What Makes a Great Ghost Story

Summary

The Radio Free Hillsdale Hour
Episode Title: What Makes a Great Ghost Story
Date: October 31, 2025
Host: Scott Bertram
Guests: John J. Miller (Director, Dow Journalism Program), Dr. Ben Whalen (Associate Professor of English)

---

Episode Overview

This Halloween edition of The Radio Free Hillsdale Hour explores the enduring power and appeal of ghost and horror stories in Western literary tradition. Host Scott Bertram interviews John J. Miller, who is teaching a course on this very subject at Hillsdale College, to examine what makes these stories both fun and meaningful within a classical education. The discussion dives into the genre’s history, essential elements, notable authors, and their relevance to cultural and existential questions. Later, Dr. Ben Whalen reflects on the 100th anniversary of The Great Gatsby and its ongoing resonance in American culture.

---

Key Discussion Points

1. Defining Ghost and Horror Stories

(Start – 03:00)

• Ghost stories: "A familiar form of storytelling, of literature, maybe of movies."
• Horror: While popularly associated with graphic, slasher elements ("disgust, revulsion"), Miller emphasizes that the genre encompasses a broader literary tradition including stories of fear, suspense, and hauntings.
• This tradition dates back to ancient times and is deeply embedded in Western literature.

"Ghost stories are as old as they've been around as long as people have been telling stories."
— John J. Miller, 01:44

2. The Role of Ghost Stories in Classical Education

(03:00 – 05:10)

• At Hillsdale, the strong core curriculum ("students here are reading the right stuff") allows space for enriching electives like ghost stories.
• Such stories augment classical learning by revealing their presence in foundational works (Hamlet, Dante’s Inferno).

"Hamlet is a ghost story... Dante’s Inferno, that’s full of horror."
— John J. Miller, 03:55

3. Universal Human Fascination: Fear and the Afterlife

(05:11 – 07:48)

• Ghost stories tap into profound metaphysical questions: the nature of the afterlife, the persistence of faith and doubt.
• Miller points out biblical references to ghosts, underlining these ideas’ deep roots.

"I think at one level, they speak to the biggest question of all, which is, is there an afterlife? What comes next?"
— John J. Miller, 05:20

4. What Makes a Great Ghost Story?

(07:49 – 10:00)

• Effective ghost stories rely on "atmosphere, tension, mounting suspense, then kind of a shocking moment."
• The short story format suits the genre for its ability to deliver a "sustained sense of tension."
• Cites M.R. James:

  “Let us then be introduced to the actors in a placid way... into this calm environment let the ominous thing put out its head unobtrusively at first, and then more insistently until it holds the stage.”
  — John J. Miller (quoting M.R. James), 09:02

5. The Class Syllabus: Canonical Stories and Authors

(10:01 – 11:52)

• The course covers approximately 12 stories, chosen for their quality and representation across time.
• Notable authors include: Edgar Allan Poe, M.R. James, H.P. Lovecraft, Stephen King, and Andrew Klavan.

"It’s kind of a sampler of the best that’s been thought and said written in our language."
— John J. Miller, 11:50

6. Analysis: "The Monkey’s Paw" by W.W. Jacobs

(11:53 – 14:58)

• Miller calls it "a banger" and "maybe the most anthologized ghost story ever written."
• Explores the classic three-wishes plot structure and underlying themes of industrialization.

"It is so well told and there are so many parts to it that are interesting... comments about industrialization and machines... so there’s a lot going on in those stories."
— John J. Miller, 13:55

• Pop culture legacy: Referenced in The Simpsons Treehouse of Horror and contemporary memes.

7. H.P. Lovecraft’s Contribution

(15:38 – 17:56)

• Seen as the 20th-century successor to Poe.

• Lovecraft’s unique "cosmic dread":

  "His fundamental idea is that the universe is utterly indifferent to human life."
  — John J. Miller, 16:41

• Miller’s personal reflection: Reading Lovecraft as a teenager was "mind blowing."

8. Russell Kirk: Conservative Thinker and Ghost Story Writer

(17:57 – 20:00)

• Noted for merging his belief in mystery and tradition with ghost stories.
• T.S. Eliot praised Kirk’s work.
• Kirk’s stories reflect both his literary and philosophical commitments.

"He believed in ghosts, and he believed he had encounters with ghosts."
— John J. Miller, 18:21

9. Why Do We Love Fear? The Pleasure of the Shudder

(20:01 – 21:36)

• Edith Wharton called it "the fun of the shudder."
• Ghost stories provide a safe way to experience fear and grapple with existential questions, such as death and the afterlife.

"It’s fear, but it’s not real fear in the sense that your life is actually not at risk... you know that you’re actually safe."
— John J. Miller, 20:31

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "Ghost stories are as old as they’ve been around as long as people have been telling stories." — John J. Miller, 01:44
• "Hamlet is a ghost story... Dante’s Inferno, that’s full of horror." — John J. Miller, 03:55
• "It’s kind of a sampler of the best that’s been thought and said written in our language." — John J. Miller, 11:50
• “Let us then be introduced to the actors in a placid way... into this calm environment let the ominous thing put out its head unobtrusively at first, and then more insistently until it holds the stage.” — John J. Miller (quoting M.R. James), 09:02
• "His fundamental idea is that the universe is utterly indifferent to human life." — John J. Miller (on Lovecraft), 16:41
• "He believed in ghosts, and he believed he had encounters with ghosts." — John J. Miller (on Russell Kirk), 18:21

---

Episode Structure & Timestamps

| Segment | Time | |----------------------------------------------|--------------| | Introduction to Episode & Guests | 00:00–01:06 | | Defining Ghost & Horror Stories | 01:07–03:01 | | Ghost Stories in Classical Education | 03:02–05:10 | | Human Fascination: Fear & Afterlife | 05:11–07:48 | | Elements of a Great Ghost Story | 07:49–10:01 | | Syllabus and Essential Authors | 10:02–11:52 | | "The Monkey’s Paw" Deep Dive | 11:53–14:58 | | Legacy in Pop Culture | 15:05–15:38 | | Lovecraft’s Legacy | 15:39–17:56 | | Russell Kirk: Ghosts & Conservatism | 17:57–20:00 | | The Pleasure of Horror | 20:01–21:36 | | Outro & Next Segment Teaser | 21:49– |

---

Tone and Style

The discussion is lively, scholarly, and lightly humorous, with playful banter interwoven with serious intellectual reflection. Miller and Bertram make frequent cultural references (e.g., The Simpsons, football jokes), keeping the conversation accessible and engaging. The spirit is one of enthusiastic literary appreciation and curiosity.

---

Memorable Moments

• Miller’s explanation of the “three wishes” structure in The Monkey’s Paw: "You test the wish, then you try and fix, and then you try and restore."
• Connections to popular culture: The Simpsons Treehouse of Horror and college football as contemporary echoes of "The Monkey’s Paw" (15:05).
• Personal reflections: Miller recounts reading Lovecraft as a teenager (16:10), reinforcing the deep, formative impact these stories can have.

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a rich examination of ghost and horror stories, not only as sources of entertainment but as enduring vehicles for grappling with human fears about the unknown, death, and an afterlife. Drawing from personal experience, cultural history, and classical literature, John J. Miller and Scott Bertram make a compelling case for these tales’ continued relevance—in the classroom and beyond.

Listeners walk away with insight into:

• The genre’s literary DNA
• Practical storytelling techniques
• The cultural and philosophical resonance of ghost stories across centuries

(For additional discussions, the episode continues with Dr. Ben Whalen on the legacy of The Great Gatsby .)

Transcript

[John J. Miller]

From the historic campus of Hillsdale College.

[Scott Bertram]

In Hillsdale, Michigan, where the good, the.

[John J. Miller]

True and the beautiful are taught, nurtured and honored, this is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners across the country. I think you want those things. Atmosphere, tension, mounting, suspense, then kind of a shocking moment potentially.

[Scott Bertram]

This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. That's John J. Miller, head of Hillsdale's DOW Journalism Program. We'll talk with him about ghost and horror stories on this Halloween weekend in just a moment. Later on in today's program, Dr. Ben Whalen joins us to talk about the 100th anniversary of the Great Gatsby and its long lasting legacy. First, we're joined by John J. Miller. He is director of the DOW Journalism Program here at Hillsdale College. John, thanks so much for joining us.

[John J. Miller]

Hi, Scott.

[Scott Bertram]

Figured it was a very appropriate time to have you on because you're teaching a class this term here at Hillsdale on great ghost and horror stories. And being Halloween weekend, it's a good time to talk about ghost and horror stories. What do we mean by that, John? What do we mean by ghost, horror literature? How would you define that beyond what people might think of Friday the 13th or Jason or Halloween or something like that?

[John J. Miller]

Well, happy Halloween, Scott. Thanks for having me on. And yes, I'm teaching this course and it's called Ghosts and Horror Stories. And I think a lot of people understand what is a ghost story. It's kind of familiar form of storytelling, of literature, maybe of movies. Horror is a little bit more of a charged term because your mind does go to the kind of movies you just mentioned, maybe graphics slasher flicks that are frankly disgusting. And that's where the word, that's what the word horror really means. A strict definition of the word horror is disgust, revulsion, this sort of thing. But we've also used the word more broadly to talk about a genre that I think does include ghost stories and stories that are haunting and so forth. So it'd be a little bit of a confusion of terms. But this is an old, old tradition in certainly Western literature, probably all literature everywhere. You know, ghost stories are as old as they've been around as long as people have been telling stories. And they've taken on a special kind of form certainly in English literature and become a thing. They were very popular in the 19th century, 20th century. You think of names like, you know, Edgar Allan Poe, H.P. lovecraft, Stephen King in our own time. You know, they are all telling ghost stories, or maybe horror stories more broadly, but stories of stories of fear, suspense, hauntings.

[Scott Bertram]

Why should these type of stories, ghost stories, horror stories, have a place in classical education like we do here at Hillsdale?

[John J. Miller]

Well, they're fun. I'll just begin with that. They're fun and that doesn't mean they need a place in classical education. But I'll say two things. One of the reasons why we can do a one credit class on ghost and horror stories here at Hillsdale College, because we have such a strong core curriculum. All the students here are reading the right stuff. They're reading Homer, they're reading Shakespeare, they're reading all the stuff they really ought to read. So they're not missing any of that. I think maybe at other colleges and universities they might miss some of that. And then a course on ghost stories doesn't make sense because they aren't reading the right stuff. But here they do read the right stuff. And so this is kind of ornaments and it's an embellishment, it's kind of fun, it's an add on. And we can do it here. And I think get away with it. And more than get away with it, just do it. Well, it's just a nice augmentation to this really sound education they're getting. But the other point I like to make about this mode of storytelling is that it's embedded in the tradition. I mean, Hamlet is a ghost story. The first scene of Hamlet takes place on the misty ramparts of a castle. And they're looking ghost, the ghost of Hamlet's father who makes an appearance and sets the play in motion and then reappears. And so it, at a certain level is a ghost story, a horror story. How about Dante's Inferno? That's full of horror. And I mean horror in the disgusting, repulsive sort of way too. And yet a great work of literature. And so it's really there throughout. And you know, I wouldn't call, you know, the Divine Comedy a horror novel, but horror's in there. And you know, I said Hamlet's a ghost story. And it kind of is, but you know, it's way more than that too. But you see these elements in the best that's been thought and said in our tradition.

[Scott Bertram]

Why do you think that these stories have been a part of the human imagination since ancient times and continue today?

[John J. Miller]

I think at one level they speak to the biggest question of all, which is, is there an afterlife? What comes next? And we have our faiths, but we really, you know, do we know? You can have a strong faith, and you can also have moments of doubt. Do you really know? And one thing a ghost story does, or a certain kind of ghost story does is it actually confirms that there's an afterlife. What sort of afterlife? I don't know. Could be a lot of things, but it does confirm that. But I think it speaks to this really big question that everybody wonders about. And I will say this. I'll add, there are ghosts in the Bible, or at least references to them. There are a couple appearances, but there's a very famous one, or a reference to a ghost, I should say, in Matthew 14, when the apostles are out on the Sea of Galilee, Jesus sends them off. He says, I'll join you guys later. And they're out on the sea. And then they see him walking toward them. He's walking on water toward their ship. And. And Peter. Peter sees and, you know, he steps into the water, and then he.

[Scott Bertram]

He. He.

[John J. Miller]

He. He sinks, right? And that's. That's. That's kind of the story. But when they first see Jesus, they say it's a ghost. That's the translation. It's a ghost. And so one thing that does is it tells us ghosts were a part of the imagination of the apostles of Jesus. The other thing I'll note is that when they identify him, when they say it's a ghost, Jesus doesn't say, oh, you silly apostles, there's no such thing as a ghost. He says, be not afraid. It's me. He doesn't say, there's no such thing as a ghost. Now, that doesn't mean that there are ghosts. But it feels to me like in that moment, we have set the ball on the tee for Jesus to tell us something about whether there are ghosts or not. He doesn't. Maybe he said, there are no such thing as ghosts. And that's not recorded. There are all kinds of possibilities here. I just make the observation that the apostles thought about ghosts, and there we are. Make that story what you will, but the idea of ghosts, they're just embedded in the deepest traditions of our culture.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking to John J. Miller, who's teaching a course on great ghost and horror stories this term at Hillsdale College, when you hear horror again, you think blood and monsters. But many of these stories, almost all these stories, rely on atmosphere and suggestion and tension. What's the secret, do you think, to a truly effective ghost story?

[John J. Miller]

I think you want those things. Atmosphere, tension, mounting suspense, then kind of a shocking moment, potentially. I think the short story is a great form for the ghost story. And I mean you can write a whole novel of ghost stories, of course, but the idea that you can sit down and absorb it in 20 or 30 minutes and get the whole effect, I think it's a really, it's a really. I have the sustained sense of tension. You know, a novel you put down and come back to and you know, you do this all in one, one moment. There's a very great writer of, of ghost stories called Mr. James. That's Montague Rhodes James. He's was a kind of turn of the century figure, late 19th, early 20th century. And he's regarded by, by many fans of the genres as the great king of the English ghost story. And he wrote some great ones and he once. And then he wrote about ghost stories, his own theory of them. He has a great line where he says, this is his method, this is what he thinks goes into a great story. He said, let us then be introduced to the actors in a placid way. Let us see them going about their ordinary business, undisturbed by forebodings, pleased with their surroundings, and into this calm environment. Let the ominous thing put out its head unobtrusively at first, and then more insistently until it holds the stage. So it's a kind of a slow boil. You're introduced to something, it seems kind of ordinary. A few notes of creepiness start to jump in, come in and then I don't wanna say the jump scare, but there's often kind of a big moment where it's like, oh my gosh, it's a ghost. And that's, that's what Mr. James said should be in a great ghost story.

[Scott Bertram]

Let's talk a bit about what's happening inside the class. Walk us through what's on the syllabus for your great Ghost in Horror Stories class. And why choose these authors, these stories? Why are they essential?

[John J. Miller]

So it's a one credit course. We meet once a week for an hour each week. And so we have about, I figured some introductory and concluding kind of remarks at the front and end of the course. But I was looking at the calendar and basically thought I have a dozen chances here to assign a story for the students to read one per week. So it doesn't, you know, what I want to do is give a broad sense of the form across time and do it almost chronologically. And so I tried to pick what I thought are really 12 number one outstanding stories, number two representative of different writers, and then go across time. And so we have, you know, Edgar Allan Poe makes an appearance. He kind of has to. Right. You can't do this without, you know, certainly in America without Edgar Allen Poe. Mr. James, who I just mentioned, who I just quoted, he is on the list. H.P. lovecraft, another well known American horror writer. He is on the syllabus. And then there's, you know, Stephen King. I thought I had to have a Stephen King story. And he's more known for his novels, but he's written plenty of short stories. I found one that I thought was really pretty good and so we stuck that on. Andrew Clav. Yeah, the. The podcast host from the Daily Wire. You know, many people think of him as a conservative commentator, which he is. But his. The first part of his career he was a novelist, a screenwriter, and he loves ghost stories and he's written a few. So I added one at the very end of the course. One, one. One by him. So it's kind of a sampler of the best that's been thought and said written in our language.

[Scott Bertram]

The very first short story on this list is by W.W. jacobs called the Monkey's Paw, one of the more famous short horror stories written. What makes that one so timeless?

[John J. Miller]

Well, that's a banger, that one. As a. We started with that one. I thought this is a great one to begin with. It's short, it's shocking, it's compelling. It's also maybe the most anthologized ghost story ever written. I mean, if you go. If you go into some store and pick up a random book called Great Ghost Stories, there's a really good chance that the monkey. Monkey's Paw is going to be in it. The Monkey's paw, written by W.W. jacobs. It's basically a three wishes story. A family has. Has a semi mysterious encounter with an old friend. They're presented with the opportunity to make three wishes. And it's called the Monkey's Paw because this is a kind of talisman that permits the wishing. It's like, you know, they don't have a genie who pops out of a bottle, but they have the monkey's. The Monkey's Paw. And. And so they're presented with three wishes. And Scott, what could go wrong? What could go wrong?

[Scott Bertram]

Something's going to go wrong, I'm sure about it.

[John J. Miller]

So it's a three wishes story and there are so many of these. But this is the great classic version of the three wishes story. And the family's presented with this opportunity and the first wish they make is the kind of wish that this standard kind of first wish, which is one that's. You're going to test this out. You know, you test the wish. Is this true? Do I really get a wish granted? And so you ask for something that's not, you know, it'd be great to get, but it's also not going to be a world changing sort of thing. And so that's what happens. And this, of course, is where things start to go wrong. You think you're just testing it and then something goes really horribly wrong. The first wish is a test. The second wish, and this is in these stories, often the second wish, you try to fix the first wish and then what could go wrong again? And then the third wish becomes a kind of restoration. Can we restore to the place where we were before we were even given the first wish? And of course you can't, but you can make an attempt. And so I'm obviously withholding some of the elements of the story here, but that's essentially what happens. You test the wish, then you try and fix, and then you try and restore. That's what happens to the story. It is so well told and there are so many parts to it that are interesting. It makes comments about industrialization and machines. I mean, we're all. We have so many conversations today about, is AI going to steal all of our jobs? And in the background of the Monkey's Paw, there are some comments about, does industrialization and the rise of machines, does it dehumanize us? You might not catch that on your first read, but oh my gosh, it's there. And so there's a lot going on in those stories. It's really, it's a great, great horror story. And then there's a real richness to it.

[Scott Bertram]

I have to ask if you showed the class the famous Simpsons Treehouse of Horror episode involving the monkey's paw.

[John J. Miller]

I almost did, but I did not. But that's a great example of how this story has entered pop culture.

[Scott Bertram]

I just referenced it on X the other week because James Franklin, the head coach of Penn State, has a history of losing the top 10 teams. And so I had him wishing on the monkey's paw to say, please, please, please let people stop talking about my record against top 10 teams.

[John J. Miller]

See, perfect example that he lost to.

[Scott Bertram]

UCLA and that he lost to Northwestern and people stopped talking about his record against top 10 teams. And he was fire.

[John J. Miller]

That's like the football version of the Monkey's Paw.

[Scott Bertram]

John J. Miller with us. He's teaching a course, great Ghost and Horror stories here at Hillsdale this term. You mentioned H.P. lovecraft's name earlier in the conversation. One of the modern masters of horror. What does he add to the tradition?

[John J. Miller]

Well, if you're going to ask who are the greatest American horror writers, you would say Edgar Allan Poe, greatest of the 19th century. Next you say H.P. lovecraft and you say greatest of the 20th century. I think that's increasingly a kind of confirmed idea. You can always argue about this kind of thing. But I think he's really established himself and I'll just say my own personal experience. I first encountered him when I was 14 or 15 years old and just, I found it mind blowing in the way that a work of literature can do that to a kid. Right. You're impressionable at that age and boy, did HP Lovecraft make an impression on me. And so I read him and I read more and more and more and to the point where I can't even be, you know, I can't even be critical of this guy. I mean, I can say a lot of things. I mean he, his, his, his, his prose can be ridiculously ornate. He could, he could never write an action scene. His action scenes are awful. Just all kinds of negative things I could say. But, but the, the power of his imagination just, it left a mark on me. And I read them now and I just feel nostalgic. But also I kind of see the. No one wrote about cosmic dread and horror better than H.P. lovecraft. I mean his fundamental idea is that the universe is utterly indifferent to human life. And he's not the only writer ever to say that there's a tradition of naturalism that says such a thing in non horror literature. But he brings it into the world of horror literature that the universe is its most. You cannot believe how uncaring it is about you. And it can be depressing in a sense. On the other hand, I do think, at least in me, it kind of involves a Christian response, but it forces me to think about some pretty big questions. And he does it in ways that are ultimately entertaining. The stories are engrossing and weird and strangely delightful.

[Scott Bertram]

There's a name here you might not expect because Russell Kirk is far better known as a conservative thinker than as a horror writer. But he was. Do those two things stand apart? Do any of his moral or philosophical ideas enter into these horror stories?

[John J. Miller]

That's a great question. So Russell Kirk was this great conservative intellectual of the 20th century. He wrote the Conservative Mind, a kind of landmark book in the history of American history. American conservative intellectual thought. We have on campus here his great biographer, who is a professor of history, Bradley Birzer. And so this is a really important figure in intellectual history. And he lived here in Michigan, too, which is interesting. But he believed in ghosts, and he believed he had encounters with ghosts. He tells them in his memoir. And he wrote ghost stories, about two dozen of them, and they're really pretty good, and they're well regarded. And you'll find them occasionally in these collections of great American ghost stories. You'll find one from Russell Kirk, and people will read those, and they won't even know about the rest of it, the conservative political ideas that most others know him by. But he wrote these, and they're just a handful of them. They're really good. They want a couple of them, won awards. T.S. eliot wrote him a fan note once about one of them. So he was quite accomplished at it. And so, yeah, I stuck him on the syllabus and I did, number one, it's a great ghost story. And then number two, he did teach here at Hillsdale College. Our students go visit the old homestead and meet his widow, who's still alive. And so it's a nice way to make those connections as well. But is there a connection between this and his political philosophy? I think yes. And one of the things he believe in, mystery and tradition, and those can be some pretty conservative principles, too, so he can make too much of that. But he did love ghost stories, and he wrote good ones.

[Scott Bertram]

After all this time, why do you think that we keep returning to these type of stories, horror stories and ghost stories? What does this literature offer us that means we want to keep coming back?

[John J. Miller]

That's a great question. It's kind of a mystery, right? It's why do you go to a movie theater and watch a movie that's going to make you scared? And yet we do it. Right? And there are a lot of theories about why this appeals to us. Edith Wharton, the great American novelist From more than 100 years ago, Edith Wharton, referred to, and she wrote a lot of ghost stories, short stories. She wrote about the fun of the shutter. You take a strange kind of pleasure out of this fear. And part of it is it's fear, but it's not real fear in the sense that your life is actually not at risk. And you can go to a movie theater and watch one of these movies and feel scared, but you know that you're actually safe. And so it involves a kind of pleasure. And I get. Not everybody feels that my wife does not like these movies, right? I can't watch them with her. But I like them and a lot of people like them. And clearly a lot of people like them. They can be big commercial successes. So they're speaking to something that appeals to us. And then I do think the really good ones, the ones that are artful, they introduce really big and powerful questions about life, the afterlife, what is death, and more.

[Scott Bertram]

John J. Miller is director of the Dow Journalism Program here at Hillsdale College, also teaching the course of on Great Ghost and Horror Stories this term at Hillsdale College. John, thanks so much for joining us.

[John J. Miller]

Thanks, Scott.

[Scott Bertram]

Up next, Dr. Ben Whalen from Hillsdale's English Department returns. We'll talk more about the Great Gatsby in the 100th anniversary year of its release today, about its long lasting legacy in culture. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. This show is a part of the.

[John J. Miller]

Hillsdale College Podcast Network.

[Scott Bertram]

If you like what you hear, please subscribe to your favorite. You'll get brand new episodes of all your favorite shows sent right to your device and you'll help us know that you're out there listening. Never miss another episode by going to Podcast Hillsdale Edu subscribe. That's Podcast Hillsdale Edu subscribe or click the Follow or Subscribe button on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Great books, great people, great ideas. Learning about these things is critical to being a well educated human being. And we can help with the Hillsdale Dialogues. Each week, Hillsdale College President Larry Arne joins radio veteran Hugh Hewitt to discuss topics of enduring relevance. And from time to time, they also talk about current events, but always with an eye toward more fundamental truths. And they want you to tune in to a conversation like no other. The Hillsdale Dialogues are posted every Monday on the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at podcast hillsdale.edu. that's podcast hillsdale Edu or listen via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you find your audio.

[Scott Bertram]

Welcome back to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertram. Be sure to check out the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at podcast hillsdale.edu. you'll hear older episodes of this program, plus other great Hillsdale audio like Imprimis, the Larry Arn Show, Hillsdale Dialogues, and much more. Podcast Hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio, including YouTube. We're joined by Dr. Benedict Whelan. He's Associate professor of English here at Hillsdale College. Dr. Whalen, thanks for joining us.

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

Thanks for having me, Scott.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking more today about the Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald, celebrating its 100th anniversary of release in 2025 and conversation today about why the Great Gatsby still resonates today and some of its cultural legacy. Why do you think what has helped the Great Gatsby stay so firmly embedded in American culture and also in American education?

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

Yeah, I think one of, one of the interesting things about the Great Gatsby is that I think it expresses, well, the sort of question of direction and how Americans will use their energy. So sort of famously, in 1893, Frederick Jackson Turner delivered his paper that we now refer to as the Frontier Thesis, where he says that the, you know, the American frontier was officially closed and the American frontier had been this thing against which Americans contended and so were shaped by. So Turner, Jackson Turner thought that the American character was formed by the frontier in really profound ways. And so the question was, with the closing of the frontier, what will happen to the American character? And sort of in what way will Americans now use their tremendous energies? And I think that the Great Gatsby reflects that sort of question quite well. There's this, this movement in the novel between the east and the west. And it turns out that all of the characters are essentially Westerners, as Nick Carraway talks about them, who have come East. And so there's this question of American movement and of American character. If we're no longer striving against the frontier, where will we direct our energies and also what will most shape us? And as listeners will remember, of course, Jay Gatsby himself is shaped by these memories and these loves. But ultimately you can't live in the past or really successfully recreate it. And so that sort of a bias abiding question, what is our relationship to our past, to our frontier? And, and what is shaping American culture moving forward is one that was pertinent in, in 1925, 100 years ago, and I think is still a profound question for us to ask ourselves. The American people, in a sense, always reinventing themselves. And this, this novel is a. Is a great one for expressing that and, and for expressing that, but also sort of encouraging critical reflection about that.

[Scott Bertram]

Are there particular themes or even particular scenes inside the Great Gatsby that feel particularly relevant for today's world?

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

Well, I should say, I guess a slight spoiler alert if listeners don't remember, but poor Jay Gatsby at the end, having essentially lost the woman he loved and hoped to run off with, he's then shot and it's a very, very striking scene at the climax of the novel where, or really it's actually after the climax of the novel. But our first person narrator comes to Gatsby's house, and he finds Gatsby there, lying in his pool, drifting. And he's bled to death. He's been shot. And one of the reasons why I think that's such a poignant scene is not just in the shape of the story. This is the tragic conclusion of Gatsby's life and endeavors, but also there's this way in which it captures part of the problem in the novel, because Gatsby is simply drifting. And this is one of the questions for Americans in the 20s is, are we simply going to drift, or will we be sort of purposefully direct, you know, moving in a particular direction, will be driven by proper and good ends, or are we simply going to spend our vitality sort of adrift and aimless or amorally? And so I think the sort of image you walk away from the novel with Gatsby there, just lifeless and adrift, is sort of one of the possible ways that Americans might be. And that's a real problem for Fitzgerald.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking with Dr. Ben Whalen about the Great Gatsby. This idea of chasing a dream, even a flawed one, is timeless. What is it about the Great Gatsby that helps make that resonate so deeply inside the reader?

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

Yeah, I think the way in which a dream fashions character, that it in fact provides this motivation and it becomes a sort of expression of who you.

[John J. Miller]

Are.

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

Is central to the novel. So Jay Gatsby, when he was completely poor as a young man, had fallen in love with this woman and had this relationship with her. Then he went off to World War I, and after that, then made a fortune. And he comes back and he's motivated by his love for this woman. He buys this house and wants. Wants to rekindle that relationship. And so you see there this sort of powerful expression of how one youthful moment then can shape the whole dream and all of the energy and effort of a person. So I think it's very powerful in that way. It also, though the novel really captures the dangers of a sort of improper nostalgia. And there's this great exchange there between the first person narrator and Jay Gatsby where the narrator says, well, you can't recreate the past. And Gatsby says, what do you mean? Of course you can. That's precisely what I'm trying to do. And that. So you see there, in fact, both the goodness of dreams in giving you energy and direction and purpose, but also the danger of a sort of poisoned nostalgia. It turns out, of course, that Jay Gatsby is pursuing a married woman. The woman he loved as a young man is married. So this, this dream has become immoral and sort of poisonous. It would involve all sorts of destruction to accomplish. And so nostalgia, it can be shaping and it can also be poisonous and destructive.

[Scott Bertram]

I think about this a lot. When I worked on a daily radio show in a little smaller town, an easy way to make the phone lines light up and talk for hours was ask a question like what restaurant used to be in this town, wish were still here? Or what was your favorite thing to do as a kid around. People love looking back. And I just look at that in many different ways. Something I realized at one point is nostalgia is so powerful because we know it works out in the end. Yeah, right. We're alive, we're here, we had a family, we did all this stuff. We don't remember everything happening at the same time. We don't remember the fear we had at that time. The worries, those are gone. We remember the highlights, the good points and we know things worked out okay. And you can't, that's a hurdle you can't get through when trying to fairly evaluate the past.

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

Yeah, no, that's a, that's a great point. And, and I, I think the Great Gatsby really sort of captures that sense. I think even for us now, right on the hundred year anniversary, we might look back at the flappers and the Roaring twenties with a certain form of nostalgia that could, there could be a sort of romanticism to it and a beauty and an attraction to the Jazz Age, but then also ignoring the fact that it's all about to crash with the Great Depression in 1929 and that we're actually in this interwar period, but we're heading into World War II and they're great trials ahead.

[Scott Bertram]

Do you look and see any sort of modern parallels to the self made Persona of Gatsby? If you look around social media influencers, things like that, do you see a parallel 100 years later?

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

Yeah, it's a great point, the connection there, because Gatsby is self made and he comes out of nowhere. He's even changed his name to something more sort of, I don't know, maybe sounds more elegant and flashy. But there's also a question in the novel, as I mentioned, we never get inside Jay Gatsby's head and there is a question of how deep he really is and then maybe how false he is, how much the Persona that he's created, even in changing his name, in putting on these Lavish parties and being the rich, splendid person is really a falsehood and something you can, you can punch through and then you, you'll find nothing, nothing behind it. And I do sort of wonder sometimes about these, you know, these influencers or, or some, some aspects of pop culture where the, the representation of life is so glamorous and it seems so attractive. So all of us think, oh, I, I want that. But actually if you, if you punch through there, then you'll find maybe a great emptiness or, or there's a lot of flash with nothing behind it. And so the sort of. The need for the formation of real character and the cultivation of real virtues and the need to move oneself and direct oneself in a real direction towards proper ends, rather than simply being adrift in desires or flashiness or social media. I think actually, funnily, Gatsby can speak.

[Scott Bertram]

To that, that adrift is a word I wrote down as I think about influencers or people. The goal, right? The goal is additional followers clicks. What you do to achieve that goal is different from achieving the goal of being what truly is success or figuring out your life or what are you working towards. And it is a facade that you are able to build that can attract others to you or make them interested in you. But that's not an end. It can't be an end.

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

No, that's right. And we see that, I think, so evidently today with people simply pursuing being known or recognized or having followers. Yeah, that can't be. Then the sort of social theorist Walter Lippman in 1914 wrote a book called titled Drift and Mastery. And he was very critical of the American character. He was saying that we have a nation of uncritical drifters and that in fact there's a sort of passivity and lack of critical reflection in the American character that is really, really unhealthy. And I think that Fitzgerald is in part responding to that, just like he's responding to Turner's frontier thesis. There's this question of what really will be the sort of. Of proper American character and what is the direction we're really pursuing. We should be intentional and energetic, not exhausted and passive.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking with Dr. Ben Whalen from Hillsdale's English department about the Great Gatsby. Does the book's legacy, is it different in non American contexts? Does it speak to a global audience in some way?

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

It certainly is quite American, and I think consciously so. But for instance, one of the things that Jay Gatsby does does is the house that he buys is this newly constructed recreation of a French Sort of chateau. And so you have a sense there. And then, of course, the different characters have been veterans. They've gone back to Europe and fought for America there. So you do have a sense of the way in which America is this young nation with an inheritance that reaches back to. To an older and older than she is, and to a different. Two different countries, to the west, to Europe and. And Christendom. And so there. There is this sort of relationship between those hinted at and touched at. Touched. Touched on in. In the novel. I don't think it's. I don't think it's too prominent a theme. I'll say one other thing, though. The way in which the novel represents the young and the aspiring and desire, that's just universal. That's human nature. And so in these ways, I think readers from all sorts of countries and traditions would be able to find deep resonance with themselves simply because Fitzgerald is so humanly true in capturing that.

[Scott Bertram]

We've talked with you previously about Twain, We've talked about Melville, Moby Dick here on the show. Do you think Great Gatsby is the great American novel?

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

That's a good question. No, I don't think so. But if we wanted to say maybe it's the great American fable, the little myth there at the beginning of the 20th century, I would subscribe to that. It really is. It punches above its weight. So the question is not a ridiculous one. I don't think it rises to the sort of significance and stature of Moby Dick or Huckleberry Finn. But it really is important, I think, to think about the novel in its own historical place. If you think of the sort of rise of modernism in literature, you have James Joyce's Ulysses is 1922. That same year you have T.S. eliot's the Wasteland. And we think of those two monumental works as being high modernism. You also have. And so then you have Fitzgerald writing the Great Gatsby, publishing it in 1925. And it's that novel that Hemingway reads and is so inspired by that. Then he goes on to write the sun also rises in 1926. So it stands. It's an excellent representative of sort of high modernist realism there. And Fitzgerald is there in the company of Hemingway and Joyce and Eliot.

[Scott Bertram]

You mentioned this in a previous conversation about the Great Gatsby here on the show, that the meaning can change. You've read it now, I don't know how many times, right through your life and teach it to our students. Any particular ways for you that the novel's meaning has changed or you found new things over time because of age or experience.

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

Yeah, actually one of the this is a very literary response. But one of the things that's growing that interests me more now is as a teacher of literature, seeing Nick Carraway, the narrator, as more and more significant and puzzling to me. So this is something I just wrestle with, is trying to understand exactly what the narrator's takeaway after witnessing this tragedy, what his takeaway really is. He's a sort of enigmatic figure too. But I do think that Fitzgerald was quite intentional in crafting it as a first person narrator. There are in literature circ there.

[Scott Bertram]

We.

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

Know that Fitzgerald was reading Joseph Conrad and the Heart of Darkness at the time while he was writing this. And I think there are interesting ways in which Fitzgerald is trying to use his first person narrator like Conrad uses Marlow in his. And if you think of the Heart of Darkness, you also have a first person narrator who witnesses these events surrounding Kurtz that ultimately lead to the destruction of that great man. So Gatsby and Kurtz, they're interesting resonances there. But as you study the novel more and more closely, I think you are challenged finally to give an account of what the narrator himself has concluded about the events that he's told us.

[Scott Bertram]

Dr. Benedict Whelan, Associate professor of English here at Hillsdale College, as we talk about the Great Gatsby on its 100th birthday in 2025 and the cultural legacy, why it still resonates with today. Dr. Whelan, thanks so much for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.

[Dr. Ben Whalen]

Thanks for having me, Scott.

[Scott Bertram]

That will wrap up this edition of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to John J. Miller, head of Hillsdale's Dow Journalism Program, and Ben Whalen from Hillsdale's English Department. Remember, you can hear new episodes every week on this station. You also can find extended versions of some of our interviews or listen anytime to the podcast. Find it at podcast hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio. Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram, and this has been the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.