The Rachel Maddow Show – "Possible war crime puts Trump's 'illegal orders' freakout in new context"

Date: December 2, 2025
Host: Rachel Maddow
Key Guests: Congressman Adam Smith, Nadia Tolokonnikova (Pussy Riot)

Episode Overview

In this incisive episode, Rachel Maddow explores the fallout and context surrounding reports of possibly illegal military orders issued by the Trump administration, specifically a directive that appears to constitute a war crime. The show opens with a deep dive into Trump's historically low approval ratings and public resistance to his policies, transitions into the lessons of American protest history, and culminates in exclusive interviews with both an international dissident and a key congressional oversight figure. The episode skillfully connects current events with the American tradition of civic resistance and checks on executive power, shedding light on how recent protests, government actions, and historical precedent inform the national conversation.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trump's Approval Crisis & Policy Backlash

• [01:00] Maddow details a “terrible” new Gallup poll: Trump stands 24 points underwater in approval, with only 36% approval vs. 60% disapproval.

  • Breakdown on specific issues: Trump is underwater on every major topic, from crime to health care to foreign affairs.
  • Notable stat: On immigration, his disapproval margin is 25 points; on health care and budget, it's a staggering 33 points.

• Public Protests and Direct Actions

  • [03:23 onwards] Mass protests against ICE raids are erupting, sometimes spontaneously—like crowds chasing agents out of NYC and bystanders joining in.
  • Economic resistance: Buyouts to support threatened immigrant businesses in New Orleans; grandmas in Ohio showing up weekly at commission meetings.
  • Memorable quote: 82-year-old protester Ann Jansen: “I can do it, therefore I need to.” [05:27]

2. Economic Boycotts & Historical Protest Tactics

• [09:47] Highlights recent “buy-in” and boycott tactics—protesters buying and almost immediately returning ice scrapers at Home Depot to disrupt business due to their cooperation with ICE.

  • Boycotts have targeted Home Depot nationwide, as well as airlines like Avelo (for flying deportation flights), Apple (for removing ICE warning apps), and AT&T (contracted with ICE).

• American History of Boycott Activism

  • [13:32] Reminds listeners of the 70th anniversary of Rosa Parks' activism and the 382-day Montgomery Bus Boycott.
  • Underscores the “moral and strategic inheritance” of resistance in U.S. history: “We can learn from Americans who have gone before us and fought against long odds to stop our government from doing terrible things.” – Rachel Maddow [14:47]

3. Learning from Historical Injustices: Maddow’s New Project

• [17:34] Maddow introduces her new podcast miniseries Burn Order, about the WWII incarceration of Japanese Americans, and how Americans ultimately exposed, apologized, and paid reparations for that national crime.

• [19:04] Excerpt from Burn Order: The discovery of a "destroyed" classified document proving knowledge (and wrongness) of government actions during internment, by a dogged female researcher.

  • Notable exchange:
    • “The only record Aiko has ever found about this document explicitly says that every single copy of this document has been destroyed...But here it is, not even singed, not even smoky, sitting right in front of her.” – Narrator [20:02-20:33]
    • “As soon as I opened it, wow, I said, pow, this is it, you know?” – Rachel Maddow [20:33]

4. Current Parallels: U.S. Actions and Authoritarianism

• [22:26–23:57] Maddow draws direct connections between current Trump-era immigration raids, threats to strip citizenship, and the historical wrongs to Japanese Americans.

• Memorable assertion: “And also we as Americans have inherited in this country a rich and deep and forgive me, fairly badass tradition of putting a stop to it when our government goes wrong... showing up at every meeting, even the ones at 9:30 on a Tuesday.” – Rachel Maddow [23:31]

Interview Segment: Nadia Tolokonnikova (Pussy Riot) on Authoritarian Playbooks

[26:02–35:01]

Art and Resistance in the Face of Repression

• Background: Nadia Tolokonnikova, a founding member of Pussy Riot, discusses her experience as a political prisoner and the recent designation of her group as an "extremist organization" by the Russian government.
• [30:33] Explanation of the designation's chilling effect:
  “This declaration means they want to erase us from public consciousness...Our supporters, relatives might be in trouble. If you send us any money, even one cent, you are going to be sent to prison for extremism.” – Nadia Tolokonnikova

American Context and Warnings

• [31:48] Comparison between Russian tactics and Trump's attempts to label antifa a terrorist organization.
  • Warning to Americans:
    “Yes. It seems a lot like Americans prefer not to notice the destruction of democracy that is happening right in front of your nose. And it all starts with scapegoating certain groups of people.” – Nadia Tolokonnikova [32:20]
  • On resistance:
    “Right now you live under a lot of pressure, but you are in a beautiful moment when under pressure, you can produce beautiful art, beautiful protest actions...But you have to understand that there will be a moment when you aren't going to be able to do all this stuff.” – Nadia Tolokonnikova [33:42]
  • Advice: Build broader coalitions, avoid internal cancellations within opposition.

Notable Moment

• [30:07] Nadia gives Rachel a Pussy Riot mask:
  “I wanted to give you the mask. So you could be an extremist as well.” – Nadia Tolokonnikova
  “I treasure it. Thank you very much. Means a lot to me.” – Rachel Maddow

Main Segment: Illegal Orders and Possible War Crime (Trump Era)

[36:45–45:47]

Summary of Events

• [36:45] Maddow explains why Trump allies “freaked out” at Democratic lawmakers’ reminder that illegal orders must not be followed in the military—because a new report indicates a recent illegal order was given and followed.
  • In Sept. 2025, Trump’s defense secretary Pete Hegseth reportedly ordered the killing of everyone on a drug-smuggling boat, including firing a second missile at unarmed survivors.
  • Law of War manual specifically cites firing on “shipwrecked” as an example of an illegal order.
  • UK has broken intelligence sharing with the U.S. over the illegality of these strikes.

Bipartisan Investigation

• [40:32] Both Democratic and Republican leaders of the House Armed Services Committee have signed a statement pledging a bipartisan investigation.

Interview with Rep. Adam Smith (Ranking Democrat, Armed Services Committee)

[41:09–45:44]

• Difference between initial and follow-on strikes:

  • "In my opinion, there's not that much of a difference...What seems to have made it different is it has gotten the attention of Republicans in Congress. So what we're trying to do is get through this crack in this issue here to get a focus on what is a clearly illegal action.” – Rep. Adam Smith [41:47]

• On the implications of the Venezuela/Drug Smuggling Justification:

  • “With Donald Trump, this is about his personal power and it's also about his 19th century belief in spheres of influence...It's the same reason that he's selling out Ukraine to Russia...” [44:09]

• On what’s next—Oversight Demands:

  • Congress is demanding all drone video, communications, and explanations around the chain of command and legal rationale for the strike.
  • Emphasis on accountability for anyone in the chain of command, including Secretary Hegseth shifting blame.

• Quote on prosecution:

  • “Former jags, former military lawyers put out a statement today saying anyone who issues or follows such orders can and should be prosecuted for war crimes, murder, or both.” – Rachel Maddow [45:47]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Turns out all those propaganda videos of you being mean to immigrants aren't working.” – Rachel Maddow [02:16]
• “I can do it, therefore I need to.” – Ann Jansen, 82, Ohio protester [05:27]
• “We don't want no more deportations at the Home Depot parking lot.” – Resistance Chorus [12:19]
• “That's our moral foundation as a country. That's our strategic and moral inheritance as modern America.” – Rachel Maddow [14:53]
• “As soon as I opened it, wow, I said, pow, this is it, you know?” – Rachel Maddow (regarding Burn Order doc discovery) [20:33]
• “Right now you live under a lot of pressure, but you are in a beautiful moment when under pressure, you can produce beautiful art, beautiful protest actions.” – Nadia Tolokonnikova [33:42]
• “If you ask me about a lesson that you can learn from Russians, I think the main lesson would be don't cancel each other. Talk to different groups of people within the opposition and try to build a broader coalition, because I think that was one of our biggest mistakes.” – Nadia Tolokonnikova [34:39]
• “This is about much more than one illegal boat strike, and I hope people understand that.” – Rep. Adam Smith [44:41]
• “Anyone who issues or follows such orders can and should be prosecuted for war crimes, murder, or both.” – Rachel Maddow (citing military lawyers) [45:47]

Segment Timestamps

• Trump approval/disapproval numbers & policy backlash: [01:00–03:23]
• Grassroots protest actions around ICE raids: [03:23–11:53]
• Economic boycotts & historical parallels: [11:53–17:34]
• Intro to Burn Order podcast & Japanese American internment: [17:34–22:26]
• Parallel critiques of current immigration detentions: [22:26–25:00]
• Interview: Nadia Tolokonnikova (Pussy Riot): [26:02–35:01]
• Illegal military order / war crime context & interview with Rep. Adam Smith: [36:45–45:47]

Conclusion

This episode is a powerhouse of historical analogy, real-time accountability, and international perspective. Maddow uses data, protest coverage, and expert voices to underline an urgent message: the fight for democratic norms under threat must draw on hard lessons from both U.S. history and current global struggles. The episode’s frank coverage of possible war crimes, government overreach, and popular resistance provides a compelling and accessible resource for anyone needing to catch up on both the facts and their significance.