The Radio Free Hillsdale Hour — “How Transparency Weakens the Deep State”

Date: March 7, 2025
Host: Scot Bertram

Episode Overview

This episode unpacks two major topics:

1. Roman role models and concepts for the modern republic, with Dr. Khalil Habib, focusing on the foundational virtues of the Roman Republic and their applicability for contemporary American civic life.
2. Transparency and reform in the U.S. intelligence community, explored with former CIA officer Kevin Shipp, author of "Twilight of the Shadow: How Transparency Will Kill the Deep State," discussing the agency’s internal culture, overreach, and the need for transparency to check government power.

The episode culminates with an expert discussion on the Harlem Renaissance and James Weldon Johnson, but the main focus is on lessons from Rome and the urgent case for transparency in the intelligence “deep state.”

I. Roman Virtues and Leadership — Dr. Kahlil Habib (00:42–18:37)

Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. Foundations of Roman Civic Virtue (01:20–03:38)

• Central Argument: Roman civic virtue, vital for their republic's stability, flowed from a deeply religious culture.
  • “...their civic virtue...all flowed from their religion. Actually, from our standards today, you'd almost say Rome was a theocracy.” — Dr. Habib [01:38]
• Ancient sources (Livy, Polybius) stress fear of the gods as the underpinning of Roman law and unity.
  • Notable quote: “All the legislations of ancient peoples rest on the fear of the gods...” — Quoting Juan Cortes, as read by Dr. Habib

B. Exemplary Roman Figures as Role Models (03:38–06:55)

• Cincinnatus: Admired for humility and returning power after a crisis. Direct inspiration for George Washington.
  • “Cincinnatus was elected at least twice and he never abused that power. He was a humble farmer.” — Dr. Habib [04:15]
• Cicero: Symbolizes the rule of law, oratory, and fighting corruption (e.g., Catiline conspiracy).
• Scipio Africanus: Respected for magnanimity after defeating Carthage; strategic but restrained in victory.

C. Mos Maiorum—The Customs of the Ancestors (06:55–08:37)

• The Roman principle of mos maiorum (customs of ancestors) as essential for societal stability; heavily tied to rituals and the veneration of predecessors.
  • “Our customs are rooted in the natural right and natural law traditions. And our institutions, which actually are influenced by Rome in very interesting ways, are also part of our ancestors.” — Dr. Habib [07:14]
• The U.S. Constitution and Declaration are modern equivalents of these formative customs.

D. Checks and Balances in Rome (08:37–09:41)

• Romans had informal checks—Polybius describes a “mixed regime,” not neat compartments like the U.S., but with functional separation.
  • “The Roman checks and balances weren’t as formal as ours. They weren’t structures that were clearly delineated.” — Dr. Habib [08:52]

E. Corruption and Decline—Warnings for Today (09:41–12:40)

• Endless Roman military campaigns eroded civic virtue; soldiers’ loyalties shifted away from Rome to their generals.
• Introduction of foreign philosophies (Epicureanism, Stoicism) eroded the religious-ethical foundation.
  • “...the civil wars...Romans were treating one another the way they were treating enemies outside of Rome.” — Dr. Habib [10:41]

F. Modern Echoes and Civic Duty (12:40–14:30)

• “Moral equivalents of war” in today’s U.S. echo Rome’s divisive late Republic.
• Active, local civic participation was a Roman hallmark; contrasts to current American political disengagement.

G. Nationalization vs. Local Responsibility (14:30–16:56)

• Modern politicians focus more on career ambition than civic duty, neglecting local responsibility.
  • “...politicians are not governing....They’ve become celebrities of a sort. It's a place where you go in and you can become rich, you can become famous, but it doesn't seem that anyone’s really governing.” — Dr. Habib [15:03]

H. Accountability and Whistleblowers (16:05–16:56)

• Machiavelli applauded the practice of accusing politicians—but evidence must be required.
  • “He’s the first, I would say, defender of what we would call whistleblowers. …if you don’t hold politicians accountable, you will soon be destroyed.” — Dr. Habib [16:06]

I. Roman Practices for a Modern Republic (17:11–18:22)

• Elements worth adopting: Stoic philosophy (emphasizing self-control and resilience), infrastructure and public art, accountability, and public criticism of officials.

II. How Transparency Can Weaken the Deep State — Kevin Shipp (20:19–36:26)

Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. Inside the CIA: Purpose and Deviation (21:07–23:18)

• The CIA’s charter (“National Security Act of 1947”) was vague, allowing for decades of abuse.
• Shipp argues the agency is “unconstitutional,” exerts massive control, and funds off-the-books covert ops (including “drug running and illegal activities” [00:24/22:24]).
  • “The CIA has gotten way out of control. It is now and has always been an unconstitutional agency.” — Kevin Shipp [00:24; 22:24]
• The Agency uses secrecy (e.g., “state secrets privilege”) to protect itself from oversight.

B. What Works & What Breaks (23:18–26:04)

• Good parts: Director of Intelligence, Science and Technology, Administration—80% of CIA staff are “good, patriotic Americans.”
• The National Clandestine Service is the core problem—should be spun off or controlled differently.
  • “...the National Clandestine Service...needs to be removed from CIA and placed as another agency or under the DIA...” — Shipp [23:42]

C. The Whistleblower Experience (26:04–30:58)

• Shipp’s major break occurred after discovering a major security flaw in U.S. embassies worldwide—his findings were suppressed and he faced severe retaliation.
  • “They destroyed my memo three times. They erased it from the headquarters server. They called me on the phone and threatened me to drop it or it would be my career.” — Shipp [27:22]
• Even State Department oversight had to go around the CIA to investigate; the CIA responded with career and personal sabotage.

D. Systemic Retaliation and Silencing (29:23–30:58)

• No effective protections for whistleblowers; threat of legal and personal ruin is routine.
  • “They raised the interest on all my credit union loans. They blocked my Thrift Savings plan retirement funds, which is a felony. So it was 100% retaliation...” — Shipp [29:54]

E. Reform and Path Forward (31:36–33:49)

• Remove clandestine activities from the agency proper; update the charter with a new National Security Act; increase oversight.
  • “There needs to be another national security Act of 2025 created restructuring the CIA and reorienting its mission...” — Shipp [31:36]
• Existing House and Senate oversight committees are ineffective; need for independent, powerful oversight.
  • “As a matter of fact, I sent every single member of the intelligence committees...the evidence that I had gathered on what the CIA had done and they ignored it completely.” — Shipp [32:28]
• Church Committee in the 1970s was sabotaged and even led to political retribution.

F. The Fate of Whistleblowers (34:05–34:58)

• The CIA has a “perfected system” to crush dissent and protect secrets with state secrets privilege.
  • “...they have a perfected system to silence them and put their case away in secrecy.” — Shipp [34:05]

G. Signs of Change (35:13–36:12)

• Some encouraging signals: recent security clearance revocations for former CIA leaders, discussions with the new administration on reforms.
  • “This is the first time in my, certainly my career, I’ve seen real scrutiny begin at the CIA, and I think it is really, really encouraging.” — Shipp [36:12]

III. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “All legislations of ancient peoples rest on the fear of the gods... this holy fear is more necessary in free states than another.” — Dr. Kahlil Habib quoting Polybius and Juan Cortes [01:38]
• “Cincinnatus was elected at least twice and he never abused that power. He was a humble farmer.” — Dr. Habib [04:15]
• “...politicians are not governing....They’ve become celebrities of a sort.” — Dr. Habib [15:03]
• “The CIA has gotten way out of control. It is now and has always been an unconstitutional agency.” — Kevin Shipp [00:24; 22:24]
• “They destroyed my memo three times. They erased it from the headquarters server. They called me on the phone and threatened me to drop it or it would be my career.” — Shipp [27:22]
• “There needs to be another national security Act of 2025 created restructuring the CIA and reorienting its mission.” — Shipp [31:36]
• “...they have a perfected system to silence them and put their case away in secrecy.” — Shipp [34:05]
• “This is the first time in my, certainly my career, I’ve seen real scrutiny begin at the CIA, and I think it is really, really encouraging.” — Shipp [36:12]

IV. Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:42–18:37 — Dr. Kahlil Habib on Roman models for modern governance
• 20:19–36:26 — Kevin Shipp on CIA overreach, whistleblowers, and reforms

V. Tone & Language

Throughout the episode, the conversations were insightful, reflective, and referenced both scholarship and personal experience. Dr. Habib spoke with academic eloquence, drawing connections between ancient sources and today's concerns. Kevin Shipp brought an insider’s urgency and candor to his critique. Both guests conveyed a warning—historical and contemporary—about the decay of civic virtue and the accumulation of unchecked power.

Summary

The episode draws a vivid line from the virtues and structures of the Roman Republic, as explored by Dr. Khalil Habib, to the modern challenge of accountability in American government. It culminates in a candid account from Kevin Shipp on how a lack of transparency enables a “deep state”—and how genuine reform, built on Roman models of accountability and modern transparency, could help salvage republican self-governance in the U.S.

For listeners seeking deeper lessons in republican virtue and the urgent perils of government secrecy, this episode is essential, bracing, and full of actionable historical wisdom.