How Transparency Weakens the Deep State

Summary

The Radio Free Hillsdale Hour — “How Transparency Weakens the Deep State”

Date: March 7, 2025
Host: Scot Bertram

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Episode Overview

This episode unpacks two major topics:

1. Roman role models and concepts for the modern republic, with Dr. Khalil Habib, focusing on the foundational virtues of the Roman Republic and their applicability for contemporary American civic life.
2. Transparency and reform in the U.S. intelligence community, explored with former CIA officer Kevin Shipp, author of "Twilight of the Shadow: How Transparency Will Kill the Deep State," discussing the agency’s internal culture, overreach, and the need for transparency to check government power.

The episode culminates with an expert discussion on the Harlem Renaissance and James Weldon Johnson, but the main focus is on lessons from Rome and the urgent case for transparency in the intelligence “deep state.”

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I. Roman Virtues and Leadership — Dr. Kahlil Habib (00:42–18:37)

Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. Foundations of Roman Civic Virtue (01:20–03:38)

• Central Argument: Roman civic virtue, vital for their republic's stability, flowed from a deeply religious culture.
  • “...their civic virtue...all flowed from their religion. Actually, from our standards today, you'd almost say Rome was a theocracy.” — Dr. Habib [01:38]
• Ancient sources (Livy, Polybius) stress fear of the gods as the underpinning of Roman law and unity.
  • Notable quote: “All the legislations of ancient peoples rest on the fear of the gods...” — Quoting Juan Cortes, as read by Dr. Habib

B. Exemplary Roman Figures as Role Models (03:38–06:55)

• Cincinnatus: Admired for humility and returning power after a crisis. Direct inspiration for George Washington.
  • “Cincinnatus was elected at least twice and he never abused that power. He was a humble farmer.” — Dr. Habib [04:15]
• Cicero: Symbolizes the rule of law, oratory, and fighting corruption (e.g., Catiline conspiracy).
• Scipio Africanus: Respected for magnanimity after defeating Carthage; strategic but restrained in victory.

C. Mos Maiorum—The Customs of the Ancestors (06:55–08:37)

• The Roman principle of mos maiorum (customs of ancestors) as essential for societal stability; heavily tied to rituals and the veneration of predecessors.
  • “Our customs are rooted in the natural right and natural law traditions. And our institutions, which actually are influenced by Rome in very interesting ways, are also part of our ancestors.” — Dr. Habib [07:14]
• The U.S. Constitution and Declaration are modern equivalents of these formative customs.

D. Checks and Balances in Rome (08:37–09:41)

• Romans had informal checks—Polybius describes a “mixed regime,” not neat compartments like the U.S., but with functional separation.
  • “The Roman checks and balances weren’t as formal as ours. They weren’t structures that were clearly delineated.” — Dr. Habib [08:52]

E. Corruption and Decline—Warnings for Today (09:41–12:40)

• Endless Roman military campaigns eroded civic virtue; soldiers’ loyalties shifted away from Rome to their generals.
• Introduction of foreign philosophies (Epicureanism, Stoicism) eroded the religious-ethical foundation.
  • “...the civil wars...Romans were treating one another the way they were treating enemies outside of Rome.” — Dr. Habib [10:41]

F. Modern Echoes and Civic Duty (12:40–14:30)

• “Moral equivalents of war” in today’s U.S. echo Rome’s divisive late Republic.
• Active, local civic participation was a Roman hallmark; contrasts to current American political disengagement.

G. Nationalization vs. Local Responsibility (14:30–16:56)

• Modern politicians focus more on career ambition than civic duty, neglecting local responsibility.
  • “...politicians are not governing....They’ve become celebrities of a sort. It's a place where you go in and you can become rich, you can become famous, but it doesn't seem that anyone’s really governing.” — Dr. Habib [15:03]

H. Accountability and Whistleblowers (16:05–16:56)

• Machiavelli applauded the practice of accusing politicians—but evidence must be required.
  • “He’s the first, I would say, defender of what we would call whistleblowers. …if you don’t hold politicians accountable, you will soon be destroyed.” — Dr. Habib [16:06]

I. Roman Practices for a Modern Republic (17:11–18:22)

• Elements worth adopting: Stoic philosophy (emphasizing self-control and resilience), infrastructure and public art, accountability, and public criticism of officials.

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II. How Transparency Can Weaken the Deep State — Kevin Shipp (20:19–36:26)

Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. Inside the CIA: Purpose and Deviation (21:07–23:18)

• The CIA’s charter (“National Security Act of 1947”) was vague, allowing for decades of abuse.
• Shipp argues the agency is “unconstitutional,” exerts massive control, and funds off-the-books covert ops (including “drug running and illegal activities” [00:24/22:24]).
  • “The CIA has gotten way out of control. It is now and has always been an unconstitutional agency.” — Kevin Shipp [00:24; 22:24]
• The Agency uses secrecy (e.g., “state secrets privilege”) to protect itself from oversight.

B. What Works & What Breaks (23:18–26:04)

• Good parts: Director of Intelligence, Science and Technology, Administration—80% of CIA staff are “good, patriotic Americans.”
• The National Clandestine Service is the core problem—should be spun off or controlled differently.
  • “...the National Clandestine Service...needs to be removed from CIA and placed as another agency or under the DIA...” — Shipp [23:42]

C. The Whistleblower Experience (26:04–30:58)

• Shipp’s major break occurred after discovering a major security flaw in U.S. embassies worldwide—his findings were suppressed and he faced severe retaliation.
  • “They destroyed my memo three times. They erased it from the headquarters server. They called me on the phone and threatened me to drop it or it would be my career.” — Shipp [27:22]
• Even State Department oversight had to go around the CIA to investigate; the CIA responded with career and personal sabotage.

D. Systemic Retaliation and Silencing (29:23–30:58)

• No effective protections for whistleblowers; threat of legal and personal ruin is routine.
  • “They raised the interest on all my credit union loans. They blocked my Thrift Savings plan retirement funds, which is a felony. So it was 100% retaliation...” — Shipp [29:54]

E. Reform and Path Forward (31:36–33:49)

• Remove clandestine activities from the agency proper; update the charter with a new National Security Act; increase oversight.
  • “There needs to be another national security Act of 2025 created restructuring the CIA and reorienting its mission...” — Shipp [31:36]
• Existing House and Senate oversight committees are ineffective; need for independent, powerful oversight.
  • “As a matter of fact, I sent every single member of the intelligence committees...the evidence that I had gathered on what the CIA had done and they ignored it completely.” — Shipp [32:28]
• Church Committee in the 1970s was sabotaged and even led to political retribution.

F. The Fate of Whistleblowers (34:05–34:58)

• The CIA has a “perfected system” to crush dissent and protect secrets with state secrets privilege.
  • “...they have a perfected system to silence them and put their case away in secrecy.” — Shipp [34:05]

G. Signs of Change (35:13–36:12)

• Some encouraging signals: recent security clearance revocations for former CIA leaders, discussions with the new administration on reforms.
  • “This is the first time in my, certainly my career, I’ve seen real scrutiny begin at the CIA, and I think it is really, really encouraging.” — Shipp [36:12]

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III. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “All legislations of ancient peoples rest on the fear of the gods... this holy fear is more necessary in free states than another.” — Dr. Kahlil Habib quoting Polybius and Juan Cortes [01:38]
• “Cincinnatus was elected at least twice and he never abused that power. He was a humble farmer.” — Dr. Habib [04:15]
• “...politicians are not governing....They’ve become celebrities of a sort.” — Dr. Habib [15:03]
• “The CIA has gotten way out of control. It is now and has always been an unconstitutional agency.” — Kevin Shipp [00:24; 22:24]
• “They destroyed my memo three times. They erased it from the headquarters server. They called me on the phone and threatened me to drop it or it would be my career.” — Shipp [27:22]
• “There needs to be another national security Act of 2025 created restructuring the CIA and reorienting its mission.” — Shipp [31:36]
• “...they have a perfected system to silence them and put their case away in secrecy.” — Shipp [34:05]
• “This is the first time in my, certainly my career, I’ve seen real scrutiny begin at the CIA, and I think it is really, really encouraging.” — Shipp [36:12]

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IV. Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:42–18:37 — Dr. Kahlil Habib on Roman models for modern governance
• 20:19–36:26 — Kevin Shipp on CIA overreach, whistleblowers, and reforms

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V. Tone & Language

Throughout the episode, the conversations were insightful, reflective, and referenced both scholarship and personal experience. Dr. Habib spoke with academic eloquence, drawing connections between ancient sources and today's concerns. Kevin Shipp brought an insider’s urgency and candor to his critique. Both guests conveyed a warning—historical and contemporary—about the decay of civic virtue and the accumulation of unchecked power.

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Summary

The episode draws a vivid line from the virtues and structures of the Roman Republic, as explored by Dr. Khalil Habib, to the modern challenge of accountability in American government. It culminates in a candid account from Kevin Shipp on how a lack of transparency enables a “deep state”—and how genuine reform, built on Roman models of accountability and modern transparency, could help salvage republican self-governance in the U.S.

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For listeners seeking deeper lessons in republican virtue and the urgent perils of government secrecy, this episode is essential, bracing, and full of actionable historical wisdom.

Transcript

[Scott Bertram]

From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught, nurtured and honored, this is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners across the country.

[Kevin Shipp]

The CI has gotten way out of control. It is now and has always been an unconstitutional agency. It controls congressional hearings by withholding documents and testimony from Congress and Senate. It blocks Congress from COVID programs. It's funded a lot of those programs through drug running and illegal activities.

[Scott Bertram]

This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. That was Kevin Shipp, a former CIA officer and anti terrorism expert, also co author of the new book Twilight of the Shadow How Transparency Will Kill the Deep State. We'll talk in depth with Kevin about that book a little bit later on in today's program. First, we're joined by Dr. Kahlil Habib. He is associate professor of politics and Allison and Dorothy Rouse, professor in politics at Hillsdale College. Dr. Habib, thanks for joining us.

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

My pleasure, Scott.

[Scott Bertram]

It's great to be with you talking today about Roman role models for our present future republic. First, we have to go back before we move to the present, of course. How did the Roman ideals of civic virtue influence their republic's stability and their republic's governance?

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

Yeah, that's a tricky question to answer because if you read sources like Machiavelli, who wrote extensively on Rome, or Montesquieu, who also wrote an entire book devoted to Rome, you would think based on their telling, that Rome's success was completely derived from their civic virtue and their institutions. But if you actually go back to Roman sources themselves, like Livy, for instance, you'd see that their civic virtue, which ostensibly means their duty to family and to the state, their sense of gravitas, dignity and their seriousness all flowed from their religion. Actually, from our standards today, you'd almost say Rome was a theocracy. Now, interestingly enough, Scott, just this morning I picked up a book a former graduate student of mine recommended to me. It's called Essays on Catholicism, Liberalism and Socialism. It's written by Juan Cortes, early 1800s. Just this morning I opened up and here is the second page. He writes the following, and it's very relevant to your question. All the legislations of ancient peoples rest on the fear of the gods, Polybius declares, and Polybius was a Greek historian, by the way, who wrote extensively on Rome, declares that this holy fear is more necessary in free states than than another. So religion is crucial for any kind of republic, Numa, he's the second king of Rome. That Rome might be eternal made her the holy city. The Roman among the peoples of antiquity was the greatest precisely because it was the most religious. When Caesar, sorry, one day uttered in the full Senate certain expressions against the existence of the gods, Cato and Cicero at once rose to their feet to accuse the irreverent youth of pronouncing words dangerous to the state. That is, in a nutshell, the source of the Roman ideals of civic virtue and why they were stable. It was because of their religion.

[Scott Bertram]

Who were the key Roman figures considered to be role models in the context of governance, ethics, leadership?

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

Well, there are many, but I'll tell you, the first three that come to my mind would be Cincinnatus, who was very influential in George Washington. Cicero, of course, mentioned in Corinthians Cortes's opening remarks there about Rome and Scipio Africanus, actually. And I like all three for very different reasons.

[Scott Bertram]

Are there some specific reasons that those people embody those principles that might be able to, in fact, inspire some modern leadership?

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Cincinnatus, the reason why he appealed to George Washington, for example, was he was very famous for his humility and his willingness to return to private life after serving as a dictator. Now, I don't want your listeners to misunderstand what that means. A dictator is an actual office. It's a magistrate, and it's given to the most moral, upright citizen in times of crisis. And they're given complete immunity from any kind of persecution of any kind because they're trusted to put out a certain crisis. Cincinnatus was elected at least twice and he never abused that power. He was a humble farmer. He always returned to his farm, demonstrating to all Romans that he was utterly disinterest personal gain. And I think that was why George Washington found him so inspiring. Cicero, of course. I mean, everybody knows Cicero. Cicero plays a major role in what's known as the Catiline Conspiracy, which took place around 63 BC. This was a period of time in Roman history where the nobles had completely become corrupt. The politics of Rome, not that this sounds familiar to us at all, all of the Senate was basically corrupt and bought and brib. You didn't know who they were representing, Rome or their enemies. And what happened in that particular time in Rome was Cicero was able to orate what's now come to be known as the Catiline orations. And they were famous because it was a demonstration of his rhetorical brilliance and his ability to inspire a very weak political body at that time to adhere to the rule of law over any kind of mob justice and any kind of personal vendettas. And that's an incredible achievement. And so I would say Cicero. Now, I also mentioned Scipio Africanus, and I would admit that I know mostly about him from Machiavelli's discourses. But now, he was best known for defeating Hannibal at the Battle of Zama in 202 BC, which ended the Second Punic War. Now, why do I mention him? Well, I think he can also inspire modern Americans and statesmen because, one, he had strategic genius in terms of battle, but more importantly, he always showed magnanimity in victory. He spared, for example, Carthage and refused the demand to destroy it completely. So I think that shows that there was a sensitivity to abusing virtue and abusing power, and that's rare. And so I thought Scipio would definitely make your list.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking with Dr. Khalil Habib from Hillsdale's politics department about Roman role models for our present republic in Rome, there was a concept of mos maiorum, I hope I'm pronouncing correctly, the customs of the ancestors. Can that concept help us to guide our modern society?

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

I believe it does. Let me just take a step back. So Polybius, again, he was mentioned in Cortes's opening remarks there about Rome, was a Greek historian, but he teaches us a lot about Rome. One of the things that he stresses was just how crucial the customs of Rome's ancestors were, not only to their stability, but also to cultivating certain habits or mores, as Tocqueville and Montesquieu like to call them. And those customs were connected to their ancestors by way of funeral processions and their religion. And now in our case, I would say that our customs absolutely do play a role, especially if you, as we do here at Hillsdale College, believe that the Constitution and the Declaration form the greatest statement by our ancestors that really define our customs. Our customs are rooted in the natural right and natural law traditions. And our institutions, which actually are influenced by Rome in very interesting ways, are also part of our ancestors. Our American founders didn't see themselves as merely just colonists or Englishmen. They adopted Roman names, as you know, from the Federalist paper. So they wanted us to see our customs in terms of even Roman customs as well. So they absolutely play a role in our society today.

[Scott Bertram]

Did a Roman system of checks and balances exist? Would they understand that concept? And if so, does it compare? How would it compare to those in contemporary republics?

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

Yeah, that's a great question.

[Scott Bertram]

Do they?

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

I wouldn't say, in fact, not to repeat myself, about Polybius. Polybius mentions in his histories of Rome, Rome's mixed regime. It's the closest you'll ever get to something called the checks and balances. I guess what I'm trying to say is the Roman checks and balances weren't as formal as ours. They weren't structures that were clearly delineated. In fact, there's a very famous part of Polybius history where he says if you were to ask the a middle class person what their regime is, he'd say, oh, well, it's a democracy. If you were to ask a member of the Senate, they'd say, well, it's an aristocracy. And if you ask the councils, they'll say, well, it's obviously a monarchy. And his point being nobody in Rome knew what it was. It was so mixed. So it was an informal kind of check. But it wasn't as formulated as ours, where you have something like a complete independent judiciary, for example.

[Scott Bertram]

We'll pause here and return in just a moment to HEAR More from Dr. Kahlil Habib. In the meantime, we encourage you to check out the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. There you can find older episodes of this program, plus all the great Hillsdale College audio we have available, including the Larry Arn show, the Hillsdale College online courses, Podcast Imprimis, and the Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast. All that available at the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at Podcast hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. Talking with Dr. Khalil Habib, Associate professor of Politics, Allison and Dorothy Rouse, professor in Politics at Hillsdale College, about Roman role models for our present republic. All right, what about the corruption you mentioned earlier? Corruption, the erosion of civic virtue. What role does that play in the decline of the Roman republic? And how might we avoid similar pitfalls?

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

Wow. Well, that's a big one. The corruption and erosion of civic virtue in Rome According to, according to, let's see, I mean, Montesquieu, Machiavelli, Shakespeare, all seem to focus on Rome losing its sense of its virtue when it became an empire. Its endless wars really eroded its civic virtue. So one of the things that Shakespeare brings out and Montesquieu bring out when a nation like Rome begins small, grow, begins as a monarchy, eventually transitions into a small republic, but it's expansive and then becomes on this endless war crusade, it eventually transitions to an empire. And when it does that, several things happen. According to those sources, the military starts to become an entity on its own, it becomes more devoted and loyal to its generals. They become less attached to their country, they spend too much time abroad. And the habits of war end up coming home to Rome. And so in many ways, the civil wars that you see that take place later, Romans were treating one another the way they were treating enemies outside of Rome. So I would say the expansion and the endless military campaigns absolutely destroyed Rome's sense of civic virtue. One other thing, I'll make it really quick. Shakespeare, in his Roman plays, identify something quite interesting, actually. He says that it was the introduction of Greek philosophy at the time of. Of Rome's transition to empire, and specifically Epicureanism and Stoicism, he believed, became sort of these foreign new gods that corrupted the leadership of the Romans. And at that point, they ceased to believe in those very religious deities that we had mentioned earlier that really formed Rome's moral character.

[Scott Bertram]

Present day, we hear occasionally, probably more often than we should, about attacking some sort of subject with, like, the moral equivalent of war. Like, we're to take the philosophy we use in a real war and apply it to climate change or whatever the issue. Issue might be. Is that an echo of what you were just talking about?

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. No, that's a. That's a really good point. And then you can see whatever. The new crusade that's taking place today divides the country, and that's exactly what was happening in Rome.

[Scott Bertram]

How do Roman concepts of citizenship and of civic duty resonate with the responsibilities of citizens in a modern republic, particularly here in the US we talk a lot here about a patriotic education or the responsibilities that you have as you are a citizen of a country. How do those Roman concepts resonate today?

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

I think that's great. You know, unfortunately, we don't have a nationally unified sense of civic education. Rome did. I mean, Rome was absolutely unified as a people until again, that moment when they transitioned. Transitioned into an empire. But I would say that the importance of the civic duties like voting, jury service, community involvement, those were very much Roman ways of life. And one of the things I think we need to return to is a return to civic participation at the local level that was always a part of Rome. And consequently, the Roman authorities always emphasized duty and service to the state. And they did everything they could to encourage citizens to engage actively in a republic's life and its welfare. And I think the danger that I see today in America is that we're asked to do just the opposite. You know, have our bread and circuses and just abnegate all responsibility and Just hand it over to national campaigns. I think this is a mistake.

[Scott Bertram]

So a great example. Perhaps you can speak just briefly on this. Everything being nationalized in the country today. We have just seen these horrific wildfires in California and the abdication of duty, where it appears that the mayor serves as mayor but is more interested in what she might do next, be it Senate or governor. The governor serves as governor, but he's more excited about what might come next, be it president or something else. No one is paying attention to the duties they have locally. They are more interested in what they might do next or how to survey a larger population down the road.

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

That is such an incredible observation. I mean, one of the scariest things you'll ever read is Tocqueville's reflections on America and his famous work, Democracy in America. He already indicated that there's a temptation in the United States for celebrity. And one of the things that I think you're alluding to here is that politicians are not governing. They're not representing the will and the consent of the people. You could see it. They've become celebrities of a sort. It's a place where you go in and you can become rich, you can become famous, but it doesn't seem that anyone's really governing. You've got this massive bureaucratic administrative state that legislates unconstitutionally, and it frees up everybody who's elected from having to do anything. And then when something like this terrible tragedy in California and many of my friends have been impacted by it happens, nobody's taking responsibility. Nobody knows well, I mean, there's some suspicions as to what caused it. There's no water and fire hydrants, for example, but it's a complete abnegation of responsibility. So it's definitely connected to your question earlier about Rome. I think that's the first thing you need to. Citizens need to reclaim accountability.

[Scott Bertram]

There's got to be a demand.

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

There's got to. Absolutely, absolutely. Can I say one last thing on that score? One other thing about Rome's institutions that were crucial that I think we need to bring back. Machiavelli makes a big point about how in ancient Rome, it was perfectly okay to accuse politicians of crimes, but you have to have the goods. You got to have evidence. Otherwise it's calumny. So he's the first, I would say, defender of what we would call whistleblowers. And Machiavelli believed that in a free republic, if you don't hold politicians accountable, you will soon be destroyed because you need to force elected officials to do their job and hold them accountable. And so I think that's one other aspect of ancient Rome that we would be very well to adopt and take seriously.

[Scott Bertram]

Final question for Dr. Khalil Habib from Hillsdale's politics department. As we talk about Roman role models for our present republic, are there particular Roman practices, Roman philosophies that could be beneficial if adapted to our modern government?

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

Yeah, no doubt. I mean, I would say consciousness contrary to Shakespeare, Shakespeare, for whatever reason, doesn't present Stoic philosophy as it emerged in Rome as a good thing. But I know many people who have benefited from it. I mean, it promotes resilience. It stresses ethical living. It focuses on self control. And we live in an era, as you know, where we confuse liberty with license. And so I think that would be an interesting philosophy for Americans. The other thing is, and I mean this somewhat jokingly, the Romans were famous for their sewer systems, their road infrastructure. And as you know, here in Hillsdale, our roads could actually benefit from Roman virtue, prioritizing, of course, just the beauty of infrastructure and how it can also not only provide a real service to the public, but also just beauty. And I think Donald Trump of all people has mentioned the need for beautifying the country with more statues. Dr. Arn is actually very good at this as well. He's emphasizing there's art everywhere on campus and those are all very much Roman ways of life.

[Scott Bertram]

Dr. Kahlil Habib, Associate professor of politics and Alison and Dorothy Rouse, professor in politics at Hillsdale College as we talk about Roman role models for our present republic. Dr. Habib, thanks for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[Dr. Kahlil Habib]

Scott, it's an honor. Anytime. We'd love to do it. Thank you.

[Scott Bertram]

Up next, Kevin Shipp joins us. We'll discuss his recent book, Twilight of the Shadow, How Transparency Will Kill the Deep, Deep State. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[Larry Arne]

Great books, great people, great ideas. Learning about these things is critical to being a well educated human being. And we can help with the Hillsdale dialogue. Each week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins radio veteran Hugh Hewitt to discuss topics of enduring relevance. And from time to time, they also talk about current events, but always with an eye toward more fundamental truths. And they want you to tune in to a conversation like no other. The Hillsdale Dialogues are posted every Monday on the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at podcast hillsdale.edu. that's podcast or listen via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you find your audio.

[Scott Bertram]

This show is a part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to your favorite. You'll get brand new episodes of all your favorite shows sent right to your device and you'll help us know that you're out there listening.

[Kevin Shipp]

Never miss another episode by going to Podcast Hillsdale.

[Scott Bertram]

Edu subscribe.

[Kevin Shipp]

That's Podcast Hillsdale.

[Scott Bertram]

Edu subscribe or click the Follow or Subscribe button on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. We're back on the radio. Free Hillsdale Hour. Scott Bertram. Be sure to follow the show on X. For updated show and guest information. We're hillsdaleradio. We're joined by Kevin Shipp. He's a former CIA and anti terrorism expert, also the author of the new book Twilight of the Shadow How Transparency Will Kill the Deep State, co authored along with Kent Heckenlively. Kevin, thanks so much for joining us.

[Kevin Shipp]

Hey, thanks for having me.

[Scott Bertram]

As we begin our conversation today, give our listeners a sense of your story, your history inside the CIA and government. What's the Kevin Shipp story in a nutshell?

[Kevin Shipp]

Sure. Real quickly. I was a protective agent on the staff of CIA Director William Casey. I was chief of training for the CIA's federal police force. Then I moved on to assistant team leader for a counterterrorism assault team sent over to the Philippines. New People's army was killing a lot of Americans there. I was in the Counterterrorism center teaching tactical firearms overseas. I was in the counter espionage group searching for there was a mole in the CIA. I was in the Special Investigations Unit. I was the team leader for defector protection details and out in the field for the Director of Operations conducting human intelligence. And my defining moment, of course, was the investigation of the CIs vulnerability and embassies that the Agency tried to cover up.

[Scott Bertram]

I want to ask about that as we get a little further into our conversation. You've had so much experience inside the agency. How would you describe what the CIA is in its purest, best form? And how would you describe what the CIA has become today?

[Kevin Shipp]

Well, really, the CIA has been like this since its inception in 1947 under its first director, Alan Dulles. But the CIA has gotten way out of control. It is now and has has always been an unconstitutional agency. It controls congressional hearings by withholding documents and testimony from Congress and Senate. It blocks Congress from COVID programs. It's funded a lot of those programs. And this is in the book Twilight. It's funded a lot of those programs through drug running and illegal activities so that they didn't need congressional approval for the budget. The CIA has surveilled, bugged the Senate during the torture program investigation. It controls the judiciary with the state secrets privilege which it uses to shut, shut down any factual evidentiary case against it. And essentially it is in serious need and has been for decades of serious reform and restructuring.

[Scott Bertram]

We'll talk about that in a little bit as well. I wanted to ask. We're going to discuss a lot of the problems, issues, your ideas for reform, the agency, you spent many years there. What are, if you can, and the good parts of your time in the CIA. What do you look back and think you did a good job? What did you help contribute?

[Kevin Shipp]

Yes, of course, I was on the protective detail of CIA Director William Casey and protected him and the Chief of Stations and Robert Gates, both here in the States and their travel around the world. And that was a very good assignment. I was in charge of training for the entire CIA Federal police force, which was new, had just been created at the time, which is still a fantastic, one of the best, I think, ideas that CI has in, in history, really. So that's, that was a very good thing. We did a lot of noble things. For example, when the new People's army, they had killed a bunch of Americans in Manila, Philippines, gunned down entire police departments. They were surveilling our station chief and agency and embassy personnel. We were sent over there after Counter assault team training to stop the new People's army from doing that. We were successful and we all came back and got a meritorious unit citation for that. I was trained by the Director of Intelligence and Human Collection and Analysis and the di. There are parts of the CI that are really, really fantastic, that do an incredible job. And one of those would be the Director of Intelligence. And as I've said in other interviews, the CIA needs to be restructured. But really simply the National Clandestine Service, part of the CIA, which used to be the Director of Operations, that needs to be removed from CIA and placed as another agency or under the dia because the CIA has abused that so badly. But the other parts of the ehc, Director of Intelligence, for example, Director of Science and Technology, Director of Administration, the communications officers, all that needs to stay. That's what Truman initially intended with the agency. And, and they do a great job. And that that needs to stick around and about. Oh, I'd say 80% of CI employees are good, good patriotic American people that are serving their country. It's just the upper 20%, especially in the National Clandestine Service that has circumvented Congress and has been secretly using our tax dollars to the tune of billions for covert operations that the American people wouldn't approve of. So that's the kind of restructuring that I'm calling for and simply removing the kind of grotesque power of secrecy that the Agency has wielded in the Director of Operations, now the National Clandestine Service, and then restructuring the Agency with the parts that are good and valuable and function well.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking with Kevin Shippe, the co author of Twilight of the Shadow How Transparency Will Kill the Deep State, I wanted to ask about something you wrote about your work as a counter intelligence officer. In the book you said that the most important thing is not the weapons the other side might possess, but their intentions and their psychology. How do you begin to determine those two aspects to what the other side has?

[Kevin Shipp]

Well, that's one of the most difficult. And there's an entire branch in the agency that does psychological profiles on other world leaders, the heads of terrorist organizations, through gathering multi source intelligence to try to get an idea of what the goals are of that nation state or that terrorist group. And that's where the Directorate of Intelligence does such a fantastic job at gathering that information and analyzing and then presenting it to the President. And for example, the President and policymakers make a decision based on that intelligence how to interact and deal with that particular world leader or the head of a terrorist organization. It's very complex, but it's very professionally done.

[Scott Bertram]

Where did your relationship with the CIA begin to sour? How did that happen?

[Kevin Shipp]

Yeah, it was really an eye opener because I was a decorated officer. I was a Category 1 performer and the CIA was my career. And I loved it there. I was doing an international investigation of protecting CIA identities overseas, especially through US Embassies. And I stumbled across during that investigation what looked like a vulnerability in every US Embassy around the world where anybody could go into the open visa section where you apply for a visa, go into the unclassified computer and I actually identify the identities of our covert case officers, Chief of station, some cases, their addresses, and by extension their, their assets. The more investigation I did, the more solid that finding became. So I submitted it to the CIA three times, twice through internal mail, once personally asking them to look into that. They destroyed my memo three times. They erased it from the headquarters server. They called me on the phone and threatened me to drop it or it would be my career. So my report was leaked to the Department of State Senior Inspector General's office. They called me, I briefed them. They went around the world and did a global investig Told me, do not tell the CIA that we're doing this investigation or that you're involved. Stay quiet until you hear from us in three months. And sure enough that three months later, they called back on the secure line and said, we finished our investigation and it's worse than you thought. We need you to come over for a meeting this Friday. So just to summarize quickly, I went over to the meeting and they said, have a seat, Kev. The CIA will be joining us. They proceeded to publicly rebuke the CIA for putting the lives of its covert officers at risk for over 10 years and then covering it, and then told the CIA representative there, GS15 officer, that the results of the investigation were going to be published to the entire intelligence community. So I remember going back to headquarters after that, thinking, well, there goes that career. I was like, I figuratively had a laser dot on my back. I knew eventually they were going to try to ruin my career. And that's exactly what they did.

[Scott Bertram]

You speak in Twilight of the Shadow Government about the lack of protection for whistleblowers, the retaliation against whistleblowers in the CIA. My friend and colleague Mark Moyer here at Hillsdale College has a recent book, Masters of Corruption, which involves the same story about his time in usaid. When you were looking for help, when you were looking for assistance, when you were looking for protection in your activities, what did you get back from those inspectors general?

[Kevin Shipp]

Absolutely nothing. As a matter of fact, I was told by an IG staff member, CIA ig, that. That the director of the CIA, because of the base where my family was gravely exposed to toxins in the house we were put in, I was told by a ciig, one of their senior leaders involved, that that George Tenant, the director, had ordered the CIIG to silence me, ruin my career, and stop any information coming out about this base I was on. And they proceeded basically into what is. And I've done a program, a criminal conspiracy of destroying my documents. They broke it into our house and painted a chemical mycotoxins on the ceiling. And every time they would do something like that, I'd say, no, the CIA would never do that. And then they did. It was like three days at the Condor. That was my attorney's comment. So they raised the interest on all my credit union loans. They blocked my Thrift Savings plan retirement funds, which is a felony. So it was 100% retaliation for that secret investigation. And that went on for about four years.

[Scott Bertram]

Kevin Shipp with us. Twilight of the Shadow Government is his book, How Transparency Will Kill The Deep State written along with co author Kent Heckenlivy. Let's talk a bit about reforms, a path forward. When you mentioned transparency and this book was published before President Trump won re election in November. But certainly you have to be encouraged at least by what's happened in the past couple of weeks since President Trump took office and the amount of transparency and light that has been shown on some of the activities activities of what we call both the administrative state and perhaps some on the deep state as well.

[Kevin Shipp]

Yes, that's very true. And Bobby Kennedy Jr. And I over the past couple years have become friends and we've discussed a lot about reform of the CIA. And essentially, as I mentioned earlier, the National Clandestine Service in the CIA, their kind of unbridled covert power needs to be removed from the agency and put under a more accountable organization, DIA or a separate agency. The National Security act of 1947, which created the CIA and gave very broad description of what the CIA could do, which it ran with and grossly abused. There needs to be another national security Act of 2025 created restructuring the CIA and reorienting its mission more along the lines of what the President and policymakers need. There needs to be better oversight of the CIA. The intelligence committees basically they only meet once a year. They spend most of their time trying to get reelected. So. So they really don't do much scrutiny of the agency at all. As a matter of fact, I sent every single member of the intelligence committees, both of them, the House and Senate, the evidence that I had gathered on what the CIA had done and they ignored it completely. So that there needs to be some reform in the oversight of the CIA and review of their publication. It's called the Publication Classification Review Board. And how that reviews authors documents because they can blackout, redact anything that they want, stop the publication of any book that they want. And of course that's a violation of the First Amendment in an extreme fashion. So there's several things that need to be done. The CIA needs to be restructured without question. You could go through the litany of things that the CIA has been involved in and the coups and the number of deaths people that have died in CIA coups down through the years. The approximate number is about 7 million people have been killed through coups initiated by the CIA. So it has got to be reformed and it should have been reformed a long time ago. The tip of the iceberg was the Church Committee and they ruined Church's career, which they threatened to do. So congressmen and senators today are very hesitant to actually investigate the CIA because the CIA could come back with retribution on them, which is exactly what happened to Frank Church and Otis Pike.

[Scott Bertram]

That leads me to the question, which is how many other people are out there like you? Have others stepped forward in the past few months or years since publication of your book, or as you guys begin to talk each other, perhaps to come forward with similar stories?

[Kevin Shipp]

Well, one of the things I wanted to bring to the public, and I kind of felt it was my duty to do that, is exactly how the CIA destroys whistleblowers. And that's why I, I did a program called where are the Whistleblowers? And I get into detail on how the CIA silences whistleblowers, destroys them and puts them away in, in, in darkness, which is what they tried to do to me. And they use the state secrets privilege to shut down any whistleblower case, and then their career is absolutely ruined, Ruined. And as part of the state secrets privilege, the CIA threatens that whistleblower with criminal penalties if they violate the state secrets privilege, even if they're bringing forth criminal activity or fraud. So there are whistleblowers that have tried to come out on the CIA, but they have a perfected system to silence them and put their case away in secrecy. And that's one of the things that I'm calling out for reform, both in my book and in my speeches.

[Scott Bertram]

Have you heard any response or reaction from the new administration about possible tweaks, possible reforms, even the ones you've suggested, perhaps having a prominent role as we move forward?

[Kevin Shipp]

Yes, I have. I know. Although Bobby Kennedy Jr. Now is, which is fantastic, is now in charge of health and Human services. Of course, he has Trump's ear, and he's as passionate as I am about CIA reform. That's really encouraging. I have been told the administration was inquiring about my help in reform. We'll see how that goes. I'm available to help, but I certainly.

[Scott Bertram]

Don'T want to go back and work.

[Kevin Shipp]

For the government again, tell you that. But. So, yes, the fact that Trump removed the clearances, revoked the clearances of James Clapper and John Brennan, two of the most egregious violators in the CIA in the past, and the other 42 intelligence officers who claimed the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation, he took. He revoked their security clearances. This is. Sometimes I say, pinch me. I think I'm dreaming. This is the first time in my, certainly my career I've seen real scrutiny begin at the CIA, and I think it is really, really encouraging.

[Scott Bertram]

Kevin Shipp is the author of Twilight of the Shadow How Transparency Will Kill the Deep State, co authored with Kent Heckin Lively. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[Kevin Shipp]

Thank you very much. Been a pleasure.

[Scott Bertram]

Up next, Brent Klein from Hillsdale's English Department returns for his series on the Harlem Renaissance. We'll talk about James Weldon. John Johnson, I'm Scott Bertram. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On the new episode of the Larry Arn Show, Hillsdale College President Larry P. Arn sits down with pastor, professor and author Kevin DeYoung for a one on one conversation. A lot of political thinking theory has to start, you know, as a Christian with Jesus saying, give me the coin, whose face is on Caesar's render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to Gods are things that are God's. Well, that gives some kind of to use our language, separation of churches says that it's not identical. And it says not just that you need to give taxes to Caesar because Caesar has a certain realm, but in saying render to God the things that are God's, it says Caesar doesn't have doesn't have everything. Caesar doesn't have control over your life. Listen to this exclusive interview with Kevin DeYoung right now, only available on the Larry Arn Show. Find it on the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu, also at Apple podcasts Spotify and YouTube and subscribe to receive new episodes delivered right to your device. That's Podcast Hillsdale. Edu.

[Larry Arne]

Great books, great people, great ideas. Learning about these things is critical to being a well educated human being. And we can help with the Hillsdale Dialogues. Each week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins radio veteran Hugh Hewitt to discuss topics of enduring relevance. And from time to time they also talk about current events, but always with an eye toward more fundamental truths. And they want you to tune in to a conversation like no other. The Hillsdale Dialogues are posted every Monday on the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at podcast hillsdale.edu. that's podcast hillsdale Edu or listen via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you find your audio.

[Scott Bertram]

Welcome back to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertram. If you'd like to hear more from Kevin Shipp, check out this week's podcast of the program at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you find your audio. We're joined by Dr. Brent Klein. He is associate professor of English here at Hillsdale College. Dr. Klein, thanks for Joining us.

[Dr. Brent Klein]

Thanks for having me again, Scott.

[Scott Bertram]

Continuing our conversation about the Harlem Renaissance literary movement, last, last time we had an overview of it, and this time we get more specific with one of our authors, James Weldon Johnson. What were some of the major influences on James Weldon Johnson's life, his writing? How did they help shape his perspective and his creative output?

[Dr. Brent Klein]

James Weldon Johnson came out of Jacksonville, Florida, and he was one of many writers in the Harlem Renaissance who did not have the experience of white fear, went to an all black school. Johnson was born 1871, don't quote me on that day, but I think 1871. And his father was a, a Freeman and his mother, I believe, was from the Bahamas. And he just, he, he wasn't much like Zora Neale Hurston. He, he wasn't coming of age in an environment where he was worried about what's going to happen on the street corner. Jacksonville was a fairly integrated city before a large fire helped segregate it. So he grows up and so he's growing up not responding as much as other authors who are responding to traumatic personal experiences. So he comes of age and actually gets involved in politics. He, he, he works for Teddy Roosevelt to get elected. And as sort of a reward, he's given a diplomat's job and goes to Nicaragua of all places. And, and while he's there, he, he's thinking about the idea of what it means to be black. This is, this is after W.E.B. du Bois, Souls of Black Folk comes out in 1903, which is an enormously influential text, really, really making black not just black writers, but just black Americans. Think about what it, think self consciously about what it means to be black in the country. And so he writes, he writes an anonymous book called the Autobiography of an Ex Colored man. And he writes this book and basically in Nicaragua, he writes it comes back, like I said, publishes it anonymously. And it's a, something of a satire because there's a, there's a literary genre, genre where a young black man or a young black woman acts selfishly, comes to realize that they are part of a larger race and then dedicates themselves to the, the uplift of the race is the, is the common phrase. And this is something of a satire of that because this man is the autobiography of an X colored man where he's half black, he's half white, and he denies it for a period of time and then he embraces it and then he eventually witnesses a lynching and then that lynching causes him such horror and shame. That he says goodbye to his heritage. And the last line of the book is echoing Jacob and Esau, wondering, have I sold my heritage for a mess of that red, red stuff? And so this is the environment that Johnson is coming out of. He's very intellectually thinking about this idea of what it means to. To be a. A black person. At the same time, his brother went to New York City and started to get involved in writing music. And so James Weldon Johnson begins working in music with his brother. And still what's considered according to the naacp. I mean, this sounds like an odd thing to say, but the black national anthem is Lift Every Voice and Sing. And that was written by James Weldon Johnson and his brother, Rose Bozeman.

[Scott Bertram]

Where do we perhaps see some other influences on James Johnson and his writing?

[Dr. Brent Klein]

Johnson is. I mean, he's influenced by music greatly. He's influenced by the safety, the relatives, I should say, the relative safety of his upbringing. And so he comes to this idea very cerebrally, and this leads him to being involved in NAACP's formation. He becomes the secretary general of the NAACP. And then when the Harlem Renaissance, quote, unquote begins, one of Johnson's most important contributions is lifting up other authors. And I mentioned last time I was here that he creates an anthology of spirituals. And when I teach James Weldon Johnson, it's hard for me to express to students how important this move is, because the students already understand spirituals to be a part of American culture. Sure, but that's not something that would have been universally embraced. There was shame there. There was embarrassment. My people were enslaved. How could you have enslaved them? And this is what his. His narrator in the Autobiography of an Colored man thinks as well. And James Weldon Johnson is trying to create a pride in that past and heritage, and he's doing this in. Among contemporary writers as well. So he's. He's finding authors. He's traveling to different areas of the country. He goes to. To rural Virginia and finds the poet Anne Spencer, who is now one of the canonical authors of the Harlem Renaissance, because he feels like that's his job. My duty is to get these other voices heard as well. So I think I'm rambling some from your initial question, but I mean, one of the important ideas of Johnson in the Harlem Renaissance is he is the writer's writer. He is the writer's editor, perhaps better said, because he's trying to get all these voices in Harlem and sometimes conflicting voices, because the Harlem Renaissance has its rivalries and its factions, and Johnson certainly has his own beliefs about what a writer should do, but he is largely universal in being praised by other writers. I think it's Claude McKay, the great Jamaican poet of the Harlem Renaissance, who says that James Weldon Johnson is the aristocrat of the new Negro. He's the aristocrat of the Harlem Renaissance. That he carries with him the sense of obligation of. Of the rest of the people, both artistically as well as culturally.

[Scott Bertram]

You mentioned his work with the naacp, his advocacy for civil rights. How does that activity help to influence his writing? And how does the writing perhaps help influence his work with the other organizations?

[Dr. Brent Klein]

Yeah. So when you look at Johnson, you would see him aligned with. With W.E.B. du Bois, who is also an important part of the NAACP and a founding member of it, and with the naacp. And I say that this is both a positive and a negative, depending on who you ask, especially during the Harlem Renaissance. Is that part of the idea of the advancement? That is one of the A's in the naacp, the advancement of black Americans, is we need to be represented well. And that means the organization is representing them. That means the crisis. Their important journal is representing them. But that means literary artists have to represent them well. At the same time, that creates a problem for Johnson, because you're going to have these authors in the Harlem Renaissance who say, well, I want to represent reality. I'm not interested in the uplift of the race. I am trying to say that which is true. Johnson is saying as well as Du Bois, yes, fair enough. But there's an obligation. So to take an example, an author wants to write a story in which a black man is violent, especially towards, let's say, a white woman. Johnson might have. I mean, not might. He did have that. We're like, no, don't do that. Don't represent that. Because guess what? That's what they already think about us. That art has this necessarily political side to it, and it's just giving them more ammunition. And so I'm saying that, John, I'm saying two things, maybe speaking out of both sides of my mouth here, that Johnson is the editor of so many writers that he's trying to lift all of these voices, but at the same time, he does have an agenda that coincides with the NAACP of we are worried about the larger state of the race as well as how it's seen. And if you guys are writing a certain way, if you're dancing a certain way, if the music goes as, they're going to think certain things about us. And that creates a real friction in the Harlem Renaissance.

[Scott Bertram]

You mentioned the phrase a little bit earlier, the New Negro. Tell us what that means and how Johnson's concept of it helps to contribute to his writings. And of course, what happens with the rest of the Harlem Renaissance movement, it.

[Dr. Brent Klein]

Really comes out of the idea of that. That growing black bourgeoisie of the late 19th century. And that's such a generic term. I know, but it really is as good as any for shorthand. And. And the. The phrase New Negro, then, is both positive and negative. It's positive in the sense of, no, we are professionals, we are artists. We are contributors to what is WB Du Bois line.

[Kevin Shipp]

We.

[Dr. Brent Klein]

We are contributors to the kingdom of culture, is what he says. And this is the idea of. Of the New Negro. And so it could be a politician, it could be a professional, it could be an artist. But you. You have a sense of yourself, and you have a sense of your other, of everyone else, and then you represent that accordingly. Alan. Elaine Locke. Excuse me, Elaine Locke is the one who. Who really coins the term in 1925 with a book of the same name. But when you say it necessarily has that connotation of, well, what about the people that aren't like that? What about the rural Southern brothers and sisters who do not behave that way, who are illiterate, who are deeply religious, who. What you might call superstitious? Does this include them? And this is very much one of the tugs of the Harlem Renaissance Du Bois idea of the talented 10th, which is you have about a tenth of the black population that needs to uplift the rest of the race. And with that comes ideas of eugenics. And I don't want to get lost in the rabbit trail of eugenics. But this. There are positive eugenics and negative eugenics. Negative eugenics meaning sterilization. We do not want these people having kids. Positive eugenics being, oh, you're a doctor, you're a writer. You guys should have a bunch of kids. That's positive eugenics. And so you have this, well, is the New Negro a part of that idea? And as a term, it then floats within the Harlem Renaissance of, how do you mean that? How do you mean that? And John and Du Bois would be on the side of, no, we mean it in terms of political, cultural respectability.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking with Dr. Brent Klein about James Weldon Johnson and the Harlem Renaissance movement, you told us earlier one of Johnson's greatest responsibilities was to lift up others around him. Are there any particular authors from this Harlem Renaissance movement who perhaps owe their success to what James Weldon Johnson did for them?

[Dr. Brent Klein]

Short Answer all of them. Right. He's so. He's so important as a unifying figure. And again, that doesn't mean everybody loved him, especially with this. This. This idea of respectability that was implicit in some of his writing. But I think even someone like Langston Hughes, who in the late 1920s and 1930s, is going to move against that respectability politics that's implicit in Johnson, still looks at Johnson and says, no, he. He's crucial for. For so. So all of them. You know, Zora Neale Hurston would also sort of chafe at what. What Johnson would demand in art. But I still think looking at him and saying, there is no Harlem Renaissance in this form without him. Because he not only makes the. The anthology of spirituals, he makes an anthology of poetry that basically everyone wants to be published in outside of gene 2. But he's his own case, and he's something of an iconoclast. So I think. Because when you talk about. When you talk about Johnson's writings, you really do need to think of him as an editor. His two most important works, I think, are Autobiography, Next Colored man, which he eventually claims to be the author of, published anonymously. And then in 1977, he writes a book of poems called God's Trombones, in which he's doing a lot of what Hughes is trying to do and as an older man, is like looking at Hughes and saying, oh, this is. This is brilliant. Because the idea behind God's Trombones is he's writing poetry in the register of the Southern black minister. And so he's. He's. He's going through the different story. He goes to the prodigal son. He goes through creation, last judgment, the crucifixion. But he's writing poetry as though it is a black minister speaking it to the. The people. I mean, this, in some ways, I suppose, is contradictory to the idea of a certain respectability. And I don't want to then suggest that Johnson, by saying he has this NAACP sense of respectability that you don't own with pride who you came from. This is a man who. No, we are owning the spirituals. We are owning the ragtime ditties that my brother and I are writing. We are owning this. There is still a sense of responsibility on top of that. And I think because of that sense of ownership, that claiming of almost everything that comes before, whether it's the high culture of the bourgeoisie or it's the low culture of the former slaves who were singing the spiritual. Still, Johnson wants to embrace all of.

[Scott Bertram]

It, Dr. Brent Klein, Associate professor of English at Hillsdale College, as we talk about James Weldon Johnson and the whole Harlem Renaissance. Dr. Klein, thanks so much for joining us on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[Dr. Brent Klein]

Always a pleasure.

[Scott Bertram]

That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to Dr. Khalil Habib from Hillsdale College, Kevin Shipp and Brent Klein. Remember, you can hear new episodes every week on this station. You also can find extended versions of some of our interviews or listen anytime to the podcast. Find it at Podcast Hills or wherever you get your audio. Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram, and this has been the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.