← The Rachel Maddow Show
The Rachel Maddow Show
Possible war crime puts Trump's 'illegal orders' freakout in new context
00:42:22
Rachel Maddow relays the details of a new Washington Post report that Donald Trump's secretary of defense, former weekend cable news host Pete Hegseth, gave orders to kill everyone on board a boat he accused of running drugs to the United States, which meant finishing off the survivors of an initial strike that destroyed the boat — the literal textbook definition of an illegal order. Rep. Adam Smith, ranking member of the House Armed Services Committee joins to discuss a new, bipartisan push to investigate Hegseth's orders.
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- [00:00]
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DSW Holiday PSA Announcer
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Rachel Maddow
Literally.
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DSW Holiday PSA Announcer
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- [01:00]
Rachel Maddow
Really happy to have you here. The new Gallup poll out today is terrible news for the President. Just absolutely terrible. His approval rating right now is minus 24. The president is 24 points underwater in his approval rating. 36% of the country approves of him. 60% disapproves. Just absolutely stunning, you know, not even one year in. And on the issues it's even worse. It's worse just because it's so relentlessly bad for him. No ray of light anywhere here. Do you approve of President Trump on the issue of crime? No. By a nine point margin. Do you approve of President Trump on the issue of foreign affairs? No. By a 15 point margin. Do you approve of Trump on trade? No. By a 19 point margin. Do you approve of Trump on immigration? Right. He really wants you to love him. On the issue of immigration? No. The American people do not approve of his handling of immigration. And what's the margin? The margin is 25 points. The American people disapprove of his handling of immigration more than they approve of it by 25 percentage points.
- [02:16]
Congressman Adam Smith
Huh.
- [02:17]
Rachel Maddow
Turns out all those propaganda videos of you being mean to immigrants aren't working. Do you approve of Trump on how he is handling things in the Middle east? No. By a 25 point margin. Do you approve of how Trump is handling the economy? No. 26 point margin. Do you approve of how he's handling the Russia and Ukraine war? No. By a 29 point margin. Do you approve of his handling of the budget? No. By a 33 point margin. Do you approve of his handling of health care? No. Also by a 33 point margin last week, you might remember me saying on this show at this time, President Trump and the Republicans said they had a fix for the disaster they have created on Americans health insurance premiums. But then for some reason last week they got shy. They unveiled precisely nothing on the subject. It's been a week now since they said they were going to unveil their fix. Still nothing. This is getting to be a really urgent thing. Tens of millions of Americans are gonna see their health insurance costs spike through the roof, their monthly premiums spike through the roof this month, at the end of this month, on December 31st. And Trump and the Republicans apparently still have no plan at all for, for how to fix the disaster they just created on that subject. And that is when he is already 33 points underwater in terms of how the American public views his handling of Healthcare. Today, December 1st is World AIDS Day. Since the 1980s, this is the day where worldwide we remember the millions of people killed in the HIV and AIDS pandemic. When we renew our efforts to fight that pandemic. The Trump administration decided this year that the United States of America will no longer observe World AIDS Day at all. And presumably that's because they have gutted all of America's programs to fight aids, including the bipartisan George W. Bush era program that has provided HIV treatment to people who can't afford it, the pepfar program, which has literally saved millions of lives. But Trump and Marco Rubio, inexplicably and for out, without giving any stated reason, decided to shut it down today. ACT UP Philadelphia and Health Gap and other groups shut down traffic near the White House to make clear that the American people are not going to go quietly on that one. And frankly, nobody's being quiet right now. I mean, usually around Thanksgiving and the start of the holiday season, the start of the really cold weather, you expect things to kind of chill out a little bit. That is not happening at all this weekend. Saturday in New York City, you might have seen some of this coverage. Quote, a spontaneous crowd of protesters chased many of the federal agents down Lafayette street as the agents returned to the ICE offices at 26 Federal Plaza. Quote, dozens of agents had appeared to be gathering for an immigration raid nearby when protesters gathered outside the parking garage where agents from U.S. customs and Border Patrol and Homeland Security had begun arriving. By the early afternoon, nearly 200 people had gathered on the street outside chanting and yelling at the agents. The confrontation appeared to foil the planned raid. In the afternoon, the chaos of the confrontation was still evident on Canal street, with broken slats of wood, garbage bags and trampled flower bouquets strewed along the street. But the agents, the federal immigration agents, were gone, having driven off in the direction of the Holland Tunnel and toward New Jersey. That's reporting in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal reporting that many of the people who joined that protest on Saturday in New York were just passersby, just pedestrians, people who were out, you know, doing their daily stuff, people who were not setting out to protest that day at all, but they nevertheless jumped right in when they saw it was Trump's immigration agents in their city. One advocate at the scene described it as, quote, organic, saying, quote, new Yorkers saw what was happening and started to rally. People are stepping up to defend one another. CNN reports on protesters chanting ice out of New York and locking arms. CNN's reporting says a senior official at HSI at Homeland Security Investigations had to apologize to New York's police commissioner after this debacle when she reamed him out for what the federal agents tried and failed to do in New York City. Chased out of the city by, among other things, just passers, by people who were not planning on protesting, who saw what was happening and rallied with their fellow New Yorkers to link arms with them and chase those people out of town. In New Orleans, they're preparing for Trump's immigration agents to go attack that city next. People in New Orleans protested against that. This week, people also lined up in New Orleans to buy out the entire stock at a beloved local taqueria in the city, Taqueria Guerrero. After that, Taqueria said they were going to close in anticipation of this attack from Trump's immigration agents. They would close to protect both their customers and their staff until Trump's agents are gone, their neighbors and customers buying out their stock to help them out as they close down to protect themselves. Cincinnati Inquirer just profiled a very different kind of pushback in a Trump country county in Ohio, in Butler County, Ohio. That's a county where Trump won the last election last year with 62% of the vote. Nevertheless, quote, a group almost 70 strong shows up weekly to commissioner meetings in this conservative Ohio county to protest local officials agreement with ice. The group protesting, quote, is mostly grandmas. Why are they such an older group that's turning up every week to protest at the county commissioner meetings? Well, one founding member of the newly formed Butler county for Immigrant justice group tells the Cincinnati Inquirer that it's mostly old folks who are participating in these protests because the county commissioners hold their meetings at 9:30am on Tuesdays. Well, who do you know who's available Every Tuesday at 9:30am to go protest retirees? That's who. That's who's available at that time. And so 82 year old Ann Jansen from Seven Mile, Ohio tells the Cincinnati Inquirer, quote, I can do it, therefore I need to. This was the Indiana State House today in red state Indiana. People telling Indiana Republicans to not do it, to not go along with Trump's demands that they redraw Indiana's congressional maps to take away Democratic seats in Congress after President Trump this weekend used a disgusting slur. He used the R word, a slur for developmentally disabled people, used it as a political insult this weekend that cost him one key Republican vote on those maps in Indiana. One Republican Indiana state senator has a daughter with down syndrome. He said, quote, this is not the first time our president has used these insulting and derogatory references. And his choices of words have consequences. Quote, I will be voting no on redistricting. There were protests against Trump this weekend in Mount Kisco, New York, and in Montclair, New Jersey, and in Yakima, Washington. And you know, here's the thing that we keep an eye on these protests every week. I gotta tell you, this seems this is sort of a category of protests that appears to be really taking off. You might remember this time last week, we reported on a protest at a Home Depot in Monrovia, California, in the Los Angeles area, at which people lined up by the hundreds to buy ice scrapers. So they picked up an ice scraper and then they got in line to spend 17 cents to buy one of these ice scrapers. And then as soon as they had bought the ice scraper in line, they then got back in line in a customer service line again. By the hundreds, hundreds of people did this. They got back in line at the customer service line to return the ice scraper they had just bought and get their 17 cents back. They created these lines that absolutely brought that Home Depot to a halt. They called it a buy in. The reason they did this is they want Home Depot to stop letting Home Depot stores and Home Depot parking lots be used by ice, be used by Trump's immigration agents for these raids. You know, we saw a bunch of these over the last few days, keyed to Black Friday. We saw Boycott Home Depot actions, and we ain't buying it. Boycott Home Depot actions all over the Country. We saw it happen at Home Depots in Atlanta and in Snellville, Georgia, in Cleveland, Ohio, out there in the snow. Boycott Home Depot. Defend democracy. We also saw this one at a Home Depot in Brooklyn, New York. And this one, you gotta turn up the sound. This one, you need to.
- [11:54]
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We don't want no more deportations we don't want no more deportations we don't want no more deportations at the Home Depot parking lot we don't want no more deportations we don't want no more deportations we don't want no more deportations at the Home Depot parking lot.
- [12:19]
Burn Order Podcast Narrator
We.
- [12:19]
DSW Holiday PSA Announcer
Don'T want no more deportations we don't want no more deportations we don't want no more deportations from the bottom of our heart.
- [12:41]
Rachel Maddow
This holiday. That's the resistance revival chorus as people start boycotting Home Depot, demanding that they stop letting Home Depot stores, and in particular Home Depot parking lots be used by Trump's immigration agents for these deportation raids. We saw protests this weekend targeting Avelo Airlines, which flies deportation flights for ice. We saw de ICE your planes. Protests against Avelo at the airport in Concord, North Carolina, where Avelo flies. Also at the New Haven, Connecticut airport, where Avello flies, where we've seen a lot of protests against them. We also saw protests against Avelo Airlines at the Albany, New York airport, where it was fricking fracking cold and people protesting against Avelo in the snow brought chains to show what it's like for Avelo to have people chained up on deportation flights and then try to sell you that same seat on that same plane for your next flight to your holiday destination. The Apple Store in Portland got a Black Friday picket in protest on Friday because Apple has caved to the Trump administration's demands that they take down apps from the Apple App Store, which people have made to warn each other about where ICE operations are happening. People pressuring ice, excuse me, pressuring Apple now to reverse that decision on the App Store. We've also been keeping eyes on the protests in Illinois and elsewhere targeting AT&T, telling that company, AT&T that they need to end their contracts with ICE. Economic boycotts can often have a much more immediate, much more lasting effect than typical political protest actions. We know this from contemporary history. We also know this from our history. History. 70 years ago today, today at 6:06pm, 70 years ago, Rosa Parks refused a bus driver's order to get up out of her seat on the bus so a white person could take her seat. That act of refusal was the start of the Montgomery bus boycott. She did that again December 1st, 70 years ago today, less than a week later, December 5th, 70 years ago, less than a week after she refused to move to the back of the bus, more than 5,000 people turned out to attend the first mass meeting to plan a boycott of the bus system in Montgomery, Alabama, an economic boycott. That boycott went on for 382 long days, more than a year, 382 days before that act of economic protest and logistical genius and economic sacrifice by African Americans in Alabama, forced to change and public bus segregation was ruled unconstitutional. And as Americans, that's not just something to be like retroactively impressed by, right? That's not just something to learn by heart at school and memorize. That's our moral foundation as a country. That's our strategic and moral inheritance as modern America. We can learn from Americans who have gone before us and fought against long odds to stop our government from doing terrible things. I mentioned a couple of months ago that I was going to be doing two things before the end of the year. I was going to be doing a pair of projects to try to sort of build on that idea, to help myself honestly think harder, to hopefully help us all think harder about other times in our modern history where Americans have done hard things and won. And it took a long time and it was difficult, but they won. Where Americans or previous generations of Americans can teach us how to win. How to beat the government when the government is at its worst and when it feels like the odds are against you. How to make the American government stop doing the worst things. The two projects I said before the end of the year, the first, first of those was the documentary that we aired here this fall just a few weeks ago on MSNBC called Andrew the Dirty Work. Andrew Young's own story, in his own words, about the nitty gritty, unglamorous, laborious detail work that it takes, that it took him to help steer the civil rights movement to its victories in the 1960s. The second of those projects that I said I was going to get out before the end of the year, the first one was the Andrew Young documentary. The second one of those projects comes out today and it's a podcast, a six part miniseries podcast. It's free to listen to it anywhere where you can listen to podcasts. It's called Burn Order. And Burn Order is about the American government making the decision in 1942 to incarcerate more than 120,000 people, men, women and children, whole American families incarcerated for years purely on the basis of their race. Most of them were American citizens. We generally talk about it. We sort of shorthand it now as the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II, but it was really the incarceration of Japanese Americans in legit prison camps. And they really were there for years. And I've just made this podcast, Burn Order, to tell some of the story of how we got that policy and who fought against it and how they ultimately got an investigation of what happened, an apology, and they got all the court cases around it overturned, and they got a pledge that America would never do it again, and they got reparations for the people who survived it, who stood against that? How did they fight it? And how, in the end, did they turn the American government around to apologize, to regret it, to say we'd never do it again, and to pay reparations. Here's a little piece of it.
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Burn Order Podcast Narrator
She was talking to someone and then noticed this document on the desk of somebody else, and kind of looked at it and just kind of thought, wow.
- [19:15]
Rachel Maddow
And she opens it up and she.
- [19:17]
Congressman Adam Smith
Finds these handwritten notes in the margins.
- [19:19]
Rachel Maddow
And she realizes, oh, boy.
- [19:22]
Burn Order Podcast Narrator
She talked about it with her eyes getting really large and just saying, wow, this is. Do you know what this is?
- [19:30]
Congressman Adam Smith
When Aiko picked it up and started leafing through, she immediately. I mean, her expression, oh, my goodness, look what I found.
- [19:41]
Burn Order Podcast Narrator
The document that Aiko found that day, it's a government report, but it's also a ghost. There's a good reason she never would have looked for it. It's because there's no file, no record anywhere, no index card, no catalog that.
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Rachel Maddow
Would have ever pointed her to it.
- [20:00]
Burn Order Podcast Narrator
The only record anyone has found, the only record Aiko has ever found about this document explicitly says that every single copy of this document has been destroyed. Every single copy of this government report was officially certified to have been incinerated, destroyed on purpose by fire. But here it is, not even singed, not even smoky sitting right in front of her.
- [20:34]
Rachel Maddow
As soon as I opened it, wow, I said, pow, this is it, you know? And it was luck. It was luck. If I hadn't walked in that day, it might not have been there.
- [20:47]
Burn Order Podcast Narrator
It wasn't really luck. Aiko was there that day because she was there basically every day. And because of that, because of her dogged persistence, she's made this find. She has spotted this document that the US Government never wanted anyone to see. This document, they insisted must be destroyed because of what it had the potential to reveal about one of the most disturbing chapters in American history.
- [21:22]
Congressman Adam Smith
We all instantly understood that if this gets out, the government is going to look really, really bad. This was something that nobody could have foreseen in their entire life. I still get a little choked up about that because it changed my life.
- [21:42]
Rachel Maddow
Ultimately, it would change a lot of lives.
- [21:46]
Burn Order Podcast Narrator
This retiree, this self described little old housewife, she was about to change the course of American history.
- [21:56]
Rachel Maddow
So that's from Burn Order, my new podcast. It's six episodes. It's out as of today. It's free to listen on any podcast app. Like I said, first two episodes are out today. The rest of the episodes will come out on Mondays. From here on out. Also, if you're in the Los Angeles area, you can come see me and some people who worked with us on the podcast at a live event at the Orpheum Theater in Los Angeles on Sunday, December 14th. I think there are still some tickets available for that. But you know, at a time now when the president is rounding up immigrants and sticking them in hastily constructed detention camps, when he is now threatening that he's going to strip Americans of their U.S. citizenship, which is something they threatened against Japanese Americans, too, at a time when he is calling immigrants from Venezuela alien enemies because he says we're somehow at war with Venezuela, but none of that makes sense because we're supposedly at war with Venezuela because of drug trafficking, while at the same time Trump is pardoning a different Latin American president who really was convicted of massive drug smuggling into the United States. When the administration's actions are inexplicable and just mad and cruel in equal measure, it is really worth remembering that this guy is profoundly, deeply, wildly unpopular in this country. He is 24 points underwater in his approval rating. The people of the United States do not like what he is doing. They are not buying what he is selling. And and also we as Americans have inherited in this country a rich and deep and forgive me, fairly badass traditional of putting a stop to it when our government goes wrong, of refusing to go along, of boycotting and protesting and showing up at every meeting, even the ones at 9:30 on a Tuesday, and ultimately discovering the truth and holding them accountable for it, and in the end, winning so that they are ashamed to ever admit what they did, so that their best hope is that history forgets them and can't find them. That's the lesson of Japanese American incarceration in World War II. That's the lesson of the civil rights movement and the Montgomery Bus Boycott. That may yet be the lesson of our time today. We can learn from Americans who have done this before in previous generations. We can learn also from people around the world fighting their own authoritarian takeovers in their own ways, with their own traditions. We're going to do some of both of those things here tonight on this show. Stay with us.
- [24:38]
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- [25:05]
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Willow Boutique Owner
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- [26:03]
Rachel Maddow
Nadia Tolikonikova was sentenced to prison in Russia when she was only 22 years old. She is a founding member of a punk band whose name you have heard me say uncomfortably several times now on this show. Nadia Tolakonnikova is a founding member of the group Pussy Riot for staging a musical anti Putin protest at an Orthodox cathedral in Moscow. Nadia and two of her bandmates were charged in 2012 with hooliganism. Look like hooligans to you? They were convicted and sentenced to two years in prison. Ms. Tolo Konikova does not live in Russia anymore, but she very well may live inside Vladimir Putin's head. In 2021, the Russian government labeled her a foreign agent. In 2023, Russia put her on the most wanted list after a protest art action called Putin's Ashes. Later that year, Russia made a show of arresting her in absentia, which is not a thing. This year in the United States, Nadia Tolokonnikova recreated her old Russian prison cell as art. She was just settling into her new exhibit at the Los Angeles Museum of Contemporary Art when Donald Trump ordered National guard troops and U.S. marines into Los Angeles. With the resulting protests outside and a curfew in place, the museum decided to close, which is why Ms. Tolokonnikova ended up not inside her own Police State exhibit in the Museum of Contemporary Art, but ultimately outside protesting Trump in the streets of Los Angeles, holding a big banner that reads, it's beginning to look a lot like Russia. When facing down an authoritarian regime or a would be authoritarian takeover of a previously democratic country, it helps to know what to look for. If you followed the march of this president on American cities, the so called blitzing and sweeping of American cities, then you know that after Los Angeles came Chicago, right? Federal agents began swarming the streets of Chicago in early September, arresting thousands of people, most of them people with no criminal record whatsoever. The people of Chicago responded with whistles and car horns and prayer circles amid the tear gas. And downtown at the Museum of Contemporary Art, Chicago, there was Nadia Tolokonnikova getting ready for another staging of her Police State exhibit with a recreation of her Russian prison cell in another city, facing a show of force by this American president. While she was in the Chicago museum, being the artist inside the police state, the Russian government decided to take yet another swipe at her. On Friday, the government of Russia moved to declare Pussy Riot an extremist organization, as if they're like Al Qaeda or something. And from inside the Chicago Museum, Nadia Tolo Konikova responded. She wrote, quote, I'm in the middle of a durational performance called Police State at MCA Chicago. Now, all day long I'm sewing police uniforms and mixing live sound at the installation that resembles a Russian prison cell, a piece that's meant to warn about surveillance authoritarianism spreading around the world like a virus. Singing in the streets is not extremism. Doing street actions is not extremism. Extremism is invading other countries and committing war crimes. Being anti fascist and wearing a Pikachu costume is not extremism, she says, quote, and if telling the truth is extreme, then hold my red ball. Joining us now here on set is Nadia Tolo Konikova. She's an artist, a musician, and a founding member of Pussy Riot. A book documenting her Police State exhibit comes out next week. You can pre order it now along with a 7 inch record which might be the most punk thing ever said on the Rachel Maudo show after the name of your band. Nadia, thank you so much for being here.
- [30:07]
Nadia Tolokonnikova
I wanted to give you the mask. So you could be an extremist as well.
- [30:10]
Rachel Maddow
Oh, that is very kind of you.
- [30:12]
Nadia Tolokonnikova
Welcome to that is.
- [30:14]
Rachel Maddow
I treasure it. Thank you very much. Means a lot to me.
- [30:17]
Nadia Tolokonnikova
What is scary in Russia for wearing this once we are going to become officially an extremist organization. You can actually go to jail for that.
- [30:26]
Rachel Maddow
For having something that identifies you with this.
- [30:29]
Nadia Tolokonnikova
Exactly. For having it at home, even not wearing if they find it at home.
- [30:33]
Rachel Maddow
What's the difference between the way that you and other members of the group have been individually targeted? I mean, you've spent time in prison, you and your colleagues have been arrested. The individual targets targeting of you. What's the difference between that and this declaration that the group itself is extremist?
- [30:51]
Nadia Tolokonnikova
This declaration means they want to erase us from public consciousness. Because even though Russian authorities claim that we can't really influence Russian people's minds from the outside, they made us escape our own country, leave in exile. I guess it still gets to people's minds and hearts. And by calling the entire organization illegal, you can't mention us without saying that this organization is forbidden on the territory of Russia. And you can't say anything good about it because otherwise it's going to be supporting extremism. Our supporters, relatives might be in trouble. If you send us any money, even one cent, you are going to be sent to prison for extremism. If you post on Twitter or Facebook, same thing.
- [31:48]
Rachel Maddow
Recently, our president used an executive order to try to declare antifa, which is just a general term that means anti fascist, a terrorist organization. And the reaction to that in the United States has mostly been dismissive because people think that it's not operational, it's nothing that they can act on. But it sounds to me like it's very much in keeping with the type of playbook that you and your colleagues are up against. I wonder if you think that we're being. If we're asleep at the wheel, if we're not taking these things seriously enough.
- [32:20]
Nadia Tolokonnikova
Yes. It seems a lot like Americans prefer not to notice the destruction of democracy that is happening right in front of your nose. And it all starts with scapegoating certain groups of people in Russia. It's not just busyrat, obviously. It's all the supporters of Alexei Navalny. And recently it was LGBTQ movement labeled as an extremist organization. What does that supposed to mean? And people are laughing at it until it's not funny anymore. And people are dying in jail for being part of lgbtq. So it gives the government tools to pick and choose who they want to punish. And no, not everyone who calls themselves antifascist is going to go to jail. But if Trump doesn't like you specifically, he will find a way how to use this law against you.
- [33:18]
Rachel Maddow
You've traveled around the United States a lot, including for this current art project and these museum exhibitions that you've been doing. What do you make about the American people's resistance right now? A level of consciousness about the threat that we're under and the tactics that the American people have adopted so far. In terms of trying to say no.
- [33:42]
Nadia Tolokonnikova
I was really impressed by the people of Chicago. They fell a little bit less asleep than people in Los Angeles, even though the no Kings protest was absolutely amazing and very creative. I think right now you live under a lot of pressure, but you are in a beautiful moment when under pressure, you can produce beautiful art, beautiful protest actions. You know, this pressure can actually help you to be productive. But you have to understand that there will be a moment when you weren't going to be able to do all this stuff. So from 2010 to 2018, we were able to be active and creative and happy, building community in Russia. And then at some point we all got pushed out of our country.
- [34:37]
Rachel Maddow
So.
- [34:40]
Nadia Tolokonnikova
If you ask me about a lesson that you can learn from Russians, I think the main lesson would be don't cancel each other. Talk to different groups of people within the opposition and try to build a broader coalition, because I think that was one of our biggest mistakes.
- [35:01]
Rachel Maddow
Nadia Tolokonikova artist, musician, founding member of Pussy Riot this does mean a lot to me, and I'm honored that you're here. Thank you.
- [35:09]
Nadia Tolokonnikova
Thank you.
- [35:10]
Rachel Maddow
Good luck to you.
- [35:11]
Nadia Tolokonnikova
Thank you.
- [35:12]
Rachel Maddow
Well, be right back. Stay with us.
- [35:16]
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- [35:46]
DSW Holiday PSA Announcer
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- [36:16]
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- [36:45]
Rachel Maddow
So now we know. Now we know why President Trump and his administration got so freaked out when Democratic lawmakers, military and intelligence veterans who are now in Congress posted that video reminding American service members that they don't have to follow illegal orders. Now it makes sense why that caused such a freakout, right? I mean, it was sort of on its face, a weird thing to get upset about not being obliged to follow illegal orders. That's like the sun rises in the east. It's a very normal thing. It's a statement of law and of the basic ethos of the U.S. military. I mean, everybody in the U.S. military, every officer, every enlisted person, everybody is taught that you don't follow illegal orders. You can't follow illegal orders. You must not follow illegal orders. So why are these guys freaking out that members of Congress just reiterated that one very true, long standing, non controversial thing? Oh, now we know. That's why they were freaking out about it. Because now we know that in September, just weeks ago, Donald Trump's defense secretary and former Fox News Weekend co host Pete Hegseth reportedly gave a verbal order to kill everybody on board a boat in the Caribbean that was suspected of drug smuggling. It's according to the Washington Post, citing a person with direct knowledge of the operation, when a live drone feed showed two survivors of the attack on that boat clinging to the wreckage, a second missile was then fired at them to kill them so as to comply with Hegseth's order that nobody should be left alive even once they were shipwrecked and floating in the ocean clinging to debris and obviously a threat to no one. Now, when I say this is a textbook example of an illegal order, I mean that literally. As Ryan Goodman from Just Security and others have since pointed out in the Law of War manual at the Defense Department in the section on refusing to obey illegal orders, the quintessential example the manual gives of an illegal order that must be refused Is, quote, for example, orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal. Clearly illegal. That is what the senior military lawyer at Southern Command reportedly concluded about the Caribbean boat strikes. He was sidelined by the Trump administration after expressing that view. According to NBC News, the commanding officer of Southern Command stepped down from his post early, something almost unheard of. That also happened reportedly after he voiced concerns about whether these strikes were illegal. The uk, our closest intelligence ally, reportedly believes these strikes are so illegal that the UK has stopped sharing intelligence with us that might help the Trump administration carry out these strikes. Tonight, the Washington Post reports that some of Pete Hegseth's top civilian staff are, quote, deeply alarmed about the revelations of what Hegseth ordered and are contemplating, quote, whether to leave the administration because of really seems like they've been caught doing something quite flagrantly, blatantly illegal. So now what? That's next. Quote, this committee is committed to providing rigorous oversight of the Defense Department's military operations in the Caribbean. We take seriously the reports of follow on strikes on boats alleged to be ferrying narcotics and are taking bipartisan action to gather a full accounting of the operation in question. That is a statement signed by the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Adam Smith. It also, and this is news, it also is signed by the Republican chairman of that committee. Republicans joining Democrats in pledging to investigate something the Trump administration did. Lions lying down with the lambs. It's like cats volunteering for baths. It's like the jets winning a football game. What is going on here? Joining us now is Congressman Adam Smith of Washington, the top Democrat on the Armed Services Committee in the House. Sir, thank you very much for being with us tonight. It's a pleasure to have you here.
- [41:09]
Congressman Adam Smith
Thanks, Rachel. And ironically, the jets did win a football game this weekend. So I guess we're living in a bizarro world all the time.
- [41:17]
Rachel Maddow
Exactly my point. The craziest things imaginable can happen. Let me ask you first, for those of our viewers who are thinking, listen, the strikes to blow up these boats in the Caribbean seem illegal enough. Why is it worse? Why is it a qualitatively different scenario? Why is it so much more upsetting to members of Congress that there was a follow on strike to kill survivors of one of these initial attacks?
- [41:48]
Congressman Adam Smith
Look, that's a very fair question. In my opinion, there's not that much of a difference. I've always felt these boat strikes were illegal for a wide variety of reasons. What seems to have made it different is it has gotten the attention of Republicans in Congress. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to get through this crack in this issue here to get a focus on what is a clearly illegal action. I love the fact that you went right to the UCMJ textbook that said this is what we're talking about that you can't do. So out of that crack, I hope, number one, we can pursue this. Absolutely. Because I think we had a clear instance, if this happened the way it has been reported, of a war crime. But then go beyond that. What's going on with the entire operation, it isn't even really about drugs. It doesn't seem if Trump is pardoning a major convicted drug dealer from Honduras because he happens to like the political party that got. So this is a crack to get to the wider issue. And I think it's worth focusing on that point you just made that the reason that it's illegal to hit these two guys when they're clinging to the side of a sinking boat is because they pose no threat to the US Or US Forces. But the same can be said of that boat before it was hit in the first place. Whatever you think about drugs and cocaine and the impact that is not a military definition of a threat to US Persons and US Forces.
- [43:07]
Rachel Maddow
I'm glad that you mentioned the apparent irony of the president alleging that Venezuela is such a threat to the United States because of drug trafficking that he's ascribing to the president of Venezuela that we are effectively in a state of war with Venezuela and that has led to these bizarre, I think, arguably pretty clearly extralegal illegal actions in the Caribbean against these boats. That's all happening on one side of the ledger, while on the other other side of the ledger the President has is pledging to pardon the former president of Honduras who was convicted of mass scale drug smuggling of cocaine into the United States. I mean, in the hundreds of tons territory because of that. Because that sort of gives lie to the drug trafficking explanation for what's going on with us in Venezuela. Does that give you any more clarity on why they are ratcheting up these tensions with Venezuela to the point where it almost feels like it may be war any day now?
- [44:09]
Congressman Adam Smith
Look, I personally have had clarity for some time with Donald Trump. This is about his personal power and it's also about his 19th century belief in spheres of influence. You know, that the Western hemisphere is ours and Petro and Venezuela are refusing to bend the knee to Trump. That's why he's going after them. It's not about drugs. It's about his power over the region. It's the same reason that he's selling out Ukraine to Russia in this belief of strongman rule and spheres of influence. So this is about much more than one illegal boat strike, and I hope people understand that.
- [44:42]
Rachel Maddow
Do you expect to be able to review video, drone video of the strikes on the boat as you and your Republican colleagues pursue accountability here?
- [44:53]
Congressman Adam Smith
That is one of the many things that we are demanding. First, we want a full explanation about what happened, and we want to know the chain of command and the, the legality behind it. And by the way, for Secretary Hegseth to be the tough guy Persona that he is, and then when this happened, goes, oh, that was Admiral Bradley's call. No, this was Secretary Hegseth's call. We want to know what the rules of engagement were. We want to know what the chain of command was and how this was laid out. And yes, we want all the videos, all the background mail, everything that went into this decision and everybody that was part of that chain of command to explain themselves on this. And again, I think on all of these boat strikes, where this is going, why it is being done, and what is the legal justification in their minds.
- [45:36]
Rachel Maddow
Congressman Adam Smith of Washington, ranking Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee. Sir, thanks very much for your time tonight. I really appreciate you being here.
- [45:45]
Congressman Adam Smith
Thanks, Rachel. I appreciate the chance.
- [45:47]
Rachel Maddow
We should note that former jags, former military lawyers put out a statement today saying anyone who issues or follows such orders can and should be prosecuted for war crimes, murder, or both. That explains some of, I think, what the anxiety is in the White House around this issue right now and around the ongoing position of Mr. Hegseth in the Cabinet. We'll be right back. Stay with us. All right. That is going to do it for me tonight.
- [46:14]
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