← The Rachel Maddow Show
The Rachel Maddow Show
Democrats not immune from voter wrath as pressure to impede Trump mounts
00:43:16
Rachel Maddow reports on Republican legislators being confronted at town hall meetings by angry constituents who want them to resist Donald Trump's dismantling of the federal government. But Republicans aren't the only focus of voters' outrage as Democratic legislators are being confronted to be more aggressive in obstructing Trump. Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, top Democrat in the House, talks with Rachel Maddow about what Democrats are doing to get in Trump's way.
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- [00:00]
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- [00:29]
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Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC Original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:59]
Rachel Maddow
Thanks to At Home for joining us this hour. So there is a town in California called Yucca Valley. It's a beautiful place. It's located in the Mojave Desert and the good people of Yucca Valley have this man representing them in Congress. His name is J. Obernulti. He is a Republican. He was first elected to Congress just a couple of terms ago in 2020. Obernulti had a pretty easy reelection this year. His constituents sent their Republican Congressman back to Washington by big margin by more than 20 points. But although he had an easy ride in his district overall, this isn't a bright red county in California. Yucca Valley is in San Bernardino County. Biden won there in 2020 by 10 points. This past election, Trump just very narrowly won San Bernardino county just by a couple of points. So it's an interesting place. And over the weekend Congressman Obernolty held a town hall in his home district in that sort of purple interesting part of California and Yucca. And this is how it went pretty much right from the jump. My question to you as a member of Congress, which holds the purse? What are you going to do about Elon Musk? Stop the cuts and how do you feel about a unelected non confirmed.
- [02:42]
Congressman J. Obernulti
Balances of our nation?
- [02:50]
Hakeem Jeffries
Great question and I'm glad you asked it.
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Rachel Maddow
Oh, oh, the big at the end there. They almost know what he's gearing up to do, right? Remember, purple district barely went for Trump, but here's how Congressman Obernulti answered that question.
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Congressman J. Obernulti
Great question and I'm glad you asked it. Oh answer it.
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Frank Kendall
I am very glad someone is looking.
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Rachel Maddow
At all of the Waste.
- [03:46]
Congressman J. Obernulti
No more months. No more months. No more months. No more months. Do your job. Do your job. Do your job. Do your job. Do your job. Do your job. Do your job. Do your job. Do your job. Do your job.
- [04:16]
Hakeem Jeffries
It's not up to Musk.
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Congressman J. Obernulti
You're surrendering to billionaires, you coward. Voted for change in November.
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Rachel Maddow
He's almost proud of it. Right? I'll tell you this. The American people voted for change in November, and change is what they're getting. And then he gets shouted down by a couple hundred people booing him to his face, his constituents. If you're a Republican member of Congress continuing to carry water for this administration, continuing to defend what Donald Trump and his top campaign donor are doing to the United States government, this is perhaps not an unfamiliar vibe these days. I mean, we're seeing this at town halls all over the country. We're also seeing, you know, huge protests like these ones all over the country this weekend. There were protests all over the country this weekend marking the third anniversary of Russia invading Ukraine. People out there in the streets demonstrating their support for Ukraine, their opposition to Russia and its dictator, Vladimir Putin, even as the Trump administration switches sides in that war and now appears to be supporting Russia. There were also more protests over the weekend at Tesla dealerships in places like Seattle and Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and New York and San Francisco. There's also a very dramatic protest in Yosemite national park this weekend. Federal workers sending up a classic sign of distress, American flag upside down at the top of El Capitan. A way of letting the country know that things are not okay. We're going to be talking later on in the show about this big, dramatic show of force we are seeing all over the country and about this real, I think, shock to the system for Republicans who are daring to speak to their own constituents. But to be clear, Democratic members of Congress aren't necessarily finding it easy either. They are getting pushed really hard at their own town halls as well, at their own congressional offices, not because they're siding with Trump and his top campaign donor like Republicans are. No, Democrats are doing that. Democrats are getting pushed because even though they're in opposition to what Trump and Musk are doing, many Democratic. Republican, excuse me, many Democratic members of Congress around the country are finding out loud that their constituents think they're not doing enough. Yeah, being in opposition is one thing, but you're not doing enough to fight back. This was over the weekend, a town hall in Cincinnati held by Democratic Congressman Greg Landsman. Here was the local press coverage at a Cincinnati Town hall. A Democratic congressman is urged to be more confrontational. Another 300 or so people showed up in Hawaii on Saturday to put pressure on their Democratic congresswoman, Jill Talcuta. One constituent of the congresswoman telling her, quote, have a backbone. Please, please. This was just last week. Dramatic footage that ricocheted around the country from a town hall held by Democratic Congressman Paul Tonko.
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Congressman J. Obernulti
I saw you on TV at noaa. I saw you on TV at the Department of Education. What I'm saying is this. Somebody asked you what your red line was, and you said, you said that the time is always right to go. Does that mean the red line has already been crossed? Because I think it has. If you asked us to show Congressman Tonko, we will show up. We have to take the gloves off. We can't wait for protocol. They're not playing by the rules. We have to take it through them. When I saw you at those places, I saw you next to Maxine Waters, yet I was so proud that my representative was on the front line right there. But I thought about Jimmy Carter and I thought about John Lewis, and I know what John Lewis would have done. He would have gotten arrested that day. Make them. Make them outlaw you. We will stand behind you. We will be there with you. I will get arrested with you.
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Rachel Maddow
We have to take the gloves off. Americans pushing Republicans really hard, particularly when they try to defend Trump. But Americans also really pushing their Democratic members of Congress to do more, to fight harder against this White House and what feels like a real crisis in Washington. And that's happening not just to Democratic members of Congress. You're learning about for the first time here because I'm showing you tape from their town hall. It's happening to all the Democrats, including the Democratic leader in Washington, Hakeem Jeffries, leader of the House. This was outside his office in Brooklyn, New York, on Thursday. Hundreds of people calling on him to be more aggressive toward this White House, to stand up faster, to stand up more firmly, to fight harder against Trump and his top campaign donor. It happened to Leader Jeffries again the very next day in Oakland, California. This was outside an event where Congressman Jeffries was giving remarks. Hundreds of people gathered outside demanding that he do more. And I absolutely understand the sentiment, but what can he do? What does he believe is within his power? Joining us now is the man himself, Democratic leader in the House, Hakeem Jeffries. Leader Jeffries, it's a real honor to have you here tonight. Thank you so much for joining us.
- [10:04]
Frank Kendall
Good evening. Great to be with you.
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Rachel Maddow
So every day Now I feel like we're getting more and more tape and dramatic reportage from congressional town halls all around the country, seeing Republican members of Congress pressed by their own constituents, even by their own Republican constituents, about what Trump and Musk are doing that the public doesn't like. But we also see voters imploring Democrats and you specifically to fight harder, to not be nice, to break protocol, to get arrested, if that's what it takes. How are you hearing those calls? What can you tell voters tonight who say you could be doing more than you're doing?
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Frank Kendall
Well, I think we understand the passionate outcry that we are seeing all across the country as it relates to the flood of extremism that's being unleashed on the American people by this administration, by this president, by his allies like Elon Musk. And of course, it's creating chaos and confusion and crisis and it's corruption that's connected to it as well. And so we're going to continue to operate in an all hands on deck way. That's what we've said from the beginning. It means that we've got to push back aggressively in the Congress as we're doing. And certainly we'll have a budget fight that will be on the floor as early as tomorrow, where every single Democrat, I believe is going to stand in firm opposition to this GOP tax scam, which is all about rewarding their billionaire donors and wealthy corporations and undermining working class Americans by sticking it to them and cutting Medicaid and things that are important to their health, their safety and their economic well being. It's all hands on deck in the Congress, it's all hands on deck in the courts, and it's certainly all hands on deck in communities across the country. And you are seeing that kind of mobilization take place, as you've illustrated.
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Rachel Maddow
And I gotta say, the mobilization is a bottom up, very, very grassroots, very organic coast to coast uprising. And what they are pushing against is what's happening in Washington. But what they are trying to push up and push forward is you and your colleagues to try to further empower you and further inspire you by one way or another to find new tactics, to find new avenues to leverage. I mean, let's take this budget thing. You're going to expect this vote potentially as early tomorrow in the House. The Republicans margin in the House is razor thin. We know at least one Republican is planning on voting no on that budget. You say you think you'll have every Democrat voting no. You've also asked members of the Democratic caucus to meet tomorrow on the, on the, on the Capitol steps to try to make clear to the American people. Members of the House Democratic Caucus should join us on the east capitol steps at 12 noon tomorrow to make clear to the American people the stakes of what's happening. What are you planning for that event? What should the American public expect around this budget fight and how consequential it will be?
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Frank Kendall
Well, one of the things that's important is we have to tell the story of the everyday Americans who are at risk of dealing with the pain and the suffering that these extreme MAGA Republican proposals and cuts will unleash on them and the American people. If you just take, for instance, the proposal to cut as much as $1 trillion from Medicaid, if not more, in connection with the Republican budget resolution proposal that's going to hurt children, hurt everyday Americans with disabilities, it's going to hurt seniors, it's going to close hospitals, including in rural America. It's going to shut down nursing homes, it's going to hurt veterans and others who rely on Medicaid benefits. And so we've got to be able to tell that story, of course, with urgency, of course, on the floor of the House, certainly in committees. But we also have to take the case directly to the American people. And tomorrow at 12, that's exactly what we're going to do, having stories told through the voices of those Americans impacted the most. Listening I represent neighborhoods in central Brooklyn and beyond. I'm in those neighborhoods. I was there over the last few days, of course, and in other parts of the country. And so I understand that there's a lot of anxiety that has been caused. Communities that I represent in many ways, have been dealing with trauma and anxiety for a long period of time. And this is a moment where that anxiety, of course, has been heightened across America. And so we're going to continue to rise to the occasion to meet the moment. The next three weeks will be critically important because we have the budget fight this week. And then, of course, Donald Trump will be on the Hill next week. And then after that, we'll have to figure out where we're going to land in advance of the March 14 funding deadline. Three critical weeks to push back against the extremism and also to define ourselves as a party that actually wants to make life better for everyday Americans, drive down the high cost of living, solve problems for those hardworking American families who want us to give them a real shot at the American dream.
- [15:31]
Rachel Maddow
The case that you are making against Republican policies here is one that I hear and is cogent. And that plays to a greater or lesser extent, I think, all across this country. The other thing that Americans are stressed out about, though, right now is that policy doesn't feel like it's the main conversation right now. It feels like we are in the middle of a ketamine fueled, middle of the night autocratic power grab that is rendering Congress irrelevant, that's rendering policy irrelevant, and that's rendering the rule of law an afterthought, if not a joke to those who are planning on staying in power indefinitely without benefit of further elections. I mean, it is not about. I mean, it is about a bad budget. That's one of the things you have to contend with. But the fight here feels like it's on a different scale than the kinds of legislative point, counterpoint stuff that I think Democrats and Republicans are used to fighting over. And I think what Americans are sort of clamoring for is to hear from you personally, as the senior Democrat in Washington, in the House, where the margins are so narrow, to hear from you that you understand the scale of the threat and you have ideas about how to interrupt what feels like something that we have not experienced since the Civil War in terms of the threat to our republic.
- [16:55]
Frank Kendall
Well, it's certainly the case that we understand the scale of the threat. That can't be doubted. The cbc, which I'm a part of, definitively understands the scale of the threat. Our communities have been under siege, as you pointed out, since before the Civil War. I'm a direct descendant of those very communities. So we understand the struggle, the history, the strength of people like John Lewis, which we're going to channel. That's my experience. That's my personal experience, that's my family's experience. And so we understand that. And as a caucus, it's definitively the case that we understand that. Listen, we launched the Rapid Response Task Force and Litigation Working Group. It's going to be led by Joe Negus and of course, a brilliant constitutional lawyer, Jamie Raskin, to be able to respond to and work with our allies like Tish James and others in part of what we are responding to. Listen, Elon Musk and Donald Trump, they're flooding the zone in part to create distress, to create a sense of invincibility and inevitability. But the reality is there have been more than 75 different lawsuits that have been filed by democracy reform groups, civil rights reform groups, by attorney generals like Tish James and others. And we're winning in court. They're losing more than 35 different unconstitutional and unlawful executive orders and administrative actions have been challenged. And they're not winning those cases in terms of the Trump administration. They're losing over and over and over again. That's been a forceful pushback. And that, of course, will continue. The congressional battles will continue and the mobilization in the communities will continue.
- [18:44]
Rachel Maddow
Does it help? Does it advance Democrats ability to stand up against Trump and Musk and what's happening in Washington, to have people at these town halls, to have people protesting in various symbolic and important places, either that represent the government or that represent some of the forces that are at work right now within our government, Just people showing up and doing direct action, peaceful, nonviolent direct action, to try to put steel in your spine, among others. Does it help or is it more of a hindrance to you?
- [19:16]
Frank Kendall
Well, listen, public sentiment is everything. As Abraham Lincoln once said, with it, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed. I don't think anyone needs additional steel put in their spine. Let's be clear about that. And I think, you know, the House Democrats under the leadership of Nancy Pelosi during the prior Trump administration, continuing to where we are at this moment, are going to continue to push back forcefully, using every tool available. Now, I think it does help, for instance, that our House Republican colleagues are held accountable. Rachel, you appropriately mentioned we've got the narrowest majority that any party has had in the Congress since before the Great depression. Narrowest majority, 218 Republicans, 215 Democrats. The Democrats are holding together. We're holding together, for instance, on this record Republican budget, which is a betrayal of working class Americans, and cuts, the Medicaid cuts, the snap cuts, the veterans benefits. That's not theoretical. That hurts real people that I represent and that every single member of the House Democratic Caucus represents. That's not a theoretical fight. That's a real fight. But here's the thing. On any given issue like the budget, we only need three, not all 218 Republicans. We only need three to do the right thing for their constituents. And so the activity that we've seen over the last few days of the last week or so, I think is going to let the Republicans know that no one is going to remove the spotlight from them. They shouldn't be able to escape accountability. And as Democrats, we're going to make sure that they don't.
- [21:09]
Rachel Maddow
Democratic leader in the House, Hakeem Jeffries. Leader Jeffries, it is a real honor to have you here. I know that your time is valuable. Come back anytime, sir. I'd love to talk to you anytime you can stand it. Thank you so much.
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Frank Kendall
Thank you so much.
- [21:22]
Rachel Maddow
All right. I'm going to take a little point of personal privilege here just for a moment if it is okay with you. You may have already heard about changes that have been announced at MSNBC over the last couple of days. The new president of our network made it official today. Some of our shows are moving to different time slots or expanding or going away altogether in primetime. Just so you know, I am here five days a week for the first hundred days of Trump's presidency as planned. And as planned, I will go back to just Mondays after that. That is not changing. What is changing is that the show Alex Wagner tonight is not coming back at nine after the first hundred days. Instead, Alex will be a senior political analyst for MSNBC and Jen Psaki will start hosting the 9pm hour all the other nights except for Mondays. So that's a big change. An even bigger programming change is at 7pm 7pm Eastern where Joy Reid's show, the Readout ended tonight. And Joy is not taking a different job in that network. She is leaving the network altogether. And that is very, very, very hard to take. I am 51 years old. I have been gainfully employed Since I was 12 and I have had so many different kinds of jobs. You wouldn't believe me if I told you. But in all of the jobs I have had, in all of the years I have been alive, there is no colleague for whom I have had more affection and more respect than Joy Reid. I love everything about her. I have learned so much from her. I have so much more to learn from her. I do not want to lose her as a colleague here at msnbc. And personally, I think it is a bad mistake to let her walk out the door. It is not my call and I understand that. But that's what I think I will tell you. It is also unnerving to see that on a network where we've got two, count em, two non white hosts in primetime. Both of our non white hosts in primetime are losing their shows, as is Katie Fang on the weekend. And that feels worse than bad. No matter who replaces them. That feels indefensible and I do not defend it. But there's just one other piece of it that you should know from your side of the TV screen. You will mostly see changes in terms of who's in the anchor chair and actually everybody who's going to be in anchor chairs from here on out are great colleagues and great at what they do. And you are not going to be disappointed in who's on our air and what you're going to be seeing. But one thing you cannot necessarily see is that the people who get our shows on the air, they're really being put through the wringer. Dozens of producers and staffers, including some who are among the most experienced and most talented and most specialist producers in the building, are facing being laid off. They're being invited to reapply for new jobs. That has never happened at this scale in this way before when it comes to programming changes, presumably because it's not the right way to treat people and it's inefficient and it's unnecessary and it kind of drops the bottom out of whether or not people feel like this is a good place to work. And so we don't generally do things that way. Maybe all of our folks, including most of the people who are getting this very show on the air right now, maybe they will all get new jobs here, and I hope they. But in the meantime, being put in this kind of limbo, the anxiety and the discombobulation is off the charts. At a time when this job already is extra stressful and difficult. It is not news for me to tell you that the press and freedom of the press are under attack in a way that is really, it's a big deal for our country. It's very visceral for us here. I know that the business of the press is not an easy thing and I know that no job is forever. But I think I'm safe in saying for all of us anchors who, you know, through the tv, please know that what pains us the most is not what happens to us. It is what happens to our co workers on whom we depend and who you don't necessarily know. But we respect and love them and depend on them. And did I mention we respect them. This is a difficult time in the news business, but it does not need to be this difficult. We welcome new voices to this place and, and some familiar voices to new hours. It's going to be great, honestly. And we want to grow and succeed and reach more people than ever and be resilient and stay here forever. I also believe, and I bet you believe, that the way to get there is by treating people well, finding good people, good colleagues, doing good work with them and then having their back that we could do a lot better on a lot better. I'll be right back.
- [26:24]
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- [26:51]
MSNBC Announcer
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- [27:18]
Rachel Maddow
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [27:24]
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- [27:42]
Rachel Maddow
People gathered in Washington, D.C. this weekend on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial to show support for our allies in Ukraine. Today marks three years since Russia invaded its neighbor. People marched in Grand Rapids, Michigan carrying Ukrainian flags, Stop Putin, Stop war. There was a pro Ukraine rally at the State Capitol in Madison, Wisconsin. There was another at the state Capitol in Salt Lake City, Utah. Also at the state Capitol in Columbus, Ohio, people rallied in support of our allies in Ukraine, in Detroit, Michigan and in Boston, Massachusetts. It was a huge turnout in Houston, Texas, in Reno, Nevada and all around the world from Toronto to Warsaw, from Paris to Melbourne, Australia. All these people all across our country, all across the world, all standing in solidarity with the people of Ukraine as they mark three years of trying to stay a country, of trying to resist this unprovoked Russian invasion. But here's how the US Government under Donald Trump marked that milestone today. This was the banner headline today at the Washington Post this afternoon. Quote US Sides with Russia against Ukraine war resolution. Quote Washington breaks with Europe refusing to condemn Moscow on third anniversary of invasion. And you know, UN resolutions are non binding. Votes like this are symbolic. But this is essentially the US declaring pretty much formally that we're on Russia's side now. US was one of only 18 countries in the world to vote against Ukraine and with Russia on this today. So who are our allies now? Who are we allied with now? Well, based on this vote, we now stand with Russia, obviously also North Korea Iran, Belarus, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Central African Republic, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Hungary, Israel, Mali, the Marshall Islands, Nicaragua, Niger, Sudan, and the United States of America. What a club to be part of. Welcome to our new axis. And how are we doing with the countries that have long been our allies, you know, the European nations that have been our closest allies for the last 80 years or so? Well, there was a remarkable moment, kind of an embarrassing moment in the Oval Office today, one in which I thought President Trump might burst. He's sitting there next to President Emmanuel Macron of France. And Trump tried to claim, right there in front of Macron that somehow Europe is going to be getting back all the money that it's invested in Ukraine to support its defense against Russia. The US Is somehow getting screwed. We gave them the money, but Europe, it was just loans and they're getting all the money back. The French president then interrupts the President of the United States to correct him, to say, actually, Europe has given more money than the United States to Ukraine's war effort and isn't getting any more of it back than the US Is. Watch this and watch. Watch how President Macron touches Trump's arm here. Watch Trump's reaction.
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Hakeem Jeffries
Europe is loaning the money to Ukraine. They get their money back.
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Congressman J. Obernulti
No, in fact, to be frank, we.
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Frank Kendall
Paid, we paid 60% of the total efforts.
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Congressman J. Obernulti
And it was like the US loans guarantee grants, and we, we provided real.
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Frank Kendall
Money, to be clear.
- [31:11]
Rachel Maddow
No, in fact, to be frank, I can't do, I can't even do a fake French accent, to be frank. But you see the way he puts his hand on Trump's arm, like the way you do when Grandpa starts going on again about something he saw on Fox News. Now, Grandpa, we talked about this. You keep saying Europe is getting all its money back from Ukraine, but Grandpa, to be frank, that's just not true. At a press conference later in the day, Trump said he thinks it is very much to the benefit of Russia to make a deal. I'm sure it will be. With the American president apparently quite hell bent on making Russia as happy as possible. To the list of things that will undoubtedly make Russia very happy in this Trump era, we can now add destabilizing the US Military as of this weekend, former Secretary of the Air Force has had a stark warning for the public on that front, and he's going to join us to discuss that here next.
- [32:08]
MSNBC Announcer
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Get the all new CNBC Sport Newsletter. Alex Sherman brings you exclusive interviews and the biggest news impacting the world of sports, business and media. All sports. Sign up for free@cnbc.com sportnewsletter the first 100 days bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.
- [33:05]
Rachel Maddow
Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.
- [33:07]
MSNBC Announcer
Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.
- [33:10]
Rachel Maddow
How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?
- [33:16]
MSNBC Announcer
The Rachel Maddows show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [33:25]
Rachel Maddow
Senior U.S. military officers and senior civilians in the Defense Department, really senior, like people who serve on the Joint Chiefs, people who are secretaries of the various branches of the military. I have been able to meet and interview and get to know more of them than you'd think. I wrote a book about the military a decade or so ago and that started a process in which I met a lot of these folks, and it's been an honor. While folks at that very senior level come from all sorts of different backgrounds, they come to those leadership positions through all sorts of different routes. By the time any of them have served at the most senior ranks of the military and the Defense Department, I think one of the things you can say about all of them in unison is that they are measured, they are calm. The word unflappable is almost right, but it feels like it needs a more worrying root word than flap right? These are people who are like epically even keeled. And that is why I asked to be on the show tonight the man who until last month served as secretary of the United States Air Force. His name is Frank Kendall. He is a West Point graduate, an army veteran, a former undersecretary of defense, and for the last four years he was secretary, Secretary of the United States Air Force. He is not a flappable man. And yet Friday night, President Donald Trump and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announced the sudden and unexplained removal of the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the highest ranking officer in the United States Navy, the vice chief of staff of the Air Force, and the senior lawyers, the senior legal officers in The Air Force and, and the army and the Navy. Now, Frank Kendall responded to that in writing, and what he wrote to me is the unflappable veteran defense official version of an air raid siren. Just listen to this quote. President Trump's decision to fire senior military leaders without cause is foolish and a disgrace. It politicizes our professional military in a dangerous and debilitating way. What frightens me most is the removal of three judge advocates general, the most senior uniformed legal authorities in the Defense Department. Their removal is one more element of this administration's attack on the rule of law and an especially disturbing part. The military's top judge advocates General are the senior military professionals who interpret and enforce the Uniform Code of Military justice, the rules that guide troops in the field. They have the independent legal authority to tell any military commander or political appointee that an order from the President or the Secretary of Defense is unlawful, cannot be given, and should not be obeyed. Mr. Trump and Mr. Hegseth will now get to choose the JAG leadership for all three military departments. One has to ask why JAG leadership was singled out for replacement. This is part of a much larger pattern of disrespect, even disdain for the rule of law. If there is one characteristic of this president and this administration, it is the utter lack of respect for legal constraints. Kendall says, quote, we are in danger when the legal constraints on how the president uses the military, including within the United States, are ignored or brushed aside. Our country is in uncharted territory. We have an administration that is waging war against the rule of law. The evidence is everywhere. We don't yet know how far it will go as it seeks to control, reinterpret, rewrite, ignore, or defy legal constraints, including the Constitution itself. He concludes with the replacement of the military. JAG leadership is one skirmish in that war. But it is time for the American people across the political spectrum to recognize what is happening. America has a rogue president and a rogue administration, and we need to acknowledge that and respond. Joining us now is Frank Kendall, who until last month was Secretary of the United States Air Force. Secretary Kendall, it is a real honor to have some time with you tonight. Thank you for joining us.
- [37:32]
Hakeem Jeffries
Joining us, thank you, Rachel. Great to be with you.
- [37:36]
Rachel Maddow
Am I right to read this as you essentially sending an alert that although to civilians this might not have registered at first glance like the biggest deal, given everything else, you're essentially telling the public this is a very big deal and one that needs a response.
- [37:53]
Hakeem Jeffries
It is a big deal and I chose my words carefully and Very thoughtfully. I felt that in the announcements about the people being replaced that the removal of the Judge Advocate Generals, the head lawyers for each of the services, was not getting the attention that it deserved. And I really wanted to call some attention to that because of the implications that could possibly have in terms of.
- [38:15]
Rachel Maddow
The removal of those legal officers. I found it striking that in the announcement about their removal, they weren't even named, implying that they were removed as a class of people rather than as individual public servants and officers who were removed for some specific reason as to how they were doing their job. What is the thing you most worry about in terms of replacing senior legal military officers at this level and doing so as a group?
- [38:44]
Hakeem Jeffries
First of all, I have a lot of confidence in our dredge Advocate General. This is a class of very professional people. I've worked with them over most of my career in a number of different capacities, and I've seen what they can do. What I'm concerned about though here is that there'll be some effort to find people who are going to be very compliant with whatever the administration wants to do. Secretary Hegseth has made some public comments about this. He's talked about, you know, JAGs constraining operators excessively when they're, when they're engaged in combat. That's a concern that lower ranking people might have about not being allowed to use as much firepower as they'd like, for example. But the rules of engagement, the rules of armed conflict and so on are there for a reason and they have to be followed by people. And we use the jags to help enforce that. That's one aspect of it. But there are a number of other things that the jags would be able to pronounce judgments on and again have legal authority over people in uniform. And that includes, as you mentioned, the use of the military within the United States against American citizens. There are legal constraints on how the military can be used, but as with all laws, they're subject to interpretation. So I'm concerned about the direction in which this is heading. This wasn't part of the DEI war against DEI that's being waged. The jags really have no role in that. These are not people who have other than fairly narrow responsibilities well down within the structure of each of the services. So it really struck me as unusual and hard to understand why these particular people would be single out for replacement.
- [40:20]
Rachel Maddow
When you said America has a rogue president and a rogue administration, I'd like to hear how you define those terms and what you mean by that. I Take you at your word that you. You chose those words very carefully, but you followed that assertion immediately with we need to acknowledge that and respond. So I'd also like to hear from you what you think the appropriate response is.
- [40:43]
Hakeem Jeffries
First of all, we're seeing a number of behaviors and not just the use of the military and so on, but we're seeing the use of a non government employee billionaire to come in and pretty much wreak havoc with the entire federal government apparatus. We're seeing declarations of things like birthright citizenship no longer being valid under the Constitution. So there's a large range of things not following the law and relieving the inspector generals that were relieved. I think your previous guest mentioned that there are 75 lawsuits going on right now. President Trump made the comment recently that if you're saving the nation, you're above the law, words to that effect. These are dangerous things to hear from an American president. And the conduct has been very consistent. So I think rogue is a reasonable description. I think it's an apt description, and I think it should make us all concerned. You know, whatever our views on various issues, we all should believe in the rule of law. It's the most fundamental American principle. It distinguishes us from almost any totalitarian state, certainly. And so we should all be united in saying, wait a minute. Whatever our differences may be, if we're going to, we can pursue those, we can debate, we can have processes play out to try to resolve those differences, but we have to do that within the law that is so fundamental to the existence of our democracy and to our freedom of citizens. I think every American should recognize that that's a concern.
- [42:13]
Rachel Maddow
Frank Kendall, former Undersecretary of Defense, until last month, Secretary of the United States Air Force. Sir, thank you for your service to our country. Thank you for helping us understand this tonight. And thank you for writing this in the blunt terms that you did. At least for me, it really broke through, and it made me understand this in a way that I didn't previously. And it's scary to me. But I appreciate your expertise. Thank you.
- [42:38]
Hakeem Jeffries
It's a scary time. Rachel, thank you.
- [42:40]
Rachel Maddow
Yeah, thank you. As the daughter of a former Air Force JAG in particular, I gotta say. All right, we'll be right back. I want to show you two very different, totally incredible expressions of protest in our time. The first one depends on nature, on an annual natural event that's called Firefall. Look at that. Every February, the way the sunset hits this waterfall at the top of the rock formation called El Capitan in Yosemite National Park. It creates a surreal orange glowing effect, almost like the waterfall is made of fire. Firefall at Yosemite is a really big tourist attraction. Like on a geologic scale. Thousands of people camp out to look up at this exact spot where the February sun hits the waterfall in just this way. Well, it's now February and Firefall is on. And on Saturday this weekend, a group of Yosemite park employees made it the site of a peaceful but dramatic protest. They climbed to the top of this 3,000 foot rock formation and they hung an American flag upside down, which in US flag code is the symbol of dire distress. The park employee who provided the flag told the San Francisco Chronicle the point was to bring attention to what is happening to the parks. By which he means that the Trump administration indiscriminately cutting huge numbers of jobs in the national parks. About a thousand so far. Enough to raise questions about how well the parks can function, not to mention potentially opening up public lands as widely as they can to drilling and mining upside down. American flag in Yosemite. That just an incredible expression of protest. That's number one. The second example happened today all the way across the country at the Department of Housing and Urban development in Washington D.C. where senior level managers at HUD have been told to expect half of their staff to be fired. Now, I should tell you that what I am about to show you is super gross, really gross. So if you would like to turn away, now is your chance. Okay. Throughout the D.C. headquarters for the Department of Housing and Urban Development, there are internal TV monitors, The kind that might show you what's for lunch in the cafeteria or whatever. But instead, today, when employees showed up for work the first day, everybody was expected to be back in the office full time. Instead, on those monitors, they saw this. A fakeity, fake video of President Trump passionately kissing the feet of Elon Musk with the text Long, long live the real King superimposed over it. What appeared on those internal TVs at HUD today needs to not exist in nature, and thank heavens it does not. From our own very helpful internal network guidance on this quote, our editorial teams indicate this video appears to be AI generated and fake. Yes. Yes, thank you, Jesus. The video does have telltale signs of being fake. If you look closely, which I don't recommend, you might notice, for example, that Elon Musk is depicted as having two left feet. We ourselves have not seen Mr. Musk's feet, but the ones on screen at HUD today do look like fictional feet. NBC News has reached out to the White House for comment. We will keep you posted. But from the tops of the mountains to the bottoms of the president's top donors, fake feet, Americans are getting creative in their pushback. Creative and unforgettable. We'll be right back. All right, that's going to do it for me for now. I will see you again tomorrow and every night this week here at MSNBC at 9pm Eastern.
- [46:44]
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