Shambolic transition, while not surprising, offers little for confidence in Trump's coming term

Summary

Summary of "Shambolic transition, while not surprising, offers little for confidence in Trump's coming term"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Rachel Maddow Show
• Host: Rachel Maddow, MSNBC
• Episode Title: Shambolic transition, while not surprising, offers little for confidence in Trump's coming term
• Release Date: December 10, 2024

---

Introduction: Assessing the Trump Transition

In the December 10, 2024 episode of The Rachel Maddow Show, host Rachel Maddow delves into the tumultuous transition period preceding Donald Trump's upcoming term. The episode, titled "Shambolic transition, while not surprising, offers little for confidence in Trump's coming term," critically examines the numerous missteps and controversial appointments that have emerged, casting doubt on the effectiveness and integrity of the new administration's foundational processes.

Problematic HR Practices and Suspicious Job Intake Forms

Maddow begins by highlighting alarming practices within the Human Resources (HR) departments involved in Trump's transition. She uses a hypothetical yet disturbing example of a job intake form that requires applicants to disclose personal and invasive personality traits.

Rachel Maddow [01:03]: "Imagine you're applying for a job... your potential new employer wants to know... do these personality characteristics apply to you?"

Maddow criticizes the inclusion of inappropriate questions such as:

• "I like to show off my body."
• "I have chronic feelings of emptiness."
• "I believe in things many others don't, like having a sixth sense, clairvoyance and telepathy."

These questions, she argues, are not only irrelevant but also discriminatory and invasive, raising serious concerns about the integrity of the hiring process within the Trump administration.

Controversial Appointments and Ethical Concerns

The discussion transitions to specific controversial appointments, notably within the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). Maddow references investigative reporting by Tara Palmieri at Puck News, revealing that Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s team is using these questionable intake forms to screen applicants.

Rachel Maddow [05:45]: "This intake form to go work with Donald Trump's choice for US Health Secretary answers the question about how much interest you have in sex in order to get your job with the Secretary of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services."

Further complicating the transition are figures like Matt Gaetz and Peter Navarro. Gaetz, initially nominated for Attorney General, had to withdraw amid felony convictions, a situation Maddow describes as a "tremendous humiliation for President-elect Trump."

Rachel Maddow [15:30]: "Trump transition has been amazing in all sorts of ways... He's doing new product launches for this stuff, while also expertly managing the presidential transition, which is going just great."

Assassination and Unabomber Connections

A particularly unsettling segment covers the arrest of a man involved in the assassination of a health insurance executive, who was found to be an enthusiastic follower of Theodore Kaczynski, the Unabomber.

Rachel Maddow [19:20]: "He is a professed Unabomber fan is unsettling... despite its acronym, is responsible not only for alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, but also explosives."

This association raises red flags about the qualifications and ideological leanings of certain nominees within the Trump transition team.

Interview with Ayman Mohaldin: The Fall of Assad and Middle East Implications

Midway through the episode, Maddow welcomes Ayman Mohaldin, a veteran reporter from Al Jazeera English who covered the Arab Spring and the eventual downfall of Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad.

Ayman Mohaldin [33:01]: "He was almost out of power in 2014, 2015... until the Russians and the Iranians and Hezbollah... came and saved him."

The discussion explores how Assad's exit was facilitated by weakened international alliances amidst broader geopolitical shifts, including Russia's entanglement in Ukraine and Iran's internal challenges.

Ayman Mohaldin [35:59]: "Each one of these players has been mired down in their own conflict... Russia has been bogged down in a war in Ukraine."

Mohaldin underscores the fragility of regional alliances and the potential for significant realignments in the Middle East as a consequence of Assad's ousting.

Trump's Threats Against Congressional Investigators

Returning to domestic politics, Maddow addresses President-elect Trump's statements regarding the January 6th investigation. Trump has publicly threatened to pardon individuals convicted of crimes related to the Capitol attack and to jail members of Congress involved in the investigation.

Rachel Maddow [43:29]: "This threat is an empty one and really pretty ridiculous if it is."

Maddow features an interview with Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, a key member of the January 6th Committee, who vehemently rejects Trump's threats.

Zoe Lofgren [43:20]: "Trump is not a believer in the rule of law... It's a really very destructive suggestion that we would pardon these criminals."

Lofgren emphasizes the importance of upholding the rule of law and condemns Trump's attempts to undermine legislative processes.

Background Checks and Nominee Scrutiny

In a late segment, Maddow discusses the Trump transition's eventual agreement with the Justice Department to conduct background checks on nominees—a concession made after initial resistance to traditional vetting processes.

Rachel Maddow [48:56]: "But they left themselves a brainworm's worth of wiggle room in there..."

Despite this development, there remains skepticism about the thoroughness and enforcement of these checks, especially as some nominees express reluctance to undergo scrutiny until changes in FBI leadership occur.

Rachel Maddow [48:56]: "We've asked Mr. Hegseth's attorney whether Hegseth volunteered for this FBI background check..."

Conclusion: A Troubling Transition

Rachel Maddow concludes the episode by reinforcing the chaotic and ethically questionable nature of Trump's transition. The accumulation of problematic appointments, combined with overt threats against democratic institutions and processes, paints a grim picture for the incoming administration.

Rachel Maddow [50:22]: "There is nothing about the quality of this presidential transition that should set anyone's mind at ease about how well America is going to be handling these matters."

---

Notable Quotes:

• Rachel Maddow [01:03]: "Imagine you're applying for a job... your potential new employer wants to know... do these personality characteristics apply to you?"
• Rachel Maddow [05:45]: "This intake form to go work with Donald Trump's choice for US Health Secretary answers the question about how much interest you have in sex in order to get your job."
• Ayman Mohaldin [35:59]: "Each one of these players has been mired down in their own conflict... Russia has been bogged down in a war in Ukraine."
• Zoe Lofgren [43:20]: "Trump is not a believer in the rule of law... It's a really very destructive suggestion that we would pardon these criminals."
• Rachel Maddow [48:56]: "We've asked Mr. Hegseth's attorney whether Hegseth volunteered for this FBI background check..."

---

This comprehensive analysis by Rachel Maddow underscores the challenges and controversies surrounding Donald Trump's transition, highlighting systemic issues that may hinder effective governance and erode public trust in the forthcoming administration.

Transcript

[Advertiser]

It's the holiday season and the perfect time to gift yourself with a new home for the new year. For a limited time, take advantage of incredible savings and incentives during Dr. Horton's it's yous Year Savings event going on now through December 22nd. Your perfect home for every holiday season is waiting for you. To find yours, visit any of our participating Dr. Horton communities or visit [e-mail] and discover the Dr. Horton difference. Dr. Horton America's Builder, an equal housing opportunity builder.

[Delta Air Lines Representative]

From the Delta Sky Club. Welcome back Ms. Klein, to the JetBridge. Delta Air Lines relies on 5G solutions from T Mobile for business to power operations and serve customers faster. Together we're putting 5G into the hands of ground staff so they can better assist on the go travelers with real time information throughout the airport. This is elevating customer experience. This is Delta Air Lines with T Mobile for Business. Take your business further@t mobile.com now.

[Host]

Thanks Stuart Home for joining us this hour. Really happy to have you here. So have you ever had an HR issue at work? Human Resources I feel like the poor human resources people get a really bad rap. They have to deal with all the worst and most annoying stuff that happens in the workplace. Nobody sees the HR department when they're at their best, right? But they do a really important job. You need them. There has to be somebody to call. There has to be somebody to intervene when things go really wrong or really weird in the workplace. Por Ejemplo Imagine you're applying for a job. You want to get hired on at a new company and you are asked to detail for your new employer your personality characteristics. They ask you to fill out an intake form and specifically they ask you to disclose on this intake form to your potential new employer if these specific personality characteristics you think apply to you. I like to show off my body. I like to look at myself in the mirror. Is that one of your personality characteristics? Your potential new employer wants to know wants you to put in writing, do these personality characteristics apply to you? I don't have that much interest in having sexual experiences with another person. Excuse me, Sorry again. This is from your boss, from your would be boss asking you these questions asking if these so called personality characteristics okay, apply to you. And these questions are being asked of you as part of you applying for a job. Another personality characteristic. This application, this intake form asks you about. It asks you if you would describe yourself this way. Quote I consistently use my physical appearance to draw attention to myself. Quote I have chronic feelings of emptiness. Quote I love Large parties. Quote I leave a mess in my room. My room. What room? Quote I do not enjoy going to art museums. Quote I get upset when people don't notice how I look when I go out in public. You're applying for a job and you're asked to declare these things, whether these are your characteristics. Here's my favorite one again, what your employer is asking in considering whether or not you're going to be hired, whether or not you're super suited for a job, does this personality trait apply to you? I believe in things many others don't, like having a sixth sense, clairvoyance and telepathy. And as an adolescent, I had bizarre fantasies or preoccupations. That's all one thing that is listed as all one personality trait per this question, this intake form, it's believing in telepathy. So like ESP and clairvoyance and also having bizarre adolescent fantasies and preoccupations, those are all listed as one thing. And what do you say? You're really trying to be honest. You really want this job? It's really important to you. What do you say to your would be employer, your would be boss when you're asked that one? I mean, are you allowed to say yes? I was preoccupied as an adolescent with wanting to paint myself blue or something, right? But no, I don't believe in esp. Are you allowed to say that? Are you allowed to say split it up or are you allowed to say, yes, I definitely believe in telepathy. For example, I'm controlling you with my mind right now. But no, when I was 12, I just wanted to be a fireman like everyone else. I mean, can you split it up? Are you allowed to question the question? What do you tell your would be boss if only half of this individual trait applies and this is the intake form that you are filling out to try to get a job. HR gets a bad rap. I know nobody likes the idea of going to HR for anything, but if you're applying for a job and your would be boss asks you as part of the job application process, if you like to, quote, show off your body. If your would be boss asks you how interested you are in sex and this would be boss wants you to put the answer in writing and submit it to the company, call hr, right? I mean, nobody wants to, but honestly, call hr, maybe call the cops. I mean, definitely don't take that job. But that, that I just showed you. The Trump transition has now confirmed that that is the questionnaire that is being administered to people who want to work for the US Government in the second term of Donald J. Trump. Tara Palmieri at Puck News was first to report and first to get confirmation from the Trump transition that people interested in applying for jobs under Trump's choice to lead the Department of Health and Human Services. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. People are being given this intake form. They are being given this personality characteristics quiz as an intake form for getting a job with rfk. Does this personality characteristic apply to you? I tend to have unstable and intense personal relationships where I alternate between extremes of idealizing and devaluing others. What does this personality characteristic apply to you? I don't have much interest in having sexual experiences with another person. Seriously, this intake form to get to go work with Donald Trump's choice for US Health Secretary answer the question about how much interest you have in sex in order to get your job with the Secretary of the U.S. department of Health and Human Services. The intake form appears to be a product produced by a far right Canadian podcaster. While we're on the subject of health, he famously says he flew himself to Russia and Serbia for what he described as emergency drug detox that included putting himself into a coma. He also famously reportedly adopted what he and his daughter market as the quote, lion diet. L I O n lion diet. The diet consists entirely of beef, salt and water. That's all you eat. Did I mention he's advising the health department his intake form about how much you like showing off your body and how much interest you have in sex? That is apparently now being used to screen applicants for jobs with the US Government for the health part of the US Government, which Trump wants to be led by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Who does say a worm ate part of his brain and then died in there. And the whole experience, in his telling, dramatically reduced his cognitive capacity. The Los Angeles Times is now reporting that Kennedy also recently approached this man and asked this man to apply for a job at the fda and the man says he's done it now. Is it the same intake? I don't know. Maybe applying for a job at the FDA at the invitation of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Means you have to do the how much do you like sex intake form. We don't know. But the reason the LA Times thought it was a news story of some importance that Kennedy asked this man in particular to apply for a job at the FDA is because this man in particular is California's best known raw milk producer with some significant health consequences for the people of California. Quote, three raw milk recalls last month were the result of positive tests for H5N1 bird flu among McAfee's cows. His farms have since been quarantined. The state has suspended all sales of raw milk and cream. His company has voluntarily issued recalls for all remaining milk and cream products in stores. Since 2006, his company has been involved in 13 different recalls. McAfee's farm is also involved in at least 11 different lawsuits stemming from a salmonella outbreak that sickened 171 people, mostly children. In addition to the bird flu recalls, the other recalls affecting his company were the result of bacterial contamination, including E. Coli, listeria, camphylobacter, and, as I mentioned, salmonella. In some cases, people became severely ill with hemolytic uremic syndrome, aka kidney failure. Mr. McAfee said if he were selected for an advisory role at the fda, which RFK has invited him to apply for, he says he would, quote, look into changing food liability laws, quote, where you can't go get a million dollars for somebody that gets diarrhea for a week. Oh, yum. What's the FDA for again? So 13 recalls, E. Coli, Listeria, Campylobacter, 171 people with Salmonella. Have you ever had Salmonella? Three bird flu recalls. His farms are quarantined. His products are right now barred from sale after making so many people sick. But if he gives the right answer to the questions about, you know, do you like to show off your body? Do you ever have feelings of emptiness? This man could be heading to the don't complain to us about your diarrhea desk at the new Food and Drug Administration as styled and conceived by the second term of Donald J. Trump. Yeah, how's the transition going? How professional and well organized is this thing turning out to be, huh? And we've already had and forgotten the scandal of a close advisor to the President elect being accused by the transition of offering presidential appointments to senior positions in the government for sale for cash. One of the people reportedly championed by that advisor, who was reportedly selling appointments is a guy who was named to be White House counsel not that long ago. But then the president elect changed his mind and unannounced him as the choice for White House counsel and said instead he'll be working on Elon Musk's government Efficiency Board. He demoted him down to go work with Elon. Well, how are things going over there? Well, the New York Times reports this weekend that the office manager from Elon Musk's family office has been doing the interviewing for high ranking foreign affairs positions in the U.S. state Department. The office manager for Elon Musk's family office is hiring for senior positions at the State Department in foreign policy. What are his qualifications for doing that? I will quote the New York Times. Quote. I will quote the New York Times. The man has, quote, no experience in foreign affairs. None at all. But he does manage Elon Musk's family office. And so why shouldn't he be the man who chooses who's in charge of the U.S. state Department? That's kind of how things are going. Elon Musk's mother, his actual mom, by training a model, she says she has also been sitting in on meetings of the Department of Government Efficiency as the group is getting stood up. So Elon's mom is part of that. Clearly a super professional operation over there. The highest profile nomination Trump is likely to make for his new administration was always going to be his choice for Attorney General. Right. It's a pretty key position when the president elect himself has recently been convicted on 34 felony counts. Trump's choice for that position, of course, Matt Gaetz had to withdraw from consideration just a few days after he was named. That was a tremendous humiliation for President elect Trump, especially because Trump himself was personally reportedly making calls to individual Republican senators asking them personally himself that they should support Gates despite his personal calls on Gates behalf. It did not work. Gates had to withdraw his nomination. I mean, it was even more humiliating for the vice President elect. Vice President elect JD Vance was chosen to personally physically walk Matt Gaetz up and down the halls of the Senate to accompany him to meetings with Republican senators in person. And that also did not work. There's a reason you don't put the number one and number two people right there personally alongside your least likely to succeed nominee. It's because it's a huge in your face humiliation for the president elect personally and for the vice President elect personally when their efforts don't work and he fails out. In the Gates case, though, to add insult to injury, that totally botched attempted nomination also left an ethical and reputational bomb behind from Republican members of Congress, who, even after Matt Gaetz was gone, they still had to vote to keep secret the House Ethics Committee's findings in their investigation of the child sex trafficking allegations against Matt Gaetz. Right. Very important to keep that information secret and make sure that nobody in the public ever finds out the facts. And so now all of these Republicans have on their records, their individual votes to keep secret the evidence and the facts discovered about this congressman's alleged involvement in child sex trafficking. So, yeah, that Worked out great for everybody, right? Good job. Trump transition. This was another of the excellent own goals from the Trump transition thus far. One of the Republican senators who they're really counting on to lead the charge for Trump's nominees, a senator who's really been out there in front for them saying every one of Trump's choices is somebody who should be confirmed and all the Republicans should vote for them. The guy who's really been most out front for them, leading everything, is this senator. His name is often mispronounced. Tuberville. It is not Tuberville. It is Tuberville. His name is Tommy Tuberville, the senator from Alabama. There's more rumors up there going around about Matt Gaetz and Pete Hedsteth and even all of them will have some kind of rumor when it comes down to it. But we've got to look at facts, but we got to help President Trump. He's not going to pick somebody that's a criminal. He's not gonna do that. Oh, is that so? Is he not gonna do that again? That's a senator they need. That's the guy sort of whipping the votes and telling all the other Republicans they need to vote for every Trump nominee. What's that last thing he said again? Play that again. He's not gonna pick somebody that's a criminal. He's not gonna do that. He's not gonna pick somebody that's a criminal. Right after Senator Tuberville said that Trump in fact named a convicted felon, his relative Charles Kushner, to be the ambassador to France, followed very shortly by Trump naming Peter Navarro to be his new trade advisor. Mr. Navarro just got out of federal prison this summer. He's not going to pick somebody that's a criminal. He's not going to do that. Yes, yes, yes, he is. Yes, he is, Senator. Multiple times he is going to do that. But he's going to wait until right after you say on television that he's not going to do that. To do it so as to make it maximally embarrassing and insulting to you personally. He's going to wait till you say he's not going to appoint a criminal and then he's going to appoint a criminal and then he's going to appoint another one. Right after you said that on television with everybody listening and they really need you. The Trump transition has been amazing in all sorts of ways. The Wall Street Journal today ran a feature on the various and dubious pills and potions being sold by multiple Trump nominees for high hon office. Some of them continuing to shill for this stuff even after they've been named as a choice for a high position in the government. Trump's surgeon general choice has her line of celebrity vitamins, which she sells on Instagram. They've got her picture on the label. Trump's would be Medicare chief, who will sell you any number of things that might cure your Alzheimer's or your thyroid ailments or might make the fat melt away like magic. Trump's choice for FBI director, who will sell you pills that reverse the COVID vaccine. Sure. Because, sure, the president elect himself is still selling stuff during the transition as well. Literally since the election, he has been rolling out new products and hawking stuff online. He's still selling the Bibles and the watches and the sneakers and the commemorative coins and whatever. But since the election, he has branched out into selling commemorative guitars. Literally since winning the election and becoming president elect, he started selling guitars this weekend. He literally started selling smells, new Trump fragrances, Trump branded odors in a bottle. He's doing new product launches for this stuff, while also expertly managing the presidential transition, which is going just great. And the news, like, sometimes intrudes on this comedy of errors and embarrassment. Today we have news of a young man being arrested and charged in conjunction with the assassination of a health insurance executive in midtown Manhattan. This young man has been charged with forgery and a firearms offense. At this point, and with people looking for a possible motive or an explanation for that crime, one of the things in this guy's Internet history that's gotten a lot of attention today is a very enthusiastic review he appears to have given to the manifesto of the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, who killed three people and injured nearly 23 others and injured 23 others in a bombing campaign that spanned more than 15 years. This young man arrested today, he has not been charged with the killing of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. We don't yet know if he will be charged with that killing. But if it is him, the fact that he's a professed Unabomber fan is unsettling. I might venture that it's even more unsettling that Donald Trump's reported choice to run the ATF is also a self professed fan of the Unabomber.

[Advertiser]

Do you have a subversive thinker that you think people should look up, look into, know more about that's, you know, underrated and would, yeah.

[Host]

Would influence people in a good direction? Subversive thinker. That's underrated. Yeah.

[Guest]

I'll probably get in trouble for saying this? No, I mean, I'd say, how about, like, Theodore Kaczynski?

[Host]

Theodore Kaczynski. Blake Masters later admitted, quote, probably not great to be talking about the Unabomber while campaigning. Just to be clear that he knew that when he was talking about Theodore Kaczynski, he's talking about the Unabomber. Underrated thinker. People should look into him. People should look into an underrated thinker that would influence people in a good direction. Unabomber fan reportedly Trump's choice to lead the atf, which, despite its acronym, is responsible not only for alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, but also explosives. Sure, why not put the Unabomber fan in charge of the federal agency that regulates explosives. We've also had news in the last few days that Trump has his choice made for his special envoy for hostage affairs. Incredibly serious job, Literally life or death stakes every single day and every single circumstance in which that envoy works. Just an unbelievably sensitive position in the US Government. For that job, his special envoy for hostage affairs, Donald Trump, has reportedly chosen Jared Kushner's college roommate. Sure, why not? And I mean, as long as we're talking about the news intruding on this reverie, we've also just had the fall of Syria and the exile of the longtime Syrian dictator considered responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians in his country, the torture and unjust incarceration of tens of thousands of people, many in secret prisons. Bashar al Assad has just been thrown out of office by an uprising in Syria. He has fled the country. Russia says he's gone to Moscow. And maybe he has. But here in the midst of the Trump transition, Bashar al Assad's highest profile champion and apologist and propagandist in the United States is Trump's choice to be the nation's next director of National Intelligence. I mean, there's Tulsi Gabbard today meeting with senators on Capitol Hill while the news is coming down that the Butcher of Damascus has fled Syria and gone to Moscow. And every one of those senators has to be looking Tulsi Gabbard up and down and thinking, oh, if this had happened one year from today, would Assad be going into exile here? Would his best friend in America, Tulsi Gabbard, have us taking him in? I mean, maybe under Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard and President Donald Trump, Bashar al Assad could split his exile time between here and Moscow. All the old hands and sort of gray beards in American news and politics, particularly people with experience in national security and foreign policy. They will all tell you the same thing about the presidential transition period. They will all tell you that the transition times between one president and the next, those are often times when things go haywire. And this transition is not proving to be a disappointment along those lines. I mean in the blink of an eye, we've had the government collapse in Germany, we've had the government collapse in France. We have had the imposition of martial law and an attempted overthrow of the government in South Korea. We have had the top toppling of the Assad regime and potentially a wholesale realignment of all the major powers in the Middle east. All while we are in between the end of one presidency and the beginning of another. But don't worry, Elon Musk's mom is sitting in on the meetings and Jared just got both his ex con dad and his college roommate really cool jobs. And people have almost forgotten about the child sex trafficking attorney general nomination and the other guy supposedly selling presidential appointments. And the rape allegation in the police report about the Defense Secretary nominee and the Unabomber fan for the explosives job. And the health secretary who says a worm ate part of his brain and then died in there. Now asking potential hires into the US government how much they like sex and do they like to show off their bodies. I mean, it is a complicated and dangerous world out there, especially right now. There is nothing about the quality of this presidential transition that should set anyone's mind at ease about how well America is going to be handling these matters. But for us, all the more reason for us to try to understand them as best we can. So hold that thought. We've got more heads.

[Delta Air Lines Representative]

For more than 90 years when crises strike, from war and violence to floods and famine, the International Rescue Committee has been there helping displaced families survive, recover and rebuild. The IRC responds within 72 hours of an emergency and stays as long as needed, providing humanitarian aid to millions of families. Right now in crisis stricken places like Gaza, Lebanon, Afghanistan and Ukraine, severe winter weather is putting displaced families at even greater risk. Many makeshift camps can't withstand the extreme cold. Some people live without reliable electricity while others can't afford the fuel to heat their homes. Pregnant women, children, the elderly and people with disabilities are especially vulnerable. Your tax deductible donations can help the IRC provide critical resources. Emergency food, clean water, shelter, fuel, medicine, blankets, winter gear and cash assistance you can give confidently. Because the IRC is consistently awarded top marks by charity watchdog groups for their efficient use of donor contributions. Donate today by visiting rescue.orgrebuild that's rescue.orgrebuild.

[Planned Parenthood Representative]

This podcast is supported by Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Planned Parenthood Federation of America exists so all people can get access to the sexual and reproductive care and education they need. Planned Parenthood organizations advocate for health equity and policies that allow people the freedom to control their own bodies, lives and futures. More than 2 million patients a year rely on Planned Parenthood Health center services like STI testing and treatment, birth control, gender affirming care, abortion, cancer screenings and more. Reproductive health care and rights are under attack from public officials who are out of step with the will of the vast majority of Americans. The constitutional right to abortion has been stolen and politicians in 47 states have introduced bills that would block people from getting the sexual and reproductive care they need. Planned Parenthood knows that equitable access to health care, including safe, legal abortion, is a human right. Right now, Planned Parenthood needs your help to protect access to health care. Donate today by visiting plannedparenthood.org protect it's.

[Advertiser]

The holiday season and the perfect time to gift yourself with a new home for the new year. For a limited time, take advantage of incredible savings and incentives during Dr. Horton's it's yous Year savings event going on now through December 22nd. Your Perfect Home for every holiday season is waiting for you. To find yours, visit any of our participating Dr. Horton communities or visit us at Dr. Horton.com and discover the Dr. Horton difference. Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal Housing opportunity builder.

[Host]

Started in Tunisia. A young man set himself on fire in the middle of the street as an act of protest against Tunisia's dictatorship, which had been in power for more than two decades. Just a horrific thing and a desperate thing. And somebody recorded it on their cell phone and then posted the video online. And then that turned into something. Within days, that young man's neighbors were in the streets, holding up his picture, chanting his name, saying they too were fed up with the dictatorship. They were fed up with there being no job prospects and no healthcare and all the corruption. And then it grew into big protests. Protests of mostly young people. They were angry. They were upset with how bad life is under authoritarian rule. Within weeks, those protests enveloped the country. The dictatorship responded like dictatorships always do. They responded violently, cracked down on the protesters, they killed protesters. But it just kept going. And eventually, Tunisia's authoritarian leader, who had been in power for 24 years, he gave up. He fled the country. The protesters won. And it didn't stop there. Pro democracy protests ripped through The Middle east in 2011, in Bahrain, in Yemen, in Sudan, in Jordan, in Libya, even in Saudi Arabia. And of course in Egypt. If you remember stuff from this era, it is probably Egypt that you first remember. Like in Tunisia, protests in Egypt started out peacefully. Protesters camping out in Cairo in Tahrir Square. They said they were going to refuse to leave until their president stepped down. And then like in Tunisia, the regime cracked down. Tahrir Square became a battleground. Civilians against their own country's military grade force, pro democracy. Protesters being beaten and killed. That went on for weeks. And ultimately the protests worked. They toppled a 30 year dictatorship.

[Guest]

They've been saying the slogan that has come to symbolize the demands of the people. In Arabic it is Hawaiim Sheikh, which means he must leave or he shall leave.

[Host]

The Arab Spring is one of those indelible times in history that just completely reoriented the world. Regimes are ultimately toppled in Tunisia and in Egypt and in Libya and in Yemen, eventually in Sudan also. Did you recognize that guy? Recognize that guy there? In 2011, before he became our beloved friend and colleague here at msnbc, Ayman Mohaldin was a reporter for Al Jazeera English throughout the Arab Spring. He reported daily from Tahrir Square in Egypt. At one point, he was detained by the Egyptian police. He was blindfolded and handcuffed. He was left on the floor for hours. Amon was an essential voice for the whole world during the Arab Spring. I mean, for many of us in the west, he became our eyes and ears for what was happening halfway around the world. Not only seeing it and reporting it, but explaining it during the protests. We had him here on this show several times, reporting live from Cairo and NBC because there are no dummies. Soon they recruited him to come here and work instead for us. And now today, as another dictatorship falls, yet another where the protests against him started in 2011, but in Syria, it took this long for him to fall. What a privilege it is to be able to talk with Eamon, this time as a colleague, about what this means and about how it has all happened. Joining us now is Ayman Mohaddin. I first met him while he was reporting live from Egypt and from Syria in 2011. He of course, is now a beloved colleague here at msnbc. Eamon. Thank you, Rachel.

[Guest]

It's great to see you.

[Host]

I didn't warn you we were going to do a little show. I did not know.

[Guest]

I did not know. I should have a lot younger, a lot lighter, a lot less gray hairs.

[Host]

Yeah, no, you're one of those people, that just gets better and better. By the time you're 90, you're going to be, like, people's sexiest man. It's just going to happen. It's going to be a chronological progression. Well, let me ask you, I mean, you. You recovered the origin of the revolt against Assad in 2011. Why did Assad end up leaving 13 years down the road?

[Guest]

Well, he was almost out of power in 2014, 2015, and for a whole series of mistakes that happened at the time and decisions that were made by his allies, he was able to thwart the revolution that was coming to his doorstep in 2014. I think. I think it's important to remind our viewers that these protests, as you mentioned, started out peacefully. Even in Syria, they started out peacefully. In fact, it was a young student who ripped a picture of Bashar al Assad in Daraa in 2011 that ultimately led to mass street protests, to which he then used force and began a violent crackdown. But the protests began with defectors of his own army who said, hey, we don't want to be a part of cracking down on our own citizens. And that's what really gave birth to the Free Syrian army at the time. But. But what really changed the course was that he began to use overwhelming force to kill without any kind of hesitation. And as the militancy of the revolution grew, so did his ability to thwart it, until ultimately he was defeated. And the Russians and the Iranians and Hezbollah, the allies, if you will, his foot soldiers from Hezbollah, his financiers from Iran, his diplomats and the air force of Russia came and said, okay, we have to save this guy. He's about to lose complete power.

[Host]

So he was about to be pushed out when Russia and Iran came in, marshaled their forces to prop him up.

[Guest]

Absolutely. They were on the doorsteps of the cities that they took over. Homs. In fact, Homs was considered the birthplace of the revolution. They had gotten to Homs, and that was a major red line for the Russians. Of course, there was the time and to kind of. Of bringing America into this. There was the famous red line from President Obama that Bashar al Assad was going to use chemical weapons. America would get involved. He used chemical weapons. America did not get involved. And all of the allies of Bashar.

[Host]

Al Assad, Obama put it to Congress and said, right, shall we go? And Congress was like, no. And then Congress was all mad that he didn't go, even though he asked them to vote for it.

[Guest]

Absolutely. And so what ultimately ended up happening is the Russians. Hezbollah and Iran came to his defense, and they cracked down on the revolution, pushed it back all the way to the northern border with Turkey, and created this stalemate that we had been living in for the past 10 years or so from 2016 on.

[Host]

And I feel like the thing that was so shocking, I think, to people who haven't been following it closely, and I know you have, was to see the resolve and the commitment of Iran and Russia just melt away. That when the tide started to turn this year, within the last few weeks, Iran evacuated its people even ahead of Damascus falling. Nobody exactly knew what Russia, Russia was going to do. I think even as recently as last week, there was still an expectation that you might see the Russian Air Force marshal its forces again and level some more Syrian cities and kill thousands more Syrian civilians. But instead, Russia pulled its people out, too. To what do you attribute the collapse of his international alliances that, as you say, had made it possible for him to even be there for the last 10 years?

[Guest]

Well, each one of these players has been mired down in their own conflict, in their own arenas. I mean, Russia has been been bogged down in a war in Ukraine for three years, losing hundreds of thousands of soldiers, diplomatically exhausted, financially taxed for that war. Hezbollah has been in a war with Israel for the past 14 months. It has been decimated, its command and control structure completely wiped out for the time being. They literally do not have the foot soldiers to send across the border to Syria to fight. And Iran right now is surveying this landscape of a new Middle east in which they have an incoming president of the United States that they're probably weary of. They have lost their foothold in southern Lebanon with Hezbollah. The Houthis are a little bit not as strong of a resource for them to deploy. Their last card to play in the region, perhaps, is Iraq. And there was some talk and there were some leaders of Iraqi militia groups that had said they wanted to go to Syria to fight on behalf of Bashar al Assad. Luckily, that did not happen. And that is a mystery in this equation because it speaks to where the Iraqi government is right now. And perhaps realizing there's a shifting orientation in the region, not necessarily to be close to Iran and perhaps say, hey, wait a minute, let's not rush to protect Bashar al Assad just yet. And we're able to keep their militias on their side of the border. So I think when you look at all of these different players, everybody is bogged down into their own kind of internal conflicts. Israel is certainly acting with impunity in Syria, in Lebanon, across the region. America has kind of given it a green light. And so we're seeing this redrawing, if you will, of the maps of the Middle east, but more importantly, the breaking of what Iran and its allies call the axis of resistance.

[Host]

Right. Exactly. To have this axis of resistance, Russia and Iran and others, and not only their conventional forces, but their proxies, it's one thing to see that alliance and to know the threat that that represents to the Western led order. It's another thing to see a collapse of its own weight. Just incredibly dramatic. Eamon Muhaldin, it's great to have you here, my friend.

[Guest]

Thank you, Rachel. Thank you.

[Host]

Thanks for having me on your show this weekend.

[Guest]

Anytime. My show is your show.

[Host]

Okay. And vice versa. All right. We'll be right back. Stay with us.

[Advertiser]

It's the holiday season and the perfect time to gift yourself with a new home for the new year. For a limited time, take advantage of incredible savings and incentives during Dr. Horton's it's your year savings event going on now through December 22nd. Your perfect home for every holiday season is waiting for you. To find yours, visit any of our participating Dr. Horton communities or visit [e-mail] and discover the Dr. Horton difference. Dr. Horton, America's builder, an equal housing opportunity builder.

[Delta Air Lines Representative]

From hobby farmers to weekend gardeners and everyone in between. Tractor Supply Trust 5G Solutions from T Mobile for business to make shopping more personal. Together we're connecting over 2200 stores with 5G business Internet and powering AI so team members can match shoppers with products faster.

[Host]

You're all set.

[Delta Air Lines Representative]

This is enriching customer experience. This is Tractor Supply with T Mobile for business. Take your business further@t mobile.com now.

[Planned Parenthood Representative]

Holiday magic is in the air and DSW's.

[Advertiser]

Got all the shoes to make your season extra merry.

[Planned Parenthood Representative]

Believe you've got parties to attend and lists to check twice. So DSW is taking care of the.

[Advertiser]

Details like gifts to make their eyes all aglow.

[Planned Parenthood Representative]

Styles that bring joy to your world. Brands everyone wants like Ugg, Nike, Birkenstock and more. And deals to make your budget bright. Find the perfect shoes for you and yours at a DSW store near you or dsw.com.

[Host]

This is a man from Flint, Michigan who went to Washington on January 6, 2021. And while he was there, he physically attacked police officers at the U.S. capitol. That Michigan man armed with that bat, that weapon that he was using to try to smash police officers in the face and in the head he was ultimately arrested. He was charged with assaulting, resisting or impeding certain police officers and inflicting bodily injury, meaning he hurt the police officers he was attacking. He pled guilty. He's currently in federal prison serving a sentence of more than four years. President elect Donald Trump has repeatedly said that he wants to pardon the people who are convicted of crimes for the attack on Congress on January 6, 2021. This weekend, NBC News Kristen Welker asked Trump what he specifically intends to do about people like that Michigan guy, about people who were convicted specifically of assaulting police officers. KRISTEN Welker, quote, 169 of them have pled guilty to assaulting police officers. TRUMP because they had no choice. WELKER but you're going to consider pardoning even those who pled guilty to crimes, including assaulting police officers? TRUMP well, sometimes they say, here's your choice, Welker, you're not ruling it out? TRUMP Look, I know the system. The system's a very corrupt system. So, yeah, apparently even those who attacked police officers. In that same interview, Trump also told Welker that he's looking forward to jailing people who he sees as his political enemies. And one of the specific people he threatened is going to join us live here next. Stay with us. This weekend, President elect Donald Trump said that he wants to jail members of Congress who carried out the bipartisan congressional investigation into the January 6th attack. He told NBC's Kristen Welker, quote, I think those people committed a major crime. Honestly, they should go to jail. In response to those comments from the president elect, former Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney, who was vice chair of that investigation, she released this statement, which I think you might have heard. She released a statement. It's worth hearing it in full. She said this. Here's the Donald Trump attempted to overturn the 2020 presidential election and seize power. He mobilized an angry mob and sent them to the United States Capitol, where they attacked police officers, invaded the building and halted the official counting of electoral votes. Trump watched on television as police officers were brutally beaten and the Capitol was assaulted, refusing for hours to tell the mob to leave. Donald Trump knows his claims about the Select Committee are ridiculous and false. There's no conceivably appropriate factual or constitutional basis for what Donald Trump is suggesting. A Justice Department investigation of the work of a congressional committee and any lawyer who attempts to pursue that course would quickly find themselves engaged in sanctionable conduct. Joining us now is California Democratic Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren. She was a member of the House January 6th Investigation Representative Lofgren, it's a real pleasure to have you here tonight. Thank you for making the time.

[Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren]

Thanks. Glad to be here.

[Host]

Rachel, let me just start by asking your reaction to Trump's threats, to Trump's claim that he thinks that you and the other members of Congress who are part of the investigation should be jailed.

[Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren]

Well, it's absurd. You know, our committee was duly constituted. We worked really hard to do the job we were assigned to do, which was to uncover the events leading up to January 6th. We uncovered a wide ranging plot with Trump at the center of that plot to essentially steal the election, to overturn it, culminating in his summoning a mob to Washington, knowing that they were armed, sending them down to the Capitol to stop the proceedings. You know, more than 1,000 of those rioters have pled guilty. They, they did terrible things to police officers. They beat them, they sprayed them with chemicals, they tased them. Officers lost fingers, lost an eye, were permanently disabled. You know, go to the Department of Justice case files and read the summary of what these guys did, that he would think about pardoning them while trying, in violation of the law and the Constitution. Constitution. To somehow suggest that the legislative committee that did this work, that uncovered his unsavory role was somehow in the wrong is ridiculous. Go to the Government Printing Office, take a look at the evidence. Everything we found is there. Read the transcripts, take a look at the emails and the text messages. Listen to the radio traffic. This was a horrendous event that we uncovered for the American public. And, you know, it's protected by the Constitution. Article 1, Section 6 says that the Congress speech or debate clause, Congress cannot be questioned in any other place for our legislative work. So this threat is an empty one and really pretty ridiculous if it is.

[Host]

An empty threat and he can't credibly threaten jail time. Right. For members of Congress for having done been part of this investigation. If that's something that he's going to threaten, but he's not going to be able to carry out, but he is going to be able to carry out his, the other side of this threat, which is to set free all the people who committed crimes and were convicted of crimes, even including violence on January 6th, what do you think the effect of that will be on the country? What does that do to us as a polity, as a democracy, as a country? What does that do to us?

[Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren]

Trump is not a believer in the rule of law. We know that from all of his activities. And that you would pardon people who committed this violence who were either Convicted or pled guilty of really violent acts really undercuts the rule of law. I mean, you know, clemency is for people who have earned it. People. You know, we see people who have mended their ways. Right now, we've got rioters in court saying that they don't care. You know, Trump is going to pardon them anyhow. It's a really very destructive suggestion that we would pardon these criminals and try and threaten people who aren't criminals. The January 6th committee members, Congresswoman Zolofgren.

[Host]

Of California, I appreciate your time tonight. I'm sort of. I'm implicitly sorry to ask you to come on, to respond to these things, but I want your voice to be out there as loud as anyone's in telling this story. Thank you for being here.

[Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren]

Well, it's important that the committee let him know we're not going to be intimidated.

[Host]

I hear you. The whole country hears you. Thank you, ma'am. Appreciate it. We'll be right back. Watch what they do, not what they say. Always. Watch what they do, not what they say. Always, always, always. All right, so it took forever. Took north of forever, but the Trump transition finally announced. They signed an agreement with the Justice Department that allows the f. FBI to start doing background checks for Trump's nominees, nominees for the Cabinet and other important jobs running the United States government. Initially, of course, the Trump team had indicated that they were going to try to skip the usual process to not have the FBI check anyone's background, not only for nominations, but specifically for security clearances. Eek. As the weeks ticked by, though, as the problematic nominations and surprise revelations about them piled up. But some Republican senators did start telling reporters that those traditional background checks seemed like a good thing to keep, that they were something that mattered to them. In that context, the Trump transition announced that they had changed their mind, that they had finally entered into a memorandum of understanding with the U.S. justice Department. The agreement, quote, allows. Allows the transition team to submit names for background checks and security clearances. It will, quote, ensure President Trump and his team are ready on day one to begin enacting the America first agenda. That was what the Trump transition put in writing. Right. And the indication there, like the vague implication is, oh, here come the background checks.

[Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren]

Right?

[Host]

That's what they said. But they left themselves a brainworm's worth of wiggle room in there, as the New York Times put it, Quote, the announcement did not say whether Trump would require his appointees to undergo the process or whether they were simply allowing the FBI to begin looking at those who were willing to submit to their scrutiny. Meanwhile, some cabinet nominees are reportedly opposed to submitting themselves to an FBI check until Trump gets rid of the current FBI leadership and puts his own in charge. An attorney for Pete Hegseth, who's Trump's choice for defense secretary, has now said that the would be defense secretary got his forms from the FBI on Wednesday. That implies that there will be a background check of him. We shall see. It is hard to tell much more than that about what is going on inside this process. We've asked Mr. Hegseth's attorney whether Hegseth volunteered for this FBI background check or whether the train required him to go through it. We've also asked whether the Trump transition is requiring background checks for everyone. We've asked them whether they will share the results of these background checks with all senators. If and when we hear back, we'll let you know. But in the meantime, and always watch what they do, not what they say. All right. Thanks for being with us tonight. Appreciate you being here, but that's going to do it for me.

[Advertiser]

For now, it's the holiday season and the perfect time to gift yourself with a new home for the new year. For a limited time, take advantage of incredible savings and incentives during Dr. Horton's it's yous Year Savings event going on now through December 22nd. Your perfect home for every holiday season is waiting for you. To find yours, visit any of our participating Dr. Horton communities or visit [e-mail] and discover the Dr. Horton difference. Dr. Horton, America's builder, an equal housing opportunity builder.