← The Rachel Maddow Show
The Rachel Maddow Show
Trump is a repeat loser as his slash-and-burn rampage collides with U.S. law
00:42:30
Rachel Maddow reports on yet another bad day in the courts for Donald Trump as he was made to restore jobs his top campaign donor, Elon Musk, had slashed, and was similarly made to restore USAID, another victim of Musk's DOGE, and lastly, had his anti-trans military policy rejected and was given a lesson in the language of the Declaration of Independence for good measure.
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- [00:00]
Rachel Maddow
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- [00:31]
Unknown (possibly a comedic character)
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- [01:00]
Timothy Snyder
Really happy to have you here. So these are Trump voters. These are people who voted for Donald Trump in this past election. They are all voters from swing state Michigan.
- [01:11]
Unknown (focus group moderator)
So by a show of fingers, who approves of what Elon Musk has been doing in the Trump administration? None of you? Who disapproves? All seven of you? Cheryl, tell me why you disapprove of what Musk is doing.
- [01:39]
Rachel Maddow
Because he wasn't elected to do anything. Like, I don't, I don't understand his position. It's a made up position that they made department or whatever. And he's been going through with the sledgehammer, just actually dismantling everything with the approval of Trump. So I'm almost at the point, where did he actually buy the election to do what he wanted to do? Like who's running our country? He was even in the Oval Office during a meeting with his kid on his neck. Like what I feel like we are a reality show. America is, is awful.
- [02:20]
Timothy Snyder
It's awful. And these are all Trump voters. This is an engageous focus group done with Trump voters this past week in Michigan.
- [02:32]
Unknown (focus group moderator)
So someone listening to you folks might say he was president for four years, you knowingly chose to put him back in office. Having watched him in office for four years, sounds like a number of you are surprised by what he's doing. How can you be surprised?
- [02:50]
Unknown (focus group participant)
I don't feel like he was this aggressive last time because I don't think anyone would have voted for him if they expected to see what we're seeing now. I don't understand the need to make like piss every other country off. Like Canada. Like, we, we love Canada, don't we? Like, I just, my whole life there's never been a problem with Canada. And all Of a sudden, you know, now we're so, we're like trying to create issues with Canada. I don't know. I thought he was going to, like, change things with affordability and make things cheaper, but by like putting these tariffs in and terrorizing the world now things are just getting more expensive, I feel like, than they already are. So everything I believe was going to happen, I think is going to go the opposite direction.
- [03:34]
Rachel Maddow
I feel like a lot of his.
- [03:35]
Timothy Snyder
Actions have just been disruptive and creating chaos.
- [03:39]
Congressman Don Beyer
He didn't come out and be real with us and say, hey, I'm going to cut hundreds of thousands of jobs and you could possibly your bills are going to go up. Like that wasn't campaign.
- [03:49]
Unknown (focus group moderator)
Caitlyn, I just want to circle back to you for a second. So you voted for Trump in 2024, but you've been very critical of him so far in our conversation. Someone watching this might say, why did she vote for the guy?
- [04:03]
Timothy Snyder
Sure.
- [04:04]
Rachel Maddow
I think what he campaigned with and.
- [04:07]
Unknown (focus group participant)
Compared to what he's doing is pretty opposite.
- [04:09]
Timothy Snyder
Yeah, I just didn't, I didn't see this coming. I didn't think he was going to.
- [04:13]
Unknown (possibly a comedic character)
Take these, these points of views that he's taking.
- [04:16]
Rachel Maddow
It's upsetting. I thought that his first hundred days like he talked about would be so much better than they are. It's a little frightening, too. He's so erratic, and it's getting to the point where I'm almost scared to watch the news. I mean, it's a little bit frightening.
- [04:40]
Timothy Snyder
These are Donald Trump voters, Donald Trump, 2024 voters in Michigan. And they say they not only feel confused and frightened by what Trump is doing now that he's president, they're worried. In some cases, they're more than worried. They are convinced that this is all heading to the worst possible place.
- [05:01]
Rachel Maddow
If the people that we elected to be his checks and balances don't check and balance him, then what are they there for? They're closest to him than we are. And I just see it going in.
- [05:14]
Unknown (advertisement voice)
A direction that's dictator.
- [05:17]
Unknown (focus group participant)
I mean, if they don't check, I mean, if they, if Congress doesn't check them, he'll just continue to.
- [05:24]
Rachel Maddow
You know.
- [05:25]
Unknown (focus group participant)
Go his own way and just, you know, drag us down with him.
- [05:31]
Timothy Snyder
He's acting like a dictator. He's basically letting you know what he says goes. And he's not getting approval from the people, Congress. He's not taking the right, the appropriate measures to put things in place. He thinks he's, he's it. He's it. Charge. He's a king, he's a dictator, he's, you know, running everything.
- [05:55]
Rachel Maddow
No, I, I feel that he thinks that he is a king. He had the crown on. Right now we almost have to accept the fact that we're in a dictatorship. That, I mean, I don't. What he says goes. He controls the go, the governor, the government, he controls the attorneys. He's going into the offices saying he's retaliating for what they did to him. Like it's, it's chaos. Yeah, he thinks that he's a dictator and there's nothing anybody can do to stop him. He has immunity from everything. So how we to strip him from his powers? How, how can we put them in jail? Like, who's going to do it?
- [06:49]
Timothy Snyder
Those are all voters who voted for Donald Trump in swing state Michigan this past election. A couple things on that dictator point they're making there, A couple things on that from today's news. Today was yet another really, really bad day for Donald Trump. In court today, 24,000 people who Trump has fired from federal government jobs got reinstated thanks to a court order from a federal judge in Maryland. This is the lawsuit that was brought by 20 Democratic attorneys general in 19 states. In Washington, D.C. this judge's order today forces the reinstatement of again 24,000 people that Trump has fired from 18 different agencies. The Education Department, the FDIC, which is the agency that provides insurance so your bank deposits are insured and you don't have to worry about them going away if you put your money in a bank. They're going after FDIC too? Yes, they are. The Commerce Department, Health and Human Services, Energy Department, the va, Interior Department, Labor Department, usda, General Services Administration, the Small Business Administration, the Transportation Department, the Treasury, the EPA, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, USAID. Again, 24,000 employees fired by the Trump administration from those entities reinstated by that court ruling today. And speaking of usaid, additionally on top of that ruling where USAID employees are reinstated by court order along with all those other agencies, a standalone blockbuster ruling from another federal judge today specifically ordering the Trump administration to reconstitute USAID and stop their efforts to shut it down, even to let them back into their building. The judge in this case said that the shutdown of usaid, quote, likely violated the United States Constitution in multiple ways. And in his very short two page order today, he ordered that the Trump administration must reopen usaid. This is from the order. This is interesting. Quote, for purposes of the order, defendants refers to Elon Musk in his official capacity, the United States Doge Service and their officers, agents, servants, employees and attorneys. Also, all individuals who at any time since the inauguration have served in the role of Doge team member or Doge leader, regardless of the formal personnel status of that individual. So the defendants here, everybody associated with Elon Musk and Doge, and those defendants are quote, enjoined as follows. Defendants shall reinstate access to email, payment, security, notification and all other electronic systems, including restoring deleted emails, to physical for all current USAID employees and contractors, whether in active status or on administrative leave, meaning for all the people they've tried to force out of the agency, too, they need to be reinstated. They get all their emails back. They get all their systems back. Defendants shall provide written confirmation to the court that this requirement has been satisfied within seven days of the date of this order. Also, defendants shall not take any action or engage in any work relating to the shutdown of usaid, including placing employees on administrative leave, employee terminations, reductions in force, contract terminations related to any USAID employees or contractors. There can be no termination of USAID contracts or grants, no closures of USAID buildings or bureaus or offices, no permanent shutdowns or terminations of any USAID IT systems within 14 days. Defendants shall submit to this court a written agreement among all necessary parties that ensures that USAID will be able to reoccupy its building, will be able to reoccupy USAID headquarters at the Ronald Reagan building in Washington, D.C. so they all get their jobs back. They get back in the building, they get all their emails back, and all electronic systems related to the operations of that agency, including all contracts and everything that applies both to employees and contractors. You need to stand that agency back up, because what you have done to shut it down thus far, quote, likely violated the U.S. constitution in multiple ways. Now, this, of course, will be appealed. This will not be the final word. You know, even if Trump and his top campaign donor, Elon Musk, continue to lose this badly in court on this case, there's no telling how they'll try to finagle their way out of it anyway. But, you know, thinking about the dimmer switch between democracy and dictatorship, the courts here are drawing a line. And for all Trump and Musk's sadistic glee about calling these people who work for the US Government criminals and, you know, removing their name from the building, and Elon Musk giggling and talking about putting it in a wood chipper, for all of their glee and sadism about this stuff, they're losing. They're losing Under US Law, usaid, as of today is hereby ordered back into existence under federal law. Trump was also soundly beaten in court today on his effort to try to throw trans service members out of the military. Now, the judge's ruling in this case is very measured and calm, but it just rips the Trump administration for even trying to say this is legal. Essentially, the judge ruled in this case today that the Trump administration never actually presented a real legal argument for why they think they're allowed to do this. They just asserted, with no supporting evidence that anybody who's trans by definition is unfit for military service. And legally, that's not how it works. The judge said the service records of the plaintiffs, the people who brought this case, who all have stellar military records. The judge points out that the experience of just these plaintiffs in the military disproves that they are somehow manifestly unfit just because of who they are. So the judge issued an injunction against the Trump administration in enforcing this new ban on trans people serving in the military. And the judge wrote this in her ruling, quote, the court does not issue this preliminary injunction lightly. Judicial overreach is no less pernicious than executive overreach. But the coordinate branches must, by their mutual relations, be the means of keeping each other in their proper places. And that, of course, is a quote from the Federalist Papers, from Federalist Number 51 by James Madison. The ruling continues, quote, the President and defendants could have crafted a policy that balances the nation's need for a prepared military and Americans right to equal protection. They still can't. But this ban is not that policy. The court therefore must act to uphold the equal protection rights that the military defends every day. The court's opinion is long, but its premise is simple. In the self evident truth that all people are created equal, all means all, nothing more and certainly nothing less. End quote. Trump administration just had a terrible day in the nation's courts today. They lost in court on their efforts to fire tens of thousands of people who work for 18 different government agencies. They lost in court on shutting down usaid. They lost in court on discriminating in this way against trans people. And Republicans supporting Trump are facing incredible blowback in their home districts from their own constituents on all sorts of issues. On these and all sorts of issues. Look at this. In deep red Idaho yesterday, Republican Senator Mike Crapo tried to give a speech at a paid ticketed event in Boise. But the real news story there that was covered by all the local Idaho news outlets who tried to cover it were the hundreds of people, including many military veterans who turned up and stood outside the event protesting Senator Mike Crapo, demanding that he stand up and try to stop Trump from what he's doing. Idaho, yesterday, in deep red West Virginia, big crowds that were eventually asked to move by the building owner. They were asked to move their demonstration, what turned out to be a large demonstration outside the Morgantown, West Virginia, offices of Republican Congressman Riley Moore. Again, West Virginia residents demanding that their Republican representative do more to stand up to Trump. Do something to stand up to Trump. Georgia, yesterday, Middle Georgia, the top story in the local news last night was this yesterday afternoon, constituents of Republican Congressman Austin Scott of Georgia, again, in this case, again, including many military veterans, outside his office, demanding that he meet with them, demanding that he take a stand and try to stop what Trump has been doing. He wouldn't meet with them. He won't go to a town hall. So they convened in the parking lot outside Congressman Austin Scott's district office in middle Georgia. Up in Colorado, Colorado Springs, Colorado, Congressman Jeff Crank was made into a cardboard cutout. They had this one standing up by a microphone. They had this little one that they propped up on what I think was a little can of Folgers, maybe. Look at this. Hundreds of his constituents in Colorado Springs turned up to protest against Jeff Crank not standing up to Trump and refusing to meet with him about it. Look at this. This was also yesterday. Greensboro, North Carolina, 1,000 people turned up for a Republican US senator, Thom Tillis. Town hall, at which Thom Tillis was represented by an empty chair. 1,000 people there in North Carolina mocking him for refusing to meet with them and for being too chicken to stand up to Trump on anything. And, you know, nobody likes to be mocked. It's never a nice feeling, even if you deserve it. It's a whole different level of difficult to deal with, though, when the people who are mocking you are a choir of little old ladies who are mocking you in song.
- [17:36]
Unknown (possibly a comedic character)
Where are you now? Where are you now? Where could you be? Where could you be? Where are you now?
- [17:42]
Timothy Snyder
Now?
- [17:43]
Unknown (possibly a comedic character)
Where could you be? Are you hiding at home but your chicken? Do your job, just do your job. Until it. Please just do your job. Oh, how I want to be in that number when it finally.
- [18:16]
Timothy Snyder
Greensboro, North Carolina, constituents of Republican Thom Tillis who can hold a tune for all the different ways that Donald Trump and his top campaign donor defendant Elon Musk are terrifying and turning off even their own voters, as we saw in those focus groups in Michigan, and all the ways they are terrifying and turning off and angering people who live in Trump Republican districts, for all the loss after loss after loss after loss, they are being dealt in the courts. There's one other element of what's going on with Trump that I want to point out here as a matter of. I just think this needs to be factored in more regularly when we talk about the public reaction to Trump, when we talk about public opinion of what he's doing. Because there is one thing about his presidency that, I mean, for all of the other unpopular and failing things about this young presidency, there's one thing about this presidency that is just unprecedented in how radically out of step it is with the American people. There's such a difference between what Trump wants and what the American people want on one particular issue that I actually think it is not sustainable in normal, small d Democratic terms. So I just want to. I want to put this. I want to stick a pin in this because I think this is important now, and it's going to get more important as things gets weirder and weirder. This is from the NBC News poll that just came out yesterday. Americans were asked, in the war between Russia and Ukraine, with which of those countries do you sympathize more? Ukraine. 61% of Americans said, I sympathize more with Ukraine, Russia. The proportion of Americans who say, I sympathize more with Russia is 2%. 2% sympathize with Russia. Americans are asked, okay, well, that's where your sympathies are. Where do you believe the President's sympathies are? Where do you think Trump's sympathies are? Ukraine, 8%. Russia, 49%. Overall, Trump is underwater by minus 13 points on his handling of the war between Russia and Ukraine. A significant majority of the public thinks that he is wrong in his handling of the Russia, Ukraine war. Americans asked specifically, hey, what's your idea? What's your view on Russia? The proportion of Americans who view Russia positively right now is 6%. The proportion of Americans who view Russia negatively is 68%. How about Vladimir Putin? The guy. How about himself? The proportion of Americans who have a positive view of Vladimir Putin is 3%. The proportion of Americans who have a negative view of Vladimir Putin is 84%. Okay, so the American view on this is very clear. And the American people are very aware of how different Trump's view is to their own. All right? And this is. It's a statistical oddity. I'm not sure there's ever been anything like this before in presidential politics, but this is part of what The Trump presidency means, and it accounts for some of the weirdest stuff in it. I mean, they're, you know, today in the midst of all the other chaos that he is wreaking in our own government right there today amid the news that they really are apparently going to go ahead with this change at Social Security. They're going to force 80,000 retired and disabled Americans every week to physically go in person to Social Security offices that they are also shutting down and firing people from by the thousands, as they announced today that they really are going to do that there today amid the disaster scene at FDA headquarters where they told 10,000 people to show up at an office that has 6,000 parking places with no chairs or offices for most of them. And that's how they're going to run the fda. Now they're today amid the news that they've just, oops, fired hundreds of dam operators and engineers who operate the hydroelectric dams in 17 Western states.
- [22:31]
Unknown (focus group participant)
Oops.
- [22:32]
Timothy Snyder
Accidentally fired all the people who keep the lights on and keep the dams safe there. I mean, there today, amid that sort of daily litany of that kind of wreckage, there's Donald Trump, you know, twirling his hair and spending two hours on the phone with his bestie, Vladimir Putin. Two hours on the phone, more than two hours on the phone talking to his friend Vladimir Putin, who has, again, a 3% approval rating with the American people because the American people know who he is. But for Donald Trump, there is nothing Vladimir Putin has done that is wrong. There is nothing Putin has done that he disagrees with. And there is nothing Putin has asked of him that he has not given. And more, I mean, literally, as soon as he got off the phone today, we got word via NBC News that Trump now would like the United States to give up its military leadership role in NATO. The American military command of NATO has been in force since Eisenhower. Trump's going to give it up, huh? It's weird, right? He didn't campaign on that. So many of the weirdest things about the Trump presidency, in a Trump presidency that is deeply dissatisfying even to people who voted for him, right? To a Trump presidency where he's underwater on almost everything he's doing for a Trump presidency where he's more deeply underwater on his signature issue of the economy than he's ever been in his entire life in public office, in a Trump presidency where he loses more times in court on a single day than most presidents lose in court in a term. The weirdest stuff that Donald Trump is doing seems to relate to his relationship with an affinity for a foreign dictator for whom the American people give approval ratings of 3%. I mean, Trump is now talking, he's now said multiple times in public that our border with Canada is an artificial boundary. That's how he's described it. An artificial boundary. What is that? Where is that from? Well, that is the way that Vladimir Putin talks about Ukraine. It's not the way any American has ever talked about North America ever before. But Trump now talks about Canada the way Putin talks about Ukraine. I mean, as you heard those Trump voters lament at the top of the show, Trump is doing all this stuff he never campaigned on. He is talking about a US Military invasion into Mexico. He is talking about a US Annexation of Canada. He is talking about the United States going to war with Denmark, which means NATO, in order to seize Greenland. He has talked about wanting to seize Gaza. He has talked about wanting to seize Panama and has ordered the Pentagon to develop war plans for US Troops invading Panama. Where did all this come from? I mean, for all the stuff he's doing, at least a lot of it was in the campaign. Maybe people didn't believe him. You heard those Trump voters there saying, I didn't know he'd actually do it. But this is stuff he didn't talk about at his rallies. He didn't publish tweets about this stuff. He didn't air ads about it on it. He didn't campaign on it. He didn't hear Panama and Greenland and Canada in the campaign, did you? But it's apparently what he is planning on doing now that he is in office, while he is talking frequently and at exorbitant length with his friend Vladimir Putin, who the American people approve of at a rate of 3%. I think this has to be a bigger part of what we think of when we think about the American public's reaction to the Trump presidency and American public opinion about Trump's behavior. When that NBC poll came out this week, pollster Jeff Horwitt of Heart Research Associates, who conducted that poll along with a Republican pollster, Bill McInturf of Public Opinion Strategies, he said this about those Putin and Russia numbers and how differently the American people perceive Russia and how they believe their president perceives Russia. Hart said this. He said, I cannot recall a moment in history when American public opinion and voters views of a president as to which country they are more aligned with have been more in conflict with each other. The American public in conflict with its president on this point, which seems to be driving more and more of what this president is doing. The American people very clearly are very much against Vladimir Putin. The American president is very much fighting for him. And that, amid everything else, is a test for us, because in a democracy, that sort of divide should be unsustainable, that should be correctable by democratic means. Professor Tim Snyder joins us next.
- [27:40]
Rachel Maddow
He's so erratic, and it's getting to the point where I'm almost scared to watch the news. I mean, it's, it's, it's a little bit frightening.
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Unknown (advertisement voice)
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- [29:46]
Timothy Snyder
In northern Georgia, there's a town called Gainesville. It's not Gainesville, Florida. Gainesville, Georgia, is small. It's home to about 47,000 people. Gainesville is also home to a regional office of the Social Security Administration, one of at least five Social Security offices in the state of Georgia that Donald Trump is trying to close, trying to get rid of. Look at this. Local residents in Gainesville, Georgia, just held as a protest a funeral for that Social Security office. They showed up in downtown Gainesville. They wore all black as if it was a funeral. They held little coffins that said RIP Social Security. They also focused the bulk of their attention and their rhyming skills on their local Republican Congressman, Andrew Clyde for his support for Trump. And Elon Musk see signs like this, Clyde lies as Social Security dies and KKK lied dozes while Social Security closes, spelling Clyde with three Ks. And yeah, this is a relatively small protest, but Gainesville, Georgia, is a relatively small town. The opposition to Trump is turning up in surprising places, in places that are doing it in their own totally independent, moving and creative ways. Joining us now is Timothy Snyder. He's the author of On Freedom and On Tyranny. He's the Richard C. Levin professor of History at Yale University. Tim? Professor Snyder, it's really nice of you to make time to be here tonight. Thank you. Of course, there's a lot that's going on that I want to talk to you about, but I wanted to ask you, now that we are this many weeks into it, what you make of the character of the opposition that we are see seeing right now to Trump's presidency?
- [31:35]
Unknown (focus group participant)
I think on the one side, we have too few Democrats who are articulate in describing the world as it actually is unfolding before our eyes, but we have a few who are doing an excellent job. And on the other side, we have creative local opposition all throughout the country, probably more than we see, because unfortunately, we don't have enough local reporters to cover all of this properly. What we're going to see, I think, in months to come, is those two things moving slowly to each other as these creative protests create platforms for the more adventurous and charismatic politicians.
- [32:14]
Timothy Snyder
What impact does opposition like this have, and where do you watch for signs of its impact?
- [32:22]
Unknown (focus group participant)
It's absolutely of the first importance, because when strange things happen and nobody reacts, then everybody normalizes. But if strange things happen and a few people react, or even more than a few people react, then people can say, yeah, you know, maybe I wouldn't protest myself, but this sure is a strange thing that's happening. And then when another strange thing happens, they might actually protest. So getting out there, showing your face, being with other people, being creative, making up slogans and signs, all of that is really important because it arrests people's imagination. It helps themselves stop and think and say, wait, this is, in fact, strange because other people think it's strange. And maybe next time I'll join in.
- [33:04]
Timothy Snyder
One of the things that I have been sort of watching and not knowing what to do with, and I've been wanting to talk to you about it, is this very, very, very strong set of signals and public opinion polling from the American public about Russia, about disfavoring Vladimir Putin, disfavoring Russia under Putin, strongly siding with Ukraine over Russia in the Russia ukra. At so many of these protests, even in small towns and in red districts and allunexpected places all over the country, you're seeing people with Ukraine flags and people making that a central point of the way they're protesting. You saw it in the protest against JD Vance. Go ski in Russia, you traitor. It seems to be really an animating thing for the American people, even though I feel like the punditocracy has been telling us for a long time that Americans don't care about anything beyond our borders. What do you make of that? And what do you think the clash ultimately will be between the American public having such a clear, strong, immutable opinion on that matter and the behavior of President Trump?
- [34:12]
Unknown (focus group participant)
Yeah, I think Ukraine, Russia is an area where, you know, a lot of Americans just show a lot of common sense. People know who invaded whom and people have a sense that invasions are wrong and people know that war crimes are wrong. People know that it's wrong to be tortured, to have children kidnapped, to have local leaders executed, to have all these things happen. People have righteous common sense about these things. And I think Ukraine is resonant for American protesters for a couple of reasons. The first is that it involves people going out and being courageous. It involves people taking a stand for values like freedom. And people think, well, if they can do it, then we can do it. But another thing which is important is that Ukraine is about reality. It's about something which is actually happening. Whereas so much that we're being fed by this administration has to do with unreality, reality, with stuff which is made up with lies, big, little and small. And I think it's refreshing for people to say, well, wait, there are people who are living in reality as far as the disjuncture with popular opinion is concerned. I was thinking about that during your segment and it strikes me that I can't think of any example in history where an American leader has been so entranced for such a long period by any foreigner, let alone a foreign leader who's obviously an extreme right wing dictator carrying out a war of aggression. There is something deeply strange about that, and I think unsustainable for the reason you're putting your finger on. It's very undemocratic. Trump acts as though his only constituents were Musk and Putin and no one else really matters. And I think with time, people are going to realize that, that Trump is acting like those two men are his constituents and no one else really matters.
- [35:52]
Timothy Snyder
Crucial point, and I think that's exactly right. We have seen things in history, in bad points in American history, where we've had leaders, influential people even elected, who have been entranced by foreign dictators. But the idea that, the idea of how they would pursue that is that they would try to persuade Americans to come along with them in that affection. They would try to persuade Americans to also be entranced by that foreign dictator. In this case, that couldn't be further than the truth. It seems to be a personal connection. Timothy Snyder, I knew you'd know. Professor of history at Yale University. Thank you for being with us tonight. I'd love to have you back soon.
- [36:33]
Unknown (focus group participant)
Anytime.
- [36:34]
Timothy Snyder
All right, more news ahead. Stay with us.
- [36:39]
Unknown (advertisement voice)
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- [36:54]
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- [37:25]
Timothy Snyder
MSNBC presents Main Justice. Each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers.
- [37:30]
Unknown (advertisement voice)
Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down.
- [37:33]
Timothy Snyder
The latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.
- [37:37]
Unknown (advertisement voice)
The administration doesn't necessarily want to be.
- [37:39]
Timothy Snyder
Questioned on any of its policy.
- [37:41]
Unknown (advertisement voice)
I think what we are seeing is.
- [37:43]
Timothy Snyder
Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition. Main Justice. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts.
- [37:53]
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- [37:58]
Timothy Snyder
So at the top of last night's show, we talked about a story that appears to be rapidly escalating and getting weirder and weirder each day. Now it concerns the question of whether Donald Trump has now allowed his top campaign donor, Elon Musk, to start using armed force, physical force, against governmental or even non governmental entities that Musk is trying to dismantle The US Institute for Peace was created by Congress during the Reagan administration. Officially, it's an independent nonprofit. It's not officially part of the US Government. Some of Elon Musk's Doge people came to the Institute of Peace on Friday. They had FBI agents with them. For some reason, they were refused entry. But then afterwards, a lawyer for the Institute told the New York Times that over the weekend, quote, the FBI threatened Institute employees over the lack of access to the building. She says the D.C. u.S. Attorney's office got involved. On Sunday night, the chief of the Criminal division at the U.S. attorney's office in D.C. demanded access to the Institute's, quote, books and records. Quote. When the Institute resisted, he threatened a criminal investigation. We've asked the D.C. u.S. Attorney's office for comment. We have not yet heard back. So that was Friday, and then over the weekend. Then yesterday, Monday, Doge people arrived back at the US Institute of Peace, quote, in a black SUV with government plates, escorted by what appeared to be private security, who arrived in separate vehicles and were dressed in street clothing. Again, this institute is not a government agency. It's an independent nonprofit. Even its building is not a federal building. It's owned and operated by this institute. So, I mean, if someone was trying to break into your home or break into your office, what would you do? The Institute did that. They called the cops. They called the police. The D.C. police showed up, and then the D.C. police escorted the DOGE team into the building and kicked out the Institute's staff. What? The D.C. police put out this statement today, saying that yesterday they were contacted by the U.S. attorney's office, who told them that the Doge people were the rightful leaders of the U.S. institute of Peace and that the Institute's staff inside the building were unauthorized and refusing to leave the Institute of Peace. People then called the police to protect their building from DOGE trying to break into it. Instead, the police helped evict them and let Doge in. We have previously talked about Doge invoking the U.S. marshals. Now, apparently, they're using FBI agents and the D.C. u.S. Attorney's office, some private security, maybe. And now the D.C. police, they're bringing all of this armed force to bear on what they're doing, which is arguably illegal. There was one other branch of government on the scene. Last night as all this was going down at the Institute, a member of Congress showed up to try to understand what was happening and do what he could. That member of Congress joins us live here next. So last night, the Doge team, run by President Donald Trump's top campaign donor staged a hostile physical takeover of an independent nonprofit called the US Institute of Peace. The US Institute of Peace is not a government agency. Theirs is not a government building. They told the Doge staffers they could not come in, that they had no authority over them. DOGE staff then physically forced their way in with the help of the FBI and the D.C. police. Congressman Don Beyer of Virginia heard what was happening and went there along with his wife. He later wrote online, quote, I was at the US Institute of Peace tonight to conduct congressional oversight over Doge's break in. USIP is an independent nonprofit entity, and I will work to stop Doge's illegal power grab. Joining us now is Congressman Don Beyer of Virginia. Congressman, I really appreciate you being here to talk about this tonight. Thank you.
- [42:14]
Congressman Don Beyer
Yeah, thank you, Rachel, very much. It was very concerning, and you laid out the case very well.
- [42:20]
Timothy Snyder
What did you see last night when you went?
- [42:23]
Congressman Don Beyer
When we got there, the D.C. police had already escorted all the staff out. The last person out was the president of the usip, George Moose, a longtime US Ambassador. And he had locked himself in his office to protest the illegal firing of 11 of the USIP board members by Donald Trump. And the D.C. police actually picked the lock on his office to get him and take him to the outside. The real challenge is that there's something in the law, the congressional charter for usip, that says a president can replace a board member with board consultation for committing a felony or some gross malfeasance. He didn't consult any board members, and certainly there were no felonies.
- [43:07]
Timothy Snyder
What do you make of the use of all these various law enforcement agencies as part of these takeovers? We saw this with the US Africa Development Foundation. We saw it with some of the very early stuff that Doge did, and we didn't know who they were saying they were going to call on to force their way in. But now it seems like they're invoking the US Marshals, the FBI, and now the DC Police as effectively their muscle as their armed phalanx that will physically force them into places that they may not be legally allowed.
- [43:42]
Congressman Don Beyer
It's very concerning. It's like, what? Where does Doge get any legitimacy, any right to invade an independent nonprofit? 501c3, Rachel, there are 232,501c3 nonprofits in the United States. By this measure, Donald Trump could send the police or the marshals into any one of them and demand to see their books, throw out their people, replace their board members. It's really unprecedented. The poor D.C. police took their orders initially from the acting U.S. attorney, this guy, Ed Martin, who's just a MAGA hatchet man with a lot of personal vendettas. And when they were also called by George Moose and the USIP leadership, they didn't know who to trust. And I guess they looked at the FBI, who said, well, you know, Trump fired the board members, therefore you've got to stick with him. Although that was clearly illegal.
- [44:36]
Timothy Snyder
The takeover and the shutdown of these agencies is being litigated in all sorts of ways in all sorts of places. I imagine it will be by USIP and US Africa Development Foundation. That one's already in court, and all these other agencies. But this issue of what law enforcement is doing, turning up with guns and saying, we're taking you out of here physically, we're picking the lock, we're getting you out, and we're doing it on behalf of doge. That seems like an area for potential litigation. It also seems like an area for law enforcement oversight, congressional oversight, including of the D.C. police, the FBI, the Marshal Service, and anybody else who they're using in this capacity. Do you see any appetite for that among your colleagues on Capitol Hill?
- [45:17]
Congressman Don Beyer
Very much so. I think our busiest committee on Capitol Hill will be the Oversight Committee, led by my colleague Gerry Connolly and Jamie Raskin, aoc Others will be deeply involved in it because, you know, we don't have a lot of tools. We're in a minority, but we have to use every tool that we have. And the oversight, the ability to investigate and then get the word out to the American people is really, really important.
- [45:41]
Timothy Snyder
Yeah. And if. And if somebody's calling the cops in D.C. for what is effectively a burglary or an armed assault, they should expect that the cops respond to it, not on behalf of one political faction or another, but on behalf. On behalf of potential victim of crime.
- [45:58]
Congressman Don Beyer
I very much hope that in any other place than Washington, D.C. i'm hoping that the police would be much more independent in D.C. they're going to look first at the U.S. attorney, sadly, and that's the wrong person in this case.
- [46:09]
Timothy Snyder
Congressman Dunbar, Democrat of Virginia. Sir, thank you very much for your time tonight. And thank you for going there last night. Having your eyes on it is a really important part of this. Thank you.
- [46:17]
Congressman Don Beyer
I just wish I'd been able to make a difference.
- [46:20]
Timothy Snyder
Well, you might yet. I'll be right back, sir. I have gone over my allotted time. I apologize. I will see you again tomorrow and every night this week at 9. Pm Eastern Auto Insurance can all seem.
- [46:37]
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- [46:48]
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