← The Rachel Maddow Show
The Rachel Maddow Show
'Have you considered resigning?': Maddow calls out Trump staffers who fired nuclear safety personnel
00:42:50
Rachel Maddow follows the reporting on Donald Trump's reckless firing of federal employees who work in the nuclear industry, cleaning up nuclear waste, managing a nuclear power plant, and ensuring the safety of the U.S. nuclear arsenal, and the ridiculous situation of instantly regretting firing nuclear safety personnel but being unable to get in touch with them to rescind the dismissal.
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- [00:01]
Rachel Maddow
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows Now, ad free + ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. And all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:30]
Chris Hayes
Really happy to have you here. Great to have you with us. Today, of course, was President's Day and today we saw protests all over the country once again in Washington, D.C. yes, as you see in the upper left hand corner of your screen here, but also in state capitals all across the country. You see there Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and Denver, Colorado. And look at that, Columbia, South Carolina, big turnout. The same coalition, same group that organized protests at 50 state capitals a couple of weeks organized these as well today. Big turnout, lots of places. And you know, it wasn't just at state capitals. We saw pretty big turnout at a lot of town halls, city halls, any location basically that has anything to do with government. You can see some of the images here from outside city hall in Orlando, Florida and San Francisco. Also big protests in Seattle and in Philly. We're going to be looking in detail at some of those big protests today all over the country. That's coming up in just a few minutes. You will want to see that for sure. We're also going to be talking with a US Senator who joined the protest at his state Capitol today. U.S. senator Chris Van Hollen is going to be joining us live here this hour in just a few minutes. So there's a lot to lot to show you, a lot to talk about in terms of how that all went down today. A big national day of protest against the Trump administration. We'll get to all of that. But we are going to start tonight here, here on Nuclear Street.
- [02:08]
Unknown
Nuclear Street, Proton Lane, Bombing Range Road, the atomic body shop, atomic plumbing, Atomic health center, atomic bowling, even an atomic supermarket. Atomic. Atomic. Atomic. Where are we anyway? A Captain Marvel comic book. No, we're in the state of Washington, Richland, Pasco and Kennewick. The Tri City area around the Hanford nuclear site. That's where they produce the plutonium that America dropped on Nagasaki. The high school, home of the bombers. Inside the front entrance, believe it or not, a bomb inlaid into the floor. And on the football helmets, mushroom clouds.
- [02:47]
Chris Hayes
That's from the Today show in 1983. A profile on the Hanford nuclear site in Washington state. The Hanford nuclear site, Richland Washington was opened as part of the Manhattan Project during World War II. And when that very cheery, slightly eerie Today show story, and it ran 40 years later, Hanford at that point in 1983 was still chugging along, still open. The last of Hanford's nine nuclear reactors was not shut down until 1987. That shutdown was in the wake of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster in the Soviet Union in 1986. That 1986 disaster had a way of focusing the world's attention on the threat of mass radioactive contamination. And again, Hanford shut down its last nuclear reactor the following year. But you don't just shut down a nuclear site like that and walk away. Hanford has continued to be a site not only of national security importance, but also of frequent news coverage. Much less cheery news coverage over the years, but all about that same site.
- [04:01]
Unknown
The first official calculations of radiation exposure around Hanford in the late 1940s took many by surprise. The levels announced today by a government appointed study group were high. Radiation is measured in RADs, one RAD equal to about a dozen chest X rays. The new study calculates that more than 13,000 people got doses of at least 33 rads, the same as 400 chest x rays. And a small number of infants may have gotten doses up to 2,900 rads to their thyroids, mostly from drinking the milk of cattle grazing on radioactive grasses. The government limits nuclear power workers to less than 1 rad exposure a year, limits weapons workers to 5 rads. The Chernobyl nuclear accident in the Soviet Union exposed many to 1500 rads. But that's still only half as much as the 2,900 rad exposures around Hanford. UCLA radiation specialist Dr. Robert Gale, who treated Chernobyl victims, worries about Hanford. So one may expect now or in the future to see thyroid abnormalities and.
- [05:05]
Very likely thyroid cancers.
- [05:07]
Tom Bailey farms downwind of Hanford. Many of his relatives have had cancer over the years. Today he was angry at the polluters. Who the hell do they think they are?
- [05:18]
Chris Hayes
That was from 1990, not long after Hanford stopped operating as a nuclear production facility and the country started contemplating the seriousness of the contamination problem. There it was not just cows grazing on radioactive grasses. Over the years, it's been radioactive bunnies and radioactive tumblewee. And ultimately the revelation that it was tens of millions of leaking radioactive waste. Over Hanford's 40 plus years in business, that facility produced nearly two thirds of the plutonium that was used to build our American arsenal of nuclear weapons. It also created a massive 580 square mile site that is believed to be the most contaminated radioactive site in the Western Hemisphere. You might remember last week we talked about that sort of insane drone footage that we got, video footage that we got of the drone hitting Chernobyl. Russia crashed what appears to have been a drone carrying explosives into the big concrete and steel cocoon, the big sarcophagus that encases the destroyed nuclear reactor at Chernobyl from that radioactive, radioactive site in Ukraine in the former Soviet Union. That site from Chernobyl they've got that reactor encased, actually has sort of a twin in Hanford. Hanford has also built those same kinds of protective casings, that same kind of reinforced sarcophagus or cocoon around their dead destroyed reactors. And the point of those very eerie structures is to contain the radioactivity inside those destroyed nuclear sites until sometime in the future, they may be cooled off some. And hopefully by then we'll have better technology for handling so much waste and debris that is so radioactive. In August 1976, there was an explosion at one of the buildings at Hanford. And that building where that explosion happened was so radioactive that they could not open it up to start cleaning it until 29 years after the explosion happened in 1980. The rumor it happened was sealed in 1989. They didn't open it up to start cleaning it until 2005. I don't know what your job is or what the hardest job is that you've ever had, but I'm going to venture a guess that none of us have any envy for the American heroes who do the work of suiting up into hazmat suits and respirators and entering those facilities at Hanford and handling the tens of millions of gallons of radioactive waste that is currently leaking out of those underground tanks that date back to the 1940s. Mostly what they're trying to do now is vitrify it. You know the word vitrification? It means to turn something into glass. They're trying to turn much of the radioactive waste at Hanford now into glass in these massive vitrification plants because they're hoping that if they turn it into glass, it won't leak again when they bury it because it won't seep because it's glass. I mean, one of the things we have to do as a country is manage that mess that we made at that site. Sure, we needed all that plutonium, okay? But in making it, we really did create the most contaminated radioactive site in the Western Hemisphere, which happens to be in an inhabited US State right in the middle of our country. Right? And so that that work, that terrifying, painstaking, very difficult, very expensive work, just has to be done. Radioactivity does not clean itself up. And if you leave it alone, it has a way of following you home. Donald Trump just fired the people who do that work at the Hanford nuclear site. Headline, Trump layoffs Leave Hanford Nuclear site with skeleton crew. Senator Patty Murray, Democrat of Washington, quote, the Trump administration has begun indiscriminately laying off Hanford workers in Washington State. Trying to run Hanford with a skeleton crew is a recipe for disaster that could have irreversible impacts. Cutting the people who do cleanup work, security engineers, they're cutting in Hanford. In the Pacific Northwest, there is still a working commercial nuclear reactor that feeds the largest electricity supplier in that part of the country, which is the Bonneville Power Administration. Trump, in addition to firing the cleanup crews at Hanford, also just fired hundreds of people, more than 600 employees who keep the lights on at Bonneville, too. Mass layoffs at Bonneville Power Administration raise concerns about reliability of power grid. They're firing electricians there, engineers, line workers, cybersecurity experts. Again, that's the power grid, the biggest electricity supplier in the Pacific Northwest, including some of their electricity being supplied by a big commercial nuclear plant. Is that what you voted for? Cutting the people who maintain the power grid? Cutting the security engineers who manage the cleanup at one of the worst sites of nuclear contamination in the world, which is in our country. Trump has also now started firings at the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, which does, among other things, nuclear security. You know, we also have a whole National Nuclear Security Administration, or at least we did. Now we don't have a whole one because of what Trump has decided to do to them. I mentioned that footage from last week from Chernobyl, when that Russian drone smashed into the reactor shield at the Chernobyl nuclear site last week. One of the reasons we knew that was very bad, but it wasn't a radioactivity catastrophe, is because our own government, one of our own agencies in the federal government, the National Nuclear Security Administration, maintains sensors at the Chernobyl nuclear site to monitor in case anything goes wrong there. So when that Russian drone attack hit the Chernobyl reactor sarcophagus, one of the ways we were able to be sure that that didn't result in a catastrophic release of radioactivity is because we've got expert nuclear monitoring at that site that is maintained by the National Nuclear Security Administration, which is part of the federal government here at home. The National Nuclear Security Administration maintains and refurbishes and ensures the safe and secure storage and transportation and maintenance of our nation's thousands of nuclear weapons. NNSA runs the national nuclear labs. They develop nuclear propulsion systems for our nuclear submarines. They are the people in charge of making sure that terrorists don't get their hands on a nuclear weapon or that nuclear weapons technology doesn't get stolen and sold on the black market. They are also in charge of making our new nuclear weapons and inspecting those weapons. And Trump is firing them, firing hundreds of them. The agency only has like 1900, 2000 people. Thursday night, they sent out termination notices to more than 300 of them. Termination notices reportedly to hundreds of staff of the small, expert, professional, very important National Nuclear Security Administration. Isn't there anything about the name of that agency that might suggest to you that maybe this isn't the best place to make cuts? What about National Nuclear Security Administration bugs you and makes you think that one is dispensable? Do you want to ask your mom, how old are you? You ever worked in this field? By Friday, the geniuses in the Trump administration had maybe Googled what this agency does or something, maybe heard from a few members of Congress. And so after sending out those firing, those termination notices on Thursday night, they tried on Friday to take it back. They tried to unfire the hundreds of people from the National Nuclear Security Administration that they had just fired the night before. But because again, they're geniuses, they fired these people effective immediately, and cut all of these people off from their work email and all their work computer systems and everything. And then a day later, when they decided, ooh, maybe we shouldn't have fired the National Nuclear Security Administration, they had no way to get in touch with all those people they had just fired to say, oops, sorry, please, will you come back? This is the level of expertise and efficiency dealing with with this new administration. Trump administration officials on Friday, quote, attempted to notify some employees who had been let go the day before that they are now due to be reinstated. But they struggled to find them because they did not have their new contact information. In an email sent to employees at the National Nuclear Security Administration, obtained by NBC News, officials wrote, quote, the termination letters for some NNSA employees are being rescinded, but we do not have a good way to get in touch with those personnel. Do you know any of them? Could you drive around your neighborhood, knock on some doors, see if we can get our National Nuclear Security Administration personnel back? Because we don't know how to find them. The president of the United States allowed his top campaign donor to send basically random, unvetted young people with no experience and no subject matter expertise at all into the agency that keeps America's nuclear weapons secure. And Donald Trump had those kids fire the people who work to keep America's nuclear weapons secure. And he had them fire them without those kids apparently having any idea what those people in that agency do, and without any way to get them back once they realized, okay, maybe, no, that wasn't a good one. Has it occurred to any of you to maybe resign if you're running a government this way on national nuclear security grounds alone? Have you considered resigning? People have resigned for much smaller sins and much less damage to their country than this. Have you been any part of this process in the White House, in Doge, any part of the Trump administration that has overseen the accidental firing of the National Nuclear Security Administration? Have you considered resigning? This weekend, USA Today reports that 20 people in the Office of Neurological and Physical Medicine Devices at the FDA were just fired. Perhaps coincidentally, that is the unit at the FDA that was investigating Elon Musk's company, the company that he owns that wants to graft computer chips onto people's brains. People doing that oversight work for Elon Musk's company who just fired at the fda. And on that point, on that story, here's the thing we're seeing over and over again now. Quote, the dismissal letters sent to FDA reviewers cited performance reasons, even though these employees had no issues on their prior performance and had had received top notch rankings several weeks ago, according to two sources familiar with the matter. So they're being told they're being fired for performance reasons, but there's nothing in any of their performance reviews that would support that. In fact, quite the contrary. We're seeing that at FDA where they fired people who were in charge of regulating the computer chips Elon Musk wants to graft into your brain. We're also seeing similar reports in the firings of the National Nuclear Security Administration, folks. People being told they're being fired for poor performance even though there's nothing in their performance review history that would suggest any poor performance. Same thing is happening among people being fired at USDA and at the Department of Education and at the U.S. forest Service and at the VA and at the Small Business Administration and at the Department of Transportation. NBC News reviewed documentation there that shows people being fired supposedly for performance reasons had just received, quote, exceptional performance reviews. And so I don't know if the pattern here seems as obvious to everybody as it does to me, but it seems to me like it's a pattern, right? There was no $50 million in condoms for Gaza that Hamas used to make their bombs. There are no 150 year old Americans getting Social Security checks. The Reuters news agency did not get a government contract to deceive the public. The government does not fund the New York Times or Politico to produce positive stories about Democrats. The US Government does not pay for celebrity junkets to Ukraine. That was literally Russian propaganda. And the US Government is not right now trying to fire hundreds of thousands of people who work in the US Government because they've all had bad performance reviews. This isn't happening. One way to tell when somebody doesn't actually have a good reason for what they're doing is when every reason they give you for that thing is very obviously made up. None of the things they're saying about why they need to do these mass and in many cases apparently illegal firings holds up once you put it up to the light. But they're going ahead. They're now firing the people who work at the CDC on bird flu. As bird flu becomes a massive multi state epidemic affecting tens of millions of animals in America and increasingly people, they have now stopped all of the programs in Mexico run by the State Department's Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement. What do these programs in Mexico do for the State Department's Bureau of International Narcotics Law Enforcement? What do they do? Oh, that's the part of the US Government that tries to stop the supply chain for fentanyl coming into this country. All of their actions have been stopped. They've now started firing people at the part of HHS that funds childcare and Head Start. They are firing the people who work at Gettysburg. They are firing the people who work at Shenandoah national park in Virginia. And you know, and I asked a minute ago, like, who voted for this? Maybe you don't care about any of those things that I just mentioned. Maybe you only care about stopping immigration, about making immigration restriction work like lightning, making that the most important and top priority thing that the U.S. government does. You know, go fast, get people out of here. Maybe that's your motivation. I don't know. I think it might be for some people who voted for Trump. Right. If so, please consider that Trump is also now firing immigration judges in large numbers with no explanation and no notice, with more than 3 million immigration cases backlogged in the system. They are firing the judges who handle those cases, which will grind the system further to a halt because efficiency. Tonight, the Washington Post is reporting and NBC News has confirmed that whatever Trump has sent Elon Musk's people to do at the Social Security Administration, it was apparently alarming enough to the career official running that agency right now that she resigned. Quote, the acting commissioner of the Social Security Administration left her job this weekend after a clash with Elon Musk's US Doge Service over its attempts to access sensitive government records. Again, that's sensitive government records at Social Security. This follows a story also broken this weekend by the Washington Post, that Elon Musk is also trying to access the most sensitive individual tax records that are maintained by the irs. Personal, individual IRS tax records. We're going to be speaking with the reporter who broke both of those stories, the one on Social Security, the one on the irs. We're going to be speaking with him in just a moment. But I also have to note, and I kind of can't believe this, but for the fifth time since Donald Trump was sworn in just four weeks ago, we are also tonight watching developments in yet another plane crash. This time it's a Delta Connections flight that originated in Minneapolis. It crashed on landing at Toronto Pearson International Airport. The flight was carrying 80 people. Eighteen have been injured. Some of them have been hospitalized. The FAA commissioner had taken action against Elon Musk's SpaceX company. Musk demanded his resignation. He resigned on Inauguration Day. Trump didn't bother appointing a replacement to run the FAA until after the first plane crash of this presidency, the mid air collision over the Potomac river in Washington that killed 60. That was soon followed by another deadly plane crash in Northeast Philadelphia which killed people both on the plane and on the ground. That was soon followed by another deadly plane crash in Alaska. In between, we had a plane crash into a tug on the ground at Chicago O'Hare, critically injuring an airport worker. We had a flight catch fire on the tarmac at Houston. Passengers had to evacuate not just down the stairs, but down the slides. We had two planes smash into each other on the ground at Sea Tac. We had a small jet careen off the end of a Runway into another small jet last week in Arrow, Arizona. Four people injured in that crash, one person killed. And now we have had this new crash of the Minneapolis to Toronto flight with the plane now upside down on the Runway, several people in critical condition, excuse me, several people hospitalized. And frankly, what looks like a miracle that people weren't killed. There have been five plane crashes in the United States or in flights originating in the United States since Donald Trump started this second term as president. Four weeks ago, the Trump administration, just between plane crashes four and five, told hundreds of employees at the FAA that they are fired, many of them expecting to be locked out of their offices as of tomorrow, which will be another day. Once again, in the immediate aftermath of yet another plane crash, because we've had five so far since Donald Trump has been in this term. The government does all sorts of things for which we need experience, expertise, accumulated and institutional knowledge, a stable training base and a stable work environment in which professionals can oversee sensitive, complex and life or death matters of a thousand different kinds. What we have now instead is this wreckage. If you voted for Donald Trump, this is what you were voting for. Today, thousands of Americans in dozens of cities and in the US Capitol came out and said no to what's going on. Let's stop this. The view from there and a US Senator who is with them coming up. Stay with us.
- [25:48]
Rachel Maddow
Stay connected with the MSNBC app. Watch your favorite shows live, read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Visit msnbc.comapp to download the first 100 days. Bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.
- [26:15]
Chris Hayes
Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.
- [26:17]
Rachel Maddow
Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.
- [26:21]
Chris Hayes
How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?
- [26:27]
Rachel Maddow
The Rachel Maddow show weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.
- [26:45]
Chris Hayes
There's probably both messaging and policy issues, but as you look to kind of where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?
- [26:55]
Rachel Maddow
The Blueprint with Jen Psaki subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.
- [27:06]
Chris Hayes
As you can see, we are filling up the bleachers and we're going to have to not allow anybody else into the gym. That was Hillsboro, Oregon. This weekend is a middle school gym, obviously a very hot ticket, a very full house. And that was not like some highly anticipated local sports playoff that was not very well attended auditions for the Middle School Musical. This was a political event. This was a town hall. All these people turned out in person on a Saturday night in Hillsboro, Oregon. To come talk to and hear from their U.S. senator, Senator Ron Wyden and that announcer who was saying she was going to have to call capacity. She did end up calling capacity. They had to close the doors, let anybody else in. So many people showed up at this town hall. People were standing out in the hallways outside the gym, listening in on loudspeakers. Senator Wyden participated in two separate town halls this weekend for his constituents in Oregon. The local ABC affiliate reported that between the two events, thousands of people showed up, quote, it is rare for thousands of people to join these town halls, and it might be rare, but it is not just Oregon and it is not just middle school gyms. One of the things we've been trying to keep an eye on recently, recently is telephone town halls that members of Congress have been holding. Members of Congress who have to be in Washington because Congress is in session, but they want to connect with their constituents back home. They want to take questions, they want to tell people what they think is going on. People have been calling into telephone town halls with their members of Congress in massive numbers, like kind of shockingly massive numbers. This, for example, was Congressman Richie Neal of Massachusetts. Last week, from his very messy desk in Washington, more than 8,000 people from his western Massachusetts district dialed into his town hall. This was Congressman Joe Courtney of Connecticut. More than 10,000 people from his district dialed into his town hall. This was another one from Virginia, Congresswoman Jennifer McClellan. She also got 10,000 people from her district to call into a town hall. In Maryland, Congressman Jamie Raskin's district, 13,000 people joined. Look at this one. This is Congresswoman Valerie Fuchsi. She's a relatively new member of Congress from North Carolina. She just started her second term. She held a telephone town hall last week for her North Carolina district. More than 19,000 people called in. Over 19,000. This is becoming a defining feature of what it is to live alongside whatever's going on with this administration. People from every state, red states, blue state, every chance they get an opportunity, people are showing up in person, making time in their day to at least join a telephone town hall. People who by and large are quite upset about what the White House is doing. People wanting to know what they can do. And today, this first President's Day of Donald Trump's second term in office, it was another big day of in person protests. Protesters turned out at state capitols all across the country today. Look at this. Atlanta, Georgia, in the upper left hand corner, Sacramento, California, upper right hand corner, that's Austin, Texas, in the lower left in the lower right. That's Indianapolis. In Boston, Massachusetts today we had tons of protesters. Look at this on the Boston Common. They then marched to the government center and beyond state capitals. These protests were all over City hall in Burlington, Vermont today. Look at that. People climbed up on the snow banks to get some more height, get a better vista. There were protests in Tucson, Arizona and Ellsworth, Maine, Portland, Oregon, Hartford, Connecticut, people turned up in Chicago, Illinois today. In Winter Haven, Florida, there's a huge protest today in New York City in Union Square. Look at that lower left hand side there. New York, New York, also a big turnout in St. Paul, Minnesota where the high temperature today was 4 degrees. This gentleman getting right to the point in St. Paul, freezing my bleep off for democracy. This was the state House in Annapolis, Maryland today. Hundreds of Maryland residents showing up to protest the White house, including Maryland U.S. senator Chris Van Hollen, who was there in person today to rally with his constituents. Senator Chris Van Hollen joins us live here next. Stay with us.
- [31:54]
Rachel Maddow
It's President Trump's first 100 days and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines. What issue matters to you the most? Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the President's policies and promises.
- [32:09]
Chris Hayes
Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody he can count on this group of people again?
- [32:13]
Rachel Maddow
Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.
- [32:34]
Chris Hayes
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [32:39]
Rachel Maddow
Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of msnbc all in one place. Sign up for msnbc daily@msnbc.com get the all new CNBC Sport Newsletter. Alex Sherman brings you exclusive interviews and the biggest news impacting the world of sports, business and media, all straight to your inbox. Sign up for free at cnbc.com sportnewsletter.
- [33:11]
Chris Van Hollen
Elon Musk spent over $280 million to elect Donald Trump. And Donald Trump is now allowing him to rampage through federal agencies. We need to end this illegal power grab and we are going to do it now. We are not going back. Are we going to let Elon Musk take control of the government? Hell, no. Are we going to allow this illegal operation to continue?
- [33:41]
Chris Hayes
That was Senator Chris Van Hollen speaking at multiple protests in Washington, D.C. over these last few weeks, pushing back against Donald Trump and the new administration and specifically against Elon Musk's takeover of federal agencies by power that we have yet to see vested in him in any way that makes sense in terms of U.S. government structure. Today, Senator Chris Van Hollen went to another protest, this time at his own state capitol in Annapolis, Maryland. It was one of a ton of demonstrations all across the country today at state capitals and cities from coast to coast. Joining us now is Senator Chris Van Hollen, Democrat of Maryland. Senator, I really appreciate you making time to be here tonight. I know you've been really busy. Thank you.
- [34:22]
Chris Van Hollen
It's great to be with you, Rachel.
- [34:24]
Chris Hayes
So you are a man who has a job in the United States Senate. You have nevertheless made it a priority to get out there in person person, both at protests in Washington, D.C. and also in Annapolis today in your home state, alongside your constituents who are mad and upset and angry. I guess upset and mad and upset and angry are all synonyms. But I think that pretty much rounds it up about what's going on in Washington. Can you tell us about why that's important to you and what you think the effect is of these demonstrations?
- [34:57]
Chris Van Hollen
Yes. Look, I think we have to fight these illegal actions being taken by the Trump administration and by elite Musk at every juncture. So that means fighting them in the courts. And we've seen judges issue temporary restraining orders. It means fighting them in the Congress with everything we have. We can't be business as usual. And it means mobilizing public opinion around the country. Look, the thing that Trump Musk team would like to see more than anything is for people to be cynical and just sit back while this illegal takeover of the government happens. We have good immune systems in our democracy. And so seeing the public rise up is really important. And the message, Rachel, has to be not only that this is an illegal takeover by Musk and the most corrupt bargain in American history, but really a great betrayal of Donald Trump, of the people who voted for him, because he said he was going to focus on bringing down prices, prices are going up. Instead, he is hollowing out the federal government and cutting services in order to pay for what will be a big tax break for wealthy Americans. So it's very important that we reach out to people across the country and help everyone see that betrayal that's going on.
- [36:22]
Chris Hayes
You Know, I think that they may use some of the cuts that they are pursuing to justify the kind of tax cuts that they want. But I also don't think that they care whether or not those tax cuts are paid for. They've asked for a $4 trillion rise in the debt ceiling. So clearly they're not planning on shrinking down the government's fiscal responsibility to such a great degree that those tax cuts will be paid for. I mean, when we're looking at the kind of stuff they're cutting hundreds of people cut at the FAA in between the fourth and fifth plane crashes that have happened since Trump has been back in office and he's only been there a month. We're looking at them cutting security engineers from nuclear cleanup sites. We're looking at them cutting people who oversee some of the most important, sensitive and subject matter specific sort of non transferable jobs that you could possibly imagine in terms of the US Government. I feel like, and I think some of what you're seeing from your constituents, if I can read those signs, is right, is that they're not just, they're not trying to save money, they're trying to destroy the US Government. They're trying to make the US Government stop functioning in ways that hurt people and that hurt this country. And that to me doesn't seem like it's driven by fiscal concerns.
- [37:35]
Chris Van Hollen
I think there are several things going on. I mean, I definitely think that they want to attack the organs of government and those important services to the American people because they don't like government. I do think they want to create the impression, Rachel, that they're making these huge, quote, efficiency gains and they're going to save all this money and therefore they're going to pay for their tax cuts. The great lie is, as you say, this has nothing to do with government efficiency. Right. If you wanted to make the government more efficient, you wouldn't start by firing all the inspector generals whose job it is to look out for waste, fraud and abuse. Doing that actually clears the way for the kind of corruption that Elon Musk would like to bring to the government. I think what they're trying to do is get the federal government to serve the already powerful and the already wealthy like Elon Musk. That's why they want to shut down the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau that goes after scam artists and fraudsters and returns billions of dollars to American consumers who got cheated. They want privatize the National Weather Service, right at noaa. They want to sell it off to the highest bidder. They want to collect all this very sensitive personal information, Social Security numbers, bank accounts. So I agree that a lot of what they're doing is to destroy government, but also to so weaken it that it can then serve their purposes. And I think they want to create the impression that in the process they're saving money to pay for their tax cuts. All of it is a big lie.
- [39:19]
Chris Hayes
Senator Chris Van Hollen, thank you so much for your time tonight, sir. And thanks for getting out there with your constituents in person to be able to give us that perspective as well. I know we'll be checking in with you in weeks ahead as this, as this story moves on. Thank you, sir.
- [39:35]
Chris Van Hollen
Thank you. All right.
- [39:37]
Chris Hayes
Much more news ahead. Coming specifically on what seems to be going on with Elon Musk, access to the most sensitive personal records stored at the IRS and the Social Security Administration. New reporting tonight that that has resulted in a protest resignation at the very top of Social Security. We've got the reporter who broke both the IRS story and that Social Security story joining us next. Stay with us. Headline Musk's DOGE Seeks Access to Personal Taxpayer Data raising alarm at irs. This is from Jacob Bogage and Jeff Stein at the Washington Post with reporting that has since been confirmed by NBC News and others. Quote, Elon Musk's US DOGE Service is seeking access to a heavily guarded IRS system that includes detailed financial information about every taxpayer, business and nonprofit in the country, according to three people familiar with the activities comma sparking alarm within the tax agency. The Washington Post reporting that DOGE could get access to what's called the Integrated Data retrieval system, which enables tax agency employees to access IRS accounts, including personal identification numbers and bank information. It also lets them enter and adjust transaction data.
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Unknown
Eek.
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Chris Hayes
And automatically generate notices, collection documents and other records. IDRs access is extremely limited. Taxpayers who have had their information wrongfully disclosed or even inspected are entitled by law to monetary damages. The request for DOGE access to the system has raised deep concern within the irs. According to the Washington Post, the White House is pressuring the IRS to give access to this system to one of Elon Musk's gang of young software engineers, a 25 year old who has recently been trying to delete his online history of amplifying white supremacists and praising the writing of a man who became a leading Holocaust denier. This comes as the Washington Post newly reports tonight. And NBC News has also now confirmed that the acting head of the Social Security Administration has suddenly stepped down after what's described as a clash with Musk's team over access to very sensitive data in that system, in the Social Security system. So the Social Security system, that reporting is new, but this IRS reporting, Elon Musk's little helper, is reportedly seeking access to that very, very sensitive IRS system. The White House is reportedly pressuring the IRS to let him have it, but as far as we know, he doesn't have that access yet. So as we're following both of these stories, part of what we need to sort out here is is this something that is threatened? Is this something that is a fait accompli? How will we know? Joining us now is one of the reporters who broke this story, the Washington post, Jacob Bogage. Mr. Bogage, thank you so much for being with us tonight. I appreciate it.
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Jacob Bogage
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
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Chris Hayes
Did I get any of that the wrong way around, or did I did everything I say there comport with your reporting and what you understand as totally checks out. Great. Okay, so as of tonight, do we know whether this young staffer from Elon Musk's team has access to that sensitive IRS system, has even given entree into that system yet?
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Jacob Bogage
We do know he has not gotten access to that. This memorandum of understanding between the White House and the IRS has not been codified yet. There's some details to work out. The IRS is freaking out basically about if and how and whether they should and if they can give that access and who would give it and how is it overseen, and do they trust that that data can be secured? The White House kind of sees this as a fait accompli and for good reason, which is because if the IRS says no, they could just start firing people. And that's exactly what we saw over at Social Security. It's a fait accompli to the White House that their representatives will get this information. And if they don't get it, then people are going to quit or they're gonna be. They're, you know, they're gonna be fired. That's what we're seeing across these agencies when the sensitive data's on the line.
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Chris Hayes
Jacob, in that sequence that you just described, they can obviously, if they want to, and they clearly do, they can fire their way through people who are resisting them one after the other. In some cases, we've heard in some agencies about what sound like almost physical altercations, trying to keep doge people out of skiffs, places where there's classified information and that sort of thing. But the other thing that's often oper is the potential for a legal challenge, some sort of injunction to stop these staffers, these DOGE people, from accessing systems like this one at the IRS or the one at the Social Security Administration that led to the head of that agency resigning over the weekend, as you also reported. Do we know about whether legal threats are sort of part of the mix here with these sensitive systems?
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Jacob Bogage
They are, but it's a little bit trickier when we've talked about legal threats at irs. The main one we're watching right now is these mass firings that we expect at IRS that could be 9,10,000 employees in one fell swoop. Legal challenges there are really potent when it comes to systems control. Eventually, these people just serve at the pleasure of the president of the United States. It's pretty easy to fire them on down the line.
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Chris Hayes
Washington Post reporter Jacob Bogage, who, along with your colleagues, has been a bit of a scoop machine on on this beat. Thank you for your reporting. Thanks for helping us to understand it. And come back when you got new stuff. Thank you.
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Jacob Bogage
Thanks for having me.
- [45:38]
Chris Hayes
All right. We'll be right back. Stay with us. All right, that's going to do it for me for now. I will see you again tomorrow and every night this week at 9pm Eastern.
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Rachel Maddow
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