← The Rachel Maddow Show
The Rachel Maddow Show
'This is shameful': Trump sows animosity and mistrust abroad, degrading Americans in the process
00:43:19
Rufus Gifford, former U.S. ambassador to Denmark, talks with Rachel Maddow about the animosity and mistrust Donald Trump is sowing among even allied nations, and the shock of betrayal people around the world are feeling about Americans they'd previously held in high regard but who they do not see pushing back against Trump and standing up for long-term international friendships.
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- [00:01]
Lacey Mosley
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- [01:11]
Rachel Maddow
Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Wow. A lot happened today and even more has happened tonight. Every Friday it's like this. But here we go. Ready? Tonight, a federal judge in New York has just blocked Trump from shutting down the Voice of America and firing its staff. Trump tried to do this two weeks ago, but tonight a judge ordered Trump that he cannot, quote, terminate, reduce, enforce, place on leave or furlough the journalists and staff and engineers at Voice of America. The judge called what Trump is doing here, quote, a classic case of arbitrary and capricious decision making. Trump also tried to shut down another part of the U.S. agency for Global Media, Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty. Plaintiffs also sued to block Trump from shutting down those entities yesterday, after those plaintiffs had initial success in court. In their case, Trump actually reversed that decision and let Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty stay open and stay funded. Pushback works. We have been closely watching the case of the Tufts University Fulbright Scholar who was snatched off the street by masked officers. A bunch of things are happening in that case and we are going to have a full update on that for you in just a moment. But I can tell you right now that a judge overseeing that case has just ordered that Trump is not allowed to deport that young woman. The courts have blocked him from sending her out of the country again. We will have more on that to come. Plenty of new detail on that case to bring you tonight. In a separate case, yet another federal judge has just issued a restraining order that blocks Trump from sending people to random third countries that they're not from. Like for example, what he has done by sending hundreds of men who aren't from El Salvador to a prison in El Salvador. There is a separate court order that is blocking Trump from sending anybody else to that El Salvador prison the way that he did those several hundred men. It remains to be seen if the courts will also order Trump to return those men from El Salvador. But just in case Trump had designs on sending people to yet another random country to which the deportees had no connection, a federal judge tonight in Massachusetts has blocked him from doing that. Want more? There's more. Today also, a federal judge has blocked Trump from shutting down the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Trump had tried to fire most of the people who work there and then told the remaining people who were still there that they were not allowed to do any work. And then he shut down the physical headquarters of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. But now a federal judge has issued an injunction blocking Trump from doing any of that. She has, as of tonight, ordered Donald Trump to instruct, instruct the government to reinstate the employees of the CFPB and to preserve the agency's contracts and their data. CFPB employees, I should tell you, they have been showing up in person packing the court hearings every day this case has been in court. Well, now the judge says those CFPB employees are likely to win this case on the merits. And so as of now, they should consider themselves back on the job. But wait, there's more. On Trump's week one botched and incoherent order to cut off all federal spending, all federal grants. Now a federal appeals court has upheld the lower court rulings that shut him down on that. On Trump's ham handed White House proclamation that all so called probationary employees had to be fired from multiple agencies. That's the one they soon realized was so blatantly illegal, they tried to take it back and pretend that it had just been a suggestion all along. Well, now a federal appeals court has upheld yet another of the lower court rulings that shut Trump down on that one as well. Oh, do you want more? Do you want more? Because there's more. Just before we got on the air tonight, we got a late night ruling from yet another federal judge who has issued yet another ruling blocking Trump, this time on one of his authoritarian fantasy executive orders by which he targeted a major mainstream US Law firm. Trump started issuing these one by one executive orders going after law firms basically to try to scare the legal profession into not bringing cases against him in court, into. Into not representing people or entities who Trump is targeting. He's been trying to intimidate the legal profession and individual law firms one by one so that he can get his way without having court challenges to things that he does that are illegal. Two major US Law firms, I think, have effectively destroyed themselves, have destroyed their own reputations and made themselves, I think, basically indelibly infamous by going to Trump, going to the White House and begging Trump to not target them, promising to do tens of millions of free legal work for his chosen causes. The firm Skadden, Arps and Paul Weiss are the two firms that have chosen to do that, have chosen that attempt to get, to get out of Trump's, you know, appropriate. Right. I think Skadden, Arps and Paul Weiss have destroyed their reputations by doing that. I think probably they thereby have destroyed their own businesses by doing that. But that's what they chose to do. In contrast, you've got firms like Jenner and Block who went straight to court and said, actually, no, we're not going to beg, we're going to go fight this. And we're going to fight this like you can't believe, because you know what? We're good at fighting illegal stuff in court. Well, tonight, a judge has ruled in favor of Jenner and Block and blocked Trump's executive order against them. The judge in that case said Trump's attack on the firm violates the First, Fifth and Sixth Amendments of the U.S. constitution. I said there are two firms tonight that we are watching because they chose to fight, unlike Paul Weiss, unlike Scadden Arpst, Jenner and block, and WilmerHale chose to fight. Jenner and Block got that order tonight, blocking Trump's executive order. The second firm, Wilmerhale, the judge hearing their case tonight said in court that he wasn't going to rule from the bench, but he also said in open court that he was inclined to issue an order against Trump in their case as well. I will tell you, we had a reporter in the courtroom for that. Our reporter notes that the courtroom for this hearing this evening was packed with lawyers from Wilma or Hall, all there in person to stand behind their firm's decision to fight. And now it looks like they're going to win, too. Just moments ago, just before we got on the air, we got this written ruling from that judge. And just like with Jenner and Block in the Wilmer Hale case, the judge is also blocking Trump's executive action against the firm, in part. So both firms that fought against Trump's executive orders here, one tonight in court. You don't always win when you fight, but you always lose every time you don't. So happy Friday. Donald Trump is having a terrible day. Have you ever heard of Peebles, Ohio? It's P, E E B L E S. Peebles, Ohio. It's in Appalachia. It's a village. It's a town of about 1700 people. And in that little town of 1700 people in deep, deep red, Adams County, Ohio. Look at this. They're out protesting Trump on the street now. Their congressman is Republican David Taylor. You can see the sign there, Mia, Missing in action. Congressman David Taylor, your constituents would like a word with you in Fort Bend County, Texas. They've also got a Republican congressman there, Troy Nels. Troy Nels will also not meet with his constituents back home. So last night in Fort Bend County, Democrats Beta O'Rourke and Tim Walz held their held their own town hall in Troy Nels district in Texas. Something like 2,000 people showed up. You won't show up and meet with your constituents. Well, the Democrats will do it for you then. In Grand Rapids, Michigan, last night, Democratic Congresswoman Hillary Skolton had more than 1,000 people show up at her own town hall at a local high school. A day after announcing with glee that he is firing thousands of people from the Department of Health and Human Services. And as we are still getting in reports about kids turning up with liver damage in Texas because their parents have inadvertently poisoned them by following quack health advice from Trump's health secretary, Bobby Kennedy Jr. Kennedy today turned up in Martinsburg, West Virginia, for an event with that state's Republican governor. Even in Martinsburg, West Virginia, the locals were there to greet him. See the sign there with Governor Morrissey and rfk Measles and polio are here to stay. Hands off our democracy today at the Department of education in Washington, D.C. this was the scene as employees that Trump has fired from the Education Department were allowed to collect their things and leave. People turned out on the street outside the Education Department headquarters to thank them for their work, to cheer for them. Trump's efforts to shut down the Education Department and fire all its employees are being challenged in court. He has asserted that he is closing the Education Department. But you know what? The Department of Education was not created by Donald Trump. It was created by the United States Congress and is funded by Congress. And so it is Congress, not Donald Trump, that will have the last word on whether or not the Education Department is in fact shut down. But as he wages war against the Education Department in this country, people are turning out to support the people who work there. Trump's top campaign donor Elon Musk found himself in legal jeopardy today, or at least apparent legal jeopardy, when he tried to pull another one of his stunts in which he effectively sort of pays voters. The Wisconsin Attorney general immediately went to court and said, under Wisconsin state law, it does not matter if you are Donald Trump's top campaign donor, Elon Musk, it is still illegal to offer people money for voting. Elon Musk quickly deleted his tweet from earlier today, saying that he was going to come to Wisconsin with million dollar checks. He tried to recast the whole million dollar check scheme as something totally different than what he had initially announced ahead of Elon Musk's planned campaign trip to Wisconsin to try to boost the pro Trump judge. They're trying to get onto the state supreme there. This plane has meanwhile been flying all over the state. It's towing a banner that says go home, Elon. Vote Susan. Susan is Susan Crawford, the judge who is running against the Musk MAGA candidate in Wisconsin. That race is Tuesday, but early voting has already started in the Wisconsin State Supreme Court race. Donald Trump's continuing and now escalating tariff gambit sent inflation metrics up today. It also sent his gambit on inflation. Sorry. His gambit on tariffs also sent the markets off a cliff. The Dow dropped more than 700 points today. The S&P 500 dropped nearly 2%. The NASDAQ drop was closer to 3%. Well done on the whole tariffs thing. And of course, today was the day that Donald Trump sent his vice president cute coat to Greenland. Now, this was supposed to be initially a kind of extended soft power charm offensive visit by the Vice President's very charming wife, but that led to embarrassing headlines about American officials being unable to find a single Greenland resident who was willing to speak with her on her visit. No business agreed to host her on her visit. Even the dog sled race that she said she wanted to attend made clear that she had not been invited and they did not plan to host her at the event. Residents of Greenland are so disgusted by the Trump administration's insistence that the US Is somehow going to get their country, somehow going to take Greenland, that there were plans for protests of Usha Vance's visit from her landing at the airport, on the roads from the airport to the Capitol and along the capital's streets. And so they decided, hey, maybe let's not do that. In the end, instead, they decided to pair the visit way back, they decided to send her husband, the Vice president, with her. And they sent the Vances only, only to a US Air base that is literally a thousand miles from. From the Capitol, where the protests were expected, as the New York Times put it. They sent them to this air base, quote, where distance from any population center and high fences assured there would be no visible dissent. Greenland is part of Denmark. If Donald Trump and J.D. vance are going to take Greenland somehow, which they keep insisting the most obvious route to doing that would be a war with Denmark, I guess, which is part of NATO and is ostensibly our ally, both individually and as part of NATO, but to that point, our alliance with them. I want you to watch this. This is a man named Rufus Gifford. He was chief of protocol in the Biden administration. He was also America's ambassador to Denmark under President Obama. And I just want you to his reaction to what Trump and Vance are doing here with this stunt, with this. This threat which they are now escalating. Watch.
- [15:36]
Rufus Gifford
Hey, all. Okay, so to say I'm a bit worked up this morning is an understatement, and that's because of this. Yesterday, the vice President of the United States goes on Fox News and says that Denmark is not a very good ally. Now, I know that a lot of people would know how I feel about this, but I want to tell you why. And it is in part because, yes, I was the one for a number of years that would go to the prime minister or the foreign minister or the defense minister and ask on behalf of the United States government for them to send their young men and women to Iraq to fight isis, to help go remove chemical weapons from Syria, to go fight Ebola in Africa. I did it every time. And every single time, they said yes. And they said yes without hesitation. And in part because it was the United States of America, a great ally, asking them to do it. And for them to hear today that now the vice President of the United States is saying that they are not a good ally when they have lost more people per capita, young men and women in Afghanistan than any country other than the United States of America, it is just shameful. I have been to these funerals. I've heard stories of young men who've had their legs blown off by IEDs in Afghanistan, of young men who've had to go through numerous surgeries and now live in constant pain because of something that happened to them on the battlefield. For them and their families to now hear the vice President talk like this is just heartbreaking. And Honestly, Americans, we have to show outrage to our European partners. This is shameful, and this is a moral shortcoming. And honestly, look, we understand that the reason he's saying it is because they are not bowing, bending the knee to Trump's authoritarian, imperialistic takeover of Greenland. We get that. But at some point, this is about something so much bigger. This is about the men and women. I hope that J.D. vance could say this not just to the face of Maria Bartiromo, but go to Denmark and say that to the face of the parents of the young men and women who've lost their lives alongside US Troops. Say it to them, and then you will have just an ounce of courage, of courage. But until then, it is just shameful. And look, Americans, we need to show a little outrage here. Our partners and allies expect it from us, and they deserve better.
- [18:32]
Rachel Maddow
Joining us now is Rufus Gifford. He's America's former ambassador to Denmark. Ambassador Gifford, thank you so much for joining us. I hope you don't mind that we stole that from what you posted online. I thought a lot more people needed to see it.
- [18:46]
Rufus Gifford
Thank you, Rachel. It's important to hear, and very few people have had the perspective that I've had and have had the honor and privilege of serving the United States, of having been to Greenland for nine times, of understanding the political complexity of the Arctic and the relationship between Denmark and Greenland, and how important the United States is to the people both of Denmark and Greenland. So it is heartbreaking to me, and I so appreciate you inviting me on here today to talk a little bit about it.
- [19:18]
Rachel Maddow
Well, I feel like a lot of our discussion about this crazy scenario we find ourselves in has been about how Trump's fixation on Greenland, where did it come from? Where did he get this idea, how non viable this idea seems, how any potential path toward him getting what he wants seems like it would be impossible for him to get the catastrophic consequences of a potential war with Denmark with a NATO ally if that's what he felt like he needed to do. And that is indeed what he's threatened to get it. But I feel like what we haven't talked about is what these threats from him have already done to our alliances, to our standing in the world, and to what we are able to accomplish in the world as the United States of America. And I feel like you're really the first person who I've heard talk about that in really granular terms, in terms of what damage has already been done. Do you think that's sort of, that's the more appropriate ground for the national conversation we're having about this.
- [20:22]
Rufus Gifford
I so love this conversation because I think it's what matters, American diplomacy. The reason why American diplomacy has been so meaningful over the course of the last 80 years is because of the human relationships that we have built across. Across nations. The soft power that the United States has exhibited over the course of that time have just that we have built friendships and loyalty the likes of which we've never seen before on the world stage. And what breaks my heart in this, Rachel, is after that video that you posted, which I obviously somewhat spontaneously recorded after the Vance comments, here are the messages that I've received from Europeans and not just Danes, because the video did go viral. And the messages you receive back are so sad because these are countries that absolutely love the United States at our core. That because we had been there for them and they have been there for us. And now we're not just. This is the thing. We're not just losing the governments. And that's what I want Americans to know. We're not just losing the prime ministers or we're not just losing the defense ministers. There's lots of talk about that. The problem is we're losing the trust and respect of the people on the ground, the soldiers who sacrificed and sacrificed proudly alongside young American men and women fighting wars that we asked them to fight. And when they are disrespected, when their countries are disrespected, those real men and women, they feel disrespected personally as well. And that's been my experience over the course of the last two months. And I speak out, Rachel, because I think our European partners, as I said in the video, deserve better. But they also have to hear Americans speak out, meaning they have to hear Americans remind the world that we still respect their sacrifice and partnerships. And that's why I do it. And that's why I'm so grateful to be able to have this conversation, because it is so much more than just the granular actions which I think you led into this conversation so beautifully, because I agree with every word of it. But we don't talk enough about the human cost, which is happening day after day after day.
- [22:46]
Rachel Maddow
As an ambassador and in the kind of diplomatic roles that you've played, you've seen America try to persuade people to do things with us that they might not otherwise want to do. You've seen us try to dissuade countries from doing things that they did want to do, which we felt weren't in our interest. And you've seen all the different ways that America, you know, uses its power, all of its various forms of power to try to get what we want in the world. We are now, like just this week, facing a world in which Canada says that we are no longer a valued and trusted trading partner, in which Europe says not only are we no longer a partner in defense, but they so distrust us that they may want to divest themselves of US Weapons systems because they're not sure that they can safely count on even US Weapons. With the US Government that is so hostile to European interests, they may need to build up European defenses in a way that has never been contemplated since the end of World War II, specifically to treat America essentially as an adversary, not just as the absence of an ally. In a world where we stand alone or where we stand, I guess, with Russia and El Salvador, and that's the extent of our alliances in the world, what are the kinds of things that Americans have counted on us being able to do that we will no longer be able to do?
- [24:14]
Rufus Gifford
Gosh, you know the answer to that question. There are so many intangible parts of this, right? One of the things that I have learned over the course of my ambassadorship was just how many students studied in the United States. I think their parents are going to think twice about that right now. How many folks literally would travel to New, fly to New York in the summer and drive to Los Angeles and experience something more about the United States than I've ever even. Than I've even experienced. They loved us. They still had a great fondness for American leadership dating back to the Marshall Plan and World War II. They carry that with them. And to see it unravel just that, those cultural connections, those little things you mentioned, the economic piece, I actually do think it's important. We spent billions US Companies, billions and billions of dollars of defense contracts. I helped sell to Denmark, the F35 fighter jets. I can tell you the person who is the chief negotiator of that, one of the chief negotiators of that F35 contract is looking actively right now about getting out of that F35 contract simply because they are afraid that Donald Trump will hold those military resources hostage if he doesn't get what he wants. And again, that will harm everybody, that will harm an American taxpayer. But again, I believe that this, the fraying of the human relationship and human trust is something you just can't overstate right now. Now, it is a very, very important part of this. Americans just simply will be viewed with a degree of skepticism that we have not been viewed with in Europe for the last 80 years. And that's why, that's why we have to have this conversation. More Americans need to speak out with clarity and remind the rest of the world that there's still a heck of a lot of us that believe these values, these extraordinary values that have kept the world peaceful and prosperous for the last 80 years. A lot of us still hold them very, very close to our hearts. And I am certainly one of those.
- [26:27]
Rachel Maddow
Yeah, the American people haven't necessarily changed our minds here. It's just that our government is going through a revolution. Rufus Gifford, former AMBASSADOR to Denmark I really appreciate you making making time to be here tonight, sir. Thank you.
- [26:42]
Rufus Gifford
So grateful to you, Rachel. Thank you.
- [26:44]
Rachel Maddow
All right. More news ahead tonight. Stay with us. Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio.
- [26:52]
Rufus Gifford
Andy live and uncensored.
- [26:54]
Rachel Maddow
Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments.
- [26:59]
Scott Cummings
With that kind of drama that seems.
- [27:00]
Rufus Gifford
To follow me, you never know what's going to happen.
- [27:03]
Lacey Mosley
You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of AD, free music, sports, entertainment and more.
- [27:14]
Rachel Maddow
Subscribe now and get 3 months free.
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Lacey Mosley
Offer details apply.
- [27:22]
Rachel Maddow
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- [27:37]
Lacey Mosley
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- [28:11]
Rachel Maddow
Last night we showed you this spontaneous big protest that sprung up in Somerville, Massachusetts almost instantly. Like 2000 people gathered near Tufts University the same day that a Tufts student was snatched off the street by a half dozen federal agents who were covering their faces. They grabbed her and handcuffed her and stuffed her into an unmarked car. As of today, that spot on that Somerville street where she was grabbed by federal agents has become sort of a shrine to her and to what happened there. The tree there where they grabbed her is now adorned with flowers and ribbons. There's a sign on it that says ICE kidnapped our neighbor we now know that this young woman was moved to an immigration facility, a prison, effectively, in Louisiana, despite a judge's order that she was not to be removed from the state of Massachusetts without notifying the court. She's in Louisiana anyway. Today, a federal judge ordered that Trump is not allowed to deport this young woman. While the judge reviews her case and reviews her arrest, the judge ordering that she, quote, shall not be removed from the United States until further order of this court. We also got confirmation today that this student, her name is Ramesa Ozderk, she was never even notified that her visa had been revoked by the Trump administration. Boston Globe reports. Today, the Trump administration revoked the visa of a Tufts graduate student on March 21, but never notified her before masked Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents swarmed her on a Somerville sidewalk Tuesday and took her into custody. Just think about that for a second. Think about that. I mean, it's one thing for them to have revoked this woman's visa. I mean, it has its own First Amendment issues, right? Among other things, to put it mildly, the US Government is not supposed to be able to revoke someone's visa because they wrote an op ed the president disagrees with, or they went to a protest. That is one part of this fight. But it's one thing to revoke her visa. It is another thing to not tell her, you have done so. Right. Because then the first time she finds out that she no longer has a valid visa is when she is physically grabbed on the the street, thrown into a car, put on a plane, flown across the country, and stuffed into a prison. Right? I mean, if you notify somebody that you have revoked their visa, they then have the opportunity not only to potentially fight it, I guess, but they also have the opportunity to leave the country without being imprisoned. Right? But if you just take their visa away and never tell them the way they're doing this, somebody in her situation, the visa holder who's had her visa revoked, she has no way to avoid going to prison. There's nothing she can do to avoid being imprisoned. Why do it this way? This is all going to be litigated. Rameza Ostrich's legal team, I should tell you, now includes three lawyers from the ACLU who have joined her case. And, you know, it's worth noting that to the extent these immigration cases are getting into court, the Trump administration is losing, losing, losing, losing. Today in New Jersey, people gathered outside the courthouse in Newark in support of Mahmoud Khalil, another grad student the Trump administration is trying to deport after Snatching him from, I believe, student housing at Columbia. The courts have so far blocked Khalil's deportation. His lawyers are asking a federal judge in New Jersey to free him from the prison that he is sitting in in Louisiana. In Virginia today, a judge did order the release of a Venezuelan couple who were arrested by immigration authorities this month. They have legal authorization to live and work in the United States, but they were nevertheless arrested and have been put in prison by the Trump administration. The judge in Virginia today called their arrests, quote, baseless and unlawful. The couple had already been arrested once and ordered released by a judge. Then the Trump administration arrested them again. Both times, it was in front of the couple's young children. The court hearing today, the judge, quote, rebuked government officials for claiming in court that the couple posed a public threat. The judge ordered both of them released straight from the courthouse. The judge said to a Trump administration lawyer, quote, there is no reason why they are being held. If this was a criminal case, I would throw you out of my chambers. In a court filing in this case, an assistant director of an ICE field office in Washington described the woman in this couple as an affiliate of a gang and later described her as a senior member of a gang. The judge practically crumpled up that filing and threw it in the trash, saying, quote, this is a terrible, terrible affidavit. Described the claims in the affidavit as, quote, pure hearsay assumptions and, quote, putting words in people's mouths. And did I mention she told the Trump administration lawyer that she was inclined to throw him out of the place? Like I said, the Trump administration keeps losing on this stuff in court, including this ruling tonight, which says they cannot deport people to some third country where they're not a citizen without due process under law. Like, for example, the way they sent hundreds of men to prison in El Salvador without any notice, let alone a hearing. But as they keep losing all of these cases in court over and over and over again, and frankly, probably because they keep losing all of these cases in court, the Trump administration is trying to make it difficult, if not impossible, for lawyers to fight them in court, trying to make it impossible for lawyers to do their jobs, giving people access to the remedies afforded by the US Constitution in our judicial system. As Trump moves to try to intimidate and block the legal profession from doing its role to protect the Constitution and people who are in this country, it is very quickly sort of becoming do or die time for the US Legal profession in terms of standing up for itself and standing up to his intimidation. A mixed record thus far, but a very, very urgent calling for the legal profession right now. I've got more on that ahead. Stay with us.
- [34:40]
Rufus Gifford
Hey, this is Will Arnett, host of Smartless. Smartless is a podcast with myself and Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman, where each week one of us reveals a mystery guest to the other two. We dive deep with guests that you love like Bill Hader, Selena Gomez, Jennifer Aniston, David Beckham, Kristen Stewart, and tons more. So join us for a genuinely improvised and authentic conversation filled with laughter and newfound knowledge to feed the smartless mind. Listen to Smartless now on the SiriusXM app. Download it today.
- [35:17]
Rachel Maddow
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- [36:07]
Rachel Maddow
Scene in New York City earlier this week. Protestors with signs reading Paul Weiss, Cowards of the Year and Paul Weiss, Profiles in Cowardice. Paul Weiss, what will you tell your children? Paul Weiss is not a man. Paul Weiss is a law firm. And two weeks ago, after President Trump issued an executive order or terminating federal contracts with Paul Weiss and suspending security clearances for the firm's lawyers, Paul Weiss caved. The firm went to the White House and signed some sort of deal with Trump or made some sort of deal with Trump that includes them giving tens of millions of dollars in free legal work to causes that Trump supports. As I mentioned at the top of the show, Trump has been picking on law firms one by one, threatening them, trying to scare the legal profession into not challenging him in court and not representing he's targeting. And even as rich, highbrow firms like Paul Weiss and now Scadden Arps have gone to Trump and offered him tens of millions of dollars in free legal services for his chosen causes to try to save themselves while he attacks the legal profession and the independence of the judicial system. These two firms, I believe, ruining their reputations and likely ending their businesses in the process of doing this, turns out the rest of the legal profession is wiser. The rest of the legal profession is realizing it's time to fight. The first firm to fight back was Perkins Coie. Now today, two more, and at least thus far, they're winning. Today, Jenner and Block and Wilmer Hale both sued Trump after he signed executive orders that also targeted them. Tonight, in two separate courtrooms, two separate judges sided with the firms and blocked Trump's actions against them. Them, at least for now. I mean, what Trump is doing here is not just going after individual law firms like they were random businesses, right? He's attacking the whole legal profession. He's attacking the ability for any one of us, any entity, to have legal representation against the government. Without that legal representation, fearing retribution themselves, Trump is attacking the rule of law by attacking the machinery of the law. So much depends on how the lawyers at the center of this attack choose to respond. And experts who see this sort of autocratic breakthrough and the effort to try to change fundamentally the legal system in this way say that the timing on the fight back really matters. It's basically now or never. This is from Scott Cummings, who's a professor of legal ethics at UCLA Law School. He studied the decline of legal systems in autocracies. Professor Cummings says this quote, in the US the window for action is closing, and when it does, there will no longer be opportunities for meaningful action against the lawyers in charge of this radical democratic takedown. Once this happens, as it has in other autocracies, the bar will be captured by the regime and levers of influence will be eradicated. The clear lesson from these regimes is that a wait and see approach does not work and attempts at appeasement end up facilitating autocratic consolidation. Ultimately, democracies die when people lose hope that change is possible. We must not succumb to this pessimism. Joining us now is Scott Cummings, professor of legal ethics at UCLA's law school. Professor, it's a pleasure to have you with us tonight. Thanks for being here.
- [39:33]
Scott Cummings
Thanks for having me.
- [39:36]
Rachel Maddow
So you wrote this week that what Trump is doing is something that follows an autocratic legal playbook that's been used over and over again and in country after country around the world. Can you help us understand what that playbook entails and what are the steps?
- [39:54]
Scott Cummings
Sure. This idea about autocratic legal playbook says, basically, if you're a leader who wants to consolidate absolute power, the most effective way to do that is not through force, but through law, by exploiting, finding and exploiting legal loopholes. In the constitutional system and then using those loopholes to essentially knock down and demolish all of the independent democratic institutions that are designed to limit executive power. So the classic strategy is to capture the courts, knock out the independent arbiter of law that's supposed to keep the president within legal guardrails, to do things like capture the public bureaucracy, take over government legal offices that are designed to be independent from the president.
- [40:40]
Rachel Maddow
President.
- [40:40]
Scott Cummings
And to keep the president within constitutional guardrails. And now we're seeing the other big move that is under the autocratic legal playbook, which is to take down the legal profession altogether, right? To start at the top with these apex law firms and to disable them from representing individuals in court with interest against the government and thereby really destroy the adversary system, because the adversary system is premised on everyone being able to select their own lawyers and have their day in court.
- [41:13]
Rachel Maddow
In diagnosing what Trump is doing along those lines and recognizing the way that same playbook has been used in other countries and in other times, you essentially say that that diagnosis, our ability to see the way it has worked in other places, should help us in terms of coming up with a response or a defense to it. You say that American lawyers and law firms should learn the autocratic legal playbook in reverse, basically, to be able to anticipate it, to be able to proactively fight against it. In practical terms, what would that look like?
- [41:46]
Scott Cummings
Well, I think in practical terms, right now, they're way out ahead, right? I mean, they've. They've run far out ahead of the opposition. I think people are starting to catch up to the idea that this is actually systematic, it's coordinated, it's targeted, it did. It's well thought out. And we need to do the same to protect democracy and, and to prevent the playbook from being successful in this particular case. You know, I think that what learning the playbook in reverse looks like now is to really think ahead, right. To. To put yourself in the mindset of an authoritarian leader like Trump and to think ahead at what steps they want to take and where they want to go. And I think if you look at autocracies that have consolidated around the world, people talk a lot about Hungary because a lot of the Trump lawyer team has studied Hungary quite intensively. If you look at what happens in the future, Right. A few steps ahead in every single one of these countries, the important point to remember is that none of them do. Leaders do all the things that Trump is doing, take aim at all of these independent institutions, and then Just walk away and call a new election. They're doing this to stay in power permanently. And so in practical terms, what we need to be doing now is to think about what it would look like for Trump to try to stay in power permanently and to start to protect the democratic institutions that will prevent that from happening.
- [43:20]
Rachel Maddow
Scott Cummings, professor of legal ethics at the UCLA School of Law. That is a very sobering analysis and one that I 100% agree with, and I am glad that you have been able to articulate it in the way you have, sir. Thank you for being with us tonight.
- [43:34]
Scott Cummings
Thank you for having me.
- [43:36]
Rachel Maddow
All right, I'll be right back. His name is Trevor Milton, which sounds like a fake name, but it's his name, Trevor Milton. He posted the news himself on Twitter. Twitter. Trevor Milton had been convicted of lying to investors about his company's electric trucks, convicted of securities fraud and wire fraud. He had been preparing to serve four years in federal prison for that conviction. But now that had all changed. He posted this on Twitter last night, quote, today I was issued a full and unconditional pardon by ealdonaldtrump himself. He called me personally to tell me, and of course, it was true. Trevor Milton, convicted for falsely hyping his electric trucks, really did get a pardon yesterday from ealdonaldtrump, CNBC reported, quote, the White House confirmed the pardon, and today President Trump talked about it to reporters. He told them, quote, I think he was exonerated. And then they brought him into New York. He had a rough, rough road, and he was exonerated. It was a big celebration. At which point I come in with narrator voice. Trevor Milton was not exonerated. No. He was convicted of multiple felonies. Milton was convicted at trial in October 2022. And in fact, just this month, prosecutors recommended that Mr. Milton pay restitution of $680 million for securities and wire fraud, in addition to his prison sentence. But all of that is wiped away now. And, and, and why did this happen? Why this pardon? Well, Trump told reporters at the White House today, quote, they say the thing that he did wrong was he was one of the first people that supported a gentleman named Donald Trump for president. He supported Trump. He liked Trump. I didn't know him, but he liked him, which I think is Trump switching in, in and out of talking about himself in the third person. I didn't know him, but he liked him. He liked me. He means, I should tell you that Trevor Milton, at least according to his political donations, was not one of the first people to support a gentleman named Donald Trump for president. He only started donating money to Trump once he was very deeply in trouble. Quote Following Milton's 2023 sentencing, the former CEO made significant political donations to Trump and his allies. This included more than $900,000 to the Trump 40 in October 2024 and three quarters of a million dollars to RFK Jr. S political action committee the same year. Federal campaign finance records indicate that 2024 was the first year Mr. Milton ever made six figure political contributions. Also of note, as the AP reported, Trevor Milton was represented by two lawyers connected to Donald Trump. One attorney who was represented Trump's family business, the Trump Organization and his other lawyer is Pam Bondi's brother. Huh, I wonder how he got this pardon. I wonder who told Donald Trump that this was his first ever big supporter for president. I wonder who told Trump that this guy had been exonerated. It's weird how the pardon power works now. We'll be right back. We're having one of those old school Friday nights where news looks like it's going to keep breaking well into the evening.
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Rachel Maddow
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