Trump suffers frequent failures as Americans push back at every turn

Summary

The Rachel Maddow Show – “Trump suffers frequent failures as Americans push back at every turn”

Date: December 9, 2025
Host: Rachel Maddow (Matt Taibbi as primary guest host)
Notable Guests: Zoran Mamdani (NYC Mayor-Elect), Dr. Richard Besser (former CDC Director), Joshua Aaron (Ice Block app developer)

---

Episode Overview

This episode examines the widespread, grassroots, and institutional resistance to the Trump administration’s hardline immigration policies and authoritarian drift during his second term. It highlights how ordinary Americans, community groups, elected officials, and even states are innovating and mobilizing to protect vulnerable populations and confront government overreach. Additionally, the episode explores the consequences of Trump’s efforts to undermine institutions like the CDC, and the rise of alternative, non-federal solutions to pressing public health needs.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Blue Christmas and the Power of Small Acts of Resistance

• [00:55–04:19]
• Maddow opens by discussing "Blue Christmas," a church service tradition that acknowledges holiday sadness and grief, often connected to loss.
• This year, some churches staged "Blue Christmas" services outside immigration detention centers, blending faith and protest, as in Portland, Oregon.
• These events are attracting first-time protestors:

  “One church member… said, ‘It feels like this is one small way to have… some hope and light in the midst of darkness.’” (Rachel Maddow, 03:20)

• The show underlines that even symbolic, compassionate actions can matter during dark times.

2. National Outpouring of Resistance to Trump’s Immigration Crackdowns

• [04:19–08:16]
• Across Chicago, Louisiana, Minnesota, and New York, Americans are taking to the streets, organizing protests, and demanding city officials refuse to cooperate with ICE.
• Particularly poignant is the story of a 6-year-old boy in Queens separated from his father, sparking city-wide protests and legal-rights trainings.
• NYC Mayor-Elect Zoran Mamdani shares a widely circulated video detailing how New Yorkers can protect themselves and others from ICE:

  “If ICE does not have a judicial warrant signed by a judge, you have the right to say, I do not consent to entry, and the right to keep your door closed.” (Zoran Mamdani, 07:24)

3. Elected Officials Step Up: Oversight and Lawsuits

• [08:16–12:21]
• Democratic Congresswoman Adelita Grialva (AZ) faced violence during an attempt at oversight of a local ICE raid.
• Nebraska State Senator Michaela Kavanaugh is repeatedly denied legally mandated access to inspect a state-run immigration detention center and is considering legal action—reminding public officials nationwide of their oversight powers.
• Maddow stresses that “elected officials… must be allowed in to inspect these facilities… It makes the administration feel the pressure of knowing they’re being watched…” (Matt Taibbi, 11:20)

4. Targeted Messaging and Psychological Pressure on Immigration Agents

• [11:43–13:41]
• The Women’s March Win PAC runs haunting ads in communities affected by ICE raids—not for the public, but for agents themselves:

  “A mask can’t hide you from your neighbors, your children… and God. They all know you can walk away.” (Matt Taibbi, 13:05)

5. Local Victories: Newport, Oregon Fights Back

• [13:44–16:31]
• Newport—a crab fishing town—fought to block an ICE detention center and succeeded in getting its Coast Guard rescue helicopter reinstated after it was moved for border surveillance at the administration’s behest.
• Through protests, lawsuits, and pressure from local and state officials, Newport prevented local infrastructure from being repurposed for Trump’s immigration agenda.
• Maddow: “Sometimes when you fight, you win.” (Matt Taibbi, 16:31)

6. Suppression of the ICE Block App and First Amendment Lawsuits

• [16:36–18:31, 40:08–45:39]
• The Ice Block app, created by Texas developer Joshua Aaron, allows users to share real-time ICE activity—a tool for community defense.
• The Trump administration pressured Apple to remove the app from the App Store. Apple complied, but the move backfired, driving protest and a new federal lawsuit:

  “When we see the government doing something wrong, it is our duty as citizens to hold them accountable. And that’s exactly what we’re doing here.” (Joshua Aaron, 44:18)

7. The Collapse of Federal Institutional Legitimacy: The CDC Example

• [18:15–32:16, 33:33–40:02]
• Trump’s administration, with RFK Jr. as Health Secretary, is depicted as having broken the CDC by promoting anti-vaccine misinformation and rolling back longstanding policies.
• States and regional medical associations are now creating alternative, scientifically grounded health alliances:

  “Policymakers, physicians and families… must turn to reputable medical and public health groups for guidance. And health insurers should do the same...” (Dr. Richard Besser, summary of editorial, 35:54)

• Dr. Besser, former CDC director, affirms that CDC is no longer trustworthy under the current administration and urges Americans to rely on doctors, state health departments, and independent medical societies.
• Cautionary note: decentralizing health guidance could create a fragmented, unequal system—but it is increasingly necessary.

8. Reflection on the Danger of National Fragmentation and Lessons from History

• [27:23–29:34, 23:35–25:55]
• Historian Tim Snyder warns that Trump’s tactics may not create a coast-to-coast dictatorship, but could lead to national fragmentation.
• Maddow draws parallels to World War II Japanese American incarceration, noting that even in moments when mass protest is absent, the actions of a small, principled few can alter history.
• Quote:

  “That meant that the people who did stand up, the people who did take individual action alone, that took a very special kind of person.” (Matt Taibbi, 24:44)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On community protest as hope:

  “It feels like this is one small way to… remind people that they aren’t alone. There are a lot of us in the faith community that stand with them.” (Church member quoted by Maddow, 03:20)

• Mayor-Elect Zoran Mamdani’s rights primer:

  “ICE is legally allowed to lie to you, but you have the right to remain silent.” (Zoran Mamdani, 07:39) “New Yorkers have a constitutional right to protest, and when I’m mayor, we will protect that.” (Zoran Mamdani, 08:04)

• On the purpose of oversight:

  “It makes the administration feel the pressure of knowing they’re being watched, knowing they’re not in a black box or a legal black hole.” (Maddow, 11:20)

• On parallel power and fragmentation:

  “If the federal government is broken… Americans are going to start organizing alternative structures…” (Maddow, 29:29)

• Dr. Richard Besser’s distress:

  “There’s no part of my career I’m prouder of than serving our country as a civil servant… to have to say that I would not recommend people turn to the CDC… It’s absolutely heartbreaking.” (Dr. Besser, 36:24) “[The Trump administration] came in with that agenda and they very effectively put forward this nonsense that we can no longer support and endorse. And so you cannot look to the CDC for the information.” (Dr. Besser, 39:24)

• On free speech and the Ice Block lawsuit:

  “When we see the government doing something wrong, it is our duty as citizens to hold them accountable.” (Joshua Aaron, 44:18)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:55] — Blue Christmas and protest at ICE facilities
• [06:51] — Zoran Mamdani’s public service announcement to New Yorkers
• [08:16] — Congresswoman Grialva and Senator Kavanaugh challenge ICE access blocking
• [11:43] — Women’s March Win PAC anti-ICE advertisements
• [14:59] — Newport, Oregon’s successful fight to save the rescue helicopter
• [16:36] — Introduction of the Ice Block app and Trump administration/crisis
• [18:15] — Discussion of CDC’s decline, Dr. Richard Besser’s warnings
• [33:33] — Rise of multi-state health alliances in the wake of CDC failures
• [40:08] — Joshua Aaron describes Ice Block app lawsuit and removal from App Store
• [43:14] — Details of the First Amendment lawsuit against the Trump administration

---

Tone and Language

• Urgent, resolute, and deeply rooted in the language of civic duty and moral courage.
• Underlying themes of “fighting back,” solidarity, practical resistance, and learning from history.
• Speakers blend wonky legal/policy details with emotional human stories to underscore the stakes and encourage further grassroots action.

---

Takeaways for Listeners

• Local action and innovative resistance—whether by individuals, local officials, or states—really can disrupt authoritarian overreach.
• The Trump administration’s policies, especially regarding immigration and health, have sparked a broader awakening and activism among Americans who might never have considered themselves protestors or organizers.
• There is hope in small victories (e.g., Newport, Oregon; the resilience of the Ice Block app) and the steady courage of individuals.
• The ongoing erosion of federal institutions like the CDC is alarming; alternative infrastructures are already arising, but this is a fundamentally different, more fractured America.
• Listeners are encouraged to know their rights, pressure their elected officials, participate in community defense, and remain vigilant in defense of democracy.

---

This summary captures the heart of the episode’s content, highlights impactful moments, and should guide any interested listener wishing to understand the complex interplay between federal overreach, local activism, and the ongoing struggle for American democracy in the Trump era.

Transcript

[Matt Taibbi]

This is an Etsy holiday ad, but you won't hear any sleigh bells or classic carols. Instead, you'll hear something original, the sound of an Etsy holiday, which sounds like this.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Now that's special.

[Matt Taibbi]

Want to hear it again? Get original and affordable gifts from small shops on Etsy. For gifts that say, I get, you shop Etsy.

[Sponsor Announcer]

This episode is presented by Planned Parenthood Federation of America. This year, lawmakers have attacked our rights, stretched the truth, and taken away access to healthcare. Through it all, Planned Parenthood has been on the front lines providing care, defending patients, fighting back. But the Trump administration and Congress passed a law to defund Planned Parenthood, putting care for 1.1 million patients at risk. Planned Parenthood isn't backing down. They're still here, protecting access to birth control, cancer screenings, abortion and more. Visit plannedparenthood.org defend and donate today.

[Matt Taibbi]

Really happy to have you here. We are closing in on the longest nights of the year, the shortest days of the year. And as we get closer to that turnaround point, to the solstice when the days will finally start getting longer once again and the nights will finally start getting shorter, as we also, as we get close to that and we also, right around that same time, get close to Christmas.

One thing that a lot of churches do around this time of year is something that is called Blue Christmas.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I have a blue.

[Matt Taibbi]

It is not a modern Christian tradition that we built around an Elvis Presley song, I swear, but I thought that for years.

Blue Christmas is in addition to being an excellent Elvis Presley song and really, I think the anchor of the 1968 Comeback Elvis special, we can all admit. Anyway, in addition to that, Blue Christmas is a, it's a kind of a modern tradition. It's a service that a lot of churches do around this time of year to acknowledge that the holidays, while they are joyful for a lot of people and in a lot of ways, they are also sad for a lot of people, especially if you've lost people your life, right? The holidays are a time when you think about people that you've lost and there can be a lot of grief and a lot of sadness. So Blue Christmas religious services around this time of year, it's kind of a sweet way to acknowledge that, to sort of make some space for that sadness and grief with or without Elvis. A few days ago, a group of Presbyterian pastors organized a Blue Christmas service outside, outside the ice prison where they have been locking up immigrants in Portland, Oregon. Local news organizations, including the Oregonian newspaper, covered it. They reported That a lot of the people who came out for the prayers and carols and scripture readings at the gates of that facility for that blue Christmas service, those were people who had never taken part in any kind of protest at that facility before. They'd maybe never protested anything before. They'd certainly never been to that ICE prison. One church member who had never been to that site before, never protested before, said, quote, it feels like this is one small way to have, to kind of have some hope and light in the midst of darkness to remind people that they aren't alone. There are a lot of us in the faith community that stand with them. This weekend, Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem turned up in Chicago at the Navy Pier at a charity event that's held every year in Chicago around this time, where Christmas trees come in on a Coast Guard cutter and then they get distributed to needy families in Chicago through local Chicago nonprofits. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem was greeted this year by protesters. The Grinch stole Christmas, but Kristi Noem stole my neighbors. Also ice our Herod's henchmen, if you know, you know, this one could maybe stick with or I'm just imagining just big bold letters. Santa's watching, Christy. Santa's watching.

That was Chicago. This was, this was Kenner, Louisiana this weekend where they have adopted the whistles everybody used in Chicago to warn their neighbors about the presence of Trump's immigration agents. With Trump's agents now operating in places like Kenner, Louisiana. We've seen a whole bunch of Louisiana protests over the last few days, including this loud one in Kenner. Also protests at the federal building in New Orleans. We also saw anti ice, anti Trump protesters dragged out of the New Orleans City Council meeting a few days ago. Those protesters were demanding no collaboration with ICE from their local leaders in the city of New Orleans. Trump's immigration agents also are making a big show of force in Minnesota right now. These are workers at the Minneapolis St. Paul Airport protesting in the bitter Minnesota cold against deportation flights that are being flown out of the airport where they work. This weekend. New Yorkers rallied for this six year old boy who Trumps immigration agents took away from his father. They arrested and locked up the father who's an immigrant from China, and then they took his six year old son away from him and locked the boy up separately from where they locked up the father. Two different facilities.

This little six year old boy is enrolled in school in Queens, New York. In Queens, New York this weekend, people rallied in support of him to demand that he and his dad be reunited and to demand that they be set free. This weekend, more than 1,200 New Yorkers underwent very practical training on how to safely observe and safely protest and safely try to protect their neighbors from Trump's immigration agents in anticipation that Trump's going to try some big New York operation sometime soon. There's huge training events in multiple parts of New York City this weekend just to train regular people how to respond, how to try to protect their immigrant neighbors if and when Trump's attack on New York comes. The mayor elect of New York City is, of course, Zoran Mamdani. He gets sworn in on New Year's Day, but even in advance of Mayor Elect Mamdani's first day on the job as mayor. Look at this that he just put out. It's about 90 seconds long. Watch this. He put this out to help people in New York get ready to stand up against an anticipated attack by the federal government.

[Zoran Mamdani]

Last weekend, ICE attempted to raid Canal street and detain our immigrant neighbors. As mayor, I'll protect the rights of every single New Yorker. And that includes the more than 3 million immigrants who call the city their home. But we can all stand up to ice. If you know your rights. If you encounter ice, these are the things that every New Yorker should know. First, ICE cannot enter into private spaces, like your home, school, or private area of your workplace without a judicial warrant signed by a judge that looks like this.

If ICE does not have a judicial warrant signed by a judge, you have the right to say, I do not consent to entry, and the right to keep your door closed. Sometimes ICE will show you paperwork that looks like this.

And tell you that they have the right to arrest you.

That is false. ICE is legally allowed to lie to you, but you have the right to remain silent. If you're being detained, you may always ask, am I free to go? Repeatedly until they answer you. You are legally allowed to film ICE as long as you do not interfere with an arrest. It is important to remain calm during any interaction with ICE or law enforcement. Do not impede their investigation, resist arrest, or run. One last thing. New Yorkers have a constitutional right to protest, and when I'm mayor, we will protect that. New York will always welcome immigrants, and I will fight each and every day to protect, support, and celebrate our immigrant brothers and sisters.

[Matt Taibbi]

Okay, that is A, why he is a bigger deal in Democratic politics and in national politics than just being the mayor of the country's largest city.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Right?

[Matt Taibbi]

How well done that is, how compelling that is. But B, that is also Quality and very specific advice. I mean, when he, it's, that's a practical thing. When he shows, he shows you on screen, this is what a judicial warrant looks like. When he gestures as that on screen, like this is where you check for the judge's name and signature and then he shows you next. By the way, this is not a judicial warrant. This is what they will try to tell you is a judicial warrant, but it's not one that's just really helpful, really practical advice in terms of potentially interacting with Trump's immigration agents. That's New York City. In Arizona, Democratic Congresswoman Adelita Grialva was pepper sprayed by Trump's immigration agents and had pepper balls shot at her feet after she had identified herself as a member of Congress. That was in response to Trump immigration raid of some kind in her district in Tucson, Arizona. In Nebraska, they've tried to do a kind of Florida alligator Alcatraz style thing where the state of Nebraska is running an immigration prison for the federal government, but they're running it as a state facility. One Democratic state set senator named Michaela Kavanaugh from Omaha, Nebraska, she has now repeatedly turned up at the gates of that state run facility demanding to be let in to do oversight. She's in a good position to make that demand. There's a state law in Nebraska that says Nebraska state legislators are legally entitled to visit any correctional facility run by the state, quote, at any time. So she keeps turning up demanding to be let in. So far they will not let her in, but she's making repeated demands and going public about. And that is quite obviously grounds for a potent lawsuit. Right? It's also a potent reminder to members of Congress all across the country and to state legislators in these places where the states have agreed to run these immigration prisons. For Trump, it's a reminder that elected officials, in most cases, members of Congress, state legislators, in most cases, the law says they must be allowed in to inspect these facilities. In most cases without notice, so that they can see what's going on in there. It's a privilege afforded to elected officials that regular Americans can't employ, which means a lot more elected officials should be taking advantage of that, should be doing that in a lot more places, should be doing what state Senator Michaela Kavanaugh is doing in Nebraska. I mean, has your member of Congress been doing that, demanding to be let in to whatever federal immigration facility they're taking people to from your state? Do you know, your state rep, your state senator? I mean, when elected officials do that, when they show up at the gates. When they show up to say, I'm here to see what's happening.

They can get in in a way that regular people can't and even journalists can't. In most cases, they can get in to see what's happening there. They can tell the people, they can tell the press. It makes the administration feel the pressure of knowing they're being watched, knowing they're not in a black box or a legal black hole. They will have to answer for what they're doing one way or another someday.

Here's another way that point is being made very potently. A political action committee, a PAC called Women's March Win, has started running these ads in places where Trump's immigration agents are doing these big, showy operations. They've run them in places like Chicago, also in Charlotte, North Carolina. But it's interesting, this ad, I'm going to show it to you in a second. These ads are not targeting the public or even elected officials in these places. They're running these in places where Trump's immigration agents are being surged because they want the immigration agents themselves to see them watch.

You will be caught, you will be removed, and you will never return.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Daddy, how's your day?

[Matt Taibbi]

A mask can't hide you from your neighbors, your children.

And God. They all know you can walk away.

[Joshua Aaron]

Before the shame follows you home.

[Matt Taibbi]

Daddy, how was your day?

I mentioned those ads are running in places where Trump's immigration agents are being deployed in large numbers, places like Chicago and Charlotte, North Carolina. They've also run those ads on TV in West Palm Beach, Florida, I guess, on the unlikely chance that somebody with an itchy conscience.

Might be watching there as well.

Recently Here on the show, we reported on a scrappy, beautiful little community on the coast of Oregon, a town called Newport, Oregon, which is a Dungeness crab fishing town. The Trump administration apparently wants to put some kind of immigration prison in that town. The Trump administration also took away from that town the Coast Guard rescue helicopter there. There'd been a Coast Guard rescue helicopter stationed in Newport, Oregon, because of the Dungeness crab fleet, because of the extremely risky, extremely dangerous work of that fishing fleet there. The Newport, Oregon Coast Guard rescue helicopter has rescued more than 500 people in the past 10 years. And then the Trump administration, with no notice, with no local consultation at all, they took it away. So we reported here recently on locals in that town protesting against the removal of that rescue helicopter and protesting against the Trump administration's apparent effort to put some kind of ICE prison in that town. One Texas contractor that had been seeking land in the town near the airport, presumably for the immigration prison. That contractor pulled out and dropped their request to the town as soon as the locals started to protest.

Well, now the town of Newport has got their helicopter back as well. Local protests, huge local turnout at town halls and local government meetings. Both Oregon U.S. senators getting involved. A lawsuit brought by the locals that was then joined by the state. They, as of now, have their rescue helicopter back just in time for the start of the crab season.

The local state rep in that town told us today that he and a local fisherman's wives group were told by the Trump administration that they'd taken the rescue helicopter away in the first place because of personnel issues, staffing shortages. The Trump administration then reportedly told a different story to the state's US Senators, telling them, no, no, it's not staffing shortages or personnel issues. They told the senators it was a maintenance issue for the helicopter for some reason. But then, wouldn't you know it, once the Trump administration got dragged into court by these locals who sued them, the Trump administration had to admit under oath in court, yes, actually, they moved the rescue helicopter, Coast Guard rescue helicopter out of Newport, Oregon, because the Coast Guard was told to send a helicopter down to San Diego to fly around the Mexican border and look for immigrants.

That was the story. The comprehensive fricking uproar in that town has got them their Coast Guard rescue helicopter back. And so far, it means no immigration prison has gone up in that town either.

Sometimes when you fight, you win.

Tonight we're going to be talking to the app developer who made the app, the Ice Block app. Remember this one? We talked about this on the show as well. The iceblock app is an app for your phone. It helped people report to their neighbors when they saw Trump's immigration agents operating in their neighborhood. The Trump administration went to Apple, Apple, the literally multitrillion dollar company, Apple. The Trump administration went to Apple and told Apple that they needed to take the Ice Block app out of the App Store. And Apple caved immediately.

[Joshua Aaron]

Did it.

[Matt Taibbi]

They took the app down. They responded like they were some little pushover, scared operation that only wants to please the big bad bully because they have no choice. Apple did not stand up for itself. But the Ice Block guy, the guy who made the app, he is standing up. He told us when this happened. He told us here on this show that he had a plan to fight this, even if Apple wouldn't fight it. Well, now, today, he has put that plan into place. He has put that plan into effect. He's going to join us live here tonight. You are going to want to see that. Tonight we're also going to talk with a former director of the cdc, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. He's sounding the alarm that with the Trump administration having now been pretty well decimated the cdc, and really broken what is supposed to be our public health safety net as a country, he is setting the alarm that we're going to need to approach those challenges some other way, that we're going to need to do something else as a country to make up for what is now a broken, decimated, ruined cdc.

Because sometimes you fight to protect someone or protect something.

Sometimes you have to fight to build something new, to take the place of part of our government, part of our country. That these guys have destroyed.

The Trump administration right now seems to be at a weak ebb. They at least seem to be flailing in all sorts of interesting ways. Today you might have seen Alina Habba had to resign. Trump has appointed a bunch of more or less wildly unqualified U.S. attorneys, top federal prosecutors in multiple states. These are people who insanely inappropriate choices for these jobs. They apparently can't be confirmed even by the same Senate that confirmed Pete Hegseth. Like that's so low a bar, you can't limbo under it if you had three sets of knees. I mean, Trump has nevertheless tried to keep these wildly, wildly unqualified U.S. attorney picks in these jobs beyond the limits of the law. Cuz they can't stay there indefinitely if they can't be confirmed by the Senate. Multiple courts have now told Trump that he can't do that, that these people are not serving legally Today, after stomping and huffing about it for a while today, Alina Habba in New Jersey had to resign as U.S. attorney. The others who were appointed in circumstances similar to hers will likely have to resign as well. It's just a matter of when. One of the things Trump has used these bogus U.S. attorneys to do, particularly in the Eastern District of Virginia, is he's used these folks to bring federal charges against people he sees as his political enemies. Like, for example, New York State Attorney General Tish James, who Trump demanded should be charged with mortgage fraud for the way she filled out her mortgage paperwork. Remember that? Well, not only was that indictment against Tish James thrown out because Trump didn't properly appoint the U.S. attorney who brought that case, then a few days ago, Trump's Justice Department tried to bring the indictment against Tish James all over again. Under a new prosecutor, a grand jury told them to take a hike, refused, refused to indict Tish James when they went back to a grand jury and asked them to do it again. And now today, ProPublica reports that if Trump really wants Tish James to be charged with mortgage fraud for this particular paperwork issue he sees in her mortgage paperwork, well, he should probably check his own files because Trump's own mortgage paperwork from his own mortgages in Florida turns out to be filled out, out exactly the same way that Tish James paperwork was filled out. Oops, oops. Maybe he will turn himself in to be prosecuted. So we'll get into that tonight. The Trump administration and the President himself appear to have no idea how to handle the growing uproar over their repeated, obviously illegal bombings of civilian boats in the Caribbean and the eastern Pacific. Trump said last week that he would of course released the video of the second strike in September where they apparently deliberately bombed civilian survivors of a first strike on one of those boats. Well now today, Trump said actually he won't do that and he's denying that he ever said that he would. It was only last week. Do you really not remember?

At the end of this month, Americans health insurance premiums are due to skyrocket because of the policy changes Republicans forced through in Trump's so called big beautiful bill. Trump keeps saying that he's going to unveil a fix for that, that he's got some idea, he's got some plan. He pretty clearly doesn't seem to have any plan at all for how to fix that, which is going to be a big disaster for tens of millions of American families in less than a month, at the end of this month, when all of those premiums are going to go through the roof. And it is very clearly Trump and the Republicans faul popular now. Wait till that kicks in. Trump also appears to be dealing with his guttering out approval ratings on the economy and on inflation in particular by just stopping producing government data on inflation from here on out. Because surely if you don't publish data about it, then it won't really be happening, right? No one will notice what they're actually paying.

Americans are fighting against this administration in all sorts of interesting ways. And this President appears as weak and unpopular as he has ever been in all of his time in public life.

You're seeing that combination of his weakness and Americans appetite to fight him. You're seeing it in frankly every court except the United States Supreme Court. You're seeing it increasingly now even in the Congress you're seeing it at the black site prison gates amid the Presbyterian church ladies who have never protested anything before, but where they're now holding a blue Christmas service now at the gates of the prison for the people locked up inside.

Today we just released two new episodes of Burn Order, which is my new podcast about the incarceration of Japanese Americans during World War II and the remarkable fight against that.

Non Japanese Americans didn't come out in the streets and protest that when it happened, when their neighbors were rounded up and forced out of their homes and put on trains by the military and taken away to prison camps to what FDR called concentrate concentration camps.

Non Japanese Americans did not protest in the streets. It's one of the hardest things to come to terms with from that very dark time in our nation's history.

That said, there were some non Japanese Americans who nevertheless found ways, at least to help, at least to try to mitigate some of the harm, at least to go to the gates of the prisons.

And that is its own kind of defiance against the mistreatment of others.

There was no organized protest.

[Sponsor Announcer]

There were no petitions.

[Matt Taibbi]

There was no effort to challenge the mass removal. People watched on the streets as the buses took them away. What hurt them the most, what was very painful for many of them, was that America had turned their back on them.

That was true for most Americans. There was no mass movement of protests or loud objections or shows of solidarity. There was nothing at scale at least. But that meant that the people who did stand up, the people who did take individual action alone, that took a very special kind of person.

Including precisely one elected official, one unbendable politician, who stood quite alone when he put his career on the line to say no, to refuse to do it. And in so doing, he changed the lives of thousands of Americans who were otherwise being betrayed by their own country. So that's from Burn Order, my new podcast. Episodes one through four are out right now. They're free to listen on any podcast app. The final two episodes will come out next next week.

Times like this, I firmly believe that history is here to help. We've got a lot to get to tonight. Stay with us.

[Sponsor Announcer]

This message comes from the International Rescue Committee. Co founded with help from Albert Einstein.

[Matt Taibbi]

The IRC has been providing humanitarian aid for more than 90 years.

[Sponsor Announcer]

The IRC helps refugees whose lives are disrupted by conflict and disaster, supporting recovery efforts in places like Gaza and Ukraine, and responding within 72 hours of crisis. Donate today by visiting Rescue.org Rebuild. This episode is presented by Planned Parenthood Federation of America. This year. Lawmakers have attacked our rights, stretched the truth, and taken away access to health care. Through it all, Planned Parenthood has been on the front lines providing care, defending patients, fighting back. But the Trump administration and Congress passed a law to defund Planned Parenthood putting care for 1.1 million patients at risk. Planned Parenthood isn't backing down. They're still here, protecting access to birth control, cancer screenings, abortion and more. Visit plannedparenthood.org defend and donate today.

[Joshua Aaron]

Find new customers on a platform that's.

[Matt Taibbi]

Here to stay with TikTok for business, anything is possible. If you've ever thought about advertising your business on TikTok, now is the time to do it. You can drive more customers to your.

[Joshua Aaron]

Website, sell products right in the app.

[Matt Taibbi]

And you can even use TikTok's creative tools to easily make content and find creators to help sell your products for you. Find new customers today, just open your browser, type in getstarted.TikTok.com tiktokads and grow your business fast.

I got to do something really fun recently. I went to one of the greatest cities in the world, City of Chicago. I did a live event in Chicago at the Harris Theater right on the edge of Millennium Park. I got to speak with some of the really impressive, creative, resourceful leaders in Chicago. People who led the defense of that city when and the Trump administration's masked, indisciplined pseudo military immigration agents mounted their weeks long attack on that city in Chicago. I also got to sit down with the legendary historian Tim Snyder. His book on tyranny is a pocket sized and now ubiquitous guidebook to what individual people can do to stand up against and try to undermine authoritarianism. Chicago has been providing a sort of masterclass on that this first year of Trump 2.0. So if you were there in Chicago, it was great to see you. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming. Chicago, you don't disappoint. It was such an amazing, amazing night. That said, if you were not there and statistically speaking, if you're within the sound of my voice right now, you probably weren't.

I am pleased to tell you that you'll be able to watch that event here on Ms. Now this Friday, 9pm Eastern. It was kind of an amazing night in Chicago. We filmed it so we're gonna show it here 9 o' clock Friday this week. And I will tell you, one of the things that really stuck with me from that night was that Professor Snyder said at one point in our discussion that he is less worried about there. Ultimately being a coast to coast, totally autocratic Trump dictatorship that controls everything in the entire United States of Americ. He's less worried about that prospect than he is that what Trump is doing to the country might pressure us and damage us in such a way that the United States of America breaks up.

Because Trump is not just consolidating his power over the US Government, he's also simultaneously really breaking the government and breaking the country in as many ways as he can.

If the federal government is broken, if Trump effectively destroys.

Most important parts of the US Government, if that means in the very short term that Americans are losing data and infrastructure and services that the federal government alone provides, well, one of the things that's going to happen in the relatively short term is that Americans are going to start organizing alternative structures to provide those things some way other than through the federal government. Take, for example, the cdc. For decades, the CDC has been the gold standard of science and health data, not just for this country, but for the world.

Not now. You've heard by now that a CDC advisory panel appointed by RFK Jr voted a few days ago to roll back long standing recommendations about vaccinating babies for hepatitis B. RFK Jr. S Star wars bar scene handpicked advisory panel voted to get rid of that recommendation, even though that kind of vaccination is credited with virtually eliminating Hep B among newborns in the United States and saving all the lives attendant in that.

Later that same day, that same panel welcomed a lengthy presentation 76 slides long about vaccines. A presentation not from a doctor or a public health Expert, but from RFK Jr. S personal attorney, a man who has demanded, among other things, that the US Government should revoke approval of the polio vaccine. Because, yeah, who among us is not interested in bringing polio back at scale in the United States? 76 slides really, things are weird at the CDC now. That is one of the things that Trump has thoroughly broken. And the closer you look, the worse it is. The Trump administration, for example, very quietly appointed as the second in command at the CDC a former state health official from Louisiana who is credited with halting the vaccination campaigns in that state and promoting quack cures for COVID 19. They installed him as the number two official at CDC and then didn't tell anyone they had done so.

This is what has become of what used to be the global gold standard health organization which our country spent generations building. That was the envy of the world.

So what do we as Americans do about that? When the authoritative source, our doctors turn to the world's doctors turn to for the best scientific guidance on how to keep us healthy. When that entity can no longer be trusted, what do we do instead? Turns out there's a plan for that and it's already partially in effect. And that's here next. Stay with us.

Ah, the sounds of an Etsy holiday.

Now that's special. Want to hear it again?

[Sponsor Announcer]

Get original and affordable gifts from small shops on Etsy.

[Matt Taibbi]

For gifts that say I get you shop etsy. Thanks to TikTok ads, I was able to open up a business with my childhood friend and even hire employees. My name is Julian and I am one of the founders of the Snacks Lab. We are an exotic snack company. We import snacks from all over the world. We had over a hundred $100,000 in sales from our TikTok ads in the first month. So our orders went from five a.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Day to over 250 orders a day.

[Matt Taibbi]

You definitely have to use TikTok ads. TikTok for business is helping owners like you reach new customers every day. Head over to get started.TikTok.com tiktokads.

Holiday.

[Sponsor Announcer]

PSA from DSW this is your reminder that shoes are a gift.

[Matt Taibbi]

Literally.

[Sponsor Announcer]

So unwrap something good like boots that inspire your next big adventure. Or cozy slippers that give you an excuse to stay in. Or sneakers that feel like pure joy. Because shoes aren't just shoes, they're exactly what you wanted. Let us surprise you so you can surprise them. Find shoes that get you and everyone on your list at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or dsw.com.

[Matt Taibbi]

A few months ago, groups of states in the west and in the Northeast formed health alliances. They said they wanted to provide their state's citizens with guidance about vaccines based on the best scientific evidence. And they started to do that as states because the cdc, the federal agency that had provided that gold standard scientific data for decades, is now under the control of Trump's brain worms and whale carcasses and psychedelics. Weirdo Anti vaccine health secretary RFK Jr. After his hand picked advisory panel voted last week to roll back a decades old crucial recommendation on the Hepatitis B vaccine. Those new health alliances, the state based health alliances, they rejected the CDC's new advice. Those states are telling their doctors and patients to continue vaccinating for Hepatitis B. Just last week in Illinois, Governor J.B. pritzker signed a bill ordering his state's health department to establish state vaccine requirements for the people of Illinois that that will make vaccines more available to Illinois kids. That will require insurance companies to cover them. If the federal government breaks under the presidency of Donald Trump, who else can do this stuff? Who can step in? Former CDC chief Dr. Richard Besser says that if the agency he once ran continues in its current direction, quote, the health consequences will be devastating. More babies and young children will suffer from severe preventable illness and some will die. He says those of us who care about children's health cannot allow this to happen. Policymakers, physicians and families, and this is the really important part, must turn to reputable medical and public health groups for guidance. And health insurers should do the same for informing what vaccines they will cover. Turn to reputable groups. What's implicit there is that reputable at this point means not affiliated with the increasingly bizarre and broken US Federal government. If states and health institutions and even insurance companies start turning away from the US Federal government to create their own health infrastructure across this country by necessity. That's really interesting. It's also a really different kind of country than we have, than the one that we have been living in. Joining us now live here on set is Dr. Richard Besser. He's former acting head of the CDC. He's now president of the very, very important Robert wood Johnson Foundation. Dr. Besser, thank you so much for being here.

[Dr. Richard Besser]

It's great to be here.

[Matt Taibbi]

Rachel, let me ask you about the way that I have framed this. I certainly don't need you to accept that framing, but I want you to give you a chance to push back if you think it's wrong. I'm seeing an emerging need and an emerging development of non federal health infrastructure in this country in a way that seems to be coming sort of increasingly efficient because it needs to be.

[Dr. Richard Besser]

I think that's right. You know, I worked at the CDC for 13 years. There's no part of my career I'm prouder of than serving our country as a civil servant. And to have to say that I would not recommend people turn to the CDC for information about vaccines or any other health issue. To be honest, it's absolutely heartbreaking. But what we've seen with Secretary Kennedy is one of the nation's leading anti vaccine crusaders, now in a position to move forward an agenda that is so incredibly dangerous to the health of people. I'm a pediatrician and practiced pediatrics for more than 30 years. And I always told people to turn to the CDC if they wanted to really know the truth. They wanted to know the evidence. And you can't do that now. It's just impossible for someone who isn't a Scientist. And even there, it's challenging to sort out that from fiction.

[Matt Taibbi]

They don't seem to be basing their decisions, at least around this hepatitis B thing, which I followed pretty closely. They don't seem to be basing it on published data, on peer reviewed, published data that other people can review to assess the soundness of their decision. That alone, just as a process, seems like, you know, alchemy compared to chemistry. It just.

Is there any precedent for that at cdc? Has any mistake. Have mistakes of this type been made at CDC before?

[Zoran Mamdani]

No.

[Dr. Richard Besser]

I mean, there's an intentionality around it. So the presentations that were made at the meetings last week to reach that conclusion were done by people who are anti vaccine advocates. You know, the traditional way this is done is that CDC scientists who are experts in their field will present the evidence, the benefits from vaccines, the potential harms from vaccines, the information about the disease you're looking to prevent. And then there would be a really robust debate and discussion around what to do, what's the best policy. But here you have a public health strategy around hepatitis B that was working. You know, it had been changed in 1991 because while we'd reduced hepatitis B, we hadn't knocked it out of the park. And so they said, look, vaccinate newborns so that all of those kids who were getting infected when they were really young wouldn't get infected. And so by the time they were adults, they wouldn't develop liver failure, they wouldn't develop cancer. And it worked perfectly. A vaccine that was safe, that was effective, it worked. And here you have administrations that's saying, well, I don't think kids should get this vaccine. And it's like, why? Well, can you tell me that no one has ever been harmed by this? Well, science can't answer the question of never. You can't prove a never. You know, Paul Offit, who's a vaccine expert, says it's like saying, can you tell me a chicken McNugget has never caused harm? It's like, no, it's not the way it works. And so here you have an administration that is looking to take out the whole child vaccine schedule, and they're on the path to do that. Hepatitis B is just the start. And they came in with that agenda and they very effectively put forward this nonsense that we can no longer support and endorsed. And so you cannot look to the CDC for the information. You have to look to these other sources.

[Matt Taibbi]

And those other sources are going to include states and they're going to include medical associations.

[Dr. Richard Besser]

Yeah, I Mean, the Academy of Pediatrics is a great place to turn, but the first place people should turn is to their own doctor, their nurse practitioner, their pharmacist, someone they trust who can help sort through this information.

[Matt Taibbi]

Dr. Richard Besser, President of the Robert Wood Johnson foundation, former CDC director. Sir, thank you for being here. It's really good to have you.

[Dr. Richard Besser]

Thanks so much.

[Matt Taibbi]

All right, we'll be right back. Stay with us.

It's called Ice Block. It's an app for your phone. You know how there's apps you use when you're driving, and on the app, it tells you if there's a speed trap coming up. They get that speed trap information from other people using that app and reporting that the speed trap is there. Once you find out that it's there, you can make of that what you will. You can use that information however you see fit as you drive down the road. Iceblock does something very similar to that, but instead of speed cameras, it's for ICE activity for immigration agents. Maybe you want to avoid areas where they are operating for whatever reason. Maybe you just don't like tear gas or whistles. Ice Block was created by a software developer in Texas named Joshua Aaron. Naturally, the Trump administration has gone on the warpath against this thing. First, they tried to scare people out of using it. Attorney General Pam Bondi said they were looking at the app and said they were looking at Joshua Aaron that he better, quote, watch out. White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt actually attacked reporters for covering the app as news that backfired. Quote, ice Block climbs to top of the App Store charts after officials slam it. Rather than burying this thing, the Trump administration inadvertently spurred hundreds of thousands of Americans to download the app. After that own goal, the administration tried something else. They had tried pressuring the app's creator, Mr. Aaron. They had tried pressuring reporters that the new strategy was to pressure Apple to take the Ice Block app out of the App Store. For Apple iPhones. In October, Apple did that, removed Ice Block and other apps like it. Apple said the decision was based on information we've received from law enforcement.

But you know what? It's not clear this new strategy is working out all that well either. This was outside an Apple store in Portland, Oregon, on Black Friday. People dressed up in Santa hats and frog costumes protesting Apple specifically over the company's decision to block Ice Block from the App Store. And then today, this software developer, Joshua Aron, is now suing the Trump administration, suing Pam Bondi and Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem and a slew of other Trump officials for violating his First Amendment rights to free speech. Lawsuit says the Bill of Rights, including the First Amendment, was crafted precisely to safeguard the people's ability to question authority, expose governmental abuse and hold public officials accountable. A reflection of the founders belief that an informed and vocal citizenry is the ultimate guardian of liberty. Mr. Aron's creation, distribution and promotion of ice block is plainly lawful and protected by the First Amendment. Attorneys for Mr. Aron filing that suit today on his behalf in Federal court in D.C. attorneys, I should tell you, who are very well regarded attorneys who are considered to be very serious litigators. This lawsuit is a big deal. We reached out to Apple today for any comment the company might have. We haven't heard back, but we do have with us tonight the creator of Iceblock himself, Joshua Aaron. Mr. Aaron, thank you very much for coming back. It's nice to see you.

[Joshua Aaron]

Thank you so much for having me back.

[Matt Taibbi]

Rachel, why did you decide to file this lawsuit?

[Joshua Aaron]

Well, I think you summed it up beautifully in your intro. I decided to file this lawsuit because this administration violated our First Amendment rights. Rights. You know, in 1963, there's a Supreme Court case, Bantam Books v. Sullivan, and they define jawboning as unconstitutional governmental censure, censorship to suppress speech. I think I got that right. But basically what it did was it established jawboning as a direct violation of the First Amendment. So, you know, this is basically exactly what AG Bondi and the Trump administration did to us. And it's really interesting because I know that you love history. I love history. And it reminds me of one of my favorite Ben Franklin quotes, because when he was asked what kind of government the delegates had created, his answer was a republic, if you can keep it. Basically saying that our democratic republic is not guaranteed and instead requires an active and informed citizenry. And a lesson we should all take from that is that when we see the government doing something wrong, it is our duty as citizens to hold them accountable. And that's exactly what we're doing here.

[Matt Taibbi]

I saw that quote from the statement from your lead counsel, Deirdre von Dornam, who said, if we allow community sharing of information to be silenced, our democracy will fail. And it was exactly that point that you were just making that made me think of that. Let me ask you, what's the current status of the app? Are there platforms on which people can still get it, can still use it? Is there a web based version available, for example? Example, yes.

[Joshua Aaron]

It's a great question. There isn't a web based version available. However, anybody who has it installed can still use it just as they always have before and we encourage them to do so. The big difference when it was removed is that nobody can download it again. And funny enough, even myself, I, the creator, got a new phone and I don't have it on my phone because it is just not available anymore. So for anybody who does have it, I encourage you to keep using it and protect yourselves and your community.

[Matt Taibbi]

Joshua Aaron, developer of the Ice Block app, who today has brought a powerhouse lawsuit against the Trump administration for their efforts to shut it down. Keep a surprise. Mr. Aaron, thank you very much for your time tonight. I appreciate you being here.

[Joshua Aaron]

My pleasure. Thank you so much.

[Matt Taibbi]

We'll be right back. Stay with us.

One last thing before we go. If you had wanted to come to LA this weekend, come to see me in LA this weekend for the live event that I'm doing at the Orpheum Theatre on Sunday about Burn Order, the new podcast, that show, you might have noticed, has been sold out for a while. Just tonight we added a few dozen more tickets. I don't really understand how they did it, but they did. So if you had been wanting to come to the Orpheum Theater this Sunday for that live event, you can still do. So we just opened up new tickets, so you can scan the QR code on the screen right now to see what's available or just go to our website Ms. Now Burn Order. All right, that does it for me.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Tonight, come to DSW for the shoes. Stay for the fun. Because let's be honest, if shoe shopping isn't fun, are you even doing it right? So go ahead, try something new. Try something different, good different. Try something that feels like you, you.

[Matt Taibbi]

Know, the real you.

[Sponsor Announcer]

And then definitely brag about it later. Because at dsw, you've got unlimited freedom to play. Hey, find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or at dsw.com. let us surprise you.