Exclusive: Rachel Maddow interviews MN Governor Tim Walz as Trump plots end of U.S. government

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rachel Maddow Show Episode: Exclusive: Rachel Maddow interviews MN Governor Tim Walz as Trump plots end of U.S. government
Release Date: January 29, 2025

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Introduction

In this pivotal episode of The Rachel Maddow Show, host Rachel Maddow delves deep into the alarming political developments threatening the fabric of the United States government. The episode features a critical analysis of former Vice Presidential nominee J.D. Vance, the controversial actions of the Trump administration, and an exclusive interview with Minnesota Governor Tim Walz. The discussion is enriched with incisive commentary, expert insights, and substantial evidence highlighting the erosion of democratic institutions.

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J.D. Vance’s Controversial Nomination

Rachel Maddow kicks off the episode by scrutinizing the nomination of J.D. Vance as Donald Trump's vice-presidential running mate. She outlines several red flags surrounding Vance’s political acumen and ethical standing.

• Lack of Political Experience: Maddow criticizes Vance for having minimal success in public office and being heavily influenced by a right-wing, German-born tech billionaire who orchestrated his Senate campaign through unprecedented political donations.

  • “For most of his adult life he had been basically a protege, realistically more like an intern for years and years and years for one very eccentric, very right wing, German born tech billionaire...” [01:03]

• Negative Public Perception: Vance is portrayed as unpopular, with poor polling numbers indicating he is “the most unpopular vice presidential choice in generations.”

  • “The polling for him was terrible. The polling said he was the most unpopular vice presidential choice in generations.” [01:03]

• Extremist Views: Maddow highlights Vance’s disturbing rhetoric advocating for the dismantling of current government structures, including the eradication of nonprofits and universities.

  • “We need to find ways to hurt even private companies that don't support the leader...” [04:27]

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Trump Administration’s Radical Agenda: RAGE

The discussion shifts to the Trump administration's alarming proposal encapsulated in the acronym RAGE—Retire All Government Employees. Maddow elaborates on the implications of this plan.

• Abolishing Government Functions: Vance and his allies propose a complete overhaul of the government system, comparing it to deleting a failing corporation.

  • “We need a CEO. And a national CEO is what's called a dictator. It's the same thing.” [10:25]

• Potential Consequences: Maddow warns of the societal chaos that would ensue from eliminating federal employees and essential services.

  • “This is them dismantling the government. And it's not because they think there's a nice smaller government in there somewhere that they're trying to find. This is them dismantling and trying to get rid of the American system of government.” [09:59]

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Immediate Impact: Federal Funding Freeze

The episode details the unprecedented move by the Trump administration to freeze federal funding across various sectors, prompting immediate nationwide repercussions.

• Nationwide Disarray: States like Ohio, Oregon, Alaska, Florida, Idaho, Nebraska, Illinois, Louisiana, and Maine experience sudden disruptions in services such as education, healthcare, and law enforcement.

  • “Columbus, Ohio Columbus Dispatch Millions in funding at risk as Columbus nonprofits scramble...” [12:48]

• White House Backtrack: Faced with widespread confusion and backlash, the administration attempts to retract the freeze on critical programs, revealing the lack of preparation and understanding of the consequences.

  • “We didn't mean that. Pell grants and federally supported student loans, those won't be included.” [15:49]

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Grassroots Pushback and Legal Challenges

Maddow emphasizes the robust resistance emerging from various sectors of society in response to the administration's actions.

• Legal Intervention: Organizations like Democracy Forward file lawsuits to block the funding freeze, achieving temporary reprieves.

  • “A lawsuit brought by Democracy Forward has blocked the funding freeze already.” [26:33]

• Grassroots Mobilization: Groups like Indivisible organize nationwide protests and strategic legislative maneuvers to counteract the administration's efforts.

  • “Indivisible is calling on Democratic senators to oppose all nominees until Trump reverses the freeze...” [26:33]

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Exclusive Interview with Governor Tim Walz

In a candid and revealing interview, Minnesota Governor Tim Walz provides his perspective on the Trump administration's destabilizing actions and outlines the state's response strategies.

• Acknowledging the Threat: Governor Walz describes the administration's move as a calculated attempt to "delete the government and replace it with something else."

  • “This is ideologically everything you laid out. They want to destroy the federal government, this buyout of employees...” [30:49]

• Call to Action: Walz urges citizens to remain focused, engage in grassroots activism, and utilize legal avenues to combat the administration's overreach.

  • “We have to push back. We have to be organized we do have to use the courts.” [34:49]

• Personal Commitment: Highlighting the importance of maintaining essential services, Walz emphasizes the need for continuous resistance and support for federal employees crucial to societal well-being.

  • “You have to, you know, the predator rustling in the bushes, someone drops a glass at a party, like we whip our head around...” [44:22]

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Ongoing Developments and Conclusion

Maddow wraps up the episode by reflecting on the day’s tumultuous events and the enduring resilience of democratic institutions amidst unprecedented challenges.

• Temporary Reprieves: Highlighting the administration's recent waiver to resume HIV medication distribution, Maddow underscores the effectiveness of sustained public pressure.

  • “Pressure works. Attention works. Trump administration cut off crucial drugs for people with HIV around the world...” [39:18]

• Future Outlook: The episode concludes with a somber yet hopeful outlook, recognizing the formidable opposition and the critical role of informed citizenry in safeguarding democracy.

  • “We are going to see the impact of that in Washington. Democrats in the House today called an in person emergency, all hands on deck in Washington meeting tomorrow to plan a response...” [26:33]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. J.D. Vance on Political Power:

   • “We’re going to need to act in an extra constitutional way. We’re going to need to wield power in a way that we’ve never wielded power before.” [05:12]

2. J.D. Vance on Replacing Government:

   • “Corporations that have failed, we simply delete them. We haven’t been able to do that with our government for 200 years.” [09:08]

3. Governor Tim Walz on the Administration’s Plans:

   • “They laid it out in Project 2020. Here we are.” [30:37]
   • “This is real. This is, you know, they are talking about defunding the police...” [34:49]

4. Governor Tim Walz on Citizen Action:

   • “We have to push back. We have to be organized we do have to use the courts.” [34:49]

5. Rachel Maddow on Administrative Missteps:

   • “The bad news is they are trying to delete the government. They are trying to get Rid of all federal employees...” [12:48]

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Conclusion

This episode of The Rachel Maddow Show serves as a critical exposé on the existential threats posed by extremist political maneuvers within the U.S. government. Through detailed analysis, expert interviews, and unwavering investigative journalism, Maddow underscores the importance of vigilance, grassroots activism, and legal safeguards in preserving democratic integrity. The episode not only informs but also galvanizes listeners to actively engage in the defense of American democratic institutions.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy Live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems.

[Tim Walz]

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[Chris Hayes]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Chris Hayes]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Thanks June Home for joining us this hour. Really, really happy to have you here. So there is, there is good news and there is bad news today. Which do you want first? Let's do the bad news first. It was only about six months ago, feels like a lifetime. But it was only about six months ago that Donald Trump announced who he was going to run with for this past election. It was about six months ago that we got J.D. vance announced as Trump's vice presidential running mate. And the choice was a little hard to parse. He was a good talker, like he's articulate in interviews. But it immediately became clear that he's a bad campaigner. He had a way of inadvertently insulting people and kind of ruining their day with his presence. Remember the poor donut shop workers in Georgia? The polling for him was terrible. The polling said he was the most unpopular vice presidential choice in generations. His record as a public official, or even just his record kind of as an adult, was hard to explain. For most of his adult life he had been basically a protege, realistically more like an intern for years and years and years for one very eccentric, very right wing, German born tech billionaire, that particular eccentric billionaire had basically adopted JD Vance, had set him up in a whole series of jobs, none of which he had very much success at. But then the billionaire decided that the next job he wanted to put JD Vance into was the United States Senate. And so he essentially bought a Senate campaign for him. He made the largest single political donation ever made to a U.S. senate candidate in American history and he effectively ran his campaign. And that is how JD Vance was effectively given the only job he ever had in politics before. He then immediately became vice President of the United States. And at that point, when he was chosen to be Trump's running mate, you could basically not see him. For all the red flags around him, you couldn't make him out. Amid all the red flags, the billionaire who gave him all of his jobs and installed him in the US Senate, and who then reportedly told Trump to put him on the ticket with him as his vice presidential running mate, that billionaire himself is on the record saying he does not believe in democracy, he does not believe that women should have the right to vote in America. He once spent a small chunk of his huge fortune trying to get people to move onto floating sea colonies made from shipping containers, because that would be a better way to live than living in countries, because countries are so terrible and so is democracy. Right. So that's the political project of the guy whose other political project was putting J.D. vance in at the top of the US government. So, Red flag, also, for someone who had never actually done anything as an elected public servant, there was also a big red flag, at least there was for me, about the way J.D. vance talked about why he wanted to be in politics, why he wanted to be in charge, what he wanted to do with power.

[J.D. Vance]

Republicans, conservatives, we're still terrified of wielding power, of actually doing the job that the people sent us here to do. We've got to get comfortable with wielding power. If you're not recognizing in this moment how crazy things have gotten and how outside the box we need to think, then I think you're ultimately not really serious about taking back the country. And yeah, look, I agree. We are in the late Republican period. If we're going to push back against it, we have to get pretty, pretty wild and pretty far out there and go in directions that a lot of conservatives right now are uncomfortable with.

[Tim Walz]

Indeed. I got to say, among some of my circle, the phrase extra constitutional has.

[Rachel Maddow]

Come up quite a bit.

[Tim Walz]

We do need to take a much more aggressive stance, a much more muscular stance. We're going to have to, you know, become a little bit more robust in our behavior.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah, we're entering into an extra constitutional way. We're going to need to act in an extra constitutional way. We're going to need to wield power in a way that we've never wielded power before. We're going to have to. What does he say? We're going to have to get pretty wild, pretty far out there, go in directions a lot of conservatives aren't comfortable with right now. When he says we're in a late Republican period, he's not talking about the Republican Party. He's talking about we're in a late period of us as a republic, like the American constitutional republic is ending because it's time for something new. This is how the guy talks. This is how he was auditioning to be chosen as Trump's vice president almost.

[J.D. Vance]

The thing that you need to do, step one in the process is, is to totally replace, like, rip out like a tumor, the current American leadership class and then reinstall some sense of American, you know, political religion.

[Rachel Maddow]

Rip it out like a tumor. Rip it out like a tumor, he said. Whatever it is we've had in this country, rip it out like a tumor. So this is very bad news. Right? When J.D. vance would do podcast interviews and talk about how the government should. Conservatives should see the government and government should seize the endowments of private universities, with conservatives in control, they should find ways to hurt even private companies that don't support the leader, he said we should rip out the current class of Americans like they're a tumor. When he talked about all these things in these very radical right podcasts, he'd get, his interlocutor is very excited. These guys who he was talking to, and very frequently, they'd want to know more. They'd try to get him to talk about where it was that he got all these great ideas.

[Tim Walz]

How do we, aside from elections, how do we rip out this leadership class? So these institutions are corrupted and rotted to the core. This elite ideology is everywhere. And in all the things, what other options do we have besides voting them out, which we're seeing is ineffectual.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. So again, this is like a tough question, but this is maybe the question that confronts us right now. Right? There's this guy, Curtis Yarvin, who's written about some of these things.

[Rachel Maddow]

There's this guy, Curtis Yarvin, who's written about some of these things. Donald Trump had to get rid of his first term vice president because his first term vice president wouldn't help with his effort to overthrow the government and stay in power despite losing an election. And so Trump sicced a violent, angry mob on Capitol Hill. And that angry mob then proceeded to try to hunt down Trump's vice president, screaming that they wanted to kill him. Hang Mike Pence. So that didn't go great. He needed a new guy. For the new guy, he picked this rando who had only been in the Senate about five minutes, who nobody in the country had really heard of, who had no political skills to speak of, who was deeply unpop from the first moment he was named, but he was really, really, really, really linked in to an eccentric, very far right tech billionaire political faction. And the political guru of that political faction, the guy who inspires all of their political goals, is this one guy.

[J.D. Vance]

There's this guy, Curtis Yarvin, who's written about some of these things.

[Rachel Maddow]

Knowing chuckle from the podcast interviewer. Oh yeah, Curtis Yarvin. This guy, Curtis Yarvin. That's who J.D. vance cites as the guy who's been doing the big thinking about this stuff. You tell me if that explains what we are living through right now today in the news, because here is Curtis Yarvin.

[J.D. Vance]

Why has no one ever suggested, let's just get rid of this thing. You have a government in Washington. You're either for it or against it. What is a government? A government is just a corporation which owns a country. Nothing more, nothing less. It so happens that our sovereign corporation is very poorly managed. And there's a very simple way to replace that, which is what we do at all. Corporations that have failed, we simply delete them. We haven't been able to do that with our government for 200 years. So it's gotten a little bit stale. The other thing about getting rid of your government is you can't just say, well, the limits of the government are the limits of the formal government. You have to say, well, what is the system actually? And it includes a lot of things that are called NGOs, things that are called universities, things that are funded by the state. It's a very, very large system and it all needs to be destroyed.

[Rachel Maddow]

NGOs, universities, things that are funded by the state. It's a large system and it all needs to be destroyed because we need to, in his words, delete the government, delete the whole system, including nonprofits, including universities, including everything the government funds. We to destroy all of it. And why would you do that? What would you want to replace it with?

[J.D. Vance]

You need a CEO. And a national CEO is what's called a dictator. It's the same thing. There's no difference between CEO and dictator. If Americans want to change their government, they're going to have to get over the dictator phobia.

[Rachel Maddow]

Americans are going to have to get over their dictator phobia. We need to delete the government, destroy all nonprofits and schools, and get rid of everything the government funds. We need to bring it all down to zero. We need to destroy the whole system. And the reason we need to do that is so we can have a national CEO take over and run everything. And what is a national CEO? A national CEO is a dictator. Just run that definition one more time.

[J.D. Vance]

You need a CEO and a national CEO is what's called a dictator. It's the same thing. There's no difference between CEO and dictator. If Americans want to change their government, they're going to have to get over the dictator phobia.

[Rachel Maddow]

Americans need to get over their dictator phobia. This is the philosopher, right, of this milieu from which we got J.D. vance. This is the philosophy that drives the eccentric right wing tech billionaire class that has ascended. That is effectively the defining feature and driving force of Trump's second term. That is where they got J.D. vance from Vance's friends with Curtis Yarvin, whom he openly cites as a political influence. And this isn't like a Rosetta stone, it's not that complex. But they really did tell us in advance what they were going to do and now they are doing it. I think the biggest barrier to getting Americans to understand that during the election campaign was because it was so crazy you couldn't believe they were really going to do it, right? But now they're doing it because in order to delete the government, to destroy the whole American government and the American system and rip it out like a tumor. So instead we can get over our dictator phobia and at last have a national CEO. We can at last have a dictator. What do we have to do to get there? What's the like operational Day one plan to get there? What should we see these guys try to do if in fact they get that power that J.D. vance says they need to wield more ruthlessly?

[J.D. Vance]

So I've reduced this very complicated problem to a simple four letter acronym, which is rage. And RAGE stands for Retire all Government employees. Very, very, very simple. Now the problem with this is, why have you never heard this before?

[Rachel Maddow]

Retire all government employees. It's interesting. He doesn't say fire them, he says retire them both. Because RAGE is a better acronym than phage. But he also is suggesting giving them all payouts, giving government employees generous payments so they will all leave the government, so the government can be closed, can be deleted, can be collapsed so that we can have a national CEO so we can have a dictator instead. It's a pretty out there idea, right? Pretty wild, pretty far out there, as J.D. vance might say. But here's what it looks like tonight in the flesh, because they're actually trying to do it tonight, a buyout program for every worker in the US Federal government. If you choose to remain in your current position, we cannot give you full assurance regarding the certainty of your position or agency, but should your position be eliminated, you will be treated with dignity. If you choose not to continue in your current role in the federal workforce, we thank you for your service to your country, and you will be provided with a dignified, fair departure from the federal government. This program begins effective January 28th, meaning today, and is available to all Federal employees until February 6th, next Thursday. If you resign under this program, you will retain all pay and benefits regardless of your daily workload until September 30, 2025 or earlier, if you choose to accelerate your resignation. So they're doing it. They're offering a buyout. They are threatening to. Well, they are trying to induce every single employee of the government to resign, and they say they will pay them to go. After that, though, no guarantees. Don't you want to get out now? This is weird, right? This is new. The reason this has never been done before is because this is not something that anyone would do if they actually wanted the US Government to continue. Even if they wanted to change what the US Government did, they would want to keep federal employees in positions so that the government could do anything. The idea of retiring all government employees, every. Every employee of the federal government, this is an idea that comes from one weird place. It comes from the very weird, eccentric, right wing tech billionaire world where in their eyes, this is the end of the American Republic. And thank God, because this lousy democracy thing has been holding us back. And what we really need is a CEO, a national CEO. What is it they call it again?

[J.D. Vance]

You need a CEO, and a national CEO is what's called a dictator. It's the same thing. There's no difference between CEO and dictator. If Americans want to change their government, they're gonna have to get over the dictator phobia.

[Tim Walz]

What other options do we have besides voting them out, which we're seeing is ineffectual?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, so again, this is like a tough question, but this is maybe the question that confronts us right now. Right. There's this guy, Curtis Yarvin, who's written about some of these things.

[Rachel Maddow]

So we're not gonna do the voting thing anymore. That has proven ineffectual. But there's this guy that has these other ideas. So now they're doing it. Retire all government employees on the same day. They rolled that out today. They also caused chaos across all 50 states of this country by just announcing that they were stopping all the things the government does, all the things the government funds. And I mean, you could see it, the effects of this ripple out across the country. Columbus, Ohio Columbus Dispatch Millions in funding at risk as Columbus nonprofits scramble to deal with Trump pause the Oregon Capitol Chronicle Oregon officials scrambling to respond to Trump order freezing many federal funds in Alaska. The Anchorage Daily News Catastrophic for a state like ours. Alaska governments and nonprofits react to federal grant funding freeze. Florida the Miami Herald confusion in Miami over federal Grant Freeze Channel 10 in Miami Dade County. Miami Dade officials very concerned about federal funding freeze. Idaho grant recipients scrambling for clarity after federal freeze. Nebraska officials assessing impact of very concerning Trump funding freeze order. Illinois shutout of Medicaid as Trump enacts temporary freeze on federal funds Trump order put $700 million in grants on pause for Louisiana schools. Maine housing authorities can't access funds after Trump's federal grants freeze. So the bad news is bad, right? This is them dismantling the government. And it's not because they think there's a nice smaller government in there somewhere that they're trying to find. This is them dismantling and trying to get rid of the American system of government. That's the bad news. The good news is they're not all that good at this. And we saw that today in the inexplicable, unlawyered, clumsy language of this two page order to stop all federal funding. That order directed, for example, that the Green New Deal funding must stop. The Green New Deal is a years old piece of proposed legislation that never actually passed. The inexplicability, the sort of bumper sticker style language of the stop all the funding order is why so many of the initial headlines about the impact of this today focused on the confusion, the lack of clarity, nobody really having any idea what exactly the Trump administration was shutting down. And that was true in blue states, that was true in purple states, was true in red states. As members of Congress and governors and former government officials and members of the press started putting it together, started circulating lists of all the things that this Trump order was shutting down. The White House themselves appeared to be fairly bewildered by the news that this was in fact the stuff that they were shutting down. Like really, we're shutting down veterans homeless shelters. We are. We're shutting down meat and poultry inspections. We are. We're shutting down school breakfasts, school lunches. We're shutting down home heating assistance. It's January 28th. We're shutting down housing assistance, including rent vouchers, which is how people pay their rent first of the month, when the rent is due is Saturday. We're shutting down food stamps. The SNAP program. Millions and millions and millions of Trump voting Americans get snap. Millions of Americans of all stripes. The WIC program, that's food specifically for pregnant and postpartum women and their infants. Childcare, Head Start, suicide hotlines, child abuse investigations, supporting law enforcement, rape crisis centers, Medicaid, which is health insurance for millions of Americans, including especially disabled people, old people, and oh, by the way, it covers 40% of all births in America. And this isn't stuff that they were like proposing to not reauthorize or like asking Congress to cut. They said that money was cut off as of today. And after the Trump White House started to realize that those were all the things they had just shut down, there was a hue and cry and a huge pushback all over the country. And what happened? The Trump White House backed down and tried to say that, oh, this wasn't what they had meant to do, that, no, no, no, Medicaid wasn't being sh. Off. Where'd you hear that? You tell that to the states that all day. Couldn't access any Medicaid payments. Again, after a hue and cry and huge pushback, they changed their mind, or rather changed their explanation and said, oh no, no, no, we didn't mean that. Pell grants and federally supported student loans, those won't be included. Well, they certainly appeared to be on the list this morning. But then after the hue and cry and the pushback, they tried to say, oh no, no, no, they never were. The White House apparently had no idea what was going to turn off when they flipped that switch today. Shut down the government. By the way, what's the government. Ready, fire, aim. This White House had no idea what the impact was of what they were doing. And so they spent all day taking more and more and more of it back as people told them what they had just done and pushed back hard. Later in the day, they put out a new directive insisting, oh no, no, no, we didn't mean food stamps. SNAP isn't being stopped. We didn't mean that. Oh, and neither are funds for small businesses and funds for farmers and Pell grants and Head Start and rental assistance, quote, and other similar programs. Anything that sounds good that people might get mad about. We didn't mean that. We just meant government, which sucks, right? We didn't mean all the stuff that people use and like and need. The bad news is they are trying to delete the government. They are trying to get Rid of all federal employees, just throwing a brick through the window on everything the government does. Their aims appear to be as bad or worse than anybody predicted or imagined, even after they picked J.D. vance. That's the bad news. But the good news is that they're bad at what they're doing and that there is loud and outraged pushback and it is pushing them back. The pushback is happening all across the country, red states and blue states. We are about to see the impact of that in Washington. Democrats in the House today called an in person emergency, all hands on deck in Washington meeting tomorrow to plan a response that they say includes not just legislation and communication, but also litigation. That emergency, all hands on deck meeting today called by Hakeem Jackson, the Democratic leader in the House today. A lawsuit brought by Democracy Forward has blocked the funding freeze already. It is blocked at least until next week. You know the group Indivisible, they've been doing big, impressive organizing meetings all over the country this week. Look at these pictures of their numbers that are turning out at their meetings right now, these organizing meetings again all over the country. Indivisible is calling on Democratic senators in response to what Trump has just done. Telling them what Trump has just done here in this last couple of days is so extreme. This is so bad, Democratic senators need to not wait to see what else he's going to do. They actually need to take relatively extreme action in response right now. Indivisibles calling on Democratic senators to, quote, oppose all nominees until Trump reverses the freeze to deny unanimous consent in order to slow down Senate proceedings, to vote no on all cloture votes, to, quote, force quorum calls at every opportunity. They say, quote, trump is daring anyone to stop him as he seizes power, ignoring Congress and rewriting laws by decree. They say, quote, we need Democrats to use every procedural maneuver to grind things to a stop and use every media tool to raise alarm and allow public pressure to build. Shut down the Senate, Shut down the Senate. Refuse to allow them to steamroll and take this fight to every town hall, courtroom and news outlet, quote, shut it down. Indivisible tells us tonight that they've had their members calling the Senate, calling Democrats in the Senate all day making that demand. They told us they are finding senators and their staffers to be very receptive to this message. It is against the law for Trump to have stopped this funding that Congress allocated. He thinks that that law doesn't count and it doesn't matter, so he did it anyway. For that matter, it's also illegal for Trump to have fired people at the National Labor Relations Board and the EEOC Today, it is illegal for Trump to have fired the inspectors general from all those agencies the way that he did. All of those things are actually contrary to law. But in this administration, what are they trying to do? Delete the government and install a national CEO, AKA dictator, so him acting in ways that are contrary to law. They see that as a feature, not a bug. Right. They want to demonstrate that he does not have to follow the law because after all, we are deleting the US Government and replacing it with something else. That is what they are offering. They think we're going to get over our dictator phobia and go along with it. Turns out we're not going along with it. Not in the courts, not in the Congress, not in the Senate, not in the states, not in the press, and ultimately, I think not in the streets. Nope. Turns out, not having it. And it does turn out that their intentions are as bad as we could have imagined, or maybe worse. But now, what did you see today? You saw them cave and mumble and try to take it back and say they didn't mean it. We've got a free press of free people and an organized political opposition that represents fully half the country. So here we go. It's on. It's on. It's on.

[Chris Hayes]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Chris Hayes]

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[Rachel Maddow]

That's true, at least until now.

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[Rachel Maddow]

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So look, if you love Suits, Amazing, this podcast is for you.

[Chris Hayes]

And if you've never watched Suits, also Amazing. You can join us and we'll watch it together.

[Rachel Maddow]

I think we're going to have a lot of fun.

[Chris Hayes]

Listen to sidebar wherever you get your.

[Rachel Maddow]

Podcasts and don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.

[Tim Walz]

Donald Trump's reckless action cut off funding to law enforcement, farmer school, child care, veterans and health care while he was out guarding. He threw the country into crisis. This is not bold. It's not leadership. It's stupid, buffoonish, childish of exactly what they did. Most folks were up all night last night as we dealt with this being thrown on there with no guidance. I know you have a lot of questions. I have a lot of questions because not one damn person thought this through. I'm hearing within the last few minutes, oh no, no, the Medicare thing was just a fluke. It's unrelated to this. That is there is absolutely no way they didn't know exactly what they were doing.

[Rachel Maddow]

Minnesota Governor and Democratic vice presidential nominee Tim Wall speaking this afternoon in Minnesota in response to the Trump White House's sudden, inexplicable freeze on all federal funding. Governor Walls and state officials were sent scrambling overnight to try to deal with the expected impact of roughly $2 billion in federal funding for ongoing programs being yanked instantly and with no warning. Today, after a huge Pushback across the country. The Trump administration tried to take some of it back and say they hadn't meant it. Then a freeze, the freeze overall was put on hold by a federal judge. Joining us now exclusively for his first interview since the presidential election is Minnesota Governor Tim Walz. Governor Walz, it's really nice to see you. Thank you for making time to be here.

[Tim Walz]

It's good to be back with you, Rachel. And great first segment. Terrifying but accurate. You know what they're after. And it's not that we should be surprised by this. They laid it out in Project 2020. Here we are.

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, actually, let me ask you about that on this point. A lot of people have been today in the last few days crediting your campaign and crediting all the reporting during the campaign that identified Project 2025 as essentially what looked like a blueprint for the incoming Trump administration to dismantle the American government. They denied it. They said they had nothing to do with it, said they'd never heard of it. Does it seem to you like that's actually what they're doing?

[Tim Walz]

It is. It doesn't seem. It is. We took it seriously. And I can tell, you know, your viewers tonight, governors and attorney generals took this seriously. And there was a lot of planning. There's a lot of good folks, smart folks, organizations. You talked about, some of them that were out there preparing for this. But there's only so much planning you can do because of the impact it makes. And just today I was at a Head Start program. What we have to do is we have to personalize this down to this matters to each person because Republicans always want to talk about cutting government that's in theoretically, they never want to be specific because we know that these programs are incredibly popular. But I can tell folks we were preparing for it. They wrote it out. If you go back and look at that now, you'll see this go step by step. And I would say, Rachel, that it was cruel, they planned it. Yes, it was somewhat buffoonish, but I'm not quite certain that we're reading that right. I think this is a case of that this is a trial balloon to see how much tolerance we had. And what we pull back. I make this analogy, it's like you caught someone and they stole everything out of your house. You caught them and you told them to put it back. And when you start looking, some of it's still gone. What they're going to see is, oh, they didn't raise a stink about meteorologists or our folks who are monitoring PFAS in our water. So let's just go on with that or people that we don't think have a voice that we want to marginalize and demonize. So, you know, they were going to get this. And, you know, and I heard Chris on his program talking with Jamie Raskin, who is the smartest person you'll find in Congress. They're never going to bring this the legal way because no Republican will vote for this. And the deafening silence of Republican governors. These are my colleagues, some of them are my friends, but shame on you. You know what this is doing. And look, I come from a wealthy state that has the lowest childhood poverty rates, and we have a strong safety net. I guarantee you these Republican states would pay the price far more than us. And they're just silent on it. So we're going to need some courage. This is a long fight. This is ideologically everything you laid out. They want to destroy the federal government, this buyout of employees, because now they threaten them. It's here. The game is here. We knew it was coming. I don't know what people thought that we were just speaking, you know, that this wasn't going to happen. Donald Trump said, oh, I never heard of him. And now you got vote this guy vote. That's at the heart of it. So, look, it's on. I'm glad you said that. Governors are out there. The resistance is strong. You felt it. Americans, lo and behold, like democracy and feeding their children. So they're going to fight for these things. But here's what I okay, there's a court order. Who believes Donald Trump's going to care what the courts say? Who believes he's not going to do this? We're still finding glitches in our things. We're trying to access these systems again. They're not functioning correctly. And the ludicrousness, the insult to the American public to tell us that for the first time it was just a coincidence that the Medicaid reimbursement site glitched at the same time they froze all these programs. We have to put an end to that. We have to just say, no, it's not enough. And I got to tell you, I'm going to, I'm sending it out to those Republican governors. Governors we set by, side by side. Governors don'twe have to deliver. We have to make sure that the water runs, that things are happening and they're getting hammered just as much as we are.

[Rachel Maddow]

What do you think America is listening to you right now, thinking about what might have been had you been vice President instead of J.D. vance, what might have been had Kamala Harris been the president right now instead of Donald Trump? People hearing you talking about the pushback and the fight and that mattering, what does that mean in practical terms? The average person watching you right now, who agrees that this needs a big pushback, what should they do?

[Tim Walz]

Yeah, and you know that overused term, the frog in the boiling water? We've been in the damn pot way too long. I think it is speaking up. It's thinking about your neighbors. It's writing and putting those members of Congress. Look, there is no spine amongst those folks. But this is real. This is, you know, they're talking about defunding the police, things that they, you know, puff their chests up and say they're good with making the case. And I would let, you know to the voters, I'm with this too. Everybody's fatigued. Trust me, I get it. It was pure hell and the disappointment and the frustration, and I'm, you know, soul searching, what could we have done to make the case? Because we knew this was coming. We knew that the implications. And they're throwing so much at us that we're fatigued. You know, we spent three days, you know, debating having them trying to debate that President Musk gave a Nazi salute. Of course he did. But that is a distraction from what I think you said. This is game on stuff right here. And I am worried with these federal employees because, look, they're in a tough spot that some of these folks, especially those that are doing good work around environmental concerns, around justice for people, around, you know, criminal justice reform, all of the things that make our society better. Those folks are in there, and they're makingyou know. They put out tweets from the president's fail son who threatens people, like, we're coming for you. You think this is bad or whatever. So I would tell people, stay focused. Don't take the bait on the distractions. Surround yourself with people who understand this and recognize the things they went after. Today are basically a big chunk of what society does. And people like to have clean water and hospitals and safety and roads and airports, all the things they're going after. And you summed it up. This is because there are societies that function like this where the rich and the oligarchs do everything. And there are some fabulously wealthy people who are basicallynot. Basically are above the law. And the rest of us are here. And I think we have to find that voice. We have to push back. We have to be organized we do have to use the courts. But I just want to caution everyone. I don't know what tends us to believe that Donald Trump cares what the courts say. I think there needs to be more to that and I think it is taking it to the individual people show what each of these programs does and what it means to people's lives.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. No matter what people motivated anybody's vote. If you didn't think you were voting to cut firefighting, if you didn't think you were voting to cut meat inspections, if you didn't think you were voting to cut air traffic control, well, it's all becoming very, very clear right now, sir. Please come back anytime. It's nice to see you and it's really, it's an honor to have you here with us tonight. Thank you.

[Tim Walz]

Thanks, Rachel.

[Rachel Maddow]

All right, more news ahead tonight. Stay with us.

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Tim Walz]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Chris Hayes]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Here's some breaking news. What's that we were saying about the fact that pressure works. The Trump white has just reversed course on another really important thing tonight. Look at this headline in the New York Times. Quote, state Department permits distribution of HIV medications to resume for now. The Trump administration today issued a waiver for life saving medicines and medical services, offering a reprieve for a worldwide HIV treatment program that was halted last week. The waiver announced today by Secretary of State Marco Rubio seemed to allow for the distribution of of HIV medications. Hmm. Pressure works. Attention works. Trump administration cut off crucial drugs for people with HIV around the world, risking, among other things, that all of those people might not only die, but they might in the meantime develop drug resistant hiv, which would then be unleashed on the world. Hey, that seems like a great plan. But focused pushback made them change course today. And that incredible story is one thing in tonight's news. Among what feels like about 5 million, there are at least a dozen different items just in the news just today that would be worthy of its own book. When you're in an environment like this, when there's too much to cover in detail, you know, you do what you can, you try to notice everything, you try to make note of everything, but then you know you need to move on. How do you focus? Right. We are eight years down the road from the last time we were adjusting to a news environment like this. And maybe we're remembering some of what it was like in 2017. Maybe this is a skill we have. But have you found yourself wondering over the last couple of weeks whether we're actually worse at dealing with this dynamic right now than we were eight years ago? Our brains are worse at dealing with it because of what has been happening to us as humans and our human brains in the digital attention economy that we have been living in for the past eight, eight years since the last time we had to deal with this. I've been worried about that. And that is what my friend and colleague Chris Hayes writes about in his excellent new book, which is called the Siren's Call. He writes, quote, before you can persuade, you must capture attention. Before you inform, insult, seduce, or anything else, you must make sure that your voice doesn't end up in the muted background static. That's 99.9% of the speech directed our way. Public discourse is now a war of all against all for attention, and we're all feeling battle weary. This book is an attempt at finding peace, joining Us now is my friend and colleague, Chris Hayes. He's the host of All In Here on msnbc, and his new book is out today. It's called the Sirens How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource. Chris, thank you for being here. Thank you for writing the book.

[Curtis Yarvin]

Thank you. It's so great to join you. And that was. Those were two phenomenal blocks of television, I just gotta say. And also, man, Tim Walls should have been doing a lot more press, I feel like. Anyway, I guess we can't swim on stream to that, but I'll just say that those were excellent blocks.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you. That's nice of you to say. What I just said, though, does that resonate with you at all? I am worried since 2017. I'm older and wearier and all of the things that happen over eight years, but I also feel like my brain has gotten softer and more strangled because of the information environment and the attention environment that you describe in your book. Does that resonate for you?

[Curtis Yarvin]

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things about the way that our attention functions is it gets habituated. We have different cells within us. There's the kind of volitional self that wants to focus on things like. Like the classic example is the book you bring on vacation that you don't read because you were like, scrolling social media. Right. And which of those is the true self? And they're both the true self. Right. Different conditions, different technologies bring out different parts of ourselves. And we are living right now in a technological and market atmosphere in which the value of our tension is so high when aggregated and pooled by large corporations or by political figures, that it is constantly being compelled against our will. And that habituates something in us that makes it harder to focus. And we're seeing. I mean, your point about focus here is so important about the political effects of it, because sustained focus is a kind of power. And they're, you know, Donald Trump wants attention on the ICE raids, which is why Dr. Phil's there. They didn't want attention on suspending HIV drug being given out and shutting down veteran suicide prevention. But, yeah, the battle isn't. We don't have battles in public discourse that are debates. Like, notice what happened today was their debate. Did they rise to say, actually, we think it's not good to spend federal money on veteran suicide prevention? Well, no, here's why we think we do. We didn't debate it. It was just a war over who was gonna pay attention to what was it gonna be paying attention to these Cuts or what they were trying to direct us towards.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yes. And that. And in the news environment, like, for what you and I do as a living, to make a living, we have to choose what we are going to talk about. That is the most powerful part of our job. For me, it is the most intellectually stimulating and rewarding part of our job. But that is absolutely the competition in which all Americans are engaged in terms of what you look at, what you believe is true, what is worth spending time with. And I feel like it's more scientific. Like, we sort of feel like it's stuff that we encounter and it's stuff that we see and it's stuff that scroll by. I feel like the thing that your book taught me is how much this is a professional science of getting us to turn our head and getting us to stop paying attention to one thing and start paying attention to another. It makes me feel like we're being experimented on by scientists who didn't get our consent.

[Curtis Yarvin]

And one of the key insights here is that because we have this biological inheritance, we have this faculty that, you know, the predator rustling in the bushes, someone drops a glass at a party, like we whip our head around, that is what we're susceptible to, having our attention compelled and the thing that we want to cultivate in ourselves. And you're really one of the best practitioners at this in terms of what you're able to do is like, sustained attention and focus. And so we still have that within us. It's just a question of putting ourselves embedded in institutions and conditions and environments where we're cultivating that in ourselves. Because that is its own kind of power right now.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. And being able to name it, recognize it, think about it, make decisions about it, rather than it all just seeing like an ambient thing you can't control, to me, actually is very calming. And I found that your book did actually give me some peace on this. This is the book. It's called the Siren's How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource. Chris Hayes's new book. It's fantastic. You're a great writer and a great pal. Thanks, my friend. Really appreciate it.

[Chris Hayes]

Thank you.

[Curtis Yarvin]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

All right, we'll be right back. Caroline Kennedy is the daughter of President John F. Kennedy. She was ambassador to Australia under Joe Biden. Now that the Biden administration is over, Caroline Kennedy is no longer in government. And hoo, boy, does she have some things to say, specifically about her cousin, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Trump's nominee to be America's health secretary. I just want to read you this from a letter that Caroline Kennedy today sent to senators who are going to be questioning her cousin at his nomination hearing tomorrow. Get a load of this quote. I have known Bobby my whole life. We grew up together. It's no surprise that he keeps birds of prey as pets because he himself is a predator. I watched his younger brothers and cousins follow him down the path of drug addiction. His basement, his garage, his dorm room were the centers of the action where drugs were available. And he enjoyed showing off how he put baby chickens and mice in the blender to feed his hawks. It was often a perverse scene of despair and violence. Bobby has gone on to misrepresent, lie and cheat his way through life. Bobby is addicted to attention and power. Bobby preys on the desperation of parents of sick children, vaccinating his own children while building a following by hypocritically discouraging other parents from vaccinating theirs. She says the nation's health care providers, quote, deserve a stable moral and ethical person at the helm of this crucial agency. They deserve better than Bobby Kennedy and so do the rest of us. She also just sums it up by saying he lacks any relevant government, financial management or medical experience. Needless to say, she ends by urging senators to vote against him. This letter from his own cousin is now in the hands of every senator who will be questioning Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. At his confirmation hearing tomorrow. Watch this space. Before we go, I want you to do me a favor. Take out your cell phone and open up the camera app on your cell phone. We're now going to put something up on the screen. If you point your camera at that little blob on the screen, you see that little pixelated circle where it says scan to follow that little blob, that QR code? If you look at that with your camera on your phone and then click the link that pops up, that is the thing that you should do because that link will bring you to my account on the social media app that's called bluesky. And that's where I am online. You can find me here on TV at 9pm EAS weeknights. But the whole rest of the time you can find me on Blue sky, where I am matto.msnbc.com so just click on that, click on follow to follow my account and I will see you there on bluesky. Thank you very much for considering it. All right, I'll see you again here tomorrow, 9pm Eastern. What's up, podcast listeners? It's Tanks, host of the It's Me Tanks podcast. Join me weekly on It's Me Tanks as I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting, summer comparison, and pop culture's hottest takes. I don't shy away from getting candid about personal experiences, and I want to share all the advice I have learned with you. I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia Ashray, Connor Wood, and Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new Office Hours episodes. You can listen to It's Me Tanks every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show so you don't miss an episode.