The Rachman Review: "Splits in the MAGA Movement"

Host: Gideon Rachman (Financial Times)
Guest: Jacob Heilbrunn (Editor, The National Interest)
Date: December 4, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode examines the growing fractures within Donald Trump’s Make America Great Again (MAGA) movement. Gideon Rachman and Jacob Heilbrunn delve into controversies ranging from accusations of antisemitism, the MAGA movement’s shifting attitudes toward Israel, the influence of figures like Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes, and the destabilizing effect of the Epstein scandal on Trump’s support base. The conversation provides a window into both the evolving ideological divides on the American right and the pressures threatening to tear MAGA allegiances apart.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Emergence of Divisions in the MAGA Movement

• Tensions over Israel and Antisemitism:
  • Trump supporters are increasingly split on issues of foreign policy, particularly the relationship with Israel, and on how to handle accusations of antisemitism within the movement.
  • The influence of overtly antisemitic personalities like Nick Fuentes has sparked fierce debate.
• Controversial Media Platforms:
  • Tucker Carlson, once a MAGA ally, is both criticized and defended for giving a platform to extremist figures.
  • Notably, he interviewed Nick Fuentes, identified as a white nationalist and Holocaust denier ([01:06–01:55]).

2. Influence of the Heritage Foundation

• Organizational Shifts:
  • Under Kevin Roberts, Heritage has realigned itself closer to Trump’s America First ideology, abandoning much of its Reagan-era internationalism.
  • “He exiled scholars who believed in this Reagan era ethos and replaced them with Trumpers. For him... it was a no-brainer when Tucker Carlson... came under withering criticism, Roberts followed the ‘no enemies to the right’ policy and defended Tucker and, by implication, Fuentes.” – Jacob Heilbrunn ([02:44–04:10])

3. The Fuentes and Carlson Controversy

• Why is Fuentes so Toxic?
  • Fuentes’s explicit racism and Holocaust denial make association with him impossible for mainstream conservatives.
  • “He’s an explicit admirer of Third Reich... That struck a nerve with establishment Republicans and neoconservatives... and any sentient human being who has a shred of morality left.” – Jacob Heilbrunn ([04:15–05:10])
• Carlson’s Motivations:
  • Partly driven by ratings, but also by ideological aims—challenging what he and others see as undue Israeli influence over US policy.
  • “Tucker is constantly looking to provoke... He’ll say, ‘You’re going to hear that everything you’ve been told is not true.’ And that is, of course, where the beginning of the conspiracy theory goes.” – Jacob Heilbrunn ([05:14–06:13])

4. Trump, Vance, and Calculated Silence

• Trump’s Position:
  • Trump publicly supported Carlson, refusing to disavow him or Fuentes, wary of alienating his hardcore base, notably white nationalists ([06:43–07:29]).
  • “He has zero incentive to turn his back on these white nationalists. He has zero incentive to do so.” – Jacob Heilbrunn ([07:29])
• Vance’s Dilemma:
  • Vance aims to inherit Trump’s coalition, balancing the “techno-fascist” right and MAGA base, choosing neither to endorse nor openly reject the more extreme elements ([08:23–09:09]).

5. Tucker Carlson’s Political Ambitions

• Potential Challenger to Vance:
  • Carlson is perceived as a credible presidential candidate, admired for intellect and rhetorical ability.
  • “I would say Tucker is actually quite brilliant. During the first Trump presidency, we talked for hours about Trump... Tucker is very clever... has the rhetorical abilities of a Ronald Reagan or better.” – Jacob Heilbrunn ([10:02–10:46])
  • Heilbrunn distinguishes admiration for skill from support, clarifying he is not endorsing Carlson ([10:49]).

6. The Israel Debate and Horseshoe Politics

• New GOP Foreign Policy:
  • Younger conservatives and opinion leaders are increasingly anti-interventionist, critical of Israel’s influence—shared ground with factions on the left ([11:09–11:51]).
  • Carlson, whose early career was shaped by neoconservative institutions, is now viewed as leading the charge for repudiation.
  • “Tucker’s post Weekly Standard career is an attempt to repudiate all of that, and that includes repudiating Israel.” ([12:20–12:41])
• Risk of Party Realignment:
  • “This new wave of energy in the GOP could break the long standing alliance with Israel that we’ve experienced since the 1980s.” – Jacob Heilbrunn ([13:44])

7. Younger Republicans and the Rise of “Fuenteism”

• Emerging Trends:
  • Scandals show young Republicans making Holocaust jokes and antisemitic remarks.
  • Reference to Politico’s exposé and Vance’s half-hearted response ([14:24–15:02]).
  • “These impulses from. From the past were suppressed for a while, but they are reemerging.” – Jacob Heilbrunn ([15:04])
• Return to Older Traditions:
  • The right’s current flirtation with explicit antisemitism echoes a long, though at times suppressed, tradition in American conservatism.
  • Cites the National Review in the 1950s and Patrick Buchanan’s rhetoric as evidence ([15:26–16:38]).

8. Coexistence and Battles Within the GOP

• Internal Contest:
  • Neoconservatives and pro-Israel voices remain influential and are attempting to push back against the “Fuentes crowd.”
  • “They are worried about being extruded from the GOP. This is a battle for power and influence.” ([17:13])
  • The Jewish vote holds strategic (if not numerical) importance in key states ([17:51–18:09]).

9. The Epstein Scandal and MAGA’s Existential Crisis

• Uncontrollable Scandal:
  • The release of Epstein’s files is depicted as the first scandal Trump cannot manage.
  • “His power has been based on his ability to cow the Republican Congress into submission. And that power seems to be fading now, particularly with this vote.” ([20:40])
• Conspiracies and Betrayal:
  • QAnon and similar movements thrived on claims about Democrat pedophile rings; MAGA’s resistance to unsealing the Epstein files is provoking anger within their own base ([21:26–22:46]).
  • “For Trump then to suddenly announce that... we’re not going to release what Epstein was up to... it just doesn’t fit.” ([22:46])
• Epstein's Web:
  • Conspiracies are linking Epstein with Israel; speculation swirls about what connections the files will reveal ([23:09–23:59]).
  • “Maybe that’s the ultimate story is the web of influence that Epstein did enjoy around the world. And to what extent did he deploy it on Trump’s behalf?” ([23:59])

10. Final Reflection

• Fundamental MAGA Precept:
  • The episode closes with the observation that MAGA is built on the narrative of elite corruption—Epstein’s reach, if proven, might validate this worldview.
  • “Its fundamental precept is that the elites are corrupt and sexually corrupt as well. And what if, as crazy as the MAGA movement is, what if they were right about this?” – Jacob Heilbrunn ([24:32–24:52])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Heritage’s transformation:
  “[Roberts] exiled scholars who believed in this Reagan era ethos and replaced them with Trumpers. For him, I think it was a no-brainer...” – Jacob Heilbrunn ([03:24])

• On Fuentes:
  “He’s an explicit admirer of [the] Third Reich... struck a nerve with establishment Republicans and neoconservatives who have long been allied with the Republican Party. And let’s be frank, with any sentient human being who has a shred of morality left.” – Jacob Heilbrunn ([04:15–05:10])

• On Carlson’s media strategy:
  “Tucker is constantly looking to provoke... And that is of course where the beginning of the conspiracy theory goes and you start jumping down rabbit holes.” – Jacob Heilbrunn ([05:14–06:13])

• On young conservatives:
  “These impulses from the past were suppressed for a while, but they are reemerging.” – Jacob Heilbrunn ([15:04])

• On the Epstein files’ threat to Trump:
  “Trump though has single handedly fed the Epstein frenzy. And I think it’s in the Democratic Party’s interest for him to continue to stonewall the actual release of the files. They’re probably more mysterious if they’re not released than if they are.” ([19:45–20:01])

Important Timestamps

• 00:22: Introduction of splitting issues in MAGA (Epstein, Israel, antisemitism)
• 01:06–01:55: Tucker Carlson’s controversy over interviewing Nick Fuentes
• 02:29–04:10: Heritage Foundation’s shift and defense of Carlson
• 04:15–05:10: Analysis of Fuentes’s toxicity
• 06:43–07:29: Trump’s refusal to disavow Carlson and the white nationalist base
• 09:26–10:46: Tucker Carlson’s potential political ambitions and skillset
• 11:09–13:03: The shift in GOP towards anti-Israel sentiment and the “horseshoe effect”
• 14:24–15:04: Politico scandal and “Fuenteism” among young Republicans
• 16:08–16:38: Historical perspective on right-wing antisemitism
• 17:13–18:09: Neoconservative pushback and the role of Jewish voters
• 18:42–24:52: Epstein scandal and its repercussions for Trump and the movement

Conclusion

This episode lays bare the internal fissures in the MAGA movement, the danger posed by extremist and conspiratorial elements, and the potential realignment of the American right on foundational issues like race, antisemitism, and foreign policy. The conversation richly connects immediate political controversies with longer historical patterns and marks out the uncertain trajectory facing Trump, his allies, and the broader conservative movement.