← The Rachel Maddow Show
The Rachel Maddow Show
Trump opposition finds its footing, from streets to courts to Congress
00:46:42
Rachel Maddow looks at the many ways Americans are obstructing Donald Trump's goal of dismantling the Department of Education, from street protests to lawsuits to acts of defiance by congressional Democrats, and notes that the response to the threat to the Department of Education is emblematic of the broader national opposition to Trump's agenda.
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- [00:00]
Rachel Maddow
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- [00:25]
Alex Wagner
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
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Eric Lipton
This is gonna be a really good show. I'm glad you're here tonight. Thanks for being here. So this was Washington D.C. today ahead of the big snowstorm that is rolling into Washington right now. Tonight. That is a snowstorm big enough that it's already canceled some of the action we thought we were going to be watching late into the wee hours tonight on Capitol Hill. But ahead of that storm, this was Washington today. Tons of people in the streets. People turned out just outside the US Capitol, Upper Senate park to protest, to support the civil service, support the people who work for the government, to protest our government being dismantled by President Trump and of course his top campaign donor. This administration maintains that they're going to boost efficiency, but they are doing the most inefficient things imaginable. And I'm not just saying that. Quite literally the most inefficient thing you could possibly do is take American taxpayer dollars and pay people not to work.
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William Barber
They are afraid of you. Trump and Musk and the oligarchs they work for. They are scared. Scared of your power. But they are betting that you will be afraid of them. So afraid that you will accept a buyout or comply in advance with their assertion of absolute power. But we know a president is not a king unless we bow. A dictator is not a dictator unless we bow our knees. Your knees are not made for bowing to power, drunk neo fascists. We bow only to God, to everybody else. We stand man and speak truth to power. We stand tall when they attack workers. We stand tall because whenever wannabe dictators have tried to take over throughout history, they always start with workers. Yeah, hear me now. They always start with government workers who are committed to a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. And they know as long as workers stay together and fight haters.
- [03:05]
Eric Lipton
Reverend William Barber, civil rights leader. Also speaking there, Kenny Roberson, the national vice president of the American Federation of Government Employees. But this is a big protest Today in Washington, D.C. in support of federal civil servants, the people who work in the US Government, a support for them and also a protest in defiance of what we're seeing from the Trump administration to try to effectively destroy as much as they can of the federal government. This follows an equally large and energetic protest Yesterday also in D.C. this one outside the headquarters of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, one of the agencies that Trump is trying to just unilaterally shut down, even though that legally does not appear to be within his power. This protest yesterday at the CFPB noted, among other things, people at that protest noted that this agency, for example, is handling hundreds of consumer complaints about Tesla, the car company owned by Elon Musk. This is an agency that would be overseeing the new thing. Elon Musk just announced about his social media company, which used to be called Twitter. He wants you now to be able to use that social media platform not just for all your needs for posting about weird Nazi race science and threats against reporters or whatever. He now also wants you to be able to use that social media platform as the place where you do all your banking and keep all your money. Because, yeah, trust him. What could possibly go wrong? He announced that just weeks ago, before he went to war against the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which is the government agency that would be overseeing and regulating that genius use Twitter as a payment service idea, which Musk just announced. Now he's announced that he's killed that agency himself, effectively unilaterally, thanks to the power vested in him as the president's top campaign donor. That's not how the law works. He doesn't get a unilateral say in what government agencies we have in America. And these people. Door stopping the CFPB's headquarters yesterday in Washington, including lots of elected officials and lots of people who weren't elected officials. That was all part of telling him that he does not necessarily get his way here. You see some of the signs here? Hands off our cfpb. Elon is stealing your data. Thanks, federal workers. Stay strong. CFPB protects Americans. This is a good one. Dogs against Doge. Look at the eyes on that one. Oh, who's a good dog against Doge? That was Washington yesterday and today outside of Washington. Check this out. This was West Virginia Today, Parkersburg, West Virginia. This is in the northwest part of the states, right near the Ohio state line. And a few days ago on Friday, ProPublica reported that this little city in West Virginia was about to be the next target of Elon Musk's flying wedge of government saboteurs. Elon Musk's little group has been so eager to get their hands on the sensitive Treasury U.S. treasury payment system, which sends out, you know, your Social Security check, your Veterans benefits, secret payments from our intelligence agencies to their secret assets and sources abroad. They were so eager to get their hands on that sensitive U.S. treasury payment system. But once they did that, they realized there was another really sensitive payment system inside the Treasury Department, and it's called cars, C A R S, the Central Accounting Reporting System system. It's based at the Bureau of Fiscal service inside the U.S. treasury, and they have their offices in Parkersburg, West Virginia. And ProPublica just reported a few days ago, Friday that Trump was sending Musk's team physically out to Parkersburg, West Virginia, to go mess with that system, too. And so over the weekend, West Virginia organized the ACLU of West Virginia, the Democratic Party of West Virginia, the Democratic Party of Wood county, which is where Parkersburg is. People who work at that Treasury Department office there, people who know people who work at that Treasury Department office there, they all sounded the alarm. They decided to all get together. And then today was the day, the day those Doge guys were supposed to arrive in this little community in rural West Virginia. But look, there were like, hundreds of people who turned out to say no. People who turned out with signs telling them and bullhorns telling them, back off and not here. You're not doing it here. Quoting Woody Guthrie there. All you fascists bound to lose and defend our public workers and hands off the Treasury. No kings in America. Doge is the real steel. Parkersburg, West Virginia. Everybody in the snow and the freezing rain and the wind today, West Virginia. We're also starting to see an upsurge of this kind of thing. You see the location here, the setting here. We're starting to see an upsurge in protests targeting Tesla dealerships, Tesla charging stations, just as sort of the corporate representation of Elon Musk since he owns Tesla. We talked last week about a seemingly impromptu protest at Tesla charging stations in the bitter cold up in Waterville, Maine. Well, now look, they're starting to happen all over at a Tesla dealership showroom thing in Manhattan. Sort of a big crowd turned out there with very good signage. Stop Musk's coup. Elon Musk is not my president. This is a coup. Take away the keys from Elon. Don't buy swastikars. Also look in California, in San Luis Obispo, at a Tesla dealership there, more of the same. Stop the coup. Stop Musk. Save our democracy. Follow the rule of law. This is a pretty good one. Bad Doge. I've been wondering if we should call. I mean, why do we say Doge, right? Like, why are we playing along with the joke and their framing of it? Like there's just as much of a case that we should be calling it doggy instead of Doge? I don't know. That's a pretty compelling case. Bad Doge. Another big protest at a Tesla site, this one in Ohio, in Columbus. There's a whole bunch of people there. O h I o. Elon Musk has got to go. O h I O. Elon Musk has got to go. The Ohio chant is useful for any occasion and any cause in Ohio. It works here. O h I O. Elon Musk has got to go. You can see the signs in Columbus as people turned out to protest against Elon Musk and his role in the Trump administration. Delete Musk. Boycott plutocracy. This one, just the word Elon with a big F in front of it. That's pretty good. Elon hands off private data, health info and tax money. That's another one. Not for nothing, but I will tell you, Forbes tonight reports that Elon Musk's personal wealth has dropped $42 billion this month. Really? As shares of Tesla have started to fall off a cliff. This follows earlier reporting that you might have heard here on the show about how Tesla sales all over the world, especially in Europe, are really dropping down by a lot. Down like 40, 50, close to 60%. Tesla sales down by that much in the most important European markets. Tesla's stock price in February alone is down 19% with one prominent analyst warning yesterday, quote, the negative downturn in consumers perception of Elon Musk could result in a headwind to sales for Tesla. Whereupon Tesla stock dropped 3% in one day alone yesterday. And you know, this is interesting in terms of thinking about the sort of practical and political import of that. Reporters at the Bulwark got their hands on a bunch of letters sent by Republican members of Congress to their constituents about Elon Musk. Now, why are Republican members of Congress writing to their constituents about Elon Musk? It's because their constituents have been. Have been complaining to their Republican members of Congress about Elon Musk telling them this. This Musk business is sick and wrong. And what are you going to do about it? We can tell that is the tone of the communication about Elon Musk to the offices of Republican senators and members of Congress. We can tell that because of what we now see in these letters published by the bulwark of Republican members of Congress, what they are saying back to their constituent in their own letters. Right. Letters that they probably do not want writt read out loud on national news. So let's do it right. Okay. Senator John Curtis, Republican from Utah. Dear Redacted thank you for reaching out to share your thoughts on the Department of Government Efficiency and Elon Musk's role in the new administration. It is important that DOGE operates with appropriate oversight to maintain transparency, prevent conflicts of interest and ensure its work remains focused on serving the American people. That's what Senator John Curtis, Republican of Utah is telling his constituents. Well, is he actually working to ensure that in the Senate? Is he working to ensure they're maintaining transparency and preventing conflicts of interest? What are you doing about that, Senator? You're telling your constituents that's what you're working on. What are you actually doing? Are you willing to do it out loud to Elon Musk's face or just privately to a constituent and then you're not actually going to do it? Congressman Mike Flood, Republican of Nebraska. Here's another. Thank you for reaching out to my office regarding Mr. Elon Musk's efforts in the Department of Government Efficiency. Please know you're not the only one who has expressed concern and I want you to know I hear you. The Treasury Secretary told me to my face that Mr. Musk absolutely does not have full access to the federal payment system. Although this process is stressful, I want you to know that I take my responsibility under the Constitution very seriously. Article 1 of our US Constitution gives members of Congress the power of the purse to decide and direct spending following a successfully passed budget signed by the President. I intend to protect Nebraskans, says Congressman Mike Flood. I intend to protect Nebraskans and appreciate the fact that you feel the same. He assures his constituent that he's writing to quote, Secretary Bassett has confirmed to me that Mr. Musk has read only access to the data containing the information about where US Government payments have been made. Congressman Mike Flood of Nebraska might want to check with the most recent court filing in the case that's trying to stop Musk from what he's doing at the treasury because in the government's filings in that case today, they admit it isn't read only access. It's full access. It's read and write access. And oops, guess they told you wrong. You gonna make that up to your constituent who you calmly assured that everything was fine cause you got told to your face it was read only access. You gonna correct that? Here too is Congressman Daniel Webster, Republican of Florida, assuring his constituents along the same lines. Quote, my staff reached out to the to clarify the work Musk and the engineers on the DOGE task force are doing. Members of the DOGE team are being vetted. Oh, are they? Are they? Are they? Members of the DOGE team are being vetted to ensure qualifications are met and then monitored by treasury officials throughout their work. Treasury Secretary Scott Besant granted the DOGE team access to the Treasury's payment system in a read only capacity. Did he though, Congressman? You're banking on that. You're telling this to your constituents. Congressman Daniel Webster. But here is the government's filing in the treasury case today, quote, on the morning of February 6th. So Thursday, it was discovered that Mr. Ellez's database access to the treasury payment system had been configured with read write permissions. That's not read only. It's read write. It's the exact thing you've been telling your constituents they're not doing. Turns out they're doing it all. These members of Congress are assuring, they're apparently quite angry, quite insistent constituents, that none of that happened. Definitely didn't happen. We got assurances it happened. Here's Republican Senator Deb Fisher writing to her constituents in Nebraska. Thank you for sharing your concerns with me. I understand that the Treasury Department's payment system contains extremely sensitive and confidential data. It is critical for the Treasury Department to maintain its strict procedures to ensure that this data is protected. And what does Senator Fisher think are those strict procedures? Well, as she assures her constituent, quote, they have access to read only data from the department's payment system. But that's not true at the government's own admission. And Senator Deb Fisher is not only telling her constituents, hey, calm down here, calm down here. It's read only. She's assuring her constituents that she is on this. She is all over it. Quote, please be assured I will continue to closely monitor this situation in the days and weeks ahead. Will you? I don't know how closely Senator Deb Fischer is monitoring it, but what she's telling her constituents is happening to reassure them, to talk them down, tell them stop freaking out, is not actually what's happening. Are you going to send follow up letters? Are you going to be closely monitoring this situation, ensuring that the Treasury Department maintains its strict procedures because of this extremely sensitive and confidential data that you understand the importance of protecting? Even if you don't understand that maybe you shouldn't believe them when they give you false assurances about what they're doing with it. Honestly, the most important thing here in this news might be that all these Republican senators and all these Republican members of Congress right now feel compelled to write these letters to come up with some kind of explanation to their constituents for what Trump is doing. And they feel compelled to do that because their constituents are inundating them with complaints and concerns about it. Because that's what's happening right now in the United States of America. The people are not having it. This weekend, 1500 people turned out for a single protest, Trump and Musk meeting at a church in downtown Santa Barbara. The organizers figured they had plenty of space. They knew they could fit 450 people inside. They thought that would be plenty. Well, they filled up the 450 seats in the church and then another thousand plus people showed up and filled the church courtyard. And then they filled the surrounding sidewalks. In Columbus, Ohio, where I just showed you those images from the big protest at the Tesla dealer in Columbus, Ohio, they too had what they thought was going to be a normal, indivisible meeting this weekend. They filled the church that they had booked for that meeting wall to wall and then they stuffed the overflow as well. Columbus stuff's happening and the pushback is real and it is in places you might not expect it. And as always, it is getting results. Can't win if you don't play. And sometimes the pushback gets big results, sometimes it gets small results, but it always gets something. Today, for example, the National Park Service has caved. They have had to partially pull back on their Trump hiring freeze. Democratic senators and Democratic Democratic members of Congress screamed bloody murder about the fact that the Park Service having this hiring freeze meant, among other things, that the country's national parks were not going to be able to open this summer because the hiring freeze meant that the Park Service wasn't going to be able to hire the thousands and thousands and thousands of seasonal workers they have to hire every year in order to fricking run the parks. Oops. Now, this is only a partial rollback of that hiring freeze for the national parks, but it is a rollback and it is in response to the hue and cry and people screaming bloody murder about it today. I should Mention was also another totally solid day in terms of Trump being stopped and tripped up in the courts. Now, I mentioned this treasury case where we now have in black and white, the Trump administration admitting in print that, yeah, they did give full read and write access to Elon Musk's little band of teen marauders when they accessed the most sensitive major payment system in the whole U.S. government at the U.S. treasury. Their treasury payment system access has now been blocked by a federal court twice. The Trump administration, importantly, has appealed that. And I can tell you tonight, they have lost that appeal. Again, that's on access to the treasury payment system. Today, a federal court also ordered the Trump administration to restore scientific data they took down off of websites at the CDC and the fda. Also on the resign or else emails that they've been sending threatening all federal employees. Last night at midnight was supposed to be the new deadline for the Trump administration to force all these or threaten all these federal employees into resigning. That deadline was supposed to be last night. There's a reason that deadline, like Friday's deadline, came and went. It's because the judge hearing that case has blocked that resign or else gambit again. Now, we reported here last night that the head of the Office of Special Counsel, not the one at the Justice Department, but the one that oversees whistleblower laws and protections in the executive branch, that that official, the head of the Office of Special Counsel, had been fired by Trump, but the guy who was fired was challenging it in court. Well, today that firing has been blocked in court thanks to a federal judge. Also, the rip it down to the studs cuts to NIH medical and scientific research funding, which I should note is set by law. It's not just a president's idea that he can change when he wakes up on the wrong side of the bed. Those cuts have now been blocked twice by federal courts. How about usaid? The attempt to illegally shut down usaid. As if again, Trump can just do that with a whim, right? Let alone his top campaign contributor can do that with a whim. The effort to shut down USAID has now been blocked by the federal courts. And now today, a second lawsuit has been filed in federal court to force them to pay the USAID contractors who they have been refusing to to pay. How about that overall federal funding halt that's been blocked by the courts as well. We've been reporting that the courts then had to rule against the Trump administration again after the Trump administration chose to defy the first order in that case. Well, now a federal appeals court has upheld those lower courts and told the Trump administration in no uncertain terms they must restore that funding. They are not allowed to freeze that funding, and they are not allowed to defy the courts when the courts tell them they can't do it. And you know, again, thinking practically, because symbolic victories, you know, matter, symbols matter, but practical victories are better. And in terms of thinking about how all these things work together, just let's take a little bit of a case study. The Department of Education, you might remember in terms of protests in Washington, you might remember last week, very dramatic day at the headquarters of the Department of Education. Democratic members of Congress and senators raced down to the Department of Education to stop the Trump administration's plans to try to potentially close it down on the fly to get into all its sensitive computer systems. Weird, supposedly, like self proclaimed security guards not wearing uniforms physically blocked members of Congress from getting in there. That was last week. Democratic members of Congress are now threatening that if Republicans go ahead with plans to try to unilaterally and illegally shut down the Education Department, Democrats in Congress will refuse to help Republicans do absolutely anything in Congress. And that might sound like a sort of wan threat, that might sound like no big deal, but Republicans have such a tiny majority in the House, they need Democratic help to do pretty much anything. And yes, that includes needing Democratic votes, undoubtedly to keep the government open and running at all past this time next month. If Democrats in the Senate are gonna say no unanimous consent, no yes votes on any nominees, we're gonna make you stay up all night and hold the floor for all these things. We're gonna make everything go as slow as possible. We are gonna grind this thing to a halt. They're using the powers of the Senate to do that. Members of the House, Democrats in the House don't have the same toolkit that Republican, excuse me, they don't have the same toolkit that Democrats have in the Senate, but they do have a toolkit. And with a margin as slim as it is in the House, with Republicans having such a tiny majority, they know they can't do anything without at least a few Democratic votes. Democrats are now saying, you want to shut down the Democrat, you want to shut down the Department of Education, you're not going to get any Democratic votes or any Democratic help for anything. We're going to bring this place to a halt. And you know, what does that mean at the Department of Education, right? Musk and his random team of JV hackers started to announce the cancellation of contracts at the Department of Education today. On what authority Democratic members of Congress soundedly alarmed at the press that this was happening today. While that was happening today, a federal judge heard the lawsuit that will try to kick Doge and his Musk minions out of the Department of Education the way the courts have told them to get out of all of these other agencies. And so you've got direct action. You've got legislation, threats, effectively. You've got threats in terms of the political system on Capitol Hill. You've got the press being alerted to what's going on. You've got Democrats doing everything they can, including no business as usual, to try to stop it. And no, I don't know if that will work to save the Department of Education, as now this lawsuit tries to stop Trump and Musk from what they're doing. But I do know that they've got public opinion against them on this, too, right? What Trump and Musk are trying to do to the Education Department, they don't have the people with them on this. A huge majority of voters in this country, more than 60% of all registered voters in this country, want the Department of Education to not be eliminated. And so I know that the public is going to fight them on this. I know Democrats are fighting like heck for it. I know that the courts are standing up against what they're doing here. And I know that people are in the streets in Washington and all over the country, even in places you wouldn't expect, not just for protests, but turning out in huge numbers for organizing meetings, to organize everything they can to stop what Trump is doing. And no, I do not know if it will work, but I do know that if you don't do it, they'll take all the ground they can. And I do know that if they are going to get stopped, it's going to take everything all at once. It's going to take public opinion. It's going to take Democrats being smart. It's going to take organizing in the streets. It's going to take organizing in clever and unexpected ways. It's going to take people standing up and saying, no, we're not doing this. And I do know that from sea to shining sea, Americans are looking like they're willing to do that, like they're willing to do what it takes to say no. Some of what is motivating this upsurge and this anger and this rejection of what they're doing, specifically related to Elon Musk, broke today in an important story in the New York Times. And that's what we're going to cover here next. Stay with us.
- [28:39]
Rachel Maddow
This podcast is supported by Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Planned Parenthood Federation of America exists so all people can get access to the sexual and reproductive care and education they need. Planned Parenthood organizations advocate for health equity and policies that allow people the freedom to control their own bodies, lives and futures. More than 2 million patients a year rely on Planned Parenthood Health center services like STI testing and treatment, birth control, gender affirming care, abortion, cancer screenings and more. Reproductive health care and rights are under attack from public officials who are out of step with the will of the vast majority of Americans. The constitutional right to abortion has been stolen and politicians in 47 states have introduced bills that would block people from getting the sexual and reproductive care they need. Planned Parenthood knows that equitable access to health care, including safe, legal abortion, is a human right. Right now, Planned Parenthood needs your help to protect access to healthcare. Donate today by visiting plannedparenthood.org protect it's.
- [29:42]
Alex Wagner
President Trump's first 100 days and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it from the front lines.
- [29:49]
Rachel Maddow
What issue matters to you the most?
- [29:51]
Alex Wagner
Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the President's policies and promises.
- [29:57]
Eric Lipton
Do you think now that he's pardoned.
- [29:59]
Alexander Vindman
Everybody he can count on this group of people again?
- [30:01]
Alex Wagner
Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video from your favorite shows.
- [30:22]
Eric Lipton
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [30:27]
Alex Wagner
Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc daily@msnbc.com.
- [30:44]
Eric Lipton
So last night we talked about sort of worryingly long list of actions the new administration has taken that just happened to benefit the President's top campaign donor. Everything from cutting the competition for Elon Musk's EV charging stations to firing investigators who were looking into his refusal to reveal his contacts with foreign governments. Well today the New York Times is out with new reporting that makes that list a whole lot longer and may help explain even more of some of the inexplicable firings and shutdowns that the administration seems to have prioritized in these first three weeks that They've been in power. For instance, we've talked here on the show about how Trump has hamstrung agencies that deal with workers rights, including the National Labor Relations Board and the Equal Opportunity Employment Commission. Why did he go after those agencies? Well, he fired top officials at those agencies and didn't replace them. That makes it impossible for those agencies to do their job. Why did he do that? Why? Do we understand why that got a priority action from this administration? Well, I don't know, but the Times reports today that those agencies are handling two dozen workers rights investigations and at least one big lawsuit alleging racial harassment at Elon Musk's companies. Ah. In similar fashion, Trump has also fired FEC Commissioner Ellen Weintraub. Federal Elections Commission effectively shuts down the fec, which polices campaign finance violations. May be helpful to know that that's the same FEC that was overseeing complaints from this last election about Elon Musk. G people million dollar checks to, quote, encourage voter registration, a lottery that he held, even though it is illegal to pay people to register to vote. Last week we brought you the story of Phyllis Fong, the inspector general for the Department of Agriculture. She was fired by Donald Trump. You might remember her story. She, after she was fired, nevertheless showed up to work the next day anyway, saying, my firing was illegal and so I'm going to work. They marched her out of the office, apparently. Well, it turns out in 2022, Phyllis Fong, quote, opened an investigation into Elon Musk's brain implant startup company, Neuralink, stemming from allegations that Musk's company had, quote, mistreated dozens of test monkeys, mistreatment that Elon Musk himself denies. Why was it so important to fire the inspector general of USDA as one of your first actions? Well, I don't know, but that's what she was doing to bother Elon Musk. Trump has also fired the head of the Office of Government Ethics. That is the agency tasked with investigating right now whether or not the Doge project is itself a conflict of interest for Elon Musk. Again, we don't know what is motivating or setting the priority list for this new administration in its first three weeks. But there is a lot of overlap between the administration has done and what you might imagine is a wish list for the president's top campaign donor who's been allowed to essentially have his way with the federal government, including a lot of elements of the federal government that were complicating his business life or cramping his style. Joining us now is Eric Lipton, investigative reporter at the New York Times, lead byline on that investigation into Elon Musk's companies and their interactions with these agencies that have been hamstrung and attacked by the administration. Mr. Lipton, I appreciate you being here.
- [34:19]
Jon Favreau
Thanks for having me.
- [34:21]
Eric Lipton
So I spotlighted some of the things that you reported today in the Times. Let me ask if I misconstrued any of those or if there are any other examples that you turned up that you feel like our audience should know about.
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Jon Favreau
What we did was we sort of examined the breadth of Elon Musk operations across the federal government. And there are, you know, there are so many pending investigations, lawsuits, inquiries, and we looked at how many of them had been disrupted, and we were quite surprised at how many cases we saw where, you know, we don't know. We never saw any evidence of Musk explicitly reaching in and, you know, using his cloud or powers to stop any particular investigation. But what we saw was that again and again, agencies that are targeting his companies have now had significant disruptions. The inspector generals, the inspectors, the quorums are gone. They can't therefore process any potential new lawsuits or settlements. And, you know, it just shows you how never before have we had a situation where Someone has basically $13 billion worth of federal contracts over the last five years, 3.8 billion just in 2024, and at the same time has dozens of ongoing investigations that that same person would be given, given such incredible clout over the federal government. And that is a conflict of interest. And now we're seeing the implications of that, where there are more than dozens of investigations that have been potentially disrupted because of the broad disruption that's happening in the federal government. And that's something that we really felt we needed to drill down on and understand and identify as many cases as possible where these disruptions have occurred. And that's what we published in today's paper.
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Eric Lipton
Yeah, and I mean, I know I'm just sort of cheerleading for your reporting here, but the examples that you found and that you document are really blunt. I mean, you say that you didn't find examples of him reaching in and directing the end of an investigation, but like take, for example, him wanting to expand Twitter X so that it also involves a payment system that is something that would be regulated by the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, by the cpfb. He announces that our cfpb, he announces that a few weeks ago, then gets handed control of a big portion of the US Government and then announces CFPB rip, in effect claiming credit for personally Killing that agency, which takes the agency off the board as a potential regulator for this thing he has just announced he wants to do with his business. I mean, I know that the, I know that some of, there's a lot of acronyms here, and I know that financial conflicts of interest sound like a sort of esoteric thing, but this is like a cartoon Western level of cartoon Western explication in terms of the simplicity of how much his actions here have benefited his own business interests. I just feel like it's very, very, very clear.
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Jon Favreau
Yeah, I really, I mean, I've been a reporter for three decades, more than three decades. I've never seen anything like this. I've never seen such a blatant conflict of interest. He is one of the largest contractors for the federal government. Again, $15 billion in contracts just in the last decade. And the notion that an individual who could be running or founding or operating so many companies that have so many contracts with the federal government and at the same time deciding what the budgets of the federal agency should be or what regulatory powers they should have and even what investigative and enforcement powers they should have. And I mean, the thing is that even before the election, Musk was very clear that he had intense frustration with the Federal Aviation Administration, with the securities and Exchange Commission. He wanted the FAA administrator fired. He called the SEC political and, you know, he was very pointed in the Department of Interior. He was very frustrated with. He blamed all of these agencies for, you know, we're never going to get humans to Mars at this pace. And it was very clear that he wanted to have, you know, the ability to, you know, to clash with these regulators and to rein them in. And now he has that power. And now these same agencies are having their powers curtailed. Now, again, we don't have evidence that he has, has directly reached in, but there is a correlation that needed to be called out, and we've now called it out.
- [39:04]
Eric Lipton
Eric Lipton, investigative reporter for the New York Times, thank you for your reporting on this. Thanks for your clarity and for making time tonight to help us understand it. Eric, I appreciate it.
- [39:13]
Jon Favreau
Thank you.
- [39:15]
Eric Lipton
It really is like, you know, if you were a bank robber and you also had the power to zero out the budget of the police department that was otherwise going to arrest you for robbing the bank. That's what this is. It's not complicated. This is our life. We'll be right back.
- [39:36]
Alex Wagner
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free Listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC Original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Get the all new CNBC Sport Newsletter. Alex Sherman brings you exclusive interviews and the biggest news impacting the world of sports, business and media, all straight to your inbox. Sign up for free@cnbc.com sportnewsletter it might.
- [40:21]
Pete Hegseth
Be enticing to try and sleep through the next four years, but if you're wondering how to survive a second Trump term while staying fully conscious, Pod Save America is here to help you process what's happening now and what comes next. I'm Jon Favreau and Tommy Vitor, Jon Lovett and Dan Pfeiffer, and I wade hip deep into the week's political news and fish out some political analysis you can trust. Yes, Tommy's shoes get ruined. Yes, he'll do it again tomorrow because the endeavor is worth it and so is your sanity. Tune in to Pod Save America wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.
- [40:54]
Eric Lipton
In Stuttgart, Germany today, former Fox News weekend host Pete Hegseth arrived at U.S. european Command headquarters for his first overseas trip as defense secretary. There he was greeted by US Military families loudly booing him. About two dozen people who live at the base gather to protest Pete Hegseth and his new policies, including his crusade against racial diversity and his scapegoating transgender people and kicking them out of the military. Now, protests by military families against a defense secretary are extremely rare in any circumstances, but it's particularly impressive to attract a booing crowd of military families when you're not even three weeks into the job. Well done. Another member of the Trump administration is making his first trip abroad right now. That's J.D. vance, the Vice president. He was in Paris today. He will next head to Munich, where more than 200,000 people turned out this weekend, one of the largest crowds Munich has ever seen, all protesting against that country's far right Nationalist Party, the AfD, what Germans consider to be the inheritor of the Nazi party's legacy in Germany, which nevertheless counts Donald Trump, J.D. vance and Elon Musk among its biggest fans and promoters. JD Vance will attend the Munich Security Conference. He'll meet there with NATO allies and possibly with Ukraine's president. On Ukraine there was reporting last week that we were going to get a big announcement in Munich this week. President Trump has a special representative for Russia and Ukraine Keith Kellogg. Keith Kelly was expected to present Trump's big plan at the Munich Security Conference. Trump's big plan to end the war in Ukraine. This big peace plan from Trump reportedly involves letting Russia win, letting Russia keep all the territory it has seized during its three year long invasion. And yeah, sure, that's one way to end the war. But now, despite that reporting last week that he was going to make the big announcement in Munich this week, Keith Kellogg says he's now not going to now not presenting anything at the Munich Security Conference. Maybe he'll present something in coming weeks, you know, we'll see how it goes. But he's definitely not going to say anything in Munich. I don't know what happened there. Maybe somebody got Keith Kellogg to Google the word Munich. And what happens when you go there to announce that you've reached a deal for peace in our time because you've found a way to appease the fascistic and aggressive country that's invaded its neighbors? They promise they won't do anymore. Maybe he googled Munich. I don't know who can say, but have fun while you're there. Vice President JD Vance Try not to let the hundreds of thousands of Germans protesting your right wing friends get you down. Joining us now is Alexander Vindman. He's a retired United States army lieutenant colonel. He served on the National Security Council during the administration. He was fired for testifying about Trump's conduct involving Ukraine, which led to his first impeachment. He is now the author of a forthcoming book called the Folly of How the West Deceived Itself about Russia and Betrayed Ukraine. Colonel Vindman, I'm really looking forward to the launch of this book. Thank you for getting me an advance copy of it and thank you for being here with us tonight. I appreciate your time.
- [44:22]
Alexander Vindman
Thank you.
- [44:23]
Eric Lipton
Let me ask you.
- [44:24]
Alexander Vindman
Looking forward to the conversation.
- [44:25]
Eric Lipton
Yeah. Thank you. Let me ask you about President Trump today announcing that Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant is going to go to is going to Ukraine and he's going to discuss pathways to end the war. Vice President Vance may also be meeting with President Zelensky. We did have this reporting that Keith Kellogg was going to announce essentially that the US Plan is to let Russia win the war and keep all the territory that it has taken in this invasion. What are you expecting from the Trump administration on Ukraine?
- [44:56]
Alexander Vindman
Not much, frankly. I think they came in there with lots of slogans about ending the war. Frank, it was supposed to end before President Trump was inaugurated. It didn't end on day one. It's not going to end in the next months, even if the US Withdraws all support. By the way, it's putting significant pressure on Ukraine right now and starting to ease the pressure up on Russia, or at least telegraphing it well, that is not a means to end the war. There is no prospect that Ukraine will throw its hands up in the air and give up its territory, give up its sovereignty. The Europeans are there to back them up. The Ukrainians believe that they have the wherewithal to fight on for some time. And this narrative that the Russians are going to take all of Ukraine is just a false narrative. The Russians are under significant pressure. Their economy is brittle. Their military is taking massive losses. It's a pipe dream. And this idea that Keith Kellogg, J.D. vance or Marco Rubio are going to come up with a plan that caters to Russia is just a mistake. It's exactly what we did wrong. It's exactly what I highlight in my book across six administrations catering to Russia instead of hardening our friends and allies like Ukraine.
- [46:09]
Eric Lipton
As hard pressed as Ukraine is right now, three years into this war, defending its own territory from an aggressive, much larger neighbor that invaded them unprovoked and is taking its territory. Donald Trump today told, or in recent days, has just told Fox News that he has an additional way that he wants to press Ukraine. He wants them to hand over a half trillion dollars worth of rare earth minerals. And if they don't, the US Will cut off all support. You, of course, famously have witnessed Trump in transactional mode firsthand when it comes to Ukraine. What's your reaction to that news?
- [46:47]
Alexander Vindman
This is maximum transactionalism. This is trying to get a deal out of every engagement without understanding the consequences of catering to Russia, of throwing Ukraine under the bus. This is actually not anything new. It's in certain ways quite similar to Greenland. We highlighted for Trump back in my tenure at the White House that the Chinese control the lion's share of rare earths. And Greenland was identified as a place that had rare earths. And therefore he seized on this idea of buying Greenland in much the same way I raised the same issue about Ukraine having $37 trillion worth of rare earths. The problem with this idea is that Bassett, the Treasury Secretary, is going there to shake down Ukraine for $500 billion to somehow recoup the costs of the aid that the US has provided. By the way, it's been closer to $100 billion and almost all of that's been spent in the US on the US defense industrial complex. So I think it's a non Starter. On the other hand, there is potentially something that does cater to Trump's transactionalism is a kind of a reformatting of America first that puts American security first. And in that manner, you could see that we double down on NATO, we double down on Ukraine and ending Russian aggression. And maybe there's a way to build economic partnership partnerships where we do tap Ukraine as a, as a partner with massive amounts of rare earths that could actually mutually beneficially supply us, build its economy. That kind of deal, maybe that kind of deal that also somehow compensates for security systems can maybe appeal to all parties here. This is a needs, must situation. Ukraine needs the resources either from the US or from Europe.
- [48:38]
Eric Lipton
Europe.
- [48:39]
Alexander Vindman
And if that's the kind of deal that they strike, that's, that may be reasonable. But shaking Ukraine down, much like in that first impeachment, is a non starter. The Ukrainians are not going to give in. And this is just not the way the world works.
- [48:53]
Eric Lipton
Yeah. And it's not the way an allyship is supposed to work either. You can do mutually beneficial deals and partnerships of the kinds that you're describing, but extortion is something else. Extortion and threats. Colonel Alexander Vincent, thank you. The book is called the Folly of Realism. It comes out in two weeks. I hope your publisher is sending you all over the country to talk about this with live audiences. You're a voice that we need back in the country right now. We need your example, sir. And I'm happy to have you here tonight ahead of this launch.
- [49:20]
Alexander Vindman
Thank you, Richard.
- [49:21]
Eric Lipton
Thank you. We'll be right back. As I mentioned at the top of the show, there's a big snowstorm rolling into Washington, D.C. tonight, a big enough deal that it has changed the political calendar in terms of what we are expecting out of Capitol Hill tonight and tomorrow because of this snowstorm, the Senate has pushed its final vote on the nomination of Tulsi Gabbard to be the Director of National Intelligence. Not to be an intern at the Office of National Intelligence. Not to be a clerk or a junior trainee or somebody who just like, works by the front door. No, she's actually nominated to be the Director of National Intelligence in America. Yeah. The vote was supposed to happen late tonight, just after midnight. It's now scheduled for 11am tomorrow morning, provided God doesn't strike us all dead for even just considering this. Right after Gabbard's vote tomorrow, the Senate is expected to hold a procedural vote to advance the nomination of this guy to be the Secretary of Health and Human Services. A man who says Wi Fi gives you, quote, leaky brain. This new schedule would set a final confirmation vote on Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. For Thursday morning around 7am you can watch coverage of both right here on MSNBC. I'll be right back. I told you this was gonna be a good show. Admit it. Admit it. It was all right. I'll see you again tomorrow, every night this week at 9pm Eastern.
- [50:56]
Alex Wagner
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. And all MSNBC original Podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Felshey Band, Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.