Moral principles drive faith leaders to speak out against Trump on immigration, foreign policy

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rachel Maddow Show

Episode: Moral principles drive faith leaders to speak out against Trump on immigration, foreign policy

Air Date: January 20, 2026

Host: Rachel Maddow, MS NOW

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Episode Overview

This episode explores a pivotal moment as prominent faith leaders in America publicly confront President Donald Trump’s administration on matters of immigration and foreign policy. Rachel Maddow traces the moral roots and contemporary actions of religious figures who invoke conscience, courage, and the legacy of Christian martyrdom to resist Trump-era policies. Key topics include increasing religious opposition to government actions, large-scale protests against ICE and deportations, and a successful grassroots campaign pressuring Avelo Airlines to end its deportation flights. Notable guests include Cardinal Blaise Cupich, the Archbishop of Chicago, and Umi Hak, an organizer behind the Avelo campaign.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legacy of Moral Witness in Faith Leadership (00:56–09:00)

• Historical Parallel: Maddow opens with the story of Jonathan Daniels, a young Episcopal seminarian murdered in 1965 while fighting for civil rights in Alabama. Daniels’s act of heroism—sacrificing his life to save a young Black activist—underscores the moral courage demanded of religious leaders confronting injustice.

  • Quote (Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.): “One of the most heroic Christian deeds of which I have heard in my entire ministry was performed by Jonathan Daniels.” (08:25)

• Contemporary Echoes: Bishop Rob Hirschfeld of New Hampshire draws from this legacy, counseling his clergy to prepare “for a new era of martyrdom,” referencing threats posed by current federal actions—especially after the fatal shooting of Renee Goode by an ICE officer.

  • Quote (Bishop Hirschfeld, paraphrased): "I'm just asking you to live your life without fear of death. Be prepared. ... Not everyone can be a Jonathan Daniels, but we're increasingly called to go into places that feel dangerous."
    (09:44)

2. Faith Leaders Oppose Trump’s Foreign Policy (09:50–12:40)

• Archbishop Timothy Broglio and Conscientious Objection: While discussion swirls about President Trump’s threat to invade Greenland, Archbishop Broglio (serving US armed forces) publicly states that service members would be on “moral ground” to refuse such orders.

  • Quote (Archbishop Broglio): “It would be morally acceptable to disobey that order.” (12:06)

• Joint Catholic Statement: The three ranking US Catholic cardinals (Washington D.C., Chicago, and Newark) issue a rare, forthright condemnation of current US foreign policy, especially concerning military threats to sovereign nations like Greenland. They question the “moral role” of America under the Trump administration.

  • Quote (Joint statement, summarized): “We renounce war as an instrument for narrow national interests and proclaim that military action must be seen only as a last resort in extreme situations, not a normal instrument of national policy.” (31:23)

3. America’s Global Isolation and Domestic Unrest (12:40–22:00)

• Allies Defend Greenland Against the US: In an extraordinary turn, NATO allies (Denmark, France, UK, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Netherlands, Finland) send troops to Greenland to prevent a US invasion, signaling profound diplomatic rupture.

• Protests & Rising Resistance Nationwide:

  • Massive grassroots protests erupt against ICE and Trump administration policies in cities across the country—Philadelphia, Austin, Denver, Albuquerque, Akron, Boston, Morristown, Fargo, Alameda, Portland (ME), Minneapolis, Broadview (IL), and more.
  • Protests draw creative and symbolic demonstrations, such as “Return to Sender” signs by postal workers in Minneapolis and sled races mocking the deportation process.
    • Memorable Moment: “Make America Go Away” MAGA hats featured in Greenland protests. (14:40)

• ICE Expansion Met with Local Backlash: Cities and towns—blue and red, nationwide—overwhelmingly oppose new ICE detention center plans, from Durant (OK) to Roxbury (NJ) to Hutchins (TX) and beyond, demonstrating bipartisan community resistance.

4. A Corporate Target: The Avelo Airlines Protest Victory (22:00–47:09)

• Background: Avelo, a small airline, contracts with ICE to operate deportation flights alongside its commercial routes. Awareness grows as activists uncover the practice, sparking sustained, multi-state protests and petitions.

• Escalation and Impact:

  • Avelo faces opposition at every major base, starts losing state subsidies, and pulls out of several airports amid mounting reputational damage.
  • With broad coalition support, the “Stop Avelo” campaign leverages public pressure until Avelo terminates its ICE deportation flights.
    • Quote from Organizers: “More than anything, this campaign proves the fragility of the system. ICE and the security forces of this current government are not invulnerable. ... Refuse inevitability and fight together.” (42:17)

• Interview with Organizer Umi Hak (Defend & Recruit Network) (43:13–46:42)

  • On the Campaign’s Unique Leverage: "It became really obvious that Avelo was a public company ... so they were an especially important and especially vulnerable target." (43:44)
  • On Movement-Building: "The fight doesn't stop now... Now is the time, especially if you're not an immigrant yourself, to get involved in campaigns and protests and organizing so that we can turn outrage into action and then action into actual power." (46:42)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Bishop Hirschfeld (on modern American martyrdom)

  • “Prepare for a new era of martyrdom ... have your wills written... have your soul ready in case you find yourself in trouble.” (09:22–09:50)

• Cardinal Blaise Cupich (on Trump’s mass deportations)

  • “If the indiscriminate mass deportations being reported were to be carried out, this would be an affront to the dignity of all people and communities and deny the legacy of what it means to be an American.” (28:53)
  • “Families are being torn apart, children are left in fear and communities are shaken by immigration raids and detentions. These actions wound the soul of our city.” (30:24)

• Archbishop Broglio (on resisting unjust war)

  • “It would be very difficult... but strictly speaking, he or she would be within the realm of their own conscience. It would be morally acceptable to disobey that order [to invade Greenland].” (12:06)

• Rachel Maddow (on global isolation):

  • “It means that America truly, maybe more so than at any other time in the history of our nation, stands alone in the world—and for good reason.” (14:10)

• Umi Hak (on corporate vulnerability):

  • “Now is the time, especially if you're not an immigrant yourself, to get involved in campaigns and protests and organizing so that we can turn outrage into action and then action into actual power.” (46:42)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Jonathan Daniels and the Moral Call to Action: 00:56–09:16
• Faith Leaders Respond to Trump Era Threats: 09:16–12:40
• International Fallout: Greenland, NATO, and America’s Isolation: 12:40–15:30
• Nationwide ICE/Trump Protests & Local Backlash: 15:30–22:00
• Cardinal Cupich on Church, Morality, and Resistance: 28:53–37:03
• Avelo Airlines Campaign Victory and Organizer Interview: 38:46–47:09

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Flow & Tone

Rachel Maddow’s delivery is urgent, passionate, and deeply rooted in a sense of moral seriousness, blending historical perspective with contemporary reporting. Her interviews invite guests to clarify the moral stakes and practical choices facing leaders and regular citizens alike, underlining themes of courage, nonviolence, and collective action.

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Conclusion

This episode captures a transformative moment as American faith leaders, supported by a broad base of civic protest, directly confront what they deem as immoral action by the Trump administration, both domestically and abroad. From inspiring historical acts of martyrdom to modern community organizing and corporate accountability, the episode underscores the enduring power of collective, conscience-driven resistance.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

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Hire high quality [e-mail] really happy to have you here. So he grew up in New Hampshire. He was born and raised in Keene, New Hampshire. He then left New Hampshire to go to military school. He went to vmi, to the Virginia Military Institute. He was actually valedictorian of his class at vmi. He then went on to Harvard. He was going to be an English literature major at Harvard. But he soon changed his mind. He felt a calling. He was called to the priesthood. And so he left Harvard. He enrolled in the Episcopal Theological Seminary in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And it is while he was enrolled at seminary, he was still a seminarian that he got permission from the seminary to complete some of his classwork remotely, not in Massachusetts, but in Alabama. It was 1965, the roiling summer of 1965, and he went to Lowndes County, Alabama, right in the Alabama black belt. He went there to serve the poor. He tutored kids, tried to get people hooked up with programs that could help them financially. He helped integrate a whites only Episcopal Church in Lowndes County, Alabama. He registered people to vote there. Specifically, he registered African Americans to vote in Lowndes County. His name was Jonathan Daniels and in 1965 he was 26 years old. 26 year old Episcopal Seminarian on August 14, 1965, Jonathan Daniels, this young man, the seminarian, he put on his clerical collar and he took part in a peaceful picket of segregated whites only businesses in a town called Fort Deposit, Alabama. In Lowndes County. They wanted those businesses to serve everyone, regardless of race. They protested for it. Local police in Lowndes county arrested every single person taking part in that picket. And they put them all in a garbage truck and they drove them in the garbage truck to the Lowndes County Jail in Haynesville, Alabama. And all of the people, about 30 people who participated in that protest, they were all held in the Lowndes County Jail in Haynesville for six days. And on August 20, at the end of those six days, in the stinking heat of that hot, hot aug, the protesters were let out and they were just dumped outside. No transportation anywhere, no warning. They were just dumped out in the street. And then picture this young seminarian again. He's wearing his clerical collar, which he has now been wearing for six days in jail. He's 26 years old and he's with another priest, another white priest, a Catholic priest, who's about the same age as him, he's newly ordained as a Catholic priest, he's 27. And these two priests, age 26, 27, both white men, both dressed for work as priests, both dressed in their clerical collars, they get out of jail after six days spent in there. And when they get out, while they and their fellow protesters are trying to figure out how are they going to get a ride, how are they going to get back to where they live, how are they going to let people know that they're out? These two priests and two young women who had also taken part in the protest, who had also been locked up, they decided they would cross the street from the jail and go get a Coke, go to a local store and get something to drink. It's a really hot day in August. It's these two priests, these two young white men and two young black women again, who had also been part of the protest. And one of the young women, her name is Joyce Bailey, she's 19 years old. The other young woman, Ruby sales, is just 17. But the four of them, the two priests and these two teenage girls, they walk over to the store to go get a soda. And Jonathan Daniels, the Episcopal seminarian, he borrows a dime from 17 year old Ruby Sales so he can buy a soda. And the four of them walk up to that store. And as they get up to the door of that store, a white man with a shotgun swears at them and tells them to get off this property or I'll blow your bleeping heads off. And that man standing at the door of the store, he levels the shotgun and he aims at 17 year old Ruby Sayles. And this Episcopal seminarian, Jonathan Daniels, he sees that the man is actually going to fire the shotgun. And he pushes 17 year old Ruby Sayles out of the way. He throws himself in front of the gun and he takes the full blast from the shotgun to his chest and he is killed. And he's laying there on his back on the ground, bleeding to death. 17 year old Ruby Sales survives. The other priest, 27 year old Richard Morris row. He grabs the other young woman, this 19 year old Joyce Bailey, and he runs with her and the man at the store with the gun having killed this Episcopal priest, this Episcopal seminarian having killed Daniels, he fires again and he shoots the Catholic priest in the back and leaves him for dead. And 19 year old Joyce Bailey survives and 17 year old Ruby Sales survives. And Richard Morris Rowe, The Catholic priest, 27 years old, he is shot in the back. He's shot in the spine. He is very nearly killed. He spends months in the hospital. But Jonathan Daniels dies there. He is killed there at the door of that store in Haynesville, Alabama. And when they put his killer on trial in that Lowndes county courthouse, it was an all white jury. And the man who killed that seminarian, he claimed self defense. Self defense. An armed man claiming self defense against these two young priests and these two teenage girls, needless to say, all of whom were unarmed. He claimed self defense against them and he Was acquitted. Took 1 hour and 43 minutes of thinking about it. The following year that killer did an interview with CBS News in which he proclaimed that he had no regrets about it. He said, quote, I would shoot them both tomorrow. By which he means both of those men in clerical collars. 17 year old Ruby Sales went on to become a seminarian in her own right and an important civil rights activist herself. Jonathan Daniels went on to become a saint, quite literally. The Episcopal Church decades later, named Jonathan Daniels officially a Christian martyr. His feast day in the Episcopal Church is not the day he was killed, August 20th. It's actually August 14th, the day he was arrested for peacefully protesting before they killed him. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Who is honored today with a federal holiday in his name. When he heard about what happened that day in Hayneville, Dr. King said, quote, one of the most heroic Christian deeds of which I have heard in my entire ministry was performed by Jonathan Daniels in New Hampshire, where Jonathan Daniels is from, in Concord, New Hampshire. The Episcopal bishop there now in 2026, said that he had Jonathan Daniels on his mind when he gave new advice to the Episcopal priests who he oversees now in New Hampshire. It was at a vigil for Renee Goode, who was shot and killed in Minneapolis by an ICE officer. When Episcopal bishop in New Hampshire Rob Hirschfeld said that he had asked his clergy in New Hampshire to prepare, quote, for a new era of martyrdom.

[Cardinal Blaise Cupich]

I have told the clergy of the.

[Narrator/Host]

Episcopal Diocese of New Hampshire that we.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

May be entering into that same witness. And I've asked them to get their.

[Cardinal Blaise Cupich]

Affairs in order.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

To make sure they.

[Narrator/Host]

Have their wills written.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

Because it may be that now is no longer the time for statements, but for us with.

[Narrator/Host]

Our bodies to stand between the powers.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

Of this world and the most vulnerable. I've asked them to get their affairs in order. In an interview this weekend with npr, Bishop Hirschfield explained what he meant by that very dramatic pronouncement. He said, quote, what I said to the clergy was, I'm just asking you to live your life without fear of death. Be prepared. I'm not asking you to go look for that bullet. I'm simply saying, be ready, have your affairs in order. Have your soul ready in case you find yourself in trouble. The bishop said, quote, not everyone can be a Jonathan Daniels, but we're increasingly called to go into places that feel dangerous. While that Episcopal bishop in New Hampshire was doing that interview with NPR yesterday, at the same time, Catholic Archbishop Timothy Broglio was doing an interview with the BBC. Now, Archbishop Broglio is the archbishop who serves the US Armed forces for the Catholic Church. And Archbishop Broglio was asked in this BBC interview yesterday about the prospect that President Donald Trump may order the US Military to invade Greenland to try to seize Greenland for the United States. Archbishop Broglio told the BBC, quote, it would be very difficult for a soldier or marine or a sailor by himself to. To disobey an order such as that. But strictly speaking, he or she would be within the realm of their own conscience. It would be morally acceptable to disobey that order. So yesterday, in one day, we have the Episcopal bishop in New Hampshire explaining that his clergy need to have their wills written and their affairs on order because they may be called to stand up against tyranny in the United States right now to the point of dangerousness, to the point where their lives be at risk, to the point where he is talking about martyrdom in his church. The same day, the Catholic archbishop for the U.S. armed Services says it would be morally acceptable for U.S. service members to refuse orders from this president to invade a country that he is currently threatening all in one day. Then today, the very next day, the three highest ranking Catholic clerics in the United States, cardinals who oversee Washington, D.C. and Chicago and Newark, all released a joint statement lambasting the foreign policy adventurism of the US Government right now, saying it calls into question the, quote, moral role of our country. And, you know, that's a lot all at once. I mean, whether, whether or not you're a religious person, even if you are a religious person, whether or not these developments are from your faith tradition, I think it's safe to say there's something going on when big mainline mainstream religious leaders of very, very large, very influential religious denominations in the United States start talking in terms this stark, start literally talking about martyrdom, start trying to bring their moral force to bear against the behavior and actions of a US President and the US Government that he commands. Tonight here on the show, we're going to speak live with Cardinal Blaise Cupich of Chicago. He is going to be here live in just a minute. Look busy. Tomorrow marks one year since Donald Trump has been back in office for his second term as president. And as we speak tonight, on the eve of that one year anniversary, our allies in Denmark and France and the UK And Germany and Norway and Sweden and the Netherlands and Finland, all of those countries, all our allies, have all sent troops to Greenland to try to protect that island from us. Canada says they may send troops as well because all of NATO is still standing by each other, even if we now appear to have left and crossed over to the other side, potentially threatening war now against NATO. President Trump's bizarre letter to the government of Norway this weekend complaining that him not being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize is reason enough for him to now righteously consider invading Greenland and seizing it for himself. I mean, that was one of the single strangest moments in the history of the American presidency. And it means that America truly, maybe more so than at any other time in the history of our nation, it means that America truly stands alone in the world and for good reason. I mean, who are, who are our real allies now, like Russia, maybe North Korea? I mean, I guess El Salvador, since we might want to use their torture prisons there. Again, I don't know, who do we stand with now? Who would stand with us? These were protests this weekend in Denmark and Copenhagen. Huge protests in Copenhagen. This was one of the largest ever protests in Greenland as well. People there were wearing red hats that said, maga m a g a make America go away. People in Greenland are now making contingency plans in case of a US Invasion. People in Greenland now looking out at ships and fighter jets from our ostensible NATO allies posted up there in defense against the United States, which is threatening to invade and seize that nation while threatening Greenland and NATO. This same president simultaneously is threatening to use the US Military to use active duty US Troops against the American people in Minnesota, as his ragtag paramilitary federal agents continue to run wild in the city of Minneapolis. Reaction against that all around the country continues. There are big protests today on the Martin Luther King holiday in Philadelphia. People marched today in Philly. Also big crowds today marched in Austin, Texas. At the Texas State Capitol there were protests this weekend against Trump and against ICE in Denver, Colorado. At the state Capitol, Colorado, there were protests against ICE and against Trump in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and in Akron, Ohio, and in Boston, Massachusetts. And out in the cold in the snow in Morristown, New Jersey. In Fargo, North Dakota, people turned out this weekend to protest against Trump and ice when it was minus 6 degrees outside. Minus 6 in Fargo for these protests. Protests this weekend against Trump and ICE in Alameda, California, along miles of beach in Alameda. Protests in Portland, Maine this weekend because it is widely expected that Trump's federal agents will mount their next attack in Maine, in Portland and potentially in Lewiston, Maine. And people of Maine are getting ready. This was Minneapolis this weekend where ongoing protests and community response to the thousands of federal agents overrunning that city included one big protest by Minnesota postal workers. ICE out of Minnesota. They're postal workers and so they are very clever. Included this sign in the shape of an envelope. From ICE to Minneapolis, return to sender. ICE out forever is the stamp From ICE care of US Government to Minneapolis, return to sender Minnesota Protests this weekend also included the annual Powderhorn sled races, which look, this is a sled which included this big bottle of de Icer, like windshield de Icer for your car. Also a big container of horchata. I'll take my horchata warm because f ice. And then when the horchata slide sled went, went down the hill. It threw the ice cubes out the top. Get it? Also a bowling ball knocking down a bunch of dictator bowling pins. Trump was right up front as the first dictator bowling pin. They all fell down. Also a flying chick with the chicken having a big whistle to blow to let people know if ICE is present. That's a good one. Protests continuing day and night in Minnesota at the ICE facility in Minneapolis, that federal building there. Literally day and night protests continuing there. We're also seeing continued anti ICE protests at the ICE facility just outside Chicago in Broadview, Illinois. Thinking about these ICE facilities, ice processing facilities, ICE holding facilities. Here's a little bit of a heads up. Something to watch out for. You've all seen, right, ongoing, ongoing protests and occasionally very intense protests at these ICE facilities in places like Broadview, Illinois and in Minneapolis at the ICE facility there. We've seen flashpoint protests at the ICE facility in Newark, New Jersey and the one in Tacoma, Washington. You've seen all that over the course of the past year, right? Well, here's something that we are now noticing. We are now noticing protests in sort of communities in uproar, really big local responses in far flung, out of the way towns all over the country. As ICE now starts to try to use some of the billions of dollars Trump and the Republicans just gave them as they use that money to try to build new facilities and prisons and prison camps all over the country. They have now cited where they want those places to go. They're trying to like repurpose vacant warehouses into prison camps. Everywhere they are trying to do that, they are being pushed back. And oftentimes it doesn't make more than local news. But when you start looking for it, you see it everywhere. Here, for example, is local news coverage from Durant, Oklahoma. Locals there packed a town meeting and the local government in response rushed to pass a brand new ordinance that gives the city of Durant, Oklahoma the power for the first time to say no to a jail or detention facility being put up in their town. They've got a 1.2 million square foot warehouse space that ICE wants to use to build a prison camp. But in red state Oklahoma, this local community, Durant, Oklahoma and the Choctaw Nation which is headquartered quite nearby, they are both very firmly saying no, they will not stand for it. Red state Oklahoma also, look, Roxbury, New Jersey, now New Jersey is a blue state, but Roxbury is pretty much a red town. Roxbury has an all Republican local government. But after locals in Roxbury, New Jersey got word that ICE wanted to use a half million square foot warehouse in their town to put up an ICE prison camp there, locals started protesting like mad. And now the all Republican town council in Roxbury has passed a resolution saying no, you are not going to be allowed to build that here. Hutchins, Texas. In Hutchins, Texas, ICE is trying to build an immigrant prison camp there too. They've got a million square foot vacant warehouse in Hutchins, Texas. Locals have been protesting and now the mayor is coming out firmly and firmly and publicly and saying they are not going to allow ICE to put in a prison camp in Hutchins, Texas either. It is something we do not need in our city and something we do not want. Orange County, New York. Again, New York, a blue state, but Orange county has generally leaned red. Residents of Orange county packing town halls and local public meetings, at least one of which had to be moved to a larger meeting site to accommodate the size of the crowd clamoring to get in. The village board and the mayor and the local Democratic congressman, Pat Ryan, the Republican county executive in Orange, all now saying, no ICE will not be allowed to build a new ICE facility. They will not be allowed to build an ICE prison camp in Orange County, New York. It would be catastrophic for the local community in Missouri. Kansas City, Missouri. ICE said it wanted to build a prison camp there, a huge one to hold 7,500 people. Kansas City, Missouri City Council responded by passing a ban, a five year ban. Any non municipal detention facility cannot be opened in that city for the next five years. That's a resolution introduced by the mayor. The ordinance was passed by the Kansas City, Missouri City Council. No, ice, you cannot come in here and put a prison camp in here. Down to North Mississippi, Bahalia, Mississippi. Locals there this past week protesting at the site where ICE wants to build a prison camp at a vacant warehouse in their town as well. Northern Mississippi saying no to that in Social Circle, Georgia, which is 45 miles east of Atlanta. You see the headline there. Georgia town of 5,000 vows to fight ICE plan to warehouse 9,000. Even local Republican officials, even local Trump supporters saying they will not let ICE turn a vacant warehouse in Social City. Social Center, Georgia, excuse me, Social Circle, Georgia, into a huge immigrant prison camp. People protesting there against it. Get ICE out of Social Circle. Hagerstown, Maryland. They're gonna have a big protest tomorrow in Hagerstown. It'll include, among other people, their U.S. senator, Chris Van Hollen, their congresswoman, April McLean Delaney, protesting tomorrow against ICE's plans to try to build a prison camp in Hagerstown, Maryland as well. Salt Lake City, Utah. People went out in deep, dense, cold fog on Friday morning, visibility just a few feet. They convened at a local site where they'd heard that ICE or federal officials might be coming to inspect a local facility in Salt Lake City to see if it was a place they could put a new ice prison camp. Salt Lake Tribune says like 50 people showed up in this incredibly dense fog to try to be there, to try to show any federal officials who turned up that they were going to face local resistance if they wanted to put in an ICE prison camp in Salt Lake City. The feds didn't brave it. They never showed up Friday morning. But then people in Salt Lake City came out Sunday morning and protested against it anyway, essentially saying, don't you dare try it here. We're not going to stand for it here. No ICE detention camp here. Tonight we're going to talk to an organizer from the successful campaign to get Avelo Airlines to stop flying deportation flights for ice. You'll remember we've been covering protests against Avelo Airlines for months. Avelo is a commercial air carrier that wants to fly people like, you know, on vacation or on business trips while they were simultaneously also chaining up people in shackles and handcuffs and flying them on their planes on deportation flights for ice. People protested all over the country against Avelo for that at every airport they had operations. Peaceful, relentless protests for months to pressure Avelo into stopping, taking money from ice, stopping, helping ICE with their deportations. And you know what? That Avelo campaign succeeded. Avelo Airlines has now announced that they have ended their contract with ice. They are no longer flying their deportation flights. We're going to talk with one of the people involved in that successful protest campaign against Avelo Airlines to ask how they did it. I mean, the Tesla takedown protests worked to get Elon Musk out of the US Government and ultimately to end his Doge thing. The Avelo Airlines protests worked to get them out of deportation flights for ice. And now we are seeing protests all over the country. Anywhere they want to try to put an ICE prison camp in any town of any size in any state, no matter how liberal or how conservative. We're also seeing corporations like Target being pressured to tell ICE to get out of the state where they are headquartered in Minnesota to tell ICE that they cannot stage in Target parking lots or enter Target stores for their operations without a warrant. It we're seeing Home Depots continue to be protested like this one in Phoenix this weekend. Home Depot continuing to face pressure to tell ICE to not use their parking lots, to not use their stores for their operations. We're also seeing protests now in the seat of power in Washington, like this really big one a few days ago at the headquarters of Customs and Border patrol in Washington, D.C. tomorrow on January 20th, we are expecting people all over the country to stage walkouts from their jobs and their schools as a fitting way to mark one year exactly since Trump has been back in power. And this disastrous year since, on this MLK Day, we are seeing Americans bring moral force of every imaginable kind, moral force, bringing it to bear against the attempted overthrow of our system of government and the violence that's being used to try to achieve that moral force, nonviolent moral force and faith, the most powerful things in the world. We got a big show tonight. Cardinal Blay Cupich of Chicago is here with us next live. Stay with us.

[Angie Hicks]

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of angie. And one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. Because with everybody fix, update and renovation, it becomes a little more your own. So you need all your jobs done well. For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter, from plumbing to electrical, roof repair to deck upgrades. So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Hire high quality [e-mail] Close your eyes.

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[Cardinal Blaise Cupich]

While I wish the new administration success in promoting the common good, the reports being circulated of planned mass deportations targeting the Chicago area are not only profoundly disturbing, but also wound us deeply. For members of faith communities, the threatened mass deportation also leaves us with the searing question, what is God telling us in this moment? People of faith are called to speak for the rights of others and to remind society of its obligation to care for those in need. If the indiscriminate mass potation being reported were to be carried out, this would be an affront to the dignity of all people and communities and deny the legacy of what it means to be an American.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

If the indiscriminate mass deportations being reported were to be carried out, this would be an affront to the dignity of all people. Said one year ago tonight, Cardinal Cupich, Cardinal Blaise Cupich, Archbishop of Chicago, eight Months later, Donald Trump launched Operation Midway Blitz in Chicago, sending massive numbers of federal agents to effectively to terrorize that city and hunt immigrants in the streets, hunt immigrants and ultimately hunt their defenders. Cardinal Cupich responded by saying this.

[Cardinal Blaise Cupich]

Families are being torn apart, children are left in fear and communities are shaken by immigration raids and detentions. These actions wound the soul of our city. Let me be clear. The church stands with migrants.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

Weeks later, the U.S. conference of Catholic Bishops made headlines when they issued a statement on behalf of the 200 plus bishops in the U.S. condemning the administration's policy of indiscriminate mass deportation. Cardinal Cupich was a key voice in drafting that statement. He has been outspoken about the moral imperatives of this moment. That was true again today. Today he and two other US cardinals, the Archbishops of Washington D.C. and Newark, released a statement about our country's, quote, moral role in confronting evil around the world. The events in Venezuela, Ukraine and Greenland have raised basic questions about the use of military force and the meaning of peace. The sovereign rights of nations to self determination appear all too fragile in a world of ever greater conflagrations. We renounce war as an instrument for narrow national interests and proclaim that military action must be seen only as a last resort in extreme situations, not a normal instrument of national policy. Joining us now is Cardinal Blaise Cupich. He is the Archbishop of Chicago. Cardinal Cupich, it's a real honor to have you with us tonight. Thank you for making the time to be here.

[Cardinal Blaise Cupich]

Thank you, Rachel. Good to be with you.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

Let me ask you about this statement you and two of your fellow cardinals made today about U.S. foreign policy. Why did you feel compelled to make this statement?

[Cardinal Blaise Cupich]

Well, we were at the consistory with all the other cardinals of the world and we heard voices of great alarm about what was happening in the United States, particularly the breakdown of the consensus that we've had in the world world since World War II about the way that we handle conflicts, the easy turn to war and violence and military action, the sovereignty of nations and the dialogue that must go on with allies in order to solve difficulties. We saw that alarm in the voices and in the expressions of the cardinals from around the world and then several subsequently. Right as we were leaving Rome, the Holy Father gave his talk to the diplomats of the world who are in the Vatican. And he gave us a language to speak to the issues that we believe needed to be addressed, following what we heard from the cardinals around the world.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

Obviously the Church is a nonpartisan institution and we have a secular government and we have the separation of church and state in our country. But the church obviously also speaks with moral force and speaks in some ways on behalf of the millions of Catholics of all different backgrounds in the United States. I wonder if it takes some bravery on your part and the part of your fellow cardinals to speak the way that you are and the way that you have against a secular administration, a government leadership that has had no qualms whatsoever about not only denouncing, but taking as many actions as they can to harm those who criticize them.

[Cardinal Blaise Cupich]

Well, first of all, we're citizens, too. We have a responsibility for the good of the nation and the common good of the world. So there really should not be any hesitation on our part to offer what we can from our own tradition, but also to recall in history how the world has come together since the Second World War in order to solve problems. I'm old enough to have lived in those years post World War II, where I saw the United nations come together, where treaties between allies, especially in NATO, were drafted. When we see that those kinds of ways in which collateralism has been built evaporate. Now, we can speak to those issues from our own experience, but also from the basis of our own moral teaching.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

Cardinal Cupich, we're speaking tonight while you are in Chicago. Obviously, that's your diocese. Chicago has really been through a lot in these last couple of months. I have to ask for your reflections not just on what the government did to put put immigrant communities and immigrants and the people of Chicago broadly in such difficulty over the past few months, but the response of the people of Chicago, your reflections on the way people responded to this influx of federal agents, the mutual aid actions that people took to try to help immigrant families and immigrant communities, and the way people peacefully protested against federal agents trying to stop the mass deportation campaigns that you have condemned.

[Cardinal Blaise Cupich]

Well, I think there was an appreciation of the fact that Chicago is the immigrant city. Even this day in the Catholic Church, we celebrate mass in 26 different languages. So we have our finger on the pulse of what an immigrant community is. And so we have organized from early on legal services for people, ways in which we can support them materially in terms of food and necessary ways in which they can visit hospitals or doctors to give that kind of support. And people have pulled together in order for that to happen. So I'm very proud of that. But I'm not surprised. At the heart of who we are in Chicago, here is a deep appreciation of our immigrant roots.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

Cardinal Blaise Cupich, Archbishop of Chicago. Sir, it is an honor to have you with us here this evening. Cable news. Talking with somebody of your position in the church is a very rare thing, and I'm conscious of what an honor this is. Thank you, sir.

[Cardinal Blaise Cupich]

Well, I hope it's maybe the first of other chances we can get together.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

Me too. Thank you, sir. All right, more news ahead here tonight. Stay with us.

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[Show Host/Interviewer]

It's a small airline. It's called Avelo, a V E L O this year. We've talked about it a whole bunch on this show because we took note, fairly early in this Trump administration's first year, we took note that all over the country, people were starting to protest this little airline. It's really not a high profile thing. It mostly serves smaller airports, places like New Haven, Connecticut or Santa Rosa, California. But when Trump came back to the White House, Avella decided they would make money by working with the Trump administration to fly deportation flights in addition to all the commercial flights they were offering to retail passengers. That combination translated into a lot of protests against Avelo because, honestly, it's kind of a tough sell, right? You know, fly us to Key west for vacation and pay no attention to the waist chains and shackles we're also using to fly other passengers to legal black hole prison camps. For months, people protested against Avelo Airlines at more and more airports across the country. Last summer, we reported that Avelo had decided to pull out of airports in California, Nevada, Oregon, Washington State, and also Montana. They. They shut down all of their west coast routes, saying the decision had nothing to do with the protests at all. But then on the east coast, we saw the state of Connecticut cut off some state subsidies for Ovelo because it was carrying ICE prisoners on deport lights. After that, Avello pulled out of the airport in Hartford, Connecticut as well. At the end of October, 13,000 petitions were delivered to the Governor of Maryland calling on him to cancel Maryland state contracts with Avello, calling on Avello to be banned from BWI from Baltimore Washington International Airport. Month by month, protest by protest, petition by petition, from Baltimore to Hartford to Rochester, New York, to Wilmington, Delaware, to Burbank, California, Daytona Beach, Florida. Everywhere, Americans kept the pressure on Avelo in a million different ways. The airline was clearly feeling the pressure, and we know that because guess what? Avelo Airlines has now announced that they are ending their deportation flights. They are ending their work with ice. The airline saying in a statement that the deportation flights, quote, did not deliver enough consistent and predictable revenue to overcome its operational complexity and costs. We know a lot about what some of those costs were. In less than a year, Avelo Airlines went from enthusiastically signing up to run deportation flights for Trump to make some extra cash to having to shut down multiple routes and pull out of multiple airports to getting out of the deportation flight business altogether. This is a victory, a very clear victory for the coalition of everyday Americans who decided to take this on, who decided they would pressure this airline to get out of Trump's deportation business. They did it, and it worked. And it is worth understanding exactly how they did it. One of the organizers joins us next. Refuse inevitability. Refuse inevitability. Nothing is inevitable. The company, Avelo Airlines, has now stopped providing deportation flights for ICE in the Trump administration. That's a decision that follows months of protests pushing Avello to do just that. When the organizers, some of the organizers of that effort to push Avello to make this decision learned that they had won when Avello made its announcement that it was quitting ice, two of the organizers who had supported that protest campaign wrote a sort of online explainer about how they did it and what they learned in the process. They said, in part, quote, more than anything, this campaign proves the fragility of the system. ICE and the security forces of this current government are not invulnerable. This win proves what happens when we Refuse inevitability and fight together. That lesson is dangerous to any system that survives on our silence and our resignation to the idea that we can't change anything, because we can, and we did. And there's more to come. Joining us now is Umi Hak, one of the authors of that piece. She does trainings at Defend and Recruit, which is an immigrant defense network that one of the many groups that supported this successful campaign to get Avelo Airlines to stop working with ice. Ms. Hawk, it's nice to meet you. Thanks very much for being here.

[Commercial Voice/Advertiser]

Thanks for having me. And thanks for all your incredible coverage of this campaign. It's just. Yeah, it's a joy to be here.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

Well, let me ask you about the campaign. It seemed to me covering it from the outside like this started bubbling up sort of organically when people did their own research, did their own work, and realized what Avelo was doing, maybe while they were also flying commercial flights at their local region regional airport. What were the origins of this and how did it coalesce into something sort of more cohesive?

[Commercial Voice/Advertiser]

Yeah, this campaign really did begin because people started noticing something that they definitely didn't want us to notice. Deportation flights usually take place in the shadows. They're hidden from anyone knowing about them. But then some local organizers in Connecticut realized that Avelo, which branded itself as a hometown, a hometown brand, had signed a contract to actually take these flights. And they. So they started some local organizing, and there was a handful of protests across the country, and they launched this incredible boycott petition and called on all of us to boycott with them as well. And that caught attention of us at Sembro, North Carolina, and our defendant Accrue Brand. A coalition started forming together of the groups called the Stop of Ello Coalition. Other groups started getting involved, like Mahente. And then we started digging into it more, and it became really obvious that that Avello was a public company that had a brand customers, public funding, and they were on a quest for more funding. And it wasn't only in the state of Connecticut, where actual citizens and taxpayers were actually paying for these flights because of subsidies. And so we realized that that made them an especially important and especially vulnerable target and started all working together to be able to leverage different strategies to be able to really affect this pillar of support on ISIS deportation regime and eventually win this outcome together.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

You say an important and vulnerable target. Important in the sense that obviously ICE was using Avelo. They don't necessarily need Avelo. But how does a campaign like this target or weaken the overall ICE deportation scheme that you're opposed to.

[Commercial Voice/Advertiser]

Yeah. We know that ICE depends on pillars of support that make it possible for ICE to be able to do anything. Being able to take passengers on an aircraft and kidnapping people and putting people on those flights is one of those ways of being able to do that. And so noticing that this company was a public company that had signed on for these flights, had said they had done it for financial reasons, that they were doing it for the money, and then also seeing that we would be able to not only could, we could only not only affect this company, but also send a signal to any company or corporation that that's thinking about doing business with ICE or doing business with ICE to show the resistance that's possible and that will be mobilized and organized if these contracts are taken allowed that it was. That's why we say it's especially important and especially vulnerable as well.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

Important in the sense that public that important in the sense that its actions are key to what ICE is able to do. Vulnerable in the sense that it's got public facing needs that are visible to its opponents as well as to its potential customers. Umi Hawk, defend and recruit Immigrant Defense network that supported this pressure campaign on Avelo Airlines. A successful campaign, Ms. Hawk. Please stay in touch. I'd be really interested to hear about what you and your colleagues are working on next. I think this is a really important signal campaign that you were part of.

[Commercial Voice/Advertiser]

Yeah, absolutely. And if folks are looking to get more involved, now is the time to get involved with organizing around immigration defense. And there's resources and tools on our website around other corporations that are enabling ice, other ways that you can get involved in these coalition efforts. The fight doesn't stop now. We really do need to refuse inevitability. And now is the time, especially if you're not an immigrant yourself, to get involved in campaigns and protests and organizing so that we can turn outrage into action and then action into actual power.

[Show Host/Interviewer]

Umihawk, thank you very much. All right, we'll be right back. Stay with us. One last thing. Thursday morning, 10:00am Eastern, Jack Smith is going to testify in Congress about his investigation into Trump's efforts to overthrow the US government and overturn the results of the 2020 election. Mississippi now is going to have live coverage of that Thursday morning when Jack Smith testifies live. But then Thursday night, we're going to have special coverage. I'm going to be there along with Nicole Wallace and Lawrence O' Donnell and a whole bunch of our Ms. Now colleagues. Thursday night, 8pm Eastern. I will see you there. The whole gang's gonna be there Thursday night. All right, that does it for me for now.

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[Narrator/Host]

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[Narrator/Host]

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[Commercial Voice/Advertiser]

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[Angie Hicks]

Nice.

[Narrator/Host]

A cozy retreat, man. Cozy retreat, sir.

[Commercial Voice/Advertiser]

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