The Rachel Maddow Show | "It's absurd": Sen. Kelly bites back at Trump, Hegseth threats over 'illegal orders' video

Date: November 25, 2025
Host: Rachel Maddow, MS NOW
Featured Guest: Senator Mark Kelly (D-AZ), Ret. Navy Captain, former NASA Astronaut
Legal Analyst: Barbara McQuaid, former U.S. Attorney

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the escalating tensions between President Trump and Senator Mark Kelly, following Kelly's participation in a video reminding U.S. service members of their duty to refuse illegal orders—a stance that has prompted unprecedented threats from Trump and his administration. The episode also explores wider themes of democratic accountability, military ethics, the rule of law, and government transparency amid mounting scandals and legal controversies in the Trump administration.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Senator Mark Kelly Threatened With Court Martial By Trump Administration

• Context:
  • President Trump is actively threatening to recall Senator Mark Kelly (Navy Captain, retired and senator) to active duty in order to court martial him for participating in a video reminding service members of their obligation under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ): not to obey illegal orders. (00:58, ~26:10)
  • Trump called this act "seditious behavior punishable by death," demanding prosecution or execution for the lawmakers involved. (26:29)
  • The Pentagon has responded by saying it's investigating Kelly for “serious allegations of misconduct," and could recall him to active duty. (27:07)
• Sen. Kelly’s Response (Interview):
  • "Well, Rachel, I said something that was pretty simple and non controversial and that was that members of the military should follow the law. And in response to that, Donald Trump said, I should be executed. I should be hanged. I should be prosecuted...But, Rachel, I'm not going to be silenced. I'm not going to be intimidated." (27:48)

2. Illegal Orders & The Five Eyes Fracture

• Background:
  • The "Five Eyes" intelligence alliance (U.S., UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) is strained. The UK has suspended intelligence-sharing with the US on suspected drug boats due to concerns over legality of US military strikes. (24:51)
  • Inside the U.S. military, legal concerns have been forcibly set aside by the Trump administration, further justifying Kelly and colleagues’ public warnings to troops.
  • Kelly and other former military officers in Congress release a video explaining the duty to refuse illegal orders. Trump’s response is immediate and extreme.
  • Maddow: "You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders. This video seems to have touched a nerve..." (26:29)
  • Kelly: "We basically repeated the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and they're saying that's in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It's absurd." (32:32)

3. Trump’s Flailing, Scandal-Plagued Administration

• Foreign Affairs & Authoritarianism:
  • Maddow details ongoing legal drama surrounding Brazil's ex-leader Jair Bolsonaro, drawing parallels to Trump. Bolsonaro, under house arrest, attempts to flee, and apparently, Trump is in direct communication with him during the botched escape. Trump even implies a future meeting with Bolsonaro, despite the latter being legally confined. (05:00–08:15)
  • Maddow: "I mean, in any other presidency, this is like the end, right? This is a show stopping scandal. A U.S. President who appears to be in on a plan to jailbreak a fugitive former dictator and bring him to America." (11:23)
• Government Dysfunction & Protest:
  • The "Doge" agency, placed under donor Elon Musk and responsible for reckless policy, collapses in disgrace, leading to nationwide protests at Tesla dealerships and Musk's ousting. (13:30)
  • Reports of creative, strategic protests against ICE raids—highlighting civil resistance, especially from youth and immigrant communities. (16:37)
• Judicial System Breakdown:
  • Multiple Trump administration court cases against political foes (James Comey, Tish James) get tossed for prosecutorial misconduct and illegal appointments. (14:23)
  • DOJ is called out for repeatedly lying to federal judges. (36:04, 42:51–44:24)

4. Senator Mark Kelly’s Perspective & Personal Experience

• Why Speak Up Now:
  • Kelly: "You don't want to wait for your kid to get hit by a car before you tell them to look both ways. It's pretty simple." (28:43)
  • Emphasizes historical precedence for concern—past Trump comments about using the military for unlawful domestic action against protestors. (28:43–30:54)
• Practical Guidance to Service Members:
  • "You're also required not to follow illegal [orders]...it's important for people to know that they need to be able to stand up and speak out. I think there's nothing more patriotic than standing up for the Constitution." (30:54)
• Why Kelly Was Targeted:
  • "Could be him, could be Pete Hegseth. I don't know...This is not about the law. This is about the media cycle, and it's about intimidation. And...almost comical. Like, how does reciting the UCMJ...violate the UCMJ? It's absurd." (32:02–32:51)
• Personal Costs and Courage:
  • Kelly references his dangerous service, his wife Gabby Giffords surviving an assassination, and their experience with political violence—and the importance of not being intimidated by presidential abuse of power.
  • "I've been stressed by things more important than Donald Trump..." (33:23)
  • "When he is out of line, that's the responsibility of every U.S. senator and every member of Congress. He's not going to silence us." (33:23)

5. Legal & Institutional Accountability

• Interview with Barbara McQuaid:
  • Lying to a federal judge is a career-ending and disciplinary matter. The repeated dishonesty of Trump admin prosecutors is "absolutely new territory." (43:29)
  • Disbarment and contempt proceedings are possible judicial remedies, but government lawyers continue to cross ethical lines without consequence. (44:24–45:43)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Senator Mark Kelly (on threats from Trump):

  • "I'm not going to be silenced. I'm not going to be intimidated." (27:48)
  • "We basically repeated the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and they're saying that's in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It's absurd." (32:32)
  • "I've had a missile blow up next to my airplane...flown a rocket ship into space four times, built by the lowest bidder. And my wife, Gabby Giffords...shot in the head...We know what political violence is, and we know what causes it." (33:23)
  • "I've been stressed by things more important than Donald Trump trying to intimidate me into shutting my mouth and not doing my job." (33:55)

• Rachel Maddow (on the gravity of the scandal):

  • "In any other presidency, this is like the end, right? This is a show stopping scandal. A U.S. President who appears to be in on a plan to jailbreak a fugitive former dictator and bring him to America." (11:23)
  • "You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders." (26:29)

• Barbara McQuaid:

  • "To lie to a judge is not seeing that justice is done. So this really flies in the face of everything that the Justice Department is about..." (43:29)
  • "They can be disbarred...removed from practice..." (44:36)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:58–05:00] — Rachel Maddow previews Mark Kelly interview & sets up Bolsonaro/Trump context
• [05:00–11:23] — Scandal: Trump's implied involvement in Bolsonaro's attempted escape
• [14:23–17:33] — Civil and creative protest against Trump-era ICE raids
• [26:10–27:34] — The "illegal orders" video and Trump's reaction
• [27:34–34:44] — FULL Senator Mark Kelly Interview
  • [27:34–27:48] Opening response to threats
  • [28:43–30:54] Reasoning behind the video
  • [32:02–32:51] Why he feels targeted; the "absurdity" of the charges
  • [33:23–34:35] Personal and family toll, commitment to serve and resist intimidation
• [42:51–45:58] — Legal analysis with Barbara McQuaid: Government lying in court, possible remedies

Episode Tone & Language

• Maddow’s tone is urgent, incredulous, and unflinching, mixing deep dives into legal principle with sharp political commentary.
• Kelly is calm but resolute, directly addressing military personnel and emphasizing duty, while also revealing the real, lived consequences of political violence and intimidation.
• McQuaid is measured and technical, laying out the norm-shattering legal crisis of the administration’s disregard for truth in federal courts.

Summary Takeaways

• Alarming escalation: Trump’s administration threatens a sitting senator and war hero with execution and court martial for publicly affirming the law—a move described by both Maddow and Kelly as unprecedented and comical, but dangerous.
• Undermining of alliances & institutions: Longstanding military, legal, and intelligence norms are weakening under Trump, straining U.S. alliances (Five Eyes) and exposing service members to legal peril.
• Resistance & accountability: Kelly and likeminded lawmakers affirm their refusal to back down, leaning on military values and the constitutional oath, while calling for accountability.
• Rule of law in crisis: Ethical boundaries and the basic practice of truth-telling in government legal work are not just being eroded, but openly disregarded—posing profound questions for judicial remedy and the future of American democracy.