Trump gravely miscalculates how much Americans care about USAID as backlash strengthens

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Rachel Maddow Show Episode: Trump gravely miscalculates how much Americans care about USAID as backlash strengthens
Release Date: February 6, 2025
Host: Rachel Maddow, MSNBC

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1. Nationwide Protests Against Trump’s Policies

Timestamp: 01:02

Rachel Maddow opens the episode by highlighting the unprecedented wave of protests sweeping across the United States in response to President Donald Trump’s first two and a half weeks in office. These demonstrations are a direct backlash against Trump’s aggressive moves to dismantle federal agencies, particularly the United States Agency for International Development (USAID). Maddow details how protests erupted simultaneously in various state capitals and major cities, reflecting widespread anger over actions perceived as unconstitutional and harmful to American interests.

Notable Points:

• Protests occurred in diverse locations, including Austin, Texas; Olympia, Washington; Richmond, Virginia; Sacramento, California; Phoenix, Arizona; and New York City, among others.
• Demonstrators expressed outrage over Trump’s policies targeting immigrants, the transgender community, and the cessation of foreign aid.
• The loudness of the protests was so intense that it could be heard inside state capitol buildings.

Key Quote:

“There were protests absolutely all over the country today two and a half weeks into this new administration.”
— Rachel Maddow [01:02]

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2. Trump’s Miscalculations and Legal Overstepping

Timestamp: 05:30

Maddow criticizes Trump for underestimating the American public’s concern over the misuse of government resources. She emphasizes the president’s apparent disregard for legal boundaries, particularly in handing over sensitive personal, financial, and health-related information of American citizens to his top campaign donor, Elon Musk.

Notable Points:

• Allegations that Trump is allowing illegal access to government data.
• Reference to media outlets like The New York Times and The Washington Post highlighting the illegality of Trump’s actions.
• Discussion on the potential consequences of these actions undermining democratic institutions.

Key Quote:

“Everything they're doing is illegal.”
— Rachel Maddow [15:45]

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3. Senate Democrats’ Filibuster Strategy

Timestamp: 23:17

Senator Brian Schatz of Hawaii leads a prolonged filibuster in the Senate to block the confirmation of Trump’s nominee, Russell Vogt, who is associated with the controversial Project 2025. This tactic aims to delay and complicate the confirmation process, signaling strong opposition within the Democratic caucus.

Notable Points:

• Senator Schatz announces his intention to hold the Senate floor all night to protest Vogt’s nomination.
• The strategy includes leveraging Senate rules to maximize delay and draw public attention to the nominee’s extreme positions.
• Other Senators, including Chuck Schumer and Chris Murphy, echo the call for blocking Trump’s nominees.

Key Quote:

“We're running on a red alarm screaming in the night.”
— Rachel Maddow [23:45]

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4. Samantha Power on USAID’s Importance and Attack

Timestamp: 28:41

Samantha Power, former administrator of USAID, joins the show to discuss the severe impact of Trump’s administration on the agency. Power elucidates the multifaceted role USAID plays in global health, economic stability, and democracy promotion, underscoring the administration’s blatant disregard for legal protocols.

Notable Points:

• USAID’s shutdown includes critical programs like HIV/AIDS prevention and Ebola response in Uganda.
• The economic repercussions include the loss of 52,000 private sector jobs tied to USAID contracts.
• Authoritarian regimes view the dismantling of USAID as a strategic advantage, weakening U.S. influence globally.

Key Quote:

“These investments come from the people and they make that difference. And that’s hearts and minds.”
— Samantha Power [33:00]

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5. Legal Challenges and Public Resistance

Timestamp: 37:30

The discussion shifts to the legal battles facing Trump’s administration, including a new lawsuit aimed at halting the president’s efforts to nullify the 14th Amendment and force federal employees to resign. Rachel Maddow highlights the unprecedented scale of legal pushback and the active resistance from both public and political spheres.

Notable Points:

• A federal judge has blocked Trump’s attempt to invalidate the 14th Amendment, citing clear constitutional violations.
• Massive increase in call volumes to Senate offices, indicating public outcry.
• Creative forms of resistance among federal employees, such as using spoon emojis to mock Trump’s “fork in the road” ultimatum.

Key Quote:

“He has absolutely no right in shutting down USAID. We cannot allow that.”
— Senator Brian Schatz [23:17]

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6. In-Depth Interview with Samantha Power

Timestamp: 28:41 – 37:25

Rachel Maddow conducts an extensive interview with Samantha Power, delving deeper into the ramifications of Trump’s actions against USAID. Power passionately argues that dismantling USAID not only disrupts vital humanitarian efforts but also strategically benefits adversarial nations like China and Russia by weakening U.S. soft power.

Notable Points:

• USAID’s role in supporting democracy, anti-corruption initiatives, and independent journalism globally.
• The economic impact on American farmers through the interruption of foreign aid programs worth $2 billion.
• The global health crisis exacerbated by the shutdown of USAID’s Ebola response team in Uganda.

Key Quotes:

“It's a gift to China. It's a gift to Russia.”
— Rachel Maddow [37:00]

“These are people who work in the private sector. These are people who work in the private sector who Trump has just thrown out of a job.”
— Rachel Maddow [19:50]

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7. Senate Floor Drama and Final Remarks

Timestamp: 39:10 – 46:25

The episode covers the ongoing Senate filibuster as Democratic senators, led by Senator Tim Kaine, intensify their efforts to block Russell Vogt’s confirmation. Kaine emphasizes the unconstitutional nature of Vogt’s proposed budgetary control, framing it as an existential threat to American democracy.

Notable Points:

• Senator Kaine outlines Vogt’s radical views on the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) and executive overreach.
• The Senate remains in a prolonged session, with 37 Democratic senators committed to resisting Vogt’s nomination.
• Emphasis on the need for bipartisan cooperation to counteract Trump’s unconstitutional actions.

Key Quote:

“We have to fight. We have to be vigilant.”
— Senator Tim Kaine [41:26]

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8. Additional Legal Controversies

Timestamp: 46:25 – End

Maddow touches upon President Trump’s appointment of Ed Martin as interim U.S. Attorney for D.C., highlighting Martin’s conflict of interest in dropping charges against a January 6th rioter. This move is portrayed as another instance of Trump undermining the rule of law.

Notable Points:

• Ed Martin’s dual role as a former defense attorney for a January 6th participant and current U.S. Attorney violates conflict of interest protocols.
• Criticism of Martin’s attempt to terminate federal cases involving his former clients without proper recusal.

Key Quote:

“This is not even the children’s book definition.”
— Rachel Maddow [48:00]

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Conclusion

Rachel Maddow’s episode meticulously dissects President Trump’s initial actions in his second term, particularly his assault on USAID and the broader implications for American democracy and global standing. Through detailed reporting, interviews with key figures like Samantha Power, and real-time coverage of Senate resistance, the show underscores the significant backlash from both the public and political institutions. The episode serves as a comprehensive analysis of the legal and societal battles underway, highlighting the resilience and determination of those opposing what they perceive as a constitutional crisis.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Rachel Maddow [01:02]: “There were protests absolutely all over the country today two and a half weeks into this new administration.”
• Rachel Maddow [15:45]: “Everything they're doing is illegal.”
• Senator Brian Schatz [23:17]: “We're running on a red alarm screaming in the night.”
• Samantha Power [33:00]: “These investments come from the people and they make that difference. And that’s hearts and minds.”
• Senator Brian Schatz [23:17]: “He has absolutely no right in shutting down USAID. We cannot allow that.”
• Rachel Maddow [37:00]: “It's a gift to China. It's a gift to Russia.”
• Rachel Maddow [19:50]: “These are people who work in the private sector who Trump has just thrown out of a job.”
• Senator Tim Kaine [41:26]: “We have to fight. We have to be vigilant.”
• Rachel Maddow [48:00]: “This is not even the children’s book definition.”

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Note: This summary omits advertisement segments and non-content introductions/outros to focus solely on the substantive discussions and analyses presented in the episode.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Rachel Maddow]

This was Austin, Texas today. Thousands of people marching through downtown Austin, Texas, ultimately converging on the State Capitol today. The Austin American Statesman reports that it was so loud outside that it was loud inside the Capitol building, in the Senate Chamber and in Capitol offices. They said it was loud enough to be heard despite the fact that all these folks were outdoors. People who participated in this protest today in Austin, Texas, said as the march wound its way around the Capitol and through downtown, people in Austin just started flooding out of the buildings along the route of the march and joining the march. That was Austin. This was Olympia, Washington today. This was Richmond, Virginia today. This was Trenton, New Jersey today. This was Columbia, South Carolina today. This was Sacramento. Look at this. This was Sacramento, California today. Look at that. This was Phoenix in Arizona, which is of course the site of the State Capitol. But Arizona was one of many states today where people didn't only demonstrate at the State Capitol. Arizona also, for example, had a pretty significant protest turnout in Tucson. Similarly, Pennsylvania is a state where, yes, people protested at the State Capitol today in Harrisburg, but people also turned out protesting today in Pittsburgh and in Philadelphia in large numbers as well. In New York, there were protesters today at the State Capitol in Albany. But in New York, there were also protesters today in Syracuse, and there were also protesters today in large numbers in New York City. There were protests today in Lansing, Michigan, and in Columbus, Ohio. Protests today in Springfield, Illinois. Protests today, large protests today in Chicago, Illinois. People turned out to protest today in the snow and bitter cold at the state capitol in the great state of Maine. And people turned out in icy, freezing rain at the state capitol in Indianapolis. There were protests today in Little Rock, Arkansas. There were protests today in Carson City, Nevada. Protests today In Concord, N.H. protests today in Salt Lake City, Utah. Protests today in Rhode island at the Rhode Island State Capitol building. There were protests today at Hartford, Connecticut. Protests today in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Protests today in Montpelier, Vermont. Protests today at Tallahassee, the state capitol in Florida, protests also in Tampa. Large protests in Tampa. Protests today in Salem, Oregon, and protests today in Atlanta, Georgia. And I could go on, but you know what? I know I missed a bunch, but I think you're getting the flavor here. There were protests absolutely all over the country today two and a half weeks into this new administration. Protests against the destruction of the federal government. Protests against what appears to be the illegal mass firing of government officials and shutdown of government agencies that they are not by law allowed to shut down. Red hot anger at these protests today about the president allowing his top campaign donor to access the sensitive personal and financial and apparently now health related information about all American citizens that is held in government computer systems. Him handing that information over to his top campaign donor apparently without restriction and without regard to law. I mean, forgive me, but whatever genius strategists are telling people who are opposed to Trump, oh, hold your fire. Nobody's going to be upset yet, you know, nobody's going to be upset yet about what they're doing to immigrants and what they're doing to trans people and shutting off foreign aid. None of these are popular issues. Nobody's going to care about giving the president's top donor all your private information without your consent. Nobody's going to care about these kinds of things. So don't complain yet, will complain later. Any genius armchair strategists giving that kind of advice to the country right now? Allow me to suggest that they are not in touch with how real people really do feel about what really is just a lawless blitzkrieg in these first two and a half weeks of this new Trump term. The protests all over the country in red states and blue states coast to coast today, these aren't even the first. These protests today follow the big protests against immigration arrests and deportations that happened this weekend, including protests that shut down a major freeway in Los Angeles. They follow this really quite large and quite Dramatic, no notice, impromptu, dramatic protest at the US Treasury Building in Washington last night. Like all these protests we're covering in the past few days, this came together on very, very short notice. I say it was effectively impromptu. This protest at Treas was not announced until Sunday night. For it to happen less than 48 hours later in Washington at the Treasury Building. By the time it came together last night, there literally were thousands of people and there were dozens of members of Congress as well. Shut down the Senate. Shut down the Senate. Shut down the Senate. Shut down the Senate. Shut down the Senate. Shut down the Senate. Crowd shouting there. Shut down the Senate. Meaning Democrats should use the power that they have in the Senate to shut that down as a means of trying to stop or slow down or at least complicate the worst of what Trump is trying to do. And, you know, maybe that sounds like an extreme tactic, but even our usually shy major news outlets are starting to run little headlines here and there, raising a teeny tiny flag or two that everything they're doing appears to be quite illegal. I mean, this was the New York Times and the Washington Post simultaneously. Today in the Times, Trump brazenly defies laws in escalating executive power grab. In the post, U.S. government officials privately warn Musk's blitz appears illegal. Yeah, I don't know how private and quiet these supposed warnings are at this point. They're not even warnings, they're just descriptions of what's happening. I mean, that same article from the Washington Post quotes an expert saying, quote, so many of these things are so wildly illegal that I think they're playing a quantity game. And assuming the system can't react to all this illegality at once, that's not a private warning that there might be some illegality coming down the road. That's a red alarm. That is a red alarm screaming in the night. Everything they're doing is illegal. Well, you know, one way to react to that is for the opposition to start shutting down everything they can to try to stop it. That has been the message to elected Democrats from many of their constituents this week. Now, tonight, Chuck Schumer, the Democratic leader in the Senate, says that he does want all Democrats to now start doing everything they can to block all Trump nominees. He had not previously said that. As of today, that's what he's saying. And he is the leader of the Senate Democrats. Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, a progressive who had nevertheless previously voted for a couple of Trump's nominees. Now, Senator Murphy says tonight that that's over. Telling the Times, quote, it would not help us to be working with Republicans at the very moment the Constitution is being lit on fire. This moment demands some extraordinary tactics. He will not support anybody else who is being nominated to join this administration. The extraordinary tactics he's talking about tonight include this. This is happening right now on the US Senate floor. And this is going to be a scene that you're going to see all night long, because Democrats plan to hold the Senate floor all night long tonight to protest the pending confirmation of a Trump nominee named Russell Vogt. That's him. He's the guy who wrote Project 2025. He's the Trump nominee who masterminded the whole idea of just cutting off government funding for things that Congress funded, even though that's illegal. That, of course, set the stage for Trump's top donor, Elon Musk, to personally assert that he has the right to illegally stop payments going out of the US treasury because he doesn't like them. That whole idea came from Russell Vote saying the President doesn't have to follow the law about government money. Senator Brian Schatz of Hawaii is leading this all night long filibuster in the Senate right now and overnight tonight, against the confirmation of Russell Vote. Brian Schatz is going to step off the Senate floor and join us live here in just a few minutes. You will want to see that interview. I should tell you, though, that the Senate is already in a ruckus as Americans are flooding it with calls demanding answers about what Trump is doing. And I don't just say that as like a term of. I don't just mean that as like the idiomatic way people are, you know, making calls. I mean, we've got really specific metrics that show that people really, really are making calls. Look at this from Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski today, who said the usual call volume coming into the US Senate is about 40 calls a minute. Wow. Sounds like a lot. 40 calls a minute. Right now it's 1600 calls a minute. She said that in a post apologizing to her constituents that her staff is having a hard time getting back to everybody. The Associated Press reported today that basically no one's getting through as they are calling Senate offices because the call volume of complaints is so massive. The AP further reporting that Republican senators in particular have just had their systems, their phone systems completely swamped. That's on the Senate side over on the House side. It's dramatic there, too. I don't know if you saw this headline today, but the drama on the House side today included this look at this. Quote, two Democratic lawmakers, Congresswoman Judy Chu of California and Gwen Moore of Wisconsin, barged into House Speaker Mike Johnson's office unscheduled today and challenged him about Elon Musk's team gaining access to a sensitive payment system at the Treasury Department. Their intrusion comes amid an escalation of Democratic backlash against, against Musk's sweep through the federal government. These congresswomen barged in, quote, shortly after Treasury Secretary Scott Besant arrived at the Speaker's office. Besant gave members of Musk's so called Department of Government efficiency access to the treasury payment system last weekend. That system controls trillions of dollars in payments for Social Security tax refunds and myriad other government functions. Congresswoman Judy Chu told reporters about how it happened today. She said, quote, Gwen Moore forced her way in there and then I got to go in right behind her. She said, quote, and she was already confronting Speaker Johnson about Treasury Secretary Besant and the stealing of Americans private information, tax information that should never be stolen and given to this billionaire, Elon Musk. Gwen Moore forced her way in there that I got to go in right behind her. How rude. It's terrible. And the pushback continues to take many forms, including some unexpected ones. Today we did get a new lawsuit filed by one of the National Labor Relations Board members who Trump illegally fired this past week. It looks like we're about to get another lawsuit filed by somebody else who Trump illegally fired from the eeoc. Today, another federal judge blocked this sort of wildly, brazenly unconstitutional gambit from Trump's first day to declare the 14th Amendment to the Constitution to be null and void, saying it's no longer true that if you're born here, you're an American. At the end of a court hearing on this matter this morning, this federal judge just ruled right then and there in her Maryland courtroom. She said, quote, trump's executive order conflicts with the plain language of the 14th Amendment. It contradicts 125-year-old binding Supreme Court precedent. And, and it runs counter to our nation's 250 year history of citizenship by birth. The judge said, quote, no court in the country has ever endorsed the President's interpretation. This court will not be the first. And see, tomorrow is the deadline. Tomorrow midnight, for extra drama is the deadline issued by Trump and his top donor, Elon Musk, telling millions of federal workers they need to resign their jobs by tomorrow midnight or else. There's been pretty incredible organizing around this. Federal workers essentially warning each other in detail and with receipts that what Musk And Trump are offering people to try to get them to resign is actually something it's illegal for them to offer. There's now been a major federal lawsuit filed as of today to stop the resign or else threats from being effectuated tomorrow at midnight. So that is worth watching over the course of tomorrow to see whether that essentially is enjoined to stop Trump and Musk from going through with those resign or else threats to federal workers. But I said some of the pushback is happening in unexpected ways. I will say one of the things that happened today happened at the General Services Administration gsa. One of Musk's guys held a video meeting with a whole division of employees at the gsa. And Musk's guy was telling them at this video meeting, this video conference, that they really ought to consider this fork in the road offer. That's what they're calling it, this fork in the road offer that demands their resignations and threatens them if they don't do it. In this video conference with Musk's guy, the employees there at GSA responded, I don't know. Am I allowed to say they responded beautifully? Is that okay? Quote, his assurances did not appear to work. Employees in the division then rained down spoon emojis. Spoon emojis. In the chat that accompanied the video meeting, which was watched by more than 600 people, according to photos of the chat screen provided to the Times and three people familiar with the reaction, some employees then added spoon emojis to their statuses on Slack. Oh, you want us to take your. Your fork in the road? Oh, you. Do you think we should take this fork in the road? How about fork you. Here's a million spoon emojis. They think people are just gonna roll over and go along with them while they destroyed the government. Really? People weren't going to get mad and also get creative and also laugh in your face. Fork in the road. The one place that they really have done everything they can to just destroy a part of the government, even though it's illegal for them to do so, is of course, at usaid, which does foreign aid. And there's different arguments about this. I think presumably they started there and they went for their most radical action there because they figured that Americans wouldn't care because they figured that this was not going to be an issue that Americans thought was an important thing. This is something that, you know, only, only Beltway elites would care about, and their voters, people in the heartland, they definitely wouldn't care because obviously it has nothing to do with them. Huh? How's that working out? Here's News Channel 12, KWCH in Wichita, Kansas. The Kansas Farmers Union warns that disruptions to this program could eliminate an entire market for Kansas farmers. The initiative sends excess crops like wheat and sorghum to food insecure regions worldwide. It'll certainly be an economic hit to Kansas farmers. USAID purchases about $2 billion worth of commodities that are grown not just here in Kansas, but across the country every year. Kansas farmers freaking out about this because where do you think American food aid comes from? Does it come from Mars? No, we do not Occupy Mars. No. American food aid largely comes from a place called America, where Americans live. The Associated Press has been all over this this week, reporting that what Trump and Rubio and Musk have done already with this foreign aid gambit has already stuck. Literally hundreds of millions of dollars worth of food and medicine that has already been delivered to ports abroad. But it's sitting stuck in ports and it can't be unloaded because nobody knows what these clowns are doing. And they tried to do this with a stroke, with a pen and no planning that includes American grown food sold to the program by American farmers. Kansas Republican Senator Jerry Moran among those freaking out about the perishable American grown food that is now sitting there to rot. With all the American farmers and contractors who supply these programs being told how great it is that Elon's feeding this part of the US Government to the wood chipper. And shouldn't we all be cheering that at just one trade association in the D.C. area, contractors have reportedly racked up $350 million in unpaid bills already just since they stopped the foreign aid. The estimated job losses in the United States just to contractors who supply these specific programs, the job loss in the United States is thought to be about 52,000 jobs. These are people who are not government employees. These are people who work in the private sector. Right? They keep saying, oh, private sector jobs are the only ones that count. If you work for the federal government, that's a low productivity job. You ought to resign. You ought to get out or else. Well, here's 52,000 people who work in the private sector who Trump has just thrown out of a job. 52,000Americans who have contract jobs related to this one agency and its programs, which they tried to blow up again just by saying so, even though it's illegal and even though they rolled it out with zero planning. I mean, please. Even if you, even if you don't consider like. Even if you don't consider stuff like this capital city of Uganda, right? This is not like backcountry. This is not like. This is a big cosmopolitan city, lots of traffic in and out of. It's the capital city of a large country, capital city of Uganda. Kampala is having its first Ebola epidemic in years right now. And there is a US team there that is would be leading the response to Ebola so it doesn't spread and among other things, come here. That Ebola team in Uganda has just been axed with no warning as Uganda is having a brand new Ebola epidemic. Does that seem smart? Even if you don't consider the fact that one of the teams just axed by Trump and Rubio and Musk with no warning is the US team that designs really highly specialized treatment regimes for individual patients who have multidrug resistant tuberculosis. Why do you need to do that? You need to do that because you don't want multi drug resistant tuberculosis to overrun the globe, right? The people who are designing specialized treatment regimes for people with potentially the most dangerous pathogen in the world axed with no warning stop work. And by the way, you can't even access your email or any of your files. Do you think that makes the people who actively have multidrug resistant tuberculosis right now somehow magically stop work on that too? I mean, even if you don't consider just the deep, deep stupidity of cutting people and programs like that, there's also plainly a political miscalculation here. A miscalculation that we the people are also stupid and we're also mean and we won't get it right and we won't care. That's why they went after USAID and foreign aid first. They were clearly wrong about that. I mean, this was the huge, basically spontaneous protest that broke out at the USAID building on Monday when Trump ordered the building shut overnight on Sunday night. And look at this. This was today. This was today in the shadow of the U.S. capitol, in the cold again on zero notice as Americans protested simultaneously in 50 state capitals and cities all over the country. Yet more people. Look at this. Thousands of people turned up today in Washington on zero notice to try to save usaid, to stand up for foreign aid. And tons of Democratic officials showed up as well. Make no mistake about it. Elon Musk's effort to dismantle the Agency for International Development is a gift to China. It's a gift to Russia. It's a gift to our adversaries around the world.

[Senator Brian Schatz]

Who the hell does Musk think he is? He has absolutely no right in shutting down usaid. We cannot allow that. We've got to take to the streets. We've got to take to the rallies. We've got to fight back. And we must resist every motion, every action by Musk and Trump to shut down this government. In the Congress, we must equally resist what is happening. We cannot let it go on. We must resist. We must be in the streets. We must take every possible action to stop what is happening. Don't just show up here. They're not choosing. I'm with community health centers today in Virginia. They're getting shut down in red parts of the state and blue parts of the state. We're only going to break this when we have Republicans willing to stand up as well. Put the pressure not just on us, but on everyone, every elected official level. That's the only way we're going to win this.

[Rachel Maddow]

This is a big day today. I mean, that was Washington. After what I just showed you at the top of what was happening in all 50 states in the country simultaneously. Oh, yeah. Don't protest now. Keep your powder dry. I think people are plenty mad already. They're taking as much ground as they can as fast as they can. They're seeing what gets them pushed back. You know what gets them pushed back, all the things they thought would be easy. There's another protest tomorrow against their attack on foreign aid, specifically on the HIV programs tomorrow at the State Department building at 11:00am it's all happening at once. Samantha Power, who ran USAID under President Biden, she's here next. Stay with us.

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[Rachel Maddow]

This is from the Boston Globe. 1995 July 1995's Serb forces in the conquered UN safe area of Srebrenica yesterday completed one of the largest ethnic cleansing operations in the bloody 39 month long war. Serbian television showed the genocidal military leader handing out chocolates to children and cigarettes to adults. You don't have to be afraid of anything, he said as he guided refugees onto buses. Most of them did not return. That reporting was special to the Boston Globe from Bosnia. It was filed by a woman named Samantha Power, reporter At the time she was quite fresh out of college. Samantha Power got her start as a very young war correspondent in Bosnia, witnessing genocide up close. Ultimately, her work in the field included a book called A Problem from America and the Age of Genocide. It won the Pulitzer Prize in 2003. Samantha Power went on to become a foreign policy advisor to a young freshman senator named Barack Obama. When he became president, she became his special assistant on human rights and then his ambassador to the United Nations. Most recently. In fact, up until just a few weeks ago, Samantha Power was the head of usaid, the agency of the US Government that is in charge of overseeing all of the aid and assistance the United States does around the world. And that is what the Trump administration thought would be its low hanging fruit, the first agency they'd try to just outright destroy, even though they have no power under the law to do so. I think they thought there would be no pushback as Trump put all federal foreign aid and almost all USAID workers on ice, putting them on leave if not firing them outright. As of last night, what remained of USAID's website has been replaced with just this, just a giant furlough notice for all staff at the agency. Joining us now is Samantha Power. She is former administrator of usaid. Madam Ambassador, thank you very much for being with us tonight. I doubt this is where you want to be spending this evening. I really appreciate you making the choice.

[Samantha Power]

To be here, of course. Thank you for caring about this.

[Rachel Maddow]

I know that you're still in touch with a lot of your former colleagues and employees at usaid. Beyond what we're seeing in the headlines, what else can you tell us to help us understand what's actually happening here.

[Samantha Power]

Well, you can imagine when you suddenly in your inbox find a termination notice or a leave of absence notice that you didn't expect to get on a flawed predicate, that you're doing radical leftist insubordination. It's pretty jarring. And because there's so many lies and falsehoods circulating and so many claims that people are sort of not with the program, I think people are just completely dislocated. There's no stable ground on which to walk. And then of course, most of them have been laid off, so they're worried about how they're going to pay the bills and how they're going to make rent. But maybe the part that is the most striking and for me, inspiring, if not surprising, having worked there for four years, is that, you know, the people who work at USAID did not come to work at USAID for the money. The civil servants, the foreign servants, the contractors, they came to USAID because they wanted to make a difference in the world, because they saw America's interests as tied up with the interests of people, vulnerable people around the world. And so even as they're struggling to figure out how to make rent, all of a sudden they're most struggling with the fear that so many millions of people who relied on us as a country, on USAID as an agency, but on them as individuals, that those individuals out in the world have no place to turn. And indeed, they're showing up and finding health clinics shuttered and soup kitchens close and advisers who were helping governments renegotiate debt with China, those advisors, you know, now taken off the books. So just the wreckage in the world is what the USAID staff that I'm in touch with are carrying with them. That's what's keeping them up at night as much as the question of what am I going to do tomorrow? And, you know, how do I take care of my family?

[Rachel Maddow]

Let me ask you about that sort of outward looking part of this calculation that I think you just alluded to a little bit there. Even as we're focusing on the human cost and what's happened to all these careers and what's happened to these individual programs, even just trying to, because, I mean, USAID works in 120 countries. It does so many different things. I think it's hard to get one picture in your head of what it's done. But we do, when looking outward from the program, have a very clear picture that is summed up in a New York Times headline headline. Tonight foreign strongmen cheer as Musk dismantles U.S. aid agency leaders in Russia, Hungary and El Salvador welcome the Trump administration's assault on usaid, which many authoritarians have seen as a threat. We've also, of course, seen the Kremlin cheering Elon Musk at destroying this agency. Why do authoritarian leaders hate USAID so much?

[Samantha Power]

Well, I think for a couple reasons. They don't like democracy. They want the United States ultimately to fail and our model to fail. And they recognize something that clearly some of the US don't yet recognize, which is how vital US Aid is to advancing US Interests. And American strength resides in the goodwill we buy, but also our security resides in our ability to, to squash that Ebola outbreak in Uganda, to make sure that those flights that come from Kampala don't contain people with Ebola who bring that disease elsewhere. So they root against America, they root against democracy, Therefore, they root against USAID and are thrilled that it's the United States government itself that is taking this agency off the field. But the other reason they're cheering is that USAID does really important democracy work, really important anti corruption work, supporting independent journalism journalists, training them to make sure that they can go out and about and cast sunlight on what is going on in those countries. So a lot of the elections, for example, that Maduro stole or that Putin rigged, the documentation of that happens because brave Venezuelans or Russians are out there willing to document that. And some of that training over the years has come from the United States and specifically from usaid. So democracy programming is a small part of the overall enterprise of development and humanitarian response. But it's one that definitely gets under the skin of the dictators.

[Rachel Maddow]

It does feel like the firings and putting people on leave in a mass way does appear to be pretty blatantly illegal and in violation of all sorts of legal protections that people have who work for agencies like USAID and other parts of the US Government. It also seems like the overall effort to shutter the agency, to fundamentally turn it into something else, to move it from being an independent agency inside the State Department, to get rid of it, just appeals to be pretty blatantly against the law. We know that a new lawsuit has been filed essentially to challenge that element of what the administration is trying to do. As those legal fights get underway, though, for the individual people in the agency and for the efforts to attack the agency itself, are you heartened at all? Do you think it matters that people are standing up for USAID and foreign aid and turning up at demonstrations and making a stink about it, not only in Washington, but all around the country.

[Samantha Power]

I think it matters massively. I mean, as you said, I think in your introduction, you know, the calculated bet here was that this was for foreigners. And again, the people who are trying to destroy the agency aren't people who know anything about what USA does. They don't know that we deliver magical peanut paste made in rural Georgia. That Georgian farmers care passionately about being part of providing this paste to severely malnourished kids in sub Saharan Africa. That they take pride in bringing those kids basically back to life by virtue of providing the so called ready to use therapeutic food. They don't. These people who are trying to destroy usaid, how essential the investments in the economies overseas have been to US Companies ability to find markets. They don't know that American farmers, that USAID buys about $2 billion worth of farm commodities from American farmers. They're starting to learn about it because you're seeing even red state senators speaking up on behalf of their farmers. So there is a lot of misinformation, it's all misinformation about what USA does, about the lion's share of the investments that we make overseas, about who we're helping. And so it's not just about the activation that we're seeing happening in the Congress and all around the country. It's about bringing forward these truths about who we are, who we are as a nation, and why from the American people these investments are made. Because that is USAID's slogan. It's not USAID, the government. It's that these investments, investments come from the people and they make that difference. And that's hearts and minds. When we go and seek to open up a market for a US company, it matters that we have bought that kind of goodwill by virtue of the lives that have been saved and affected. But it also matters for US Security. And I think there's just not a fundamental appreciation of that. It matters in the strategic competition with the prc, with China. There's not an appreciation of that again by the individuals who are taking out this agency. But the truth is on the side of the agency, the facts for the American people, for the American economy, for those jobs that are going to be lost and can now be saved if people activate and particularly if Republicans join with Democrats in speaking up on behalf of efforts that have had so much bipartisan support for so many decades.

[Rachel Maddow]

Ambassador Samantha Power, who until recently was the administrator of usaid, really, really appreciate you being here. Thank you for your time tonight. I know this is a profoundly difficult time. Thanks for being here.

[Samantha Power]

Thank you, Rachel.

[Rachel Maddow]

All right, much more news ahead. Stay with us.

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[Senator Tim Kaine]

This is the ability for the executive branch to literally seize power, storm into the offices of an agency that they hate, and shut it down operationally. That's not our system of government, and that's why we're going to be fighting all night about this issue.

[Rachel Maddow]

Democrats have been holding the floor on the U.S. senate all day today. They started at 2:17pm Eastern time. This is a live look at the Senate floor right now, where Virginia Senator Tim Kaine is taking his term at the podium. But it has been all day. They have not given up the floor. You heard Senator Brian Schatz of Hawaii say there at the top that they're going to be fighting all night about this issue. The issue as they're defining it is a guy named Russell Vogt, who's Trump's nominee for White House budget director. Vogt is the chief proponent of the theory that Donald Trump can essentially eliminate Congress's role in the US Government and defund anything they say to do on his own say so, even though that's not how the US Government works. Well tonight, Democrats are using the rules of the Senate. They're using the rights of the Senate minority to take up as much time as they humanly can to slow down votes nomination as much as they possibly. The other point of what they're doing here, of course, is to draw the American people's attention to just how radical this nominee is and why he should not be confirmed and why what he proposes as our new form of US Government would not be the democracy and the tripartite split system of government that makes us who we are. The first Democratic senator to announce he would really throw his body into the gears of the government like this was Senator Brian Schatz of Hawaii. Earlier this week, he said he would block all State Department nominations until Trump reversed his act onreversed his attack on U.S. humanitarian aid. Now tonight, right now, individual other Senate Democrats have followed that strategy. Senator Chuck Schumer is suggesting to Democrats that they should be taking that strategy broadly with all Trump nominees. And tonight holding the Senate floor, they're really taking this strategy with shots first announced and running with it as far as they possibly can. Joining us now from the Senate is Senator Brian Schatz, Democrat of Hawaii. Senator Schatz, I appreciate you stepping off the floor and being with us. I know it's been a long day and it's going to be a long night.

[Senator Tim Kaine]

Thanks, Rachel, for covering this. I appreciate it.

[Rachel Maddow]

Let me ask how you and your colleagues are holding up and what ultimately you think will be the result of holding this floor all evening tonight?

[Senator Tim Kaine]

Well, we're fine. There's going to be 37 of us talking. We will not relinquish the floor for 30 hours until the final vote on Mr. Russ Vogt. And you said it exactly right. Russ Vogt is an unusual Office of Management and Budget nominee. This is a job. You shouldn't know the name of the person running the omb, but he is the he is actually one of the authors of Project 2025 and he has a very specific view of OMB. He basically thinks the OMB director should be the king's hand and represent the president in all things throughout the government, legislative, executive branch, wherever. He was the architect of the federal funding freeze that happened last week where Medicaid portals were shut down, where Head Start was shut down, where construction projects were shut down. And he's got a lot more ideas for the American people and none of them are good. He also basically views laws as optional. We pass an appropriations bill and then he thinks that he gets to just say well, Donald Trump doesn't like it, so we're going to shutter that agency. Look, if you don't like particular part of the federal government, there is a way to change the federal government, and it's through your elected representatives in Congress. And I don't mean to be so fussy about these kinds of things, but this is the American system of democracy. So there's two problems with Russ vote. One is that what he proposes to do and what they have already done is illegal. And the other is that what they are doing is already harming people across the country.

[Rachel Maddow]

The first part of that, the illegal part of that, I think, is sticking in everybody's craw. Because it used to be when credible people who know the law pointed out that something is illegal, it was part of a sentence in which you were saying, you can't do that because it's illegal. What we're seeing over and over again in this second Trump term, particularly from ideas that sprung from the brain of people like Russ Fot, is that they are doing things that seem plainly illegal, and yet they are still doing them. I think the frustration and the exasperation of the American people on that front is that I think we all thought that the law would stop them sort of enjoin them from doing things that are against the law. How should we understand that tension, that lack of what's allowed them to do this stuff that feels so lawless?

[Senator Tim Kaine]

Be angry, but don't give up. Because what they want you to believe is that the law doesn't apply to them. Now, it's true that if they flood the zone and violate the law in multiple areas, it actually takes time for the court system to stop them. But last week, there was an injunction that was made final this week against the spending freeze. They also rejected the United States government's stupid argument about birthright citizenship. So one of the things that we need to do is not concede that this president and this president only is unconstrained by the law. He's going to try to violate the law in multiple places. But we have to not concede the point that when he writes an EO saying, for instance, I'm going to get rid of the Department of Education or the Bureau of Indian Education or the USAID Department, like, he can't do that. He may be able to do tons of damage in the meantime, but eventually most, if not all of these things will be overturned in a court of law and they've got to follow it. It's also true, and you know this, Rachel that the courts are tilted in Donald Trump's favor. But that's when it's a relatively close call, when there is a clear statute that they're violating. Even conservative judges and justices have batted them down. So we need to be furious, we need to be alarmed, but we need not to be despondent and as if this person has already been installed as a monarch. We've got to fight. We've got to be vigilant. We've got to understand what happened in places like Belarus and elsewhere and Turkey. But we cannot give up. It's way too early to give up. And one of the things that gives me the most hope over the last week is that people are starting to show up in three dimensions at the treasury building across the state of Hawaii, across the country. It's not the resistance. It's not going to be pink hats again again. It's not going to be the same vibe. But there is a citizen movement now to take our country back. And once we're starting to see each other, we're starting to think, okay, it's going to take people in the legislative branch fighting. It's going to take smarter political operatives, it's going to take people in the media, it's going to take people in the civil service refusing to obey illegal orders, and it's going to take citizens everywhere supporting all of those efforts.

[Rachel Maddow]

Well, your fury and your alarm on this led you to say that Democrats needed to be doing more than they were already doing. They needed to be taking more extreme measures. You have been pushing your own party to take the kind of steps that you're taking tonight with leading this effort in the Senate. And for that, you, unfortunately, are going to be cursed with lots more invitations to be on cable news. So say yes more often. Senator, we need you at times like this. Thank you for being here tonight.

[Senator Tim Kaine]

Thank you.

[Rachel Maddow]

All right. Senator Brian Schatz, Democrat of Hawaii. Again, Democrats holding the floor tonight as we speak. They're planning on doing so around the clock overnight to try to fight back as hard as they can, to try to make it as annoying as possible and as slow as possible to get Russell vote confirmed as the budget director. This is happening right now live in the senate in Washington, D.C. stay with us. One of the neat things Donald Trump did to kick off his second term as president is he named an interim U.S. attorney, a lead prosecutor in Washington who had been a defense attorney for January 6th rioters. Well, we now know that one of the first things he did in his first full day on the job is that he told a US federal court to drop charges against a January 6 rioter who had been his client. From Reuters today, quote, lawyers generally are prohibited from taking both sides in the same case. And U.S. justice Department regulations require lawyers to step aside from cases involving their former clients for at least a year. That did not stop Ed Martin, the interim U.S. attorney for D.C. from attaching his name to the federal government's request to end its case against one of his own clients who took part in the January 6 attack. Lawyers are generally prohibited from taking both sides in the same case. Yeah, you think this is like. Have you heard the phrase conflict of interest? This is like. This is not even the children's book definition. This is one of those super early reader board books. The kind you can also chew on, right? I mean. Oh, conflict of interest, right? I know we're not paying attention to things being totally illegal anymore, but literally, a kindergartner could understand. What is wrong with it this. A lawyer can't take both sides of the same case. If you were involved as the defense lawyer in a case and now you work for the Justice Department, that is a case you're not allowed to work on, Ed. Reuters notes that state rules in Missouri, where Ed Martin is licensed, ban government lawyers from handling cases involving their clients without written consent. Nevertheless, a quote, private spokesperson for Ed Martin said he's in complete compliance with the requirements for his position. Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure. I'm sure that clears it up. Anyway, congratulations, Pam Bondi on your first full day as Attorney General of the United States. How about this as a little problem to clean up? How about this is a little problem right there at home, right there in D.C. i'll be right back. All right, that's gonna do it for me and my random spoons tonight. Do we still have spoons? Ah, there they are. All right, I'll see you again tomorrow and every night this week at 9pm Eastern. In the meantime, you can find me and all my spoons on bluesky. Do you have Blue sky yet? You should try it. I'm on bluesky.com.

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