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The Rachman Review
Bangladesh students win a chance for change
00:19:58
Interim leader Muhammad Yunus on his hopes for a better future
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Hello and welcome to the Rahman Review. I'm Gideon Rahman, chief foreign affairs commentator of the Financial Times. This week's podcast is about Bangladesh, the eighth most populous country in the world. My guest is Muhammad Yunus, the 84 year old Nobel Peace Prize winner and Bangladesh's interim leader. The students who led the uprising that overthrew the government of Sheikh Hasina last summer say they want a new Bangladesh. But can the country really stabilize and move forward? The Bangladesh Student and People's Uprising of July and August last year overthrew the government of Sheikh Hasina, who'd been running the country since 2009. She was widely accused of corruption and human rights abuses.
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They are killing people indiscriminately. People are being jailed, people are being tortured. At the same time you are seeing the courage of the people of Bangladesh who have decided they will not sit down. They will not, you know, go down without a fight.
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The tipping point may have been the so called July massacre in which it's estimated that over a thousand protesters, many of them children, were killed. With Sheikh Hasina gone, the student protesters turned to Muhammad Yunus. He's trying to stabilize the country and to crack down on corruption. One of the unexpected side effects was the resignation in Britain of a government minister, Tulip Siddiq, who is the niece of Sheikh Hossina. I met Mohammed Yunus at the World Economic Forum in Davos last week. A word of explanation before we listened to Bangladesh's interim leader. We met in a fairly crowded coffee lounge, so there's a bit of background noise, but stick with it. Muhammad Yunus is an extraordinary man in an extraordinary situation. He started by explaining how he saw last summer's uprising.
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It's unique event that has taken place in Bangladesh, almost unique in human history because they had no intention of bringing the government down. They were in an innocent kind of campaign for their jobs and things like that. It had no leaders.
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So what drove it? Was it the graffiti revolution?
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Graffiti is a later thing. When this demonstration came to the peak, boys and girls just painting things on the walls, just on the roadside, miles and miles of it and the emotion they express. They're not painters, they're school kids, they're college kids. It's amazing quality of the painting and the visions. That's what says it's unique. You don't have a political leader, nothing. They didn't have a theory, simply this is the government we don't want. They took away everything from us. One letter touched me very much. A 12 year old wrote a letter, left it home to the mother. Mother, you have been stopping me going to the demonstration. My friends are there demonstrating and some of them were killed. I feel guilty. I'm sitting home because you are not allowing me to go. I don't want to be a coward. I want to stand up for my country. So I'm leaving. I seek your blessing in case something happened to me. If I don't come back, please forgive me. And he went, didn't come back. So you can feel the emotions of the moment, of that tremendous amount of unity that is created when the children are going. Parents couldn't stop them, Parents joined them. So it's the mother, is the father accompanying the son so that he's protected. It became a mass movement for everybody. It's a tidal wave of human bodies. The final day moving into the direction of the house of the prime minister.
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And where were you at this point?
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I was in Paris, organizing the Paris Olympic. Because I was giving them a design how the real Olympics should be. I call it a social Olympic sports is not just fun. Sports are huge social power. The fact that you bring so many people together all over the world.
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And so how did you then get the call and come back that day?
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When first call came, I was in the hospital just for a small operation. So they called. I was watching the news every day on the mobile phone. What's happening in Bangladesh? They said, she left. Now we have to have a government. Please form the government for us. I said, no, I'm not the one. I don't know anything about it and I don't want to get involved with it.
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Who was it who contacted you? Students?
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I don't know these guys. Never heard them, never knew them. So I tried to convince them. They said, you find somebody. There are lots of good leaders in Bangladesh. You find them. They said, no, no, no, you have to be there. We can't find anybody. So I said, try harder. No, we don't have time. I said, use at least one day again for my sake. 24 hours later you can call me back. If you settle, I'll be extremely happy. They called me back, said, no, we tried very hard. It's not possible, we have to come back. So finally I said, look, you have given lives. You can see those pictures, shootings and so on and all. So much blood have been shed. And you are at the forefront of this. If you have done all this, probably I should do something against my wishes. And it is a time that it has to be done. Government has to be formed. So do you agree I said, yes, I agree. That's it. They didn't say a word. Two hours later, a nurse from the hospital comes with a bouquet to present to me. I said, what is this for? Said, you're the prime minister of Bangladesh. We didn't know that. I said, I just talked to these kids. I said, how do you know? He said, all over the press, all over television, they're saying that you are the prime Minister. I said, oh my God, I heard this news from you. Nobody told me yet. Two hours later, head of the hospital comes with more people, more bouquet. Greet me. You're a new prime minister. Hospital says you cannot leave until afternoon. So I told the hospital director, now that he's here, he said, they are insisting that I have to go. Can you prepare me so that I can travel? He said, of course, you are the prime minister. I have to obey you. So we'll make all the preparations so that he can go safely and give you medication and everything with you. And I think we can make it. And I'll be in touch. And few hours later, when the morning came, the big detachment of French army came to take me to the airport. I said, oh my God, what happened to me? So that is the journey that I have to take. I go to Bangladesh, entire nation waiting for my plane to come. It's a commercial flight so that they get a new government. So I have to address the nation right at the airport, asking for patience, peace, unity and all those kind of things. So that was the beginning of the whole story.
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So you've been in charge. How do you even start? And what have been your priorities? How have you adjusted them?
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Fasting. They said, you form your cabinet. I said, who do I get? Because you have to take oath. So I've tried to get to my house first, and then I was dragged to the President palace so that we can all take the oath. In the meantime, I have to find people to form the cabinet and so on. So we're together. So this is a very fast track. What do you do? That's the next question. Where do we begin? Now sit down and take a breath and see action one after another.
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And now, I mean, fast forwarding to today. What's the top priority?
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Top priority, number one, get the economy moving again, because whole economy is devastated economy. I don't have to explain to you, you know, that this entire country was kind of a subject of a highway robbery by the people who were running it. They stole everything. Banks are empty because they took the money. And taking over the bank is Easy on gunpoint. The board was asked to resign and government has own people to sit in the board and start issuing loans to people that they want. So it's a loan to you rent, any amount you want on paper, you'll never have to pay back. So that's how all the money went. $17 billion worth of money from the banking sector was plundered away. This is the facts that we have collected overall in the country. $16 billion per year on an average, taken away. So you see the economy, what it is right now is an empty shell of an economy. We were worried about the garment industry, which is our mainstay for the economy. So if that goes, we are gone, finished. We are very happy to see the confidence of the buyers is still there and factories are still running. So luckily that stayed. And our export earnings started increasing. Our export has expanded. That made us happy. Our foreign exchanges went down, luckily again. Suddenly remittance came as a savior for us. Remittance started increasing. Our outstanding payments to be made to our people who supplied things, we have to make payments and so on. We bought things from them. We didn't have enough money to pay them. Huge loans taken, loans are becoming due, we have to pay. So that's a big tension. How do we pay? So this is one part restoring the economy, part of it. And in the meantime, tell the people what we do from here. So one way we explained that since all the institutions have collapsed, we have to have a reform agenda. So we created 15 different reform commissions on constitutional reforms, on election procedure reforms, on judiciary reforms, on human rights reforms, many, many things. The police, administration reforms, everything. We gave them 90 days to submit the report. The 90 days are over this month. Some of them needed a week or two weeks extension. We did that. We already have five commission reports in our hand, but it will take two or three weeks more to get all of them together. So our idea is, when all the reports are available, we will have a consensus building commission so that you have so many reports, so many things. So we wanted to have a process of building consensus on which we all agree. Then we'll form what we call July Charter, the month of our student appraisal. July Charter will be the thing which unify the country, unify all our wishes into a charter, because you all agreed and you signed the charter. And that should be our historical document that we'll follow that. How much would be implemented before election, how much will be done after election? Whichever government is coming, their commitment, because you are a signatory here, will make sure that you follow this path. So we have announced election dates. One is by the end of this year. And I explained to people that that will not allow us enough time to do all the reforms. Some essential reforms can be done by that time. If you want some more reforms, we need another six months of time. So you choose whether by the middle of next year or by the end of this year, these are the two choices we give. So politicians want faster track. Let's get the election done and then we'll take care of the rest of it. So this is where we are. And I complained the global community. I said, you have been dealing with this government for all these years. He gave them awards. I said, what kind of system is it? Tell me.
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And here in Davos, do you think a lot of the people who facilitated it, the bankers, they're here?
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Yeah, they're all here. You're dealing with her and praising her for fast growth. These are fake numbers.
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Can you get the money back? Do you think there's any chance?
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This is what we're discussing here. How do we get the money back? Because this track is such a crazy thing. You give responsibility to somebody to bring the money back. You wonder whether he'll bring the money back to us or bring the money to them. We don't know. So we are trying to find out. Who do we trust? There's a huge amount of money going out. They're building houses, building real estate, investing in companies, putting in the bank account. One of the things that make news in the UK about Tulip and yes, this is a part of the whole thing.
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Do you think the British government was just naive or do you think they knew what was going on?
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That's the question we ask ourselves. How can you not know this thing?
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You know, Tulip's job was anti corruption.
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Yeah. She was the minister of anti corruption and this is what she did. And the whole family is involved. It's not just you live alone. Anybody connected with the family is making lots of money.
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And Sheikh Hasina herself is still in Delhi.
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She's in Delhi. And we said, well, you decide what you want to do because legally you have to repatriate at the same time. Whatever time she spends there, make sure she doesn't talk. Because. Because she's speaking all the time, attacking Bangladesh, addressing Bangladeshi people. There's a lot of misinformation in the press. Indian government tells us that this is not us. We are not doing it. It's the press doing it. But this is very, very negative. For example, headline would Be Yunus is a terrorist. He's been trained in Pakistan. He wants to establish Taliban regime in Bangladesh. And this is. Yunus has been sent by Americans. The whole American authority has prepared the whole scenario and put him there.
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What's the most important thing you want from the outside world, particularly perhaps the Europeans?
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European has been wonderful. I didn't expect so much warmth in them. They went out of the way to support us. They brought all the ambassadors from Delhi because most of the European Union ambassadors are located in Delhi looking after Bangladesh. So, no, we bring all the ambassadors to Dhaka. As a European Union, they are committed to do all the things they need. So I cannot expect more than that.
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Have you spoken to the IMF and the World Bank?
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We have touched base on everybody and they are very helpful. We have a lot of problems. We have not met many of the conditions that put during the previous regime. We said, sorry, we are not responsible, but we do our best. Help us to put the economy in the good footing. This is a chance. It's a historical chance. That's what we tell everybody. I genuinely believe that is a historical chance for Bangladesh and historical chance for our international friends. Can I just miss you a little.
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Bit on the elections thing? It was interesting because we were talking to Syrians. They also have the same issue. Do they have elections? And some people said, in theory, it's great to have elections quickly, but actually in the Syrian case, big mistake. Don't do it too fast. It can just split the country if.
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You do it too quickly. This is a good time because always I'm protecting the unity of the nation. I don't want to depart from that. One of the possibilities, the students themselves will form a party. In the beginning, when we were forming the cabinet, I took three of those students into my cabinet. I said, if they can give life for their country, they can sit in the cabinet and decide what is that given life for. And they're doing good work. Now the students saying, why don't we form our own political party? We'll take a chance. And they say, oh, you have no chance. You don't even get one seat in the parliament. Why? Because nobody knows you. I said, whole nation knows them. Let them take a chance, whatever they want to do, so they will do it. Maybe in the process of forming party, they'll fall apart. That's also danger because politics get in, all the politicians will penetrate into them. So we don't know whether they can remove themselves from the politics that we have in the country. This is a kind of chance. We have to take. But the students are ready, they're campaigning, they're organizing throughout the country.
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Can I put to you though one of the arguments that the Indians make? And they say Bangladesh, it's very fragile. Yunus may be okay, but they're Islamists who are going to take the country over. What do you say to that?
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We don't see such signs. At least I don't see any such signs. Young people are really committed. They have not a touch of ill will or personal desire to make a political career for themselves. They are joining or creating political body under the circumstances it's needed because they have to protect the things they have earned by their blood. Otherwise they will be taken away by all the people who are looking for the opportunity to repeat the previous kind of administration and so on. That's our political kind of environment with Bangladesh. So they were trying to protect that. So I would say students will have transparent intentions.
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You've obviously got enormous problems you have to deal with. What's the potential of the country, then deal with them.
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You don't run away with the problem because you have tremendous support internally, globally, what else you need? Bangladesh will never have this kind of support. Global support probably many, many years from now or never had it before. So that moment we have to capture, use it to build, as they call new Bangladesh. This is an opportune moment for all of us.
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And in terms of economic sectors you mentioned garments is crucial. I mean, when you look forward 20 years, what can Bangladesh.
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When I talk to business people, investors, I said, look, Bangladesh is a unique country in a sense of population. The eighth largest population in the whole world, tiny little country. All are young people. Our median age is 27. So the half the population is under 27 years old bubbling with ideas. They have technology in their hand. Everybody has a phone. They are internationally young people. Although they born and raised in Bangladesh, but they're international, their thinking is completely different and that's why they could do such a thing. I said, this is what Bangladesh is all about. I said, you don't have to invest in Bangladesh, a foreign country we don't know, relocate your industry. In Bangladesh you run everything. We only work for you. This is your factory. We produce technology related things. They know all the skill. Give them a chance. You want to make machineries, vehicles, give them a chance, they will build it for you. We never had any idea about the garment industry. Garment industry was thrown at us. And rural women never see it effect in their life. Were hired to do that. They know what a factor is today 80% of these workers are women coming from the villages and the most skillful. Nobody could beat them. They are the second largest garment industry product in the whole world. So this is what waiting for you. So all we have to do is to provide you the space. We have space already designated you Come. Power is a problem. We will solve the power problem because of hydroelectricity in Nepal, its unlimited capacity. Himalaya has given us this opportunity. Clean energy. All you'd have to do persuade India to let it come over India. Just a small space of 40 miles and something and we have enormous green energy waiting. And we serve, not Bangladesh. We are not talking about Bangladesh. Young people. Nepalese young people will be working. Bhutanese people. This will be an economy. Nepal, Bangladesh and eastern India. So I said our future economy is this region. They will be all over Bangladesh. They'll ship their products from Bangladeshi ports. We have a lot of port facilities. We'll have more because we have long shore with the Bay of Bengal. This is the economy that we are talking about. It will grow just like anything.
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That was Muhammad Yunus, the interim leader of Bangladesh, speaking to me in Davos and ending this edition of the Rahman Review. Thanks for listening and please join me again next week.
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