Podcast Summary: The Rachman Review

Episode Title: Mathias Döpfner: Transatlantic alliance in danger
Host: Gideon Rachman (Financial Times)
Guest: Mathias Döpfner, Chairman & CEO, Axel Springer
Date: February 20, 2025
Location: Berlin
Guest Contributor: Laura Patel (Financial Times Berlin correspondent)

Overview

This episode tackles the future of the transatlantic alliance as Germany faces national elections—the far-right AfD (Alternative for Germany) surging in polls and the US Vice President J.D. Vance provoking controversy by urging inclusion of the AfD in German politics. Gideon Rachman and Laura Patel speak with Mathias Döpfner, an influential conservative and pro-American voice in Germany, about how these developments threaten not only German democracy, but the broader relationship between Europe and the US. They delve into populism’s rise, the crisis of centrist politics, media bias, free speech, the future of transatlantic trade, and the existential tension with Russia and China.

Key Topics & Insights

1. J.D. Vance’s Speech and the AfD Debate

• Controversial Intervention:
  • Vance’s Munich speech called for including AfD in German political debate, sparking outrage.
  • (00:49) J.D. Vance: "Democracy rests on the sacred principle that the voice of the people matters. There's no room for firewalls."
• Döpfner’s View: Engage, Don't Exclude:
  • Döpfner criticizes the German reaction to Vance as "unstrategic" and "dangerous."
  • (02:59) Döpfner: "To just react to everything in a bitter way and then call for European isolationism, I find that very inappropriate."
  • (05:02) Döpfner: "To exclude [AfD] up front makes it so easy for this movement to simply say, 'we are outcasts and we are not part of the discussion.'"

Memorable Quote:

"I think everybody is free to agree on a potential coalition or not. And I personally think it would be a big mistake to treat the AfD as a normal political movement and to form a coalition with it. But to exclude it right away, I think has made it big." — Mathias Döpfner (04:08)

2. The Nature of AfD and the German Past

• Döpfner differentiates the AfD from other populist disruptors (Trump, Meloni, Milei), calling AfD uniquely pro-Russian, weak on antisemitism, and anti-American.
• (08:26) On Nazi history and AfD:
  • "Whenever it's about the remembrance of the German past during Nazi times and the Holocaust, you get at least mixed signals... Those are gestures, and we should take that seriously."
• Free Speech Limits:
  • (09:12) Döpfner: "I'm really a free speech evangelist, but I think the German history is reason enough to treat that topic differently."

3. Populism, Migration, and the Failure of Centrism

• Döpfner warns that taboo and exclusion have expanded AfD’s reach, particularly as centrists mishandled migration and failed to tackle genuine voter concerns.
• (10:37) Döpfner: "The denial of the migration problem by large parts of the political left is, I think, the most counterproductive thing because it strengthens the radical right..."

4. The Last Stand for Centrism

• With the AfD likely to do well—but not enter government—Döpfner argues this may be the last chance for the old political order.
• (11:02) Döpfner: "It is really the last chance of centrist parties in Germany... if Maoz is forced after a potential win... to form a coalition... with the Greens and with the Social Democrats... [without] substantial reform... then I think the AfD will be strengthened further."

5. Transatlantic Alliance in Peril

• Döpfner’s Warning:
  • (13:50) "The transatlantic alliance is in real trouble. The trouble started in the times of Angela Merkel and Barack Obama and has not improved since then."
• He advocates a robust, united front with the US against autocratic powers, and for a genuine transatlantic free trade zone.
• (14:19) "If the idea of America first means America alone, it's not going to work."

Memorable Quote:

"We should take Trump seriously, but we should not take him literally... this is the invitation to dance... instead of being kind of bitter and offended, we should now sit together and discuss the situation." — Döpfner (15:07)

6. Russia, Trump, and the Rule of Law

• Döpfner is deeply concerned about Trump’s ambiguity on Russia/Ukraine:
  • (17:57) "If [Trump lifting sanctions] is a dictated peace and Russia wins the war, then I think it is truly a turning point in world history."
• On Trump’s claim that a leader saving a country cannot break the law:
  • (20:12) "That is, for me, exactly the red line that should never be crossed."
• Personal anecdotes contrast autocrats’ "I will fix it" attitudes with democracies’ reliance on institutions and law.

7. Axel Springer’s US Media Experience

• The Trump administration accused Politico of "liberal bias" and stopped their subscriptions.
• Döpfner describes being labelled both a right-wing conspirator (in Germany) and a left-wing one (in the US) as an ideal spot for an independent publisher.
• (22:11) "America is for us the biggest market... If we have to deal with some setbacks like a few days ago when suddenly Politico was identified as the arch enemy... then we should react a little bit more relaxed perhaps... that's exactly the position where an independent publisher should be in."

Second Half: Media, Technology & Transatlantic Business

(From 23:58 — Laura Patel joins)

8. Politico, Media Bias, and Trump

• Döpfner clarifies the Trump-POLITICO row: no subsidies, only subscriptions to government bodies.
• (24:16) "To portray that as a subsidy is really an almost funny misunderstanding... I hope that this principle [of free speech] will also be upheld for journalism that you don't like."
• Admits "a sort of inherent left wing liberal bias" exists in media, but warns:
  • (25:51) "You cannot fight a bias with a new bias."

9. Business Independence and Ambitions

• Post-KKR buyout, Döpfner enjoys “true entrepreneurial decisions”—less short-term market pressure, more risk but more freedom.
• On Wall Street Journal speculation:
  • (27:55) "According to my information, the Wall Street Journal is not for sale... we would double and triple check to add to this portfolio a print element... But I would take a bet... we are not going to buy it."

10. Big Tech, Social Media, and Regulation

• Döpfner calls for TikTok to be sold or banned over democracy and surveillance concerns.
• (29:33) "In every democracy of self-esteem TikTok should be banned or sold because under this Chinese ownership... it is a fundamental democracy problem."
• On regulation:
  • (30:59) "I think we need a transatlantic regulation... if America... is deregulating and Europe... is regulating even further, then I think that is self-destructive for Europe."
• The opportunity of AI outweighs the risks—if competition remains fair and power is not concentrated among autocrats.

Final Thoughts: Europe’s Moment of Reckoning

(32:17 onwards)

• Döpfner calls Vance’s speech “historic”—potentially either the end, or a renewal, of the transatlantic alliance.
• (32:39) "A reawakened, rejuvenated Europe that is successful and strong will be a much more attractive partner for America."
• Instead of "Europe alone," Döpfner urges, Europe should seek strength to become a better partner for America and to secure its own future.
• (34:29) Döpfner: "[Europe] really needs America as a partner out of a position of strength. And now let's go for it."

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "To exclude [AfD] up front makes it so easy for this movement to simply say, 'we are outcasts and we are not part of the discussion.'" — Döpfner (05:02)
• "The denial of the migration problem by large parts of the political left ... leads not to less xenophobia, it leads to more xenophobia." — Döpfner (10:37)
• "The transatlantic alliance is in real trouble. ... If the idea of America first means America alone, it's not going to work." — Döpfner (13:50, 14:19)
• "We should take Trump seriously, but we should not take him literally." — Döpfner (15:07)
• "If [Trump lifting sanctions] is a dictated peace and Russia wins the war, then I think it is truly a turning point in world history." — Döpfner (17:57)
• "That is, for me, exactly the red line that should never be crossed." [about the leader above the law claim] — Döpfner (20:12)
• "You cannot fight a bias with a new bias." — Döpfner (25:51)
• "In every democracy of self-esteem TikTok should be banned or sold..." — Döpfner (29:33)
• "A reawakened, rejuvenated Europe... will be a much more attractive partner for America." — Döpfner (32:39)

Useful Timestamps

• 00:49 — J.D. Vance speech excerpt
• 02:59 — Döpfner critiques response to Vance
• 08:26 — AfD, the Nazi past, and remembrance
• 10:37 — Role of migration issues in AfD’s rise
• 11:02 — “Last chance” for centrists
• 13:50 — Transatlantic alliance under threat
• 14:19-16:40 — Döpfner on trade, tariffs, and alliance
• 17:57 — Trump, Russia/Ukraine “turning point”
• 20:12 — Trump, rule of law, and leadership
• 22:11 — On US backlash against Politico
• 24:16 — Trump vs. Politico: misunderstanding explained
• 25:51 — Media bias: "You cannot fight a bias with a new bias."
• 29:33 — TikTok, democracy, national security
• 30:59 — On EU/US regulation of big tech
• 32:39 — Döpfner’s prescription for European rejuvenation

Summary

This episode delivers a sweeping, candid conversation weaving together German politics, populism, media, technology, and transatlantic anxieties. Döpfner, though deeply Atlanticist, is clear-eyed about existential dangers facing German and European democracy from both within (right-wing populism, political complacency) and without (Russian and Chinese autocracy, US unpredictability under Trump/Vance). He challenges both moral certitudes and comfortable habits—warning that only a courageous, innovative Europe, working as a peer with the US, can preserve democracy and prosperity in the 21st century.