'It's absurd': Sen. Kelly bites back at Trump, Hegseth threats over 'illegal orders' video

Summary

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The Rachel Maddow Show | "It's absurd": Sen. Kelly bites back at Trump, Hegseth threats over 'illegal orders' video

Date: November 25, 2025
Host: Rachel Maddow, MS NOW
Featured Guest: Senator Mark Kelly (D-AZ), Ret. Navy Captain, former NASA Astronaut
Legal Analyst: Barbara McQuaid, former U.S. Attorney

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the escalating tensions between President Trump and Senator Mark Kelly, following Kelly's participation in a video reminding U.S. service members of their duty to refuse illegal orders—a stance that has prompted unprecedented threats from Trump and his administration. The episode also explores wider themes of democratic accountability, military ethics, the rule of law, and government transparency amid mounting scandals and legal controversies in the Trump administration.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Senator Mark Kelly Threatened With Court Martial By Trump Administration

• Context:
  • President Trump is actively threatening to recall Senator Mark Kelly (Navy Captain, retired and senator) to active duty in order to court martial him for participating in a video reminding service members of their obligation under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ): not to obey illegal orders. (00:58, ~26:10)
  • Trump called this act "seditious behavior punishable by death," demanding prosecution or execution for the lawmakers involved. (26:29)
  • The Pentagon has responded by saying it's investigating Kelly for “serious allegations of misconduct," and could recall him to active duty. (27:07)
• Sen. Kelly’s Response (Interview):
  • "Well, Rachel, I said something that was pretty simple and non controversial and that was that members of the military should follow the law. And in response to that, Donald Trump said, I should be executed. I should be hanged. I should be prosecuted...But, Rachel, I'm not going to be silenced. I'm not going to be intimidated." (27:48)

2. Illegal Orders & The Five Eyes Fracture

• Background:
  • The "Five Eyes" intelligence alliance (U.S., UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) is strained. The UK has suspended intelligence-sharing with the US on suspected drug boats due to concerns over legality of US military strikes. (24:51)
  • Inside the U.S. military, legal concerns have been forcibly set aside by the Trump administration, further justifying Kelly and colleagues’ public warnings to troops.
  • Kelly and other former military officers in Congress release a video explaining the duty to refuse illegal orders. Trump’s response is immediate and extreme.
  • Maddow: "You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders. This video seems to have touched a nerve..." (26:29)
  • Kelly: "We basically repeated the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and they're saying that's in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It's absurd." (32:32)

3. Trump’s Flailing, Scandal-Plagued Administration

• Foreign Affairs & Authoritarianism:
  • Maddow details ongoing legal drama surrounding Brazil's ex-leader Jair Bolsonaro, drawing parallels to Trump. Bolsonaro, under house arrest, attempts to flee, and apparently, Trump is in direct communication with him during the botched escape. Trump even implies a future meeting with Bolsonaro, despite the latter being legally confined. (05:00–08:15)
  • Maddow: "I mean, in any other presidency, this is like the end, right? This is a show stopping scandal. A U.S. President who appears to be in on a plan to jailbreak a fugitive former dictator and bring him to America." (11:23)
• Government Dysfunction & Protest:
  • The "Doge" agency, placed under donor Elon Musk and responsible for reckless policy, collapses in disgrace, leading to nationwide protests at Tesla dealerships and Musk's ousting. (13:30)
  • Reports of creative, strategic protests against ICE raids—highlighting civil resistance, especially from youth and immigrant communities. (16:37)
• Judicial System Breakdown:
  • Multiple Trump administration court cases against political foes (James Comey, Tish James) get tossed for prosecutorial misconduct and illegal appointments. (14:23)
  • DOJ is called out for repeatedly lying to federal judges. (36:04, 42:51–44:24)

4. Senator Mark Kelly’s Perspective & Personal Experience

• Why Speak Up Now:
  • Kelly: "You don't want to wait for your kid to get hit by a car before you tell them to look both ways. It's pretty simple." (28:43)
  • Emphasizes historical precedence for concern—past Trump comments about using the military for unlawful domestic action against protestors. (28:43–30:54)
• Practical Guidance to Service Members:
  • "You're also required not to follow illegal [orders]...it's important for people to know that they need to be able to stand up and speak out. I think there's nothing more patriotic than standing up for the Constitution." (30:54)
• Why Kelly Was Targeted:
  • "Could be him, could be Pete Hegseth. I don't know...This is not about the law. This is about the media cycle, and it's about intimidation. And...almost comical. Like, how does reciting the UCMJ...violate the UCMJ? It's absurd." (32:02–32:51)
• Personal Costs and Courage:
  • Kelly references his dangerous service, his wife Gabby Giffords surviving an assassination, and their experience with political violence—and the importance of not being intimidated by presidential abuse of power.
  • "I've been stressed by things more important than Donald Trump..." (33:23)
  • "When he is out of line, that's the responsibility of every U.S. senator and every member of Congress. He's not going to silence us." (33:23)

5. Legal & Institutional Accountability

• Interview with Barbara McQuaid:
  • Lying to a federal judge is a career-ending and disciplinary matter. The repeated dishonesty of Trump admin prosecutors is "absolutely new territory." (43:29)
  • Disbarment and contempt proceedings are possible judicial remedies, but government lawyers continue to cross ethical lines without consequence. (44:24–45:43)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Senator Mark Kelly (on threats from Trump):

  • "I'm not going to be silenced. I'm not going to be intimidated." (27:48)
  • "We basically repeated the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and they're saying that's in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It's absurd." (32:32)
  • "I've had a missile blow up next to my airplane...flown a rocket ship into space four times, built by the lowest bidder. And my wife, Gabby Giffords...shot in the head...We know what political violence is, and we know what causes it." (33:23)
  • "I've been stressed by things more important than Donald Trump trying to intimidate me into shutting my mouth and not doing my job." (33:55)

• Rachel Maddow (on the gravity of the scandal):

  • "In any other presidency, this is like the end, right? This is a show stopping scandal. A U.S. President who appears to be in on a plan to jailbreak a fugitive former dictator and bring him to America." (11:23)
  • "You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders." (26:29)

• Barbara McQuaid:

  • "To lie to a judge is not seeing that justice is done. So this really flies in the face of everything that the Justice Department is about..." (43:29)
  • "They can be disbarred...removed from practice..." (44:36)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:58–05:00] — Rachel Maddow previews Mark Kelly interview & sets up Bolsonaro/Trump context
• [05:00–11:23] — Scandal: Trump's implied involvement in Bolsonaro's attempted escape
• [14:23–17:33] — Civil and creative protest against Trump-era ICE raids
• [26:10–27:34] — The "illegal orders" video and Trump's reaction
• [27:34–34:44] — FULL Senator Mark Kelly Interview
  • [27:34–27:48] Opening response to threats
  • [28:43–30:54] Reasoning behind the video
  • [32:02–32:51] Why he feels targeted; the "absurdity" of the charges
  • [33:23–34:35] Personal and family toll, commitment to serve and resist intimidation
• [42:51–45:58] — Legal analysis with Barbara McQuaid: Government lying in court, possible remedies

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Episode Tone & Language

• Maddow’s tone is urgent, incredulous, and unflinching, mixing deep dives into legal principle with sharp political commentary.
• Kelly is calm but resolute, directly addressing military personnel and emphasizing duty, while also revealing the real, lived consequences of political violence and intimidation.
• McQuaid is measured and technical, laying out the norm-shattering legal crisis of the administration’s disregard for truth in federal courts.

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Summary Takeaways

• Alarming escalation: Trump’s administration threatens a sitting senator and war hero with execution and court martial for publicly affirming the law—a move described by both Maddow and Kelly as unprecedented and comical, but dangerous.
• Undermining of alliances & institutions: Longstanding military, legal, and intelligence norms are weakening under Trump, straining U.S. alliances (Five Eyes) and exposing service members to legal peril.
• Resistance & accountability: Kelly and likeminded lawmakers affirm their refusal to back down, leaning on military values and the constitutional oath, while calling for accountability.
• Rule of law in crisis: Ethical boundaries and the basic practice of truth-telling in government legal work are not just being eroded, but openly disregarded—posing profound questions for judicial remedy and the future of American democracy.

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Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Rachel Maddow]

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[Senator Mark Kelly]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Deals while they last. Got two things to tell you right off the bat. First, US Senator Mark Kelly is here live with us tonight. He of course is a former astronaut, a combat decorated Navy pilot. The Trump administration is now threatening him, literally threatening to recall him to active duty in the Navy specifically so they can court martial him. They want to do this because Commander Kelly committed the grave sin of reminding US Service members that they must not obey illegal orders. It is literally required of US Service members in the Uniform Code of Military justice that they must not obey illegal orders. But Trump is now threatening Mark Kelly with arrest and prosecution for saying that true thing. So Senator Mark Kelly is going to be joining us live here tonight. He will, I think, give us his response to those threats from the President. That'll be in just a moment. The other thing I have to tell you tonight is that a little bit business. I have a new podcast coming out. It's called Burn Order. It is six episodes only. First two episodes come out next week on Monday or if you subscribe to Ms. Now Premium, you get those first two episodes early. You can get the first two episodes on Friday. And that's nice if you wanna listen to them during your Thanksgiving travels this weekend. But again, the new podcast is called Burn Order. It is free to listen. It comes out next week. The trailer is out now. If you wanna hear the trailer, just use your phone to scan that blob thing on your screen and it'll bring you right to the trailer and you can decide if you want to listen. I should also tell you, if you are in the Los Angeles area, we're going to be doing a live event with, with me and some of the people involved in the podcast. That event is going to be Sunday, December 14th at the Orpheum Theater in Los Angeles. Tickets are on sale for that as of right now. Again, Sunday, December 14th in Los Angeles. I'll see you there. And if it's, if you're my Aunt Cheryl watching this right now from Pasadena, Aunt Cheryl, you do not have to buy a ticket. I saved a seat for you already, so that's okay. All right. So this is the US Embassy in Brazil in the, in the capital city of Brazil. This U.S. embassy is, I learned this weekend, about a 15 minute drive from Jair Bolsonaro's house. Who's Jair Bolsonaro? You remember, he's the very trumpy former authoritarian leader of Brazil. And since August of this year, Jair Bolsonaro has been home every day. Every single day he has been at that house in Brasilia because he's been under house arrest, wearing an ankle bracelet in the whole nine yards. But this weekend, Friday night around 7pm, for some reason, Jair Bolsonaro's son told people to come to the house right away for a previously unannounced protest at the Bolsonaro home. At the house where his dad is inside on house wearing an ankle monitor, Jair Bolsonaro's son put out this video saying, I invite you to fight with us. Like come to our house tonight. What do you mean fight with us? Fight. Fight with us at our house. Fight for what? Fight against whom? Well, later that same night, shortly after midnight Friday night, the police got an alert that Jair Bolsonaro's ankle bracelet had been tampered with. It had been breached somehow. Now, this is the same night that Bolsonaro's son had tried to get a crowd to show up and surround the house. Bolsonaro pretty plainly appears to be trying to avoid serving the 27 year prison sentence he was recently given. He was sentenced to 27 years in prison for arranging a January 6th style riot at the Capitol to try to stay in power after he lost his campaign for reelection. He, he's been trying to get away from Brazil so he doesn't have to serve that prison sentence. At least it seems that way. He previously tried to arrange to flee to Argentina to try to get asylum in Argentina from the Trumpy Argentinian President. He then went to the embassy of Hungary in Brazil and spent two nights in the embassy, apparently trying to escape from Brazil to Hungary, trying to get asylum there from that very Trumpy Prime Minister, Viktor Orban in Hungary. Earlier this year, one of Bolsonaro's sons reportedly lobbied Trump himself that the United States should help his dad with this big problem he's got with this prosecution and this 27 year prison sentence he is due to start serving. And who knows what Donald Trump and the Trump administration said to that plea for help. But as I mentioned, Jair Bolsonaro's house is only about a 15 minute drive from the US embassy, Brazil. And on Friday night, Bolsonaro admits now that he did this to his ankle monitor. He apparently took what he says was a soldering iron to his ankle bracelet, while at the same time his son had summoned a crowd to surround his house. The Brazilian police showed up within hours and arrested Bolsonaro. Again, he is no longer on house arrest, he's now in jail. And they released this video that you're seeing here showing the damage that he caused to his ankle monitor and Bolsonaro reportedly admitting that he was the one who tried to disable it. The Supreme Court justice who ordered Bolsonaro's arrest said Bolsonaro had to be arrested that night because he's so clearly a flight risk. Obviously, he's tried to flee to multiple different countries. He's gone to the embassies and approached the governments of multiple different countries to try to get him out of Brazil so he doesn't have to go to prison. And that Supreme Court justice went out of his way to point out just how close Bolsonaro lives to the U.S. embassy. And this, this kind of sounds crazy, right? I mean, was this really going to happen? He was going to cut off his ankle bracelet. And in the chaos of this fight, fight, fight demonstration that his son had called for at the last minute at his house, he was going to cut off the ankle bracelet and flee his home and race to the US Embassy and take refuge in the US Embassy and then somehow have like the US Government spirit him out of the country, right? Fly him to the US So he could escape having to go to prison and Trump would keep him safe in the United States instead. I mean, the US Government's gonna help him do that. It's crazy, right? Crazy, definitely. Way too cinematic and conspiratorial and crazy to believe until, oops, Trump kind of blurted out that maybe that's what was going on. Do you have any comment about Montonero's arrest? Former Brazilian President? So I spoke last night to the gentleman you just referred to and we're going to be meeting, I believe, in the very near future. Sir, Are you worried about the President being arrested today?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

What?

[Rachel Maddow]

Any comment about the former Brazilian president being arrested today? No, I don't know anything about it, sir. Are you willing to hurt us, Mr. President? Are you willing. Is that what happened? Yes, there's a fight. That's too bad. That's too bad. He was, he was arrested. That's Trump. President Trump on Saturday pretty clearly seeming to have no idea that Bolsonaro has been arrested overnight. He says, yeah, I spoke to him last night and we're going to be meeting, I believe, in the very near future. Were you planning on going to Brazil, Mr. President? Because this, this dude's on house arrest with an ankle monitor. He can't leave home. How are you going to be meeting with him in the very near future? I mean Bolsonaro, they arrested him like 6am Saturday morning. He was rearrested for the most far fetched thing in the world, right. Trying to remove his ankle monitor and apparently they believe try to flee the country. And Bolsonaro has come up with a story now that the only reason he took a soldering iron to his ankle monitor is because he said he was hallucinating. He said he was having a nervous breakdown because of a change in his medications recently and that caused him to have a start hallucinating on Friday night. And that's what happened. He was basically tripping and so that's what happened. And he can't be held accountable for his actions. But now here's the President of the United States on Saturday confirming that actually on Friday night Bolsonaro might have been tripping, but he was talking to President, President Trump at the time and they were making plans to be together. In Trump's words, in the very near future. He was under house arrest and about to start a 27 year prison sentence. How are you going to be together in the very near future? I mean, when Trump said that, he must have meant that Bolsonaro was coming to America, right? He definitely could not have done that without breaking off his ankle monitor and fleeing the country and going on the lamb and at apparently the President of the United States was like in on the plan. So I spoke last night to the gentleman you just referred to and we're going to be meeting, I believe, in the very near future. Is that what you thought was going to happen? I mean, in any other presidency, this is like the end, right? This is a show stop stopping scandal. A US President who appears to be in on a plan to jailbreak a fugitive former dictator and bring him to America. Right? I mean, who knows, Maybe this is all just a big misunderstanding. Maybe it was a different Jair Bolsonaro he was speaking to, I don't know. But with any other president, everything would screech to a halt until this made sense. Right here. It's just one story today, one more bad news story as this president, as our president, continues wading through what really is just the worst and weakest period of his own presidency since his own January 6th failed attempted violent coup. I mean, today really is the day that he who avoided military service by claiming he had bone spurs, he today nevertheless picked a fight over patriotism and honorable military service with a decorated combat pilot and astronaut who a lot of people think is presidential timber for 2028 again. Arizona Senator Navy Captain Mark Kelly is going to be here to respond to that live here in just a moment. Today's the day that Donald Trump's Justice Department was laughed out of court in the two highest profile marquee cases that Trump demanded had to be brought against two of his political opponents, former FBI Director J. James Comey and New York Attorney General Tish James. Both of those prosecutions were thrown out of court today. They were both thrown out because the cases were so weak, so preposterous, that the Trump administration had to fire a Trump appointed US Attorney who reportedly refused to bring that kind of garbage into court. They fired him because he wouldn't do it and they replaced him with somebody who would bring that kind of garbage into court. And today, a judge assigned to both of those cases ruled that her appointment was illegal and therefore the cases were not properly brought and they have now both been thrown out. We will have more on that coming up in just a moment. Tonight with former U.S. attorney Barb McQuaid. Today was also the day that Trump was reportedly going to announce his new health care plan. Democrats held the line for more than 40 days on the longest government shutdown in history to try to force Trump and the Republicans to fix some of the massive price hikes their policies are about to cause in American's health insurance premiums. Today was the day Trump was supposed to announce the Republican plan, the Trump plan for dealing with that health care problem. It was going to be a big announcement, including the President himself and Dr. Mehmet Oz at the White House. I guess they're going to announce their big fix for that problem that the Republicans have caused with people's health insurance. But for some reason, that just didn't happen today. That was postponed. Didn't happen. Don't know why. Today's also the day that we learned that Doge is dead. The President gave his top campaign donor his own brand new government agency, which somehow had control over the budgets and personnel at all the other agencies. Sure, because that's how democracy works, right? Elon Musk's Doge effort was a calamity and a disaster from the very start. They fired the people, you know, working on Ebola outbreaks and the people in charge of maintaining the security of our nuclear warheads. They fired people like that, apparently without any idea that those were the jobs that they were getting rid of. They tried to sell 47 Social Security field offices. Sure, why not? They also tried to sell the headquarters of the Justice Department. They tried to sell several federal courthouses, which is a whole other branch of government. My dudes, Elon Musk danced around with a chainsaw and they destroyed USAID and the miraculous and universally admired George W. Bush era PEPFAR program, which saved literally millions of lives. And they did it all for what? To cut spending? Right. U.S. government spending this year under Donald Trump is up, is higher than US Government spending was last year. And now Reuters, per Reuters, Reuters is reporting that the White House is admitting that Doge is dead. Elon Musk's Doge is dead. Thousands and thousands of Americans took part in hundreds and hundreds of protests at Tesla dealerships all over the country this year, targeting Tesla CEO Elon Musk over the Doge disaster he was presiding over in Washington. Those protests succeeded in forcing Elon Musk out of the Trump administration, out of the federal government. And now, as of today, the whole Doge thing is over and done with as well. And you know, Americans protests against the Trump administration and against people and entities who are doing the Trump administration's dirty work. Those protests are getting more creative and more savvy all the time. Look at this, for example. Reporting this weekend from the local CBS station in Los Angeles with a reporter on the scene here, Lori Perez. We've seen countless immigration rates at Southern California Home Depots, and immigrant groups are accusing the company of being complicit in the operation. CBSLA's Lori Perez live outside the Monrovia Home Depot with an ICE protest and a message that we haven't seen before. Laurie.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

That's right.

[Rachel Maddow]

You know, we have seen a lot.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Of different protests over the last few Months centered on the ICE raids, but none quite like the one that happened this weekend at this Monrovia Home Depot. One by one, hundreds picked up a 17 cent ice scraper at the Monrovia Home Depot Saturday, bought it, and then.

[Rachel Maddow]

Got back in long lines to return it, clogging customer service shopping as a.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Political act to tell Home Depot to keep ICE agents out of their stores.

[Rachel Maddow]

So you buy an ice scraper. Kind of looks more like a putty knife, but maybe in California, that's what counts as an ice scraper. Little ice scraper has 17 cents. Get in line to do it, go through the checkout process to buy your 17 cent ice scraper and then go get back in another line to return the same thing that you just bought.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

What are you buying?

[Rachel Maddow]

An ICE creeper?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

What are you guys buying?

[Rachel Maddow]

We are buying ICE creepers. Right? That Home Depot in Monrovia, California, in Los Angeles, eventually shut itself down during that protest. Those protesters are demanding that Home Depot stop allowing its stores and its parking lots to be used for ICE raids. Demanding that Home Depot as a company start objecting to the federal government using its facilities, using its private property, using its stores and its parking lots for its anti immigrant attacks. We're seeing a lot of protests against ICE and Trump's immigration agents right now. 31 arrests of young people sitting down in civil disobedience in South Florida. This was outside the Chrome detention facility, the ICE prison there's in Miami. 31 arrests. Protesters from the Sunrise Movement facing trespassing charges for having taken part in that peaceful civil disobedience protests this weekend in Newark, New Jersey, at the ICE facility there, which is called Delaney Hall. A lot of people turned out this weekend in Newark. Protests in Minneapolis this weekend, members of the Somali community in Minneapolis rallying at the Carmel Mall along with non Somali supporters from the Twin Cities. People protesting against Trump's threat to take away immigration protections from Somali people who have been in this country legally for years. Anti ICE protests in Memphis, Tennessee this weekend. Anti ICE protests on the Beaufort highway in Atlanta this weekend. Today in Raleigh, North Carolina, kids at Southeast Raleigh Magnet High School walked out in protest of ICE rates in North Carolina over this past week. This follows earlier student walkouts in Raleigh from Rollsville High and Heritage High as well. Kids are all right in North Carolina after a high school student at McMinnville High in McMinnville, Oregon was taken by Trump's immigration agents on Friday. People turned out in huge numbers in that Oregon community this weekend to protest against ICE having taken that kid. Anti ICE protests in Beaverton, Oregon as well. People in Oregon really mad right now, in part because ICE keeps arresting, you know, high school students and multiple US Citizens in that state. In Charlotte, North Carolina, a lawsuit against Trump's immigration agents there has resulted in the release of this video in which ICE agents are exclaiming to each other, this is great. This is fun. While they try to smash their car into a vehicle driven by a US citizen. The ICE agents in this vehicle allegedly had a 12 pack of beer with them in the vehicle, a 12 pack of ModelOS with them in that car while they were enjoying themselves and talking about smashing into that guy while they were on the job. This message comes from the International Rescue Committee. Co founded with help from Albert Einstein. The IRC has been providing humanitarian aid for more than 90 years. The IRC helps refugees whose lives are disrupted by conflict and disaster, supporting recovery efforts in places like Gaza and Ukraine and responding within 72 hours of crisis. Donate today by visiting rescue.org rebuild Bob Evans Creamy Mac and cheese and buttery mashed potatoes are made for the moments you can't plan, like last minute school costumes, glitter explosions, or when little Liam brings three friends for dinner. No plan, no problem. Say hello to plan B O B from Bob Evans. Because when you bring out the Bob.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

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Always have something delicious on the table, no matter what the day brings. When you need comfort, bring out the bob. Available now in your refrigerated section at 1-800-Flowers.com. we know that connections are at the heart of being human. Whether celebrating life's joys or comforting during tough times, 1-800-Flowers helps you express what words can't. For nearly 50 years, millions have trusted 1-800-Flowers to deliver thoughtful gifts that help create lasting bonds. Because it's more than just a gift. It's your way of showing you care. Visit 1-800-flowers.com sxm and connect today. That's 1-800-flowers. Com sxm In Washington, we told you there was going to be a big protest this weekend. On Saturday, the remove the regime protest at the Lincoln Memorial in D.C. look at this. People calling for the impeachment and conviction and removal of Trump from office. The Remove the regime protest was big this weekend in Washington, D.C. these Marie Antoinettes in Washington thereafter were, I think, part of the Fall of freedom artists protests all over the country this weekend as well. But you got to admit, they are magnificent in their own right. Honestly, the presidency of Donald Trump is having a moment. It's having a bad moment at which this presidency and this president look weak and also fairly desperate. One of the Democratic critics of the president who is bearing the brunt of that palpable desperation is US Senator Mark Kelly, and he joins us live here next. Stay with us. The United States is part of something called the Five Eyes. It's five countries, the United States, the uk, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. The Five Eyes countries share intelligence in a relatively seamless way. This is an arrangement that originated in World War II. It continues today. And it's really, really important. Members of the Five Eyes like to describe it as the world's oldest and most significant intelligence alliance. Literally decades of these five countries, these five like minded nations freely sharing intelligence with each other about everything from Soviet spies to terrorism plots to drug trafficking and everything in between. That said, it is not at all clear that the Five Eyes alliance is going to survive the Trump administration. The United Kingdom is no longer sharing intelligence with the US about suspected drug trafficking vessels in the Caribbean because it does not want to be complicit in US Military strikes and believes the attacks are illegal. CNN broke the News of the UK's intelligence sharing suspension on Veterans Day this month. Reporting, quote, for years, the uk, which controls a number of territories in the Caribbean, where it's where it bases intelligence assets, have helped the US locate vessels suspected of carrying drugs so that the US Coast Guard could interdict them. The UK's decision marks a significant break from its closest ally and intelligence sharing partner and underscores the growing skepticism over the legality of the US Military's campaign around Latin America. The skepticism is not just coming from our allies, though. It is also coming from inside the US Military. The senior military lawyer at Southern Command, which is the combatant command that oversees all the attacks on, you know, fishing boats that Trump keeps doing in that region. That senior JAG officer reportedly told his superiors that these strikes on these boats were illegal, but he was reportedly overruled and then pushed aside from the decision making process inside that combatant command. NBC News reporting that that jag, that military lawyer at Southern Command, quote, specifically expressed concern that strikes against people on boats in the Caribbean Sea and the Eastern Pacific could amount to extrajudicial killings and therefore legally exposed service members involved in the operation. And if our longstanding allies are pulling out of intelligence sharing with us because they think Trump's orders on these boat strikes are illegal, and if US military lawyers, senior US military lawyers with expertise in the field and in the region, if they are being pushed out of their jobs for saying that Trump's orders against these boats are illegal. Well, that might go some distance toward explaining why six members of Congress, all of them former military or intelligence officers, decided to release this video about the possibility that Trump might be giving military orders that are illegal.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

We want to speak directly to members of the military and the intelligence community who take risks each day to keep Americans safe. Like us. You all swore an oath to protect.

[Barbara McQuaid]

And defend this Constitution.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from right here at home. Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.

[Rachel Maddow]

You can refuse illegal orders. You must refuse illegal orders. This video seems to have touched a nerve with President Donald Trump, who said in response that these lawmakers had committed quote, seditious behavior punishable by death. He's calling for sitting members of Congress to be executed for saying that US Service members must refuse illegal orders, which in fact is a true thing about US Military. US Service members under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Today, the Pentagon said it is investigating US Senator Mark Kelly, a decorated retired Navy captain, for his part in this video. Pentagon saying they are reviewing, quote, serious allegations of misconduct against Senator Kelly and that he could be recalled to active duty for court martial proceedings. Joining us now for his first TV interview since that Pentagon threat is Senator Mark Kelly, Democrat of Arizona, retired Navy captain, and of course, NASA astronaut. Senator Kelly, it's an honor to have you here tonight. Thank you.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Thank you for having me on.

[Rachel Maddow]

Rachel, let me first just get your response to this threat from the Defense Department saying that they are investigating you. They may potentially recall you to active duty to face a court martial.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, Rachel, I said something that was pretty simple and non controversial and that was that members of the military should follow the law. And in response to that, Donald Trump said, I should be executed. I should be hanged. I should be prosecuted. He even went on and said something about go get them, I guess, sending a mob to round me and the other folks up. So this is, I think it says a lot more about him than it says about me. He doesn't want accountability. But, Rachel, I'm not going to be silenced. I'm not going to be intimidated.

[Rachel Maddow]

When you and your colleagues made that video, were there specific potentially illegal orders that you were thinking about that were the sort of precipitating cause for you guys to get together and do that?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Here's the thing, Rachel, you don't want to wait for your kid to get hit by a car before you tell them to look both ways. It's pretty simple. And if you go back to 2016, Donald Trump on a debate stage talking about, you know, some action that he was going to take. He was reminded by the moderator that that would be illegal, that the military wouldn't be able to follow those orders. And his response, Donald Trump's response was, the military would not refuse my orders. And then as president, he talked about shooting people, citizens of this country, in the legs, protesters. Now, thankfully, Mark Esper, Mark Milley explained to him that that would not be a good idea. Now he's talking about the Insurrection act, sending troops to more cities, using US Cities as training grounds, and US Citizens for training of the United States military. So, Rachel, we wanted to do something pretty simple here. We wanted to just remind folks that they need to comply with the law and be reminded and also explain to members of the military that we have their backs, that we know what's going on as part of our job, accountability over the federal government. And this is the response we get. He told the world that we should be hanged.

[Rachel Maddow]

I wanted to ask you about that pledge that we have your backs. It's sort of the apex of that piece, that video that you made with, with your colleagues. What does that mean in practical terms? If I'm an enlisted service member somewhere, maybe I'm serving in Southern Command, maybe I'm asked to do something that I believe is illegal or that I have received advice might be illegal. If those service members are thinking about you right now as being on their side, as having their back, what does that mean in practical terms about what that service member can do when faced with a potentially illegal order from the commander in chief and from the chain of command?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, Rachel, I spent 25 years in the United States Navy. I flew 39 combat missions over Iraq and Kuwait. Let me start by saying I never questioned any order. And you're required to follow all legal orders. You're also required not to follow illegal ones. And I think most people can figure out, you know, it just takes some common sense in what would be an illegal order. But I think it's important for people to know that they need to be able to stand up and speak out. And I wanted them to know that members of Congress understand that this president doesn't seem to care about the Constitution, the rule of law. And I have to say, I don't think there's anything more patriotic than standing up for the Constitution. And right here, right now, this week, the president clearly is not doing that.

[Rachel Maddow]

Of the six Democratic lawmakers who made these statements which have so upset the President, he's coming after you. At least he's coming after you first. Do you have any opinion as to why he may have singled you out in this way?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

I don't know. We would have to ask him that question. Could be him, could be Pete Hegseth. I don't know. You know, and I would have been really shocked if any other president, you know, did this. But when I saw that tweet today, it kind of sort of made sense. I mean, these two guys, they inform me of this in a. In a tweet, because this is not about the law. This is about the media cycle, and it's about intimidation. And it's almost. The whole thing's almost comical. Like, how does reciting the ucmj, how is that? Which is the Uniform Code of Military Justice. We basically repeated the Uniform Code of Military justice, and they're saying that's in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It's absurd.

[Rachel Maddow]

I hear you when you say that it is absurd and that it is almost comical, but also that it is intended to be intimidating. I do just have to ask you, at a human level, Senator, you and your family have dealt with more than your fair share of sacrifice for this country and trial and tribulation. I just have to ask, even though I hear you when you say you're not intimidated, this must be a source of stress for you and your family. I just have to ask the kind of impact that it's having on you and your loved ones.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Rachel, I've had a missile blow up next to my airplane. I've been shot down, nearly shot down multiple times. I've flown a rocket ship into space four times, built by the lowest bidder. And my wife, Gabby Giffords, meeting with her constituents, shot in the head. Six people killed around her. A horrific thing. She spent six months in the hospital. We know what political violence is, and we know what causes it, too. You know, the statements that Donald Trump made is insightful, incites others. He's got millions of supporters. People listen to what he says, more so than anybody else in the country, and he should be careful with his words. But I'm not gonna be silenced here. Is it stressful? I've been stressed by things more important than Donald Trump trying to intimidate me into shutting my mouth and not doing my job. He didn't like what I said. I'm gonna show up for work every day, support the Constitution, do my job, hold this administration accountable, hold this president accountable. When he is out of line, that's the responsibility of every U.S. senator and every member of Congress. He's not going to silence us.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. Sir, thank you so much for your time and for being here tonight to give us that response. I really appreciate it, sir.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Thank you, Rachel.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Remember the Kilmar Abrego Garcia thing? This is that disaster where the Trump administration had to return this guy to the United States after they admitted they wrongfully and illegally they accidentally sent him to a weird black hole terrorism prison in El Salvador. Remember that little over five months since they had to bring Kilmar Abrego Garcia back to this country in that debacle? But ever since they've had him back in this country, they've been fighting in court to try to deport him somewhere else again. First they proposed Uganda for some reason. Then they proposed Eswatini, which is nearly 2,000 miles south of Uganda. Then they proposed Ghana, which is 5,000 miles to the north. Their latest gambit is Liberia, 600 miles to the west. Why do they want to send him to any of these places in Africa? He has no connection to Africa at all. Nobody knows. Lawyers for Mr. Abrego Garcia said if he is going to be deported, he would accept being deported to Costa Rica. They wouldn't fight if that's what they wanted to send him, the Trump administration has rejected that idea and has told the courts that actually that's not possible because Costa Rica won't take him. DOJ lawyers wrote to the judge in Mr. Abrego Garcia's case, quote, it is the assessment of the Department of State that the government of Costa Rica would not accept petitioner. So the Trump administration is, is telling the courts in court filings, no, Costa Rica will not agree to accept him. So we have to send him to Africa. Ready for the headline. There's always a headline. Headline. Costa Rica says it would accept Kilmar Abrego Garcia, comma, contradicting us. The Costa Rican Ambassador to the United States telling the Washington Post that he has no idea why the Justice Department is saying the Costa Rica won't take him. They absolutely will take him. That position we have expressed in the past remains valid and unchanged to this day. Costa Rica's offer to receive Mr. Abrego Garcia for humanitarian reasons stands. We've always said we would take him. We will happily take them. We never said we would not take him. If they say we will not take him, they are lying to you, they are lying to the courts, they're lying to the courts. This is becoming kind of a pattern for the Trump administration in court and it's not just in cases about deportations. Take the recent attack on the city of Chicago by Trump's federal agents. In the Chicago case, the leader of the Border Patrol's sort of blitz of that city told a federal court judge that he threw tear gas into a crowd because the protesters that that day had become violent and he'd been hit in the head with a rock. So he was only defending himself, basically fighting for his life was the idea. He was unable to stand by his own story in court, though, prompting the judge to write in her ruling last week that he had, quote, admitted he lied multiple times about the events that prompted him to throw tear gas at protesters today. As I mentioned earlier in the show, the Justice Department's cases against former FBI Director James Comey and New York Attorney General Tish James fell apart, both of them. In the case against Comey. Trump's hand picked prosecutor committed embarrassing error after embarrassing error during the grand jury process of getting the Comey indictment. The Justice Department, though, told the court not to worry about what had happened before the grand jury. Attorney General Pam Bondi, in fact, signed out a sworn statement to the court saying she had reviewed everything that had happened before the grand jury. She had signed off on all of it. It was all totally kosher. The judge in that case has now effectively accused Attorney General Pam Bondi of lying to the court, saying it was, quote, obvious that the attorney general could not review the grand jury testimony. And of course, the judge has now thrown the whole case out. I put all these three things together because at the beginning of this administration, you might remember a lot of national discussion about whether the Trump administration would defy court orders. We've definitely seen them defy some court orders, but instead of that being this sort of Rubicon, that was going to signal to the nation a whole new era of despotism and tyranny in this country. Instead, what we are experiencing a lot of a year in is kind of a different Rubicon. What we are experiencing is the administration blatantly and repeatedly lying to judges about what they are doing and how they are doing it. We were watching for them to be conducting court cases like normal and then disobeying the courts when the courts ordered them to do something. We are seeing a little of that, but we are seeing a lot of them just telling the court things that aren't true at every step of every kind of case. What is the remedy for that? What are the consequences for that that can be meted out by the courts? What is this continued disrespect and dishonesty to federal jud judges mean for this administration or for the next one? Hold that thought. That's next. It's from a federal court ruling in the use of force case concerning federal agents in Chicago. Presumably, these portions of the videos submitted to the court would be defendants government's best evidence to demonstrate that agents acted in line with the Constitution, federal laws, and the agency's own policies on use of force when engaging with protesters, the press and religious practitioners. But a review of the video shows the opposite. For example, defendants directed the court to two videos of agents outside the Broadview facility the evening of September 19th. In those videos, agents stand behind a fence, preparing to leave the facility's gates and disperse what defendants described as an unruly mob. The scene appears quiet as the gate opens, revealing a line of protesters standing in the street holding signs. Almost immediately and without warning, agents lob flashbang grenades, tear gas and pepper balls at the protesters, stating f. Yeah. As they do so and the crowd scatters. This video disproves defendants contentions that protests were the ones shooting off fireworks, refusing orders and acting violently so as to justify the agent's use of force. The government has repeatedly been called out for Lying to federal judges in multiple court cases, isn't that something that the courts are supposed to be able to fix? Joining us now is former U.S. attorney Barbara McClay. Barb, it's great to see you. Thank you for being here.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Thanks, Rachel. Great to be with you.

[Rachel Maddow]

In all of the jailhouse lawyering coverage I've ever done on television, looking at, as a non lawyer looking at important court cases, I have always been told that federal prosecutors and indeed any lawyer, it's an absolute red line that can never be crossed. To be caught out lying to a judge in a court case, it's a career ending, potential disaster, but yet we keep seeing it in multiple cases. For the Trump administration, I have to ask if this just seems unprecedented or if this is a really new territory for the government to be in.

[Barbara McQuaid]

This is absolutely new territory, Rachel, as you say, all lawyers have an ethical duty of candor to the tribunal. That means you have to tell the truth when you're in court. But prosecutors pride themselves on being squeaky clean when it comes to this. There's an old case called Berger versus the United States, and prosecutors will print out and frame in their offices the language from this case. It talks about how the prosecutor is not a representative of an ordinary party, but is instead a representative of a sovereign whose duty is not to win cases, but to see that justice is done. To lie to a judge is not seeing that justice is done. So this really flies in the face of everything that the Justice Department is about, the way prosecutors are trained, the ethos of the place, and the culture of the prosecutors who work there.

[Rachel Maddow]

Is it just a contravention of the ethos of what it's supposed to mean to be a prosecutor, or is it an actionable violation that the courts have the power to police?

[Barbara McQuaid]

Well, sure, there is some recourse here. So first, to the extent people are lying witnesses, as we've heard accusations that we've had the CBP officer caught contradicting himself, to the extent there's a lie that could constitute perjury. Now, of course, the prosecutor for a perjury case would be dojo. And so it may be that they decline to prosecute a case of perjury against a witness. There is, However, a Rule 42 of Criminal Procedure that allows a judge to appoint a special counsel in a case of contempt of a court order. To the extent that disobeying a court order to tell the truth in the court is seen as contempt, that's a potential avenue. And when it comes to the lawyers, they can be disbarred. They can be removed from practice in federal court. They can also be referred to to the state licensing authorities where they hold their bar licenses, grievances. Sometimes judges make those references. And so we could see lawyers suspended, fined, or even disbarred for making false statements in court.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. And there's nothing about government employment that prohibits any of those potential sanctions against against a lawyer. Former U.S. attorney Barbara McQuaid. Barb, it is great to see you this holiday week. Thanks very much for making time for us tonight.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Thank you, Rachel.

[Rachel Maddow]

All right, we'll be right back. Stay with us. If you find yourself needing a little peace and quiet this Thanksgiving week, consider popping in your headphones and checking out my brand new podcast. It's called Burn Order. It is six episodes total. First two episodes are coming out on Friday, the day after Thanksgiving, if you have an Ms. Now premium audio subscription. If you don't have that premium audio subscription, those first two episodes come out for everybody on Monday. You can use the QR code on your screen right now to get the details or to listen to the trailer, or you can just go straight to Ms. Now Burn Order. All right, that does it for me tonight. Tyler redick here from 2311 Racing. You think racing's tough? Try getting your friends to agree on dinner plans. I'm in. Wait, maybe what time again?

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