Journalism “The Chicago Way”

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Radio Free Hillsdale Hour

Episode: Journalism “The Chicago Way”
Date: March 27, 2026
Host: Scott Bertram
Guests: John Kass (journalist, Chicago Way podcast), Dr. Matt Meehan (Hillsdale in D.C.)

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Episode Overview

This episode features legendary Chicago journalist John Kass, discussing his long career reporting on Chicago politics, the meaning of “the Chicago Way”, the decline of trust in mainstream media, and the rise of independent journalism. Later in the episode, Dr. Matt Meehan joins to discuss the deeper societal purpose of children in America, including the role of families, civic bonds, and the consequences of declining birth rates.

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Segment 1: John Kass on “The Chicago Way” & Chicago Journalism

The Meaning of “The Chicago Way”

• Origin: From The Untouchables film, describing ruthless, retaliatory Chicago-style politics.
  • Quote (John Kass, 01:59):
    “He takes a knife, you grab a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago Way. And it is true, that is the Chicago Way.”
• Chicago’s Defining Feature: Ruthlessness in politics.
  • Quote (Kass, 02:45):
    “Yes, the Chicago Way, which is the name of the podcast, is about ruthlessness and that's the politics of Chicago.”

Departure from the Chicago Tribune

• Summary of Kass’s Exit (03:07–07:24):
  • Triggered by a critical column about George Soros and “decaceration” policies.
  • Faced pressure from the Tribune’s union, accused of defamation, and asked to publicly apologize.
    • Quote (Kass, 04:55):
      “They wanted me to stand before them and apologize. And my only response to an editor was, I'm not apologizing.”
  • Demoted from page two; Tribune labeled readers as “not sophisticated enough” to distinguish news from opinion.
    • Quote (Kass, 06:00):
      “My big fat Greek head is a picture right above... you might want to think of that as my opinion... but they didn't like my opinion.”

Commentary on Media Trust and Independent Journalism

• Main Insight (07:24–10:19):
  • The decline began with media’s uncritical support of Barack Obama.
  • Media shifted from reporting to hagiography and propaganda.
  • Public distrust stems from replacing facts with ideology, especially during “Russiagate” reporting.
    • Quote (Kass, 09:05):
      “They know that there are people in the media who will supplant their opinion and leftist ideology or orthodoxy in place of facts.”
    • Quote (Kass, 09:56):
      “The New York Times and the Washington Post each received Pulitzer Prizes... and it’s not worth anything now. But that's what happened and that's why people lost faith.”
  • Value of independent journalism: Liberty and truth, freedom from editorial oversight.
    • Quote (Kass, 07:08):
      “I don't have any insect leaning over my shoulder telling me what to think or what to say.”

[End of journalism segment, 10:19]

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Segment 2: Chicago Politics – Power Shifts & Social Consequences

Political Transition in Chicago (11:40–15:33)

• End of Daily/Madigan Era:
  • With their downfall, a power vacuum allowed the Chicago Teachers Union to become dominant.
    • Quote (Kass, 12:14):
      “They are the Democratic Party now. They decide whether you're going to succeed as a candidate or not.”
    • History Note (12:32):
      Cites FDR’s warning about public sector unions.
• Mayoral Changes:
  • After Rahm Emanuel (“the Rom Father”), came Lori Lightfoot (described as not competent), then Brandon Johnson (former teachers’ union member, described as a socialist).
    • Quote (Kass, 13:57):
      “Once you get socialism and that falls apart and brings anarchy with it... a strong man must appear. And I don't know if there's any such strong man because the debt of Chicago is severe.”
• Urban Consequences:
  • Cites public safety breakdown, rise in crime, failure to incarcerate violent offenders, personal story of public transit violence.
    • Quote (Kass, 14:35):
      “Who takes the L, the public transportation. Who takes is the poorest of us... they’re subject to the barbarism of the Democratic Party that does not incarcerate the violent.”

Distance Between Chicagoans and Ruling Class (15:33–16:25)

• Despite political shifts, Kass maintains Chicago remains a blue-collar, common-sense city.
  • Quote (Kass, 15:52):
    “The people of Chicago are not, are not intimidated by fancy pants talk... you talk like Bill Buckley, you're not going to get elected in Chicago.”

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Segment 3: Reflections, Columns, and Hillsdale’s Role

Kass’s Memorable Columns (16:25–19:55)

• Scott Bertram’s Favorite:
  • Sam Alito’s confirmation hearing: Emotional moment with Alito’s wife.
• Kass’s Own Favorites:
  • First column about his father, focusing on immigrant resilience and pride (17:53).
  • Annual Christmas Eve column, “O Holy Night,” prayers for parents and children.
    • Quote (Kass, 19:05):
      “It is taken from the petitions of the Greek Orthodox liturgy, you know, Kyrie Eleison... Lord have mercy. It runs throughout.”

On Hillsdale College (19:55–20:36)

• Compares Hillsdale to medieval sanctuaries of learning, prays for Victor Davis Hanson’s health.
  • Quote (Kass, 20:19):
    “In the Dark Ages, there were such places with high walls that students can come to safely and study. That's what I see is Hillsdale.”

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Segment 4: The Purpose of Children in American Society (Dr. Matt Meehan)

The Moral and Civic Value of Children (23:51–40:33)

George Washington’s Parental Love (24:18)

• Opens with Washington’s grief for his adopted stepdaughter as a model of the adoptive power and reach of familial love.
  • Quote (Meehan, 24:18):
    “He actually adopted Patsy Custis and not just in law, but in heart... and when she passed away... he was grievously wounded by the loss.”
• Argues that family love expands into community, forming the basis of republican civic bonds.

Critique of Economic Thinking About Children (25:34)

• Rebukes reducing children to future labor or taxpayers.
  • Quote (Meehan, 25:50):
    “It's just looking at them as if they were already adults. But that's like half the show... once you expand... you start to see, oh, actually the value, the importance, the benefits of children go far beyond sort of, you know, the economic man.”

Children as Civic Glue (27:13)

• The “complex of charity”:
  • Children create a web of familial and civic relationships, building gratitude and duty that sustain a republic.
    • Quote (Meehan, 27:29):
      “When a child enters the world, relationships are instantly made... and these relationships foster a sense of givenness and gratitude, which then is the engine for why you would give back.”
• Modern society has lost this understanding and articulation.

Education and Preparing Future Citizens & Families (32:01)

• Advocates for liberal arts education that cultivates both arts of liberty and law, for both transcendent and civic formation.
  • Quote (Meehan, 32:13):
    “There has to be a transcendent view to education that is open to the immortal soul and an afterlife... then there has to be a very serious civic component. Rhetoric, communication, persuasion, through speech to the truth.”

Declining Birth Rates: Societal Meaning and Risks (33:40)

• Argues that treating declining births as merely an economic crisis misses the deeper social and existential crisis.
  • Quote (Meehan, 34:07):
    “Because there is no need to propagate the way of life into the next generation, there is a kind of sad carelessness that sets in...”
• Parent-child bonds inoculate against utopianism; a society of single adults is more prone to radical experiments.

The Limits of State Incentives (38:04)

• Government payments or benefits provide only marginal changes to birth rates.
  • Quote (Meehan, 38:32):
    “The idea that it will actually sort of solve the birth dearth problem... I don't think so. I think what people need to be paid in is not just physical benefits or material benefits, but honor. Right. The family must be honored again.”
• Emphasizes the need to rebuild civilizational confidence and virtues, including willingness to suffer for good.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “The Chicago Way is taken from a dialogue... He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago Way.” – John Kass, 01:59
• “They wanted me to stand before them and apologize. And my only response... I'm not apologizing.” – Kass, 04:55
• “When we began to elevate Barack Obama to the status of a demigod... they were creating a God of him.” – Kass, 07:46
• “The New York Times and the Washington Post each received Pulitzer Prizes... and that's why people lost faith.” – Kass, 09:56
• “They are the Democratic Party now. They decide whether you're going to succeed as a candidate or not.” – Kass, 12:14
• “Absolute failure and anarchy where people are attacked on the way home from work.” – Kass, 13:57
• “The people of Chicago are not intimidated by fancy pants talk. We really don't like that.” – Kass, 15:52
• “He actually adopted Patsy Custis and not just in law, but in heart... and when she passed away... he was grievously wounded by the loss.” – Meehan, 24:18
• “When a child enters the world, relationships are instantly made... and these relationships foster a sense of givenness and gratitude, which then is the engine for why you would give back.” – Meehan, 27:29
• “The family must be honored again... we need to re educate ourselves in the virtues. What will make you happy.” – Meehan, 38:32

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Key Timestamps

• 01:59: What is “The Chicago Way?”
• 03:33: Kass describes his exit from the Tribune
• 06:40: Rise of hagiography and propaganda in journalism
• 07:46: When did trust in media erode?
• 09:56: Pulitzer Prizes and Russiagate: Erosion of media credibility
• 11:40: Decline of traditional machine politics in Chicago
• 12:14: Rise of the Chicago Teachers Union
• 13:57: Social unrest and what other cities should anticipate
• 15:52: Blue-collar sensibility in Chicago politics
• 17:53: Kass’s two most significant columns
• 20:19: Hillsdale as modern bastion of learning
• 24:18: Washington’s example of parental love
• 27:29: The web of civic bonds created by children
• 32:13: Liberal arts education as civic and transcendent formation
• 33:40: Declining birth rates as a crisis of meaning, not just economics
• 38:32: Limits of state incentives for natalism; need for honor and virtue

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Conclusion

This episode provided a candid look at the state of American journalism through the experiences of John Kass, highlighting the dangers of ideological capture and the importance of independent reporting. In the second half, Dr. Matt Meehan offered a compelling philosophical case for the central place of children and families in civic life, critiquing utilitarian approaches and advocating the restoration of honor and virtue as the true foundation of a flourishing republican society.

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Transcript

[A]

From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught, nurtured and honored. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners across the country.

[B]

The arc of history would lead us to understand once you get socialism and then that falls apart and brings anarchy with it, then according to the Soviets, a strong man must appear. And I don't know if there's any such strong man.

[A]

This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. That was John Cass, legendary Chicago writer, journalist and columnist. We'll talk in depth with him today about his experience in Chicago media, what he's learned along the way, and how Chicago can warn the rest of the country about the consequences of bad government. Also later on in today's program, Matt Meehan from Hillsdale in D.C. will talk about the high purpose of children in American society. First, we're joined by John Kass, longtime writer, reporter and columnist in Chicago, now independent. You can find [e-mail] that's John. K-S news.com John's here on campus as part of our CCA lecture series on journalism. John, than joining us.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

It's a pleasure to be with you today. I've read you and the Chicago Tribune, where you worked previously for decades now, and it's a pleasure to have you here. You've written about Chicago for a long, long time. Started at the Tribune in 1980. So you covered the council wars of the 80s and the daily and the dailies and rom thousands of columns.

[B]

The rom father.

[A]

That's right. Your podcast is called the Chicago Way. What does that mean? What's the Chicago Way?

[B]

The Chicago Way comes from the movie the Untouchables, and David Mamet wrote a brilliant script. So the Chicago Way is taken from a dialogue. Sean Connery is playing the old copper Chicago cop, and he's telling a young Elliot Ness, played by Kevin Costner, how to get Capone. And he says, he takes a knife, you grab a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago Way. And it is true, that is the Chicago Way.

[A]

Is that ruthlessness perhaps the defining feature for you when you think about Chicago? Is that what you think about?

[B]

First, I don't see myself as a ruthless man. I see myself as a Christian, as a kind person. But yes, that is the Chicago Way, which is the name of the podcast, is about ruthlessness and that's the politics of Chicago.

[A]

Let's revisit how you ended your time at the Tribune, which was in 2021. And this could be an entire conversation in and of itself, but it speaks to how newspapers are run these days and who. Who really runs newspapers these days in many places. It started with a column that some of your colleagues didn't like, particularly in the. In the union, at the Tribune. So kind of take us through what happened.

[B]

Anarchy was breaking out throughout the United States. If you can think back to the 2000s, the summer of Love. Yeah, it was terrible. Anarchy. It was anarchy. And George Soros was the architect of the anarchy. He supported candidates for office, and it was really relatively inexpensive to do based on running other campaigns. He wanted to decarcerate the jails. Now, I'm. I'm mindful of what Christian teachings are with respect to visiting people in prison and having kindness toward them. But if you don't put people in jail, especially you get a repeat offender mentality. And innocent people, women, children, men, are destroyed by the predators. And this incensed me. So I had enough, and I started writing about George Soros now, the Jacobin, I use that name for the Tribune, the union, the newspaper guild, the union did not like me confronting George Soros. And as a result, they got a little feisty and they defamed me and demanded that I be removed from page two. And they demanded that I attend what I call and anyone who studies communism would know of as a struggle says session. They wanted me to stand before them and apologize. And my only response to an editor was, I'm not apologizing. And there you go.

[A]

They were successful in removing you from page two before you left. And I thought it was interesting because the paper had to insult its readers to make that happen. They had to say, the readers are not sophisticated enough to realize what's written as opinion on page two, which had been for decades. Not just you, but other writers at the Tribune. So now we have to relegate all of our opinion to two pages in the back of the first section. They had to say the readers couldn't figure out what was news and what was opinion anymore.

[B]

You know, my big fat Greek head is a picture right above, right under the column. You might want to think of that as my opinion, but. And it was. But they didn't like my opinion. This is the left. And it started, I think, when they created Barack Obama as a plaster saint. Hagiography, the creation of saints, is something that newspapers should not involve themselves in. But they did because they, because it became necessary to do the propaganda. And that's how the newspapers lost their way.

[A]

John Cass with us. You can find him at johncassnews.com, longtime writer, reporter, columnist with the Chicago Tribune, after leaving the Tribune, ended [e-mail] one of many journalists who have gone independent that we've worked welcomed here to campus. What do you think that you gained in that transition? What do you like about writing for [e-mail] I don't have any insect leaning

[B]

over my shoulder telling me what to think or what to say. Liberty and truth are the ideas behind Hillsdale College. And I, with all due humility, me, I mean, I believe in that as well.

[A]

You're here on campus, part of our CCA lecture series, speaking specifically about the decline of trust in mainstream media.

[B]

Isn't it good that they didn't say faith?

[A]

Yes. Yes. Can you put a finger on when that started? When did people begin to lose that trust in, in media?

[B]

When we began to elevate Barack Obama to the status of a demigod. At which point I realized they weren't, they weren't talking about Barack as a man because a man with flaws is running for president. They were talking about him as Pegasus rising from sea foam. They're creating a God of him. And in the sense I, I went to his, you know, I've known him for years. I went to his inauguration. I went to his speeches. I intended those and watched them. And I knew him well. I mean, he's from Chicago and he was a phony. And they didn't want this. Partly why I think the left in Chicago hated me so much. I didn't buy into the whole Barack Obama is a demigod.

[A]

When people say they don't trust the media, what do you think they really mean? Because hopefully they trust you.

[B]

I should hope so.

[A]

Maybe they trust like Catherine Herage, who's a previous guest here on Hillsdale's campus. She's been on the show recently. Catherine Herridge is now an independent journalist.

[B]

She's wonderful.

[A]

So when they say, oh, I don't, I don't trust the media, what do they mean?

[B]

I think they mean they know that there are people in the media who will supplant their, who install their opinion and leftist ideology or orthodoxy in place of effects. Now, we have had a president who ordered the FBI chief and the CIA chief to, according to the records, lie and put forward a different story that this man was, that Trump was a agent of the Russians, a tool of the Russians. And the fact is he was not. And they knew it, but they still manufactured this. And on top of it all, the New York Times and the Washington Post each received Pulitzer Prizes, which diminished forever if you thought Walter Durante was bad. Forever the Pulitzer Prize. And it's not worth anything now. But that's what happened and that's why people lost faith.

[A]

We'll continue with the great John Kass in just a moment. First, I want to make sure you know about the brand new Hillsdale College online course, Classical Logic and Rhetoric. We Talked recently with Dr. Benjamin Beyer, your teacher, for this course. Human beings are unique among the animals in our ability to think and speak. This course will help students hone those activities that most define our humanity. Logic helps us slow down and evaluate our ability to know the truth and understand the world around us. Rhetoric allows us to refine our ability to persuade others in both written and and oral communication. In short, this will help you think more clearly and speak more clearly. The Hillsdale College online course Classical Logic and Rhetoric. Sign up today hillsdale. Edu newcourse N E W C O U R S E Hillsdale. Edu newcourse for classical logic and rhetoric. We continue with John Cass. Find [e-mail] or over at the Chicago Way podcast. Longtime legendary Chicago reporter and columnist John I want to ask a few things about Chicago that perhaps a larger audience needs to be exposed to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Chicago for years politically was ruled by the dailies and Mike Madigan and their power has been.

[B]

Mike is in prison.

[A]

Mike's in prison. Mayor Daly's been gone for a while. His brother is not the plan player he once was. With that demise, with their demise, a power vacuum existed in Chicago. Into that stepped the Chicago Teachers Union. And you've written about this often.

[B]

Very good.

[A]

How did the Chicago Teachers Union become the most powerful union in this country?

[B]

Well, they are the Democratic Party now. They decide whether you're going to succeed as a candidate or not. And everyone kisses their behind if you want to run in those districts. How do they become popular?

[A]

Powerful?

[B]

President Roosevelt warned about the public sector unions. He warned us about them and no one took him seriously. And that's what we have.

[A]

Mayor Brandon Johnson. So Chicago has Rahm Emanuel rom father as mayor and they don't like him and he's too gruff and rough and they're, there's some, there's some police scandals under his administration. And so he is so unpopular, a

[B]

boy was killed and he covered it up.

[A]

So he was so unpopular he decides he's not going to run again. And you have Lori Lightfoot, who the people elect. And Lori Lightfoot is not competent to serve as mayor. And people realize that and they vote her out in a primary where she receives like 17% of the vote among Democrats. And now you have Brandon Johnson, who still is a Chicago Teacher's Union member. He's on leave at this point as he serves as mayor. Right. But Johnson's in and he's, he's a socialist. And Chicago sort of has this first draft of what New York might see under their socialist mayor, what Seattle might see under their socialist mayor.

[B]

They're seeing it now and public opinion

[A]

polls say Chicago doesn't like that either. So a. What should New York and Seattle expect in other big cities? Want to experiment with a socialist as mayor?

[B]

Michelle Wu.

[A]

Michelle Wu, correct. And then Biden. Where does Chicago turn next? If it's not Rahm, it's not Lori Lightfoot, it's not a socialist. Where are they going next?

[B]

I think. Well, the arc of history would lead us to understand once you get socialism and that falls apart and brings anarchy with it, then according to the Soviets, a strong man must appear. And I don't know if there's any such strong man because the debt of Chicago is severe. What should New York and the rest expect? Absolute failure and anarchy where people are attacked on the way home from work and innocent was what got me in so much trouble with the Tribune Union. Who takes the L, the public transportation. Who takes is the poorest of us. I drive, they're on the L and they're, they're, they're subject to the barbarism of the Democratic Party that does not incarcerate the violent. And as a result we saw a man arrested 72 times recently continually released out on the street a madman who burned a beautiful young girl. Her name was Bethany McGee on the L, covered her in gasoline and burned her alive. You can't have a city like that. A city like that won't live.

[A]

You write often from the perspective of regular people, regular Chicagoans, blue collar Chicagoans has the distance between those people and the people who are running things ruling Chicago has that, has that grown more distant over the years?

[B]

I don't think so. Chicago is still a blue collar town and common sense is prided. I don't think we're. The people of Chicago are not, are not intimidated by fancy pants talk. We really don't like that. We don't like fancy pants talk. We don't you know, you can talk like Bill Buckley, loved him, but you talk like Bill Buckley, you're not going to get elected in Chicago.

[A]

Final question for John Cass. You can find him at John Cass news.com longtime reporter, columnist and the Chicago Way podcast and the Chicago Way podcast as well. I have been a longtime reader of yours and my question is, is there a column that you wrote that really sticks with you, that you love? And I will tell you mine. So it's actually a happenstance, but we talk right around the 20 year anniversary of Sam Alito being confirmed at the Supreme Court. And you wrote a piece during his confirmation hearings in which Sam Alito's wife was in the room as Democrats were besmirching his character and saying all sorts of terrible things about him. Lindsey Graham came to his defense. And Graham sort of, you're not a closet bigot. And as he asked these questions, his wife fills his her eyes fill with tears, she runs out of the room. And the column was this conversation between you and your intern at the time talking about how lucky Sam Alito was to have a woman, a wife like that. And that I loved it at the time, printed it, still have it, still read it every now and then. I just love that perspective on relationships and marriage. And so that is, that's that stuck with me forever. People can still find that online, I believe, if you do a good search for it.

[B]

The Tribune hasn't gotten rid of it yet?

[A]

I don't think so. If you know how to search, you can still find it. So is there one that you've written, one or two you've written that you really love?

[B]

Yeah. Well, the first one was about my father. When I got the column, when I was given the column, I idolized my father. I guess you could say I'm a second generation anti communist. I love my father and I just wondered what he'd think of me being on page two. Immigrant, you know, son of a peddler, always given the back of the hand. All of us immigrants, that's what happens to us. I'm not complaining. That's part of the gig that we signed up for. And the other column I think that I always remember is one that I rewrite every day, every year at Christmas Eve, it's called O Holy Night and it is taken from the petitions of the Greek Orthodox liturgy, you know, Kyrie Leson for, for all the, all the parents in the world, all the children, Lord have mercy. Kydialaison. It runs throughout. And once editor, I know it's not funny. But my managing editor, James Patrick o', Shea, came up to me and said, you know, John, this sounds like this reads kind of like a prayer, you know, prayer in the paper.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just looked at him, I said, really?

[A]

John Cass, longtime writer, reporter, columnist at the Tribune, previously now writing independently at John Cass news.com that's K A S. Also find him at the Chicago Way podcast as well. John Kass, a guest here on campus as part of our CCA lecture series here on journalism. John, a pleasure to have you here on the radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[B]

It's such a pleasure. And please, may I offer one thing. I've been thinking about Hillsdale for so long, especially with the illness suffered from by Victor Davis Hansen. And I just think we need to pray for Victor because we need his clarity, especially now. And we need his clarity because Hillsdale represents in the Dark Ages, there were such places with high walls that students can come to safely and study. That's what I see is Hillsdale.

[A]

Thank you so much, John.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Up next, Matt Meehan from Hillsdale in D.C. will join us. We'll talk about the higher purpose of children in American society. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[C]

Hi there. It's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty? Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise? Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that, teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs, Imprimis, podcasts and more, we reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 7 1844. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.

[A]

Charlie Kirk understood that before he could lead, he needed to learn. He didn't need a degree, but he did need a teacher. Hillsdale College was there to teach him wherever and whenever he wanted to learn. Charlie took many of Hillsdale's free online courses studying the classics, the American Founding and the Bible. And you can learn like Charlie at Hillsdale. Edu Network. That's Hillsdale. Edu Network. Charlie Kirk strengthened his knowledge and courage by studying the greatest thinkers, writers and leaders of history, all with Hillsdale College. Visit Hillsdale Edu Network and you too can learn like Charlie. That's Hillsdale Edu Network. Welcome back to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertram. We want to say hello and welcome to our new listeners on our new affiliate, 92.3 the Hub, the voice for Freedom in Lubbock, Texas, and also new listeners at KBOI AM 670 FM 93.1 in Boise, Idaho. Thank you for listening to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. We're joined by Dr. Matt Meehan. He's associate dean and associate professor at the Van Andel Graduate School of Government at Hillsdale in D.C. Dr. Meehan, thanks for joining us.

[D]

Thanks, Scott.

[A]

Discussing today something you wrote for Heritage.org, part of their first Principles series on the higher purpose of children in American society. And when people read this, they'll be welcomed by the story of George Washington grieving the loss of his stepdaughter. Why did you choose to begin with this story of parental love and parental loss in this essay?

[D]

Yeah, it's a great question. I wanted George Washington, the father of the country, at the head of this essay because it's a look at the founding fathers and the phenomenology of raising children and how that energizes or even animates the entire American Republican system of limited government. And he's the tough case because he had no child. And so it's like, no, no, he's he's a political figure. But it turns out he actually adopted Patsy Custis and not just in law, but in heart, and became her father and loved her dearly. And when she passed away from some kind of aneurysm, he was grievously wounded by the loss. And that, to my mind, was an important sort of image because at the end of the day, why what I'm arguing here for the higher purpose of children in the American republic, why it's important is because of the adoptive power of love, is that the family gets adopted out into the community. And so the community is one of adopting families right through marriage, but also through basic love and service to the family.

[A]

You push back hard in this, in this research on the idea that children matter because they're going to grow up, they're going to join the labor force, they're going to get jobs, they're going to increase the tax base. What gets lost when we are talking about children only in economic terms?

[D]

Yeah. It's basically treating children as adults without any kind of recognition of their relationship or their personality as sons and daughters or nephews and nieces. So it's just looking at, at them as if they were already adults. But that's like half the show, right? Half the show is them raising children as fathers and mothers and being sons and daughters. And once you expand the actual Republican experience beyond the workplace and the economic output, eight hours a day, very important. But it's what about the weekends? Right. And the other rest of the day, then you start to see, oh, actually the value, the importance, the benefits of children go far beyond sort of, you know, the economic man. And that's what I wanted. And more importantly, that way of thinking about it is too low to inspire anybody to care. Right. It's like, because what we're having an immigration debate right now is, well, we can just import other workers. Yeah, like who cares? I just get other workers from other countries, no problem. Well, hold on. There might be something really important about children and family that sustains the goodness of our government.

[A]

One of those important things, one of the central claims is how children help hold the Republic together. They create bonds of justice and affection, responsibility. How does that presence of children change the way that people relate to each other in a community?

[D]

So this sounds so dumb. It's one of those self evident truths that when said you're like, yeah, of course. And people get annoyed because like, why am I even agreeing to this? It's so common sense. It's like, well, it turns out we have some uncommon senselessness. So let's just return to some common sense, which is when a child enters the world, relationships are instantly made. You have a grandfather, you have a grandmother, you have a nephew, you have a niece, you have an uncle, you have a mother, you have a father, you have a neighbor. All of a sudden there are all these relations and you're like, yes, great. Any human being creates those relationships. Yeah. But those humans beings come out of family life once you start to see that weave. And then it extends into social and economic life. Now you're a classmate, you're an alumnus, now you're the lead pitcher on the baseball team, et cetera. This all becomes the relationships that in Republican government we used to refer to as the complexa kari tatis, the complex of charity, the complex of loves, the interwoven network of loves. That are in civil society. And you say like we used to call it, that's like, yeah, everybody knew this before 1950. Everybody knew the complex of charity. Like, like you, they would have known exactly where it came from. Book one of Cicero's on duties. Most people had it memorized. Any serious citizen was studying it. This was the norm. And they. What they understood from that is it's precisely this complex of loves which you benefit from and feel very good about and very grateful about. That's the engine of all civic and social duty. Thank you for loving me, Mr. Street Sweeper, Mr. Garbage Man, Mr. Coach, Mr. Teacher, Mom, dad, uncle, aunt, brother, sister. All of those relationships are what foster a sense of givenness and gratitude, which then is the engine for why you would give back. And so if you're going to fight and die for your country on a foreign battlefield, right. Or defend it here, God forbid, right. Or if you're going to basically sacrifice for public service, right. In whatever way that takes shape or even not public, but private service, right. To the family, right. The sacrifices of family life, you have to have gratitude. And that gratitude comes from this interwoven network of loves which comes through the child and the rearing of children.

[A]

Talking about Hillsdale's Dr. Matt Meehan about his research over at Heritage.org, the higher purpose of children in American society, talked about Washington, Adams, Franklin also play a role in what you've written. Do you think they understood something about children and civic life that perhaps we've forgotten?

[D]

I do. So a lot of these experiences, and I shouldn't say all of us have forgotten. I would say most of us have forgotten how to articulate it. That's kind of my role as Mr. Chatterbox professor, but. But I think a lot of people have actually totally forgotten it as well. Too many. So it's not totally gone, but it needs re articulation and then it needs to be relived. But part of what you see, and this is James Wilson and John Adams, you can actually see in their writings they're thinking through the rearing of children is actually the experience for mother and father and extended family and teachers of the balance of liberty and law which we must have. And so actually raising a next generation is this refresher course on governance.

[A]

Right.

[D]

Because the children really need law and they're not yet capable of that much liberty when they're younger. And then you slowly open the aperture unto adulthood. And so getting that right, and then seeing a kid fail to thrive or be angry and rebellious or happy and joyful, grateful, responsible or crushed by too many rules. All of that is actually analogous training for self government. It's not the whole thing.

[B]

Right.

[D]

There's a prudence to government. I'm the professor of Government, Dean of Government. Family life is not enough. Being a good dad will not make you a great senator or a president. Right. Like there's a whole arc to governing. Yes, but there are lots of preliminary analog things that the citizenry need to be doing and thinking about that will help them choose good representatives and develop proper political opinions. Right. Which will inform what governors and government does. And that is lost when you don't have the experience of raising children. And that is a big problem because you get unrealistic expectations about both control, happiness and freedom.

[A]

Throughout the essay, education keeps coming up not just as job preparation, but something essential to self government. What kind of education do children need if our republic is going to last?

[D]

They need a liberal arts education, but they need one that understands the arts of liberty, which is the same old Latin phrase from Cicero, just translated in two different ways. Because it's two sides of the same coin. Right. A walled city is still open to the sky. So there has to be a transcendent view to education that is open to the immortal soul and an afterlife that we are not made for this world alone. And then there has to be a very serious civic component. Rhetoric, communication, persuasion, through speech to the truth. Otherwise it's all jack boats, Nazis and despots. Right. You have to have. Law is a liberal art much forgotten in our day. Even in the classical ed movement, that's still not quite fully understood. But it was understood that obviously some law must be brought forward because that is part of the arts of liberty. Right. You have to live by law. And that's how you find basically an eye for the divine law and the eternal law and the natural law. Right. And the. The use gentian, the laws of peoples, how we treat one another. Right. And thus common law, constitutional law, positive human law, and then custom. Right. And then habit in the family and all those things.

[A]

Right.

[D]

It's very important to think about law and be a people of law that is republican. So that's a very broad brushstroke of what's needed. But I do think that's. That's the viewpoint we should have with an eye not just to knowledge, but to praxis.

[A]

Both talking with Dr. Batmee and about his work [e-mail], the higher purpose of children in American society. We hear a lot about falling birth Rates here in America usually framed as again, an economic crisis, the economy is going to suffer or entitlement programs will suffer. What does a declining regard for children say more perhaps about a society's sense of meaning or purpose?

[D]

So I mentioned briefly in the, in the, the, the White paper, PD James is the children of men, which is the kind of speculative, rhetorical exercise of what would happen if there were no children in society. And it turns out that because there is no need to propagate the way of life into the next generation, there is a kind of sad carelessness that sets in where it's like, what does it even matter actually? And so liberty free government, the ability to have enough room and enough guides both law and liberty to create new, raise new human beings that are fully formed and mature. It doesn't really matter. We're all formed already, we're all adults, so who really cares? Just let somebody else handle that and just eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we'll die. The transcendent is, is gone, right? And the major project of liberty is gone, which is to raise the next generation of good men and women. I do think that one of the knock on effects of this is a very dangerous utopianism because there's not, when you don't have children in the mix, there is not an understanding of the joys of these private but transcendent goods of being given a new human being made in the image and likeness of God, which even the most ambitious of our founding fathers. I made great truck with Alexander Hamilton because of the musical. He is like Mr. Ambition. I gotta sacrifice family life, you know, just go, go found the Republic. Energy, energy, energy, right? He says in his letters, the joy I have from my child, right, from family life makes everything else pale in comparison. All of the achievements of the Republic do not add up to this. That is to say, those private and yet very publicly shared goods like a child into the city, right? But also transcendent goods of raising a new immortal soul into this life of the next to pursue happiness beyond the grave. That is such a consolation that it anesthetizes us. Or immunizes us is the better term. Against the utopian cries of if we just do this government can make us all happy. It's like I have a certain glimmer of happiness here that you will never be able to replace with whatever new Bernie Bro program or Mayor of New York program that will never do it. And so an entire citizenry of single people is much more liable to utopian crazy political adventure.

[A]

Milton Friedman talked About this, I think it was in relation to the inheritance tax, you know, long ago in late 70s, but essentially was saying, you know, as an economist's economist, it makes no sense to him. But people are far more concerned about the quality of life for their kids and what they're leaving for their kids than they are for themselves. And that changes a whole, you know, a myriad of policy prescriptions and the way you view any number of issues.

[D]

No, that's right. It winds up. You can even see it in Supreme Court dicta like Wisconsin v. Yoder. I bring up in the paper, the entire Republican commercial limited government project of America is basically the love of parents for their children industriously uniting with other parents in order to secure those goods for all. Right in, in union. That's the game. And when it goes away, I think the form of government will have to change. So that's why it's very important to get to the aim higher for the family. Because if you, it's like Machiavelli says, if you aim up here, gravity will pull your arrow down. If you aim at like we need more bodies for entitlements, right? Like if you aim there, your arrows in the dirt and you don't have a happy family culture of America anymore, you have to aim very high and when you do that, maybe you'll get, you know, some enriched entitlements and some more people.

[A]

There are people who recognize this, but the, the way they're going about this. So I, I Korea elsewhere that they're paying South Korea, they're, they're paying people to have children. They want to pay people to have children. Even here in the United States we talk about, well, maybe we can have this tax credit here, maybe we can have free child care there. Are those any of those things, the type of proposals or type of ideas that will really change the way that we think about children in society.

[D]

So they are marginal benefits. And we've seen it. You push a little, you give some money and you get a little bump and then the bump kind of evens out. So the idea that it's totally useless, I would not say that the idea that it will actually sort of solve the birth dearth problem or that deep natalism only requires these kinds of additional, you know, oomphs. I don't think so. I think what people need to be paid in is not just physical benefits or material benefits, but honor. Right. The family must be honored again. And you can see this even in people that I think are a little suspect on these questions, like Francis Bacon in the New Atlantis, he has this whole idea for how to honor the father, how to honor the family. And there's these festivals of the father. We have Father's Day and Mother's Day. And those things are good. But I think also just we need to re educate ourselves in the virtues. What will make you happy. And I mentioned this earlier, magnanimity. Right. This is a, this is a virtue of the willingness to embrace pain and suffering for great goods and that, that will make you happy and is beautiful. A lot of people tell me that they, they can't have a family because they can't afford a home. I will confess on the radio, I didn't own a home until I held my eighth child in a NICU with a hole in her heart. That's when I bought my first home. Right. So you need to be. I will suffer for family.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And I'll put family first. And then it turns out that there is a provident God and a natural law like the tail of a comet. It will shine very brightly. But you need to throw that ice rock out into space. You need to take the leap and be serious. And I think that kind of education in virtue and morality, that kind of civilizational confidence in doing what humans do well. Right. And doing what pleases God, that has to be at the forefront of this success strategy. The goodies are a secondary and they can help band aid here and there.

[A]

Dr. Matt Meehan, Associate dean and associate professor at the Van Andel Graduate School of government in Washington, D.C. and writing the Higher Purpose of Children in American society [e-mail], part of their First Principles series. Dr. Meehan, thanks for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[D]

Thanks, Scott.

[A]

That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to John Cass, legendary Chicago reporter and columnist. You can find him at johncassnews.com, also the Chicago Way podcast and Dr. Matt Meehan from Hillsdale in D.C. the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour is recorded at the studios of wrfh, the student run radio station at Hillsdale College. Remember, you can hear new episodes every week on this station. You also can find extended versions of some of our interviews or listen anytime to the podcast. Find it at podcast Hillsdale. Edu or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube. Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram and this has been the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.