Trump caves on tariffs: One economic indicator made even Trump realize he'd gone too far

Summary

Summary of "The Rachel Maddow Show" Episode: "Trump Caves on Tariffs: One Economic Indicator Made Even Trump Realize He'd Gone Too Far" Release Date: April 10, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Rachel Maddow Show, host Rachel Maddow delves deep into the latest developments surrounding former President Donald Trump's economic policies, particularly his tariff strategy. The show dissects the repercussions of these policies on the U.S. economy, the stock and bond markets, and the broader implications for governmental institutions like the IRS and Social Security. Additionally, Maddow highlights the rising public dissent manifesting in nationwide protests and scrutinizes the controversial actions taken by the Trump administration's Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE).

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Trump Caves on Tariffs

Maddow begins the show by analyzing the recent retreat by Donald Trump on his tariff policies. Initially confident in his strategy, Trump was compelled to reverse course due to alarming indicators from the bond markets.

• Republican Budget Setback: Republicans, who controlled the House at the time, anticipated passing their budget blueprint without issue. However, internal dissent led to the cancellation of the budget vote, indicating weakened confidence within the party.

• Quinnipiac Poll Insights: Maddow references a Quinnipiac University poll conducted during the weekend protests, which starkly mirrors the public sentiment observed during demonstrations. The poll revealed significant disapproval of Trump's handling of various aspects of his presidency:

  • Handling of his job as president: Disapproved by 12 points
  • Handling the federal workforce: Disapproved by 13 points
  • Handling foreign policy: Disapproved by 14 points
  • Handling the economy: Disapproved by 15 points
  • Handling trade: Disapproved by 16 points

  Especially notable was the perception of Trump's tariffs, where 72% of Americans believed his tariff policies would hurt the U.S. economy, compared to 22% who thought they would help (Poll results discussed at [12:30]).

• Impact on Financial Markets: Maddow highlights that under Trump's administration, the Dow Jones experienced nine of its ten worst single-day point drops, attributing much of this instability to Trump's economic decisions. She emphasizes that while stock market volatility under Trump was concerning, the more alarming development was the bond market's response.

  • Quote: “What happened today was not that the stock market tanked again. It was that the bond market started blowing up…” ([15:45])

• Bond Market Turmoil: Typically, in economic uncertainty, investors flock to U.S. Treasury bonds as a safe haven. However, Trump's actions resulted in the opposite—massive sell-offs in the bond market, signaling a loss of confidence in the U.S. government's economic policies.

  • Quote: “Unlike every other economic crisis in modern history, people in this economic crisis induced by Donald Trump… now people flee away from the US Government to find safety.” ([17:20])

• Reversal on Tariffs: Due to "deep concern, bordering on panic" from top economic officials regarding the bond markets, Trump reversed his stance on tariffs. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant and Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick jointly urged the president to pause tariff implementations.

  • Chris Hayes’ Analogy: "You set the house on fire, watched it burn and then lost your nerve and put it out. You now have a partially burned house." ([19:10])

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Administrative Failures and Policy Missteps

Following the discussion on tariffs, Maddow shifts focus to other critical areas where the Trump administration has faltered.

Funding Cuts to UN Food Programs

• Associated Press Report: The Trump administration inadvertently cut funding to several UN World Food Program emergency projects across 14 countries. State Department spokesperson Tammy Bruce acknowledged the error but failed to specify which countries were affected or how the mistake occurred.

  • Quote: “There were a few programs that were cut in other countries that were not meant to be cut.” ([21:00])

Social Security Administration Collapse

Maddow presents a series of alarming reports from major news outlets highlighting the deterioration of the Social Security system under Trump's policies:

• Challenges Faced:

  • Long wait times and website crashes

  • Staff cuts and rushed procedural changes

  • Increased anxiety among Social Security recipients

  • Washington Post Headline: “Social Security abandons DOGE-led phone service cuts amid chaos and backlash.” ([22:15])

• Policy Reversals and Continued Failures:

  • Initial attempts to eliminate phone services met with massive backlash, leading to reversals.

  • Despite reversing some cuts, the administration failed to restore full functionality, leaving the system in a "partially burned" state.

  • Quote: “Plans to force people awarded retirement, disability, and Medicare benefits to set up direct deposit payments online or in person have been canceled.” ([23:05])

• Impact on Beneficiaries: The compromised state of the Social Security Administration threatens millions of Americans who rely on these benefits for essential needs.

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Nationwide Protests and Public Pushback

The administration's policies have ignited widespread protests across the nation, reflecting a unified front of opposition from various sectors.

• Higher Education Fights Back:

  • University of Tennessee Rally: Students, faculty, and community members rallied against federal funding cuts affecting research and higher education.

    • Quote from Protester Leah Figar: “Researchers, educators, and students are calling on the federal government to kill the cuts.” ([20:38])

  • UCLA and UC Berkeley Demonstrations: Similar protests occurred at other major universities, emphasizing the detrimental impact of funding cuts on scientific research and educational initiatives.

    • Protester Quote: “I'm terrified that this country is just going to have a massive brain drain.” ([21:50])

• Governor Tim Walz’s Engagement:

  • In Lorain, Ohio, Governor Tim Walz addressed nearly 2,000 constituents, criticizing the administration's neglect in holding town halls and actively advocating for community engagement and accountability.

    • Quote: “If you do fight, you don't always win. But if you don't fight, you always lose.” ([22:30])

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IRS and Department of Justice Controversies

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the tumultuous state of the IRS under Trump's directives.

• Mass Resignations:

  • Multiple senior officials, including the acting head of the IRS, the chief financial officer, the chief of staff, the chief risk officer, and the chief privacy officer, resigned in quick succession.

• Policy Changes:

  • The Trump administration proposed sharing tax return information with Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), which directly contravenes the strict confidentiality laws governing taxpayer information.

    • Nina Olson's Statement: “Taxpayers file their returns with the expectation that the IRS is going to abide by the law which says tax return information is confidential unless Congress has carved out an exception.” ([32:05])

• Interview with Nina Olson:

  • Background: Nina Olson, Executive Director of the Center for Taxpayer Rights, provides expert insights into the gravity of the situation.

  • Key Points:

    • The proposed sharing of tax data with ICE violates Section 6103 of the Internal Revenue Code, which mandates the confidentiality of taxpayer information.

    • Resignations among IRS leadership signal a deep-rooted opposition to these unlawful directives.

    • Potential consequences include a significant decrease in tax compliance and revenue, exacerbating the nation's fiscal challenges.

    • Olson's Emphasis: “It's a criminal violation.” ([34:48])

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DOGE and Department of Labor Agreements

The episode also scrutinizes the Trump administration's association with Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE), highlighting potential misuse of funds and overstepped authority.

• Wired Magazine’s Investigation:

  • Unsigned Contract: DOGE entered into an unsigned agreement with the Department of Labor, allocating $1.3 million to four employees over 18 months—a figure that exceeds standard civil servant salaries by over $20,000 annually per employee.

    • Quote from Wired Reporter: “Paying the Doge kids for their acts of dismantling the US Labor Department.” ([43:21])

• Interview with Leah Figar:

  • Role: Leah Figar, Senior Politics Editor at Wired, discusses the implications of the DOGE contract.

  • Insights:

    • The lack of signatures on the contract raises questions about its legitimacy and implementation.

    • DOGE employees, including individuals with questionable backgrounds, have been given unprecedented access to sensitive government systems without proper vetting.

    • Figar's Observation: “DOGE has spent the last few months ripping through the government, gutting agencies and pushing out tens of thousands of federal workers.” ([44:10])

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Conclusion

Rachel Maddow wraps up the episode by underscoring the cascading effects of the Trump administration's policies on the U.S. economy and governmental integrity. The combined impact of reversed tariff policies, compromised financial institutions, weakened Social Security, and the disbandment of critical agencies like the IRS and DOGE paint a dire picture of the nation's current trajectory. Maddow emphasizes the growing public resistance and the importance of continued vigilance to safeguard America's foundational systems.

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Notable Quotes

• Rachel Maddow

  • “Unlike every other economic crisis in modern history, people in this economic crisis induced by Donald Trump… now people flee away from the US Government to find safety.” ([17:20])
  • “It's like a day that ends in Y for him. He's famous for doing it.” ([18:05])
  • “We’re wrecking the IRS. We’re doing something so controversial at IRS that it has caused the mass exodus…” ([30:00])
  • “Donald Trump is not going to be president forever. And the statute of limitations for most crimes is about five years.” ([36:04])

• Nina Olson

  • “Taxpayers file their returns with the expectation that the IRS is going to abide by the law which says tax return information is confidential unless Congress has carved out an exception.” ([32:05])

• Leah Figar

  • “Researchers, educators, and students are calling on the federal government to kill the cuts.” ([21:34])
  • “DOGE has spent the last few months ripping through the government, gutting agencies and pushing out tens of thousands of federal workers.” ([44:38])

• Chris Hayes

  • “You set the house on fire, watched it burn and then lost your nerve and put it out. You now have a partially burned house. Great job.” ([19:10])

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Implications and Future Outlook

The episode highlights a critical juncture for the United States, where economic policies and administrative actions could have long-lasting effects on both the domestic and global standing of the country. The concerted pushback from the public, professionals, and institutional leaders signals a potential turning point in countering policies deemed detrimental to the nation's welfare. Maddow calls for sustained public engagement and accountability to navigate and rectify the ongoing crises.

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Transcript

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[Host]

You know what tomorrow is. Tomorrow's Friday eve. Hang in there. But I'm happy to have you here tonight because tonight it is time for us all together to do some spelunking. That's right, it is time together to explore some caves following this weekend's big protests. More than 1400 protests in all 50 states, some of them in big cities like Chicago and New York and Washington, D.C. each of those topping 100,000 people at simultaneous protests. It was crazy after that big, big show of resistance to Donald Trump's presidency and what he's doing to the country Tonight. Interesting news out of Washington. Interesting news out of Congress tonight. Republicans in the House had expected to pass their budget blueprint for the whole government, for all the spending in the government. Republicans, of course, control the House. They only need a majority to pass it so they can pass it just on their own party's say so. But just within the last hour or so. They have had to pull that tonight because Republicans in the House apparently don't have support to get it done. So they have canceled their budget vote tonight, expecting that it would have failed had they put it up. And again, they can pass it only with their own members because they have a majority in the House. They've canceled that vote tonight. They may try again in the morning. We shall see. Meanwhile, in the wake of those demonstrations this weekend, we've also got some new polling in from Quinnipiac University, which essentially validates the criticism of Trump that we saw on display in such large numbers this weekend. The big protests this weekend were on Saturday. This latest Quinnipiac poll was in the field on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, actually Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. So it overlapped in time with These demonstrations. But this poll is a nationwide poll of how the American public is feeling about Trump and how he's doing as president. From the results of this poll, you'd almost think that they just polled the demonstrators. Because what people were saying in the streets and at state capitals and on the National Mall on Saturday is pretty much in keeping with what the public at large was telling pollsters who were in the field at the same time. Here's what I mean. Quote, do you approve or disapprove of the way Donald Trump is handling his job as president? Disapprove by a margin of 12 points. Do you approve or disapprove of the way Donald Trump is handling the federal workforce? Disapprove by a margin of 13 points. Do you approve or disapprove of the way Donald Trump is handling foreign policy? Disapprove by a margin of 14 points. Do you approve or disapprove of the way Donald Trump is handling the economy? Disapprove by a margin of 15 points. Do you approve or disapprove of the way Trump is handling trade? Disapprove by a margin of 16 points. All right, well, you know, how about this one? How about his, his signature issue, a thing that he actually did run on when he campaigned for president, a thing he really most wants to be associated with the policy that he most wants you to identify with him and his name. You think American public, do you think it is a good thing, his signature issue? Here's the way the question was phrased. Thinking about the short term, do you think President Trump's tariffs will help or hurt the US Economy? The proportion of Americans who say Trump's tariffs gonna help 22%. The proportion of Americans who say Trump's tariffs will hurt us is 72%. So by a 50 point margin, Americans believe that Donald Trump is deliberately hurting us with his big signature policy idea of these genius tariffs. By a 50 point margin, Americans say what he's doing is hurtful to us deliberately. Which brings us to what I mentioned at the top. Our spelunking expedition together this evening, our exploration of caves, the incident of Donald Trump caving today, that's getting the most attention, understandably, so is his panicked cave, his panicked u turn on tariffs. You know, for all his famed and supposed attention to the stock market, I gotta tell you, Donald Trump has been very happy to preside over huge off the cliff plunges in the stock market repeatedly, in fact, in history. If you look at the Dow Jones, if you look at the 10 largest single day point drops in the Dow in history. Of the 10 worst point drops ever on the Dow, Donald Trump was the president for nine of those 10 days. Some were in his first term, some were this past week with the tariffs debacle. Yeah, he was president for nine of the 10 worst one day point drops on the Dow. And you might say there's, you know, the takeaway message there is, wow, why would any Wall street person, any business person, anyone with a single share of stock, anyone with a retirement account, why would any of those folks ever support this particular person for president? Reasonable question. But the other takeaway here is about him and not just how good or not he is for stocks. The other takeaway here, I think it's fair to say, is that he doesn't much care about tanking the stock market all the time. It's like a day that ends in Y for him. He's famous for doing it. What happened today that was different? After all, his remaining tariff threats went into effect at midnight last night. What happened today was not that the stock market tanked. It did at the beginning of the day with the tariffs in place, but that's again, normal for a day with Donald Trump at the wheel. What was different today was not that the stock market tanked again. It was that the bond market tanked at the beginning of the day. And you don't have to know that much about the markets to know that when things go crazy economically, even sometimes when things just go crazy in other ways, people rush to put their money somewhere safe. And for decades, for the entire span of America's global economic dominance, the safe place that people have run to when stuff is crazy has been US Bonds, American treasury bonds. Because when the world is going nuts for whatever reason, you can at least count on the full faith and credit of the government of the United States of America, right? So usually bad economic times mean that people want to buy lots of T bills, lots of treasury bonds. That's the safe harbor. But we're in a new environment now because it turns out something different happens when the reason things are crazy is that the US Government itself is crazy. It's that the US President has grabbed the wheel and he doesn't drink. So we know he's not drunk, but boy, he sure is driving like he's drunk. I mean, when the problem is the actions of the US Government, instead of fleeing to the US Government for safety, now people flee away from the US Government to find safety. And so, unlike every other economic crisis in modern history, people in this economic crisis induced by Donald Trump. People today at the beginning of the day started selling their T bills, started selling their US Treasuries a lot. A lot, a lot. And that is not just an inversion of typical economic behavior. That indicates an inversion of America's role in the world as the dominant economy. Also, in practical terms, a sell off like that in the US Bond market, I mean, that portends a way bigger economic disaster for the United States than Trump tanking the stock market over the past week. The bond market falling apart is a much bigger deal than the stock market falling apart in terms of the fundamentals of who we are in the world and how our money and our economy works. Because the stability of the US Bond market is what we depend on essentially for the spine of our economy. Everything from mortgage rates in the housing market to the integrity of our multi trillion dollar national debt. So yes, the stock market stuff under Trump has been scary. But if the bond market blows up, say Goodbye to the U.S. economy. And today what happened is the bond market started blowing up when that happened at the opening of the bond markets today. That's apparently what turned things around. That's how we discovered this lovely cave that Donald Trump led us into today on his tariff policy. NBC News reports tonight that Trump cave. Trump reversed course on his tariff gambit today because of quote, deep concern, bordering on panic from his top economic officials regarding the bond markets. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant and Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick, not always allies in the various tariff debates at the White House, nevertheless presented a united front today to the president urging a pause on what he was doing on tariffs. A pause, quote, over concerns about the bond markets. My colleague Chris Hayes, I think nutted up what happened here very well today. He posted this on Blue sky, quote, you set the house on fire, watched it burn and then lost your nerve and put it out. You now have a partially burned house. Great job. Exactly. But don't lose sight of some of the other lovely caves on our spelunking tour today. For example, this one headline, Associated Press trump administration says it cut funding to some life saving UN Food programs by mistake, quote. The State Department says it has rolled back an undisclosed number of sweeping funding cuts to UN World Food Program emergency projects in 14 countries, saying it had terminated some of the contracts for life saving aid, quote, by mistake. State Department spokesperson Tammy Bruce told reporters, quote, there were a few programs that were cut in other countries that were not meant to be cut. Bruce said she had no immediate information on which countries had US Funding restored. She gave no explanation for how some contracts came to be canceled in error. Oops. Yeah, we have no idea. So I guess we'll put them back. We don't even know how we're making these mistakes. We don't. We know it's a mistake, but we don't even know what the mistake is. But rest assured, we know what we're doing. And if you criticize us, watch out. But, you know, just as, just as Chris noted, as he said, you know, even after panicking and putting out the house fire you started, you still have a partially burned house. There's still damage done. Even as they try to reverse all of these mistakes they're making, you still have a partially burned house. Just as Chris noted there. The New York Times is reporting tonight that even some of the critical programs that the Trump administration said they didn't mean to cut apparently are still cut. Quote, last week, some officials were given lists of contracts and awards that remained active. But by the weekend, many of those projects had been axed. Then on Tuesday, yesterday, some of the programs were restored with little explanation. But now still, the administration has, quote, slashed many of the programs it had pledged to preserve. They cannot explain what they're doing. They cannot defend what they're doing. They cannot commit to what they're doing. But they also can't even reverse what they're doing when they try to reverse it, because they are so incompetent, they can't even fail properly. They're like a baby just mashing down the buttons on a keyboard with no idea what the buttons do, except the keyboard isn't hooked up to like a, you know, I don't know, a word processor or video game. The keyboard is the controls to a life support machine that has a patient on it. What do these buttons do? Oops. Still, though, the caves keep on coming. Last night, we reported over a couple of different segments of the show on, on the, on the disturbing, seemingly calamitous collapse of Social Security. These have been just some of the headlines just in the past couple of days. Washington Post, long waits, website crashes. Social Security is breaking. The New York Times, quote, just a mess. Staff cuts, rushed changes and anxiety at Social Security. Quote, the system is groaning under the pressure. This was Business Insider yesterday afternoon. Quote, aarp, the American association of Retired Persons, sounds the alarm on Social Security's, quote, startling and sudden decline in customer service and warns of more to come. This was the LA Times today. Quote, it's a shambles. Doge cuts bring chaos and long waits at Social Security for seniors. The wrecking of Social Security Donald Trump's wrecking of Social Security Trump's wrecking of the Social Security system that tens of millions of Americans rely on many as their primary source of income when they don't have other options to supplement it with anything else. It is just a practical and moral catastrophe. It also ought to be a political catastrophe for those who have brought this on the American people. The failings at Social Security are now finally becoming the focus of press coverage. It has long been now, as long as people have been protesting what Trump has been doing. It has been a resounding, rallying cry for regular Americans protesting all across the country. People protesting in blue states and red states, in cities and in rural areas. Social Security is such a core, practical and moral concern for Americans, and they are gutting and destroying that agency. That said today, they caved on that, too. Headline Washington Post quote Social Security abandons DOGE led phone service cuts amid chaos and backlash the shift amounts to a wholesale retreat by Musk's team and the Social Security leadership in their bid to dramatically curtail telephone access to services. After the Trump administration announced last month that the Social Security administration would, quote, scrap many of its claims services over the phone, Social Security beneficiaries began lining up at field offices across the country, clutching driver's licenses and asking if they must prove who they were in person. Phone wait times ballooned and the agency's website started crashing almost daily under a crush of panicked callers and visitors. Besieged by angry constituents, lawmakers demanded that the administration end the chaos. Now. After nearly a month of chaos and backlash, the DOGE plans are dead. According to an internal memo obtained by the Post, plans to force people awarded retirement, disability and Medicare benefits to set up direct deposit payments online or in person have been canceled. Those applying for benefits can also continue the process by phone without the need to go online or visit an office in person. That's according to a Monday memo from the acting deputy commissioner of the agency to the acting commissioner starting Tuesday. Emails and training started to go out to field staffers informing them that they won't have to curtail phone service after all. Managers told other employees verbally in meetings that the proposed changes were dead. One Indiana field office employee said, quote, so back to where it always was. What a waste of our time. Quote the shift amounts to a wholesale retreat by Elon Musk's Doge team in their bid to dramatically curtail phone access to services. Their new system would have removed a phone option in place for years, which has come to be a mainstay for the 73 million Americans who rely on Social Security for retirement, survivor and disability benefits and Medicare claims. So caving, yes, they are caving on this, on this part of what they are doing to Social Security. Right. So we've, we've put out this house fire, but, you know, as before, we now live in a partially burned house because they're still messing everything up. They're just trying to make sure that we find out less about how badly they're messing it up because look at what else they're doing here. This is back to the Washington Post today. Quote. As beleaguered employees work to understand the latest announcement about changes, some employees were hit with an additional puzzling change as to how they do their jobs. A new rule preventing communications with Congress or advocates for the elderly and disabled. An email went out to Social Security technicians on Monday instructing them to cease all written responses to congressional inquiries and inquiries from advocates. A similar email went out to employees in other divisions affecting a wide range of staff members, including benefits authorizers, claims specialists and customer service representatives. The second email obtained by the Post read simply, quote, effective immediately, do not respond directly to any public or congressional inquiries. After a surge in questions, another employee sent a follow up email clarifying that staffers should continue to pick up the phone if Americans call for help. But definitely don't talk to anyone else about how we're destroying this agency and the kind of chaos that it is wreaking among Americans who have in many cases, no other options to pay for the basic necessities of life. Oh well, I guess we're going to fix this one part that people have really been squawking about. But definitely don't answer any questions from Congress. Definitely don't answer any questions from anybody trying to make the system work. Don't pick up the phone. You know, pushback works. Pushback is the only thing that works. It's not like they're going to do good stuff if we start ignoring them right. When left to their own devices, things get very, very bad very quickly. Pushback works. It's the only thing that does. But even when they cave in response to pushback, they still are messing up new stuff all the time. Luckily, I will say the appetite for pushing back against them in the country appears to be growing and not shrinking. I mentioned at the top of the show that the massive protests we saw this weekend, you might think that could have tired people out a little bit, might have exhausted the American people's appetite for getting out and standing up and protesting and pushing back against this administration, even just for this week. Many because there, maybe because there was those huge protests on Saturday. Maybe that would quiet everything down for the rest of this week. Quite the contrary, apparently.

[Nina Olson]

Cuts happening across the country are being felt here. At the University of Tennessee. This afternoon, a Higher Education Fights Back rally was held on Rocky Top students. As you see, their faculty, campus workers and community members came out to support the cause.

[Reporter]

Happening now. At ucla, a group of education, labor and health activists, including members of several local unions, are gathering for a march in rally. These are live images from Sky5. The group is protesting the Trump administration's federal cuts that affect research and higher education, as well as Trump's order to dismantle the Department of Education.

[Host]

Outside the UCSF Mission Bay campus in San Francisco on Tuesday, hundreds of medical professionals rallied, calling on the federal government to to kill the cuts.

[Claude]

You could hear the voices of hundreds of protesters echo through the UC San Diego campus Tuesday.

[Host]

On the steps of Todd Hall Tuesday afternoon. What do we want? A local union for academic student workers at Washington State University organized a demonstration in correlation to National Take Action Day to voice concerns over potential state and federal funding loss.

[Leah Figar]

And we will fight back. Researchers, educators and students calling on the federal government to kill the cuts.

[Tim Walz]

Kill the cuts.

[Leah Figar]

At UC Berkeley, roughly a thousand protesters showed up.

[Host]

Today is only the beginning of our movement.

[Leah Figar]

Students like Tanzol Choudhary are defending university research, noting that scientific breakthroughs happen on college campuses.

[Host]

And there are so many other examples. Antibiotics, insulin, invented in university labs.

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[Host]

Are, are cancer survivors who are doing work on immunotherapies.

[Leah Figar]

I'm terrified that this country is just going to have a massive brain drain. I want to be a researcher. I want to be a scientist in America. And I don't know if I'm competing to do that. I'm worried that science is going to disappear. It's going to go to other countries.

[Host]

The consequences of all of this will be catastrophic. More talented scientists will be driven out of research and more people will die from preventable deaths. Those protests at college campuses all over the country yesterday kill the cuts protests. This was Democratic Minnesota Governor Tim Walz last night. Not in Minnesota, but in Ohio. In Lorain, Ohio, in a congressional district that's held by a Republican congressman named Bob Lata. Bob Lata is not holding town halls in his Ohio district, so Democrats will do it for him. Democrats are meeting with his constituents instead. In this case, nearly 2,000 people came out in Lorain, Ohio last night. For a town hall with Democrat Tim Walls pushing back matters. I mean, if, if you, if you do fight, you don't always win. But if you don't fight, you always lose. The Trump administration is deep into its caving phase right now on matters high profile and low. They also appear to be getting a little desperate. Trump tonight issuing bizarre executive orders ordering the U.S. justice Department to launch investigations into individual people who he has decided are his enemies. Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor, who both served in the Trump administration in his first term. A president ordering the Justice Department to open individual investigations into people he deems his enemies is Banana Republic stuff. And I don't mean the clothing company. We are also seeing Trump and his administration taking some wild and hard to explain swings at the IRS of all places, with consequences that at this point seem very, very unclear. We're also seeing Doge try to grab a whole bunch of money for themselves to put in their own pockets. Get it while you still can. Maybe they're thinking it is a really wild day in the news today. We got a lot to get to tonight. Stay with us.

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[Tim Walz]

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[Claude]

Okay, let's talk about Claude. The if you know, you know AI assistant that's got everyone buzzing. Clawd is like having a super smart, emotionally intelligent buddy in your pocket that responds like a real person would. Claude can help with just about anything, whether you need advice, inspiration, or even someone to help craft that perfect text to your crush. Claude can switch from being your life coach to your personal stylist to your side hustle strategist, all in one conversation. Head to Claude.com, that's C-L-A-U-E.com and start chatting with Claude for free.

[Host]

Administration as chaotic as this one, it can sometimes be hard to tell on a day to day basis when things are going bad and just kind of a run of the mill way versus when things are going bad in a not at all run of the mill, maybe actually consider panicking kind of way. It's hard to tell sometimes on a day to day basis. But one of the good indicators that something really big is going wrong is when you get news that people who have really big jobs in one part of the government, they all leave, they all quit or are fired suddenly all of a sudden and without warning. And it's because they had been trying to stop something from happening. They weren't able to stop that thing from happening. And so now they have left the agency, they have left the government. That is a pretty reliable sign that something quite big and quite bad is happening. And you only see these things every so often, even an administration as disastrous as this one. For example, there were the senior prosecutors who resigned after the Justice Department ordered them to drop the corruption case against New York City's mayor. There was the longtime official who resigned from the Treasury Department after people working for the president's top campaign donor demanded access to the most sensitive payment systems in the whole U.S. government. There was the top official for vaccine safety in the whole US Government who said he would not give Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And his new team unrestricted, read write access to a very sensitive central vaccine database. And again, I'm no expert, but I feel like I can measure the size of the splash that's being made by this particular cannonball at the irs, by the news of who is leaving the agency all of a sudden and without warning because of something going wrong there. This news started to come in last night just as we were getting off the air when we got news that the acting head of the IRS was gone. She had resigned over a Trump administration plan for the IRS to give sensitive tax data to immigration authorities so the Trump administration can use it to target immigrants. This woman had been acting commissioner for less than six weeks. She had been appointed after Trump's previous acting head of the IRS also abruptly resigned in another controversy. That alone is a bad sign. But apparently she was not the only senior person at the IRS who left because of this standoff. The New York Times then reported that the IRS's chief financial officer, the IRS's chief of staff, the IRS's chief risk officer, all have also resigned in recent days. Same with the IRS's chief privacy officer. The top lawyer at the IRS was also reportedly demoted recently as this plan to use tax data to target immigrants was starting to come together. Now that's a lot of people to have to fire your way through. Right. Whatever the reason for all these high level resignations, whether it's to stop this plan for using tax data to go after immigrants, I don't know. I feel like I need to understand why that is so dangerous and why so many people, including people elevated during the Trump administration, might feel like that was the Hill they needed to die on, that was the reason they needed to leave the agency. So I have questions about that. The other thing going on, happy April, happy tax season, is that they appeared to just be also kind of wrecking the IRS wholesale in the same way they've been taking apart the Social Security Administration. And I understand the implications of that for Social Security. Right. It means disabled people and old people are not going to get the checks they need that pay their rent and pay for their food and pay for their medicine. And in some cases, that's the only income they have. That's why the dismantling and the wrecking of the Social Security Administration is such a five alarm moral fire for everybody. Five alarm. A five alarm moral fire for everybody in this country who has a drop of empathy or understanding as to our obligations as citizens. Citizens to people who have paid into Social Security and deserve those benefits and deserve not to be messed with. I get it. At the Social Security Administration, at the irs, we are seeing a similar kind of wrecking ball start to level that administration. I mean, the Trump administration is cutting a quarter of the people who work there. That has implications, among other things, in terms of how much tax revenue is expected to be brought in by the IRS. If tax revenue nationwide drops by 10% because of the way they are wrecking the IRS, what does that do to the country? This happens alongside the Justice Department. Talking about now about effectively closing the whole tax enforcement division at the Justice Department, which is the part of the Justice Department that prosecutes tax crimes. So we're wrecking the irs. We're doing something so controversial at IRS that it has caused the mass exodus of all of the top executives at the agency, including some of whom came on board or got their current jobs during Trump, and we're going to stop prosecuting tax crimes. I should mention tax day is less than a week away. Right. What happens to our country if the Trump administration breaks the irs? If we don't have an effective and functioning system for collecting taxes or just for enforcing the rules and tax laws, what happens to our country then? What's, what's the end game there? Why would you do this? Joining Us now is Nina Olson. She's executive director of the center for Taxpayer Rights. She previously served as the National Taxpayer Advocate of the United States, which is an independent organization within the IRS. Ms. Olson, thank you very much for being with us tonight. I really appreciate you taking the time.

[Nina Olson]

Thank you for having me.

[Host]

So I'm no expert in these matters. I am an interested observer watching these things. Just as a layperson reading the news and trying to understand it here, I have to ask if you feel like I'm focusing on the wrong things, if I'm being unduly alarmed by some of the things that I'm seeing in the news, that to a tax professional such as yourself, maybe should seem more benign.

[Nina Olson]

No, I think this is unprecedented. You know, first, the attack on tax return information, the confidentiality of it. If there's one thing that all IRS employees and executives know, it's to keep that information confidential. Taxpayers file their returns with the expectation that the IRS is going to abide by the law which says tax return information is confidential unless Congress has carved out an exception. And that's drilled into you from day one. So that's the first thing that we're talking fast and loose about, you know, sharing information with all sorts of agencies and creating some kind of big database in the sky that federal agencies can tap into that will lead to taxpayers not being willing to share, share as much information as they are now because they're afraid that it might get into other agencies and have down, you know, consequen. And then you see the reaction of the senior leadership of the irs. First the duly nominated and appointed commissioner steps down even though he had a five year term. And then you have the acting commissioner step down, and now you have a second acting commissioner step down because of the desire for the tax return information to be shared with ice, you know, Department of Homeland Security and ice. And it's not just the chief risk officer who stepped down down or the chief privacy officer, but the head lawyer in the IRS who is, who opines on and interprets the section of the Internal Revenue Code that deals with confidentiality. She has also stepped down. So the legal expert on this provision that is under attack has stepped down.

[Host]

On this point of, of confidentiality. And I mean, the seriousness with which this has been greeted by senior IRS personnel. I mean, when Nixon tried to weaponize the irs, the IRS commissioner at the time refused. Even Nixon didn't try to, you know, Saturday Night massacre the IRS and go through, go through person after person after person to get his way. Even he was rebuffed here with all of these people resigning with confidentiality concerns that you describe, I feel like, again, just as a layperson looking at this, the immediate next place I go here is to the law. Because as far as I know, the confidentiality of tax information isn't just a nice thing that we like because it encouraged people to pay their taxes, because they believe they can trust the government to keep all their data safe. I mean, violating the confidentiality of tax information is illegal, isn't it? It's criminal.

[Nina Olson]

It's a criminal violation. And, you know, you referenced, you know, Nixon. A lot of people focus on the enemies list. But the other thing that happened that led to the current statute was that the Agriculture department in the 70s asked for the tax returns of every single farmer in America. And that led two or three congressional hearings, a huge outcry like, why do you want this information? And that's what led to Congress enacting section 6103, clawing the, the ownership, if you will, the decision making about how to keep who gets tax return information. They put it squarely in Congress's hands and said it's confidential. Unless we pass an exception to this. Rather than the President being able to Decide up to 1976, the President got to decide.

[Host]

Nina Olson, executive director of the center for Taxpayer Rights, thank you for your time tonight. Thank you for your clear speaking on this. This is, I think, an intimidating topic for a lot of people because we all get intrinsically fearful when we start thinking about the irs. The destruction of it, though, the dismantling of it is a totally different matter. And you've really helped me understand it better. Thanks for being with us tonight.

[Nina Olson]

Thank you.

[Host]

I will also say that, you know, to the extent as Ms. Olson says, this is, this is a criminal matter to violate the confidentiality of tax information, of sensitive tax information. Anybody in the Trump administration, any Trump administration official who's considering sharing tax information in a way that violates the law that makes this a crime to do it. You should know that Donald Trump is not going to be president forever. And the statute of limitations for most crimes is in most cases about five years. So maybe you're counting on not getting prosecuted for doing this, for breaking these laws about the confidentiality of tax information, because you think Donald Trump's president. So who's going to prosecute you? Donald Trump won't always be president. And if the statute of limitations hasn't run, somebody else will. We have a lot more to come tonight. Stay with us.

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[Host]

So there's been no shortage of jaw dropping headlines in the last couple of months. But for sheer bang for your buck for the ultimate combination of oh, and that characterizes the current Trump administration, I think it's hard to top this story which you will remember about Elon Musk's Doge Kids from Wired magazine headline Doge Teen owns Tesla Sexy LLC and worked at startup that has hired convicted hackers. Quote A young technologist known online as Big Balls who works for Elon Musk's so called Department of Government Efficiency or DOGE, has access to sensitive US government government systems. Security experts tell Wired that the 19 year old's professional and online history call into question whether he would pass the background check typically required to obtain security clearances. Yeah, good times. Do you remember where you were when you learned that America's most sensitive government computer systems and databases were in the hands of big balls? Wired was also first to report that another young member of Mr. Musk's DOGE team had direct access to treasury systems that are responsible for nearly all payments made by the US Government? Wired reported that he had the ability not just to read the information in those systems, but to write and modify information inside those systems, which potentially gave him the power to modify and delete files to cut off payments at will. It was Wired that figured out that Trump administration officials appeared to be lying to Congress and possibly lying to the courts when they claimed that that Doge guy never had that kind of read write access to the systems. Wired was at the forefront of identifying the young engineers who Musk was bringing in to dismantle the government, and they have been at the forefront of reporting out exactly what those guys have been doing. Stories have proliferated about the chaos inside the Social Security Administration, for example, the increasing problems that Social Security recipients have been having accessing their benefits. Wired has reported exactly who from the Doge team is inside the Social Security building and how their plans for a rushed, ill planned rewrite of the entire Social Security system's computer code could crash the entire operation. The weird, chaotic, nihilistic, frightening confluence of politics and technology and tech bro oligarch culture in this administration means that Wired magazine has turned out to be really the perfect outlet to cover some of the scariest stuff in this moment. And now today they have something new. Headline US DOGE service agreement with Department of Labor shows $1.3 million fee fee and details its Mission. Quote, an unsigned agreement between the U.S. doge Service and the Department of Labor obtained by Wired calls for the Labor Department to reimburse Doge up to $1.3 million. The contract apparently specifies that that $1.3 million would be for the work of four Doge employees over an 18 month period. Wait, wait, we're paying the do the Wired calculates that, quote, paying Doge an estimated $1.3 million for the services of four employees over that time span would establish an implied annualized pay of about $217,000 a year, which is over $20,000 more than the maximum salary for any career civil servant. So under this contract being reported by Wired, the Labor Department, the U.S. department of labor would have the privilege of paying over a million dollars to the Doge kids. Paying the Doge kids for their acts of dismantling the US Labor Department. They're dismantling the US Labor Department and taking some of its budget to pay themselves more than other civil servants are allowed to get paid. One of the reporters who broke that story joins us next. Wired magazine's Leah Figar and Tim Marchman have this scoop today. Quote, doge has spent the last few months ripping through the government, gutting agencies and pushing out tens of thousands of federal workers in an effort, Elon Musk has said, to eliminate waste and fraud. As part of this Plan Musk has previously stated that Doge staffers would cost taxpayers nothing. But now Wired has discovered what appears to be like a bill for services ish, in which the U.S. labor Department is apparently expected to pay $1.3 million to DOGE employees for their work. As Ms. Feiger and Mr. Marchman report quote, this $1.3 million figure and previous Wired reporting about Doge salaries tells a different story. Joining us now is Leah Figar. She's senior politics editor at Wired. Ms. Figar, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate your time.

[Leah Figar]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Host]

So you obtained an unsigned contract under which the Labor Department is expected to pay Doge employees a lot of money for their work. Do you. What do you make of the fact that this is an unsigned contract? Do you know if this is something that has actually been agreed to?

[Leah Figar]

So until about two hours ago, the Department of Labor did not respond to our request for comment, which included questions about whether the agreement had actually been signed or enacted. Their email back to us this evening actually just asked for the unsigned agreement and implied it wasn't real. The document is absolutely real, and though it is unsigned, it exists and is certainly present within the Department of Labor's files. We refuse to share it, however, with the Department for source protection purposes. As Wired, we protect our sources. That's the most important thing to us.

[Host]

In terms of the implications of this reporting. As you note, Elon Musk has said, sort of pounding his chest, that all the work of DOGE employees would be free of charge to the American taxpayers. What is it in this document that Doge employees are expected to be paid for? And to be clear, it's to be paid to them as individual employees, not paid to Doge overall as an institution. Right.

[Leah Figar]

So it's not entirely clear exactly who gets paid and how they get paid. We do know the names of the people that we'll be getting that should theoretically be receiving money for their work at the Department of Labor, and that includes Aram Mogadasi, Miles Collins, and Marco Ellas. Though they're not named in this interagency document, they are named as being in the agency in notes from a confidential meeting that we also obtained that actually detail an audit that the Government Accountability Office is conducting of Doge's work at a number of federal agencies. And like you mentioned, this agreement provides significant insight into Doge's work with federal agencies. They have an entire Scope of Work section that details how DOGE will operate within labor, and it's probably the clearest look yet at how Doge's relationships with government agencies are actually structured.

[Host]

Leah Figar, senior politics editor at Wired and again, I know you guys have received a lot of kudos for your work thus far in these past few months, but let me just add to those congratulations. All of us in the news business have really been treading in your wake a little bit, especially when it comes to reporting on these guys at DOGE and what they've been up to and who they are. And we're really, really appreciative for the big assist to what we do and that you've explained to the country. So thank you. To you and all your colleagues at.

[Leah Figar]

Wired, thank you so much for having me.

[Host]

All right. We'll be right back. Stay with us. All right, that's going to do it for me for now. See you again tomorrow and every night this week at 9pm Eastern.

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[Host]

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