canceled very briefly was Ebola, Ebola prevention. I think we all want Ebola prevention.

[Craig Spencer]

He's expecting the other people in the room to like, chip in and laugh because it's funny that that was an accident. Those remarks from the president's top campaign donor, Anibola, when he said that we fixed it, we reinstated Ebola, he said there was no interruption, put it right back in place. Those assertions from him today appear to be wrong, just like the false assertions that pepfar, the HIV treatment program, has been turned back on when it hasn't. The Ebola prevention efforts that Elon Musk was somehow allowed to turn off, he said today they were turned right back on with no interruption. Those efforts have not been turned back on. From the Washington Post tonight, quote, current and former USAID officials said that Musk was wrong. USAID's Ebola prevention efforts have been largely halted since Musk and his Doge allies moved last month to gut the Global Assistance Agency and freeze its outgoing payments. The teams and contractors that would be deployed to fight an Ebola outbreak have been dismantled. While the Trump administration did issue a waiver to allow USAID to respond to an Ebola outbreak in Uganda last month, partner organizations were not promptly paid for their work and USAID own efforts were sharply curtailed. Quote There have been no efforts to turn on anything in prevention of Ebola and other diseases, said Nidhi Buri, who served as a senior USAID official during the Biden administration and who oversaw USAID's response to health care outbreaks, quote Buri said her former USAID team of 60 people working on disease response had been cut as of earlier this week to about six staffers. Used to be 60. Now it's six other current and former USAID officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal operations, agreed with Burry's assessment. One current official said there was a waiver for Ebola, but USAID funds have never been back online. USAID has been frozen. Staff and money that blithe and apparently false assertion about Ebola. Oops, we accidentally turned it off, but then we turned it back on. It was no problem. That false assertion from Elon Musk also earned a sharp response from Dr. Craig Spencer. He's an emergency room physician whose name you might remember because he himself is a survivor of Ebola, the last time there was a multi country outbreak of that disease. He said today that the Trump administration's actions, the actions that Musk was bragging about today, quote, hubbled or directly dismantled the response structures needed to end Ebola outbreaks abroad and protect us here in the US that emergency room doctor and Ebola survivor joins us live here next. Stay with us.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Rachel Maddow]

MSNBC presents Main justice each week on their podcast, veterans lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.

[Abigail Spanberger]

The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy.

[Elon Musk]

I think what we are seeing is.

[Craig Spencer]

Project 2025 in action.

[Rachel Maddow]

This is it coming to fruition. Main justice subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content. We will make mistakes. We won't be perfect, but when we make mistakes, we'll fix it very quickly. So for example, with usaid, one of the things we accidentally canceled very briefly was Ebola. Ebola prevention. I think we all want Ebola prevention. So we restored the Ebola prevention immediately and there was no interruption.

[Craig Spencer]

That's not true. Today. Donald Trump's Top campaign donor claimed during a weird like filmed for TV cabinet meeting that although he had accidentally, in his role as Donald Trump's top campaign donor, ended all Ebola prevention efforts of the US Government. After they realized that's what had happened, it was restarted. It was just a very brief interruption and it all, or not even an interruption, it was very briefly stopped but then restarted without interruption. People who actually work on these matters for the US Government and in this field say none of this is true. Public health experts, including current and former USAID official, say that the Ebola prevention efforts were hobbled, that they've not been restarted. In 2014, you might remember there was an outbreak of Ebola in West Africa. Doctors from the United States went to countries like guinea to go track cases and treat patients. A doctor named Craig Spencer was one of those doctors who responded to that outbreak. And he became the first person in New York City to test positive himself for Ebola in October 2014 after he was abroad treating Ebola. Ebola patients in guinea with Doctors Without Borders. Ebola has a really high mortality rate. It kills more than half the people it infects. In Dr. Spencer's case, he had 19 days in the hospital, but he survived. Today he wrote this in response to Elon Musk's remarks about Ebola prevention being accidentally stopped, but then started back up again with no interruption. He said, quote, On January 29th this year, Uganda reported an Ebola outbreak. Normally, the US would have quickly sent one of our Ebola experts to help the response, but this time we didn't because we couldn't, because this administration wouldn't let them go right when this outbreak was declared. Normally, the US Would have helped set up border screening and other measures on the ground, but this time we didn't. Normally, we would have spoken with the WHO about helping end the outbreak, but this time we didn't because CDC staff weren't even allowed to talk to them. Joining us now is Dr. Craig Spencer. He's associate professor of health services policy and practice at Brown University School of Public Health. He's also the New York City emergency room doctor who survived Ebola after treating Ebola patients in guinea with Doctors Without Borders nearly about a decade ago. Now, Dr. Spencer, I really appreciate you being here tonight. Thank you.

[Elon Musk]

Good to see you again.

[Craig Spencer]

So it's always good to see you because you had Ebola. And so anytime that I see you, I feel like I have hope that these sorts of things can be survived these horrific diseases. I have to ask what your reaction was to seeing Elon Musk today bring up Ebola, Ebola unprompted, laugh about it, and then suggest that while he had accidentally cut off all US Government efforts to combat it, everything was fine now because it had all been restarted without interruption.

[Elon Musk]

Well, Rachel, I was remarkably confused because for the past month I have been talking to people who normally would have responded to this Ebola outbreak in Uganda, the Marburg outbreak in Tanzania, and guess what? They didn't. For the last decade, I have followed every single outbreak of viral hemorrhagic fevers like Ebola. I know everyone that is doing this. I know where they're responding. I know the people in Uganda at the Ministry of Health. I've heard from people who normally would be supported by our country, by our government, to set up border screening, to do the contact tracing on the ground. They're not getting paid. Countries are asking them to work for free because USAID normally would have supported them here in this country alone. We normally would have sent people almost immediately. Once these outbreaks are declared, guess what? We didn't do this. And the result is right now, people around the world are looking to the United States saying, what are your commitments? What is true about your support? What Elon Musk said today was just categorically untrue. We did not get rid of Ebola prevention and then put it back in place. Elon Musk and Doge were responsible for actively and actually stripping off the letters of the USAID, the agency from its headquarters in Washington, D.C. on the first day of this administration, Donald Trump signed an executive order to pull the United States out of the World Health Organization. Just very recently, hundreds of CDC workers, those frontline doctors and epidemiologists who would be responding to outbreaks like Ebola abroad, Ebola in the United States and other infectious threats that you've just highlighted, 750 of those people were let go. Regardless of what Elon Musk and others say, we have set ourselves up to be very sorry for an infectious threat. Maybe next week, maybe next month, maybe next year. But I've been saying over and over again we will regret this.

[Craig Spencer]

Craig, some of this drama is playing out right now as we speak in Washington. A federal judge ruled yesterday that the Trump administration had until midnight tonight to restart foreign aid funding that had been appropriated by Congress that they were legally required to be releasing and that those things needed to be those funds needed to be released. That process needed to be open by midnight tonight. It went to an appeals court this evening that said the judge's ruling stands and Effectively, those billions of dollars should be released by midnight tonight. The Trump administration is taking it to the Supreme Court. They're also now saying that those funds are no longer under review, but that they are formally canceled. They will never be released started. And they are, in other words, pulling out every possible stop up to and including a trip to the Supreme Court tonight to try to say that USAID is gone institutionally, effectively, so that whatever funding programs they want to say, whatever programs they want to be able to say they restarted, USAID won't be there to effectuate any of this stuff. Can you help our audience understand the difference between funding in the abstract and having an agency that actually effectuates the program that funding is for?

[Elon Musk]

Absolutely what is happening right now as they're trying to play out the clock to the point where USAID officials and funding all of these other things that we've built up over decades to do the incredible work of disease surveillance and responding to Ebola outbreaks and every other thing like HIV around the world, they're trying to wait until all of that is completely destroyed so it cannot be put back together again. Now, let me be very clear. There are reasonable reasons for people to think that USAID and the WHO and other agencies should be reformed, but we should not do what we did overnight. We have left Americans stranded abroad. We have left 20 million people around the world without access to HIV treatment, which they were recently getting through PEPFAR, which is largely supported by USAID. Without these services in place, people around the world are less safe and less healthy. And that increases the risk to people here in the United States. USAID's tagline has been from the American people, but in reality, it is for the American people. And everyone needs to understand that threats and health problems in other places can soon become problems here. Without the usaid, without funding those incredible people that are selfless and have dedicated their professional life to this work, without people from the WHO and cdc, we will all be less safe. And again, I promise you, we will regret this.

[Craig Spencer]

Dr. Craig Spencer, a man who knows of what he speaks, associate professor of Health Services Policy and practice at Brown University School of Public Health, a survivor himself of Ebola. Dr. Spencer, it is really good to see you. Thank you for time tonight.

[Elon Musk]

Thank you, Rachel.

[Craig Spencer]

All right, much more news ahead. Stay with us.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Craig Spencer]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Craig Spencer]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Craig Spencer]

We're seeing a really radical effort to change the American system of government.

[Rachel Maddow]

Sign up for Trump's first 100 days at msnbc.com TRUMP100.

[Craig Spencer]

The state of Virginia has huge numbers of people who work for the federal government. More than 145,000 people in the state of Virginia work for the federal government. Virginia's economy also benefits more from federal contracts than any other state does, more than $100 billion a year in 2023, more than any other state in the country in recent days. Since the Trump administration started randomly firing huge numbers of people indiscriminately from the federal government, started cutting off federal funding that's been legally appropriated by Congress. We have been watching Virginia's Republican pro Trump Governor Glenn Youngkin tie himself up in knots very clearly, not quite sure how to handle this matter, saying in one breath that he absolutely supports Trump and everything he's doing, that this is what voters asked for after all. And then in the next breath trying to say that he has so much empathy for Virginians who may be experiencing, in his words, quote, some disruption. When we last left this saga, when the Doge act started falling very heavily on federal workers in the state of Virginia, the governor's response was similar. You know, defend Trump, tell Virginians that he feels deep concern for them. While still saying he supports Trump. The governor said he wanted it known that we understand and we're here to help. The state will have the ability to support federal workers through any job dislocation, he said. But the governor, quote, declined to provide details about what kind of help the state is prepared to offer. That's where we left the story last week. Well, we got some of these details now from Governor Youngkin. Governor Youngkin's plan to help federal workers who have been hurt by what Trump is doing is basically to tell those federal workers that they should call the unemployment office. Here's a headline, quote, youngkin offers constituents Insulting job fair as Musk purges Virginian federal workers. Governor Youngkin's version of we're here to help is basically a job board that he has posted online and a toolkit to help you apply for unemployment and that purports to help you make decisions about trying to scramble to keep your health insurance somehow even though you've been fired. Governor is also offering resume writing tips because don't worry, there's plenty of jobs. That is Republican Governor Glenn Youngkin's advice to the people of his state. No criticism at all of the potentially illegal mass firings of Virginia residents and the Trump administration effectively stealing money from Virginia contractors after Congress approved and agreed to spend that money. No criticism of that at all. Just a statement that he understands. This sure is painful, but this is what you asked for. And by the way, you should call the unemployment office. Good luck getting through Virginia. Democrats in the legislature responded with this, quote, glenn Youngkin's message of empathy. Update your resume. Virginians aren't looking for career tips. They are looking for a governor who will fight for their livelihoods. The thing about Virginia is that it is a very, very much a purple state. It's one that holds elections on off years. So this year, 2025, they're electing a whole new legislature and a new governor. It means that Virginia's elections this year are going to be a unique bellwether for what voters think about how the country is going under Donald Trump. Governor Youngkin himself is term limited, so he can't run again, but his Republican lieutenant governor is the likely Republican candidate for governor. That's her on the left. On the right, that's Democratic Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger, who is the likely candidate for the Democrats. A new poll out from Virginia's Roanoke College shows that the Republican lieutenant governor is losing to former Democratic Congresswoman abigail spanberger by 15 points. By 15 points this is an early poll. It's got a margin of error of 4.7%. Take that as you will. But this 15 point poll for Abigail Spanberger also follows a poll last month from Virginia Commonwealth University in which Spanberger was up by 10 points. That followed another one by Christopher Newport University University that had Spanberger up by five points. Did I mention this is a purple state with an incumbent Republican governor and elections this year, an incumbent Republican governor whose lieutenant governor is running to succeed him, but the Democratic challenger for that governorship is now leading in the polls by 5, 10, 15 points. I think it has to help that Republican Governor Glenn Youngkin is absolutely flailing when it comes to any sort of response to what Trump is doing to wreak havoc for more than 100,000 people in that state whose lives have been turned upside down by Donald Trump and Elon Musk. Joining us now is former congresswoman, current contender to be the Democratic nominee for Virginia governor, Abigail Spanberger. Congresswoman Spanberger, it's really nice to see you. Thank you for joining us tonight.

[Abigail Spanberger]

Thank you for having me.

[Craig Spencer]

So that's a little bit of a surface look at some of what's been going on in your state. I've been watching Governor Youngkin closely because I know he's a facile politician. He's good with words, he's good at pivoting. He's sort of nimble. He seems absolutely flat on his back when it comes to how to talk to Virginians about what Trump is doing to people in your state. It seems from the outside that that's changing the political weather in Virginia. But I wanted to know how you saw.

[Abigail Spanberger]

Well, what I know to be true is the governor and lieutenant governor, they're clearly not listening to Virginians because everywhere I go across our commonwealth, people are bringing to me their deep, deep concerns about what this administration is doing. I was at the grocery store with my husband picking up some last minute items. And I had an IRS employee and his spouse come up and talk to us about their concerns. I was in a parking lot in Northern Virginia. I had a military officer talk talk to me about the impact he's seeing in his office. I had a military spouse in Hampton Roads talk to me about the concern in her husband's office. I've heard from medical professionals at the VA in southwest Virginia worry that they might lose their job. I cannot go anywhere without having Virginians bring to me their concerns. And it's not just the federal employees who are potentially losing their jobs. It's small business owners. It's other members of our community and our economy who are already starting to feel the hurt and the pain of this chaos or who worry that it is imminently coming for them. And it's outrageous that the governor is not standing up for Virginians or Virginia.

[Craig Spencer]

The governor is not standing up by saying, you know, stop doing these things that are hurting people in this state. Stop doing things that are hurting the economy of this state. Stop doing things that are hurting these individuals of the type of just described. But the other thing that's happening, and this is a thing that I justi just don't know where this goes politically, is that you've got Governor Youngkin telling Virginians who are bringing him those same kinds of concerns. He's telling them you voted for it. This is what we wanted as a country. This is essentially the good news about what we're getting from Donald Trump. Similarly, your likely Republican opponent in this governor's race, the lieutenant governor right now has said Virginians will be all right, that there's nothing to worry about here. We're all going to be all right. These cuts are no big deal. That to me seems like a message that you might be able to sell in the media. But so many people seem to me to be affected by this in Virginia specifically that, that it seems to me they're going to have to change that message. Or are people buying it?

[Abigail Spanberger]

Well, and Rachel, people aren't buying it. The reality is if you are an NIH researcher because you want to bring your knowledge, your scientific inquir to the cause of trying to save lives into the future, you don't want to have your governor tell you to get on LinkedIn. If you are an IRS worker who is gearing up for a busy tax season, you do not want your governor saying go to. Indeed, if you are a person, many of them veterans themselves who work the suicide prevention lines or who work at the VA supporting their fellow veterans, you do not want your governor saying, no, no, it'll be fin driven job that you've believed in, that you've spent day in and day out devoting yourself to. You'll be fine. You'll find something else. It is absolutely out of step, not just with the economy of Virginia, not just with our needs on the ground, but it's out of step with the fact that the more than 145,000 Virginians who devote themselves to public service do it out of mission. They do it because they believe in the service that they are rendering to our community and to our country and the Governor and the Lieutenant governor do not recognize that service and they degrade it when they say you can simply just go find another job. For so many people. This is not a job. This is a calling. This is how they give back to our community. And if the governor and the Lieutenant Governor are not going to stand up for those individuals who want to serve our neighbors every single day, then they should at least recognize the incredible economic impact that is coming if they don't stand up. The University of Virginia put out a study just this week. A 10% cut in Virginia's federal workforce is about 39,000 people and it is $6 billion in lost economic output in our state. It is unthinkable what is happening. And we need everyone to be raising the alarm bells, ringing the alarm bells, because this is hurting real people and this is hurting. And frankly, this is why I'm running for governor, because I want to ensure that every day, whether it's this or lowering costs or ensuring Virginia's on the path towards having the best public schools in the nation, addressing the housing affordability and the housing shortage crisis impacting our commonwealth or the real issues of safety in our community. I want to serve Virginians. And that means at times standing up, even when it is hard. And that is all that Virginians are asking of our govern. We're not seeing it. We've got elections this year. We are running around our commonwealth making clear that Virginians deserve so much more. They deserve a governor who's standing up for them. That's exactly who I will be. And I'm grateful for the opportunity to stand up for Virginians tonight. And anybody else who wants to join us, please go to my website, Abigail spanberger.com.

[Craig Spencer]

Former Congresswoman and CIA veteran Abigail Spanberger, candidate for the Democratic nomination for governor. Virginia. As you mentioned, that race is this year. That is a 2025 governor's race. Representative Sandberger, I really appreciate your time. This situation in Virginia is going to be a really big cleaving into the state's economy and culture. We'd love to have you back to talk about it more as those effects become clear. Thanks for being with us tonight.

[Abigail Spanberger]

Thank you for having me.

[Craig Spencer]

All right, we'll be right back. Stay with this. Okay, here's an update on a very, very, very high stakes legal drama that has been unfolding while we have been on the air tonight. Not a lawyer. Don't even play one on tv. But let me try to summarize what's just happened here. This is a big deal. Last night you might remember we reported on a dramatic courtroom showdown that happened in Washington in which a federal district court judge just raked a Trump administration lawyer over hot coals in court, demanding to know why the Trump administration had not complied with an earlier court order from that same judge that commanded the Trump administration to restart foreign aid funds that they had unilaterally cut off. The judge ruled from the bench yesterday, issued what's called a motion to enforce that told the Trump administration they really did not have a choice on this matter. That court order had to be respected. They had to restart that funding by midnight tonight. Well, today, the Trump administration went to the federal appeals court in Washington to try to have that ruling overturned. The appeals court said, no dice. We're letting that judge's order stand. You have to start those funds flowing by midnight. Well, since we have been on the air, the Trump administration went to the last court above that. They went to the U.S. supreme Court to ask the Supreme Court to overturn the judge's ruling so they won't have to release these frozen funds. Well, now, just in the last few minutes, the United States Supreme Court has weighed in. The Trump administration rushed to the Supreme Court ahead of this midnight deadline, this hour. The Supreme Court has responded. The court ordered the lower court ruling, quote, stayed pending further order of the undersigned or of the court. So what this means is that they do not have to meet the midnight deadline to restart those funds. But the Supreme Court says they've only got until Friday at noon to start briefing them on what's going on here. And then the Supreme Court will make the final call. Watch this space. All right, that's going to do it for me for now. But I will see you again tomorrow and every night this week at 9pm Eastern.

[Rachel Maddow]

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