Rachel Maddow (1:31)

The special counsel makes his case.

Jack Smith (1:34)

You are correct that the only person charged in this case was Donald Trump. Who was the person most culpable for.

Lawrence O'Donnell (1:39)

The crimes charged tonight?

Ari Melber (1:42)

Rachel Maddow, Chris Haynes, Jen Psaki, Lawrence.

Rachel Maddow (1:45)

O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule, Ari Melber, Andrew Weissman, and an exclusive interview with a ranking Democrat, Jamie Raskin.

Ari Melber (1:52)

For us, it's all about the rule of law. Mississippi.

Rachel Maddow (1:55)

NOW's special report on the Jack Smith testimony begins now. Good evening and thank. Thank you so much for being with us tonight. I'm Rachel Maddow here at the MSNow mothership in New York along with some of my very favorite people in the world. Lawrence o' Donnell is here. Chris Hayes is here. Ari Melber is here. And you wouldn't know it from the cold open like my childhood, but Nicole was here. Even though you didn't, you inexplicably did not get mentioned in the cold open. I'm very sorry.

Nicole Wallace (2:27)

I feel. Yeah, well, I'm happy to be here. I am here. It's not a hologram. It's me.

Rachel Maddow (2:32)

You get to be Here double, triple time. You get extra passes to be here whenever you want. Were randomly left out of that. All right, we are gonna be joined in the course of this special coverage tonight by additional colleagues, Jen Psaki, Stephanie Rule Moore. The gang's all here, especially Nicole. But the reason we are all here tonight together is for a special primetime recap of the historic hearing that took place in Washington today with Jack Smith, the special counsel who brought 44 felony charges against the man who is now the sitting President of the States. As special counsel, Jack Smith operated independently within the US Department of Justice. He and his team of prosecutors and FBI agents investigated Donald Trump. They investigated his efforts to overthrow the US Government to try to get the results of the election he lost, thrown out so he could stay in power anyway. They then investigated his handling of classified information after he left office. But of course, in the American mind, the culmination of Donald Trump's efforts that were investigated by Jack Smith were these images. The violent attack by Trump's supporters on the United states Capitol. On January 6, 2021, under Jack Smith's leadership, a grand jury brought four felony charges against Trump in the case to overthrow the US Government and stay in power after he lost reelection. A second federal grand jury brought an additional 40 felony charges against him in the classified documents case for taking huge amounts of highly classified material with him after he left office in alleged violation of, among other things, the Espionage Act. I mean, just spelling this all out, saying these words right now, it never stops being astonishing that the person facing those kinds of felony charges was nevertheless elevated by the Republican Party to become their nominee for president of the United States, Espionage act and all, but he was their nominee and he won the general election. And the federal felony criminal charges that Jack Smith and his team brought against Donald Trump were never heard in court. And today, for the first time, Jack Smith testified in an open hearing in Congress about his work, about the evidence his team developed against the man who is now the sitting president. As Smith remarked several times today, there is no analog for this in US History. Nothing like this has ever happened before. And this historic hearing today didn't disappoint. That said, it did happen starting at 10am Eastern. It happened right in the middle of the workday or in the middle of the school day. So even though this was a big, important deal, you may very well have missed it. There's no shame in that. Whether or not you were able to catch some or all of it live, though, we wanted to do this primetime recap, basically as our public service to you. So whether or not you were able to watch any of it, you will not have missed a thing. All right. Today's hearing started with Jack Smith making clear the stakes of the crimes that he investigated, the stakes of that investigation being shut down, and the stakes of the punishment that Trump and his Republican loyalists have since pursued against Jack Smith and against everyone in law enforcement who has tried to hold the line against Trump's crimes.

Jack Smith (6:10)

After nearly 30 years of public service, including in international settings, I have seen how the rule of law can erode. My fear is that we have seen the rule of law function in our country for so long that many of us have come to take it for granted. The rule of law is not self executing. It depends on our collective commitment. To apply requires dedicated service on behalf of others, especially when that service is difficult and comes with costs. Our willingness to pay those costs is what tests and defines our commitment to the rule of law and to this wonderful country.

Rachel Maddow (6:57)

Our willingness to pay those costs, especially when that service is difficult and comes with costs. That was as much a theme today as any other, both in terms of the conduct of Jack Smith's investigation and the repercussions since. Since all of it has been very much dominated by the willingness, the eagerness of this president and his supporters to do harm, to even do violence to anyone who opposes Donald Trump or tries to stop him from committing what Jack Smith clearly, again and again and again today described as crimes. Mr. Smith, if your case had gone.

Becca Balint (7:37)

To trial, would the evidence from Georgia.

Rachel Maddow (7:40)

Have helped prove that President Trump knowingly engaged in a criminal scheme to overturn the 2020 election?

Jack Smith (7:48)

Yes. After an investigation following the facts in the law, we believed we had proof beyond a reasonable doubt to prove those charges. Rather than accept his Defeat in the 2020 election, President Trump engaged in a criminal scheme to overturn the results and prevent the lawful transfer of power. Our investigation developed proof beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump engaged in criminal activity. We followed the facts and we followed the law. Where that led us to was to an indictment of an unprecedented criminal scheme to block the peaceful transfer of power. But you are correct that the only person charged in this case was Donald Trump. Who, in my estimation, was the person most culpable for the crimes charged.

Rachel Maddow (8:33)

You know, it was the Republicans who agreed to this hearing. They agreed that this should be in public and on television. And, you know, it's possible they're only watching right wing pro Trump news. And so they haven't heard much about what Jack Smith actually did in his investigation. They may not know much about who he actually is and how he speaks. I don't know why Republicans agreed to do this today, but I'm guessing they did not expect that Jack Smith would just spell it out like this, so clearly. Spell it out. The evidence he found and the conclusions that he drew about the president's criminal behavior.

Becca Balint (9:14)

Did your investigation find that Donald Trump attempted to manufacture fraudulent state slates of presidential electors in seven states that he lost?

Jack Smith (9:27)

Yes.

Becca Balint (9:28)

Did he pressure state officials to ignore true vote counts in those states?

Jack Smith (9:35)

Yes.

Becca Balint (9:36)

Did he spread lies and conspiracies to his followers to make them believe that the election had been illegally rigged against him?

Jack Smith (9:45)

Yes.

Becca Balint (9:46)

Did he pressure DOJ officials to stop the certification of the election?

Ari Melber (9:53)

He did.

Becca Balint (9:53)

Did he pressure his own Vice president, Mike Pence, to stop the certification against the oath of office that he had sworn to the Constitution?

Jack Smith (10:02)

He did.

Becca Balint (10:03)

And when all of this didn't work, did he, Donald Trump, motivate and inspire an angry mob to the US Capitol to stop the certification?

Jack Smith (10:15)

Our proof showed that he caused what happened on January 6, that it was foreseeable, and that he exploited that violence.

Becca Balint (10:24)

Did Donald Trump know that his allegations of election fraud were lies when he spread them?

Jack Smith (10:30)

Our proof was that he did, and we intended to prove that at trial.

Rachel Maddow (10:35)

Our evidence said he did. We intended to prove it at trial. There was plenty of explanation today about how they would have proved it at trial, including an unexpected invocation of Martians, thanks to a remark from Republican Senator Lindsey Graham quoted here in terms of the grand jury testimony that's now been released. The fact that Donald Trump, according to Senator Graham, would believe that Marshan stole the election, what does that tell you about Trump's state of mind?

Jack Smith (11:12)

That that statement is consistent with what we found in our investigation. In that our investigation revealed that Donald Trump was not looking for honest answers about whether there was fraud in the election. He was looking for ways to stay in power. And when people told him things that conflicted with him staying in power, he rejected them. Or he chose not even to contact people like that who would know if the election was done properly in the state. On the other hand, when individuals would say things that would allow him to stay in power, no matter how fantastical, he would latch onto those. That pattern over time, we felt, was powerful evidence that he, in fact, knew that the fraud claims he was making were false.

Rachel Maddow (12:06)

He intended to stay in power even though he knew that the claims he was making were false. And he was willing to obstruct justice and intimidate witnesses to do it which special counsel Jack Smith was able to explain even to this somewhat bewildered Virginia Republican congressman, a man named Ben Klein. Did you have any evidence that President.

Andrew Weissman (12:30)

Trump's statements about the cases against him intimidated witnesses or prevented them from coming forward?

Jack Smith (12:36)

I had evidence that he said, if you come after me, I'm coming after you. He asked. He suggested a witness should be put to death. The courts found that those sort of statements not only deter witnesses who've come forward, they deter witnesses who have yet to come forward.

Rachel Maddow (12:52)

But you weren't able to identify a single witness who, who didn't come forward because they were intimidated by President Trump.

Jack Smith (12:58)

We had extremely thorough evidence that his statements were having an effect on the proceedings. That is not permitted in any court of law in the United States.

Rachel Maddow (13:10)

That is not permitted in any court of law in the United States. Which puts a very fine point on the fact of how lucky it is for Donald Trump that these cases never made it into a court of law for a trial. In this primetime recap of tonight's hearing, we are going to go through some of the conspiracy theories that Republican members of Congress raised in the room, including a wild one that maybe the key to making this all go away is that maybe Jack Smith wasn't sworn in right when he took his oath of office. He's left handed. So maybe it was the. That'll do it. We'll talk about tonight about Republicans perhaps inadvertently cutting the knees out from their own criticism of Jack Smith, getting phone records about the alleged co conspirators in the case calling members of Congress in their actions today, they undercut that allegation they were simultaneously making in the hearing. We're gonna talk about Republican Congressman Troy Nels baiting and sniping at the police officers who were in the room today, causing a disruption in the room, causing some choice swearing. We're gonna get to all of that tonight. Congressman Jamie Raskin is gonna be joining us live here tonight. He pulled a rabbit out of a hat at the very, very end of the hearing. As Jim Jordan was trying to gavel the hearing to a close, Jamie Raskin jumped in and sprung something on everyone. It apparently means that we may hear from Jack Smith again. That was much to the surprise of the Republicans today when they learned that live and in the moment from Jamie Raskin, as we all did watching it on tv. So we're gonna talk with Congressman Raskin about that coming up. But I will just finish with this and then we're gonna hear from everybody. To my mind, if you only took away One thing from the hearing today, it was this next exchange between Jack Smith and a Vermont congresswoman named Becca Bolland. It was an exchange about basically what it means to be Jack Smith right now in 2026, to have done the investigation that he did, to have found what he found, to have served your country by sticking to your guns, even when that meant the leader of the United States government is, and his party and his supporters would try to destroy you for it.

Becca Balint (15:27)

Trump has said that you, Mr. Smith, should be investigated and put in prison. He called you a disgrace to humanity, a radical left, Marxist, a criminal. In fact, Trump has used the words deranged Jack Smith 185 times on truth Social. How do you think that these statements have impacted you, your staff, and your investigation?

Jack Smith (15:56)

With respect to me, I think the reports. I'm sorry, the statements are meant to intimidate me. I will not be intimidated. I think these statements are also made as a warning to others what will happen if they stand up. And I am, as I say, I'm not going to be intimidated. We did our work pursuant to department policy. We followed the facts and we followed the law. And that process resulted in proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed serious crimes. I'm not going to pretend that didn't happen because he's threatening me.

Becca Balint (16:32)

And, Mr. Smith, do you believe that President Trump's Department of Justice will find some way to indict you?

Jack Smith (16:41)

I believe they will do everything in their power to do that because they've been ordered to by the president.

Rachel Maddow (16:48)

Jack Smith, I will not be intimidated. I'm not going to pretend those serious crimes didn't happen just because he's threatening me. As I said before, I will not be intimidated. Nicole Wallace, what did you take from this hearing today?

Nicole Wallace (17:04)

Well, what I took from my own reaction was that this was so extraordinary. But before Trump destroyed the Department of Justice, there were hundreds of Jack Smiths inside the Department of Justice. He was the archetype of the kind of person who chose that life instead of, you know, being a partner at Paul Weiss and having multiple houses and occasionally flying private. I mean, this is what DOJ was made of. So what I thought about was how successful Trump's been in moving the Overton window, that I watched this with a lump in my throat, thinking about nostalgically about what the department was. The other thing I thought of was he's the most senior Justice Department official to defend what we kind of shorthand as rank and file, but the people that have been purged from the Justice Department were the best of the best. The most senior prosecutors, the most senior FBI agents who have been pilloried, reputationally threatened, legally faced death threats by and large, if they've been named and outed and smeared in the right wing press and they have hollowed out the Department of Justice. Merrick Garland hasn't defended those people. Lisa Monaco hasn't defended those people. Joe Biden hasn't defended those people. Today, Jack Smith, right after that clip you played, described the real danger in the threats and efforts to intimidate him to his team. And he really defended the integrity of the work they did. And I think some of what sinks in when you watch this is that we're all here today because this is extraordinary. We all know that this doesn't happen inside the Justice Department. No one says what he said today to the public in that Congress, to Pam Bondi or Todd Blanche or Emile Bobe. And if they did, if Danielle Sassoon or Liz Oyer or any of those people did, they've been asked to leave.

Rachel Maddow (18:53)

That's right. Which is the dark and terrible side of the Justice Department professional ethic that says if you are asked to do something unprofessional or wrong, you resign. We have seen resigning like whole forests of them falling all at once. And what it means is that the Justice Department, as you say, doesn't have those folks in it anymore.

Nicole Wallace (19:15)

That's right. And what is so, I think painful about this is not that just Jack Smith's work that he did on behalf of, not a president, not a party, but on behalf of the country. He worked for the country. He was a taxpayer funded prosecutor who came out of a different post to do this extraordinary job at a point in time when there was literally nothing to be gained. And as he stated at the end, he faces threats and harm and he's all but certain he will be indicted. They will attempt to prosecute him, because Donald Trump wants them to, that not only did he not succeed in bringing a case, he knew he could prove beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury that he will be punished for it.

Rachel Maddow (19:56)

Yeah, Chris.

Lawrence O'Donnell (19:58)

Yeah, I, like Nicole, also felt like I was watching this human embodiment of all that's been lost and all that is crucial and central to really the entire functioning of American democracy.

Andrew Weissman (20:09)

Like the, the.

Lawrence O'Donnell (20:10)

This kind of a person who's a serious, smart, capable person devoted to public service, who is doing their work without fear or favor.

Rachel Maddow (20:16)

Yeah.

Lawrence O'Donnell (20:17)

Which they really want to destroy. I mean, they're quite explicit about that.

Jack Smith (20:20)

Right.

Lawrence O'Donnell (20:20)

They want to turn it into The US Government into basically, Tammany hall with nukes. They want. They want to. They want a complete machine that's also like the global superpower, where, like, everyone has a job because you gave Donald Trump some money or, you know him.

Ari Melber (20:35)

Right.

Lawrence O'Donnell (20:35)

And this is like the ultimate rebuke today.

Rachel Maddow (20:37)

And what you do with your job is serve the machine.

Lawrence O'Donnell (20:39)

Yeah.

Chris Hayes (20:39)

Don't forget, Tammany hall also tried to do some good things.

Lawrence O'Donnell (20:43)

You're right, actually. You are actually correct that Tammy hall is actually.

Nicole Wallace (20:46)

We're in Lauren's defense.

Ari Melber (20:48)

You are.

Lawrence O'Donnell (20:48)

No, that is actually an important and good point.

Rachel Maddow (20:50)

Like pothole film.

Lawrence O'Donnell (20:51)

They actually did do it. Yeah. You know, the second thing, I mean, the other very lukewarm take. I have it, it's like, boy, it really. I mean, he was guilty as hell, and it was a real mistake. We elected him again. The final thing I thought was just watching it, the sort of optics take a step back, is like someone used this term that we're in the midst of a clicktatorship.

Rachel Maddow (21:07)

Yeah.

Lawrence O'Donnell (21:08)

This sense that everything they're doing, the Trump administration, is spectacle, this sort of spectacle of menace that when an ICE officer actually shoots and kills an American citizen in her car, he has to move the cell phone from his hand to the other hand so he could keep recording as he shoots her. Because the generation of content is so important. Today we got reporting that when Charlie Kirk was killed, Kash Patel inside the FBI, the first thing he was concerned about was what he tweet. And coordinating with Dan Bongino about what he could tweet, that he wanted to tweet pictures from Windsor Castle with his girlfriend that actually would expose MI5 agents. This is all New York Times Magazine today, this obsession with spectacle. And here's Jack Smith as, like, the ultimate opposite of that. Right. Like a sober, solemn, serious person facing down this kind of carnival of absurdity that has now become, again. And that's always been part of politics hearings, as you will attest. Right. They're always theatrical. Theatricality is part of politics. I have no problem with that. I talk for a living. But what is totally absent is any sense of seriousness or moral compass right now in the government we have. And here's this person who just feels like this, like, archeological find from another era.

Rachel Maddow (22:17)

Totally. Yeah. I mean, the aesthetic of it, asceticism is. Stoicism is itself serious part of the message. Ari.

Ari Melber (22:25)

Jack Smith's headline today was Donald Trump belongs in prison.

Chris Hayes (22:29)

Yeah.

Ari Melber (22:30)

That he had the evidence that the case was moving forward, that he could prove it. Beyond a reasonable doubt, even Republicans seem to acknowledge that he is a strong and aggressive prosecutor, which is what prosecutors are supposed to be. Donald Trump belongs in prison. That's really something for the country to still see and hear from this person. Second, to echo others, Jack Smith is a sober guy in a drunk bar at 1am he stands out more that way. And our job is to try to make sense of this. And you just presented some of those key highlights. People can take it in. People can go online later tonight, tomorrow, watch more. What I saw there on the scale of public servants was an especially sober, fair person. If someone was watching and they're super political and they wanted to see him spar and rebut every type of Republican question that was a little leading or a little over here. He didn't do that. Why didn't he do that? Because that's not who he is. But they need to discredit him because even with the case closed, he still comes off very credible.

Rachel Maddow (23:33)

Yes. And more of the case is gonna come out if volume two of his report is unsealed by the court. And a lot of people argue that part of the reason this whole hearing might have happened today was to try to muddy him up before the. Before the country gets a whole new dose of information based on the evidence that he gathered.

Chris Hayes (23:50)

Well, you know, for me, whenever I'm watching congressional hearings, I mourn for the day when they actually used to work. So one thing that was on display was the decline and fall of the congressional hearing. We used to have hearings like this in which both sides were actually trying to find the truth. The Watergate hearings were the example of this. There was a certain slight amount of Republican defensiveness for Richard Nixon through the beginning of the Watergate hearings. But as the evidence mounted, members responded to the evidence. And what you saw today was this utterly nonsensical display that there's no amount of evidence that could ever be proof to any Republican on that committee of anything. And this is where Donald Trump is not to blame for Donald Trump. There could be no Donald Trump without those people. Those are the people, the Republicans in Congress. They are the people who gave this country Donald Trump. They are the people who decided, we're not just going to tolerate him, we are going to try to become him. And so what you saw today were Donald Trump's best students, students in Trumpian lying. They just think they can go into a committee hearing and lie and lie and lie. And during our lifetimes, that was absolutely impossible. If you got caught in a hearing in The Senate of the House saying something that could be proved to be untrue during the hearing, which was hard before the Internet.

Rachel Maddow (25:24)

But if that could happen, if that.

Chris Hayes (25:26)

Could happen, that would be the end of that person on that committee. The chair would go to the speaker and say, we gotta get him off of this. He can't be here for this. And so here we are. The enabling party of Donald Trump was on display today.

Rachel Maddow (25:41)

Yeah, I couldn't help but think that back in the day, if you were like a kid who, you know, like, played hooky from school to watch a congressional hearing, you could pretty much assume that that kid someday was going to become a congressional staffer or run for Congress. Like it was that kind of nerd. Dom, any kid watching this today is definitely never going to run for Congress. This is like whatever the opposite of an advertisement is, a good line of work.

Chris Hayes (26:04)

Famous Moynihan quote of you're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. He would say that in a Senate hearing approximately once a year because he would be pushed to the point of saying that exactly once a year. That's how much we accepted the same facts and then argued off of the same facts in those days.

Rachel Maddow (26:25)

All right, we got much more to get to tonight during our special coverage. Our special recap of Special counsel Jack Smith's public testimony, including our exclusive interview with the ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, Congressman Jamie Roskin. Stay right with me, us. Don't go anywhere.

Jack Smith (26:42)

Our assessment of the evidence is that he is the person most responsible for what happened on January 6. He caused what happened. It was foreseeable to him. And then when it happened, he tried to exploit it in furtherance of the conspiracy.

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Unlock exclusive discounts and more. Great brands, great prices. That's why you Rack. When he wrapped up his work last year, special counsel Jack Smith filed a report on each of the two big cases he had brought against Donald Trump. Volume one was the election case, about the allegations that Trump tried to overturn the 2020 election. That report, volume one, it's 174 pages. If you include the introductory letter, it's terrific reading, very well written. I recommend it. Then there's volume two, which I cannot show you. Volume two isn't the election case. It's the other case that Smith investigated. It's the one that covers Trump hoarding classified material in Mar? A Lago. Classified material he should not have taken with him when he left office. I can't show you volume two because volume two has not been released to the public. It remains under seal by court order. There was, in fact, some speculation that one of the reasons Republicans might have agreed to this hearing today is because they hope to draw Jack Smith into some trouble by maybe provoking him to violate that court order to talk about that case and that report. Or maybe they just wanted to muddy Jack Smith up so that the country and the public thinks poorly of him before. I think inevitably the court rules that that report must be released and we get to see a whole new trench of evidence against Donald Trump. Anyway, it ended up being quite interesting today when it wasn't necessarily Republicans who really harped on the issue of volume two in that other case. Democrats brought it up instead, including in this moment with once again, Congresswoman Becca Balint of Vermont.

Becca Balint (30:10)

I understand that the District Judge Aileen Cannon, the Trump appointee who oversaw the case in Florida, issued a gag order that prevent you from discussing any parts of the classified documents investigation that is not already public. I understand that. Including your findings that you laid out in volume two of that report. Am I correct that the reason your report is not available in full to the public is because of this gag order?

Jack Smith (30:37)

I. I wrote a report, the attorney general. It was submitted to him. I understand generally that there's been litigation about whether this report would be public or not. I have not been a party to that litigation. I just know that there is an order and I know the Department of Justice, the Current Department of Justice has interpreted that order in a way that I cannot speak about anything that could possibly be in that report and its findings.

Becca Balint (31:06)

And when Judge Cannon issued that gag order, she cited pending cases against Trump's co defendant, is that correct?

Jack Smith (31:13)

I'm sorry?

Becca Balint (31:14)

When Judge Cannon issued the gag order, she cited pending cases against Trump's co defendants, is that correct?

Jack Smith (31:22)

That's my recollection.

Becca Balint (31:23)

Are those cases still pending?

Jack Smith (31:25)

No, they're not.

Becca Balint (31:27)

No, they're not. So there is no reason from where I sit for this important information to be not made public.

Rachel Maddow (31:36)

If the justification for not making that report public is there's still pending cases against Trump's co defendants, well, now there's no pending cases against Trump's co defendants, so why not release that report? Joining us now is former FBI general counsel and Ms. Now legal analyst Andrew Weissman. Andrew, it's nice to see you. Thanks for being with us.

Andrew Weissman (31:55)

Nice to be here.

Rachel Maddow (31:57)

What was your reaction overall to the hearing today?

Andrew Weissman (32:01)

You know, I was thinking about it from an international perspective, given that the prime Minister of Canada, you know, just the other day, said we can't fool ourselves anymore. We can't pretend that this is normal. There has been a rupture in the international order and that international law has been violated and the United States is the aggressor. And we have to deal with that reality. And now we have Jack Smith testifying publicly for the first time about sort of on and on about domestic law being violated in all sorts of ways. And it's hard not to put the two together and see this real rupture in the rule of law both here and how we act abroad. And we're seeing it play out, whether we're talking about Venezuela or Greenland or domestically where we think that the military might be called out to invade a blue state of the United States of America. And so, yes, there's a part of nostalgia when you see what is happening. But I also feel like Mark Carney, the prime Minister of Canada, really was correct in saying we have to deal with this new reality both here, domestically and abroad.

Rachel Maddow (33:31)

And I hear the melancholy in your voice as you explain that. I know that the not just the rule of law, but the Justice Department in particular is a big part of your life and a big part of your understanding about the right way to live in this world and to do right by what this country stands for. Andrew, all my colleagues want to ask you other questions about this, too. I have one just quick one that I want to ask you is that, and it's sort of a political one. I think that Republicans, a lot of people expected that Republicans thought they might be able to trip up Jack Smith today. They might be able to get him to violate the court order sealing that all the information about that the classified documents case. They might be able to get him on a false statements sort of trap. They might be able to get him to, you know, inadvertently disclose grand jury information, some other thing that they could get him in trouble for. They could come up with some excuse for giving a referral to the Justice Department, get him prosecuted. Did they lay any sort of glove on him on any issue like that today?

Andrew Weissman (34:30)

Well, Rachel, that concern is one that is well taken given what has happened with respect to Jerome Powell, what happened with James Comey, the idea that they're going to try and come up with any discrepancy where you don't say exactly the right thing and say it's an intentional lie. And so I can understand that concern. I don't think they did lay a glove on on him. It doesn't mean that there won't be repercussions for the same reason that we have seen the same happen with respect to the Fed chair and the former FBI director. I think one thing to note that is important in terms of sort of behind the scenes here is that sitting behind Jack Smith were two senior lawyers from Covington and Burling. They're to be commended because there are not a lot of law firms now that are willing to do that and willing to take the heat and to stand up for the rule of law. That is remarkable. And it needs to be sort of called out and called out when people do stand up. But sort of that crumbling of the rule of law is not something that is happening really behind the scenes here. And it's very hard as many people know to find counsel who are willing to stand up. As Jack Smith said in his opening, as you quoted Rachel, the rule of law is not self executing and it is law firms like Covington that deserve credit for, you know, making sure that Jack Smith is extremely well prepared so that there aren't any slip ups that people could take advantage of.

Rachel Maddow (36:17)

Hear, hear.

Lawrence O'Donnell (36:18)

Yeah, Andrew, it's Chris. I professionally keep apprised of various MAGA right wing theories stories. You know, they made a big deal about the phone records of US Senators and we'll talk about that a little later. The oath of office thing I had not really gotten a lot of. And can you. So I was a little like what's the deal here that he wasn't ever really the special counselor or something. Is there any sometimes like Will Trump will say a thing and it turns out when you get to the end of it, there's some little kernel of maybe a thing.

Rachel Maddow (36:49)

But I.

Lawrence O'Donnell (36:49)

Do you have anything on that, on the oath of office thing, what, what they're on about?

Andrew Weissman (36:53)

I do. I do not. But it obviously is, is made up theory. I mean, just remember we've had presidents of the United States have to take the oath of office twice because, you know, not all of the exact words were said. I mean, one thing that has been publicly reported by Carol Lanig is it is the only speculation I have is it is worth remembering that when Jack Smith started, when he was, you know, technically first the special counsel, he was overseas because he was working on the International Criminal Court. And it may be that in connection with taking the oath sort of remotely, that there was some snafu or they thought that he needed to repeat it, what he eventually got here in the United States. But that's just speculation on my part. You know, that's not going to change the facts. I mean, to me there was so much nibbling around the edges here where it's like, let's talk about the phone records. Let's talk about when you took the oath of office. Let's talk about how much money you spent. All of that has nothing to do with false claims about fraud in the election. It has nothing to do about the serious crimes and attack on the Capitol. It has nothing to do with the president pardoning people who attacked the Capitol. I mean, all of those really went completely unrebutted. And you spent so much time with the publican side on really trying to distract from core key factual information.

Rachel Maddow (38:27)

Yeah. It's almost like somebody found out that there was like a misspelling on your birth certificate, say, or whatever that would mean you don't exist. That's great. Former FBI general counsel Andrew Weissman. We really appreciate you being here tonight, Andrew, and all my. Thank you.

Andrew Weissman (38:40)

You're welcome.

Rachel Maddow (38:41)

All right. Coming into the hearing today, Jack Smith had every reason to expect that Republicans on the committee would try to trip him up, try to muddy him up, certainly, and make his day as miserable as possible. In nearly five hours of testimony, it's not at all clear that Republicans did score any of the points they were hoping for. A little bit of a look at how Jack Smith responded. Some of their best efforts to try to get him just after the break.

Jack Smith (39:07)

One thing I want to be clear about today, the case that I investigated in the case we had. It was built to be tried in a courtroom, not in the media. Our case was built to withstand the crucible of litigation. And our assessment was that we had proof beyond a reasonable doubt that would do that.

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Rachel Maddow (40:00)

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Jamie Raskin (40:34)

We were collecting months worth of phone data on the Republican speaker of the House, the leader of the opposition, right after he got sworn in as speaker, all around the time of a major vote. That sounds like a flagrant violation of the speech or debate clause to me. And I think most people agree with me. And Speaker McCarthy had no recourse, did he? Because you issued a non disclosure order ensuring that neither he nor any of the American people knew about these subpoenas, is that right?

Jack Smith (41:04)

The toll record, the non contact toll record subpoenas. We did secure non disclosure orders for those subpoenas.

Jamie Raskin (41:11)

You did. And let me ask you, Mr. Smith, at the time you, you secured those non disclosure orders, was Speaker McCarthy a flight risk?

Jack Smith (41:19)

The non disclosure order was based on concerns about.

Jamie Raskin (41:23)

Was Speaker McCarthy a flight risk?

Jack Smith (41:25)

He was not.

Jamie Raskin (41:26)

He was not. Then why did your non disclosure order refer to him as a flight risk? It says right here, the court finds reasonable grounds to believe that such disclosure will result in flight from prosecution.

Jack Smith (41:42)

Sir, when securing a non disclosure order, the risks don't have to be associated.

Jamie Raskin (41:49)

You think that the speaker of the House is flight risk? No. This is not your time. This is my time. You think the speaker of the House is a flight risk? You think he's gonna hop on a plane and leave the country?

Rachel Maddow (42:02)

California Republican Brandon Gill thought that he had him. Not only did Jack Smith scoop up the House Speaker's phone records, he did it in secret with A non disclosure order. And for this ridiculous reason that Kevin McCarthy was a flight risk. Come on, this is my time. Don't interrupt me. This has to be done in a very specific way. I said California, Texas Congressman. There's a very good reason why Texas Congressman Brandon Gill did not want to let Jack Smith finish that answer. Because what Jack Smith was starting to say there, what in fact he had spelled out in his deposition before this same committee last month, is that he never claimed House Speaker Kevin McCarthy was a flight risk. Rather, the boilerplate statutory language that Smith's team gave to a judge to sign that includes four different reasons why a judge might agree to a non disclosure order about somebody having their phone record subpoenaed. And one of those four reasons is that the person might pose a flight risk. But there are three other reasons, including stuff like maybe disclosing the subpoena could cause somebody to destroy or tamper with evidence, or it could cause a potential witness to be intimidated. So the flight risk thing has nothing to do with Kevin McCarthy. Nothing to do with this matter at all. It is a total canard. But if you can interrupt him at just the right time. This is my time, then maybe he can't explain that. So mission accomplished. Lawrence, when you're talking about the dignity of congressional testimony, I thought of this moment.

Chris Hayes (43:37)

Well, the other thing about flight risk is that if, if you disclose to Kevin McCarthy that this is happening, someone else might flee. There could be someone else who picks up that information, who's not. Kevin McCarthy goes, oh, if they're that close to him, then I should get out of here. Yeah, there's that point. But, you know, this phone records thing was, was just this repeated pointless nonsense where they all kept saying, and they're all shocked, they're completely shocked that it's only Republicans. The only phone records you want are Donald Trump and the White House calling Republicans in the House and the Senate on January 6th when he's trying to get them to turn over the election. It's only Republicans and it's. And you know, you know how many people were convicted of crimes in Watergate? 40.

Rachel Maddow (44:24)

All Republicans.

Chris Hayes (44:26)

Weirdly, no Democrats. And here's the thing. There wasn't a single Republican who complained about. There wasn't one Republican senator who said, how dare they convict only Richard Nixon's Republicans for committing crimes with and for Richard Nixon.

Rachel Maddow (44:42)

Yeah, seriously, Ari, I also have to put this to you in the middle of this hearing today. The first break they took was to go take votes in the House. And one of the Things they voted on was whether or not senators who had their phone records subpoenaed by Jack Smith should be able to get a half million dollars each from the Justice Department. And the vote was unanimous that senators should not be able to get money from the Justice Department for having their phones subpoenaed. Their phone records subpoenaed by Jack Smith, somewhat undercutting their own. Jeremiah, on this point, this line of.

Ari Melber (45:15)

Questioning was not believable. To believe it, you'd have to think that the congressman and Jim Jordan and everyone are more concerned that a judge oversaw the government coming in and picking up some phone records. They're more angry about that. That then a bunch of violent, later convicted thugs came into Congress to kill them and to hang Mike Pence and to do everything else. It doesn't compute, but it does have a real hey, it's all about me vibe, and the public will make up their own mind. But the idea that with democracy under attack and what Trump's getting away with and whether he's lining his pockets with crypto, that's legal, and whether we want a functioning Justice Department or not, and all you're saying is, oh, my God. There was one tangential way this reflects on me. I really felt like Jim Jordan, especially the opening. And then they moved on to other things. But when Jim Jordan kept going on and on about his photos, to me, it was very much. He was the Blake Lively of Congress today. And it's like things are happening in the real world. You're friends with Taylor Swift, but eventually, if you follow that story, and I forgive anyone who's busier with more important stories, Taylor Swift said, you know, Blake Lively, like, it's not all about you.

Lawrence O'Donnell (46:23)

Yeah.

Ari Melber (46:23)

And I'm Taylor Swift. And so with Jim Jordan, it's like with everything that happened, and you got cops who are sitting in the audience who were attacked by the thugs that Donald Trump freed from jail to say, no, it's okay, you were violent, because apparently they don't care about cops lives. And you're talking about your own phone record.

Rachel Maddow (46:40)

Yeah.

Nicole Wallace (46:40)

I mean, the other thing is these conspiracy theories are the micro of the micro. New York Times polling came out today that has Trump underwater on every single issue, more unpopular than. It's sort of the most scary part of COVID And so they're not even speaking about an issue that reanimates the people they've lost. 71% of all Americans think the country's out of control. His approval's down mid-30s, so they're not even talking about an issue that, like, juices that 30. They're talking about an issue that's like 2% of the 10%.

Rachel Maddow (47:12)

Yeah.

Nicole Wallace (47:12)

Like, even though people on Newsmax don't know what this is about.

Rachel Maddow (47:16)

And I would just say another, like, brilliant political by speaker of the House Mike Johnson to schedule a vote during this hearing that directly undercuts the case they're making about something they're supposedly so mad about at that hearing. Mike Johnson scores again.

Jack Smith (47:29)

All right.

Rachel Maddow (47:30)

Much more of our primetime recap of Jack Smith's testimony today ahead, including our exclusive interview with Congressman Jamie Raskin. Stay with us.

Lawrence O'Donnell (47:41)

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Jack Smith (47:45)

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Rachel Maddow (47:49)

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Jack Smith (47:53)

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