Lessons Learned from the Vietnam War

Summary

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The Radio Free Hillsdale Hour

Episode Title: Lessons Learned from the Vietnam War
Date: September 5, 2025
Host: Scott Bertram
Featured Guest: Dr. Mark Moyer (William P. Harris Chair of Military History, Hillsdale College)

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Episode Overview

This episode marks fifty years since the fall of Saigon with a deep dive into the enduring lessons of the Vietnam War and its profound impact on U.S. foreign policy, civil-military relations, public perception, and global alliances. Host Scott Bertram interviews Dr. Mark Moyer, a leading historian of Vietnam, author of Triumph Forsaken and Triumph Regained, to examine how Vietnam has shaped the thinking of American leaders and citizens over five decades. The conversation explores everything from tactical changes within the military to philosophical questions about America’s self-conception and its credibility on the world stage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Core Lesson of Vietnam: Projecting Strength

[01:44–02:36]

• Dr. Moyer emphasizes that “the most important” lesson is the necessity for the U.S. to project strength:

  “We often get into wars because we end up trying too hard for peace and we don't convince our enemies that we really are going to fight when push comes to shove.”
  — Dr. Mark Moyer [01:21]

• Over-eagerness to avoid escalation or to end wars has historically emboldened adversaries.

2. Shift in Use of Military Force

[02:36–04:19]

• Post-Vietnam, leaders have been more cautious, particularly about the deployment of ground troops and engagement in prolonged conflicts.
• The public expects wars to be winnable and brief, influencing presidential rhetoric and military doctrine.
• However, as recent history in Afghanistan shows, these lessons are not always easy to apply:

  “We never quite got to grips with the fact that there was a Pakistan next door that would allow people to keep sending troops there and to make this go on and on.”
  — Dr. Mark Moyer [03:45]

3. Communicating War and Public Opinion

[04:19–06:09]

• Vietnam’s lesson: Presidents must persuasively and persistently “sell” wars to the public to maintain support.

• Lyndon Johnson’s failure in this regard – fearing distraction from his domestic agenda – damaged homefront unity.

• Nixon was more adept at rallying support, but much varies by presidential leadership style.

  “If you are going to fight a war, you probably want to make it very clear to the American people what you’re doing and remind them repeatedly... If the government’s ignoring them... that creates a lot of problems.”
  — Dr. Mark Moyer [05:38]

4. Rebalancing Executive and Congressional War Powers

[06:09–08:18]

• Watergate and Vietnam together weakened the presidency, empowering Congress with tools like the War Powers Act.

• Tension now between Congressional oversight and executive branch autonomy — a pendulum that continues to swing.

  “Congress is further weakening executive power, really threatening the separation of powers.”
  — Dr. Mark Moyer [06:48]

• Recent presidents have tested these boundaries (e.g., Obama with Libya).

5. Effect on U.S. Global Credibility and Alliances

[08:18–10:03]

• The aftermath of Vietnam did erode U.S. reliability in the eyes of allies, especially those in Asia.
• The "domino theory" critics are contrasted with local perspectives:

  “The Thais were saying, well, if you put all this effort in Vietnam, then you pulled out... you're going to do the same thing to us, so we're not going to trust you anymore.”
  — Dr. Mark Moyer [09:21]

• Restoration of allies’ confidence only begins with the Reagan administration.

6. The "Vietnam Syndrome" and Overcorrection

[10:03–11:28]

• Both left and right internalized lessons: the left became wary of all foreign interventions, the right insisted on clear, winnable objectives only.
• The phrase “another Vietnam” often misused; each conflict is unique.

7. Positive Military Changes and Counterinsurgency

[11:28–13:03]

• Lessons about counterinsurgency learned—but only revived when the U.S. faced asymmetric warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan decades later.
• Military adapted press strategy, war aims, and approach to winning decisively.

  “The military, certainly, in terms of strategy, has been more focused on how do we make sure that we win decisively.”
  — Dr. Mark Moyer [12:23]

8. The Lasting Impact on Policy and Recent Wars

[13:03–14:39]

• Disputes over the root of counterinsurgency: Is it about having the right tactics or the right leaders?
• U.S. repeated some Vietnam errors in Iraq and Afghanistan, particularly overestimating the power of formulas over genuine leadership on the ground.

  “You can't really execute a playbook very well if you don't have good coaches and good players.”
  — Dr. Mark Moyer [13:56]

9. Vietnam’s Place in American Memory and Education

[14:39–17:15]

• Vietnam is central to political and academic narratives about America’s past, often shaping a negative or pessimistic self-image.
• Dr. Moyer strives to correct misconceptions and present Vietnam as a noble aim that went astray:

  “If you interpret Vietnam the way they do, this shows that the United States is this bungling, racist, violent nation. And so for them, Vietnam’s Exhibit 1 as to what's wrong with the United States… I don't think it's what people say it was. In many ways, it was a noble crusade that went awry.”
  — Dr. Mark Moyer [15:41]

• Pop culture (movies like Platoon and Full Metal Jacket) have faded in the memories of today’s students, requiring renewed educational focus.

10. Vietnam at 50 Conference (Context and Content)

[17:15–19:03]

• Hillsdale College hosted a conference with top “revisionist” Vietnam historians challenging the orthodox, negative view of the war.
• Presenters included James Wilbanks, Jay Veith, John Del Vecchio, and Hillsdale’s own Bill McClay, along with a panel of veterans.
• Recordings available on the Hillsdale College Freedom Library.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “…if you are going to fight a war, you probably want to make it very clear to the American people what you're doing and remind them repeatedly of this.”
  — Dr. Mark Moyer [05:02]

• “Congress is further weakening executive power, really threatening ... the separation of powers.”
  — Dr. Mark Moyer [06:48]

• “The left took…we need to stay out of these foreign military interventions. The right took away…we shouldn't do these military inventions unless we're going in to win.”
  — Dr. Mark Moyer [10:23]

• “Vietnam is…Exhibit 1 as to what's wrong with the United States. And so if you really want to understand your nation, you need to understand Vietnam…”
  — Dr. Mark Moyer [15:49]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Projecting Strength & Dangers of Over-Caution: [01:44–02:36]
• Changes in Military Doctrine Post-Vietnam: [02:36–04:19]
• Selling War to the Public: [04:19–06:09]
• Congressional vs. Executive Power: [06:09–08:18]
• Damage to Global Alliances: [08:18–10:03]
• Overcorrecting & "Vietnam Syndrome": [10:03–11:28]
• Lessons for Counterinsurgency: [11:28–13:03]
• Vietnam’s Long-Term Influence: [13:03–14:39]
• Teaching Vietnam, Setting the Historical Record: [14:39–17:15]
• Description of “Vietnam at 50” Conference: [17:15–19:03]

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Conclusion

Through this reflective episode, Dr. Mark Moyer and Scott Bertram illuminate how the Vietnam War left lasting imprints not only on U.S. military practice and foreign policy but also on public memory, the American psyche, and the country’s role as a global leader. The lessons remain vital as America continues to grapple with the balance between caution and resolve on the world stage, and as new generations seek to understand what Vietnam really means for the nation’s past, present, and future.

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For full lectures from the Vietnam at 50 Conference, visit the Hillsdale College Freedom Library online.

Transcript

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught, nurtured and honored. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners across the country. It's unfortunate, but we often get into wars because we end up trying too hard for peace and we don't convince our enemies that we really are going to fight when push comes to shove.

[Scott Bertram]

This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast network. That was Dr. Mark Moyer, William P. Harris, chair of Military history here at Hillsdale College. As we mark two anniversaries in today's show, first, the Vietnam War at 50, and later the Great Gatsby, the novel at 100. We begin the program with a chat with Dr. Mark Moyer. He is William P. Harris, chair of Military history here at Hillsdale College, also the author of multiple books about Vietnam, including Forsaken and Triumph Regained. A third book in that trilogy is coming. Markmoyer.com is his website. Dr. Moyer, thanks so much for joining us.

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

Great to be with you, Scott.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking today about Vietnam, we are 50 years on from the fall of Saigon and some of the lessons that shaped American foreign policy for the five decades since the fall of Saigon. What do you think is the most important lesson that the United States should have learned from the Vietnam War?

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

Well, I think probably the most important is that we need to always project strength and not try too hard to avoid provoking others because that's really where we get ourselves in the most trouble. During this war is a number of occasions we seem so eager to try to end the war or to avoid a larger war that we encourage our enemies. And, and this is a recurrent pattern we've seen in other episodes of American history as well. It's unfortunate, but we often get into wars because we end up trying too hard for peace and we don't convince our enemies that we really are going to fight. When push comes to shove, did Vietnam.

[Scott Bertram]

Change the way that most US Leaders thought about using military force abroad? Perhaps more caution or more caution, particularly for ground troops in the future?

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

Yeah, I think it did create a greater awareness that a limited, protracted conflict is going to be very difficult to sustain. American people don't in general want to tolerate that. They want wars that can be won. And so we've seen since then a lot of, you know, repeatedly we saw so in the Gulf War. We've heard more recent presidents also talk about, you Know, they. They want to fight wars like the 1991 Gulf War. They don't want to fight Iraq and Afghanistan and so. And military leaders have also talked about that and how we need to have clearly obtainable objectives, which does make a good deal of sense. Now, there is the problem that there may be wars where those conditions don't apply. Do we still want to fight those wars? You know, Afghanistan, there clearly was a reason to fight in Afghanistan. We never quite got to grips with the fact that there was a Pakistan next door that would allow people to keep sending troops there and to make this go on and on. And there were some attempts to remedy that. But, you know, certainly now there is. I think we're back closer to where we were after Vietnam, that we really don't want to fight a war unless it's absolutely necessary. And if there is a clear path to victory. But again, if something happens, there's a terror attack here or some other calamity, we might find ourselves going back again into one of these more difficult wars.

[Scott Bertram]

I think public opinion was very loud during the Vietnam War. Did that experience influence how later wars were communicated to the American people?

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

Yeah, there was certainly some vocal opposition. I think a lot of this was the fault of the administration and Lyndon Johnson, particularly, because he consciously did not try to sell this war to the American people. He later admitted that basically he was trying to be the FDR who had the next version of the New Deal. It was going to be the Great Society and civil rights, and that if you're fighting a war that's going to take attention away and people are gonna get spun up about the war and they're gonna forget about his great domestic agenda. Now he think eventually realized it was kind of a mistake. And so, you know, Richard Nixon does make a more conscious effort to try to sell the war to the people and does a fairly good job of it. I think you've seen. We've seen, again, I think to some degree depends on presidents, too. I mean, George W. Bush was more aggressive in selling the Gulf War than Bill Clinton was trying to sell somalia. And George H.W. bush was more outspoken, trying to rally people around Iraq and Afghanistan. Barack Obama, much less so. And so I think we keep learning the lesson that if you are going to fight a war, you probably want to make it very clear to the American people what you're doing and remind them repeatedly of this so that you are able to maintain this more. Because I think the people generally are willing to support the government if the government is making a persuasive case to them. And if the government's ignoring them, I think that's, you know, creates a lot of problems.

[Scott Bertram]

Mark Moyer, with us, William P. Harris, chair of military history at Hillsdale College, also author of Triumph Forsaken, Triumph Regained, talking about Vietnam, the lessons that have shaped American foreign policy since then. Are there ways in which the Vietnam War and its aftermath reshaped the relationship between Congress and the president when it comes to foreign policy?

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

Yes, you have, again, thanks to Watergate, you have the ascent of Congress to the most powerful position it's really been in since Reconstruction a century earlier, where you have the executive very much weakened. And so the Congress is further weakening executive power, really threatening, I think, the separation of powers. And so one of the things they do is enact the War Powers act, which puts restrictions on the ability of the president to deploy military forces. Now, part of that is also driven by the fact that Lyndon Johnson used and I think to some degree abused the Tonkin gulf resolution of 1964 and never went to Congress to get a declaration of war and was dishonest about that. And so we've seen that War Powers act has been to some degree a check on executives, although we've also seen some presidents honoring it more than others. Barack Obama flouted it in the case of Libya, which I think set a further precedent. We were now just seeing the US Going and bombing Iran. And it's hard for the Democrats now to complain that president's not going along with restrictions on the presidency after Barack Obama did it. So we're now certainly swinging to some degree in the other direction of the executive, again being more powerful. I do think if there is some kind of longer, broader conflict, Congress will want to get involved. And, you know, they still control the power of the purse, so they do have a lot of influence.

[Scott Bertram]

Did the Vietnam experience have an effect on America's alliances with other countries? Did it do real damage to our trust across the globe?

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

Yeah, and that's I do think it did. And that's one of the big enduring controversies of the war, because part of the rationale for going in the first place was that our allies around the world are going to look at how we support our ally in South Vietnam and that if they see us, you know, selling this ally down the river, they're going to lose confidence in us as an ally. Now, the critics of that generally from the left argue, no, that's not really true. That's credibility doesn't go from one country to another. But I think Both in Vietnam and I've written a lot about this, that clearly many countries, especially those in Asia, very much were of the opinion that what America does in Vietnam is going to tell us whether we can count on them. Because if America, one of the ideas was, oh, well, you can leave Vietnam and go make your stand somewhere else like Thailand or someplace. And so. But what we know from the Thais now is the Thais were saying, well, if you put all this effort in Vietnam, then you pulled out. When the going gets rough, you're going to do the same thing to us, so we're not going to trust you anymore. And so you do see a general decline in confidence in America after the fall of Saigon, which the Soviets will capitalize on, and very bad period to come. It's harder years, very poor in terms of our alliance relationships. Fortunately, Ronald Reagan gets elected and in 1981 starts repairing those alliances and rebuilding trust.

[Scott Bertram]

We hear often we can't have another Vietnam. We can't repeat Vietnam. In a way. Did the United States end up over correcting after the Vietnam War, becoming too cautious, perhaps?

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

Yeah, I think that is correct. Again, this is also very much divided along ideological lines. I think the big lesson the left took was basically, we need to stay out of these foreign military interventions. The right took away the view that we shouldn't do these military inventions unless we're going in to win. So in both cases, there is something more of a reluctance. I mean, it's been interesting. It's only recently turned, in the case of Ukraine, where the left has gone back to a greater appetite for interventions. They were the ones who were more interested in supporting Ukraine, although you don't have Americans there. So I think if Americans start getting killed, you'd start to see that same sort of reluctance. But for many years, the left brought up this is gonna be another Vietnam as an excuse, especially when Republicans were in office. And usually, I think when people talk about that, they don't really have a very good idea of what another Vietnam actually means, because every conflict is different in some ways. And so I think we need to be careful of drawing those kind of comparisons.

[Scott Bertram]

What about positive changes, positive changes in the military when it comes to tactics or strategy, structure? Positive changes that perhaps came out of some of the failures in Vietnam?

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

Well, there were some very good lessons learned about counterinsurgency and as well as, I think, some inaccurate lessons. And those get buried for the next 25 years or 30 years, really, because there's this general perception that we're not going to fight Another Vietnam War. Again. Of course, we get to Iraq and Afghanistan in the early 21st century, and now suddenly we're doing counterinsurgency again. So there's a lot of people looking back at what are the lessons? And I think some of those lessons are valid and have been helpful. We have. The military, certainly, in terms of strategy, has been more focused on how do we make sure that we win decisively. I think there's also a recognition that sometimes you're going to have to fight wars, and ultimately it's up to the political authorities to decide do we fight this war or not. And so the military doesn't necessarily get to choose how to win. I think the military's, to some extent, learned how to deal better with the press, although it's been prominent they basically censored the press in the first Gulf War. Later on, with longer conflicts, they made more of an attempt to try to accommodate the press, which I think was fairly successful. Yeah, I guess I would say those are probably the biggest lessons that have come out of Vietnam.

[Scott Bertram]

Can you draw any direct lines, perhaps, from the lessons or even the misinterpretations of Vietnam and how they might have shaped more recent conflicts, be it Iraq or Afghanistan?

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

I do think there was some of the emphasis on counterinsurgency. There's been a big debate among counterinsurgency experts, and I've been of the view that counterinsurgency fundamentally is a question of leadership and whose leaders are more capable and more dedicated. And I wrote a whole book about this called Question of Command. But we learned that in Vietnam. But what you had. There were other influential people, people like John Nagle and David Kilcullen, who were arguing that counterinsurgency is really about having the right playbook. And we just didn't use the right playbook in Vietnam. And now we've got the right playbook. We're going to hand it out to everyone in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, there are some virtues to having a playbook, but can't really execute a playbook very well if you don't have good coaches and good players. And I think we. We learned that again, you know, unfortunately. And there was too much, especially in Afghanistan, I think for a while, there was overconfidence that if we simply, you know, have this enlightened. These lame tactics that were gonna win everybody's hearts and minds, and it just didn't work because. Mainly because our allies, the Afghans and the Iraqis, never, never really got the type of leadership that was required and that the Enemy had leaders who were better and more dedicated than the ones on our side.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking with Mark Moyer, William P. Harris, chair of Military History here at Hillsdale College, we just had this conference marking 50 years from the fall of Saigon. I'm gonna ask more about that specifically in a minute. But, you know, when I was growing up, Vietnam was over, but it was still very much alive. And we are decades past that at this point. When you talk to our students, other young Americans about why Vietnam still matters today, what do you tell them?

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

Yeah, I tell them that, first of all, it has been part of a key, part of an effort to rewrite the nation's history, which you see from the dominant narratives now that we get from academia that are taught also in high schools. The left wing baby boomers were formed in the Vietnam era and developed in many ways, negative view of American history and Vietnam to a large extent, kind of drove their views. And again, I think they misinterpreted Vietnam. But if you interpret Vietnam the way they do, this shows that the United States is this bungling, racist, violent nation. And so for them, Vietnam's Exhibit 1 as to what's wrong with the United States. And so if you really want to understand your nation, you need to understand Vietnam because it's, you know, I don't think it's what people say it was. And it was in many ways in this noble crusade that went awry. And so I think it is very important. And that's really what we try to get across to them because it is now more distant. So they don't have the same memories. And some of them, many of them haven't even seen the Vietnam movies that when you and I were growing up, everybody had seen Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, Apocalypse now and Rambo. And so actually I do show them some of these movies to kind of familiarize them. There are a few buffs who, for a lot of them, Iraq and Afghanistan are much more relevant and current, although even those are, you know, I think are now fading a bit from some people's memories. So. But, you know, it's very, as with, I think all of our nation's history really needs to be studied. And we, you know, we study military history because there's so much to learn. But Vietnam is. And the reason I was drawn to it is, I think, the most controversial episode and one that still has enormous ramifications for how we think of ourselves as a country.

[Scott Bertram]

As I mentioned, we just had this conference here on Hillsdale's campus marking 50 years, the fall of Saigon and the videos of these great lectures are available on the Hillsdale College Freedom Library. If you search Hillsdale College Freedom Library, it will pop up. You can find the videos. Who was involved in what was discussed at that conference?

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

Yes, we had some of the top scholars of the war who are from leaning towards what we call the revisionist school, which views the war not as this terrible, unwinnable war, which is this sort of orthodox view, but rather as a war that made some sense and in which we had a good ally, but we just didn't execute well. And so the first speaker we had was James Wilbanks, who taught for many years at the Army Command General Staff College. He'd written a host of books on Vietnam. He also served in Vietnam in 1972 during the Easter offensive. And he talked about the American withdrawal from about 69 to 73. And then Jay Veith picked up there and took it to the end of the war. And he's the author of Black April, which is the best single account we have of the final fall of South Vietnam. Then we had John Del Vecchio, who's a leading novelist. His great novels of the war include the 13th valley. I gave a talk as well on the broad controversies over the war and why I think the revisionist position is generally more accurate. And then we had a panel with Hillsdale's Bill McClay and we had several other veterans, Andy Finlayson, Phil Jennings, and it was a great event. I'm glad we're able to get this all down in video so people can watch it at their leisure.

[Scott Bertram]

Search Hillsdale College Freedom Library to find those videos. Mark Moyer, William P. Harris, chair of military history here at Hillsdale College, author of Triumph Forsaken and Triumph Regained. You can find his [e-mail] thank you so much for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[Dr. Mark Moyer]

Great to be with you again, Scott.

[Scott Bertram]

Up next, Dr. Ben Whalen from Hillsdale's English department joins us as we discuss the 100th anniversary of the Great Gatsby. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. On the new episode of the Larry Arn Show, Hillsdale College President Larry P. Arn sits down with pastor, professor and author Kevin DeYoung for a one on one conversation.

[Kevin DeYoung]

A lot of political theory has to start, you know, as a Christian with Jesus saying, give me the coin whose face is on Caesar's render, to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God's the things that are God's. Well that gives some kind of, to use our language, separation of churches. It says that it's not identical. And it says not just that you need to give taxes to Caesar because Caesar has a certain realm, but in saying, rendered to Caesar God the things that are God's, it says Caesar doesn't have, doesn't have everything. Caesar doesn't have control over your life.

[Scott Bertram]

Listen to this exclusive interview with Kevin DeYoung right now, only available on the Larry Arn Show. Find it on the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at Podcast Hillsdale. Edu also at Apple podcasts Spotify and YouTube and subscribe to receive new episodes delivered right to your device. That's podcast hillsdale.edu.

[Larry Arne]

Great books, great people, great ideas. Learning about these things is critical to being a well educated human being. And we can help with the Hillsdale Dialogues. Each week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins radio veteran Hugh Hewitt to discuss topics of enduring relevance. And from time to time, they also talk about current events, but always with an eye toward more fundamental truths. And they want you to tune in to a conversation like no other. The Hillsdale Dialogues are posted every Monday on the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at podcast hillsdale.edu. that's podcast hillsdale Edu. Or listen via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you find find your audio.

[Scott Bertram]

Welcome back to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertrand. Be sure to check out the Hillsdale College Podcast Network featuring additional episodes of this program plus all sorts of great Hillsdale College audio. Find it at Podcast Hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your podcasts. We're joined by Dr. Benedict Whelan. He's Associate professor of English here at Hillsdale College. Dr. Whelan, thanks for joining us.

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Thanks for having me, Scott.

[Scott Bertram]

Always fun to have you in studio for a conversation. I noted surprisingly before you did. This year, 2025, is the 100th anniversary of the release of the Great Gatsby.

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Yes, that's right.

[Scott Bertram]

And I thought we should talk about it a little bit. I read this book in high school, but not again in college. It's one that you teach here at Hillsdale for some of our students. So an opportunity to have a conversation about both Fitzgerald and the book, its enduring legacy. But today, a little bit about what makes the Great Gatsby great. That's the title of the book. What should it suggest to a reader when they pick it up? What is the Great Gatsby about?

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

It is really wonderful to talk about the Great Gatsby. It's had a solid century here as a mainstay in the American imagination, in your experience, I think, which is quite common. It's a mainstay in American high school curricula. Now I teach it at the college level. So it really has a significant, important central place. It's great in a variety of ways, even in your experience reading it in high school. It's an accessible novel. It's short but powerful. It tells a great story of love and loss and it's got a. A strong sort of tragic inflection. But even on the collegiate level, then it's quite interesting to study as a work representative of certain important aspects of American culture and thought, especially in the 1920s, and aspects that I think have resonated for the last hundred years. So it's great on a variety of levels, both representative of its era, but then also in the power and punch of the story itself.

[Scott Bertram]

This, our main character here of Gatsby. Why is he such an unforgettable character? And does his character specifically contribute to the novel's greatness?

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Yeah. So one of the important things to remind listeners is that the novel is told in a first person narrative, but the narrator is not Gatsby. It's this other character, Nick Carraway. And so he ends up neighbors of this young man who's about the same age. They're in their.

[Julianne Hillock]

They're.

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

They're about 30 years old and they're. They end up neighbors. And so we, we meet Gatsby and see him through the eyes of this first person narrator. And there's a degree to which Gatsby remains enigmatic. We, we don't actually get inside his head. We don't know everything that moves him. But one of the things that Gatsby is driven by, first of all, he's a. He's a man. He's a self made man. He has built up tremendous wealth and he's driven by this dream, this memory of this youthful love affair that he. And so part of what makes Gatsby great is that he's sort of a representative figure for the sort of self made, dreaming American come out of the west to the east to try to accomplish his dreams.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking with Dr. Ben Whalen about the Great Gatsby Fitzgerald, F. Scott Fitzgerald, known for his lyrical prose. Are there particular lines or passages in the Great Gatsby that stand out to you, as you teach, as examples of literary greatness?

[Larry Arne]

Yes.

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

So we were talking about what makes Gatsby great, but what makes the book as a whole great? I really think one of the very Finest Things is Fitzgerald's. It's a poetic prose. It's lyrical in a very truly lyric sense. It reads sometimes its expressions can be ornate to the point and lyrical to the point of being somewhat indefinite. And instead they capture or convey their meaning through evoking all these different sort of colors and thoughts rather than just definitive declarative statements. If I can read just a little bit. This is one of the most famous bits from the very end of the novel, the last page of the novel. But you hear Nick Carraway Fitzgerald through the first person narrator, reflecting on the new world on the Manhattan island. Most of the big shore places were closed now, and there were hardly any lights except the shadowy, moving glow of a ferryboat across the sound. And as the moon rose higher, the inessential houses began to melt away. Until gradually I became aware of the old island here that flowered once for Dutch sailors eyes a fresh green breast of the New World. Its vanished treesthe trees that had made way for Gatsby's house had once pandered in whispers to the last and greatest of all human dreams. For a transitory, enchanted moment, man must have held his breath in the presence of this continent, compelled into an aesthetic contemplation he neither understood nor desired. Face to face for the last time in history with something commensurate to his capacity for wonder. And it goes on. But this, you know, you can see there why this is so quintessentially an American novel. A novel where even think of explorers finding the continent for the first time. The wonder that it inspired, the potential it presented to humanity. But you also see there, Fitzgerald's lyrical expression talking about the world as this great green new place, filling man with wonderful.

[Scott Bertram]

Let's expound on that a little bit. What does the Great Gatsby say about America? Something essential about America that perhaps helps to enhance its literary value.

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Yeah, a couple of things. One is certainly I've already mentioned that Gatsby is a man driven by dreams. And so this is something we could talk about is, of course, the American dream and what that means. The novel is certainly involved with dreaming. But then also, I think one of the really important features of the novel, in fact, is youth, youthfulness and the sense of potential. So the sort of sense of growing strength and ability to act. And then the question of how do you use your strength? How do you act? What are you driven by? What are you moving towards? And all of that, I think, is really consciously presented in the novel. And it's a really rich expression, I think. Of, you know, America in the 20s there, at the beginning of the American century.

[Scott Bertram]

How much of the Great Gatsby's greatness. Now, you mentioned earlier, we never quite get inside Gatsby's head. It's told by a different narrator how much of the greatness of the book lies in what it suggests to the reader rather than what it explicitly tells us.

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Yeah, it is a novel that. Well, just to remind listeners, first of all, it's a very short novel.

[Scott Bertram]

Novel.

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Yes, it's a. It's a quick read. I mean, I think you could read it in five hours or less. It's a day at the beach. Yeah. Yeah, that's great Gatsby. No, that. That's exactly right. Great summer reading. And it's a story that moves along. And so the. Yeah, it's. It's not a novel that lectures you. Instead, it moves by light and lyrical touches. And so part of the greatness is that it doesn't belabor a point. Instead, you. You end up, I think, contemplating with Fitzgerald what it means to be young, to be moved by dreams and to be moved by memories and the way in which memories and dreams shape and direct human actions.

[Scott Bertram]

The brevity of the novel is 200 pages or so around there, depending on the edition, of course. Does that brevity say something about the book? I mean, you could have gone on for 400, 600. So many great books are much longer than this. What does the brevity say about the Great Gatsby?

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Yeah, well, it's one of the things about it, again, as I'm talking, it's sort of representatively American. It does have this quality of being a fable, and I think that is important in relation to its brevity. Right. Fables. Aesop doesn't go on for so long, and Fitzgerald doesn't hear either. I think that that's actually contributory to its greatness as a book, is that its form and its content work together. So its brevity of length, it contributes to its sort of fable quality. And that also works in tandem with its lyrical quality to give you this punchy, poignant, brief vision of a thing.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking with Dr. Ben Whalen, Associate professor of English here at Hillsdale College, about the Great Gatsby. There are various themes here. We'll explore. Explore a few more in detail in future conversations, but we have illusion, we have hope, we have disillusionment. What are the themes here in the Great Gatsby that helps give the book its staying power?

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Well, first of all, the story is Simply one of a sort of tragic pursuit, a tragic effort to recreate a love affair that had occurred. And it's just sort of doomed to failure. And so there's this sense of the inability to recreate the past or, or simply to live in the past. At the same time, the sense that you cannot escape your past and that your past informs and shapes and directs who you are. And so there's a tension there between moving forward and, and moving backward. And that sort of, that sort of difficulty or that sort of state is part of the human condition. I think we, we all just know this. To be human is to be both moving forward through time. We're temporal creatures and to be bearing the memory of, of where we've been and, and. And what we've done. And so that it touches some of the most fundamental elements and touches so in a. In a conscious way, so that you really think about what it means to be a temporally existing, forward moving, but, but backward looking sort of creature.

[Scott Bertram]

Disagree if you wish. It seems to me that the Great Gatsby has become one of the most striking sort of pieces of art reflecting the Roaring Twenties here in America. Why has the aesthetic of the book and the aesthetic of the Roaring Twenties become so synonymous?

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Yeah, that's absolutely, absolutely true. I completely agree. It is representative. If we think of the Roaring Twenties, I think we might think of sort of America's burgeoning industrial and banking might. Certainly this is true. We could think also not just of the Roaring Twenties, but the twenties known as the Jazz Age, the Age of Flappers. Fitzgerald has a great short story titled Bernice Bobs Her Hair. So we could think of women cutting their hair short and flappers and dancing. The Jazz Age, this is the interwar period. So we have America here before the Great Depression, which comes in 1929. We have this sort of optimism after World War I and great sort of youthful energy of this sort of newly triumphant country. So, yeah, the Jazz Age, the Roaring Twenties. Fitzgerald captures all of that. One of the features listeners will remember is that Jay Gatsby buys this enormous mansion and hosts huge, splendid, lavish parties regularly. And those are, you know, important for the plot and for what Jay Gatsby intends. But they're also, I think, representative of this sense of the Jazz Age party. And everyone comes in and there's music and singing and all sorts of eccentricities and wildness that's good and bad and some of it quite immoral. But you have this, this sort of exuberant expression of youthfulness there.

[Scott Bertram]

What do you think or what do you notice that perhaps young readers take away from the Great Gatsby that older generations might overlook, and perhaps vice versa. What do older readers appreciate from the Great Gatsby?

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Yeah, it's funny to talk about this as I'm getting older and reading it again and finding I really do, I really admire Fitzgerald's ability here to write a novel that is just inherently youthful. And so I think young people, do they attach to it or they're attracted to it, they identify with different elements in it. And yet as I've gotten older, I really think Fitzgerald does have a sort of mature sensibility here in reflecting on aging and on memory and these dreams. And so I think older readers who come to the novel again, and I encourage readers really, you'll find it delightful and easy. It's a great beach reading. But I think older readers will find it expresses, well, a sort of nostalgia for youth the young themselves can't really have. So that would be appropriate for older, older readers. Whereas younger readers, I think, find the sort of excitement of youth and strength and wealth and potential expressed there very well that they, I think, would naturally gravitate towards.

[Scott Bertram]

Did you see the 2013 the film?

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

I did.

[Scott Bertram]

Leonardo DiCaprio. Did it capture the novel?

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Well?

[Scott Bertram]

What'd you think?

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Yeah. In fact, there, Luhrmann, even in his use of colors and the way in which the the film, some of its different shots and it moves even through curtains, et cetera, that actually, I think is a very nice translation of Fitzgerald's lyrical style in his prose into the visual medium. So, yeah, I did admire the movie. I thought it did a nice job of both capturing the lyricism of the story and then also the grandeur, the sort of splendid nature of Gatsby's house and the parties that go on.

[Scott Bertram]

Dr. Benedict Whelan is associate professor of English here at Hillsdale College as we talk about the Great Gatsby from F. Scott Fitzgerald as it celebrates its 100th birthday in 2025. Dr. Whelan, thanks for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[Dr. Benedict Whelan]

Thanks for having me, Scott.

[Scott Bertram]

Up next, we talk with Julianne hillock, class of 1991 and recent honoree at the Hillsdale Alumni Association Awards Banquet. More on that next next. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

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[Scott Bertram]

We're back on the radio Free Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertrand. Be sure to follow us on X. We're Hillsdale Radio and the Hillsdale College Podcast Podcast Network. We're joined by Julianne Hillock. She is a class of 1991 graduate of Hillsdale College, recently receiving an award for Outstanding Achievement in Education, the Hillsdale College Alumni Association. Originally from Maine, she's the founding principal of Hojo Academy, a Hillsdale College member school in Gallup, New Mexico. A bachelor's degree in English from Hillsdale College, a master's in school leadership from Harvard University's Graduate School of Education. Julianne, thanks so much for joining us.

[Julianne Hillock]

Thank you for having me.

[Scott Bertram]

Did you ever think you'd end up leading a school in Gallup, New Mexico? What drew you there?

[Julianne Hillock]

In the end, I can say with 100% certainty I never expected to be leading a school in Gallup, New Mexico. In fact, I often comment on the idea that I live in a very remote area on a dirt road with no Internet, no telephone lines, no mail. And I can honestly say I never expected to live in this sort of environment doing this type of work. But it's been a unique journey here and it all comes down to Hillsdale College. So I was a teacher of students with special needs and I decided I wanted to be a principal and lead a school because I really felt the need that to address some of those the issues that were facing the most vulnerable people in our school community, and that's typically the special ed department, kids with special needs. And so I went back to school because I wanted to know how to do this well and found my way back to a Classical Model School being the best model for all kids and connected with Hillsdale, the K12 office again. And we. We were talking about opening up a school in Maine, and that didn't get legs under it, as I expected. And then was told about a position in Gallup, Mexico, where they were looking for a school leader and would I come speak to the board. So I did, and just felt like I was being called to be here and been here. This is year eight.

[Scott Bertram]

Year eight. Can you tell us a bit about the school itself, where it's located in New Mexico? And, you know, how would you describe Hojo Academy to someone who's never been there, which is most of our audience?

[Julianne Hillock]

So Gallup, New Mexico, is in the northwest corner of New Mexico, very close, within 15, 20 minutes of the Arizona border. It's on the border of the Navajo Nation. So most of the students that attend Hojo Academy are Native American. A majority of them are Navajo, some Zuni, other tribes as well. It's a very small, isolated community surrounded with. By reservation in the high desert area. So it can be quite remote. It's about two hours in any direction to a town that would be bigger than our town, which is about 20,000 people. And so. And the name, Hojo Academy, Navajo word that means beauty. It's the striving for beauty through balance and harmony with the natural world and with humanity and all living things. So it's a very special word. Doesn't have a direct translation into English, but it really resonates with the classical model that we're trying to bring to Gallup, New Mexico. We opened in 2018. We had about 110 students, and we have 870 right now, and between 2 to 400 on the wait list at any given time. So it's a really remarkable place, and I feel really blessed to get to be the leader of this school in Gallup.

[Scott Bertram]

Was there a moment after you arrived at Hojo Academy, when you knew that it was working, that you could feel that that was the reason you came, that everything was falling into place?

[Julianne Hillock]

I long for those moments, and they do come from time to time. But in general, it's hard work. It's just hard work to start a charter school and anywhere. And New Mexico, I think, is particularly difficult. There's a lot of scrutiny and a lot of challenges. And, you know, I. I can say that at times. I. I can see the light, and I feel like, oh, this we're. I'm so grateful for this opportunity to do this work here, because I can see things Coming together and I can see things working out. But on the day to day basis, it is very difficult. But I think, you know, that's true with most things that are great and wonderful. It's not without its challenge. And it requires the hard work for somebody to put into it for you to see the fruit. It doesn't come. There's nothing quick about that process. You really have to put the work in to get the fruit.

[Scott Bertram]

How do you go from 100 students to, I think you said almost 900 students with a waiting list in seven years, work in Gallup, New Mexico.

[Julianne Hillock]

The strange thing about that is the first year we didn't. We had a small building and no sign out front. And then the second year was Covid and we were completely shut down. The third year was Covid shut down. And we continued to add approximately 100 students every year. We didn't have a sign, I don't think, until 21, the year 21. So it was like three, four years in before we even had a sign identify. We couldn't have a pizza delivered. We tried and nobody could find us. And yet students were finding us. And it was all through word of mouth. Parents could see there was something different about what we were offering. And it has been a little elusive. To really narrow that down, I'll ask parents, what is it about our school that you love and why do you want your child here? And really, most often, what parents say, I get a feeling when I come in here that this is what I want for my child. And you can't really put it into words because it's more than just the, the reading and writing and the content. And it, it's a whole thing that's much bigger than just the academics. They can see it when we do our assembly. They can see how we honor each other, how we honor our, our country, how we are committed to excellence and everything that we take on. And so that, that's something that parents have been connecting with since we opened.

[Scott Bertram]

The student body at Hojo Academy, I believe, is 60% Native American. And you have students every morning saying the pledge in four different languages. I talked to someone who has seen it and said it's extremely powerful. How did that tradition come about at the school?

[Julianne Hillock]

So, yes, every day we gather the entire student body and we've done that since the very first day of school. And we would say the pledge. And we also have the students recite the preamble to the constitution. They're introduced to classical music and art. At that time, they have to identify the different things they see in here, they recite poetry. And so it's a whole program of connecting together as a K12 school, which can be a challenge for the different grade levels. And. And so that's something that we can do together as a K12 school. Every day. We wanted to connect and celebrate all the different cultures that are represented in our school. And so we have students lead the pledge every day in Navajo, in Zuni, in Spanish and English. And at one point we thought, well, we'll just pick a day and we'll say, today's English, tomorrow's Navajo. The next day we'll do Spanish. But it does seem to be more inclusive and more powerful when we do all four every day. And we start off the day acknowledging that we are e pluribasuna and we've come from many different backgrounds and have many different things to offer and share, and we'll celebrate those things and connect together over those things.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking with Julianne Hillock. She is a class of 1991 graduate of Hillsdale College, recently receiving the outstanding alumni Award for achievement in Education. How did Hillsdale help make this happen? What part of your Hillsdale experience perhaps gave you the courage or the tools to take this leap and move out to New Mexico?

[Julianne Hillock]

Well, it was all Hillsdale College because it was a meeting that I had in the K12 office, and they indicated that there was a school that needed a leader, and it was a unique opportunity. So when I went and spoke to the board and felt like I was called to do it, I could never imagine trying to do this work in this area with these challenges without the support of Hillsdale College. Hillsdale College has been there with me side by side all through this whole journey and providing support to me, to my staff, and not just to tell us what to do and how to do it, but to be there to celebrate with us and to be there to work through those challenges together, providing ideas, coming out and visiting with the students, with the students, and making us feel connected to the overall mission of the K12 office and the K12 overall mission of classical education nationwide. I really could not imagine taking this challenge on without all that support, and I'm very grateful for it.

[Scott Bertram]

What about your time as a student here at Hillsdale? Any professors or moments that you look back on now and say, well, that that probably planted some seed that helped me be what I am today?

[Julianne Hillock]

You know, I think about that time I had at Hillsdale, and I still tell the students today, like, that time 18 to 22 is such a time of growth for someone to become a young person from high school to a full fledged adult ready to take their place in the world. And I'm so grateful to Hillsdale for all of the things that I learned and all the opportunities that were provided to me. I probably couldn't find one particular person or thing because everything was so connected. But I have shared that. Being in a sorority, being the president of that sorority house of PI Beta Phi. Honestly, it was such a time, a stretch for me to learn how to be a leader. I could not do leading a school if I hadn't learned those painful lessons and difficult lessons. And I was learning those lessons about how to be a leader in the PI Fi house. Well, going to listen to Dr. Connor talk about history and leaders in history and how they've had challenges and how they've overcome challenges and what they've done. And then I was an English major, so all through literature, learning about humanity and how humans respond to each other. So all of those things together really set me on the path to one day be able to do this work here in Gallatin, Mexico. Even though it's, you know, so many years later, those lessons are still really prevalent in my life.

[Scott Bertram]

For those who have an interest in classical education, K12 education, and perhaps bringing it to their community or helping it spread across the country, what kind of lessons or inspiration do you think, think they can take from what you've done?

[Julianne Hillock]

So before taking on the, this principalship and thinking about classical education, as I mentioned, it was, it's the idea that it is the model that serves all people. Education can be a very progressive area where people are trying new ideas and they think this will work or that will work. And as we can see, the achievement gap just gets wider and wider and wider. And really what we need to do is come back to these. The notion of what is it, what is the purpose of education? And it's to liberate, it's to free people, it's to set them on the course to find their purpose in life, to understand what it means to be a human and how to be a good human being. It isn't just how many, how many points can they score on a test or what can they do as far as a job or a total utilitarian approach to education, putting us on some track to be functional in society. It's this bigger idea that there's more to us and that we require more and engage more. Through time, through culture, through different content areas, we come to understand what does it mean to be a human being? What is my role in this world? And how do I set myself on a path to be the very best person that I can be? And if that's what you think education should do, then classical education is the answer.

[Scott Bertram]

Julianne Hillock is a class of 1991 graduate from Hillsdale College, recently receiving an award for outstanding achievement in education from the Alumni association here, and also founding principal of HOJO Academy, a Hillsdale College member school in Gallup, New Mexico. Julianne, thanks so much for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[Julianne Hillock]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Scott Bertram]

That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to Dr. Mark Moyer and Dr. Ben Whalen from here at Hillsdale College and Julianne Hillock from Hillsdale's Class of 1991. Remember, you can hear new episodes every week on this station. You also can find extended versions of some of our interviews or listen anytime to the podcast. Find it at Podcast Hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube. Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram, and this has been the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.