The voice of moderate America

Summary

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The Rachman Review

Episode: The Voice of Moderate America
Date: November 27, 2025
Host: Gideon Rachman
Guest: Senator Jean Shaheen (D-NH), Senior Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the current state and trajectory of American foreign policy under the Trump administration, with a particular focus on Ukraine, Gaza, Venezuela, U.S. alliances, and domestic political undercurrents. Gideon Rachman interviews Senator Jean Shaheen, who offers an insider’s perspective on the bipartisan response to Trump’s controversial moves, challenges within Congress, shifts in global alliances, and the resilience of American democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ukraine and U.S. Foreign Policy (00:00–05:12)

• Trump’s Peace Plan:
  The administration has presented a plan to end the Ukraine war, perceived as heavily favoring Russia.

  • Shaheen's view:
    “That is not the kind of peace deal that I’m going to support.” (02:07)
    She criticizes the Trump administration for refusing to put meaningful pressure on Putin and for allowing the war to continue through inaction.
  • Bipartisan Support:
    Despite apparent partisan divides, Shaheen claims “strong bipartisan support” for Ukraine in Congress, citing recent bills targeting Russia and Chinese companies aiding its war effort.

• Congressional Dynamics:
  Acknowledges uncertainty about whether Republicans will oppose Trump if he pushes for his deal, but notes “to date, they have been pretty loud in support of Ukraine.” (03:44)

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2. U.S.–European and U.S.–Asian Alliances (05:12–07:16)

• European Relations:
  • Shaheen credits NATO Secretary General Rutte for securing defense spending commitments but sees ongoing inconsistency from the Trump administration, especially regarding tariffs and waivers for Hungary.
  • “This is not an administration that has been at all consistent in how it handles foreign policy.” (06:22)
• Asian Relations:
  Despite strain from forced trade deals, Asian allies continue to work with the U.S., recognizing the necessity of partnership amid “inconsistent messages.” (06:39)

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3. The Middle East: Saudi Arabia, Gaza, Israel, and Iran (07:16–14:19)

• Meeting with Mohammed bin Salman:
  Recent Senate talks with MBS focused on regional stability, the Gaza situation, Syrian sanctions, Iranian influence, and possible cooperation on Sudan.
  • Human rights concerns, especially over women’s rights and the Khashoggi murder, remain contentious.
    “I did raise concern about women’s rights in Saudi Arabia. And he acknowledged that they were working very hard to address those.” (08:57)
• Role of Saudi Arabia:
  Shaheen recognizes their pivotal role in the Middle East despite remaining “areas that we don’t agree with” (08:57), notably on human rights.
• Gaza Ceasefire & Regional Stability:
  The new ceasefire is fragile. Shaheen is “hopeful that it sticks because we don’t have much of a backup plan at this point.” (10:18)
  • On Gaza’s future: integrating it with the West Bank presents “very big challenges and very big questions about the future.” (10:39)
• Israel and U.S. Domestic Politics:
  Biden, Trump, and Obama administrations have all aimed to reduce focus on the region but, Shaheen suggests, “that never seems to work out.” (12:22)
• Israeli Politics:
  Shaheen distinguishes support for Israel from support for Netanyahu’s government, expressing concern over how the Gaza war is being managed and the blocking of humanitarian aid. (13:53)

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4. China, U.S.–China Relations, and Great Power Competition (14:53–19:20)

• China’s Growing Strength:
  Shaheen notes that China is “in a much stronger position than they were during the first Trump administration” due to successful tariff retaliation and economic leverage. (15:28)
• Global Retreat & Leadership:
  She references a Senate Foreign Relations Committee report outlining America’s withdrawal from global engagement and China stepping in to fill the vacuum. (16:31)
• On Avoiding Great Power Conflict:
  Critiques Trump’s approach as contradictory: assembling military force in the Caribbean while offering mixed signals on Russia and China (17:33).
  • Quoting President Zelensky: “Russia is not just gearing up for Ukraine, it’s gearing up to go into Europe.” (18:14)
    • Russia’s incursions into NATO countries’ airspace are cited as warning signs.

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5. Venezuela and U.S. Military Posture in the Caribbean (19:20–21:00)

• Venezuela Crisis:
  Trump has left open the possibility of military intervention under the guise of fighting cartels—a move Shaheen warns may lead to dangerous escalation.
  • “We need to make sure that we’re acting within international law and that what we’re doing does not risk further escalation.” (19:44)
• Congressional Oversight:
  Shaheen laments the lack of administration transparency, with only minimal briefings given to Congress on Venezuela actions. (20:30)

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6. Domestic Politics and Public Sentiment (21:00–25:53)

• Ebbing Trump Power:
  Shaheen points to electoral results and bipartisan votes (such as forcing the release of Epstein files) as signs that “the tide is turning against Trump a little.” (21:17)
• Economic Pain:
  Tariffs have driven up costs and created uncertainty, with no revival of American industry in sight:
  • “It doesn’t matter how high the tariffs are, the industry that we’re in is not coming back.” (22:24)
• Immigration Backlash:
  There’s widespread pushback against the administration’s “wholesale rounding up of people,” with public demonstrations and fears about America closing its doors to immigrants. (23:20)
• Government Shutdown Resolution:
  Shaheen played a central role in brokering a compromise, viewing it as a necessity to protect federal workers and restore food assistance, illustrating that “normal politics” and negotiation can still work. (24:29)

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7. The State and Future of American Democracy (25:53–28:22)

• Democracy under Strain:
  Shaheen warns that democracy “is hard. You can’t take it for granted. You have to engage in it.” (26:23)
  She notes historical struggles, reminds listeners of the need for public engagement, and acknowledges that courts are beginning to rein in executive excesses.
  • “Donald Trump is not abiding by the rule of law in so many areas, and the courts are beginning to hold him accountable.” (27:09)
  • “Democracy doesn’t always work the way we want it to, but I think it works if we engage in it.” (27:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Ukraine Peace Plan:
  “It’s a peace deal with Russia over Ukraine, and that is not the kind of peace deal that I’m going to support.”
  — Senator Shaheen (02:07)

• On Trump’s Foreign Policy Consistency:
  “This is not an administration that has been at all consistent in how it handles foreign policy.”
  — Senator Shaheen (06:22)

• On Trump’s Tariff Policy:
  “Every business I have visited in New Hampshire since the tariff regime was put on, has said to me two things. One is the uncertainty has been as difficult as the dollar amount, and the other is their costs are going up...”
  — Senator Shaheen (21:55)

• On Democracy:
  “The fight for democracy is hard. You can’t take it for granted. You have to engage in it.”
  — Senator Shaheen (26:23)

• On Russia’s Intentions:
  “Russia is not just gearing up for Ukraine, it’s gearing up to go into Europe.”
  — President Zelensky, as quoted by Shaheen (18:14)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:00–05:12: Ukraine peace plan, U.S. bipartisan support, prospects for new aid
• 05:12–07:16: U.S.–European and U.S.–Asian alliances under strain
• 07:16–14:19: Saudi Arabia, Gaza, Iran, Israel, and prospects for Middle East peace
• 14:53–19:20: China’s growing strength, tariffs, global leadership and competition
• 19:20–21:00: Venezuela, U.S. military moves in the Caribbean, congressional oversight
• 21:00–25:53: U.S. domestic politics: economic pain, immigration, and government shutdown
• 25:53–28:22: The state and resilience of American democracy

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Tone & Takeaways

Senator Shaheen embodies the moderate, pragmatic wing of American politics. Her remarks are measured, frequently bipartisan in spirit, and deeply critical of what she sees as the Trump administration’s inconsistency, isolationism, and abandonment of traditional alliances and values. While she is blunt about the current dangers—in both foreign affairs and domestic politics—her message ultimately emphasizes civic engagement, the potential for bipartisan solutions, and the enduring (if challenged) strength of American democracy.

Transcript

[A]

Hello, and welcome to the Rachman Review. I'm Gideon Rahman, chief foreign affairs commentator of the Financial Times. This week's podcast is about American foreign policy from Ukraine to Gaza and Venezuela. My guest is Senator Jean Shaheen of New Hampshire. She's the senior Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. We met in Washington last week just as news of the Trump administration's crisis, controversial plan to end the Ukraine war was emerging. So what can we expect in the coming weeks? Peace in Ukraine or war in Venezuela? This morning, as Russian missiles rain down on Ukraine, hitting apartment buildings and targeting the country's power grid, seen in videos circulating online, President Trump is giving Ukraine an ultimatum. Accept a new peace plan by Thanksgiving Day or risk losing U.S. support. We have a way of getting peace. We think we have a way of getting peace. He's going to have to approve it. He'll have to like it, and if he doesn't like it, then, you know, they should just keep fighting, I guess. There was a lot happening in Washington last week, both on the foreign and domestic front. At home, there's a sense that President Trump's power is ebbing. For months, he's opposed the release of the FBI files on the Jeffrey Epstein case. But the day before I met Senator Shaheen, Congress had just voted massively to force the president to release the files. Senator Sheehan played a crucial and controversial role in ending the recent US Government shutdown by finding a compromise with the Trump administration. We talk about that and about her views on the state of the US Economy and Trump's tariff war. But we started with the big foreign policy news of the day. We met in the Hart Senate Office Building just as the first details were emerging of the Trump administration's proposals for Ukraine. Senator Shaheen is a strong supporter of Ukraine, and I suggested to her that the first draft of the plan looked very weighted towards Russia.

[B]

You said it right. Because it's a peace deal with Russia over Ukraine, and that is not the kind of peace deal that I'm going to support. Ukraine has very strong bipartisan support in Congress, and I would imagine that when some of those details continue to come out, there will be a lot of objection to what the President is proposing, because, look, from day one, when he got into office, he has refused to put the kind of pressure on Vladimir Putin that needs to happen if the Russians are going to come to the table in any meaningful way to negotiate. So he's allowed this war to continue because of his failure, the failure of this administration to pressure Putin in ways that would bring them to the table. Months we've been waiting to get the secondary sanctions bill through. Now he's finally endorsed it, but he's endorsed it at the same time. He's come out with this plan that's bogus for the war. He's refused to provide the kind of weapons that Ukraine needs as they're going into another winter, cut off support for their energy grid. We can tick off all kinds of other areas where this administration has refused to provide the kind of support that would end this war.

[A]

You said that there's bipartisan support for Ukraine in the Senate. I'm really interested by that because there was that famous confrontation earlier this year between Zelenskyy and Vance and Trump in the Oval Office, and it didn't seem to me that any Republicans really spoke out about that. So are you sure that if Trump says follow my deal, that the Republican Party won't just do that?

[B]

I don't know. We'll see. I think Senator Wicker and Congressman Rogers were pretty vocal about opposing the withdrawal of troops from Romania. And if we want to send a message to Russia, withdrawing troops from the eastern flank is not the way to do that. So who knows what my Republican colleagues will do. But I can tell you that to date, they have been pretty loud in support of Ukraine.

[A]

And yet, as you say, there's no more American aid flowing to Ukraine since the Trump administration came in.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Any prospect of reversing that, Dean?

[B]

Well, for the first time this year, we got three bills through the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that had strong bipartisan support, one that would sanction companies in China that are supporting Russia's war machine, one that would designate Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism because of their kidnapping of Ukrainian children, and the third that would allow for the use of Russian assets seized in the United States. They again, had strong bipartisan support.

[A]

And Trump will sign them, do you think?

[B]

I think if they pass out of Congress, he will.

[A]

Will they pass out of Congress?

[B]

You have to ask Senator Thune, what's your sense?

[A]

You must have a very close eye on the legislative process, because obviously people in Ukraine will be listening and quite hopeful by the sound of that. Do you reckon it'll happen?

[B]

Well, I'm going to do everything I can to push for it. And I can tell you that Chairman Risch has also indicated that he's going to push to get these bills through the Senate, and then hopefully the House will take them out.

[A]

And what's your sense of the state of US Europe relations? I mean, I think A lot of the Europeans are very nervous ahead of the NATO summit. It seemed to go off okay, big commitments on spending. But do you think they can relax now and that US European relations are going to be a bit more stable now, or do you think that there's still a kind of lurking antagonism within the Trump administration towards some of the European allies?

[B]

Well, I think Secretary General Rutte was very masterful in how he set up the NATO summit. Working with our European allies and getting everybody to agree to the 5% of GDP on defense spending was very important, and it gave President Trump a big win that he can now talk about. But this is a relationship that needs continued work under this administration because as we've seen with tariffs, Donald Trump has put tariffs on our closest allies, whether it's Canada or European allies, and he's let Viktor Orban get a waiver so that he can continue to buy energy from Russia. So this is not an administration that has been at all consistent in how it handles foreign policy.

[A]

And it's not just European allies, obviously, Asian allies. I mean, I know the South Koreans, the Japanese, are slightly reeling at the trade deals they've been forced to sign with Trump. Are you concerned that the kind of whole American alliance system, particularly in Asia, is really under strain now?

[B]

Well, I am, but I think the good news is that our allies in the Indo Pacific still recognize the importance of working with the United States. And there are a variety of initiatives underway, whether it's aukus or work that's ongoing with India to address mutual concerns with the Philippines. So while I think there has been inconsistent messages sent to our allies in the Indo Pacific and in Europe, fortunately they recognize the importance of continuing to work with the United States.

[A]

You've just met Mohammed bin Salman. I mean, there was a period when he was a pariah, in the words of Joe Biden. So what were your feelings about meeting him now and in this context?

[B]

Well, it was Chairman Rish, the chairman, and I'm the ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and we're meeting him in that context of international issues that we have concerns about. And it was an interesting conversation focused mostly on the Middle east and the importance of actions that would help address stability in that region. So we talked a little bit about Gaza and his views of how that moves forward. We talked about Syria because Senator Rish and I are sponsors of the repeal of the Caesar sanctions on Syria and the importance of supporting the Syrian government so that it can provide some opportunities for the Syrian people and stability in the region about the importance of addressing Iran's influence and the decrease in Iranian influence. And then also talked a little bit about Sudan and the horrific conflict that's going on there that's killed so many civilians. And some thoughts about how they could work with the United States to address what's happening in Sudan. I thought that was very interesting because that is still being worked out. I don't think it's appropriate to talk about the specific ideas until they're public.

[A]

But broadly speaking, do you think that Saudi Arabia is playing a positive role in the Middle east now? Because he was a very controversial figure until quite recently, but it now seems to be pretty central to everything America is trying to do in the Middle east, even actually under the Biden administration.

[B]

I do. I think obviously there are areas that we don't agree with the Saudi administration. But I think, well, on some of the human rights concerns, Obviously the murderer, Mr. Khashoggi and I did not raise that, but I did raise concern about women's rights in Saudi Arabia. And he acknowledged that they were working very hard to address those and he thought they were making progress because the.

[A]

President, when he met him, more or less dismissed the idea that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was involved. And he said Khashoggi was a controversial figure. I think he said, do you think we've been too quick to move on from that?

[B]

Well, the history of diplomacy in the United States has been about addressing what's in America's self interest and how we can work with other countries to move forward on particular issues. There are a number of areas where Saudi's interest and American interests overlap, particularly in the Middle East. There are areas where I think we should disagree with the Saudi administration. The fact that our intelligence community said that MBS ordered that murder is one of those areas that I think we need to continue to disagree about.

[A]

Right. And after speaking to him, how hopeful are you that this Gaza deal is going to stick?

[B]

Well, I'm hopeful that it sticks because we don't have much of a backup plan at this point. And the more the countries in the region can engage to support the Palestinians, to work towards a future state for the Palestinian people, the more hopeful I am that there is an opportunity for it to stick. But there are a lot of challenges ahead. How we address the security of Gaza and how they begin to be integrated again with the west bank and what that future looks like are very big challenges and very big questions about the future. And I think it's important for the United States to continue to be engaged in that.

[A]

Because one of the sort of big plays that I think, again, there's a continuity between Biden and Trump on this was to use normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel as the kind of key to all of this. Do you think that's realistic? I mean, at the current situation post Gaza, but also how far should America go to encourage that? Specifically this idea of America offering a security guarantee to Saudi Arabia, is that a good idea?

[B]

Well, we don't have a history of offering those kinds of security guarantees without Congress engaging. And it's not clear to what extent that security guarantee can be relied on in the future, because if it doesn't have support from Congress, it's basically what one administration says, and if the next administration decides they're not going to honor it, then it doesn't provide the security that is anticipated.

[A]

Is that more or less what President Trump's done with Qatar, though? He sort of said, well, I'll guarantee security without it going through.

[B]

It is. But he's actually provided more of a committed guarantee for the Qataris than he has for Saudi, as I understand. My understanding is that it's not quite the same, and understandably so. I mean, Saudi Arabia is a bigger country, has the ability to defend itself in ways that some of the other countries in the Middle east don't.

[A]

More broadly, I think both the Trump and the Biden and even the Obama administration had this ambition that American foreign policy should be less preoccupied by the Middle east and that maybe you should think more about China and so on. That never seems to work out. I mean, do you think it's still a valid concern?

[B]

Well, I think we're seeing some significant changes in the Middle east that offer an opportunity for the future that we haven't had in decades. With the ceasefire in Gaza, which obviously is going to take a lot of support from a lot of countries to continue. The fall of Assad in Syria, the progress that they're making in Lebanon, the decline in Iran's power in the region, the. The opportunity in Iraq. So there is real change happening in the region. And Saudi Arabia has been, I think, important to the United States and has the potential to continue to play a very important role there also with Israel, you know, if Saudi normalizes relationships with Israel, that would be significant in the region.

[A]

And what about Israel itself? Because it used to be uncontentious, bipartisan support for Israel. And I get the impression it's fracturing both on the Republican Party and in your own party, in the Democrats, since you're a Democrat, let me ask you about your party. Firstly, just your impression. How solid or otherwise is support for Israel? And personally, where are you? Are you with the sort of Mamdani wing, which is very critical of Israel, or are you a more traditional supporter?

[B]

Well, I would separate Israel from the Netanyahu government. I think there are real concerns that I have and I think they're shared by many how the Netanyahu government has conducted the war in Gaza and continues to deny humanitarian aid from getting in. So I think that is very real and legitimate. I think there are a lot of people in Israel who share that sentiment.

[A]

Although if you look at Israeli politics, it's hard to see a revival of the Peace Party or even the centrists. I mean, this is a far right government. I don't know what's going to happen in the next elections. But do you feel hopeful that Israel could come back to something that would be more congenial to you?

[B]

Well, we'll see.

[A]

The latest episode of the Next Five podcast is all about the future of private aviation. I speak with adele Mardini of Jetex. 80% of the traveler in a private.

[B]

Jet today is between 40 to 60 years old. We did not see this before COVID.

[A]

And Joe Ben Bevert of Joby Aviation and hydrogen has 100 times the specific energy of the batteries that we fly today, also has three times the specific energy of jet fuel. Listen to the full episode of the Next Five wherever you get your podcasts. What's your reading of where China's at? I mean, people have long said she has told the military to be ready to potentially invade Taiwan by 2027. The and yet American policy under Trump seems kind of ambiguous. He seems to be searching for a deal with Xi. Is that how you see him?

[B]

I do. And I think Xi and China are in a much stronger position than they were during the first Trump administration with respect to the ability to withstand and come back at the United States on the tariffs, for example, where their willingness to cut off our access to their critical minerals forced Trump to come back to the table.

[A]

That does seem to be. I mean, it's early days yet, but it feels like a turning point because it feels like China's got this card now that they can play anytime.

[B]

So I just saw somebody who I know from the first Trump administration who was very engaged in trade negotiations. Not officially he's not part of the administration, but in the work that he's doing now. And his comment to me was this is a different China than during the first Trump administration because they are much stronger and much more able to stand up to the kinds of pressures that the Trump administration is trying to put on. Look, I brought this summary, since this is audio.

[A]

It says it's a report from the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the price of retreat America cedes global leadership to China. Is that your sense of what you're doing?

[B]

This is a report that was done by the minority of the Foreign Relations Committee. Yes. In the wake of the almost total elimination of USAID and our retreat. And it outlines what China has done to come in behind the United States and the inroads that it's making. And, you know, we were talking about the tariffs and trade earlier, but you can look at a whole range of things and see what China is doing to take advantage of this mixed messaging and mixed action on the part of the Trump administration.

[A]

So I was talking to somebody on the Trump supporting side of things who said, look, the Democrats and some Republicans can complain that we're pulling back, but what Trump is doing is trying to avoid a great power competition that could culminate in a war and we have to reach a deal with China. That's just reality. What's your view on that?

[B]

Well, it's hard to make that argument when he's assembled virtually the most firepower in the Caribbean that we've seen in my lifetime, when he's giving Russia a free pass in Ukraine and when he's unwilling to stand up to China and has that kind of mixed messaging. That, to me isn't the way you avoid great power competition. The way you avoid it is by pointing out that we will best them and in that competition. And as I said, giving Putin a free pass in Ukraine just invites further meddling in Europe. We had a call with President Zelensky last week, a number of senators. And one of the things that he started the call with, and it was interesting to me because we heard the same comments in a hearing that we did before the Foreign Relations Committee prior to the NATO summit. And he said Russia is not just gearing up for Ukraine, it's gearing up to go into Europe. And we heard the same sentiments from witnesses, both minority and majority witnesses at our hearing, that what Russia is doing in building this war machine is not just aimed at Ukraine, but they're looking at what else they might do in Europe and threatening NATO countries. And if we look at their incursion into Estonian airspace, if we look at the drones in Poland now, a lot of that has been prescribed to incompetence on the part of Russia, but it certainly indicates they're pushing the outer limits of NATO in ways that threaten further escalation in the future.

[A]

You mentioned this great armada that's turned up in the Caribbean. What's going on? What do you think the Trump administration are doing? And do you think it's conceivable there could be military action against Venezuela?

[B]

Well, I think the president left the door open to that. He's talking about special operations in Venezuela. That says to me he's leaving the door open for action in ways that I think are not in America's interest. There are real questions about the actions that he's taking in the Caribbean. And I come from a state where we've been very hard hit by illegal substances, where we have had very high overdose deaths from fentanyl and from illegal drugs into the United States. So we don't like the cartels any more than anybody else. But we need to make sure that we're acting within international law and that what we're doing does not risk further escalation. That threatens Americans in Latin America, that threatens our men and women in the military in a conflict that, at least to date, I don't think there's public support for.

[A]

And what can you in the Senate do to stop it? If Trump is indeed moving towards some sort of conflict with Venezuela, do you have the power to stop it?

[B]

Well, we need to speak out about it. Unfortunately, there has been very little done on the part of the administration to brief Congress about what their intent is. They finally made available the legal opinion from DoD and from the Justice Department, but they haven't really provided much in the way of briefing for all of the members. They have done a limited briefing for the Armed Services Committee from lower level officials, and then they've done another briefing for members of the House and Senate.

[A]

Leadership, just briefly, to turn towards domestic politics. Do you feel that the tide is turning against Trump? A little. You've had the elections in Virginia, New Jersey, New York, and now this huge vote to release the Epstein files. What's your sense of the current balance of politics?

[B]

Well, I think there's a great deal of concern throughout the country on a number of fronts. I think people are very worried about the cost of everything and thought they had voted for a president who was really going to focus on affordability, the new word that President Trump has learned. And what they're seeing is that grocery prices are higher, rents and mortgages are higher, childcare is higher, costs of power is higher, and tariffs have contributed significantly to that. Every business I have visited in New Hampshire since the tariff regime was put on, has said to me two things. One is the uncertainty has been as difficult as the dollar amount, and the other is their costs are going up and it's affecting their ability to expand, to invest in the future, to add more workers. And for many of the places that I've visited, they've said it doesn't matter how high the tariffs are, the industry that we're in is not coming back. I visited a shoe company. New Hampshire used to have a shoe industry, and the company that I visited now does distribution of shoes, mostly from Europe. He said, I can take you to the cemetery and show you the people who used to work in this industry. It's not going to come back. Coffee. We are not going to grow coffee in the United States, and the prices are just going to keep going up. And, you know, I think under pressure, he finally lowered the tariffs on some of those food products. But that's not going to change, and no amount of tariffs are going to make a difference. I've visited a company that does skin care products over in the western part of New Hampshire. A lot of what they do, what they need for their raw materials, comes from Canada. They said, we don't grow these in the United States and we're not going to. And their costs are going up. So tariffs are a big issue. People are concerned about the immigration crackdown. The people that I've talked to say, yes, if somebody has committed a crime in the United States, then we should send them back. But this wholesale rounding up of people who have been working hard and who people see as their neighbors and people who work for them in home health care or child care or service industries. They understand that America is a country of immigrants, and they don't like the fact that somebody's suddenly saying, we don't want any immigrants in America. Immigrants have contributed to the vitality of this country and the innovation in ways that have been significant. And Americans, I think, don't like it. That's why we see people demonstrating everywhere from North Carolina to Illinois to California about what's going on.

[A]

As you say, there's a lot of anger about it, and a lot of people want confrontation. And there was a confrontation. There was the shutdown. And you played a crucial role in ending the shutdown and saying, okay, we need a deal. That's been controversial. Why did you decide it was time to. Even though you didn't get everything you wanted from the Trump administration to end the shutdown?

[B]

Well, I think it was important. It made the point that There is a disagreement about providing help for people who are seeing their health insurance rates rise significantly. And I think people understand who's trying to do something about those costs and who's been willing to let them rise. Donald Trump, Speaker Johnson, the Republican majorities in the House and Senate. But we were looking at federal workers who had been without paychecks. For two paychecks. I had National Guard and people who work at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard and federal workers in New Hampshire who were beginning to really feel the pain of not getting paid. And on top of that, having to go to work, we had people who couldn't get their food assistance. And so they were worried about how they were going to feed their families. And we were looking at just weeks from Thanksgiving, chaos at the airports, people in food lines. That is not something that anybody wants to see in the United States. So we got some agreement from the Republicans on protecting federal workers that I think was important. We got funding for food assistance for the year, for the WIC program for the year, for veterans, healthcare for the year. And a number of us thought we needed to agree to end the shutdown so that we could actually vote on a bill to address the health insurance cost issue.

[A]

I mean, the process you seem to be describing sounds like normal politics in the sense that people are assessing an administration. They are, in your view, increasingly unhappy with Trump. Things could swing back towards the Democrats. That's how it would happen in a normally functioning system. But are you confident that American democracy is still operating as it used to and that the midterms will work, that there'll be a presidential election that won't be contested? How damaged is American democracy?

[B]

I don't know if you've seen the beginning of the American Revolution that's happened. Well, Ken Burns is a documentary of the American Revolution that just started this week. I'm only on episode three. But one of the things that he points out in that documentary is that the fight for America, and I would argue the fight for democracy is hard. You can't take it for granted. You have to engage in it. I can remember when I was in college, my favorite professor was a political science professor, and this was in the 60s, and we saw people demonstrating in the streets against Vietnam and on behalf of civil rights and women's rights. And hundreds of thousands of people were demonstrating against the war in Vietnam, and yet it was still going on. And he was saying, just remember, when enough people get upset enough about what's going on, then the government will move because democracy will work. If people are engaged. And I think that's what we have to remind people. Is Donald Trump violating what we've seen historically in our democracy? Absolutely. He's not abiding by the rule of law in so many areas, and the courts are beginning to hold him accountable. They just told Texas they can't redraw the maps midterm for electoral districts. Now. Hopefully that will hold up at the Supreme Court. Democracy doesn't always work the way we want it to, but I think it works if we engage in it. And we have to remind people, you got to pay attention. You got to check on what your elected officials are doing. You have to find out who's running for office, whether it's your library trustee or your member of Congress. And you have to make sure that they're doing what you want to see done.

[A]

That was Senator Jean Shaheen speaking to me in Washington and ending this edition of the Rahman Review. Thanks for listening and please join me again next week. The latest episode of the Next Five podcast is all about the future of private aviation. I speak with Adele Mardini of Jetex. 80% of the traveler in a private.

[B]

Jet today is between 40 to 60 years old.

[A]

We did not see this before. COVID and Joe Ben Bevate of Joby aviation. Hydrogen has 100 times the specific energy of the batteries that we fly today. Also, it has three times the specific energy of jet fuel. Listen to the full episode of the Next five wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

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