Catherine Herridge on the Future of Journalism

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Catherine Herridge on the Future of Journalism"

Podcast: The Radio Free Hillsdale Hour
Host: Scott Bertram
Guest: Catherine Herridge (Emmy Award-winning Investigative Journalist)
Date: October 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Catherine Herridge, renowned investigative journalist, about the current and future state of journalism, particularly in the national security and intelligence space. Drawing from her decades-long career across legacy and independent media, Herridge offers keen insights on issues of trust, digital transformation, source protection, and the ethics of reporting. The conversation covers the erosion of media credibility, newsroom practices, the rise of independent journalism, and the challenges and opportunities presented by digital platforms and AI.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Post-9/11 Journalism and Its Decline in Accountability

• Turning Point in Reporting: Herridge describes 9/11 as both a personal and professional turning point. Afterwards, the sense of national unity led journalists to become hesitant in holding authorities accountable.
  • Quote [01:56]:
    “I just believe that 9/11... began a very dangerous slide for national security reporting. ...It just seemed difficult for journalists to demand accountability from then the Bush administration. There was always that risk that if you press them, you would be labeled unpatriotic. ...I think some journalists lost their way into really pressing people in authority for explanations about the decisions that were being made.”
    — Catherine Herridge

2. Importance of Subject Expertise in Reporting (The Clinton Email Story)

• Intersection of Politics and National Security: Political reporters covering national security issues often lacked crucial context and knowledge, making them vulnerable to misleading narrative from political operatives.
  • Quote [03:13]:
    “If you work in national security and intelligence... you know that the classified markings don't matter. The intelligence is born classified from the moment the originating agency obtains that information. ...That's an entirely made up term. If you're a political campaign reporter, you're not going to have that depth of knowledge.”
    — Catherine Herridge

3. Curiosity: The Essential Quality for Journalists

• Declining Curiosity: Herridge cites newsroom pressures, time constraints, and alignment with corporate or personal biases as factors stifling deep curiosity among journalists.
  • Quote [05:10]:
    “If they've got a story and it's very consistent with the corporate position of their newsroom, they don't really want to dig all that much further. ...It depends on the circumstance.”
    — Catherine Herridge

4. Independence and Investigative Methods

• Validation and Impact: Herridge’s independent work focuses on stories with substantial impact and thorough validation processes, especially whistleblower claims.
  • Quote [06:08]:
    “If you see one of my investigations on X, you should have total confidence that the information you're seeing has been independently validated. ...That level of research, of validation, lends a whole new level of credibility to the type of work that I'm doing.”
    — Catherine Herridge

5. Source Trust and Authenticity

• Building Trust Over Time: Identity, personal history, and authenticity build long-lasting trust, crucial for securing sensitive sources.
  • Quote [09:06]:
    “I've really gone to the mat for some of these whistleblowers. I've taken a lot of risks to tell their story. ...I think I just bring...an authenticity that may be missing in other reporting. I'm in a military family. ...there really is a very personal level as well.”
    — Catherine Herridge

6. Protecting Sources and Files in a Digital Age

• Seizure of Files by CBS: Herridge recounts CBS’ seizure of her files following termination and its implications for journalistic trust and source protection.
  • Quote [11:47]:
    “When the network of Walter Cronkite seizes your reporting files, it is an attack on investigative journalism. I called it a journalistic rape. That's very strong language. ...such a breach of trust between a journalist and their news organization.”
    — Catherine Herridge
• Broader Repercussions: Pending litigation could set precedent for source protection nationwide.
  • Quote [12:59]:
    “Whatever is decided in this case is going to determine how every journalist in the United States can or cannot protect confidential sources. ...If you don't have a credible pledge of confidentiality to your sources, your investigative toolbox is empty.”
    — Catherine Herridge

7. Editorial Practices in Legacy Media

• Transparency Issues: Criticism of CBS and “60 Minutes” for editing practices perceived as protecting certain politicians and shaping narratives.
  • Quote [14:01]:
    “I think they took an interview which was sort of a mediocre interview, and they made it seem very presidential. And I think that is a foul, a journalistic foul. ...You really should show your work and stand behind the edit. And one of the ways to do that is to fully release the transcripts of the interview.”
    — Catherine Herridge

8. Reactions to Heavy-Handed Editing

• Mandated Unedited Broadcasts: Critique of Face the Nation’s policy to air interviews unedited as an overreaction to previous editing controversies.
  • Quote [16:57]:
    “You edit for clarity and brevity to fit time constraints...the way that you show transparency is...release the entire interview online and the entire transcript. ...I felt the decision was really an overreaction and pretty defeating for that broadcast.”
    — Catherine Herridge

9. Rise of Independent Journalism and Digital Platforms

• Personal Branding & Reach: Explains her move to independence and the power of direct-to-platform publishing, highlighting the Rubio interview's massive viewership.
  • Quote [19:32]:
    “One of the arguments I've always made is that...more people will access that information on a platform like X or on YouTube than they ever will on broadcast television. ...That interview with Secretary Rubio...stands at nearly 10 million engagements or views right now. This is larger than any major network broadcast. Plus, it's a global audience… it’s a much younger audience than what you have on traditional linear television.”
    — Catherine Herridge

10. Media Trust and the Next Generation

• Erosion of Trust: Herridge acknowledges plummeting public trust in media and predicts growth in small digital newsrooms, newsroom consortiums, and independent journalists.
  • Quote [21:24]:
    “We're in the middle of an industrial revolution now in the media marketplace...the person who controls the information really has the ultimate power. I think the future is smaller digital newsrooms...journalists of the future are the journalists who really can move between the platforms.”
    — Catherine Herridge

11. Personality Over Platform

• Viewers Trust Individuals over Networks: The era of trusting networks is shifting to one where personal journalistic brands matter more.
  • Quote [24:23]:
    “I think I'm a case study in that...people would say to me, you know, I don't normally watch CBS News, but I would watch your stories on CBS News or I would find you on a platform because I trust your work or I trust those investigations.”
    — Catherine Herridge

12. Defining New Challenges: AI, Deepfakes, National Security

• AI in Journalism and National Security: Urges journalists to understand AI’s implications, drawing sharp ethical lines around its use in reporting. Highlights the looming issue of autonomous decision-making in military systems.
  • Quote [26:15]:
    “I need to understand how [AI is] going to change not only my work as a journalist...In the national security space, we have to understand that there are different standards between us and our adversaries.”
    — Catherine Herridge
• Deepfakes & Verification: Stresses the escalating difficulty of information verification and the increased importance of reliable, vetted news sources.
  • Quote [27:55]:
    “You have to be so suspect of everything you encounter online...That’s why the credibility of individual journalists or the credibility of these digital newsrooms really comes into play...”
    — Catherine Herridge

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"I called it a journalistic rape. That's very strong language. But it was such a breach of trust between a journalist and their news organization."
— Catherine Herridge, on CBS seizing her files [11:47]

"If you're an investigator and you don't have a credible pledge of confidentiality to your sources, your investigative toolbox is empty."
— Catherine Herridge [12:59]

"You really should show your work and stand behind the edit. And one of the ways to do that is to fully release the transcripts of the interview."
— Catherine Herridge [15:53]

"The power is in the integrity and the authenticity of individual brands."
— Catherine Herridge [24:23]

"On the platforms you're able to follow people who you think are credible sources...they believe you. They know that she… she's not a reporter, she's just reading copies someone gave her."
— Catherine Herridge, recounting a conversation with her son [25:29]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:56] – Post-9/11 journalistic accountability
• [03:13] – Clinton email reporting and lack of expertise
• [05:10] – On curiosity in journalism today
• [06:08] – Independent journalism and stringent validation
• [09:06] – Building trust with sources
• [11:47] – CBS's file seizure and source protection
• [14:01] – Editing controversies at CBS/“60 Minutes”
• [16:57] – Face the Nation’s unedited policy critique
• [19:32] – Independent reach and the Rubio interview
• [21:24] – Erosion of media trust and the path forward
• [24:23] – Viewers trusting journalists over networks
• [26:15] – AI, deepfakes, and the future of national security reporting

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Final Reflections

Catherine Herridge’s conversation is an urgent examination of journalism’s crossroads. She advocates for relentless curiosity, subject matter expertise, unwavering integrity, and the necessity of personal brand trust. As digital threats to information fidelity grow, and legacy institutions grapple with relevancy, Herridge’s evolution from network anchor to independent journalist—her embrace of new platforms, protection of sources, and insistence on transparency—characterizes a path forward for journalism in a rapidly changing era.

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Transcript

[Dr. James Webb]

From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, where the good, the.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

True and the beautiful are taught, nurtured and honored. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners across the country.

[Kathryn Herridge]

One of the arguments I've always made is that in fact, more, more people will access that information on a platform like X than they ever will on broadcast television. That interview with Secretary Rubio, I think it stands at nearly 10 million engagements or views right now. This is larger than any major network broadcast.

[Scott Bertram]

This is your host, Scott Bertram.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

Welcome to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. That was Kathryn Herridge, Emmy award winning investigative journalist. We go in depth with her today in a wide ranging conversation. Also later on in today's program, Dr. James Webb will tell us what's so fun about accounting. But first, we're joined by Kathryn Herridge.

[Scott Bertram]

Emmy winning investigative journalist. You've seen her on Fox, CBS and elsewhere. Also writing and Reporting [e-mail] She's our Pulliam Fellow here on Hillsdale College's campus in fall of 2025, which means she's.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

Here for about a week and a.

[Scott Bertram]

Half teaching our journals and students and giving a public lecture and happy to have her in studio today. Katherine, thanks so much for joining us.

[Kathryn Herridge]

Thanks for having me.

[Scott Bertram]

You have spent decades covering national security, covering intelligence, your public lecture here at Hillsdale, you said something that struck me, which is that 911 was the turning point for the quality of national security reporting here in the US what's happened since then and how do you think Americans have been less informed?

[Kathryn Herridge]

Well, I do believe 911 was a turning point. It was for me personally and professionally. I was in New York on 911 and then I came to Washington in October of 2001 as the first network television correspondent assigned to the homeland security beat. When I was at Fox News, I just believe that 911 there began a very dangerous slide for national security reporting. The country was very united after 9 11. People were galvanized. We were on a wartime footing and it just seemed difficult for journalists to demand accountability. From then the Bush administration, there was always that risk that if you press them, you would be labeled unpatriotic. And there seemed to develop, you know, us versus them. We're on the same team. And I think some journalists lost their way into really pressing people in authority for explanations about the decisions that were being made.

[Scott Bertram]

You outlined somewhat of a cascade from that point and the Clinton, Hillary Clinton email scandal was also a point, an example of where a lack of knowledge was a detriment to covering the story. What did you see that reporters didn't know? Oh, about that story?

[Kathryn Herridge]

I think the Clinton email case in 2016 is a good case study where you had the intersection of campaign or political reporting and then also national security and intelligence reporting. Just to refresh. In 2016, the FBI conducted a criminal investigation into Secretary Clinton's use of a personal server for government business. I think what many reporters who worked the political beat didn't understand was the depth and breadth of the mishandling of classified information on that server. I think that political operatives took advantage of this lack of national security knowledge. For example, they kept telling reporters there was nothing really to see here because the emails weren't marked classified. But if you work in national security and intelligence, as I have for two decades, you know that the classified markings don't matter. The intelligence is born classified from the moment the originating agency obtains that information doesn't matter. The format doesn't matter, whether it's stamp talks, top secret or not. So this was very misleading. Then it became a discussion of it was classified after the fact or retroactively classified. That's an entirely made up term. If you're a political campaign reporter, you're not going to have that depth of knowledge. I think some reporters sadly lacked a genuine curiosity about the classified materials and the standards that were involved. But as someone who was routinely covering this, I understood that they were. The operatives were being very misleading with reporters.

[Scott Bertram]

Lack of curiosity. I speak with our students here at Hillsdale all the time about that perhaps being the most important attribute for a journalist. Being curious, wanting to know what the story is and finding out what that story is. Why do you think that so many journalists today perhaps don't have that quality of curiosity or at least aren't willing to follow where their curiosity wants to take them?

[Kathryn Herridge]

Well, I think it can be multifactorial. Part of it is the market. There's such time pressure now to get a story, to confirm it and to move very quickly. And that just doesn't allow for a lot of deep thinking. Secondly, I think some reporters, if they've got a story and it's very consistent with the corporate position of their newsroom, they don't really want to dig all that much further. And then I think it's less likely they want to dig if it comports with their own personal views. But again, I think it's multifactorial. It depends on the circumstance.

[Scott Bertram]

Katherine Herridge is with us. Emmy winning investigative journalist. I want to talk a bit about how you do what you do covering national security, covering intelligence. That means you're dealing with sensitive information, sometimes classified information too. How do you explain the way you strike the balance between transparency for the public and protecting national security interests?

[Kathryn Herridge]

Well, I work independently now. And when I made the decision to become an independent journalist after CBS News terminated my position, my friends like to say I was fired for committing the crime of journalism. But in any event, I decided to start working independently. And my mission statement was I was going to tell the stories that I couldn't tell before. And then I asked myself, what are the stories that I can tell that will have the most impact? That was really the primary threshold. And then I decided that I would do stories that really merited being told. But many newsrooms were too risk averse to tell those stories. If you see one of my investigations on X, you should have total confidence that the information you're seeing has been independently validated. And what I mean by that is that if I interview a whistleblower and they make an allegation, I then go to a second or a third layer to validate what they're saying. Are there other individuals who will back up their story? But even more important, are there government records that validate the allegations they may be making against individuals or against a government institution? I think that level of research, of validation, lends a whole new level of credibility to the type of work that I'm doing. And I think people have responded to that.

[Scott Bertram]

Your work can take months, maybe even longer to develop. How do you decide initially which ideas are worth pursuing? Or in other words, how does your BS detector work? When you first hear a pitch or a story idea or someone's giving you some information that you might want to follow up on?

[Kathryn Herridge]

I get a lot of information that comes to me. I've been doing this almost 40 years now, so I've had a lot of opportunity to learn from some of the best journalists in, in the country and even overseas. I think you get a good instinct after a while for a story and some stories. I did a CIA whistleblower story that was a story that really I developed over the course of four years. So you have to kind of pick things up, you develop them, you set them aside, you may pick them up a little bit later. And then suddenly it all starts to come together very quickly. I collect records over a long period of time. I just did a recent investigation into the 911 terrorist attacks that exposed for the first time evidence that there was in fact an advance team for the hijackers who arrived here late 1998, early 1999, and they were Saudi government employees. It really changes the whole timeline for 9, 11. That's a story I've been picking up on and off for over a decade.

[Scott Bertram]

Why do people trust you? Meaning sources? Why are people willing to talk to you? Why do they trust you to tell a story?

[Kathryn Herridge]

I think you have to build up a reputation over time. I've been in Washington covering national security since 2001. I don't just talk about the importance of investigative journalism. I don't just talk about whistleblowers. I've really gone to the mat for some of these whistleblowers. I've taken a lot of risks to tell their story. I think there was a lot of risk involved in telling the story of the IRS whistleblowers in the Hunter Biden case. I think that was reporting to CBS's credit that completely changed the dynamic and the public understanding of Hunter Biden, Joe Biden and the laptop. Other stories I think I just bring, how do I put it, an authenticity that may be missing in other reporting. I'm in a military family. I've done a lot of reporting on veterans issues. I'm not just talking about it. I know what it means when people deploy. The whole family is serving. So for me there really is a very personal level as well.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

That's Emmy award winning investigative reporter Kathryn Herridge with us.

[Scott Bertram]

We'll talk more in just a moment.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

First, I want to tell you a great opportunity to learn from Hillsdale College and from the Robertsons. You know the Robertson family from Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College is offering you the very unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives and learn from Hillsdale professor of English and former guest right here on this program, Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience that we call Unashamed Academy. Find it at unashamed4hillsdale.com that's where you enroll unashamed f o r hillsdale.com and experience the Genesis story alongside the Robertsons. Continuing now with Kathryn Herridge, Emmy award winning investigative reporter. You've seen her on CBS. You've seen her on Fox. Now she's [e-mail] Katherine, when you left.

[Scott Bertram]

CBS, CBS seized some of your confidential files. Eventually you were able to retrieve them, but you don't know what happened while they were out of your possession. This is an age as well in which digital surveillance. There are many ways people can find out what you're doing, who you're talking to. What steps can you take? Do you take to protect your sources and even to protect yourself while reporting?

[Kathryn Herridge]

I just wanna say that we did some great work when I was at CBS News. We did some reporting that impacted in a very positive way a million veterans and their families. It was beyond sad to me when they terminated my job and they seized my files because this was a red line that should never be crossed by any newsroom. Fortunately, I had the support of my union, sag, aftra, who really stepped up for journalism. And CBS ultimately returned the files. But I had sources that I'd worked with for years who contacted me. And they were legitimately afraid that they would be exposed. And I couldn't really offer them a lot of assurances. I eventually testified to Congress about this issue, and I said that when the network of Walter Cronkite seizes your reporting files, it is an attack on investigative journalism. I called it a journalistic rape. That's very strong language. But it was such a breach of trust between a journalist and their news organization. I can't really say a lot about how I handle sources. I have litigation that's pending in the D.C. circuit, which is the second highest court in the country. And it's about the protection of confidential sources. What I will say is that this is so much bigger than one journalist and one story and one network. Whatever is decided in this case is going to determine how every journalist in the United States can or cannot protect confidential sources. Because if. If you're an investigator and you don't have a credible pledge of confidentiality to your sources, your investigative toolbox is empty.

[Scott Bertram]

Speaking of cbs, you were critical of the network after leaving. You said there's a question of whether there is a pattern of CBS News editing to make some politicians look better and others worse. In particular, when it comes to Kamala Harris and Joe Biden, does it appear to you that news outlets were intentionally working to in some way cover up Joe Biden's decline while in office.

[Kathryn Herridge]

Well, we're Talking about the 60 Minutes interview with Kamala Harris. I know a number of journalists don't think that there was a foul with that edit. I actually disagree. My training is that the final broadcast segment really should reflect the overall quality of the interview. I don't think that that was the case here, 60 Minutes could have done themselves a big favor by including one of Kamala Harris's word salad responses and then have a single line of track saying, if you found that answer confusing, so did we. And it would have been a signal to the audience that it wasn't such a clear, crisp, concise interview. I think they took an interview which was sort of a mediocre interview, and they made it seem very presidential. And I think that is a foul, a journalistic foul with President Biden. I have a lot of questions about the 60 Minutes interview they conducted in October of 2023. October of 23 is a critical time when there is the terrorist attack, you know, the. The Hamas attack on Israel. This is when he's interviewed by Special Counsel Robert Hur, who was investigating Joe Biden's mishandling of classified information. And Special Counsel Hur concluded that you couldn't prosecute President Biden because of his cognitive decline and his age. Another media outlet who interviewed Joe Biden during that period voluntarily released the entire video and the entire transcript to make the point that there hadn't been any funny business in the edit room. 60 Minutes could do that with their interview, But I think it tells you a lot that they have not volunteer, voluntarily released that information. If you go back and look at that interview online, the correspondent on a couple of occasions describes Joe Biden as tired. This is very odd for a reporter. It's almost like he's excusing the performance. I think the bottom line is that when you are interviewing a major newsmaker like the President of the United States, someone who seeks to be the President of the United States, you really should show your work and stand behind the edit. And one of the ways to do that is to fully release the transcripts of the interview. When I was at CBS News, I interviewed President Trump during the first administration. I insisted that the full transcript be released. I was surprised that this was not standard practice at CBS News.

[Scott Bertram]

Speaking of that, since the incidents you mentioned, there were additional complaints by some about additional edited interviews, particularly on facethe Nation. Now, facethe Nation says that they will not be editing their taped interviews before playback on the show. Is that a win for transparency, and should that be the standard across the network?

[Kathryn Herridge]

Well, I think Face the Nation unfortunately set a trap for themselves. They started to have a track record of heavy handed editing, and it set up a scenario where the management took a very extreme step. I think the step that mandates that every interview has to be aired unedited is a terrible mistake and a disservice to journalism. The poor of an interview is that you edit for clarity and brevity to fit time constraints. And you can continue to do that. And the way that you show transparency is that you can release the entire interview online and the entire transcript. So I felt the decision was really an overreaction and pretty defeating for that broadcast.

[Scott Bertram]

Katherine Hayridge is with us. Emmy award winning investigative journalist. You can find her now@katherine herridgereports.com where you're working independently as an investigative journalist. I don't know what the landscape looked like after you left cbs. I assume you had some options. What was attractive to you about going out on your own, creating a website and telling people, this is my work and my work alone?

[Kathryn Herridge]

Well, I had to really stop and think In February of 2024 what I would do next. That month my job was eliminated. I had my record sealed, seized rather. And I was held in contempt of court for refusing to disclose confidential sources. And I had a couple of offers to work pretty immediately, which I was grateful for, but my instinct was to wait and see. And in fact, a gentleman who's been a judge from time to time on Shark Tank knows a friend of mine, and my friend said, look at her situation. What would you tell her to do? And he said, there's no choice. You really ought to go independent, set up your own shingle. You've got your own brand. This is the moment when the marketplace can make it possible for independent journalism. Don't go backwards, go forwards. And it was a great piece of advice. It was not easy, but we've managed to accomplish that.

[Scott Bertram]

I believe you mentioned in your lecture that the first interview that Marco Rubio gave after becoming Secretary of State was with you for Kathryn Herridge Reports. Not cbs, not abc, not anywhere else, but with an independent journalist. Do you think that the future of the deep investigative journalism, deep interview segments lies more with independent reporters than the traditional legacy media organizations?

[Kathryn Herridge]

Well, I think there's room at the table for everybody. I think it's good to actually still maintain these legacy or corporate voices and then you have these new independent voices, because it's about a diversity of ideas, which I think is what democracy is all about, which is what a free press is all about. I thought it was fantastic that the Secretary of State gave that first interview to us because it sent a very strong signal that this administration was going to take news and information to news consumers in the United States on the platforms where they consume it. And one of the arguments I've always made is that in Fact, more people will access that information on a platform like x or on YouTube than they ever will on broadcast television. That interview with Secretary Rubio, I think it stands at nearly 10 million engagements or views right now. This is larger than any major network broadcast. Plus, it's a global audience. And when you look at the data about the demographics, in fact, it's a much younger audience than what you have on traditional linear television.

[Scott Bertram]

Kathryn Herodge with us. Find her at katharineheridgerports.com I want to talk a bit about the state of the industry you're meeting and teaching young journalists while you're here on Hillsdale College's campus this weekend. They will be entering an industry in which public trust is at an all time low.

[Kathryn Herridge]

Yeah, there's just that Gallup poll recently, less than 30% for the first time.

[Scott Bertram]

Both parties, 1972, 70% said they had a lot or complete confidence in the media. And now it's 70% say none. Or very little confidence in what the media is reporting. This is the big question, right? What can the media do to rebuild that credibility with the American public?

[Kathryn Herridge]

You know, it takes years to build up a relationship of trust and you can really squander it in just one or two different stories. We're in the middle of an industrial revolution now in the media marketplace, and there's a lot of panic among what I would call the traditional gatekeepers of information because the person who controls the information really has the ultimate, the ultimate power. I think the future is smaller digital newsrooms, sort of these news consortiums, so a collective of reporters and then independent journalists as well. You look at what's happening now at CBS with Bari Weiss and the Free Press, I have total confidence that she's going to be able to transform what is really almost like a dinosaur institution now and bring it into this next chapter, which is a very vibrant digital chapter, where I think the journalists of the future are the journalists who really can move between the platforms. So they can write, they can do podcasts, and then they can also do video reporting as well.

[Scott Bertram]

You mentioned Bari Weiss and the Free Press and what's happening with cbs. And you've been inside those walls, I'm curious. We've seen some inside those walls begin to be very wary of Bari Weiss's involvement in CBS News.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

What is it about what she might.

[Scott Bertram]

Do, do you think, that scares them so much?

[Kathryn Herridge]

I just think that it's an institution that doesn't like change. When I was there, I was struck on the one hand that it saw itself as so progressive. But they were always talking about Edward R. Murrow and Walter Cronkite and most of the country was born after they died. They don't even know who they are. And you just can't exist and flourish in a marketplace when you're constantly relying on accomplishments that are decades old. So I think there's just a lot of fear within side CBS about change. When I arrived, I didn't feel embraced by a lot of people, which of course was very disappointing to me. But that didn't stop me from working with a small group. And we really accomplished a lot in terms of legislative change. We won major awards and we really tried to drive the news forward.

[Scott Bertram]

I wonder, as an independent journalist now, do you think it's appropriate or is it an appropriate response from the viewer, the listener perhaps to say, I'm not sure I trust cbs, abc, but that reporter I trust. I think that person is telling me the truth. Is it perhaps a new day and age where those letters matter less than the person who is telling the story?

[Kathryn Herridge]

Oh, I think that's already happened. I think I'm a case study in that people would say to me, you know, I don't normally watch CBS News, but I would watch your stories on CBS News or I would find you on a platform because I trust your work or I trust those investigations, which I thought was very sad because it was a missed opportunity, I think, for myself and that network. But really the power is in the integrity and the authenticity of individual brands. Bari Weiss has a very strong, independent, open minded brand looking at stories through different lenses. I like to think that I have a very authentic brand that I'm trying to get to the facts of a situation. So on the platforms you're able to follow people who you think are credible sources. And I had an experience with one of our kids, he's a teenager and he was watching something on his phone and I don't know if it was TikTok or, but it was a very young, what I would call sort of presenter. And I said to him, so.

[Larry Arne]

Are.

[Kathryn Herridge]

You more willing to watch that because it's someone your own age? And he goes, oh, mom, like more of my friends follow you than her. And I said, really? He said, yeah, because they believe you. They know that she, I mean, she's not a reporter, she's just reading copies someone gave her. I thought, wow, that's so insightful for someone. And I thought, but this generation, they're so fluent, they're such consumers of digital information, they're much more discerning than I am.

[Scott Bertram]

Catherine, as we finish, let's go back to the start and sort of lean on your experience in the national security and intelligence sector. What do you see as perhaps the defining issues to cover in the next decade or so? What should we be tuned into?

[Kathryn Herridge]

You know, I said to myself a few months ago that I've really got to get my arms around AI I know a little bit about it. I don't know nearly enough. I need to understand how that's going to change not only my work as a journalist. I have my own ideas about whether it's okay to use AI to summarize your work like a newsletter. I'm not. I don't think that's okay. Or you have to tell people very specifically, this newsletter was not written by me. It was written by AI. I don't do that. I write my own work. And I think in the national security space, we have to understand that there are different standards between us and our adversaries. For example, will the United States always have a human being in the kill chain, or will it be like some of its adversaries, where the human is taken out of that decision and that decision to pull the trigger, if you will, is left with a machine. So that, I think, is the single greatest issue that in the next five or 10 years, whatever I've got left in this career, I really need to be focused on.

[Scott Bertram]

What about the issue of deep fakes? And I'll just use that as sort of an overarching word. We heard about cheap fakes during the campaign, but the idea that audio can be. Can be just created. A video can be created. I saw this past week surveillance video. There's a video of someone stealing something, but that was just created by AI. Again, as an investigative reporter, how do you begin to sort of sort through all of that even before it gets to the consumer?

[Kathryn Herridge]

You have to be so suspect of everything you encounter online to the point where you can spend more of your time trying to validate or verify things than you really can afford. That's why the credibility of individual journalists or the credibility of these digital newsrooms really comes into play, because most people are worried about things like just paying their bills. Most people are worried about what's going to happen with their kids and their education and their mortgage. They don't have the luxury to be sitting around and identifying, well, that looks real and that doesn't look real. They want to be able to go to a source and say, I have a lot of confidence that what I'M reading here. What I'm hearing here is fairly reliable.

[Scott Bertram]

Kathryn Herridge, Emmy award winning investigative journalist and our Pulliam Fellow here on Hillsdale College's campus in fall of 2025, teaching our young students, giving a public lecture. You can find her [e-mail] Katherine, thanks so much for joining us.

[Kathryn Herridge]

Thank you.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

Up next, Dr. James Webb from Hillsdale's Economic, Business and Accounting Department tells us what's so fun about accounting. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[Mark Levin]

Hello America. I'm thrilled, thrilled to announce my new 10 part podcast series, Liberty and Learning with Mark Levin and Larry Arnold. Join me and my dear friend Dr. Larry Arne, President of Hillsdale College, as we dive deep into the founding principles of our great nation. In these challenging times, understanding our history and the ideals of self government is more crucial than ever. We'll explore the core of America's current crises, the changes in our government and what it means for our lives and liberties. From education to borders, citizenship to the separation of powers, we'll cover it all. Tune into Liberty and Learning with Mark Levin and Larry Arne of Hillsdale College. So subscribe now and join us on this wonderful journey to rediscover the principles that made America the freest, most prosperous nation in history. Don't miss it.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

Listen right now to Liberty and Learning with Mark Levin and Larry [e-mail]. that's podcast hillsdale edu or wherever you find your audio.

[Larry Arne]

Great books, great people, great, great ideas. Learning about these things is critical to being a well educated human being and we can help with the Hillsdale Dialogues. Each week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins radio veteran Hugh Hewitt to discuss topics of enduring relevance. And from time to time they also talk about current events, but always with an eye toward more fundamental truths. And they want you to tune in to a conversation like no other. The Hillsdale Dialogues are posted every Monday on the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at Podcast Hillsdale Hillsdale Edu. That's Podcast Hillsdale Edu or listen via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you find your audio.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

Welcome back to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[Scott Bertram]

I'm Scott Bertram.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

Be sure to follow us on acts4show information and guest updates were at Hillsdale Radio, the podcast network at HCpodcasts. We're joined by Dr. James Webb. He is associate professor of accounting here at Hillsdale College.

[Scott Bertram]

Dr. Webb, thanks for joining us.

[Dr. James Webb]

Hi Scott. Thanks for having me. I'm glad we could finally Meet the listener demand for a discussion of accounting.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

You wouldn't believe the emails, phone calls.

[Scott Bertram]

Happy to be here, you know, pigeon messages that have come in.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

We are talking about the wonderful world of accounting today.

[Scott Bertram]

Now, when most people hear accounting, they're thinking about taxes or spreadsheets. What's the bigger picture that perhaps they're missing? How does accounting help us understand the world around us?

[Dr. James Webb]

That's a good question. Let's start with what the definition is that we give students in the very first class period in our accounting 209 class. So we say accounting is identifying, recording and communicating the economic events of an organization to interested users. So there is a lot of routine there in terms of the recording. But accounting is a language of business. And so what people might miss is there's a lot of dynamic and strategic aspect to accounting. And so there's not a lot of routine bookkeeping now. It's more of a business partner that communicates and partners with executives to operate a business.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

Well, what about sort of the aspects.

[Scott Bertram]

Of accounting that I mean, is it, is it a science? Is it an art detective work? How do you sort of think about what accounting is?

[Dr. James Webb]

You could answer it all three. I think so. I had a professor in undergrad say was more art than science. But let's get to the science first. So there is some routine in order to have comparability across companies. So if you have a transaction that's similar between Google and Apple, they should be recording it the same way. So there are generally accepted accounting standards that accountants have to follow in order to get a clean audit opinion. So you could say that part is science, but there's also a lot of interpretation as you tell the story. So judgments in the estimates for on collectibility of accounts or evaluation of investments. And the biggest part of reporting nowadays is management discussion and analysis. So in the SEC filings for public companies, those are going to be the longest section, so 10 or 15 pages where management would report in their own words what's happening in the business in terms of their profit and strategies going forward. And so there's a lot of art in telling that story besides just putting some objective numbers together. And then on the detective side, you could say that auditing and forensic accounting were now very well known because of Ben Affleck as the accountant in the movies. Be sure you see the sequel as well. So on that aspect, if you like digging into a company and doing a little forensic work, there's a lot of work for that as well.

[Scott Bertram]

So are there some real world examples out there where accountings revealed something surprising or something important.

[Kathryn Herridge]

Sure.

[Dr. James Webb]

I think accounting information comes out every day. And so some of it doesn't get the press, but companies report their earnings, they report bankruptcies. Financial successes is out in the marketplace all the time. So the way that that information comes out is through the accounting function of the firms. There's also a lot of fraud that has come out in the last 20 or 30 years. In my audit class, we have one week that we called fraud week. And so we go over Enron and WorldCom, we talk about Bernie Madoff. There's other examples where there's misuses of funds for nonprofits. So like the Wounded Warrior Project you might have heard, basically took a lot of the donations and had administrative takeout from the uses of that nonprofit where they were supposed to be sending the funds. And so accounting reveals that a lot. And so if anybody's interested in that, a lot of, you know, you could do Google searches. But there's also been a lot of movies that reveals this. Like Enron, one of the movies is the Smartest Guys in the Room. Inside Job, there's been a couple documentaries or biopics of Madoff like with Robert De Niro and Richard Dreyfuss. So a lot of these stories have come out through Hollywood, but you know, that information comes out through the accounting function.

[Scott Bertram]

All these films and yet you have not been cast yet.

[Dr. James Webb]

This is my key that's going to drive that.

[Scott Bertram]

This is the interview that's going to launch you into that strategy.

[Dr. James Webb]

Jwebillsdale.edu. anybody can reach out to me right there.

[Scott Bertram]

Where's the fun in accounting?

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

What part of the work kind of.

[Scott Bertram]

Feels satisfying or exciting?

[Dr. James Webb]

I would say there's two big things. One is problem solving and one is people. So most accountants are not in a basement office under a green lampshade and just doing the work there. So they are working with teams, solving problems, traveling, visiting different clients, and the people side there as well. So if even if you go into an audit or a tax firm and you're dealing with clients, new clients every day, you're being a business partner for them. So if someone, let's say you're in high school or college and you like to do escape rooms and you solve those puzzles, you basically are doing some of that in a business context and then dealing with your clients as well. It's a very. One of the things that people miss is a very people oriented business. So there's a market for people who are very technical and want to just go Sit and solve complex algorithms. But most of the accountants nowadays are dealing with clients and working in teams. And so there's a lot of social aspect that would give a lot of people satisfaction too.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking with Dr. James Webb, Associate professor of accounting here at Hillsdale College, you gave us a few items there, but how would you describe what makes for a good accountant? You know, math skills, attention to detail, people skills. As you just referenced, what would make a good.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

What makes for a good accountant?

[Dr. James Webb]

Yeah, great question. So there is math involved, but it is not calculus, thankfully. So if you can add, subtract, multiply, and divide and do it quickly, you know, high school algebra is sufficient, I think, for the math side. So a good accountant would have intelligence, they would have basic math skills, they would have reasoning skills. Conscientiousness is very important too. So attention to detail, discipline would be very good. So in our accounting program here, those are kind of the things that students typically bring in that we would look for to direct them to the accounting major. And we have about 15 to 20 graduates every single year. They've done very well in the marketplace. And so like right now, it's just unbelievable, the supply and demand imbalance in the accounting field. So all of those students that are going through our accounting program are getting jobs by Christmas of their senior year. Firms are just really struggling in order to get people in the accounting profession because as you just said, there's little reputation of it being boring or different things. And so the students who do have that interest in math and puzzle solving and that intelligence and that discipline, we do direct them to the accounting major. We have about 15 graduates a year. They've done very well in the marketplace. There is a big supply and demand imbalance right now. One of the things that interested students or even people who are just listening to this podcast might know a lot of states, their legislatures are moving away from the 150 hour rule. So for about 20 or 30 years, the accounting function had a rule that in order to be a CPA, you had to have 150 credits. And so that didn't necessarily mean a master's, didn't mean a double major, but we were trying to be a profession comparable to doctors and lawyers. And so we put a high bar in order to be a cpa. And as it played out, different people would be pushed away from the accounting profession because they'd be more marketable, maybe in finance or economics right away after a four year degree. And so a lot of states are rolling that back. And so right now, freshmen or Sophomores who are going through a selection major process would potentially choose accounting, would not need to get that 150 hours and would be eligible to be a CPA and jump into the profession right away upon graduation. So the students that we have at Hillsdale are, when we work with career services, they're getting internships following their junior year. Typically they have their job lined up by Christmas of their senior year and are rolling into the CPA exam doing very well. So we just got a report for 2023. We were eighth in the nation in CPA pass rate. So about 50% is what the CPA pass rate is. Ours was 83%. So the students who are graduating from Hill to are doing a great job passing that exam, getting into the profession and representing the college very well.

[Scott Bertram]

I don't know if there's an interesting story here or not. It's cpa, Certified Public Accountant. My dad is a cpa.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

How did that come about?

[Scott Bertram]

Why is there that sort of licensing available if you want to be a CPA? What is that story?

[Dr. James Webb]

Sure, CPAs do all kinds of things, but one of the things they do is provide audits to public companies. And so if you have Google or gm, they're going to release their financial statements and you're going to have stockholders from all across the world. And how would you know if you are in California, California, that GM and Detroit is actually producing the numbers that they say that they're going to produce. And so in order to have a functioning market, we have auditors who review the financial statements and give a clean opinion or an adverse opinion on that. And so how do you know that someone is qualified in order to do it? So you would have to have a qualified CPA in order to do that. It also provides credibility for tax services or consulting. And so an accounting degree is great. You can do a lot if you don't move forward with the CPA exam. But you know, historically, if you wanted to be a real accountant, you move forward and you get the license and have a little credibility to your name.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking with Dr. James Webb, Associate professor of Accounting here at Hillsdale College, has technology, various apps, or even AI artificial intelligence. Has that made accounting more engaging or more powerful than it used to be?

[Dr. James Webb]

Well, there's a lot of AI talk right now. I use Grok 10 times a day now for fixing my lawnmower or all kinds of information there. And so that is going to change what's happening in accounting. But it's not new that we've been using AI. So for 10 or 20 years now, they've had what you called robot process automation. So the stereotype on accounting would be that you would have a lot of young accountants in a room examining contracts for words of about whether it's an operating lease or a financing lease is very routine, very mundane. And you can think that we have these big international firms who have this need for this labor that they're going to try to make as efficient as possible. So even before GROK and CHAD GPT have come about, they've tried to automate a lot of these programs where if you kind of think what an old accountant would be doing in their first two or three years in the profession that is now streamlined and automated. And so there is still a lot of analysis of that data once it becomes through that automation process. But the old model would be, if you kind of think of how an organization might be laid out, would be a pyramid where the partners would be at the top in a very small section. And then you would have some managers and then you would have this mass of 50 or 122 year olds who would come in and do all this work and they would kind of try to work their way out and they would weed them out as they perform some of this work. And kind of the new model, even before, for some of the last 18 months, AI inventions would be kind of a diamond shape where for the past five or ten years a student who was coming into the profession would kind of have a lot of that routine work automated, and they would be doing more analysis and communication of that information that would have to just be grinded through before. And so it'll be interesting because this AI has definitely taken it a step further how that changes some of the audit and tax functions. You can imagine that a tax firm who would be selling a strategy that they've kind of dug into the tax code and come up with for their clients, GROK might be able to do that very quickly. So some of those things might be automated, but there's still going to be a significant customer relation, personal aspect, and the communication of that information will still.

[Scott Bertram]

Be there after teaching now for a number of years. Do you recognize when your students sort of understand what accounting is all about.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

That light bulb that goes off over.

[Scott Bertram]

Their head when they get what it really is? Sure.

[Dr. James Webb]

So as we said, accounting is the language of business. It does not count as a foreign language credit in our catalog. Unfortunately, I'm trying to make that petition at some point, but for now Greek and Latin are safe, but it is A new language. And so if a student takes accounting one in September, we start from scratch. So they have never heard of accounts or doesn't debits or credits or journal entries. And within the first four weeks we walk all the way to the preparation of the financial statements. And so learning that language for the very first time in the college classroom typically is done in about a month period of time. So a student who is engaged, I always recommend in that first class, the first month is critical because you're learning this language and you're putting it together. But if they can get through that accounting cycle the first time and have everything balanced, like it's a very fun process in order to see them actually put everything together. So that's kind of on the very front end in our first intro class, but then working with our juniors and seniors, they've done an internship after their junior year, they're getting to their senior level courses where we have auditing and upper division cost accounting, advanced accounting. And they are basically little mini CPAs at that point. They've understood the language, they've understood what the why is of accounting, and they're ready to step into that profession. And to see them kind of tighten up those last few courses and step into the CPA exam and then the summer and the fall after they graduate, sending emails back saying, yes, I passed the CPA exam is very great to have them have that success. And so kind of both those things, it's fun to see the freshmen and sophomores click. And then it's fun to see a student who, you know, didn't know anything about any firm or any accounting three or four years ago to become a profession. And it's one of the great things about being a college professor is you see that transformation from 18 to 22, what students are learning and that development and really enjoy that.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

If you could give our listeners one.

[Scott Bertram]

Basic accounting skill, what might that be?

[Dr. James Webb]

I think just as a citizen here, basic financial literacy is pretty important and a lot of people don't have it. So that would be budgeting, understanding taxes, understanding how a mortgage works. If you think of what they teach in high school, they don't really talk about any of that stuff at all. And so stepping into adulthood or potentially starting a small business, understanding how financial statements work or loans or raising capital, all that is very important that you would get from an introductory accounting course. And so 12 or 15 years ago, I filmed a video that was put on YouTube.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

Oh, so you are a movie star.

[Dr. James Webb]

There you go. Well, so my, my YouTube view count for this is about 750,000. If you just go on YouTube and you put in how to read a financial statement, it'll be one of the top two or three things that come up. I show this in class and I just share with them some of the comments that have been put out over the years. And so people who are just doing whatever in life go to YouTube and they put in how to read a financial statement and they're just based on view count. There's a market there where people are trying to learn this, that they've never picked it up anywhere else. And so I do think if you're responsible for your own finances or business finances, just that literacy of understanding what the communication is in terms of the financial statements and how they're put together, even if you're not going to be an accountant, is very important.

[Scott Bertram]

Yeah.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

Dr. James Webb is associate professor of.

[Scott Bertram]

Accounting here at Hillsdale College as we.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

Talk about the wide, wide world of accounting.

[Scott Bertram]

Dr. Webb, thanks so much for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[Dr. James Webb]

Thanks for all your work, Scott. Happy to be here.

[Radio Free Hillsdale Hour Announcer]

That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks thanks to Kathryn Herridge and also James Webb from Hillsdale's Economics, Business and Accounting Department. Remember, you can hear new episodes every week on this station. You also can find extended versions of some of our interviews or listen anytime to the podcast at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube. Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram, and this has been in the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.