Nina Olson (20:22)

Cuts happening across the country are being felt here. At the University of Tennessee. This afternoon, a Higher Education Fights Back rally was held on Rocky Top students. As you see, their faculty, campus workers and community members came out to support the cause.

Reporter (20:38)

Happening now. At ucla, a group of education, labor and health activists, including members of several local unions, are gathering for a march in rally. These are live images from Sky5. The group is protesting the Trump administration's federal cuts that affect research and higher education, as well as Trump's order to dismantle the Department of Education.

Host (21:04)

Outside the UCSF Mission Bay campus in San Francisco on Tuesday, hundreds of medical professionals rallied, calling on the federal government to to kill the cuts.

Claude (21:13)

You could hear the voices of hundreds of protesters echo through the UC San Diego campus Tuesday.

Host (21:20)

On the steps of Todd Hall Tuesday afternoon. What do we want? A local union for academic student workers at Washington State University organized a demonstration in correlation to National Take Action Day to voice concerns over potential state and federal funding loss.

Leah Figar (21:34)

And we will fight back. Researchers, educators and students calling on the federal government to kill the cuts.

Tim Walz (21:41)

Kill the cuts.

Leah Figar (21:43)

At UC Berkeley, roughly a thousand protesters showed up.

Host (21:46)

Today is only the beginning of our movement.

Leah Figar (21:49)

Students like Tanzol Choudhary are defending university research, noting that scientific breakthroughs happen on college campuses.

Host (21:56)

And there are so many other examples. Antibiotics, insulin, invented in university labs.

Advertiser (22:02)

I have colleagues who, you know themselves.

Host (22:03)

Are, are cancer survivors who are doing work on immunotherapies.

Leah Figar (22:08)

I'm terrified that this country is just going to have a massive brain drain. I want to be a researcher. I want to be a scientist in America. And I don't know if I'm competing to do that. I'm worried that science is going to disappear. It's going to go to other countries.

Host (22:20)

The consequences of all of this will be catastrophic. More talented scientists will be driven out of research and more people will die from preventable deaths. Those protests at college campuses all over the country yesterday kill the cuts protests. This was Democratic Minnesota Governor Tim Walz last night. Not in Minnesota, but in Ohio. In Lorain, Ohio, in a congressional district that's held by a Republican congressman named Bob Lata. Bob Lata is not holding town halls in his Ohio district, so Democrats will do it for him. Democrats are meeting with his constituents instead. In this case, nearly 2,000 people came out in Lorain, Ohio last night. For a town hall with Democrat Tim Walls pushing back matters. I mean, if, if you, if you do fight, you don't always win. But if you don't fight, you always lose. The Trump administration is deep into its caving phase right now on matters high profile and low. They also appear to be getting a little desperate. Trump tonight issuing bizarre executive orders ordering the U.S. justice Department to launch investigations into individual people who he has decided are his enemies. Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor, who both served in the Trump administration in his first term. A president ordering the Justice Department to open individual investigations into people he deems his enemies is Banana Republic stuff. And I don't mean the clothing company. We are also seeing Trump and his administration taking some wild and hard to explain swings at the IRS of all places, with consequences that at this point seem very, very unclear. We're also seeing Doge try to grab a whole bunch of money for themselves to put in their own pockets. Get it while you still can. Maybe they're thinking it is a really wild day in the news today. We got a lot to get to tonight. Stay with us.

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Tim Walz (24:41)

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Claude (25:12)

Okay, let's talk about Claude. The if you know, you know AI assistant that's got everyone buzzing. Clawd is like having a super smart, emotionally intelligent buddy in your pocket that responds like a real person would. Claude can help with just about anything, whether you need advice, inspiration, or even someone to help craft that perfect text to your crush. Claude can switch from being your life coach to your personal stylist to your side hustle strategist, all in one conversation. Head to Claude.com, that's C-L-A-U-E.com and start chatting with Claude for free.

Host (25:45)

Administration as chaotic as this one, it can sometimes be hard to tell on a day to day basis when things are going bad and just kind of a run of the mill way versus when things are going bad in a not at all run of the mill, maybe actually consider panicking kind of way. It's hard to tell sometimes on a day to day basis. But one of the good indicators that something really big is going wrong is when you get news that people who have really big jobs in one part of the government, they all leave, they all quit or are fired suddenly all of a sudden and without warning. And it's because they had been trying to stop something from happening. They weren't able to stop that thing from happening. And so now they have left the agency, they have left the government. That is a pretty reliable sign that something quite big and quite bad is happening. And you only see these things every so often, even an administration as disastrous as this one. For example, there were the senior prosecutors who resigned after the Justice Department ordered them to drop the corruption case against New York City's mayor. There was the longtime official who resigned from the Treasury Department after people working for the president's top campaign donor demanded access to the most sensitive payment systems in the whole U.S. government. There was the top official for vaccine safety in the whole US Government who said he would not give Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And his new team unrestricted, read write access to a very sensitive central vaccine database. And again, I'm no expert, but I feel like I can measure the size of the splash that's being made by this particular cannonball at the irs, by the news of who is leaving the agency all of a sudden and without warning because of something going wrong there. This news started to come in last night just as we were getting off the air when we got news that the acting head of the IRS was gone. She had resigned over a Trump administration plan for the IRS to give sensitive tax data to immigration authorities so the Trump administration can use it to target immigrants. This woman had been acting commissioner for less than six weeks. She had been appointed after Trump's previous acting head of the IRS also abruptly resigned in another controversy. That alone is a bad sign. But apparently she was not the only senior person at the IRS who left because of this standoff. The New York Times then reported that the IRS's chief financial officer, the IRS's chief of staff, the IRS's chief risk officer, all have also resigned in recent days. Same with the IRS's chief privacy officer. The top lawyer at the IRS was also reportedly demoted recently as this plan to use tax data to target immigrants was starting to come together. Now that's a lot of people to have to fire your way through. Right. Whatever the reason for all these high level resignations, whether it's to stop this plan for using tax data to go after immigrants, I don't know. I feel like I need to understand why that is so dangerous and why so many people, including people elevated during the Trump administration, might feel like that was the Hill they needed to die on, that was the reason they needed to leave the agency. So I have questions about that. The other thing going on, happy April, happy tax season, is that they appeared to just be also kind of wrecking the IRS wholesale in the same way they've been taking apart the Social Security Administration. And I understand the implications of that for Social Security. Right. It means disabled people and old people are not going to get the checks they need that pay their rent and pay for their food and pay for their medicine. And in some cases, that's the only income they have. That's why the dismantling and the wrecking of the Social Security Administration is such a five alarm moral fire for everybody. Five alarm. A five alarm moral fire for everybody in this country who has a drop of empathy or understanding as to our obligations as citizens. Citizens to people who have paid into Social Security and deserve those benefits and deserve not to be messed with. I get it. At the Social Security Administration, at the irs, we are seeing a similar kind of wrecking ball start to level that administration. I mean, the Trump administration is cutting a quarter of the people who work there. That has implications, among other things, in terms of how much tax revenue is expected to be brought in by the IRS. If tax revenue nationwide drops by 10% because of the way they are wrecking the IRS, what does that do to the country? This happens alongside the Justice Department. Talking about now about effectively closing the whole tax enforcement division at the Justice Department, which is the part of the Justice Department that prosecutes tax crimes. So we're wrecking the irs. We're doing something so controversial at IRS that it has caused the mass exodus of all of the top executives at the agency, including some of whom came on board or got their current jobs during Trump, and we're going to stop prosecuting tax crimes. I should mention tax day is less than a week away. Right. What happens to our country if the Trump administration breaks the irs? If we don't have an effective and functioning system for collecting taxes or just for enforcing the rules and tax laws, what happens to our country then? What's, what's the end game there? Why would you do this? Joining Us now is Nina Olson. She's executive director of the center for Taxpayer Rights. She previously served as the National Taxpayer Advocate of the United States, which is an independent organization within the IRS. Ms. Olson, thank you very much for being with us tonight. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Nina Olson (31:41)

Thank you for having me.

Host (31:43)

So I'm no expert in these matters. I am an interested observer watching these things. Just as a layperson reading the news and trying to understand it here, I have to ask if you feel like I'm focusing on the wrong things, if I'm being unduly alarmed by some of the things that I'm seeing in the news, that to a tax professional such as yourself, maybe should seem more benign.

Nina Olson (32:05)

No, I think this is unprecedented. You know, first, the attack on tax return information, the confidentiality of it. If there's one thing that all IRS employees and executives know, it's to keep that information confidential. Taxpayers file their returns with the expectation that the IRS is going to abide by the law which says tax return information is confidential unless Congress has carved out an exception. And that's drilled into you from day one. So that's the first thing that we're talking fast and loose about, you know, sharing information with all sorts of agencies and creating some kind of big database in the sky that federal agencies can tap into that will lead to taxpayers not being willing to share, share as much information as they are now because they're afraid that it might get into other agencies and have down, you know, consequen. And then you see the reaction of the senior leadership of the irs. First the duly nominated and appointed commissioner steps down even though he had a five year term. And then you have the acting commissioner step down, and now you have a second acting commissioner step down because of the desire for the tax return information to be shared with ice, you know, Department of Homeland Security and ice. And it's not just the chief risk officer who stepped down down or the chief privacy officer, but the head lawyer in the IRS who is, who opines on and interprets the section of the Internal Revenue Code that deals with confidentiality. She has also stepped down. So the legal expert on this provision that is under attack has stepped down.

Host (33:55)

On this point of, of confidentiality. And I mean, the seriousness with which this has been greeted by senior IRS personnel. I mean, when Nixon tried to weaponize the irs, the IRS commissioner at the time refused. Even Nixon didn't try to, you know, Saturday Night massacre the IRS and go through, go through person after person after person to get his way. Even he was rebuffed here with all of these people resigning with confidentiality concerns that you describe, I feel like, again, just as a layperson looking at this, the immediate next place I go here is to the law. Because as far as I know, the confidentiality of tax information isn't just a nice thing that we like because it encouraged people to pay their taxes, because they believe they can trust the government to keep all their data safe. I mean, violating the confidentiality of tax information is illegal, isn't it? It's criminal.

Nina Olson (34:48)

It's a criminal violation. And, you know, you referenced, you know, Nixon. A lot of people focus on the enemies list. But the other thing that happened that led to the current statute was that the Agriculture department in the 70s asked for the tax returns of every single farmer in America. And that led two or three congressional hearings, a huge outcry like, why do you want this information? And that's what led to Congress enacting section 6103, clawing the, the ownership, if you will, the decision making about how to keep who gets tax return information. They put it squarely in Congress's hands and said it's confidential. Unless we pass an exception to this. Rather than the President being able to Decide up to 1976, the President got to decide.

Host (35:42)

Nina Olson, executive director of the center for Taxpayer Rights, thank you for your time tonight. Thank you for your clear speaking on this. This is, I think, an intimidating topic for a lot of people because we all get intrinsically fearful when we start thinking about the irs. The destruction of it, though, the dismantling of it is a totally different matter. And you've really helped me understand it better. Thanks for being with us tonight.

Nina Olson (36:02)

Thank you.

Host (36:04)

I will also say that, you know, to the extent as Ms. Olson says, this is, this is a criminal matter to violate the confidentiality of tax information, of sensitive tax information. Anybody in the Trump administration, any Trump administration official who's considering sharing tax information in a way that violates the law that makes this a crime to do it. You should know that Donald Trump is not going to be president forever. And the statute of limitations for most crimes is in most cases about five years. So maybe you're counting on not getting prosecuted for doing this, for breaking these laws about the confidentiality of tax information, because you think Donald Trump's president. So who's going to prosecute you? Donald Trump won't always be president. And if the statute of limitations hasn't run, somebody else will. We have a lot more to come tonight. Stay with us.

Tim Walz (36:51)

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Host (37:38)

Okay.

Claude (37:38)

Let'S talk about Clawd, the if you know, you know AI assistant that's got everyone buzzing. Claude is like having a super smart, emotionally intelligent buddy in your pocket that responds like a real person would. Claude can help with just about anything. Whether you need advice, inspiration, or even someone to help craft that perfect text to your crush, Claude can switch from being your life coach to your personal stylist to your side hustle strategist all in one conversation. Head to clawd.com that's C L A U D E.com and start chatting with Claude for free.

Host (38:11)

So there's been no shortage of jaw dropping headlines in the last couple of months. But for sheer bang for your buck for the ultimate combination of oh, and that characterizes the current Trump administration, I think it's hard to top this story which you will remember about Elon Musk's Doge Kids from Wired magazine headline Doge Teen owns Tesla Sexy LLC and worked at startup that has hired convicted hackers. Quote A young technologist known online as Big Balls who works for Elon Musk's so called Department of Government Efficiency or DOGE, has access to sensitive US government government systems. Security experts tell Wired that the 19 year old's professional and online history call into question whether he would pass the background check typically required to obtain security clearances. Yeah, good times. Do you remember where you were when you learned that America's most sensitive government computer systems and databases were in the hands of big balls? Wired was also first to report that another young member of Mr. Musk's DOGE team had direct access to treasury systems that are responsible for nearly all payments made by the US Government? Wired reported that he had the ability not just to read the information in those systems, but to write and modify information inside those systems, which potentially gave him the power to modify and delete files to cut off payments at will. It was Wired that figured out that Trump administration officials appeared to be lying to Congress and possibly lying to the courts when they claimed that that Doge guy never had that kind of read write access to the systems. Wired was at the forefront of identifying the young engineers who Musk was bringing in to dismantle the government, and they have been at the forefront of reporting out exactly what those guys have been doing. Stories have proliferated about the chaos inside the Social Security Administration, for example, the increasing problems that Social Security recipients have been having accessing their benefits. Wired has reported exactly who from the Doge team is inside the Social Security building and how their plans for a rushed, ill planned rewrite of the entire Social Security system's computer code could crash the entire operation. The weird, chaotic, nihilistic, frightening confluence of politics and technology and tech bro oligarch culture in this administration means that Wired magazine has turned out to be really the perfect outlet to cover some of the scariest stuff in this moment. And now today they have something new. Headline US DOGE service agreement with Department of Labor shows $1.3 million fee fee and details its Mission. Quote, an unsigned agreement between the U.S. doge Service and the Department of Labor obtained by Wired calls for the Labor Department to reimburse Doge up to $1.3 million. The contract apparently specifies that that $1.3 million would be for the work of four Doge employees over an 18 month period. Wait, wait, we're paying the do the Wired calculates that, quote, paying Doge an estimated $1.3 million for the services of four employees over that time span would establish an implied annualized pay of about $217,000 a year, which is over $20,000 more than the maximum salary for any career civil servant. So under this contract being reported by Wired, the Labor Department, the U.S. department of labor would have the privilege of paying over a million dollars to the Doge kids. Paying the Doge kids for their acts of dismantling the US Labor Department. They're dismantling the US Labor Department and taking some of its budget to pay themselves more than other civil servants are allowed to get paid. One of the reporters who broke that story joins us next. Wired magazine's Leah Figar and Tim Marchman have this scoop today. Quote, doge has spent the last few months ripping through the government, gutting agencies and pushing out tens of thousands of federal workers in an effort, Elon Musk has said, to eliminate waste and fraud. As part of this Plan Musk has previously stated that Doge staffers would cost taxpayers nothing. But now Wired has discovered what appears to be like a bill for services ish, in which the U.S. labor Department is apparently expected to pay $1.3 million to DOGE employees for their work. As Ms. Feiger and Mr. Marchman report quote, this $1.3 million figure and previous Wired reporting about Doge salaries tells a different story. Joining us now is Leah Figar. She's senior politics editor at Wired. Ms. Figar, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate your time.

Leah Figar (43:18)

Thank you so much for having me.

Host (43:21)

So you obtained an unsigned contract under which the Labor Department is expected to pay Doge employees a lot of money for their work. Do you. What do you make of the fact that this is an unsigned contract? Do you know if this is something that has actually been agreed to?

Leah Figar (43:38)

So until about two hours ago, the Department of Labor did not respond to our request for comment, which included questions about whether the agreement had actually been signed or enacted. Their email back to us this evening actually just asked for the unsigned agreement and implied it wasn't real. The document is absolutely real, and though it is unsigned, it exists and is certainly present within the Department of Labor's files. We refuse to share it, however, with the Department for source protection purposes. As Wired, we protect our sources. That's the most important thing to us.

Host (44:10)

In terms of the implications of this reporting. As you note, Elon Musk has said, sort of pounding his chest, that all the work of DOGE employees would be free of charge to the American taxpayers. What is it in this document that Doge employees are expected to be paid for? And to be clear, it's to be paid to them as individual employees, not paid to Doge overall as an institution. Right.

Leah Figar (44:38)

So it's not entirely clear exactly who gets paid and how they get paid. We do know the names of the people that we'll be getting that should theoretically be receiving money for their work at the Department of Labor, and that includes Aram Mogadasi, Miles Collins, and Marco Ellas. Though they're not named in this interagency document, they are named as being in the agency in notes from a confidential meeting that we also obtained that actually detail an audit that the Government Accountability Office is conducting of Doge's work at a number of federal agencies. And like you mentioned, this agreement provides significant insight into Doge's work with federal agencies. They have an entire Scope of Work section that details how DOGE will operate within labor, and it's probably the clearest look yet at how Doge's relationships with government agencies are actually structured.

Host (45:32)

Leah Figar, senior politics editor at Wired and again, I know you guys have received a lot of kudos for your work thus far in these past few months, but let me just add to those congratulations. All of us in the news business have really been treading in your wake a little bit, especially when it comes to reporting on these guys at DOGE and what they've been up to and who they are. And we're really, really appreciative for the big assist to what we do and that you've explained to the country. So thank you. To you and all your colleagues at.

Leah Figar (45:57)

Wired, thank you so much for having me.

Host (46:00)

All right. We'll be right back. Stay with us. All right, that's going to do it for me for now. See you again tomorrow and every night this week at 9pm Eastern.

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