Maddow: Disgrace of Trump nepotism, abuse of pardons far surpasses Biden's pardon of his son

Summary

Summary of "Maddow: Disgrace of Trump Nepotism, Abuse of Pardons Far Surpasses Biden's Pardon of His Son"

The Rachel Maddow Show, hosted by Rachel Maddow on MSNBC, released its December 3, 2024 episode titled "Maddow: Disgrace of Trump Nepotism, Abuse of Pardons Far Surpasses Biden's Pardon of His Son." In this episode, Maddow delves into the controversial use of presidential pardons, comparing actions taken by both President Donald Trump and President Joe Biden. The episode also features in-depth interviews with renowned journalist Jane Mayer and California Attorney General Rob Bonta, providing critical insights into political maneuvering and legal strategies in the face of incoming administrations.

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Historical Context: The Abuse of Pardons in the 1950s

Maddow opens the episode by recounting the 1950s Perversion Elimination Program in Washington, D.C., where law enforcement disproportionately targeted individuals suspected of engaging in homosexual activities. She highlights the tragic case of Buddy Hunt, the son of Democratic Senator Lester Hunt from Wyoming. After Buddy was arrested in a sting operation, Republican Senator Joe McCarthy leveraged the incident to pressure Senator Hunt into resigning. Despite Senator Hunt's refusal, leading to severe personal distress, the Senate seat flipped to Republican control following Senator Hunt's suicide. Maddow emphasizes this as a "Shakespearean crash of evil against love," underlining the enduring impact of politicized legal actions.

Rachel Maddow [05:45]: "Joe McCarthy's allies in the US Senate... used their political power for political reasons to abuse and pervert the legal system."

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Modern-Day Pardons: Biden vs. Trump

Transitioning to contemporary times, Maddow critiques President Joe Biden's decision to pardon his son, Hunter Biden. She quotes Biden's statement defending the pardon as a response to what he describes as "selectively and unfairly prosecuted" actions against his son. Maddow contrasts this with President Trump's extensive use of pardons to benefit associates and family members.

Rachel Maddow [17:00]: "Donald Trump... gave pardons to seven different Republican congressmen convicted of dozens of felonies."

She underscores Trump's pattern of pardoning individuals with close ties, including Jared Kushner's father, Charles Kushner, and others involved in legal controversies. Maddow points out the inconsistencies and potential abuses in Trump's pardon practices, suggesting a deliberate strategy to protect allies and family, far surpassing Biden's single familial pardon.

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Investigative Reporting: Jane Mayer on Pete Hegseth

In an exclusive interview, Maddow speaks with Jane Mayer, Chief Washington Correspondent at The New Yorker. Mayer reveals alarming details about Trump's nominee for Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth. Her reporting uncovers Hegseth's troubled past, including:

• Leadership Failures: Under Hegseth's presidency, both Veterans for Freedom and Concerned Veterans for America faced financial collapses and internal misconduct.

• Alcohol and Misconduct: Mayer cites whistleblower reports describing Hegseth's repeated intoxication and inappropriate behavior, such as drunkenly chanting "kill all Muslims" and engaging in sexual pursuits with female staffers.

Jane Mayer [31:55]: "I've seen him drunk so many times... To have him at the Pentagon would be scary."

Maddow raises concerns about Hegseth’s suitability for a high-ranking defense position, questioning the Trump administration's vetting processes.

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California's Legal Battle Against Trump Administration: Interview with Rob Bonta

The show features an interview with Rob Bonta, California Attorney General, who outlines the state's proactive measures to counteract anticipated policies from the incoming Trump administration. Bonta discusses:

• Litigation Reserve Fund: California has allocated $25 million to support legal challenges against Trump’s policies, drawing from lessons learned during Trump's first term when the state filed over 120 lawsuits.

• Strategic Collaboration: Bonta emphasizes collaboration with other Democratic states and leveraging collective legal expertise to maximize effectiveness.

Rob Bonta [43:12]: "We've been preparing and readying for weeks, months, in some cases, years."

He highlights successful past legal victories, such as opposing the citizenship question on the 2020 Census and challenging unlawful federal funding conditions.

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Political Turmoil in North Carolina

Maddow highlights ongoing political conflicts in North Carolina, where Republican efforts to strip power from incoming Democratic officials have sparked significant protests. Demonstrators, including high-ranking Democratic Party members, have vocally opposed legislative maneuvers perceived as power grabs, leading to heightened tensions and confrontations within the state capitol.

Rachel Maddow [49:17]: "This is our house and we have a responsibility to show up and educate them."

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Upcoming Documentary and Final Remarks

The episode concludes with Maddow announcing the premiere of the documentary "Separated", directed by Errol Morris and Jacob Soboroff, which explores the forced child separation policy of the Trump administration. She encourages viewers to watch the documentary and stay informed on ongoing political and legal battles.

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Notable Quotes

• Rachel Maddow [05:45]: "Joe McCarthy's allies in the US Senate... used their political power for political reasons to abuse and pervert the legal system."

• Rachel Maddow [17:00]: "Donald Trump... gave pardons to seven different Republican congressmen convicted of dozens of felonies."

• Jane Mayer [31:55]: "I've seen him drunk so many times... To have him at the Pentagon would be scary."

• Rob Bonta [43:12]: "We've been preparing and readying for weeks, months, in some cases, years."

• Rachel Maddow [49:17]: "This is our house and we have a responsibility to show up and educate them."

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Conclusion

In this episode, Rachel Maddow effectively juxtaposes historical and contemporary abuses of political power through the lens of presidential pardons and appointments. Through compelling interviews and thorough analysis, she underscores the significant implications of nepotism and legal manipulations on American democracy. The episode serves as a critical examination of ethical standards in political leadership, urging viewers to remain vigilant and informed.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

The first ever Kia K4 seamlessly combines bold style and advanced tech. With striking star map, LED headlights and an available panoramic display, the Kia K4 delivers design and function. The available Surround View and Blind Spot View monitors can help provide added confidence. Plus, SiriusXM comes standard, bringing you closer to what you love. The Kia K4 balances aesthetics and innovation. Learn more at kia.com K4 surround view and blind Spot View monitors may not detect all objects around or behind the vehicle. Hi, my name's Patrick Adams.

[Rob Bonta]

You may know me as Mike Ross.

[Rachel Maddow]

On the TV series Suits and I'm.

[Sara Rafferty]

Sara Rafferty and I play Donna Paulson on Suits.

[Rachel Maddow]

And we have a podcast called Sidebar where every week we watch and discuss an episode of the show.

[Sara Rafferty]

Because here's the thing, neither of us have really watched it.

[Rachel Maddow]

That's true. At least until now.

[Sara Rafferty]

So we're gonna cover all nine seasons.

[Rachel Maddow]

Share behind the scenes stories, and talk.

[Sara Rafferty]

To our co stars and friends like Gina Torres and Aaron Korsh.

[Rachel Maddow]

So look, if you love Suits, Amazing, this podcast is for you.

[Sara Rafferty]

And if you've never watched Suits, also Amazing, you can join us and we'll watch it together.

[Rachel Maddow]

I think we're going to have a lot of fun.

[Sara Rafferty]

Listen to sidebar wherever you get your.

[Rachel Maddow]

Podcasts and don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode. Really happy to have you here. Hope you had a great holiday. So in the 1950s, police in Washington, D.C. assigned a whole squad of police officers a surprisingly large part of the overall police force, and made it their job to police bathrooms and public parks and other places where they thought men might secretly be meeting up to have sex. They had officers who were trained to come on to people, to make passes at them basically and lead them on to see if they could get the other guy to initiate some kind of a sexual encounter. And then they would slap the cuffs on them and arrest them, haul them downtown. They called this the Perversion Elimination Program. You will not be shocked to learn that what they called perversion was not eliminated by this police program. But this program in the 1950s, it did arrest a lot of people. It did ruin a lot of people's lives. That said, they didn't throw the book at everyone if they picked up somebody in one of these staying operations who was a first time offender, no other trouble with the law, not employed in some sensitive position in which the person could conceivably be blackmailed. Right. They tended in those instances to give a warning. I mean, yeah, maybe they would make the Poor guy spend a night in jail to scare the bejesus out of him, Right? But in those kinds of circumstances, generally they would let the guy go. And that is what happened when a young seminary student was arrested in Washington D.C. in Lafayette park in 1953. He was a very bright young man. He had a seemingly very bright future ahead of him. He was a seminary student after all. He had no other offenses on his record, no involvement with the law whatsoever. But he was picked up in one of these sting operations. They gave him a warning and then they let him go. Pretty much standard operating procedure for how you'd handle that kind of a sting, that kind of an alleged offense, and that kind of a defendant. But then with this particular young man, it turned into something else. Because this young man's father was a United States senator, a Democratic U.S. senator from Wyoming. And as a senator, he had made some very powerful enemies on the other side of the aisle. Specifically, he had squared off against and stood up against one particular Republican senator senator named Joe McCarthy. And when Joe McCarthy and his friends in the Senate learned that Wyoming Senator Lester Hunt's son, Buddy, his name was Buddy Hunt. When they learned that Lester Hunt's son, Buddy had been arrested in a Washington D.C. park for a so called morals offense, they learned that he had been let off with a warning, the way most first time offenders are. And then they decided that they had a better idea for how this particular arrest should be handled. They summoned a police supervisor to their offices in Capitol Hill, brought him up to the United States Senate from the police, and they demanded that this particular young man should have his case reopened. That Buddy Hunt should not be let off with a warning that he should definitely be charged criminally and put on trial. And then after intimidating the police into agreeing to do that, they then went to the kid's dad, they went to Lester Hunt, the Senator, and said, hey, shame about what's happening to your son. You know, we could make this all go away if you'd just resigned from the Senate and give up your seat. And Senator Lester Hunt told them to pound sand. And so Buddy Hunt went to trial and he was convicted. Whereupon Joe McCarthy's allies in the US Senate came back to Lester Hunt and said, huh, I bet that was pretty terrible for you and your family, right? Wouldn't it be a shame if we put a flyer in every mailbox in the state of Wyoming explaining just exactly what Buddy was arrested for and what he did and that he's your son and it's on your family? Wouldn't that be a shame. And are you sure you don't want to resign from the Senate? Senator Lester Hunt worried so much about his son, Buddy. He worried about his wife as well, Buddy's mom. That trial, the trial itself, had already almost killed her. Senator Lester Hunt's friends in the Senate said he was basically reduced to a shell of himself by the worry. He had been really gregarious and outgoing and friendly. By some contemporaneous press accounts, he was kind of the most personally popular member of the Senate among other Senators. He was just a great guy, very outgoing. But when all this started happening, he retreated into himself. He stopped talking to people used to eat alone in his office. He was just profoundly worried and upset by what was happening to his son. And it was happening to his son because of politics, because these Republican senators wanted to wage political war against him, the father. And they knew that the son was the way to get at the father. And Lester Hunt had previously told those Republican senators, when they threatened him, he had previously told them to shove it. But in the end, they did get him out of the Senate. There had been a one seat Democratic majority while Democrat Lester Hunt was in the United States Senate. But when he vacated his seat in the U.S. senate, that flipped Senate control to the Republicans. They got their way when Lester Hunt indeed vacated that seat, and Lester Hunt vacated that seat in the Senate by killing himself in his Senate office in June 1954. Those Republican senators, those allies of Joe McCarthy, they used their political power for political reasons to abuse and pervert the legal system into pursuing a young man for, yes, something that he did, but something for which anyone other than him would never have faced serious legal consequences. And they did it because of who his dad was. And they did it because they knew this young man's dad loved him. And they decided that that father's love for his son would be their best and most effective weapon against the father. Get him right in the heart. One of the most despicable episodes I know of in the entire modern history of American politics. Just a Shakespearean crash of evil against love, with the result being a good man shooting himself at his desk in the United States senate. That was 70 years ago. It was 1954. Last night, President Biden put out a statement explaining his pardon of his son, Hunter. The statement said, quote, from the day I took office, I said I would not interfere with the Justice Department's decision making. And I kept my word, even as I have watched my son being selectively and unfairly prosecuted without aggravating factors. Like use in a crime or multiple purchases or buying a weapon as a straw purchaser. People are almost never brought to trial on felony charges solely for how they filled out a gun form. Those who were late paying taxes because of serious addictions, but paid them back subsequently with interest and penalties. Those people are typically given non criminal resolutions. The President says, quote, it is clear that Hunter was treated differently. The charges in his cases came about only after several, several of my political opponents in Congress instigated them to attack me and oppose my election. Then a carefully negotiated plea deal agreed to by the Department of Justice unraveled in the courtroom, with a number of my political opponents in Congress taking credit for bringing political pressure on the process. No reasonable person who looks at the facts of Hunter's cases can reach any other conclusion than Hunter was singled out only because he is my son. And that is wrong. He says, quote, there has been an effort to break Hunter, who has been five and a half years sober, even in the face of unrelenting attacks and selective prosecution. In trying to break Hunter, they have tried to break me. And there's no reason to believe it will stop here. Enough is enough. He says, quote, for my entire career, I followed a simple principle. Just tell the American people the truth, they'll be fair minded. Well, here's the truth. I believe in the justice system. But as I have wrestled with this, I also believe raw politics has infected this process and it led to a miscarriage of justice. I hope Americans will understand why a father and a president would come to this decision. Father and the president, he says there's no reason to believe it will stop here. Enough is enough. It is true that President Biden had said he wouldn't pardon his son, and it may or may not be related, but would it change your mind at all if after you made a pledge like that, the incoming next president then announced that he planned to remove the director of the FBI and install in his place someone who has literally published a hit list of people he wants to go after once Trump is back in power. There are 60 names on this list. This guy published it as an appendix, as appendix B to one of his recent books. Not his series of books that describe Trump as King Donald. No, Those are his three books for kids. No, the one with the 60 names on a list of who he's gonna go get in Trump's name once Trump is back in power. That's a book he wrote, presumably for adults. So what would you do, what would you do if after you made that pledge to not Pardon your son. That's what the next president said he was gonna do to US Law enforcement. What would you do? What is reasonable to demand of a man after what's been done to your son already? Right? You ready to put him back in the barrel? Honestly? Maybe what President Biden should have done is not just pardon his son Hunter, but name him ambassador to France. Right. Maybe then the response, the criticism of the decision would be a little more muted. I mean, consider it. Right. Donald Trump, the president elect, used his pardon power to give pardons to his longest serving political advisor, his campaign chairman, his campaign manager, his national security adviser. He gave pardons to seven, count em, seven different Republican congressmen convicted of dozens of felonies. He pardoned the father of his son in law. His daughter is married to Jared Kushner. He pardoned Jared Kushner's father. This man tried to blackmail and intimidate a witness in a federal criminal case against him by hiring a prostitute to seduce the witness and lure him back to a hotel room where the guy had staged a hidden camera. He filmed the sexual encounter and then sent the tape to the wife of the witness to intimidate both the witness and the wife into not testifying against him. And that is an astonishing thing to do, an astonishing length to go to to commit the crime of witness witness intimidation. It is a whole other level of insanity when you consider that the woman this guy sent the tape to was his own sister because it was his brother in law, his sister's husband, who was going to be the witness against him in this criminal investigation, along with potentially his sister herself. So this is what he did to his own sister in order to try to shut down the case, in order to try to shut down those witnesses. His name is Charles Kushner. His son Jared is married to Ivanka Trump. And so he got a pardon. He got a pardon. Charles Kushner served two years in federal prison. But then I'm sure, just on the merits of the case, he got a full pardon from Donald Trump in Trump's first term. And now this weekend, this weekend, Trump just named him that same guy, that ex con, he just announced that he will name him ambassador to France. And he did that announcement right after he announced that the father of the guy married to his other daughter, Tiffany, he will be Trump's senior adviser on the Middle East. And so, yeah, cue all the hand wringing and gnashing of teeth today about a president using his power, his pardon power, his powers as president to do something for a family member I mean, Trump pardoned a family member and then named him Ambassador to France, a man who has no qualifications whatsoever to be America's Ambassador to France. Trump pardoned the owner of the 49ers football team and has now nominated his son in law to be the head of the dea. The guy is a local sheriff. He has no apparent qualifications to lead the Drug Enforcement Administration other than being a local sheriff and being related to a rich guy who Trump pardoned. The Surgeon General Trump just announced she is a random doctor from the Fox News Channel who has her own celebrity line of vitamins. She has no apparent qualifications for being Surgeon General at all other than the fact that she's a doctor and she's the sister in law of the guy who he just named to be National Security Advisor. So sure, obviously, why not? The guy he's just named to lead the Navy has zero experience with the U.S. navy or with literally anything having to do with any part of the United States military. But the guy did hold a $12 million fundraiser for Trump at his multimillion dollar home, which famously features a mirrored floor. So haha, you can see up people's skirts while they're standing in the living room with the fundraiser. You think I'm kidding? Look it up. Trump named someone who the US Government once felt the need to put on a terrorism watch list to be the new Director of National Intelligence. He named an accused child sex trafficker to be Attorney General. He named an HHS secretary who says heroin. Heroin helps him read better and wifi gives you leaky brain. And I'm just going to mention this one more time. He named his convicted felon relative to be our nation's ambassador in Paris. Maybe his French is excellent, I don't know. But yes, tell me more about how outraged we all are about President Biden's pardon for his son, because that somehow that is the thing that looks bad. Trump himself responded to the pardon news by asking sarcastically whether the pardon includes all the convicted defendants from the violent attack on Congress waged by his supporters on January 6, 2021. If nothing else, that reaction from Trump serves to confirm and remind us all that Trump plans to use his pardon power to pardon all of those January 6th convicts, apparently as soon as he's sworn in. And so if this is our national moment to be tut tutting about pardons, right, to be saying that the use of the pardon power might be a problem and might deserve, like I don't four different simultaneous headlines on the front page of the New York Times, right? Now, tonight, then, let's talk about this other one. Let's talk about 33 year old man who lives in Henry County, Georgia, just southeast of Atlanta. Well, he used to live there. He doesn't live there anymore. Now he lives in prison where he is serving four years and nine months in prison. And this is why.

[Jane Mayer]

Five more home, five more.

[Rachel Maddow]

Times. Trump M.

[Jane Mayer]

Usa, usa. Usa. Usa.

[Ted Danson]

Usa.

[Jane Mayer]

Usa. Usa. Usa.

[Rachel Maddow]

So Trump is indicating that that guy's going to get a pardon. Trump is indicating that he's going to pardon all the patriots who were convicted for what they did for him on January 6, which presumably includes this guy wailing away on police officers using a crutch to try to smash their faces in. I mean, this was Trump's sarcastic response to Biden's pardon announcement today. Does the pardon given by Joe include the J6 hostages? This isn't what hostages look like. This is what January 6th looked like from police officers perspectives. And that is the behavior on January 6th. You see him here dragging a police officer down the steps of the captain. That's the behavior on January 6 that Trump is praising and promising to use his pardon power for. So yeah, tell me all about the scandal of the use of the pardon power. Trump's announced nominee to lead the FBI has made the January 6th defendants his main cause since leaving office at the end of Trump's first term. Celebrating the January 6th attack as the work of patriots who all need to be freed, who need to be celebrated and supported. And we will see what happens with the Cash Patel nomination to lead the FBI, given the explicit in writing hit list that he has published, given his celebration of the violence on January 6th. Right. That FBI nomination is arguably a more extreme nomination than the accused child sex trafficker guy. Trump wanted to make attorney General and that would be nomination already failed. But you know what, with Cash Patel and with all the rest of them, it's up to Republican senators. God help us. So we shall see. It was only after Trump publicly named his choice for defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, that Trump's transition team reportedly learned that Mr. Hegseth had been the subject of a police investigation for an alleged rape. This is the police report from that alleged incident. You can see the alleged offense listed there. Rape victim unconscious of the nature of the act. It was also reportedly a surprise to the Trump transition team that after this allegation was made against Hegseth, he paid off the woman who made the allegation to keep her from talking about it in public. Surprise. Hegseth obviously knew all of that about himself. But he didn't tell the Trump team, and it turns out they didn't figure it out on their own. Wow. Turns out vetting and background checks might be a nice thing sometimes. Hegseth denies the allegation here, but the woman went to the hospital and submitted herself to a rape kit examination, and that resulted in a report to local authorities for potential prosecution of Hegseth. Hegseth himself apparently received a copy of the police report on the investigation in 2021 after local authorities in California decided that he would not be charged in the matter. But none of this was apparently known to the Trump transition team, which again appears to have not done any formal vetting or background check of Hegseth at all other than turning him on on the weekends to watch him on Fox and Friends. Tonight, we're going to be joined by legendary New Yorker reporter Jane Mayer, who has just broken new news about Pete Hegseth that again might have been turned up by any professional and thorough effort to vet the guy before naming him as the choice to be defense secret. But this is all news to Trump and his transition as of today. Jane Mayer joins us with that new reporting here next.

[Unknown]

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[Ted Danson]

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[Jane Mayer]

So.

[Rachel Maddow]

There'S new reporting today from legendary reporter Jane Mayer in the New Yorker about the man who's been announced as the choice for defense secretary in the incoming administration. According to Jane Mayer's new reporting, before Pete Hegseth was hired to be a TV host at the Fox News Channel in 2017, he had been forced out of two small right wing veterans advocacy organizations that he had been involved in. The first one was a group called Veterans for Freedom. They hired him on to lead that organization in 2007. According to mayor's reporting, by 2008, the very next year, the group's finances had collapsed amid concerns about wild spending and, quote, sexually inappropriate behavior in the workplace. The group's donors soon folded the organization into a different veterans group, basically, according to Mayor's reporting, in order to get Hegseth's hands off the checkbook. So that was Veterans for Freedom. Then it was Concerned Veterans for America where Hegseth was in charge from 2013 to 2016 before he was is forced out of that organization too. From Mayer's reporting, quote, a previously undisclosed whistleblower report on Hegseth's tenure as the president of Concerned Veterans for America describes him as being repeatedly intoxicated while acting in his official capacity to the point of needing to be carried out of the organization's events. The detailed report, which was compiled by multiple former employees and sent to the organization's senior management, states that at one point, Hegseth had to be restrained while drunk from joining the dancers on the stage of a Louisiana strip club where he had brought his team from the organization. The report also says that Hegseth, who was married at the time, and other members of his management team sexually pursued the organization's female staffers, whom they divided into two groups, the party girls and the quote, not party girls. In a separate letter of complaint which was sent to the organization, a different former employee described Hegseth being at a bar in the early morning morning hours of May 29, 2015, while on an official tour through Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio. He was drunkenly chanting at the bar, quote, kill all Muslims. Kill all Muslims. Mayer says, quote, I spoke at length with two people who identified themselves as having contributed to the whistleblower report. One of them said of Hegseth, quote, I've seen him drunk so many times. I've seen him dragged away not a few times, but multiple times. To have him at the Pentagon would be scary, adding, quote, when those of us who worked at Concerned Veterans for America heard he was being considered for secretary of defense, it wasn't no. It was hell no. According to the complaint, at one such CVA event in Virginia beach on Memorial Day weekend in 2014, Hegseth was, quote, totally sloshed and needed to be carried to his room because he was, quote, so intoxicated. The following month, during an event in Cleveland, Hegseth, who had gone with his team to a bar around the corner from their hotel, was described as, quote, completely drunk in a public place. According to the report, several high profile people who attended the organization's event were very disappointed to see this kind of public behavior that the report does not identify them. Nevertheless, in October 2014, the group instituted a no alcohol policy at its events. The following month, however, Hegseth and another manager lifted the policy lifted the no alcohol policy while overseeing a get out the vote field operation to boost Republican candidates in North Carolina. According to the report, on the evening before the election election, Hegseth, who had been out with three young female staff members, was so inebriated by 1am That a staffer who'd driven him to his hotel and a van full of other drunken staffers asked for assistance to get Hegseth to his room. Quote, Pete was completely passed out in the middle seat, slumped over a young female staff member. The report says it took two male staff members to get Hegseth into the hotel. After one young woman vomited in some bushes, another helped him to bed. In the morning, a team member had to wake Hegseth so he didn't miss his flight. According to the report, quote, all of this happened in public while Concerned Veterans for America was embedded in the Republican get out the vote effort. The following month, in December 2014, the group held an office Christmas party at the Grand Hyatt in Washington. Once again, according to the report, Hegseth was noticeably intoxicated and had to be carried up to his room. The report stated, quote, his behavior was embarrassing in front of the team, but not surprising. People have simply come to expect Pete to get drunk at social events. The 2015 federal tax filing by Concerned Veterans for America has an unusual note saying, quote, major problems developed in the last fiscal year were paused. The filing also describes Pete Hegseth as, quote, president, outgoing. By the start of 2016, Hegseth was out of his job. I should tell you, NBC News has not independently confirmed the reporting in the New Yorker. Pete Hegseth would not comment for the piece, though someone described as an advisor to him told the magazine that the claims were, quote, outlandish. Outlandish or not, what Jane Mayer's reporting is describing is how things apparently went with the last two tiny organizations that he ran, two very small right wing advocacy groups that had a handful of staff. Now Trump wants him in charge of the largest department in the US government with an $800 billion budget and 3 million people to be in charge of. In 1989, George H.W. bush, newly elected president, nominated this man, John Tower, to be his Secretary of Defense. John Tower was then accused of womanizing and drunkenness on a scale significantly smaller than this. John Tower then made history by becoming the first cabinet nominee the Senate had ever rejected from a newly elected president. When Pete Hexeth was announced as Trump's choice for defense secretary, the Trump transition team was apparently completely unaware of the rape allegations that had been leveled against him in California. They apparently were unaware of all this stuff as well. And, you know, that's why vetting is a good idea. I gotta say. That's why journalism is, too. Joining us now is Jane Mayer, chief Washington correspondent at the New Yorker magazine. Ms. Mayer, it's really nice to see you. Thank you for making time to be here tonight.

[Jane Mayer]

So glad to be with you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Did I get any of that? The wrong way around. Or is there anything else from your reporting that you want to highlight for our audience to understand in terms of what you learned about Mr. Hegseth?

[Jane Mayer]

Well, thanks so much. Thanks. You did a great summary. And the one thing I would say that is also clear from this report is that we gave a spokesman, a lawyer for Pete Hegseth, two days basically, to respond, and they have not denied a single thing in this report. So they just said no comment after being given sort of very careful questions. The other thing I'd like to say is just that it's been almost a day since this story came out, and my phone has been ringing off the hook. I have been hearing from many more people who worked with Pete Hegseth who have come out of the woodwork to say they, too, have stories along the same lines, stories of just drinking himself into sort of oblivion. All of which I think is, you know, I mean, I've got nothing against people having a good time in life, but it's when you combine it with running the Defense Department that it really does get to be an alarming picture.

[Rachel Maddow]

I wanted to ask you about the first veterans group chronologically, the first veterans group that Hegseth was involved with. This group, Veterans for Freedom, you say under his leadership, Veterans for Freedom soon ran up enormous debt. And financial records indicate that by the end of 2008, the year after he became the leader of the group, it was unable to pay its creditors. The group's primary donors became concerned their money was being wasted on inappropriate expenses. There were rumors of parties that, quote, could politely be called trysts. A former associate of the group put it. One early Hegseth sympathizer said, I wasn't the first to hear there was money sloshing around and sexually inappropriate behavior in the workplace. I don't mean to be dense here, but can you explain or just put in different terms what exactly that allegation means about the the sort of combination of a fiscal problem at the organization, a financial problem at the organization under his leadership, but also something about what was going on in the workplace and with these parties.

[Jane Mayer]

Well, I mean, it's no secret to anyone who knows Pete Hegseth that he's had gone through at least two marriages, and there are many, many, many allegations of infidelity, which are the reason that his marriages ended and that there's been a long pattern here that we've seen of sexually inappropriate behavior by him in the workplace and overspending as well. And so that is what people saw even in the beginning Way back. That was back 2007. And as you say, by 2008, I mean, that organization was on the brink of bankruptcy. And it was. The thing is, if you think about it as a test of whether this person might be a manager of the largest federal department in America, it was an organization that had between five and 10 employees and a budget of between five and $10 million. I mean, it's minuscule, really. There's just no history that he has that shows that he's capable of managing a large organization.

[Rachel Maddow]

Senator Richard Blumenthal told you, much as we might be sympathetic to people with continuing alcohol problems, they shouldn't be at the top of our national security structure. It's dangerous. The Secretary of defense is involved in every issue of national security. He's involved in the use of nuclear weapons. Entrusting these kinds of issues to someone who might be incapacitated for any reason is a risk we cannot take. Did. Jane, last question for you. As you were reporting this and trying to get comment from Hegseth, did you come across any indication that the Trump transition or that former President Trump himself was aware of these problems in Hegseth's past when he was announced, when Trump announced him to be the choice for defense secretary?

[Jane Mayer]

I mean, it's actually not clear. The lawyer for Pete Hegseth said that he was, he was consulting with the transition team when we asked all these questions. But it's unclear whether Pete Hegseth came clean on this extraordinary back history in his professional life. And, you know, I mean, he certainly, he certainly did not disclose that there had been a rape allegation against him and that he had paid off a woman and signed a national, you know, an NDA non disclosure agreement with her in order to keep it secret. So, I mean, that was definitely not disclosed to the transition team. I mean, as you've been saying, I think if nothing else, this shows you what a tremendous mistake it is not to do background checks. I mean, the press, we're doing the best that we can, but, you know, we're not the FBI. And I was just. It was jaw dropping what I learned about Pete Hegson.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah. And the fact that your phone, as you said, has been ringing off the hook all day today since this has been out there with more people calling to corroborate these kinds of allegations. We'll look forward to your. Well, we won't look forward. We will expect your continued reporting on this. Jane, thanks for helping us understand it. I appreciate it.

[Jane Mayer]

Thanks for having me.

[Rob Bonta]

All right.

[Rachel Maddow]

Jane Mayer is chief Washington correspondent at the New Yorker magazine. We'll be right back. Stay with us.

[Ted Danson]

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[Sara Rafferty]

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[Rachel Maddow]

Hey, guys, have you heard of Gold Belly? It's this amazing site where they ship the most iconic famous foods from restaurants across the country anywhere nationwide. I've never found a more perfect gift than food. They ship Chicago deep dish pizza, New York bagels, Maine lobster rolls, and even Ina Garten's famous cakes. So if you're looking for a gift for the food lover in your Life, head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code gift. So at the time, it was the most destructive wildfire season California had ever had. Dozens of people died, thousands of buildings burned. And then came the political fallout. Conspiracy websites started falsely blaming the fires on an undocumented immigrant, saying it was all arson. And that's who started it. The sheriff of Sonoma County, California, issued a statement debunking that false claim. But of course, this happened in 2017, the first year of the first Trump administration. And any story that blamed an undocumented immigrant for a blue state tragedy was just too good for Trump officials to pass up, no matter how unfounded it was. And so Trump's acting director of ice, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, a man named Tom Homan, he jumped on it. He criticized the Sonoma county sheriff who had debunked the conspiracy theory. He said the sheriff had left the community vulnerable to dangerous individuals. The sheriff responded then to Tom Homan with clarity, with a pledge to take care of the people that he served. He said, quote, ice's misleading statement stirs fear in some of our community members who are already exhausted and scared. Despite ice's misleading statement, we'll continue to protect and serve our community members.

[Jane Mayer]

Well.

[Rachel Maddow]

Now that same ICE official, Tom Homan, is going to be back. One of the first decisions Trump made after his reelection was to announce that he was bringing back Tom Homan, this time to be his border czar, whatever that means. But the resolve of California officials to stand up to Donald Trump, that is all. Also back and in a big way. According to the Washington Post, by the end of Trump's first term in office, California had filed more than 120 lawsuits against the Trump administration. California, in Trump's first term sued Trump over everything from immigration policy to healthcare to gun safety. Now, with Trump set to return to the White House, California lawmakers today opened an emergency special session of the state legislature specifically for the purpose of of funding a new legal fight, starting a new legal fund to fight the incoming Trump administration in court. California Governor Gavin Newsom has asked the state legislature to set aside $25 million for potential California state lawsuits against Trump's federal government. California's top lawyer, State Attorney General Rob Bonte, says that he's ready to do that work.

[Rob Bonta]

We've been here before. We live through Trump 1.0, which means we won't be flat footed come January. You can be sure that as California Attorney General, if Trump attacks your rights, I'll be there.

[Rachel Maddow]

Joining us now is Rob Bonte. He's Attorney General for the great state of California. Mr. Attorney General, thank you very much for making time to be here tonight.

[Rob Bonta]

Honored to be with you, Rachel. Thanks for having me.

[Rachel Maddow]

What should our viewers understand about how you're sort of strategizing for the days ahead? The end of next month, Trump will be taking power in Washington. He's talked a lot of big talk about what he wants to do on day one and what he wants to do right out of the gate? How are you thinking strategically about what California can do to protect Californians rights and to defend some of the state's policy interests against what you're expecting from Trump?

[Rob Bonta]

My plan for my California Department of Justice is to hold Mr. Trump and his administration accountable if and when they violate the law. They did it repeatedly, consistently during Trump 1.0 we my office took him to court over 120 times. We won and prevailed a vast majority of the times because he was violating the Constitution, in particular the 10th amendment and separation of powers. At times he was violating the federal law, including the Administrative Procedures Act. He was misusing money that was budgeted for other purposes than the purpose he was seeking to use it for. We will hold him accountable when he violates the law. And based on what he has said he would do, his inner circle said he would do what Project 2025 indicates he will do. We have a good sense of where he's headed on immigration, on reproductive freedom, on common sense, gun safety, on environment. So we've been preparing and readying for weeks, months, in some cases, years. We've written briefs that are ready to press, print, just need to dot the I's, cross the T's and file it in court based on the actions he has signaled and telegraphed he will take. So we're ready. We are committed to making sure progress prevails in California, that our forward movement continues and we're not looking for a fight. But if he picks a fight with us, gets in the way of our progress here in California, we'll be ready.

[Rachel Maddow]

This $25 million request to the legislature is obviously a big chunk of money. It's not, however, the same amount of money that was spent in California. It doesn't actually match the amount that was spent by the state to bring those 120 lawsuits, those 120 challenges against the Trump administration when Trump was first in office. Can I just ask you, what were the lessons learned of California's strategy along these lines in the first term, both in terms of spending the taxpayers money wisely, but also in acting most effectively, when to act alone, when to act in concert with other states, when to get things into federal court, and when to to when to expect that maybe holding back on that might be the better part of valor. Given the constitution of the federal courts right now. What were the lessons learned from the first time that you had to do this as a state?

[Rob Bonta]

Yeah, I'll first say that the $25 million litigation reserve is not the same as the 42 million that was spent over four years. But this is year one. It's a reserve to draw on as needed, as necessary. And what we do will be full, fully based on and related to the actions that Mr. Trump and his administration takes. If he doesn't violate any laws, unlike he did in Trump 1.0, if he doesn't violate the Constitution or federal law or misuse budget, there will be absolutely nothing for us to do. We don't expect that based on what he said and what he's done in the past. So there's a couple things. The return on investment of the additional funds coming to the California Department of Justice is huge. We were able to save California billions of dollars for examp in striking down the citizenship question on the 2020 U.S. census, by our accounts and estimations have saved California billions of dollars in funds that we received based on getting a accurate count that wasn't suppressed. There were federal funds that violated the 10th Amendment because they were conditioned on providing assistance to federal immigration authorities on immigration enforcement. And those were two grants of about $30 million. We sued in court because of those unlawful conditions that violated the 10th Amendment. We got those grants. So we have seen some of the patterns in the violations. Mr. Trump likes to do what he wants, when he wants, how he wants, regardless of the Constitution, regardless of federal law, and regardless of the processes in place, regardless of what the budget is supposed to be used for, he wants to use it for what he wants to use it for. So he can't help himself. He will violate the law. And it's our job to be there when he does. We know that it's better to go together. We can go further when we go together than when we go alone. And so we have been preparing with Democratic attorneys general, other states across the nation, New York, Attorney General Letitia James, others in Nevada, Illinois, Delaware, Connecticut, teaming up, preparing. We all have different expertise, institutional knowledge, deploying our expertise and our talent, talent, as is most effective, is part of the game plan. There will be a lot to do, and we have a lot of members on our team to do it with. We're also working with advocates in various policy spaces, from immigration to reproductive freedom, common sense, gun safety, and working with them for best ideas, getting best thinking, best strategy, best litigation strategy, so we know what courts to file in and, and where it's best. And so we've thought it down to.

[Rachel Maddow]

The T. California Attorney General Rob Bonte, thank you very much for helping us understand this tonight. We look forward to having you back in days and weeks ahead, as I'm sure these battles take shape. Thank you, sir.

[Rob Bonta]

Look forward to it, too. Thanks for having me, Rachel.

[Rachel Maddow]

All right, we'll be right back. Stay with us. While Blue State, California's legislature was meeting today to fund a litigation reserve for challenges against the incoming Trump administration, today in North Carolina, people turned out again at the state capitol there, including the chair of the state Democratic Party. It's all part of what's turning out to be a really spirited opposition in North Carolina to an effort by Republicans there to strip power away from incoming Democratic officials. The debate started. The protests did, too, destroying the wheel of the water. One woman was escorted from the building. This is ridiculous. Things escalated quickly.

[Ted Danson]

Clear the gallery.

[Rachel Maddow]

Just clear the gallery.

[Ted Danson]

Everybody's gotta go.

[Rachel Maddow]

Clear the gallery. Everybody's gotta go. With the opposition physically removed, Republicans in the state Senate pushed through an override of the governor's veto of this power stripping bill. It's far less clear whether Republicans in the state House will manage to do the same next week. But people are pushing back hard against Republicans trying this big power grab in North Carolina. This is an ongoing fight in that state. We're watching it closely. Watch this space.

[Jane Mayer]

We felt like it was necessary that they know that we're watching.

[Rachel Maddow]

You know, this is our house and we have a responsibility to show up and educate them. Programming note this weekend, this coming Saturday night, 9pm Eastern Saturday night, MSNBC is going to premiere the new documentary from the legendary filmmaker Errol Morris and our NBC colleague Jacob Soboroff. This is the film Separated that you have heard about. It tells the inside story of the forced child separation policy during the first Trump administration. It's going to premiere here on MSNBC Saturday night, 9:00 Eastern, right before it airs 8:00 Eastern Saturday night, I'll be joining my colleague Eamon Mohildin on his show. I hope you'll join us. Excuse me, 7:00 Eastern. I hope you'll join us for that ahead of the film premiere at nine. All right, that does it for us tonight.

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[Rachel Maddow]

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