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- [00:06]
Dr. Ben Beyer
From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught, nurtured and honored. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners across the country.
- [00:25]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
I do think there's a tendency post 2020 when so many public institutions failed us, there is a tendency assume that every single person is not telling you the truth. But I can see that it's a very tough job for people to try to figure out what's real and what's not.
- [00:41]
Scott Bertram
This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. That was Mary Kathryn Hamm, host of the Getting Hammered and Normally podcasts, also writer at Fox News and Outkick. We'll go in depth with her on a number of subjects in just a moment. Also, later on in today's program, Ben Byer from Hillsdale's Education department will discuss the new online course, Classical Logic and Rhetoric. First, we're joined by Mary Kathryn Ham. She's the host of a couple of podcasts, Getting Hammered. And normally you can find her writing in places like FoxNews.com, outkick and elsewhere. Also on X Khammer, and she is our Pulliam Fellow this term here at Hillsdale College, giving a public lecture here and teaching some of our journalism students. Mary Kathryn, thanks so much for joining us.
- [01:30]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
- [01:32]
Scott Bertram
Good to have a discussion. You've been doing lots of things in media for lots of years, starting in blogging, television writing, podcasting. Does it feel the same? Does it feel like things have shifted substantially underneath you, or do you still feel like you're doing similar things to 15 years ago?
- [01:50]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Well, the format keeps changing, but I am comfortable with change. And I think that's one of the things that prepares you for a media career, if you want to attempt one, because the landscape is going to shift in large ways while you're doing it. I think certainly in my arc of 20 years, I came out of school and got a job fairly easily as a daily newspaper reporter in a small town in America. That is not a job, unfortunately, that really exists anymore, except on very rare occasions. And I think it's a really good job for journalists to have because you have to plug yourself into a new community. You have to be a jack of all trades. You have to lay out pages and go to the courthouse and make friends with cops and all of the things, and you don't have that job anymore. And I think that is a problem, because journalists need a way station where they have to do stuff like that. Instead of going straight from an elite university journalism school, for instance, to an elite newsroom, you miss a lot of the steps in there. So I mourn that. That does not ex. And I think you have to find other ways to be in touch with the audience you're supposed to be covering if you don't get to do that part of it. So that part's obviously changed. And you have to be more proactive about making sure that you know what you're talking about.
- [03:08]
Scott Bertram
You've done this. I've done this covering local city council, local school board meetings and county board, and talking to police officers and fire commissioners about stories that are happening daily in a community. What are those skills that are lost or missed out on without that kind of experience inside journalism?
- [03:27]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Well, I think, and you know, frankly, my career now sort of, I don't practice what I preach. Like, do I pay enough attention to my state politics and my local politics? Probably not, because I'm, you know, by virtue of my vocation, paying attention to federal politics a lot. But those things really matter. Right? And I think everybody realized that all of a sudden, perhaps round about this time in 2020, when suddenly their city council or their county commissioners or their school board had a lot more control over their daily lives than they realized they did and often didn't make great decisions. So I think understanding the scaffolding and understanding the powers of the people who are local to you is a really important thing for a civically engaged person. I've gotten better about it since 2020. And also for someone who aspires to be a journalist, I think you need to understand what those levels of power are, what they mean, what kinds of things can go wrong for people. You know, you'd be amazed what kind of stupid laws state legislatures can pass that they've never considered the second order effects of. And then those effects happen to real people. And so there need to be people who keep an eye on that. And frankly, there are holes all over the place left by major metro dailies that I think a lot of people who have a little bit of gumption in the ability to file a FOIA request can actually get a lot of attention if they start paying attention to those mechanisms. But yeah, it takes a little confidence, it takes a little willingness to buck people in power, and sometimes it takes real volunteer time because there aren't always jobs for that. However it can, I think it can lead to a job because people will
- [05:13]
Scott Bertram
notice what you're doing in this new media environment landscape. Do you think to the consumer that credibility means the same thing that it used to, or is it now, oh, this person is the loudest, has the most clicks, has the most followers, therefore he or she must be credible?
- [05:32]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Yeah, it depends because I think, yes, there are many things incentivize being louder or more extreme. That's just real. You know, if I were on X ranting more frequently or may more crazily in either direction, by the way, I could go left or I could go right. I would get more clicks and I would get more money and I would get more notice. And there's various places I've worked where I knew, you know, if I toe this line, I'll get more opportunities. Right. So credibility to me as someone in the industry and something I think that students need to think about if they go into it is I had to set up guardrails for myself. And I always thought, well, I'll be very flexible on the way I deliver what I'm producing, but I will not be flexible about my own values and telling the truth and trying to be an honest broker. Now I'm an honest broker with a point of view, but I make that clear to people as I'm doing it. I do think there's a tendency post 2020, when so many public institutions failed us and were not credible. There is a tendency to assume that every single person is not telling you the truth. And that can become a problem in and of itself if you go all the way to the other end. But I concede that it's a very tough job for people to try to figure out what's real and what's not. That actually becomes a vocation for anyone who wants to be a civically engaged person and takes up quite a bit of time. And you want to find those people who aren't necessarily extreme, will tell you the truth, will sometimes tell you things you don't want to hear. I think that's an important part of the practice as well, is to proactively test your own priors and have people either in your circle or in your algorithm that are telling you things you're like, that's not in my gut. I'm not agreeing with that, but let me explore it. Right. That makes you a stronger thinker and you want to look for those media figures who surprise you.
- [07:27]
Scott Bertram
Frankly, I do advise students that when they're figuring out who they're following on X or whatever, social media platform doesn't have to be a lot but find four or five people who you have serious disagreements with, good faith disagreements that you know will be telling the truth about the other side.
- [07:46]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Well, and I think maybe part of the issue is these days, because good faith disagreement is not necessarily rewarded in the same way. You see less of it. And sometimes I fear that people don't even know what it is anymore. Right. And so you have to search out people who are not saying, this person has bad character because they disagree with me about a policy. Right. That's a, that's sort of a shorthand for it, but it can be, it can be difficult to find. And a lot of the institutions that lost credibility, including basically all of the legacy media during that Covid era slash woke peak Woke years from 2020 to 2023, they never reckoned with that or Russiagate or anything. They never sort of said, oh yes, we did mess that up. And so as a person who would like to have credibility, I attempt on a regular basis to say, oh, that was something I was wrong about. Let me admit that I was wrong about that and think about how I might approach it differently in the future. And I think a lot of institutions do not do enough of that.
- [08:47]
Scott Bertram
Mary Kathryn Ham is with us. Find her on X Khammer two podcasts you host Getting Hammered. And normally I want to talk about each of them actually, because they're different. Getting Hammered. Vic Matis is your co host for that. How did that come about? What's your goal in getting hammered?
- [09:03]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Well, speaking of media evolution, Vic Matis and I have been friends since we were writers at a magazine together at the Weekly Standard. And he's great on Mike. And he's also a person who is interested in food and wine and movies and entertainment and books and he can talk about culture. So I wanted to have a partner doing that job that could do things other than politics because, you know, I spend a lot of time talking about politics, but I want to sort of mix it up on other things as well. And so we cut, we do a news show, but we try to keep it good humored, we try to keep it honest, we try to correct ourselves and we try to have a good time while we're doing it. I do think there is a market for news that doesn't drive your blood pressure through the roof and is keeping you informed, but is also, I don't know, having a joke or two involved. There is, there is merit in entertaining people through all the chaos and trying to, trying to get them up to date. So that's, that's what we attempt to do at getting hammered. And, you know, once every couple months we do a taste test of cocktails because you gotta be true to the name.
- [10:07]
Scott Bertram
Sure. Normally with Carol Markowitz, former podium fellow and former guest on this program. How long have you two known each other?
- [10:15]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Oh, gosh, we've known each other since probably over 20 years. When we first came into the business, we were both bloggers and we would meet at various meetups and realized, oh, we kind of have the same vibe. And we grew up together because she and I were not married when we met. Now we're both married with several children, and she's of a group of women who I wish lived closer to me because I would so much love to parent in the same geographical region as these people. Because she's so analytical, she's so smart, she has the same approach to parenting as I do and is a great op ed writer. If you ever want to read Carol at the New York Post and elsewhere, she's fantastic. And she also is interested in culture and parenting. And so we'll write about those things or we'll talk about those things as well. We talked about a parent group in D.C. that blew up a couple of weeks ago because the group, the parenting group, was not active enough in its anti ice activism. And so a large part of the group was like, we got to get out of here and start our own group. To which I said, let let never these mom friends find me. I have a different style of mom friend and one of whom I do normally with.
- [11:26]
Scott Bertram
Do you feel podcasting is having a moment right now? Certainly. After the past president presidential election, do you connect with your audience in a different way when you are speaking to them as opposed to writing for them?
- [11:40]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
I think you do. So I was a morning radio host for a little while in Washington, D.C. and it is amazing to me these many years later because I think I didn't even have kids when I did that job, and I did it for a short period of time. But 15 years later, 12 years, whatever it is, people still come up to me in the D.C. area and say, I loved you on WMAL. Because when you're getting up with someone in the morning and you're connecting with them that way, and you're part of their morning routine that matters to people and they do feel a connection to you. And so I think podcasting has a lot of that vibe. We call getting hammered a morning show for any hour because it's the same thing. You want to be tuning in to people who you feel like actually like each other and that you would like to hang out with. So with both of my podcasts, that's the attempt because I think that is what people respond to. They want to be hanging out with you.
- [12:31]
Scott Bertram
Yep. I don't know if an op ed writer often will have readers approach them and ask to hug them when they meet, but if you do radio for any length of time, people want to hug you when they meet you. They feel like they know you.
- [12:46]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
It's a very. Yes, it is a very different connection, I think.
- [12:49]
Scott Bertram
Mary Kathryn Ham with us, host of Getting Hammered and normally you wrote a great book about 10 years ago, a little more than 10 years ago, called End of Discussion. Are you still working to change people's minds, or do you think most of your work now is talking to people who already essentially have the same point of view you do?
- [13:09]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
I like to attempt to engage other people. I think often if somebody's very, very political. Right. And is very entrenched in their views, maybe that's not the person you're going to reach. But there's a reason I go to college campuses. There's a reason I worked at cnn. I think there's value in trying to give our point of view, or my point of view to people who might not otherwise encounter it. And that is because, as I tell college students, often rooms need weirdos in them. You need somebody who disagrees, or else no one's views are tested and everyone gets lazy and everyone assumes that everyone agrees with them. And that's just not the case. And it shouldn't be the case in a pluralistic republic like we have. And so I like to do that. I will say, you know, it can get exhausting if you' if you're not engaged. I think, I think a lot of people think of talking about politics as sort of street preaching. Like, I'm just gonna yell my point of view at someone. And then at the end of that interaction, if I didn't get a conversion, then that's not a success. And it's like, let's maybe take it down a notch. Right? Like, let's be youth pastors. Let's not be street preachers. And, and we're making connections with people. And on small things, you're. They're going, all I'm looking to accomplish when I'm talking to someone who disagrees with me is, hey, we might agree a little bit here. And then I'm going to explain to you how we disagree. And perhaps that person will go, huh, I've never thought about it like that before. If you think about it that way, it makes it much lower stakes and much more human. Instead of just trying to win someone to your side at every second. I also suggest to college students often to find a good friend or someone you know fairly well who disagrees with you and do a book swap or an essay swap or even just an article, whatever it is, and then agree to talk about it for 20 minutes.
- [14:57]
Scott Bertram
Mary Kathryn Hamm is with us. Find her on X Khammer. We'll continue with her in just a moment. As we ramp up to the 250th birthday of America, I want to make sure you're aware of a brand new podcast here on the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. It's called Hillsdale on the Hill. This is your invitation to celebrate America's 250th anniversary with Dr. Matthew Spalding and other Hillsdale in D.C. professors. Co hosted with Larry O' Connor from WMAL Radio in Washington, D.C. we'll discover the historical and philosophical underpinnings of the Declaration, the American Revolution, American culture, and more. Join us for Hillsdale on the Hill. Find it at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube. We continue with Mary Kathryn Ham. Find her on X Khammer. You can read her at Fox News Outkick podcasts as well. Mary Catherine, do you have a normal person in your life? What I mean is my wife plays this role. She is not as connected as I am. She is not in the news flow, not as much of the news. I will use her like, do you know about this story? What have you heard about this story? Is that a big deal? Do you have a normal person in your life?
- [16:15]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Yes. So Carol and I both have normie husbands and they are less engaged in the day to day than we are. But they are, I would say above average informed, but they are less plugged into politics. I also have a group of mom friends who are again, intelligent, many of them military spouses. Really interesting people have lived really interesting lives, but not necessarily riding the wave of news all the time. And so I do use them as sort of an informal focus group and they use me to go, hey, do you have five minutes to explain this thing to me?
- [16:47]
Scott Bertram
That's how I know when something truly, truly has broken through in a major way. It's when she comes to me and asks me about something I don't have to ask her about. She what is it? I heard about this and I don't understand it. What is this? That's how I know that something has really broken through to a majority of people.
- [17:05]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Well, and I always joke that people who pay attention to politics are not normal. We are odd and we're like people who watch every single day of a soap opera or every episode of wwe and we know exactly what all the conflicts are and what all the backstories are. And we're yelling at people all the time like everything important is happening every day. And they're like, I don't know if anything important is happening. And then every four years they'll tune in and do whatever it is that they do. I take pride in being sort of normie adjacent. You know, I try to stay humble. You know, that's why I had all these kids. So that I live in a high cost of living area with four children and can't get too big for my britches and surround myself with people who have normal concerns and normal jobs. Because it is very easy to get completely in the weeds and not know how to communicate to normal people, which is what I want to do. I want to be the filter between the crazy and the overwhelming news and normal people.
- [18:03]
Scott Bertram
Mary Kathryn Ham with us. That book, end of discussion, co written with Guy Benson. The subhead was how the Left Makes America Less Free and Less Fun and the idea of this outrage industry. Nora Rothman over at National Review has a ongoing feature now that he calls the War on Fun and has written an essay for the magazine about that. I think back to 2024 and I wonder if it was an inflection point on this. On this exact point, Meaning people started realizing, wait, you're actively trying to make my life worse in different ways. Lower standard of living, less fun. I have to worry about this. I can't tell a joke. Can I laugh at that joke? All of these policies and prescriptions are making my life worse.
- [18:49]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Yeah, I think people felt that. I think there was a period of time between 2020 and 23, especially when people were being told things that were sort of obviously absurd, like that 2 year olds should be wrestled into masks for an entire school day, or that 7 year olds should be on zoom for an entire school day and that would be okay for them. Or that boys can be girls and girls can be boys and criminals should all be let out and that that will make actually everyone safer. I mean, it's just they were. They were patently absurd things that you were being told, but you were also being told. If you think these absurd things are absurd or you try to argue against them at all, there's something wrong with you. You should be an outcast in society. And that was the part that really got people and sort of the enforced speech like silence is violence. Which is why, by the way, that it's hard to find a candidate who didn't say all these things because they told them silence something.
- [19:43]
Scott Bertram
Yeah.
- [19:43]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
And so, so, yeah, I think there was a, there was a revolt against that that was quite delayed. I thought after 2020 that the comeuppance would come quickly and it didn't. It took a couple years for people to metabolize and go, wait, wait a second, what are we doing here? And I'm still surprised how far it got. But Donald Trump ended up being the backlash once again. It sort of embodied in a person and I do think there were cultural gains from that of a bunch of people realizing, oh, I guess, I guess we can't do this 2020 thing anymore. Although I will point out that the giant controversy, which was not a real controversy over the American hockey team and the four second interaction they had with Donald Trump was an attempt to relive 2020. And a bunch of normies said, nope, we're not going to do that. We're happy about Double Gold. The women on the women's team said, nope, we're not going to do that. We're going to talk about our accomplishments. The men said, nope, we're not going to do that. We had a great relationship with the women and we're very excited that they won as well. And then it just kind of dissipated because they couldn't get their sacrificial lamb right.
- [20:52]
Scott Bertram
They couldn't move it forward because the women wouldn't say anything to push it forward.
- [20:56]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
But the desire remains. So you have to be on watch for it. As Guy Benson and I always say about end of discussion. It's still relevant, which is great for us, but bad for America.
- [21:08]
Scott Bertram
Are you encouraged by anything in particular that you see happening in the media today? We've talked here in the department about the Washington Post or the op ed page shifting its strategy and shifting its vision and mission. Of course, Bari Weiss at CBS is trying new things. Are you encouraged by maybe a few things out in the media landscape?
- [21:29]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Yeah, I think the first of all, I don't have rose colored glasses about the old days with three networks and three major newspapers would tell you everything. I think, I think that was a bad way of doing things and it was biased. Then the fractured nature of media makes it harder to figure out what's going on sometimes. But you also have Access to, oh, I don't know, the entirety of a speech that would have been translated through the AP in the past. Right. So you can go listen to that. And you have to make yourself do those things sometimes. But I do like the whole heterodox crew that was put together by Bari Weiss at the Free Press. I love, like the David Zweigs of the world who reported on masks and actually sort of got his. Fought his way into some mainstream coverage of that and got that news out. People who are of the left but criticize the left's sort of moral outrages or trends. Jesse Singel is another one who, look, I'm not going to agree with him on like probably 60% of issues, but when he's reporting responsibly on gender transition and science and how this is being done in hospitals and in schools or as public policy, I want to listen to that. So I think that whole crew being given platforms and having been successful, whether they're center, right or left, makes me happy. And I think, I think those are people who have earned some trust, particularly if you see it on the right or the left. Someone who's. Who goes after their own side and takes some slings and arrows from that side. Not on everything, because there are some people who go after their own side as a profession. But I think when someone's taken slings and arrows in that way they can be more trustworthy because you know, they're standing up for something.
- [23:10]
Scott Bertram
There are discussions and conversations and in some places actually laws that have been passed by politicians to address the decline in journalism. So via tax credits or we'll help you hire someone where there's actual money flowing from the government into the world of journalism. Does journalism need saving in that way?
- [23:33]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
The problem is that journalism is populated by a bunch of people who don't understand how free markets work and don't like free markets. So that's part of it. I think a lot of the economic incentives, unfortunately are bad and don't align with creating necessarily good journalism. Because if you're doing fan service and base service, you're not necessarily creating good journalism. That's why I think Bari Weiss has ended up at somewhere like CBS and gotten the nod, is because she creates things that are clickable but not crazy. And that is the sort of sweet spot. I think the Bezos Washington Post went too far in the fan service of the left during Trump won and then didn't know what to do with itself afterwards. So you have to find some sort of sustainable model. I don't think getting government money is the sustainable model. I know that our friends on the left believe that government money is, you know, inexhaustible and lasts forever, but that's not actually how that works. If you look at npr, for instance, and Corporation for Public Broadcasting at the moment, they are learning, oh, maybe we should have made our own way. Right now, how you make your own way is pretty tricky because it's hard to get people to pay for news. What you have to get them to pay for instead is recipes and games, which is what the New York Times has done and actually is a return to the old style of newspaper. Because when you picked up a newspaper in the past, you were buying a package to which news was attached, but you were probably there for the comics and the classifieds and the circular with the, with the grocery coupons in it. And so there have to be these packages that can go together that create something that is at least medium sustainable. And actually some of journalism is going to be a charity project by rich people. And some of that's okay too. Or donors. Donor sustained.
- [25:17]
Scott Bertram
You've been with our students in the class for about a week. What have you learned from them so far?
- [25:23]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
So we've been talking a bit about media literacy and how you think through these things. Because, you know, in coming into teaching a class, I thought, you know, maybe, maybe what to do is think about when I'm overwhelmed, what is the way that I sort through information? Because I think that moving forward, for anyone who wants to be engaged, that's going to be the question is how do I decide what is important and how do I filter through what is trustworthy and what is not? So I've been talking to them about how they consume news. And the thing I've learned about people younger than I am, and particularly college students and a little bit older, is that a lot of their news consumption is incidental and they need to make it intentional if they want to keep doing this. And I get it. Some of my stuff is incidental too. My algorithm gets filled with hockey when I get mad about the hockey story and click on a bunch of hockey things. Right. So you have to be aware of that and you have to learn how to correct for it. And it takes energy. But I think that's the main thing is like, we all are in a world in which the algorithm wants to push us into passive consumption and you have to make it active.
- [26:34]
Scott Bertram
Yeah. Again, I don't want to say there's rose colored glasses for the days of yore, but the one nice thing about having a broadsheet newspaper in front of you was you would accidentally stumble upon news that you didn't know you either wanted or needed to know. That's much, much tougher in the way that news is delivered these days.
- [26:52]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Yes, I think that's the fact. And, and yeah, you have to, again, you have to populate your own feeds with things that are sometimes vegetables instead of just the stuff that's, that's given you the dopamine hit. And you have to train yourself to frankly research and read more. And I, you know, obviously Hillsdale is a place that's training people to do that, but I think many are losing the ability to take a long form piece of journalism and digest that a novel which are, you know, falling out of, falling out of fashion when it comes to teaching, even literature classes in high schools across this country. So practicing the old ways is important.
- [27:30]
Scott Bertram
Mary Kathryn Ham, find her on X Khammer. She's the host of Getting Hammered, the podcast and normally the podcast with Carol Markowitz. Find her writing in various places as well. And we thank her for being here on campus. Our Pulliam fellow for this term. She's giving a public lecture and also teaching many of our journalism students these couple of weeks. Mary Kathryn Hamm, thanks so much for joining us here on the radio Free Hillsdale Hour.
- [27:53]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
Thank you so much. It's a blast to be here with these promising students. They really are great.
- [27:57]
Scott Bertram
Up next, we talk with Dr. Benjamin Beyer, chairman and associate professor of education here at Hillsdale College and your teacher for the new online course, Classical Logic and Rhetoric. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Charlie Kirk understood that before he could lead, he needed to learn. He didn't need a degree, but he
- [28:27]
Mary Kathryn Hamm
did need a teacher.
- [28:28]
Bill Gray
Hillsdale College was there to teach him
- [28:31]
Scott Bertram
wherever and whenever he wanted to learn. Charlie took many of Hillsdale's free online courses studying the classics, the American founding and the Bible. And you can learn like Charlie at Hillsdale Edu Network. That's Hillsdale Edu Network. Charlie Kirk strengthened his knowledge and courage by studying the greatest thinkers, writers and leaders of history, all with Hillsdale College. Visit Hillsdale Edu Network and you too can learn like Charlie. That's Hillsdale Edu Network.
- [29:18]
Bill Gray
Hi there, it's Bill Gray from Hillsdale College. Before you skip ahead, can I ask you a question or two? If you could teach 50 million Americans one thing, what would it be? Would you teach our great American story that this nation is unique, founded on self government and individual liberty. Maybe you would teach the truth about free enterprise, how hard work and opportunity allow anyone to rise. Or would you teach the gospel and the Christian faith that helps us live good and meaningful lives? At Hillsdale College, we're doing exactly that. Teaching the best that's been thought and said. Through our free online courses, K12 programs, Imprimis, podcasts and more. We reach and teach millions every year with the principles of liberty that make America free. And with your help, we can reach even more. Your tax deductible gift today will help us teach millions more people to pursue truth and defend liberty. Just text the word give to 7 1844. You'll get a secure link to make your donation in seconds. That's give to 718 44. Thank you for standing with us. Now back to the show.
- [30:35]
Scott Bertram
Welcome back. Welcome back to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertram. Be sure to check us out on X Hillsdale Radio. We're also podcasts for the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. We're joined by Dr. Ben Beyer. He is chairman and associate professor of education here at Hillsdale College. Also your teacher for the brand new online course Classical Logic and Rhetoric. You can find it at Hillsdale. Eduardo, new course. Dr. Beyer, thanks for joining us.
- [31:07]
Dr. Ben Beyer
Thanks so much for having me.
- [31:08]
Scott Bertram
Good to talk to you once again. Also under contract, we should point out for a textbook on the subject Logic with Classical Academic Press. Now, here at Hillsdale College, every student is required to take Logic and Rhetoric. Why is that course considered so essential, not just academically, but of course to being fully human.
- [31:28]
Dr. Ben Beyer
Oh, thanks, Scott. It's great to be with you. I think that logic and rhetoric is important to being fully human because all of us use words. We're all ever debating about right and wrong in the assembly, as Aristotle would have it. It's just in our nature. But we need to study these things because while we naturally move the tongue, use words, we have to become who we are. As Pindar put it that we, we have a potential to use these things well, but we have to grow into it.
- [32:02]
Scott Bertram
Now, when people hear logic, they might imagine complicated symbols, abstract philosophy. What's logic really? And how do we use it already in our everyday life?
- [32:14]
Dr. Ben Beyer
Yes. So we use logic constantly. Anytime you use the word because you're giving a reason why and why. One of the ways in the course that I talk about logic is it's the art and science of giving reasons. So logic is a little bit like the slow motion replay that you slow down and put in the freeze Frame and see what is the reason being offered and is it sufficient evidence and then hopefully having watched the game film, you can go out and be more logical the next time around.
- [32:48]
Scott Bertram
You talk in the course about slowing down, examining how we think, the acts of apprehension and judgment and reasoning. Why is that slowing down? The instant replay, as you point out, so important in our, in our fast moving culture.
- [33:02]
Dr. Ben Beyer
I think there's a growing consensus among thoughtful people. I think there's also a growing body of scientific evidence that we're distracted, we're harried, we're lonely, we're unhappy. And so I think that we've got to find ways to unplug. I have a colleague who teaches a class wherein he makes the students do technology fasts. Probably not something to mention on a radio program. And the results, to hear students talk about the results is really striking that they in slowing down are able to just really reconnect with something powerful and important. I think some of us have this experience when the lights go out. Suddenly we have nothing to do but play a board game or gather around the wood burning stove. And there's something very human about slowing down. And so I hope that the study of logic can not only make us thoughtful out in that harried world, but help us gain an ability to rest, to be, to think, not just always, ever be doing, doing, doing.
- [34:12]
Scott Bertram
There's an aspect to that in which we forget what it was like until the lights go out, which happens somewhat frequently here in Hillsdale. We're in the middle of a whole bunch of nothing around here. But you do, you forget, oh, if I flip that switch, actually nothing will happen. I'm so used to something happening. And there are board games, books, ways that you then direct your attention immediately. These things that I had not considered in months perhaps that are available to me.
- [34:39]
Dr. Ben Beyer
Yeah, absolutely, that's so and so. There's so many good things that maybe we've lost track of, you know, gathering around the piano or grabbing a book. And ultimately I think, you know, this kind of space helps us really reconnect with ourself, with others and even with the other, with the divine.
- [34:58]
Scott Bertram
Dr. Ben Beyer with us. He's chairman and associate professor of education here at Hillsdale College, teacher for the new Hillsdale online course Classical Logic and Rhetoric. Find it at Hillsdale. Edu newcourse. Hillsdale. Edu newcourse. One of the key distinctions that you make is between validity and soundness in arguments. It kind of sounds the same to me. Explain that difference in simple terms. Why it matters in our debates and social medias and even family conversations.
- [35:32]
Dr. Ben Beyer
Yeah, great question. So Aristotle discovers that in categorical syllogisms you can disentangle form and matter. So that under. We'll take two arguments. Every dog is a cat. Every tree is a dog, therefore every tree is a cat. On the other hand, every tree is living. Every oak is a tree, therefore every oak is living. So actually, underneath those words, underneath that content, is the same form. And so in form, that is in validity, the conclusion follows necessarily in both of those arguments. But the first is absurd, right? The first is valid, but false. The second is valid and true. So if it's valid and true, it's sound. So some people make arguments that aren't even valid. And so it's good to be able to discover whether it's valid in that form and that structure or underpinning. But then I think where it can get really interesting is where you've got competing valid arguments that force you then into a consideration of soundness. Are the premises, are the reasons why here true or not true. And that really can then, I think, open up dialogue and debate and hopefully understanding. In the pursuit of the truth, we're
- [36:49]
Scott Bertram
constantly being persuaded, or attempted to be persuaded by advertisements, by news and entertainment, politicians, social media posts. How does studying logic, perhaps in this course and rhetoric, change the way that someone listens to and can evaluate those messages?
- [37:09]
Dr. Ben Beyer
Yeah, we are just inundated with messages from so many different people and places and things. And so I think that having a background in logic and rhetoric really can make one thoughtful that you, you have the advertisement on TV and it's telling you buy this because. Right, giving a reason why, because it will make you happy. And then you can, well, that could be put into a valid form, but, but will this really make me happy or not? So we can be, be thoughtful in sort of uncovering the arguments that are everywhere. And then also, you know, another thing that will happen is we'll often have our emotions stirred. And we talk in the course about how that's not inherently bad, but we sometimes, you know, a politician or an advertisement, right. Stirs up our emotions to cloud our judgment. And so to just feel yourself being stirred, you can become aware sort of, okay, someone's stirring me here, but now is my judgment being sharpened by the emotion I'm feeling? Or instead is my judgment being clouded? And so we can become really able to thoughtfully receive and respond to these constant discourses that are surrounding us and addressed to us.
- [38:31]
Scott Bertram
I talk to my students about their use of social media, especially because we have so many journalism students who are like, how do you get your news? Well, I like to look at my social media feeds and people are putting news in there, and I talk often about that. Need to verify, to use your logic, to know whether this is true or false. But developing that sense that I can trust this person or I can trust this information or that doesn't look right. I really got to go and I got to find a different source. I got to make sure that's true. Is that a skill that can be developed? Is that something that is tied into this discussion about logic?
- [39:06]
Dr. Ben Beyer
Oh, I think that's a great question. And I think that logic and rhetoric really can help us here because rhetoric is so attentive to matters of ethos that the person writing, the person speaking is always expressing his or her character. And we're always either thinking, okay, this is a trustworthy person or not. But of course, people can falsely present their character. They can present who they're not. So if you know how ethos works, if you know that someone is trying to indirectly present intelligence or good morals, then you can push on that and say, is this person intelligent? Is this person thoughtful? Is this person virtuous? So that rhetoric helps you receive information from unknown sources more thoughtfully and hopefully maybe even encourages you to break out of your feed and be a little bit more willing to leave the echo chamber and find many different sources that you can thoughtfully Sift.
- [40:16]
Scott Bertram
Talking with Dr. Ben Beyer. He's chairman and associate professor of education here at Hillsdale College, teaching you classical logic and rhetoric in our brand new online course at hillsdale. Edu newcourse. If we shift over to rhetoric, the art of persuasion, why isn't it enough just to have a true argument? Why does it matter so much the way we present that argument?
- [40:43]
Dr. Ben Beyer
This is a question that thinkers and practitioners have been trying to wrestle with for a long time. There's a pre Socratic philosopher. So Socrates dies in 399 BC, but someone who precedes him talks about the fist of logic and the palm of rhetoric. And so logic proceeds with fist like precision. It's valid or it's invalid. There's not much gray area there. But then that's sort of done in the abstract, not in a manner that's addressed to a person, but once it becomes interpersonal. Most people don't like to be pummeled with a fist. Most people like to be respected in their dignity. So that we need to open that fist, not leaving logic behind, but taking Those logical goods and with finesse, actually stand towards others in their dignity, in their humanity. And so rhetoric is able to give us that additional component that we're not just considering the true or false and the abstract, but we're actually living in community with others and trying to talk to one another.
- [41:54]
Scott Bertram
So when I talk to my students about rhetoric, I try to give a little thumbnail idea. So you tell me if this is good or bad or I need to improve myself. Look, when we talk rhetoric, we want to teach you what to help you, how to think about things, how to construct your arguments, how to construct your thoughts, how to be persuasive. And then I always say how to be compelling. And that's. I mean that in both ways or two ways. Compelling, meaning the person listening to you, wants to listen to you, feels compelled to continue listening to you, but also, perhaps they're convinced to do something to change their behavior or change or adjust their way of thinking.
- [42:33]
Dr. Ben Beyer
I think that's great.
- [42:34]
Scott Bertram
Outstanding.
- [42:36]
Dr. Ben Beyer
The tradition of rhetoric oftentimes involves thinking about these different canons of discovering arguments, ordering them, stylizing them. And much thought is given to some of these very matters that you're talking about that you've got to do something in your conclusion, thinking about the way you order what you do to really get people up out of their seat, compelled to go act. And that might be a time, having laid down more logical arguments earlier. Now, to stir an emotion, because it's one thing to have somebody just nod the head in agreement, but then to actually go do something that's a. A much bigger ass.
- [43:15]
Scott Bertram
Yeah, yeah. In this course, you walk through five classical canons of rhetoric. So invention, arrangement, style, memory, and of course, delivery. Do you think that there's one of those in particular that some of our modern communicators are neglecting?
- [43:33]
Dr. Ben Beyer
I think that memes may neglect almost all of them, but I suppose if one stands out, it would be memory. There's just. In spoken rhetoric, and rhetoric can be written or spoken, but in spoken rhetoric, there's no longer an audience expectation that someone memorize. It's the age of the teleprompter.
- [43:53]
Scott Bertram
I've seen, I've seen not just, not just like wedding speeches, but I have now seen professional speakers holding cell phone in front of their face as they deliver a lecture, deliver a speech. Ridiculous.
- [44:06]
Dr. Ben Beyer
And I think this really invites someone who aspires to be a good rhetorician to sort of. This is a low hanging fruit, right? You can really distinguish yourself from everybody else. If, if everyone's going one way then, then it stands out if you actually do deliver from memory. To take just a small example, I was introducing a new colleague at a little beginning of the year get together and I didn't have notes and I said the person received his PhD from here and had published this book and just listed off three or four things that the person had done and asked everyone at the reception to welcome him. And someone came up to me afterwards. I was so struck that you didn't speak with notes. So I think it really can be compelling to an audience when there's no expectation that you operate from memory if you're able to do so well.
- [45:01]
Scott Bertram
Dr. Ben Beyer with us, your teacher for classical logic and rhetoric, Hillsdale. Edu New course. Inside you draw in figures, historical figures, Aristotle, Cicero, Lincoln, Churchill, Martin Luther King Jr. What do our greatest speakers in history, what do they all understand about persuasion?
- [45:23]
Dr. Ben Beyer
That's a great question. I think that each of the people you named has a profound understanding of the human being and a deep grasp of language and a firm hold on some subject matter. So Plato's Socrates would say that the rhetorician has knowledge of the thing spoken about, knowledge of souls, knowledge of the audience, and then the ability to be a guide to bridge the gap, to actually take that which you know over to the audience with knowledge of their subjective disposition. And so there's a certain kind of way in which one has to know a subject and be a psychologist and be a guide to do things well. And Dr. King and Churchill just jump out in the list that you provided. King is able to connect with listeners, to inspire them to do a difficult thing, to non violently love and stand against segregation. And Churchill is able to really within a hard time thinking about the second World War, he uses punchy little short words with an awareness that that's just the thing to inspire courage and resolve in a difficult moment. But each of those, Reverend King and Churchill, just had this ability to take the thing they knew and size up the audience and find just the right
- [47:02]
Scott Bertram
verbal resources for our listeners who don't see themselves as debaters, don't see themselves in the public square. They're not speaking all the time. How might this course still improve their everyday life?
- [47:16]
Dr. Ben Beyer
I may be at risk of repeating some of the things I said when we got started, but logic and rhetoric are traditionally considered liberal arts, part of the arts of the trivium, the arts of language. And we're all language users. So to study logic and rhetoric is to become a better user of language and a more thoughtful receiver of language. And even if you're just addressing yourself or addressing someone one on one, not in a debate, not in a public speaking scenario, to study these things is going to make you better, is going to give you greater facility, but that's leaning into the usefulness that you'll communicate better one on one, you'll be clearer. But liberal arts are also liberal. They're also useless or good for their own sake. And so it's not just it's going to help you as an employee or at the town hall or whatever the case might be. It's additionally or maybe even primarily actualizing this unique potential in us. We're becoming more human when we study these things, even if we never go out and use them.
- [48:28]
Scott Bertram
So how do you hope people receive your rhetoric in the course Classical Logic and Rhetoric? What do you hope to compel them to do?
- [48:37]
Dr. Ben Beyer
Well, I hope that those who complete the course will learn about making arguments, making definitions and taking all of that and really giving it as a gift to another, really communicating to an audience. And of course, it's something that when one studies it, not only does he or she become better at these things, him or herself, it's also then the case that one's able to thoughtfully receive and weigh the definitions, the arguments, the persuasions of others. And as we've noted repeatedly in this conversation, we're just flooded with such arguments today. So I think it's an occasion to really strengthen oneself, to receive thoughtfully what others give and to better give yourself.
- [49:29]
Scott Bertram
Dr. Ben Beyer, chairman and associate professor of education here at Hillsdale College, also your teacher for the new online course Classical Logic and Rhetoric. You can find that at Hillsdale. Edu News course and Writing a Textbook on Logic, forthcoming from classical academic press. Dr. Ben Byer, thanks so much for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.
- [49:53]
Dr. Ben Beyer
Thank you, Scott.
- [49:54]
Scott Bertram
That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to Mary Kathryn Hamm and Dr. Benjamin Byer. Remember, you can hear new episodes every week on this station. You also can find exciting extended versions of some of our interviews or listen anytime to the podcast. Find it at Podcast hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio. Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram, and this has been the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.