Republicans choke on defense of Trump's pardon of Jan. 6 rioters. Could it be shame?

Summary

The Rachel Maddow Show Episode: Republicans Choke on Defense of Trump's Pardon of Jan. 6 Rioters. Could It Be Shame? Release Date: January 22, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Rachel Maddow Show, host Rachel Maddow delves deep into the multifaceted repercussions of former President Donald Trump's controversial pardons of individuals involved in the January 6th Capitol riot. The discussion navigates through the political fallout within the Republican Party, the ethical implications of the pardons, and the broader impact on American democracy.

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East Palestine Train Derailment and Associated Scandals

[00:49] The episode begins with a retrospective on the catastrophic train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, highlighting the environmental disaster caused by toxic chemical spills. Maddow underscores the compounded dangers faced by the community, including immediate physical hazards and long-term health concerns affecting air, soil, and water quality.

[05:43] Rachel Maddow discusses the emergence of conspiracy theories propagated by far-right figures like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Aaron Rodgers, who downplayed the severity of the disaster and suggested malicious intent behind the EPA's involvement.

[07:53] The conversation shifts to the deceitful actions of campaign staffers from Republican Congresswomen Marjorie Taylor Greene and Elise Stefanik, who orchestrated a fake charity, the "Ohio Clean Water Fund," purportedly to aid East Palestine residents. The scam raised over $140,000, with only 6.7% reaching the intended beneficiaries.

Notable Quote:

• Rachel Maddow [05:43]: "They were raising money, saying they were raising it for the food bank with the food bank. And that was totally untrue."

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Congressman Michael Roulley's Controversial Decisions

[08:06] Maddow criticizes Congressman Michael Roulley of Ohio for appointing Mike Peppel, the architect behind the fake charity, as his new communications director. This decision has stirred outrage among East Palestine residents and local authorities, undermining trust in their representative.

[26:33] An unnamed Episcopal Bishop confronts President Trump and Senator J.D. Vance, urging mercy and emphasizing the fear among American communities facing potential deportation and other punitive actions.

Notable Quote:

• Rob Lowe [08:06]: "The local congressman for East Palestine thinks so highly of his constituents that he thinks the best spokesperson for his office as their congressman is the guy who just had to settle with the attorney general's office for scamming the people of East Palestine."

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Trump's Pardoning of January 6th Rioters

[14:46] The heart of the episode centers on Trump's use of presidential pardons to release 211 individuals convicted for their roles in the January 6th insurrection. Maddow and her panelists examine the motivations behind the pardons and the political calculus within the Republican Party.

[17:27] Maddow reflects on the shame and embarrassment felt by Republican senators when confronted about their stance on the pardons, highlighting a rare moment of dissent within the party.

Notable Quotes:

• Rachel Maddow [16:52]: "Am I concerned about it? I mean, it's, again, it's not ideal, but I'm not overly concerned about it either."
• Rob Lowe [17:27]: "The feeling they are having that disgusting feeling of having to swallow this and try to come up with some way to try to stop talking about it because they can't say anything about it that doesn't disgust them and that isn't viscerally wrong."

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Impact on National Security and Intelligence Agencies

[35:16] The discussion transitions to the implications of Trump's appointments to key national security positions, specifically criticizing the nomination of Tulsi Gabbard as Director of National Intelligence. Rachel Maddow warns that such appointments could "decapitate the national security establishment" by placing unqualified individuals in critical roles.

[38:25] Maddow elaborates on the dangers of granting security clearances indiscriminately, arguing that it undermines intelligence operations and national security.

Notable Quote:

• Rachel Maddow [35:44]: "If you put in charge of the American national security establishment crackpots and fools whose only qualification is their deathless loyalty to Donald Trump, you are not going to get good intelligence."

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Trump's Executive Orders on Immigration and Citizenship

[41:07] The episode covers Trump's executive order aimed at rescinding birthright citizenship, a clear violation of the 14th Amendment. Maddow outlines the immediate legal challenges and the efforts by organizations like the ACLU and CASA to protect immigrant communities.

[45:43] In an exclusive interview, Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson discusses his city's proactive measures to defend immigrant residents against potential deportation raids, emphasizing solidarity and comprehensive support systems.

Notable Quote:

• Brandon Johnson [47:13]: "As mayor and as a former public school teacher, we have made incredible investments in our public schools to ensure that every single child... deserves and want in this moment."

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Conclusion and Reflections

Maddow concludes by reflecting on the growing internal divisions within the Republican Party, spurred by Trump's actions and the consequential moral dilemmas faced by its members. She emphasizes the importance of accountability and the potential for public pressure to instigate change within the party.

[27:51] Maddow posits that the shame and embarrassment felt by Republicans when confronted with these issues could serve as a catalyst for change, potentially slowing down Trump's more destructive maneuvers.

Notable Quote:

• Rob Lowe [28:36]: "There's Donald Trump and J.D. Vance sitting there and listening, having to... I don't think you probably budged Donald Trump himself by calling on his better angels."

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Key Takeaways

• Political Fallout: Trump's pardons have caused significant unrest within the Republican Party, exposing fractures and ethical concerns among its members.
• Accountability Issues: The appointment of individuals with questionable backgrounds to influential positions undermines public trust and national security.
• Legal and Social Defense: Legal challenges and community initiatives are actively resisting Trump's immigration and citizenship policies.
• Potential for Change: Public scrutiny and internal shame within the GOP may force a reevaluation of its support for Trump's actions.

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Notable Quotes Summary

• Rachel Maddow [05:43]: On the fraudulent charity: "They were raising money, saying they were raising it for the food bank with the food bank. And that was totally untrue."
• Rob Lowe [08:06]: On Congressman Roulley's appointment: "The local congressman for East Palestine thinks so highly of his constituents that he thinks the best spokesperson for his office as their congressman is the guy who just had to settle with the attorney general's office for scamming the people of East Palestine."
• Rachel Maddow [35:44]: On national security appointments: "If you put in charge of the American national security establishment crackpots and fools whose only qualification is their deathless loyalty to Donald Trump, you are not going to get good intelligence."
• Brandon Johnson [47:13]: On protecting immigrant communities: "As mayor and as a former public school teacher, we have made incredible investments in our public schools to ensure that every single child... deserves and want in this moment."
• Rob Lowe [17:27]: On Republican shame: "The feeling they are having that disgusting feeling of having to swallow this and try to come up with some way to try to stop talking about it because they can't say anything about it that doesn't disgust them and that isn't viscerally wrong."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Rachel Maddow Show provides a comprehensive analysis of the internal conflicts within the Republican Party following Trump's pardons of January 6th rioters. Through incisive commentary and revealing interviews, Maddow highlights the ethical and political challenges that may shape the future of American politics.

Transcript

[Rob Lowe]

Hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Rob Lowe]

USAA am quite happy to have you here. Thank you. So almost two years ago now, you might remember that there was a horrible train derailment in Ohio, in East Palestine, Ohio, near the Ohio, Pennsylvania border. This was a huge, big, long train, nearly two miles long, and roughly 50 cars on that train derailed. And many of the cars that derailed were tank cars carrying toxic chemicals. Between the crash itself and the decision that was made to burn off the contents of some of those cars, the result in East Palestine was just this huge, disgusting, really dangerous environmental disaster for the people who lived there or lived near there. There was so many levels of danger. There was the immediate danger of the crash and the resultant conflagration. But then immediately there's also these very serious health concerns and contamination concerns about their air and their soil and their water. And those concerns seem to stretch on infinitely now for reasons we'll call them reasons. This was also a disaster that sparked a ton of conspiracy theories and misinformation, particularly on the far right people like the pro Trump far right congresswoman from Georgia, Marjorie Taylor Greene, also the eccentric NFL quarterback Aaron Rodgers, spread conspiracy theories about what had really happened in East Palestine and who had really caused it and tried to make it look like a disaster and what they didn't want you to know and what they were trying to distract you from. Senator J.D. vance of Ohio had just become the senator from Ohio one month before the derailment happened. And he did do some kind of normal senator work on the derailment issue with Democratic Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown. It's kind of the only highlight of J.D. vance's whole Senate career, but he also kind of went down the rabbit hole on this. He went to Capitol Hill and announced that the country didn't care about the East Palestine derailment because the people in East Palestine are white people and nobody cares about white people, okay? A Fox News host suggested that the EPA had deliberately caused the derailment, saying about the Biden administration's EPA director, quote, is this his idea of fighting environmental racism? Spilling toxic chemicals on poor white people in Ohio? I mean, this was a really terrible disaster, full stop. It did not help that for whatever reason, it also became the focus of some very, very strange, very divisive politics. But you know what also didn't help in the aftermath of that disaster? The other thing that really, really didn't help was the scammers. Including famously, a scam clean water fake charity that swooped in right after the derailment. This is the Second Harvest Food bank of Mahoning Valley in Ohio. They are a legit and really well regarded charity. For decades, they have provided food and support to people in the part of Eastern Ohio where this derailment happened. But about a month after the derailment happened, somebody set up something online that was supposed to look like a charity, even though it wasn't registered as a charity. And they said that if you donated money, they would provide, quote, clean bottled water to families in and around East Palestine. And they listed the name of this food bank, this long established, well regarded local food bank as their partner in this effort to get clean water to the people of East Palestine. Which sounds like a great cause, right? Sounds like a great way to do it. A local charity with this local food bank to provide this really specific local need. It just seems right. And this was just weeks after the derailment when a lot of people all over the country really did want some practical way to support and help the people of East Palestine, Ohio. This thing even had a great name. It was called the Ohio Clean Water Fund, which just, I mean, how can you take issue with that? Thousands of people all over the country, all over the country donated to this. People who were trying to do right by the people of East Palestine in the wake of this disaster. And they got scammed. And so did the people of East Palestine and so did that local food bank.

[Rachel Maddow]

And they were raising money, saying they were raising it for the food bank with the food bank. And that was totally untrue.

[Rob Lowe]

These guys raised more than $140,000. And something like 6.7% of that money actually ever got donated to East Palestine. 6.7%. The other 93 plus percent just went poof. Campaign staffers for Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia and New York Republican Congresswoman Elise Stefanik who is now Trump's choice for UN Ambassador. Campaign staffers for them were involved in raising money for this scam, Ohio Clean Water Fund. They were eventually ordered to pay tens of thousands of dollars in costs and restitution. In a settlement with the state Attorney General's office. They also got a four year ban on incorporating, operating or soliciting any soliciting for any charity in Ohio. Again, staffers for Elise Stefanik and Marjorie Taylor Greene, the guy who founded the scam and operated this thing claims that he did nothing wrong, but he got a lifetime ban on incorporating, operating or soliciting for any charity in Ohio. And he was forced to actually pay the money to the food bank and he had to pay $25,000 in restitution and costs and he had to shut down this sham charity, what the Ohio Attorney General called a sham. And it's just, it's just infuriating, right? I mean, if you live in East Palestine or even if you live somewhere else, but you were just moved to try to help those folks. You wanted to help them. I mean, to have a scammer tell you they were going to help, right? To tap the empathy of the American people who want to help, to also use the name, the good name of this good local food bank to do it and then just to screw everyone involved. It's just, it's just infuriating. And of course it does lasting damage.

[Rachel Maddow]

It affected this community a great deal. It shook a lot of confidence in people. To have someone from a local person be a scammer shook a lot of.

[Rob Lowe]

Confidence in people to have a local person be a scammer. The local scammer in question has just been hired by the Republican congressman who represents East Palestine, Ohio. The congressman in question is named Michael Ruley. R U L L I. He just hired as his new communications director on his congressional staff the same guy who founded and operated this scam charity, what the Ohio Attorney General called this, quote, sham charity that actively didn't provide clean water to people in East Palestine after raising tons of money for that purpose. After the train derailment in East Palestine, a charity claiming to raise money for Second Harvest Food bank was formed. The problem, the food bank. Never heard of them. The man who set up that charity, Mike Peppel, was accused of setting up an alleged fake charity two years after agreeing to pay tens of thousands in a settlement. Peppel is now Congressman Michael Roulley's Congressional communications director. He is now the congressional communications director for the local congressman in that area, which means the Tax dollars of the people of east palestine, Ohio are now paying the salary of that guy who scammed them. Because the local congressman for east Palestine thinks so highly of his constituents that he thinks the best spokesperson for his office as their congressman is the guy who just had to settle with the attorney general's office for scamming the people of east Palestine in their hour of their worst need. The head of the local food bank apparently cannot quite believe it. He told the Cleveland plain dealer, quote, he is now a communications director covering the same area that he scammed. It's almost laughable. It's a head shaker. It's like, what the hell is congressman Michael Roulley thinking? Indeed, what is congressman Michael Roulley of Ohio thinking? I mean, it's possible he's not thinking anything about this at all. I don't know how he thinks. The other thing it seems like congressman Rooley might be famous for in his district is a time last year when a teenage boy says congressman Rouley shot at him with a handgun while he was bow hunting near the congressman's property. The congressman says it was just a warning shot. And he says the kid was on his property, not near it. But nobody disputes that he fired his handgun. And nobody disputes that when the kid came back later that day with his mom and dad and his brother to retrieve his tree stand and his other hunting stuff. After the shots were fired, the congressman's wife then came out with yet another gun and fired again. The congressman's wife said in her case, it also was just warning shots. The kid's mom told the plane dealer, quote, all of a sudden a gun is fired at us again. She is screaming, get off my property. We were all shot at. Me, my husband and my two sons. That's like the other thing he's famous for in his district. So maybe, maybe congressman Michael Rouley of Ohio doesn't think much about what people in his district think of him. Maybe it doesn't matter to him that he has just put on his payroll a guy who is best known in east Palestine as the guy who ran the clean water scam that screwed the of east Palestine over and screwed over the local food bank too, At a time when the community was absolutely on its knees. Maybe he does not care about that. Maybe he doesn't even care how it looks. But I tell you this story tonight, not only because it's kind of one to grow on for this particular Ohio republican congressman and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Elise Stefanik. Just a good thing to know about them and how they run their congressional business. But I also tell you this story tonight because there's a lot of really excellent news coverage of this little scandal in the Cleveland plain [e-mail], at local channel 21, the local NBC news station, WFMJ at channel 27, the local CBS station, WKBN at the Vindicator, the local paper, the Vindi in nearby Youngstown, Ohio. And I don't know if that really high quality, well done local news coverage might eventually kindle a sense of shame in Congressman Michael Roulley. I don't know if that local coverage might create enough local outrage that he could feel pressured to reverse this decision and get that guy off his staff, because he's going to keep getting asked about it and he's going to find it hard to justify. I mean, I don't know, but it seems like there's a chance, right? If it gets covered, if everybody knows what happens, if he has to keep answering to it, maybe that'll change what he's doing. People in public office occasionally do terrible things. From time to time, we enter into a period where people in public office very frequently do lots of terrible things. What turns them around, what stops them from doing terrible things, what makes them correct course and start doing the right thing instead? One thing that sometimes works is shame and embarrassment, being confronted with the wrongness of what they are doing, feeling shame or embarrassment or at least the possibility of public rebuke and the awkwardness of being unable to explain their actions in a way that satisfies anyone. Sometimes you can't turn public officials around, but sometimes you can. Sometimes that sort of thing can cause public officials who are otherwise behaving in ways that are weak and wrong to find their spine and to change their minds. And that is why it may be important for our country as a whole and for the history of the American republic that the first full day of Donald Trump's second presidential term will was like this today for Republicans in Washington. Senator Scott, what do you make of President Trump's party? I haven't seen all of it. First off, so many people were fairly prosecuted.

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What about those that police officer?

[Rob Lowe]

Michael I don't believe anybody if you violate the law.

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What about those who assaulted police officers and then were pardoned by the president?

[Rob Lowe]

I haven't seen any. I haven't. I haven't gone to the detail. But there are those pardons that exist. I have to read it. I haven't seen any. I haven't gone into the detail. I have To. I have to read it. Very embarrassing for Senator Rick Scott today also turns out to be kind of a theme for the day. Senator Johnson, good morning. How are you feeling about some of the Trump's executive actions? Love them. Particularly I'm pardoned. Love them. What about the parties?

[Rachel Maddow]

I think they were absolutely justified. Again, I don't know all the cases.

[Rob Lowe]

I certainly don't want to pardon any.

[Rachel Maddow]

Violent actors, but there was a real.

[Brandon Johnson]

Miscarriage of justice here.

[Rob Lowe]

So I'm. Pardons for violent offenders. Are you comfortable with that?

[Rachel Maddow]

I haven't seen the details.

[Rob Lowe]

He went forward with pardons for violent offenders, though. Are you comfortable with that? I. I haven't seen the details. I love what he did. I Loving it, really. Do you know what he did? I haven't seen the details on the January 6th pardons. What message do you think the Ben sends to the Capitol Police officers who were assaulted on that day? Well, I saw where one family said that they felt it was an injustice, and I understand why they feel that way. What are your specific thoughts about President Trump's pardon? It's his authority and he using it. We're looking forward and beyond onto other policy issues. We're looking forward and beyond these questions on to other things that are not these questions, because these are questions I do not want to have to answer. Are you worried about cases like the leader, the proud boys, maybe the Oebers, folks that were convicted for 20, 30 years?

[Rachel Maddow]

Am I concerned about it? I mean, it's, again, it's not ideal, but I'm not overly concerned about it either. I think the gift is that it's all behind us now.

[Brandon Johnson]

We can stop talking about that.

[Rob Lowe]

Oh, is that the gift? The gift is that it's all behind us now and we can stop talking about it. It's not ideal, but, wow, what a gift. I'm not going to talk about it anymore. Is it a gift, though, Senator? Really? Because, you know, maybe everybody else thinks we should keep talking about it. How about we keep talking about it, Senator? There are a lot of senators who.

[Rachel Maddow]

Voiced concerns that they didn't want people who had committed violent crimes to not.

[Rob Lowe]

Get part of it.

[Rachel Maddow]

I didn't either, but they did. They did. And so we're going to move forward.

[Rob Lowe]

We're going to move forward. Yeah, I really do not want to talk about this. I said the gift here was that I could stop talking about this. Why do you keep. Why do you keep asking me? I said it was a gift. They really do not want to talk about it because there's no easy way to talk about it. I mean, what they are effectively going along with here, by not raising objections, by not standing up and saying this is wrong. I disagree. You shouldn't have done that. I dissent. What they're going along with here is something that they cannot justify. And so therefore they have no way to reasonably answer even very basic questions about it. And that turns out to be important because the stomach churning self loathing that all of those senators felt today, the shame and embarrassment that they felt today as they were asked and asked and asked again about the president of their party springing 211 people who were actively incarcerated in federal prisons, mostly for acts of violence against police officers, while they were taking part in a violent attack on the US Congress from which some of these same senators had to run for their lives. The feeling they are having that disgusting feeling of having to swallow this and try to come up with some way to try to stop talking about it because they can't say anything about it that doesn't disgust them and that isn't viscerally wrong. That feeling of being unable to say anything rational or true that justifies Trump throwing open the prison doors for 211 actively incarcerated people, many of whom were there for violently assaulting police officers. That feeling it created in senators when they were pressed on that, that sickening feeling maybe that maybe that is what will save the country or at least slow its descent. I don't know if that random Republican congressman in Ohio is going to change his mind and drop the guy off his payroll who ran the fake clean water scam against the poor people of East Palestine in his own district. I don't know if he's going to change his mind. But I know that the fact that there's so much local news coverage of it, I know that the fact that everyone in East Palestine and everyone in his district and everyone in Ohio now knows that he did this thing. I know that that coverage and everybody's awareness of what he did and the blatant unjustifiability of what he did, I know that that makes it more likely that he will reverse course. I don't know if he'll reverse course, but I know the attention to this and his inability to answer questions about it make it more likely that he will change. And that principle is at work here. Vice President J.D. vance, nine days ago, when he was just vice President elect, he went on TV and said that Donald Trump absolutely should not pardon people who committed violence on January 6th. If you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned, obviously. Obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. J.D. vance's running mate allowed him to go on television and say that obviously he shouldn't be pardoned. And then thereafter, after JD Vance had drawn that line in the sand, Trump gave a blanket pardon to everyone from January 6, including the people who beat police officers with two by fours and baseball bats. JD Vance said obviously that shouldn't happen. And then Trump did it anyway. JD Vance should be asked about that every time he pops his head out of his little mole hole from here until the end of his political career. Senator Lindsey Graham, same thing. To seek a pardon of these people would be wrong. It would be, I think it would destroy President Trump and I hope we don't go down that road. It would be wrong. It would destroy President Trump. We shouldn't go down that road. Senator Lindsey Graham should be asked about the fact that Trump did pardon these people every time he pops up in a Senate hallway. So should House Speaker Mike Johnson pled guilty and was charged with attacking an officer, supposed to get 12 years. He got less than one. Are you okay with that? It's not my place. It's the President's sole decision and he made a decision, pled guilty, charged with attacking officers, got 12 years in prison, ended up serving less than one. Are you okay with that? It's not my place. It's the President's decision. He made the decision. I don't want to say. Don't ask me. Please don't ask me. Donald Trump's excesses in this second term are not going to be constrained by the reactions of his critics. Right? The more his critics are upset, the happier he is. But the more friction he finds from people in his own party, the more people who are his supposed allies are embarrassed to be asked about his actions or find it difficult to explain why they're going along with what he's doing, or feel compelled by some little voice inside them that they ought to be saying no to what he's doing, that they ought to dissent. The more people feel the gut wrenching power of shame and embarrassment, being asked to explain the inexplicable, being asked to justify the unjustifiable, the slower his road to ruin may get. The pardons and commutations of the January 6th felons are dangerous on their face. People who turned in January 6th rioters to the authorities or testified against them in their trials, they're worried they're going to be stalked or attacked or worse by the people who Trump just Sprung from prison Officer Michael Fanon, who was tased in the neck until he had a heart attack during January 6th. Today he reportedly sought protective orders against some of the now released rioters who were convicted of assaulting him. The so called QAnon Shaman guy from Arizona. He reacted to news of his pardon today by posting this online. Now I'm going to buy some mother effing guns. Congressman Lauren Boebert earlier today offered to take pardoned January 6th convicts on a tour of the scene of the crime. She said she wanted to take them on a guided tour of the U.S. capitol Building at the moment that she said that the group she was addressing included one paramilitary leader who had just been released from what was otherwise an 18 year long federal prison sentence. It also included this gentleman who while she spoke was flashing the white power sign. An attorney who represents three of the January 6th defendants, including the 18 year sentence guy, he told reporters today, quote, our politics has always been violent. Violence is the norm in this country. That's the lawyers for these guys talking as his clients are released. Another lawyer for these guys was just appointed by Donald Trump to be the acting U.S. attorney for Washington D.C. so this is dangerous stuff. This is deliberately uncorking something in our country and in our political culture that we have seen happen in authoritarian countries abroad. We have not seen it happen here. But it also matters that the Trump nominee for Attorney General said these pardons would all be handled on an individual, case by case basis and that was the right way to do it. Pam Bondi should be asked about that, about her saying that's the way to handle this stuff. Every time she appears in public to talk about any single thing, or even if she's there in public to talk about nothing at all. Shame and embarrassment and the difficulty of answering unanswerable questions about indefensible things, those are breaks that can be tapped in our political system. Today in Washington, that brake pedal was hit. It was hit by Republicans. Members of Trump's own party deciding that they didn't want to answer these questions about this indefensible thing. Some of them, Mitch McConnell, Bill Cassidy, Lisa Murkowski, Thom Tillis, decided they would just come out and criticize the Partins decision. That actually happened today. And today an Episcopal bishop in Washington was brave enough to tell Trump and J.D. vance to their faces that the needs them to be decent and needs them to be merciful and that the country is afraid of what they're going to do. That bravery from that bishop today also hit the brake pedal just A little bit.

[Unnamed Episcopal Bishop]

Let me make One final plea, Mr. President. Millions have put their trust in you. And as you told the nation yesterday, you have felt the providential hand of a loving God. In the name of our God, I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country who are scared. Now, there are gay, lesbian and transgender children in. In Democratic, Republican and independent families, some who fear for their lives. And the people. The people who pick our crops and clean our office buildings, who labor in poultry farms and meat packing plants, who wash the dishes after we eat in restaurants and work the night shifts in hospitals. They. They may not be citizens or have the proper documentation, but the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals. I ask you to have mercy, Mr. President, on those in our communities whose children fear that their parents will be taken away.

[Rob Lowe]

There's Donald Trump and J.D. vance sitting there and listening, having to. I don't think you probably budged Donald Trump himself by calling on his better angels. But in Washington, in our politics, there's basically one way to make public officials who are otherwise behaving in ways that are weak or wrong and know it. It's basically one way to make them find their spine and change course. And it's to hound them relentlessly on the things they're doing that they know are wrong. First full day of Donald Trump's second term was today, and that's happening. That's a start.

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[Rob Lowe]

John Bolton. You remember him? Mustache guy? Donald Trump's former national security adviser. He's had a Secret Service detail protecting him for years, and that's not something national security advisers usually get, but he's had one because somebody tried to hire a hitman to kill him. That someone allegedly was the nation of Iran. DOJ charged a member of Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard with a murder for hire plot against John Bolton, and because of that, President Biden arranged for Bolton to have a Secret Service detail starting in 2021. And it's not just John Bolton who has faced that kind of threat, specifically from Iran. This is interesting. There's interesting reporting that some of the last warnings the outgoing Biden Homeland Security team gave to the incoming Trump team before the inauguration, some of their last warning were about Iranian threats to kill current and former U.S. government officials. So that was the last thing Biden's folks told Trump's folks before they walked out the door. And then one of the first things Trump did when he walked in the door is he canceled John Bolton's Secret Service protection. John Bolton responded today in part, quote, I am disappointed but not surprised that President Trump has decided to terminate the protection previously provided by the U.S. secret Service. Notwithstanding my criticisms of President Biden's now security policies, he nonetheless made the decision to extend that protection to me in 2021. Bolton says the threat to him from Iran remains and quote, the American people can judge for themselves which president made the right call. I should also mention that Trump also revoked John Bolton's security clearance as well as security clearances from a few dozen other former officials that Trump is mad at for various reasons. But you know who Trump is giving security clearances to? Really high level security clearances to anybody. Anybody who wants one. Step right up. No background check needed. Trump signed an executive order yesterday saying the White House will immediately grant the highest level of security clearance to personnel of the White House's choosing, whether or not those people have been vetted at all. Look under your seat, you get a security clearance. Speaking of security clearances, Tulsi Gabbard still doesn't have a date for her confirmation hearing to be Trump's Director of National Intelligence. It's still amazing to say Senate Republicans have blamed a paperwork problem. Okay. But there also continues to be stuff like this new hair raising reporting from the Washington Post, Today's reporting on Gabbard Cassidy doubt on her longtime explanation of a trip she took to Syria in 2017 as a congresswoman, a trip where she infamously met with the dictator Bashar al Assad and then came back and refused to say that he was a bad guy for bombing and gassing his own civilians. Gabbard has also said it was a surprise she didn't expect to meet Assad on that trip, but she said the opportunity arose once she was there and she just felt spur of the moment, like she should take it. The Washington Post's review today of documents and interviews with her congressional staff from the time show that she met with Assad basically immediately when she got there. She met with him for about three hours and then she met with him a second time, one of her staffers from the time telling the Post today, quote, I will go to the grave believing that she lied to us. Her claim is that it just sort of happened. How do you just happen to meet with the leader of a police state not once but twice? A Trump transition spokeswoman calls the Post story a, quote, deep state smear campaign filled with gross misrepresentation and conjecture. But someday soon, Republican senators are going to have to decide if this is the right person who should be in charge of all 18 US intelligence agencies. Joining us now is the journalist and author Tim Weiner. He's the author of the seminal history of the CIA Legacy of Ashes. His next book is called the mission of the CIA in the 21st century. It's out later this year. I can't wait. Tim, it's nice to see you. Thanks for being here.

[Rachel Maddow]

Hi, Rachel.

[Rob Lowe]

What do you make of the choice of Tulsi Gabbard to be the nominee to Be Director of National Intelligence.

[Rachel Maddow]

With the nomination of Tulsi Gabbard for Director of National Intelligence, Kash Patel for the FBI, Pete Hegseth for Defense, John Radcliffe for CIA. What you are seeing is an element of Trump's desire to decapitate the national security establishment of the United States.

[Rob Lowe]

Decapitate it, meaning disable it by putting.

[Rachel Maddow]

In empty heads in charge of it.

[Rob Lowe]

You've written so much about the structure and history of the CIA and also the FBI. Is the person at the top determinative in terms of not only the actions of the agency, but potentially the fates of these agencies and these functions.

[Rachel Maddow]

Once when I was in Afghanistan, a mujahideen said, we have an old saying in our country. The fish stinks from the head, which is a universal truth.

[Rob Lowe]

Yeah.

[Rachel Maddow]

If you put in charge of the American national security establishment crackpots and fools whose only qualification is their deathless loyalty to Donald Trump, you are not going to get good intelligence. We are in a very dangerous moment in this world. We are approaching a state of total war in this world. We have the axis of autocracy lining up against the Ukrainians, the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians, the North Korean lining up against Ukraine. You've got a moment where we have to have smoothly functioning intelligence. Intelligence is just a billion dollar word for information. The President is supposed to know and care what's going on over the horizon. The intelligence agencies, when they work, are in charge of anticipating surprise. So you don't get a bolt from the blue, as we've seen in our lifetimes. You cannot run an intelligence service if you are putting the people in charge and the people beneath them through loyalty oaths and ideological purity tests. This is what's happening in that executive order after he strips the national the security clearances of five former directors and deputy directors of CIA, three of the guys who ran very nervy operations against the Russians. Some of the best intelligence analysts of our lifetime. In the paragraph below, he says the Director of National Intelligence and the CIA director shall go into the ranks and root out people who are politically suspect. If you do that, you are going to have people running for the exits rather than submit to purity tests. And that's a dangerous thing.

[Rob Lowe]

What is the danger of giving out social, Giving out security clearances at the highest level as party favors to anybody who asks for them at the White House without any vetting?

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, if I were a foreign intelligence service allied with the United States, would I want to share secrets with Tulsi Gabbard or some 25 year old whose, you know, qualification is he wears a MAGA hat. I would not. I would think it would make the world a more dangerous place.

[Rob Lowe]

Tim Weiner's latest book on the CIA will be out this summer. Book me already for that. Tim, it's good to see you.

[Rachel Maddow]

Thank you, Rachel.

[Rob Lowe]

Thank you, thank you. We'll be right back. Stay with us.

[Tanks]

What's up podcast listeners? It's Tanks, host of the It's Me Tanks podcast. Join me weekly on It's Me Tanks as I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting, summer comparison, and pop culture's hottest takes. I don't shy away from getting candid about my personal experiences and I want to share all the advice I have learned with you. I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia Ashray, Connor Wood, and Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new Office Hours episodes. You can listen to It's Me Tanks every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show so you don't miss an episode.

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[Rob Lowe]

One of the things that new President Donald Trump is trying to do with a Day one executive order is he's trying to rescind something that's spelled out explicitly in the Constitution. The simple constitutional assertion that anybody born in the United states is a US citizen. It's been less than 24 hours since Trump signed that dubious order. There are already at least six major lawsuits challenging it. First today, we had 18 Democratic state attorney generals filing a lawsuit challenging that order. That was followed by four other state attorney generals filing another lawsuit against it as well. On top of those two, at least four other lawsuits have been filed by other groups, including the aclu. In addition to suing the Trump administration over that citizenship executive order, the ACLU is also one of the organizations that's trying to give very practical on the ground advice to people who may find themselves on the sharp end of the new administration on this subject. The ACLU is offering Know youw Rights training for immigrants in more than a dozen languages, instructing people on what they should do if they're stopped by an ICE agent or if law enforcement asks them about their immigration status. Another advocacy group, the immigrant rights group casa, has also set up a hotline where people can call in 24 hours a day and report it if deportation raids start happening around the country. But the front lines of this fight, the places where the most immediate action will have to be taken to defend people against this new administration's policies, looks like it's going to be in America's big cities. The Wall Street Journal reporting on Friday that the Trump administration planned to start its promised massive deportation raids in the city of Chicago. Last month, Trump's border czar guy Tom Homan said during a visit to Chicago, quote, we're going to start, and if the Chicago mayor doesn't want to help, he can step aside, but if he impedes us, I will prosecute him. Now, NBC News is reporting that the supposed deportation operation in Chicago has been postponed because of, quote, media leaks. Yeah, I don't think it counts as a leak if you say it into a microphone at a public event. But Trump's border czar himself was the one saying in public they were going to start right there in Chicago. Now he's complaining that it somehow leaked that they were going to start, and he's going to investigate the leaks. Get the man a mirror. Nevertheless, the city of Chicago has already started making efforts to try to protect its most vulnerable residents. The Chicago Board of Education is taking its own actions to protect immigrant students. Chicago Public Schools are holding their own Know youw Rights trainings for immigrant families. Chicago's elected leaders have signaled they're also ready for this fight. One of those leaders who's been threatened by the Trump administration personally but says he's ready for it, joins us here next.

[Brandon Johnson]

As a city of Chicago, we will not bow down to the oligarch. We will not bow down to a golden calf. We're going to stand up in the midst of these challenges and work to build a better, stronger, safer, more inclusive economy. Economy together. That controversial leadership is the leadership that we stand on today. And whether you are black, brown, white, Asian, young, old, you deserve a future where education is guaranteed, where public housing is guaranteed, where a good paying job is guaranteed. And even as the lawlessness gets revealed, so does the character of Chicago.

[Rob Lowe]

Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson, speaking as Donald Trump was being sworn in as president as part of Trump's threats in his second term to round up massive numbers of people, put them in huge camps and deport them. The Trump administration has said that it wants to target Chicago and that it also wants to target Mayor Johnson himself if he stands against it. Joining us now is Chicago mayor Brandon Johnson. Mr. Mayor, thank you so much for being here. I know there's a lot of demands on your time.

[Brandon Johnson]

Thank you for having me and Happy New Year, Rachel.

[Rob Lowe]

Thank you. You too. NBC News has reported that Trump's border czar, or whatever that job is, he now says that Chicago will not be the first city targeted with these massive deportation raids. He says that's because of media coverage of the fact that it was going to happen. That said, he says that Chicago should still be ready, that deportation raids will still happen in your city. How are you preparing for that?

[Brandon Johnson]

Well, we are certainly ready to defend and protect working people in Chicago, the city of Chicago. We see it as, you know, the global capital of the world. It is the heart and soul of America. A black Haitian immigrant fell in love with a Potawatomi woman and established a city at the post in the banks of the river. And these individuals, John Baptiste, Point Desabo and Kitty Ahawa, saw Chicago as this place where immigrants and those seeking a better life could find their future in the city of Chicago. And whether you were an immigrant or a descendant of slaves like my ancestry, who found their way up from Salus, Mississippi, in the city of Chicago, wanting a better future. And that's essentially what we are protecting in this moment. Working people across America are looking for leadership who understands the gravity of this moment. And what people are looking, looking for is a commitment to public education, a commitment to building more affordable homes, a commitment to making sure we have good paying jobs and access to health care. That's the work that we are doing in Chicago. And regardless of this presentation from this administration, we're not going to waver from that.

[Rob Lowe]

What do you say to immigrant communities in your big diverse city tonight who may be scared about showing up in public places, who might even be scared about sending their kids to school tonight, tomorrow? Can you reassure them or what should they know?

[Brandon Johnson]

Well, we have established a welcoming city here in the city of Chicago. We have reaffirmed our commitment to ensure that undocumented individuals will have the full protection of that ordinance. There's a complimentary law through the Illinois Trust act that ensures that the state of Illinois is a sanctuary state. As a former public school teacher, I find it unconscionable that this administration would attempt to create not just division, but fear within our public schools. And so I have directed all of our sister agencies as well as all of our departments to stand firm and to uphold the local ordinance. And so families should know that as the mayor of the city of Chicago, we're going to protect working people in the city. It's also reprehensible that this president is also committed to dismantling and destroying public education. He has said it as has said as much. He doesn't believe in public accommodations and he's committed to eradicating the Department of Public Education. And so that's why as mayor and as a former public school teacher, we have made incredible investments in our public schools to ensure that every single child as a social worker, counselors, small class sizes, a full rounded education. Because that's what the people of Chicago, that's what the people of America deserve and want in this moment. So families could be can be reassured that the working class will be protected in this city of Chicago.

[Rob Lowe]

Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson, thank you so much for your time tonight, sir. Again, I know time is precious. It's a busy time, a difficult time. Thanks for being here.

[Brandon Johnson]

You're welcome. Thanks so much.

[Rob Lowe]

I'll be right back. That's gonna do it for me tonight. In the meantime, you can find me on the social media platform bluesky mattow.msnbc.com@bluesky. I will see you again tomorrow night at 9pm Eastern. Hey, it's Mel Robbins, host of the Mel Robbins Podcast. Let's just cut to the chase. There is a change you want to make right now, but you're waiting to feel motivated. You don't need motivation. You've got me. You can change your life anytime you want. And when you're ready, the Mel Robbins Podcast is here to help you with inspiration and simple science backed tools to help you create a better life. Listen to me and you'll feel motivated. All right? Listen to the Mel Robbins podcast Now on the SiriusXM app. Download it today.