← The Rachel Maddow Show
The Rachel Maddow Show
Heckuva time to make an appearance: Trump's FEMA chief drops in on Texas flood zone
00:44:00
Rachel Maddow introduces viewers to the unfamiliar image of Donald Trump's pick to lead FEMA, David Richardson, who finally made an appearance in Texas more than a week after flooding killed scores of people.
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- [00:01]
Rachel Maddow
If you could hear love, what would it sound like? Son, can we talk about your drinking? Yeah, Dad, I think we should. Helping those closest to you think about their excessive drinking. Maybe that's what love sounds like. More@rethinkthedrink.com An OHA initiative. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [01:00]
Tim Weiner
Really happy to have you here. You ready? Pop quiz. Who is this man? Who is this man? There's several men in this picture. Can we zoom in, please, on the man in question? Ah, now I know what you're thinking. You're thinking maddo, honestly, can you please not zoom in any further? I get it, I get it. You're talking about the Saturday Night Fever guy here. We don't need to see this any closer. We understand. Okay, I get it. How about a different view? Same guy, same number of buttons. But you are perhaps not as distressed by that in this picture because it's very hard not to focus in this picture on the hat. And actually this one. It gets worse if you zoom out rather than zoom in. Somehow the hat actually gets worse and more alarming when you see it in a broader context. Usually getting closer makes things worse, but in this case, something about the hat and maybe the shoes. I don't know. Maybe just the contrast with the normal person standing next to him. I don't know. I don't know. Somehow worse, wider. Do you know who this person is? It's okay if you don't. I'm about to tell you who it is, and honestly, it's still not going to help. His name is David Richardson. And I don't know if that name means anything to you. It probably doesn't. It's okay if it doesn't. But here's who he is. You might remember, if you're old enough to remember, you might remember that when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, the person who President George W. Bush had put in charge of FEMA was a guy he called Brownie. Remember? Heck of a job, Brownie. His name was Michael Brown. And Republican President George W. Bush, in his infinite wisdom, had put Michael Brown in charge of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Put him in charge of fema. This is a man whose main experience in disasters was that he had caused some minor organizational disasters in his tenure as head of an Arabian horse association. How did he end up at fema? I don't know. He was a friend of George W. Bush's campaign manager, and he was a Republican. And once when he was a kid, he had been the assistant to Edmond, Oklahoma's city manager. That had been, I think, back in the late 1970s, maybe the early 80s. That was as close as he ever got to relevant experience in running disaster management for the federal government before George W. Bush elevated him for some reason, to FEMA. But then we really needed FEMA. Hurricane Katrina hit and more than 1,000 people died, and we all but lost a beautiful and historic and important major American city. And in the aftermath of that, President George W. Bush inexplicably allowed himself to be photographed flying over the devastation and looking down on it from the comfort of Air Force One, just peering down like he was enjoying his trip to the aquarium. And as his government's response just failed and failed and failed and failed. And the death toll, day by day, rose and rose. President George W. Bush never could quite answer why he praised the Brownie, why he praised his FEMA director, Michael Brown, for doing a heck of a job. Or more importantly, why he'd put this guy, why he'd put the Arabian Horse association guy with zero disaster experience in that job in the first place. And so this this guy. Answer to your pop quiz tonight. This is David Richardson. He is Republican President Donald Trump's appointee to run fema. And I'm sorry that these are the kinds of photos that we've got of him, but these are the photos that we've got of him. For now, just for the first time, we've got photos of him because the Guadalupe river in Central Texas burst its banks and rose more than 20ft in an hour in the overnight hours, the night of Thursday, July 3, and all of those people died and all of those kids died. And we did not see the guy running FEMA for Donald Trump when that happened. And then it was July 4th the next day, and we didn't see anybody from FEMA. And then it was July 5th, and we didn't see him from FEMA. And then it was july 6th, and we didn't see him from FEMA. And then it was Jul 7th, and we didn't see HIM from FEMA. And then it was Jubly 8th, and then it was Jul 9th, and then it was Jul 10th. And then it was Jul 11th. And then finally it was finally this weekend when he showed up for the first time. The first time anybody had seen hide or hair of President Donald Trump's man running FEMA after one of the biggest floods in this country in decades was this weekend when he finally showed up. And this is him. In the immediate aftermath of the flood, Trump's Homeland Security Department, of which FEMA is a part of, they apparently forgot or at least neglected to extend the contract to pay the people who answer the phones when you call FEMA for help. So all the people at the FEMA call center got fired on July 5, and more than 80% of calls for help after the flood did not get answered as of the Monday after the flood. So it's not like there weren't questions for Trump's FEMA director to answer, hey, why'd you guys fire all the people answering the phones in the immediate aftermath of the disaster when everybody was calling for help? It's not like he didn't have questions to answer. But he didn't make it there till this weekend. So I'm sure it was, you know, hard just getting oriented and stuff. What does this mean here? Let me tell you why it's really important to get your hat right for things like this. Image is everything, young man. You definitely don't want to make the kinds of insensitive mistakes that other people have very famously made after disasters like this in our country. So make sure you don't make any of these exact same mistakes. Did I mention that Trump's FEMA pick is the first person to run FEMA since Brownie, who has no disaster response or emergency management experience at all? He did remember that great photo of George W. Bush, though, and made sure to take pains to replicate it exactly this weekend. Did you know that he had no disaster management, no emergency management experience at all? Or was that just clear from the photos? Did I not need to say that? I mean, if you knew anything about this person before, if you knew anything about before, about who it was that Donald Trump put in charge of emergency management for the American government, it was probably headlines like these. After he told FEMA staff that he was unaware that there was such thing as a hurricane season, the White House tried to say that was all just a big misunderstanding. Of course, he must have been joking. But now at least we have something else to picture. Now we know what he looks like. So when you think of the Donald Trump presidency and what it looks like for them to be in charge of really, really really important parts of now. At least you can picture this or you can picture this. President Trump promised to end the wars. He promised to release the Epstein files. Did anyone really think the sexual predator president who used to party with Jeffrey Epstein was going to release the Epstein files? Democratic Georgia US Senator John Ossoff this weekend speaking at a kind of huge town hall rally that he held in Savannah, Georgia. Look at this. Jon Ossoff is not up for reelection until next year. One Georgia Democrat who attended this rally in Savannah this weekend told the Atlanta Journal Constitution that even though that election is nearly 16 months away, the energy, the atmosphere at that rally for Jon Ossoff, for the Democratic senator from Georgia, quote, had more of a month out from the election feel than a 16 months out from the election feel. Some of that crowd very obviously fired up about this debacle Senator Ossoff was describing in which the President and his administration have riled their supporters into believing every conspiracy theory under the sun about the Jeffrey Epstein case. And then they nevertheless abruptly announced that all the conspiracy theories about Jeffrey Epstein must now be over and we will never talk about them again. And, no, we're not going to release any more information about this case. Even though we told you not only for years leading up to the election, but for months since the election, that we would reveal all about this terrible conspiracy. Now we plan to reveal none. And you should shut up about it. I mean, whatever you think about the conspiracy theories around Jeffrey Epstein, the consternation and bewilderment that Trump has caused his own people and his own movement and his own strongest supporters on that issue is just a deeply, deeply, profoundly stupid political screw up, and one that they apparently have no way out of. It's just getting worse for them every single day. Also, in their infinite wisdom, you might have seen today that the Pentagon made a big announcement about AI Huge new spending on artificial intelligence at the Pentagon. And I don't know about you, but I'm thinking they probably knew for a little while at least, that they were gonna make this investment, that they were gonna have to make an announcement about this big new investment. And I don't know, I never worked for the government or anything, but something tells me that if I was gonna make an announcement about the US Military adopting Grok, adopting Elon Musk's AI Chatbot, I might adjust the timing on that announcement so it did not come immediately. On the heels of all of the recent headlines about Elon Musk's AI Chatbot, Grok proclaiming itself to be Hitler and calling for the extermination of the Jewish people and giving detailed strategic instructions on how best to get away with rape. I don't know, seeing headlines like that. If I knew we had a big GROK announcement to make, I might maybe hit pause on that for a minute. Maybe hit pause on the plan to announce that the US Military is hereby adopting grok. But nope, they made that announcement today. They're not sending their best Trump had previously said he was going to abolish fema. His Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem, had said proudly at a Cabinet meeting on camera that her job was to abolish fema. Now, apparently they seem not so sure. They may not abolish FEMA after all. After the debacle in Texas and all those people killed, they apparently do still want to abolish the Department of Education for some reason, even though by huge majorities, the American people do not want them to abolish the Department of Education. The right wing majority on the U.S. supreme Court today ruled that Trump can go ahead with his plans to end the U.S. department of Education despite the fact that Congress established it and appropriates its funds. The Social Security Administration has been so destroyed by Trump that not only the website but the helpline for people to call to get their Social Security problems sorted out has repeatedly crashed and become non functional. Now we learn that the Social Security Administration under Donald Trump is going to take 1,000 people out of their already swamped and broken field offices to put those people to work instead on their swamped and broken telephone helpline. Because that's how Trump is handling the previously just fine, totally normal agency that used to run Social Security without any problems at all. They really, really are not sending their best and the country knows it. This was the protest this weekend at the Texas State Capitol in Austin, Texas. Trump drowns Texas Kids See all the orange in this picture? That's people wearing life jackets at this protest in Texas this weekend. Trump drowns Texas Kids Fun Sirens not Big Oil fun. FEMA not fracking. This is the protest this weekend in New Mexico in Santa Teresa, New Mexico. Locals there turning out to protest Trump's quiet new declaration that this whole swath of New Mexico is now officially a militarized zone where the US Military is in charge here on US Soil. Trump has quietly turned hundreds of miles of land in multiple states into military zones and put the US Active duty military in charge of policing these huge zones. Even though the US Military under law is not allowed to police the domestic civilian population of this country. This Was the protest this weekend outside Trump Tower in New York City, a protest to stop Trump from closing down the 988 suicide prevention hotline for LGBT kids, which Trump has slated to shut down as of this week. These were protests this weekend in Charleston, South Carolina. Group rallying in all different sites all over Charleston this weekend under the banner silence is not an option. This was Tacoma, Washington this weekend where people protested outside the ICE immigration prison this weekend in Tacoma, while simultaneously in nearby Seattle, people held a party to celebrate the elderly Seattle woman who has lived in this country for decades, who they were successfully able to get released from ICE custody by protesting on her behalf. Celebrate the win. Show people that protest works. Protest at least helps. This was Memphis, Tennessee today. Protesters in procession led by the Reverend William Barber and other members of the clergy. So they're holding coffins. Coffins to signify the people who will likely die when millions of Americans are cut off their health insurance by the bill Republicans just passed and Trump just signed. Again, that's Memphis, Tennessee today. This was Little Rock, Arkansas this weekend. Hundreds of people had to move their anti Trump protest under an underpass simply for the shade because of the summer heat. But still hundreds of people turned out in Arkansas. Little Rock, Arkansas. This was New Iberia, Louisiana at a protest they called Good Trouble this weekend. You're going to hear that phrase this week. A lot more than 1,500 different towns and cities across the country are planning Good Trouble protests against President Donald Trump this Thursday, July 17, on the birthday of civil rights icon John Lewis. You know, towards the end of George W. Bush's disastrous presidency, the book Legacy of Ashes won the National Book Award. A history of the CIA. It quickly established itself as the definitive history of the CIA during the whole 20th century. This book also induced a lot of people to learn the history of the CIA in the 20th century. Because this book, Legacy of Ashes, not only won the National Book Award, it also sold a ton of copies. And because the author of this book, Tim Weiner, is both Pulitzer Prize winner and a really, really, really good writer. I can't put this book down kind of writer. That book, Legacy of Ashes, became one of those rare nonfiction bestsellers where everyone who bought it actually read it, which is rarer than you might think. But with that book and with its success and with the fact that people who bought it actually read it, Tim Weiner did something important. He really cemented, I think, an uncommonly realistic but not complementary popular understanding of one very important and potentially lethal part of our nation's government. Our premier national intelligence organization, the CIA. And even as the CIA has had notable successes and even as what we imagine about the CIA has spawned a gazillion spy novels and TV shows that I love as much as anyone. If you just look at the top line history of the CIA in terms of what it's supposed to do, that history in the 20th century country as summarized in Legacy of Ashes, it's basically a litany of how much the CIA has screwed up all of the most important stuff, right? If the bottom line for a spy agency is in fact spying, if what they are supposed to do is find out other countries secrets and give the US government a heads up on what important things are about to happen in the world. Well, the CIA doesn't for most of its history have a good track record at all. The CIA was founded in 1947. Two years later in 1949, they were totally surprised when the Soviet Union exploded a nuclear bomb. The year after that, they were totally surprised when North Korea invaded South Korea. Throughout the whole next decade, they were totally surprised by the uprisings in Eastern Europe against the Soviet Union in 1962. Ooh, wow. Seriously, what the Soviets have missiles in Cuba? Totally surprised by that. In 1973, the CIA did not foresee the Arab Israeli war. They did not foresee the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. They did not foresee the Iranian revolution, they did not foresee the collapse of the Soviet Union. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, they learned about that in the newspaper like all the rest of us. So it's the record is not good. Even before they cooked the intel on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to give George W. Bush the pretext he wanted for his disastrous invasion of Iraq in 2003. Even before that, the legacy was not good. Hence Legacy of ashes. Right, but what do we do with knowing that kind of history now? Now in this moment that we are in, because now we've got a presidency underway, that makes you wonder whether it's still okay to call the George W. Bush presidency disastrous. Right? If we're going to grade on a curve, I think it's still okay. But you have to think about it. I mean, now we've got a presidency underway where in comparison, you know, maybe Brownie wasn't so bad as FEMA chief, where in the intelligence world they kicked things off at the start of this presidency by sending the President's top campaign donor a list of all the new CIA officers in an unclassified email and then gave him and this mysterious government agency that he was supposedly running gave them access to the operating budgets for all of America's intelligence agencies, including their covert payment systems. Meaning they gave the President's top campaign donor a roadmap to all the sources and spies the CIA secretly has on the payroll everywhere in the world. Don't worry though. It's not like the President will ever have a falling out with that campaign donor. Not like they'll ever be at odds or want to do something to hurt each other. Right now we've got a presidency where Trump's hand picked Director of National Intelligence is described on Russian state television as a, quote, Russian agent and as quote, our girlfriend. And right now, according to the Washington Post, she is pursuing a genius plan to collect all, all internal communications from our country's intelligence agencies, all of them, so she can run AI tools on those communications to root out the President's secret enemies or something. I don't exactly know what they're looking for, but definitely put all the secret internal communications of all the spy agencies into one big pile and then start running outside software on them. Sure. What could possibly go wrong? It's not like they ever talk about anything sensitive or dangerous. Right? I mean, so that's, that's where we are now, right? In the midst of the dismantling of much of what counts as the US Government, including some of the important bits. And it is one thing to be critical and hard eyed and realistic about the failings of really important and lethally powerful parts of the US Government. It's very important, in fact. But it feels different to do that now when we are in the middle of an authoritarian takeover by somebody who is trying to consolidate dictatorial powers and destroy the US Government to do it. And that's the moment that we are in. And in that moment, Tim Weiner tomorrow is publishing his follow up. It's called the the CIA in the 21st century. It's 25 years of a lot of disasters and also some brilliant successes like for example, dismantling the A. Q. Khan nuclear smuggling ring and the Biden era CIA correctly and publicly predicting every single thing about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. But it culminates now with the decline into authoritarianism that American citizens are fighting actively right now under underpasses in Little Rock and in borderlands in New Mexico and everywhere in between. And it culminates with this, I think, really important and powerful warning about how dangerous are very powerful, very flawed, very unaccountable government agencies could be in the hands of an authoritarian, in the hands of somebody trying to consolidate a dictatorship and I quote, america faced danger at home and abroad as the president assaulted its civil liberties and democratic institutions, seeking defense. Finish the job his mob had started. The instruments of its intelligence and national security were in the hands of amateurs and toadies. The foundations of its foreign policy are corroding and crumbling. The State Department was shuttering embassies and consulates around the world. The diplomatic cover they gave dozens of CIA stations and bases was disappearing. The ranks of the CIA's most experienced spies and analysts were thinning. Its irreplaceable ties to its closest international allies were fraying. The risk of a catastrophic, catastrophic intelligence failure was as high as it had been at the start of the 21st century with 9 11. Imagine what could happen if the United States were struck again by a surprise attack in days to come. What would stop the president from declaring martial law or canceling elections? Could Congress or the Supreme Court oppose him? Who would disobey him if he ordered the clandestine service to rebuild the secret prisons, to overthrow a sovereign nation, or to assassinate his political enemies? The CIA did not defy presidents, but the CIA officers with the greatest morality could resist him. And years might pass before their stories would be told. Pulitzer Prize winner National Book Award winner Tim Weiner joins us here next. Stay with us.
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Rachel Maddow
MSNBC Films presents season two of Leguizamo Das America, an NBC News Studios production hosted by John Leguizamo. On the next episode, John travels to Denver, Colorado.
- [25:51]
Tim Weiner
These days, Denver is a surprising blend of cultures, and one thing's for certain, everyone living in this city has a unique way of preserving their own traditions.
- [26:00]
Rachel Maddow
Leguis has continue Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter, sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com it might be enticing.
- [26:24]
Jon Favreau
To try and sleep through the next four years, but if you're wondering how to survive a second Trump term while staying fully conscious of Pod Save America is here to help you process what's happening now and what comes next. I'm Jon Favreau and Tommy Vietor, Jon Lovett and Dan Pfeiffer, and I wade hip deep into the week's political news and fish out some political analysis you can trust. Yes, Tommy's shoes get ruined. Yes, he'll do it again tomorrow because the endeavor is worth it and so is your sanity. Tune into Pod Save America wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.
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Tim Weiner
In January, President Trump said if Russia didn't End the war in Ukraine. He would hit him with new sanctions and also tariffs. Vladimir Putin ignored him and then Trump did nothing in response. Then in March, Trump made the same threat again, sanctions or tariffs. And once again, Putin ignored him and Trump did nothing in response. A couple weeks later, Trump made lots of headlines by saying that he was, quote, very angry, so angry with Vladimir Putin. He threatened that he would put tariffs on Russia. Really meant it this time, and Putin ignored him and Trump did nothing in response. Then in May, shockingly, the exact same thing. Trump threatened sanctions if Putin did not end the war in Ukraine. And Putin effectively laughed in his face and escalated the war in Ukraine. And Trump did nothing in response. And that brings us to today. And can you guess how it went? Trump threatens very severe sanctions, very severe tariffs against Russia. Have no Ukraine deal within 50 days. So Putin gets to keep doing whatever he wants in Ukraine for another 50 days. But after that, if Putin doesn't knock it off, then look out. Trump says he's going to impose tariffs. Tariffs like he's imposing on every other country in the world. And even if he did follow through this time, to think he will, since we don't do any trade with Russia, tariffs would mean nothing to them at all. It's like multiplying by zero. Doesn't matter the multiple. It's always zero impact. If you feel embarrassed watching the President of the United States of America embarrass himself over and over and over again when it comes to his bootlicking relationship with Russia and Vladimir Putin, just imagine watching it from Inside youe Career at the CIA. The Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Tim Weiner has this new book that's coming out tomorrow about the CIA in the 21st century. He did an extraordinary number of on the record interviews with longtime CIA agents and officers who are generally not the world's most talkative people. Weiner writes that over these last six months, as Trump has moved to upend just about every institution in the post World War II International Order for CIA Veterans, quote, what truly shocked their conscience was Trump's cold betrayal of Ukraine and his open embrace of Russia. He continues, quote, for a decade, American spies, politicians, citizens and journalists had wondered aloud about the President's affinity for Putin. Was Trump really his useful idiot? Could the Russians have something on him? Was it conceivable that he had been recruited or had he recruited himself? Was it simply that he liked Putin because he wanted to be like Putin, an autocrat with absolute power? It had been a mystery, but now the answer was apparent, as clear as A bolt of lightning. Trump wasn't Putin's agent. He was his ally. The president of the United States had gone over to the other side. Joining us now is Tim Weiner. He's the author of the Indispensable history of the CIA in the 20th Legacy of Ashes. And his new book comes out tomorrow. It is the the Mission the CIA in the 21st century. And it's excellent. Tim, thanks very much for being here. Congratulations on the book. I know this was a labor of love, but one that took a long time and a lot of work.
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Maxwell Frost
Thanks, Rachel. It was a labor of love.
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Tim Weiner
Let me ask you about that last point I just mentioned. Why is Trump's stance toward Russia and Ukraine so particularly galling and upsetting for so many people you spoke to at the CIA?
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Maxwell Frost
Since 2014, when Putin seized the Crimea and parts of eastern Ukraine, the CIA has been on the ground in Kyiv and beyond, working to help Ukraine survive. And it has played a crucial role in that survival. When the CIA stole Putin's war plans for Ukraine in late 2021 and told the world about it, initially NATO nations were skeptical. Like, really? Aren't you the people that told us that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction? But the intelligence was true and that had an electrifying, galvanizing effect on NATO. And that support flowing from Europe has, in addition to US support, ensured, helped ensure Ukraine's survival. The CIA's been working against the Russians since 1947 and now for a decade for Ukraine. Imagine you wake up, you're a CIA officer and you realize early in this administration that the president of the United States has joined the authoritarian axis, that he is voting with Russia and North Korea and Iran, the United nations, against a resolution condemning Russia's occupation of Ukraine. It was a head spinning, gut wrenching day for them when that vote took place in February. And every day these guys go to work trying to, you know, subvert the Kremlin and support Ukraine. And it's been a difficult six months.
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Tim Weiner
In addition to that reorientation to, as you put it, the authoritarian axis, I feel like one of the things that I and so many others have learned from you about the CIA is that presidents can really misuse it. I mean, presidents can fight with the CIA, they can undermine it, they can throw it under the bus, sure. But they can also use the CIA and manipulate the CIA and some of the mythology around it for nefarious purposes and it to the detriment of the country when it happens. I was struck by a quote by one of the people you spoke to in the book who talked about, you know, recognizing some of the errors that the George W. Bush administration was making around the war on terror as being errors that we would pay for for 40 years in terms of our reputation and our capacity as an international actor when we made something of those mistakes. Given that I've learned so much from you about how presidents have done wrong with and by the CIA. What have you learned about what makes Trump a uniquely dangerous figure again in the eyes of the CIA veterans who you spoke with?
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Maxwell Frost
Ideology is the enemy of intelligence. If you're an ideologue, you don't care what the intelligence says. Your mind is made up. Why be confused with facts? The danger today, Rachel, is that you've got a guy running the CIA, John Ratcliffe, who will tell Trump anything Trump wants to hear. You've got a rank amateur running the Pentagon. You've got a conspiracy theorist as director of national intelligence. And you've got an FBI director who is actively dismantling the national security and counterintelligence directorates at the FBI. This makes us as vulnerable to attack as we were in the months before 9, 11. The risk of a catastrophic intelligence failure with these amateurs and toadies in charge of national security is high. At CIA, you've got thousands of people who are trying to figure out what's going on in the world and warn of dangers over the horizon approaching dangers. The president doesn't want to hear what they have to say. He literally has said, forget about the intelligence. And this is not how it's supposed to work. Intelligence is supposed to inform wise foreign policy. That's not happening.
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Tim Weiner
Tim Weiner is the author of the the CIA and the 21st century. It comes out tomorrow. It reads like a thriller and it's really important in this moment. Tim, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for writing this book. Thank you to your sources for being willing to speak with you and go on the record for this book. It's a remarkable collection of information we never had before and wouldn't have without you. Thank you.
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Maxwell Frost
Thank you, Rachel.
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Tim Weiner
All right, much more ahead. Congressman Maxwell Frost is going to join us live here next. Stay with us.
- [35:44]
Rachel Maddow
Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.
- [35:50]
Tim Weiner
All the stories that we're covering are live and happening as we speak.
- [35:54]
Rachel Maddow
Watch your favorite shows live.
- [35:56]
Jen Psaki
What's happening as right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.
- [36:00]
Rachel Maddow
Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now@msnbc.com app subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcast, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [36:45]
Tim Weiner
They are using cages. These detainees are living in cages. The pictures that you've seen don't do it justice. That was Florida Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Florida Democrat, describing the conditions at what she, I think reasonably is calling the Trump administration's new internment camp the immigration prison. The Trump administration in the state of Florida have stood up in the Florida Everglades. For weeks now. Protesters have been making their opposition to this new prison camp known. Protests like this signs like these swamps not cells and Stop Alligator Alcatraz and no concentration camps on preserved land. And you know, don't let anybody tell you that pushback and protest don't have an effect. One of the ways you can see it have an effect is through the heaven sent divine miracle that is shame. Since the country has learned about this internment camp and protests against it have happened in Florida and all across the country, companies whose food trucks had been seen coming and going from the site have made public apologies for their involvement. Contractors who worked on the site have started covering up the logos on their trucks with tape and cardboard, even hiding their dot their Department of Transportation tracking numbers, which is something you are not supposed to do. This weekend, the Miami Herald managed to get a list of prisoners who are already being held in this Everglades prison camp or who are slated for transfer into it. Of the number of people that they found on this list, the Herald found that a huge proportion of them have no criminal convictions at all or any pending charges in the United States. They keep saying it's the worst of the worst, but these are people with no criminal convictions and no pending charges. As the Everglades immigration prison has sprung up and filled up elected Democrats, Democratic lawmakers have been pushing hard too. They've tried to get inside to perform their oversight duties to see what the conditions inside are like so they can tell the country what's going on there. They're not letting this place become a secret black site. A week and a half ago, it was state level lawmakers, Florida Democrats, they were turned away at the site. So they filed a lawsuit to be allowed to get in. Before their suit could play out in court, the state ultimately invited those lawmakers in. On Saturday, five members of Congress and around 20 state lawmakers, Democrats and Republicans, got what Democrats are calling a sanitized tour of the site. According to Florida Congressman Maxwell Frost, who was among the Democratic members of Congress to tour the facility, these legislators were not allowed to speak directly with any of the prisoners. They were not allowed to see the medical facilities on site. Even so, what they did see sounds difficult to forget.
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Maxwell Frost
People are being held in cages. These cages hold 32 people per cage. There are three toilets in each cage for the group of 32 people. And their drinking water comes from the toilet. There's a little spigot on top of the toilet, and that's where they drink their water.
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Tim Weiner
Congressman Maxwell Frost of Florida joins us live here next. Stay with us.
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Maxwell Frost
We actually heard reports from many immigrants that are within the facility that said, well, yesterday, out of nowhere, they let us take a shower. They hadn't let us take a shower all week. Yesterday, out of nowhere, the food, you know, got a little better than it's been before. And, of course, all of this is in connection to the tour we were doing. That's why these. These. These visits from elected officials are so important.
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Tim Weiner
Florida Democratic Congressman Maxwell Frost describing what he and other Democrats are saying was a sanitized tour that they got this weekend of the immigration prison that Trump and the state of Florida have built in the Everglades. Congressman Frost joins us now live. Sir, thank you very much for being with us tonight. It's a pleasure to have you here.
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Maxwell Frost
Thanks for having me.
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Tim Weiner
Let's talk big picture here for a second. Why is it important to you that you get in there for you as an elected official to see for yourself the conditions in there and for you to describe them to the public?
- [41:10]
Maxwell Frost
Well, number one, it's important because I'm one of the only people that are. That's able to go inside that facility, walk outside of it, and deliver the truth, say exactly what I saw and exactly what's going on. You know, I. When I went in and we were standing at that door, looking at the cages, looking at the hundreds of men in there, I saw myself in those cages. I saw people who were my age, people who looked exactly like me. And I thought when we were walking out of those doors of the internment camp, I thought, I'm one of the only people that looks like me, and that's my age that's gonna actually walk out of this place without being deported or without being a staff member that's not allowed to really talk about what's going on in there. That's why it's so important for members of Congress to conduct oversight on these facilities. And we were some of the first people to go in there with a notebook, with a pen. I had pictures. I have a. I have a full notebook full of questions that I was looking to get answered, pictures of my constituents, information about their stories. And I'm going to be back. You know, we originally planned this as an unannounced tour. Somehow they found out about it, and they ended up inviting us on the same day in time. We were going to show up anyway. But we got to be clear. I don't need Ron DeSantis permission, I don't need anybody's permission to pull up to an immigration detention center and do my job, which is to go in and conduct oversight and tell the public about what's going on.
- [42:33]
Tim Weiner
In terms of this facility. You use the term internment camp, and I saw your colleague, Debbie Wasserman Schultz used that same phrase. Obviously, that's very evocative language with history in this country that is difficult for a lot of people. Talk about why you think that term is appropriate. I've been struggling with that myself, just as a broadcaster, in terms of how to talk about these things. I mean, in technical terms, if you've got a facility that's holding people indefinitely and there's no legal process to get in there, and there's no legal process to get out, that is traditionally called a concentration camp or an internment camp. And I wonder about your specificity in using that language.
- [43:15]
Maxwell Frost
Well, I sure as hell I'm not going to use what they're calling it. What they're calling it is to make light of the situation. What they're calling it is to make it a giggle or something you can sell or merch on. And so I encourage people don't call it what they're calling it. You know, and everyone's using different language, different names. You know, I'm going with internment or even prison detention center, because this. And this isn't even detention center. Right. The thing people have to realize, too, is when an immigrant is being detained, they're being detained because they're going through the legal process of deportation. They are not. Have not been convicted of a crime. They're not serving a sentence for a crime. And so they should not be treated in this way. And to be honest, even if you're treated as. Even if You've been convicted of a crime in this country. You shouldn't be treated this way as well. The conditions were horrible, and it's nothing less than what I called it. And I like to be very clear about things because we have too much BS in this world and in this politics where people want to sanitize stuff. We can't sanitize what's going on in the Everglades because it's going on around the country.
- [44:21]
Tim Weiner
Let me ask you about some breaking news that's just happened within the past hour. The Washington Post is reporting under this headline, ICE declares millions of undocumented immigrants ineligible for bond hearings. This is a new, revisited, quote, revisited legal position on detention and release authorities from the Trump administration. They're saying that anybody who came into the United States illegally is no longer eligible for a bond hearing. And that might sound like a technical bit of legalese, but what they're saying is that that means millions of people who crossed the border into this country, came to this country illegally, can be arrested now and have no right to get out. It literally could mean millions of people to be incarcerated indefinitely for the duration of any of their immigration proceedings, which can take months or years. Lawyers are responding to this by saying that this could mean the incarceration of millions of immigrants who came here over the past few decades, not people who have just arrived recently. Let me get. I know you may or may not have had a chance to absorb this since this news just broke, but I wanted to get your instant reaction to it.
- [45:31]
Maxwell Frost
No, no, no. I saw it. And it's, it's, it's a, it's a complete perversion of a law and long standing legal standard as it relates to detention. You know, for about a century in this country, if you are an immigrant, you're someone that's undocumented, and you're going through a process, maybe you're, you've been arrested or detained, you're able to bond out, you're able to go back out in the world, continue to work, continue with your family as you go through the legal process. And that's been the standard for a century. In 1996, Congress passed a law that would essentially introduce this concept of mandatory detention for certain people, saying, well, judges can't give some immigrants the ability to bond out if there are flight risk, if they've committed a crime, they have to remain detained. Now the Trump administration is saying, well, that 1996 law applies to everyone, and it doesn't. They're completely wrong. And actually, this has already been settled in court in Washington at a detention center in Tacoma. So this will be litigated, but this points to something bigger. They want more people behind bars, they want to incarcerate more people and they want to ethnically cleanse this country of certain types of immigrants. Because here's the thing, they're not going for every person here that's undocumented. Cuz when I was in that internment camp in the Everglades, I didn't see any Europeans who overstayed their visa. I saw nothing but Latino men and Haitian men. And as we look at these operations going around the country, they are targeting specific types of people and it's the type of people that look like me.
- [47:04]
Tim Weiner
Congressman Maxwell Frost. Thank you, sir. We will be right back. Stay with us. All right, that's gonna do it for me tonight. Thank you so much for being here.
- [47:17]
Rachel Maddow
MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing.
- [47:20]
Jen Psaki
We've never experienced a moment like this in our country and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we gonna speak out or are we gonna be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents I've faced face the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless. We have our voices and I will continue using mine.
- [47:41]
Rachel Maddow
The Briefing with Jen Psaki, Tuesday through Friday at 9pM Eastern on MSNBC.