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The Rachman Review
Trump sets his sights on Gaza property deal
00:27:20
And Iraqi president says his country is finally at peace
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- [00:02]
A
Hello, and welcome to the Rahman Review. I'm Gideon Rahman, chief foreign affairs commentator of the Financial Times. This week's podcast is about the Middle East. My guests are the President of Iraq, Abdul Latif Rashid, and Andrew England, the FT's Middle east editor. President Trump has astonished the Middle east and the world with his proposal that the U.S. will, quote, take over the Gaza Strip. But given the disastrous history of American intervention in the Middle east, is there any chance of Trump's Gaza plan happening? For many Americans and Arabs, the Iraq War remains a bitter memory and an object lesson in the folly of Western intervention in the Middle East. But when I met President Rashid of Iraq a couple of weeks ago, I found he took a different view.
- [00:48]
B
No, we don't think it was a mistake because entire population of Iraq wanted to get rid of the regime. And we seek the help and assistance of international community, including European countries, Britain, France, Germany, and at the same time, United States. As far as we are concerned, getting rid of Saddam sin or overthrowing Saddam sin was absolutely necessary for Iraqi and for the region as well.
- [01:24]
A
We'll be hearing more from the Iraqi President a bit later in the show, but we're starting this week with the Trump proposals on Gaza. I start my conversation with Andrew England by asking him if he thinks Trump's idea has any chance of getting off the ground.
- [01:41]
C
No, you've got to assume not. I mean, it seems completely crazy idea. I mean, firstly, it would be in violation of international law. Just forcibly resettling Gazans, which Trump was talking about even before he announced taking over Gaza, would be in violation of international law and seen by many in the region as ethnic cleansing. It would recall memories of 1948, when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were displaced, when Israel declared independence and there was a war. To Arabs, that was a catastrophe. So just that element is very hard to see. And then if you talk about the US taking over the Palestinian territory, potentially putting US troops on the ground, as Trump said he would if necessary, it brings up echoes of the US's disastrous intervention in Iraq in 2003. Logistically, how would you do it? Who would pay for it? The Arab world, Western allies, The Global south would be up in arms. It just seems absolutely crazy.
- [02:36]
A
Did you pick up any hint that this was in the works?
- [02:40]
C
No, not this. We had picked up hints that after the election, Trump was talking to Arab leaders about the possibility of resettling Palestinians from Gaza, but it wasn't really taking that seriously. I mean, again, you're dealing with Trump, this unpredictable guy who says a lot of Things, what's real, what's not. Does he really understand the nuances of the Middle east, the complexities of the Middle East? Is he always negotiating a deal or thinking about a deal so people didn't really take it seriously? And then in the last couple of weeks, he started talking about the need to clean out Gaza. Horrible language. And again, Arab states rejected that idea. They reject any notion of the forcible displacement of Palestinians. It has so many scars in Arab history. The legacy is so toxic in Arab history of Palestinians being displaced from their land. And essentially, you know, that's the root of the Arab Israeli conflict. It's over land and people being displaced. So there's no way they could countenance it. So obviously we can't dismiss it. But he is a character, a leader who is belligerent, he's a bully. And he does use strange negotiating tactics where he looks to raise the stakes and then perhaps try and use that to broker the kind of deals he wants. I think what was so extraordinary, you know, did this at the White House in front of the world's cameras with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at his side.
- [04:04]
A
What do you think Netanyahu thought? I mean, obviously he had to be polite about it and said, oh, you know, out of the box thinking. But he must think this is crazy even. I mean, he may have his own plans. He certainly has people in his cabinet who would like to annex Gaza or bits of it. But the idea that America would take it over and kind of turn it into a beach resort is bizarre.
- [04:24]
C
Oh, absolutely. But it was kind of interesting. You watched Netanyahu. He was almost trying to hide the smirk on his face. Look, I think from the beginning, Arabs and Palestinians have been concerned that Netanyahu, in his far right government, this is the most extreme government in Israel's history, wanted to make Gaza uninhabitable after Hamas's horrific October 7th attack in 2023. And they would want to push Palestinians across the border into Egypt. Now, the Israeli government would deny that, but that's been the concern. I mean, look, for years there's been talk, Americans and Israelis, you know, Gaza could be Dubai. It's on the Mediterranean coast. It just needs developing this kind of thing. You know, if you're a far right Israeli politician, you don't envisage that, including Palestinians, we have to remember garbage. Gaza is this tiny narrow strip on the Mediterranean. It's one of the most densely populated places in the world. For 14 months, it's been bombed from the land, sea and Air pretty much every day since Hamas's attack on Israel. It's a totally shattered wreck.
- [05:25]
A
So let me then play devil's advocate. So Trump is right when he says it's a totally shattered wreck. And I have heard conservative Arabs say in private, well, maybe, you know, they'd be better off if they moved to Egypt, although that is a completely toxic idea in this sort of Arab discourse. But aren't the alternatives also a bit unreal? I mean, I saw Keir Starmer saying the two state solution. I mean, we've been saying that for 45 years. Do we think the other proposals, the traditional proposals, are really that much more realistic than what Trump's going on about?
- [05:59]
C
I think we have to start and remember that Palestinians, Gazans, they see this territory as their home. These are people who've built their lives there. They've been there for generations. Many are descendants of those that were displaced in 1948. They will want to rebuild. They don't want to be constantly resettled. You know, there's hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees living overseas. And it's one of the most sensitive points of the whole Arab, Israeli conflict because they want the right to go home. Of course, some gardens will want to move and would want to try and build a new life outside of the territory, but there's a hell of a lot of people there who would want to stay. They do see it as the home. Now, it's going to take a humongous effort to get anything close to a two state solution across the line. But then we have to ask ourselves, what are the alternatives? Because, okay, you clear out Gaza, what do you do with the occupied West Bank? What do you tell the Palestinians? What does that do for those who want to pursue a militant ideology against Israel, like Hamas, who say they are fighting for the rights of the people who've lost the land, who justify their attacks, their killings, etc. Because of the occupation, there's no way that you're going to be able to secure the peace that Israel wants, desires justifiably, and that Palestinians want if Palestine. Palestinians are constantly pushed off the land and no one is addressing the root causes of this conflict.
- [07:23]
A
So I'm going to end with the, the most difficult question of all. What do you think's going to happen next?
- [07:27]
C
I think you're going to have a string of Arab leaders and foreign ministers heading to Washington. We know that the Qatari prime minister is going there this week. The Saudi foreign minister is going. King Abdullah of Jordan is going next week. I think they will try and talk sense into Trump. I think Trump will come back at them and say, okay, you need to take responsibility for Gaza. You need to ensure that Hamas never rules again. You need to foot the bill for the reconstruction, destruction in Gaza. Then there's a question of whether there can be any movement on the American plan to have Saudi Arabia normalize relations with Israel, which has always been the grand prize for Netanyahu because of Saudi Arabia's significance in the Muslim world. And for Trump, if he wants a grand bargain for the Middle east, and he talked about this in his first time and he's talked about it again.
- [08:13]
A
This time, and indeed, the Biden people.
- [08:15]
C
Well, exactly, they were pursuing it, they were very close before the October 7th attack. Now, the question is, Mohammed bin Salman, the Saudi Crown Prince and de facto leader, has been very clear in recent months that Saudi Arabia cannot agree to any piece of Israel unless there is the establishment of a Palestinian state. That's not necessarily because Prince Mohammed believes that that's viable or possible, but there's a clear awareness of the outrage that spread across the Arab population, particularly the younger generation, which is his main constituency. Arabs across the region, on social media, watching Al Jazeera, watching the pummeling of Gaza, and that's educated a whole generation about the Palestinian cause, the Palestinian question, occupation. And so pre October 7th, Mohammed bin Salman could have paid less attention to that. Now, I think he and other Arab leaders are very, very conscious of that anger and the risks attached to that, to their own stability and to their own security. So it's going to be very, very hard to see how that deal gets across the line. But you've got to hope that Trump does want some kind of grand bargain. And if he does, then you've got to hope that means pressing Israel to make some serious concessions towards a Palestinian state. Now, with Netanyahu's right wing government, that seems totally impossible. Everything seems a long shot at the moment. And if that fails, or if that doesn't make progress, then the other fear is that Trump could greenlight Israel's annexation of the west bank, which would be another combustible act thrown into the mix.
- [09:52]
A
And then, of course, coming back to Gaza, there is a ceasefire, but the Israelis are already talking about going back to war. Is that actually quite a likely outcome?
- [09:59]
C
Yes, it probably is. And we fought that when the deal was initially inked. I mean, it's a multi phase deal and the first phase was to last for six weeks. And 33 hostages, including women, the elderly and the wounded, are to be released in exchange for Palestinian prisoners. And that was always going to be easy. But the second phase, which is supposed to begin in a couple of weeks, that would require Israeli troops to withdraw from Gaza fully and for discussions on a permanent end to the war. Netanyahu has made clear from the outset that he doesn't want to pull Israeli troops out of Gaza and he doesn't want a permanent end to the war and he wants the right to return to striking Hamas in Gaza. And I think the optics over the last couple of weeks, where you've seen Hamas militants in uniforms, weapons, driving GMCs, four wheel drives, crowds of people around them, it kind of shows that rather than being destroyed, they're still there, they're still present, they still have a military presence. That's had an impact on the Israeli psyche as well. After all this, Hamas is still in Gaza. That puts pressure on Netanyahu, his far right allies in his ruling coalition, including Smotrich, the finance minister, being very clear that if they don't go back to war in the second phase, he will pull out. That would leave Netanyahu with a minority government. So there's already a lot of domestic pressure on Netanyahu to go back to war. And I think now, you know, after yesterday's performance with Trump, he looked pretty confident. And after that, then he was pretty clear that he will go back to war. So, you know, the mediators will hope that they'll get the first phase done, that there may be a gap between the first and the second phase, but they'll continue to try and push for the second phase. But getting Netanyahu to agree to pulling all of the Israeli troops out of Gaza and the permanent ceasefire, which is what Hamas has always demanded, it's going to be very, very tricky. And it becomes more so because there are, you know, less hostages alive. You know, we've seen live hostages coming out over the last couple of weeks, and now, tragically, we're going to see bodies starting to come out.
- [12:02]
A
Do you think Hamas will keep a few hostages back, even some of the live ones, just as a, you know, a kind of disincentive to Netanyahu?
- [12:10]
C
Yeah, well, I mean, after the first phase, they'll be left with the male soldiers, and I'm told that there are those that are alive, so they will have those hostages. It's always been the question, how does Netanyahu weigh this? Does he say we must make concessions to Hamas to get the remaining hostages out, or we will get the hostages out through military force, which until this deal was Agreed. That was the line he took. And he took it despite pretty strong pressure from the hostage families, from people within his own security establishment. It serves his political interest and he would insist that it's through military pressure we'll get them out. So it's pretty bleak.
- [12:46]
A
That was Andrew England of the FT.
- [12:51]
D
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- [13:08]
A
The history of Iraq does at least demonstrate that countries and peoples can rebound from devastating and tragic wars. When I met President Rashid of Iraq a few weeks ago, he began our conversation by emphasizing to me that the idea that his country is still wracked by conflict is now out of date.
- [13:28]
B
We don't have conflicts in Iraq. This is a myth. Yes, we had conflict. We had serious conflicts. Wars, invasion, sanctions, terrorism, the black violence a few years ago.
- [13:46]
D
So the countries at peace as far.
- [13:48]
B
As you're concerned, stability and peace both, and we enjoy it.
- [13:54]
D
So ISIS and so on. Is that problem completely over?
- [13:59]
B
ISIS is not over everywhere, but is over in Iraq. We fought for a number of years against isis and they caused a lot of damage, casualties, killing, destroying. In Iraq and before ISIS, we suffered from internal terrorism. But I'm glad to say this is over and you are all now concentrating on improving services for the people, repairing infrastructures, rebuilding towns and villages and housing projects, caring about education and health. And we have improved our relationship with all our neighboring countries and all the regional countries, and even with the international community.
- [14:53]
D
So if Iraq has finally achieved, as you say, internal peace, but everything's connected in the Middle east, or a lot of things are connected, are you worried that you might get spillover now?
- [15:03]
B
We have recovered in Iraq, but obviously the conflicts and the troubles in Middle east can overspill anyway. In Middle east we are all interconnected in almost everything. The borders in Middle east are only about 100 years ago and they were drawn with a lot of problems in these borders. But I'm glad for Iraq we are going in the right direction. And you have corrected most of the conflicts which we had. Now you have a government, we have regular periodical elections, national election, local elections and representative of the nation. They assemble and they take decisions on legislation.
- [15:55]
D
And how would you characterize your relations with Iran?
- [15:59]
B
Our relations with Iran is very good. We are close neighbors. We have about 1200km of border. We have nationalities on both sides, the same nationalities on Both sides. We have the same religion. We share history, we share culture, we share traits. So our relationship is good. And Iran has helped us when we desperately need it. During dictatorship, we had at least 4 million refugees in Iran. I was in London when Khadja was bombed with gas. Nearly five or six thousand people were killed. Large areas of the country were destroyed. We lost nearly 6,000 villages in Kurdistan. The only country which opened door for us was Iran.
- [16:56]
D
But Iran's relations with the west are terrible.
- [16:59]
B
Not always.
- [17:00]
D
Okay, well, with the US and there's an active debate in America about whether they need to. You have bomb, Iranian nuclear facilities. So how do you maintain a friendly relationship with the United States and with Iran at the same time?
- [17:13]
B
Well, we are independent countries. We can choose our friends in the world and have good communications and good relationship with them.
- [17:22]
D
But are you worried? You know, obviously we've seen the first direct exchange of fire between Iran and Israel and there is now speculation that Trump is at least going to ramp up pressure on Iran.
- [17:33]
B
Well, I hope not, because even Iran has realized that it's better to have good relationship with international community. And what do you make of the.
- [17:42]
D
Fall of the Assad regime in Syria? Is that positive for Iraq or not?
- [17:46]
B
Well, we have always supported the Syrian nation and Syrian population. Syria is very close to Iraq and we have always had good trade, even political relationship with the Syrian people. But unfortunately, Assad created a turmoil in Syria and it had isolated Syria not only himself, entire Syria from international community. Economic situation was bad. Conflict in Syria was happening on a daily basis. And really Syria had good opportunities to correct the path, but he didn't. We advised them many times that he should have a lecture and we should listen to what the opposition and what different groups say in Syria. But unfortunately he didn't. Now we have a new administration in Syria. From what we hear, they express positive policies. But what will happen in reality, we are waiting to see.
- [18:49]
D
And are you worried? Because, I mean, you said the ISIS threats being dealt with in Iraq, but there are a lot of ISIS prisoners.
- [18:55]
B
In Syria, even on the border. We are worried about it. We have sealed our border towards isis. But this is one of our concerns and the other concern which we have about the Syrian president regime is that we want all the sections of Syrian society, Syrian public to participate in new government of Syria.
- [19:19]
D
Are you worried as a Kurd that the Kurds in Syria are going to be squeezed now with the Turkish becoming more powerful and so on?
- [19:26]
B
The worry is there initiations which done by the Kurdish leadership in Syria has been very positive. They have contacted the new administration and they have expressed their willingness to become an active part of Syrian society. The but they have recommended that the government should recognize all the sections of Syrian society and give all the sections of Syrian society their lives.
- [19:56]
D
And as for the north of Iraq, are you concerned that Turkey might become more assertive towards the Kurdish region?
- [20:04]
B
Very much so. They are positively there. And the British forces, they are still part of multinational forces. They know it. This excursion in Iraqi Kurdistan almost on.
- [20:15]
D
Daily basis, is that relatively recent, that they've stepped it up?
- [20:20]
B
No, it has been there for years. Really?
- [20:22]
D
But do you think they may become more ambitious or more aggressive now?
- [20:26]
B
Well, I hope not, but obviously their presence in northern Iraq or Iraqi side is obvious. And now they have started influencing the decision in Syria.
- [20:39]
D
And forgive me if I'm getting the details wrong, but there are residual American forces, I think, still in Iraq. But the plan is for them to leave?
- [20:45]
B
Well, there are parts of multinational forces. They are there on an agreement with the Iraqi government, and this agreement is based off discussions between the two sides, Iraqi government and American government. But their presence and leaving Iraq is based on mutual understanding between the Iraqi government and Americans.
- [21:08]
D
And do you think in the current situation, it's still a good idea for them to leave, given how much instability there is?
- [21:14]
B
Well, we haven't asked them to leave immediately. They have some time to stay in Iraq, and after that it will be reviewed.
- [21:22]
D
And you said Iraq is now at peace. But how stable is the balance between the various groups that were fighting each other, between crudely, the Sunnis, the Shias, the Kurds?
- [21:32]
B
None of them is true. The Iraqi people were fighting terrorism. The Kurds never fought Iraqi people. They were fighting dictatorship. So this, unfortunately has not been very obvious, not very clear for mainly European media.
- [21:49]
D
And do you think another misunderstanding then is that it's often said that, well, one of the ironies of the Iraq war was that Iraq ends up very close to Iran. And some even say, you know, with Iran the most influential country, apart from.
- [22:03]
B
A period when Saddam was in power and Iraqi forces fought Iran and that war went on for nearly eight years, there has always been close relationship between Iran and Iraq. And that close relationship will remain.
- [22:21]
D
Is it an equal relationship?
- [22:23]
B
Yes, because we consider, and we emphasize on that with every regional country, even with the multinational forces, even with the outside forces, even with any delegation or group come to Iraq, that we are independent country and our decision is based on our benefit of the nation. We have a parliament of 330 members which is in Charge of legislation in Iraq. And then we have a government which has again been chosen and affected by the people. And we have the President which is again been chosen by the people.
- [23:03]
D
So that brings me to a question. It's now commonly accepted in the US that the Iraq war was a mistake and it should never have happened.
- [23:10]
B
No, we don't think it was a mistake because entire population of Iraq wanted to get rid of the regime. And we seeked the help and assistance of international community, including European countries, Britain, France, Germany and at the same time United States. As far as we are concerned, getting rid of Saddam scene or overthrowing dam was absolutely necessary for Iraqi and for the region as well. Chaos in the region, unstability in the region and at the same time hurting Iraqi people. There were sanctions on Iraqi people, there was torture among Iraqi peoples. We had large number of mass graves, we had large number of population living outside. And nothing could have been done in Iraq without the authority of the dictatorship. From that point of view, no, I think we are grateful for the help which we receive from Britain, from United States, from other European countries.
- [24:27]
D
So those people in the west who say it was a mistake, let them.
- [24:29]
B
Say it, not me.
- [24:31]
D
Could it have been done better?
- [24:32]
B
I'm sure. I think there were some mistakes after they overthrown us up, not before, after.
- [24:40]
D
We should probably get back to the present day. So the other conflict that's been obsessing everyone in the region is Gaza. What do you think? Firstly of the ceasefire, Are you hopeful.
- [24:51]
B
Is going to last? Well, I'm very glad about a ceasefire, but really the ceasefire unfortunately was too late in Iraq. And I speak for everybody in Iraq, you have fully supported Palestinian rights for creating their own country and for self determinations. And we condemn all the action which has been taken by Netanyahu on Gaza, on west bank, on Lebanon, on many places. I think there was no need for killing so many children, so many women, so many elderly people. It has come to 60,000 and I think the international community is responsible. We should have stopped it. We are talking about civilization, we are talking about human rights, we are talking about self determinations. Yet in front of our eyes, 50, 60, 70,000 people were slaughtered and the entire Gaza buildings, infrastructures, services with okay.
- [25:59]
D
You know, I haven't been to rock, so you told me what I should know. What do you want to tell the outside world?
- [26:04]
B
You should come and visit Iran and see it for yourself. And you can go to different governments and see the amount of work is carried out during last few years and the program of work so is part.
- [26:18]
D
Of the message that you want to get across. The people who still think of Iraq as a zone of conflict are wrong very much. Are you getting a lot of foreign investment here?
- [26:27]
B
Yeah.
- [26:28]
D
Where? Mainly from?
- [26:29]
B
Well, mainly from Gulf states, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, many other countries, European countries. On oil, on large projects, on irrigation, on water supply. You get almost every day, large delegations from European countries, from North America, China, China, of course, they are very much involved.
- [26:58]
D
So do you think, oddly enough, Iraq is now a relatively hopeful store in the Middle East?
- [27:04]
B
I think the entire Middle east will be in a peaceful state if there was an outside interference.
- [27:11]
D
But on the other idea that outside interference in Iraq was a good thing.
- [27:14]
B
Well, we asked for it. That's not interference, that's help.
- [27:23]
A
That was President Rashid of Iraq. Ending this edition of the Rakman Review. You also heard from my colleague Andrew England. Thanks for listening. Who knows what will have happened by next week, but do please tune in.
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