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- [00:06]
Scott Bertram
From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, where the good, the true and the beautiful are taught, nurtured, and honored. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners across the country.
- [00:25]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Everyone loves the Nativity scene. Where did all that begin? Well, actually, it began in the 13th century through the 1200s with St. Francis of Assisi. He wanted to find a new way, really, to celebrate the Nativity.
- [00:42]
Scott Bertram
This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast network. That was Dr. Ken Calvert, professor of ancient history here at Hillsdale College. Today we talk about the history of Christmas. Also later on in today's program, Dr. Chloe Carmichael is with us. Her new book is Can I say why Free Speech Matters and How to Use It Fearlessly. First, we're joined by Dr. Ken Calvert. He is professor of ancient history here at Hillsdale College. Dr. Calvert, thanks for joining us.
- [01:15]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Thank you, Scott. Good to be here.
- [01:17]
Scott Bertram
Digging into the history of Christmas today. Tis the season.
- [01:20]
Dr. Ken Calvert
It is.
- [01:21]
Scott Bertram
And there's a long history. And thankfully, we have you, the expert to join us. Right, let's start at the beginning.
- [01:27]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Okay.
- [01:28]
Scott Bertram
So how and maybe why and when did Christmas first come to be celebrated in the Christian tradition?
- [01:36]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Right. So we look at December 25, you know, as the date. And there has been all kinds of confusion about why that date is the date that we celebrate Christmas. Since about the 18th century, the 1700s A.D. there has been this idea that somehow Constantine established December 25th as the date. And what befuddles me as an ancient historian is there is absolutely no evidence that Constantine made that happen. They also say that he established Sunday as the day for celebration. There are even people who say that he wrote the New Testament. So all kinds of strange things about Constantine that come out. Constantine, you can debate who he was. I've got my own opinions about that guy. But in the end, he actually, during his reign, we find confirmation that Christmas had been celebrated on December 25 for quite a long time. It shows up on a calendar in the city of Rome, not in Constantinople, where Constantine is it, but in the city of Rome. It shows up that December 25th is the date. Now, where did they get that? And how long had Christians been doing that? And when you look at the evidence, it actually goes back quite early. And so I want to try and unpack the biblical roots of this so that we kind of can wrap our head around this. And it begins with Zechariah. Okay. The father of John The Baptist, the husband of Elizabeth. Right. And we are told that he is in the temple, you know, acting as a priest, and he is told that he's going to have a son. And he questions that. Right. And then he struck dumb for, you know, the next nine months and makes Elizabeth very happy. Actually, I'm reading into Scripture, so that might not have happened. Anyway, the idea here is that what has happened and when this happens, okay? And there is a suggestion among theologians and from fairly early on that what Zechariah is doing in the temple is during a high feast. All right? And so when we look at the calendar, Jesus is born before the death of Herod the Great, and Herod dies in 4 B.C. and so Jesus had to have been born two years earlier, 6 B.C. or maybe 7 B.C.
- [04:21]
Scott Bertram
Dr. Calvert, how do we know some of this? How are we so certain or think we are so certain about some of this timeline?
- [04:27]
Dr. Ken Calvert
What's wonderful about Judaism is their record keeping. And we have records of high feasts, like the Feast of the Atonement, the feast of tabernacles in 6 BC is all around between the 24th and the 27th of September. So maybe the 25th of September. Right around that time. Okay. Six months later, the Gospels tell us that Mary agrees to carry this child. Right. And she is told in the Gospel of Luke, go visit your relative Elizabeth. You know, and we don't know how they're relatives at all. Only Elizabeth is older and had been barren. And this is a miraculous child, John the Baptist. Right. And so she goes to visit Elizabeth, and we are told that she stays through three months. All right? She stays three months until Elizabeth gives birth to her baby. So the nine months for Elisabeth would be from September, you know, up until June.
- [05:43]
Scott Bertram
Yeah.
- [05:44]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Right. Okay. Now when then would we calculate the conception of Jesus to be? Well, six months after September, which is March, March 25th. And then what's nine months after March 25th? December 25th. And so from Scripture, and you know, the early church is looking at this, and they're seriously considering all of these dates. And now there is a difference in calendars between the Eastern calendar and the Western calendar. For the Eastern calendar, it lands around January 6th, or the Western calendar around December 25th. And if you wonder in the modern day why you have these differences, it's because of the way in which through this history, over the last 2,000 years, east and West marked time on their calendars. But if you go back to that first century, it's the same day. Okay, now, what's interesting about the early church is that they were not so much interested in, in the date when Jesus is born in Bethlehem. What they are interested in is the date of conception that March 25th. And so what they do is you have a number of people, Julius Africanus, Tertullian, a man named Hippolytus. This is all in 2nd and 3rd century Christianity in which you have a number of theologians and apologists at work defending Christianity. And Hippolytus in his commentary on the book of Daniel, which is this, this book that talks about, you know, the calendrical between Daniel, the calendrical data between Daniel and the time of the coming of Jesus. You know, this is 400 years. And he, he, he figures, he figures this out, that what happened was that. And related to Z Zechariah, that it is, he is conceived, Jesus is conceived on March 25 and therefore is born on December 25. And these different Christians are all agreeing on this. Okay? And so this is very important that when we get back to this issue of Constantine creating Christianity on December 25, right. What's really going on here is what, what Constantine is doing, or at least what happens during Constantine's era. I don't think he actually did anything relating to Christmas. Right. But what he was doing, perhaps in the calendrical construction that we find during his time is affirming that the Christians had already been seeing December 25th as the birth date of Jesus and more importantly, March 25th as the day of his conception of Christ's conception. Now you pour into this an emperor named Aurelian who is in the midst of a very tumultuous era in third century Rome, the 270s, going back to the 240s, an era that some historians call the era of the barracks emperors, where general after general after general is trying to take over the Roman Empire. And what Aurelian does somewhere between 270 and 275 is introduce a new God, a new cult to the Roman religious system. It's the worship of Sol Invictus, of the invincible sun. Solar worship, right? And this is something that Constantine, years later, his father also worshiped the same God. So this is where there's confusion with solar worship and Sol Invictus. Now, what Aurelian does is choose December 25th as the festival for the worship of Sol Invictus.
- [09:46]
Scott Bertram
Dr. Ken Calvert with us talking about the history of Christmas. Dr. Calvert, why that date? Why the 25th of December? Perhaps?
- [09:54]
Dr. Ken Calvert
You know, the 25th, right. Being the winter solstice, it's the moment at which there's more sunshine and less darkness. Right. And it could be that he's just doing this because this is a popular military God. So it might be that. And in fact, there had been some arguments over whether or not this divinity would be introduced. But Aurelian does this. There's another possibility here that what he's trying to do is cover up Christianity. Okay. Because they'd been celebrating on the March 25 and December 25. And remember that in Malachi. In Malachi, the Messiah is called the sun. S U N of righteousness in numbers, there's a messianic prophecy about the star, okay? The Messiah being a star. So this idea of solar imagery and light, the Gospel of John, okay, the light has come into the world, Right. The darkness knew him not. This idea of light and sunshine, okay? This is part of Christian imagery and something that is often forgotten when we talk about Christian art, that it's in Scripture and that Jesus really is the light of the world. And so is Aurelian trying to cover up the Christian celebration with a pagan celebration or a third option? Which is least likely? Is he trying to bring the Christians into the Roman world? Is he trying to make it easier for them to practice their Christianity and celebrate on the 25th? You know, Sol Invictus or Jesus? And so this is something that is often just really ignored and not people not attempting to understand it. I think it's really, really crucial because when December 25th is confirmed later on in the calendars, and particularly during the time of Constantine, when we have this calendar in Rome, there are other pagan celebrations listed alongside December 25 as the Christian celebration. You know, Sol Invictus, Saturnalia, these things are going on all about the same time. And the one thing that makes sense to me at the time of Constantine is Christians have become legal, and so their celebrations are as verifiable and justifiable as the pagan. So I think that's really important for us to understand why December 25th has come down to us as this important date. Yeah.
- [12:46]
Scott Bertram
Talking to Dr. Ken Calvert, professor of ancient history, about the history of Christmas. How would early Christians then celebrate Christmas? And when would it begin to look like something we'd recognize today?
- [13:02]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Right. I think it's really hard for us to understand this. There are moments in the history of the early church, particularly in the third and the fourth century, where we have statements regarding the celebration of Christ's birth in relation or in contrast to the pagans. Jerome of Jerusalem talks about this. Other writers talk about this Clement of Alexandria. And what they portray here is the idea that celebrations among the pagans during this time during December, with the Saturnalia or other celebrations, are celebrations typical to the pagan celebration of too much food, too much drink, sexual immorality, being involved in all of the corruption of wealth and power. And that is so typical of the Romans and their worship of their gods, because they viewed the gods as having made them these great and powerful, wealthy and luxurious people. Right? And Christianity is just the opposite. It's about humility. It's about bowing before the true God of the universe and the true king of the universe. And so what do the Christians seem to do during this era? There is the statement, okay, they fill themselves with food, they fill themselves with wine and all of these gifts. What are we going to do? We're going to give the poor food, we're going to give the wine to the poor, make their day happy. We're going to give gifts to the poor. And this is an important part of really the tradition of Christian practice during Christmas. And you see this Even in the 12 days of Christmas and in the octave of Christmas, that during this time, Christians are showing mercy and grace to their neighbors, to the poor, to those who are in need, which is exactly what Christ expects of us. Matthew 25, this idea of reaching out to the prisoner and to the poor and to the, you know, those who are in need, the sick. And so this is what Christmas seems to be for the Christians.
- [15:14]
Scott Bertram
Dr. Calvert, should we say something here about the earliest known Christmas hymn?
- [15:20]
Dr. Ken Calvert
So I like to point out when we're talking about Christmas and our time of worship and gathering. Is that the first known Christmas hymn from the 4th century AD actually about the same time as Nicholas. St Nicholas was written by a man named Prudentius of the Father's love Begotten, which I've heard in almost every church I've gone to, you know, of the Father's love begotten, ere the world began to be Just a beautiful hymn. It's one of our earliest Christmas hymns. This relates to, you know, one of the most famous Christians and Christmas, and that is St Nicholas, a 4th century bishop who by the way, attended the Council of Nicaea. He was there, and Nicholas was known in his life because he had been wealthy and as a Christian bishop, he began to give his wealth away. And particularly the famous story is, you know, he gave little bags of money to a poor man who had daughters and had no dowry to go with them. And so the bishop Nicholas was tossing these bags of coins into the window of this poor man. And then a further story develops that these bags land in shoes. The idea of the socks and the stockings, that kind of thing. And so this idea of it being a day of mercy, because that's what Christmas is all about. God showing his mercy to us is very much a part of the ancient tradition.
- [17:03]
Scott Bertram
What elements of our modern Christmas celebration are perhaps distinctly American inventions even.
- [17:11]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Right, right. So I think St. Nicholas riding on a sleigh, being pulled by reindeer, you know, that.
- [17:19]
Scott Bertram
That's us.
- [17:21]
Dr. Ken Calvert
That's right. That's right. Really, a 1950s invention now become kind of standard. And the whole story of Rudolph and all that kind of thing. And, you know, again, I don't want to be a curmudgeon and to, you know, to pop everybody's bubble, but, you know, the idea that Santa Claus is going house to house to house and giving gifts, that's basically St. Nicholas, you know, and so, you know, that's a good thing. You know, adding a sleigh with reindeer, that comes out of Nordic tradition. And, you know, you follow the Dutch and Norwegian and the Nordic traditions. You have some of these stories connecting there. Now, in the Netherlands, people are a little embarrassed that he was served by a number of black slaves who helped him with his work. We've done away with that now, and I think the Dutch have done away with that as well. But, you know, all kinds of things that attended the. This story, and, you know, peculiarly American, especially after World War II, it becomes much more of a commercial kind of enterprise, much more of a materialistic kind of idea, and we lose a little bit of sight of it. But there is in all of this, you know, the giving of gifts, which is what Christ is to us. St. Nicholas, you know, delivering these gifts, which is a beautiful idea that's still there. There's still that kernel, you know, in the midst of it and a time of joy and of light. You know, the lights on the tree, you know, Christ is the light coming into the world. All of that is still pointing back to the original meaning.
- [18:59]
Scott Bertram
If we look at how Christmas has evolved in some ways that you laid out, what does that tell us about the way that faith and culture interact and how the sacred and secular can influence each other?
- [19:12]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Right. And this, too, has been a part of the Christian story all along. For instance, trying to explain the nativity, trying to explain the incarnation to a pagan world where a God would never become a human being in the way that they're describing, the Christians are attempting to do this and you head off into all kinds of strange directions and heresies and things like that. Finally, the church comes around to the Council of Nicaea and Council of Chalcedon and is able to give Christians the language to be able to express what's going on in Scripture, right? And what's there. And this is true, you know, all through history, all through the history of the church, that in trying to explain very difficult things, right, we can go off the rails fairly easily. And in the modern world, too, you know, trying to explain this within a secular society that is dominated by, you know, scientific empiricism, how do you get after all of this and try to help people understand that we believe it's not a myth that this actually happened, that God actually became flesh. And so, you know, to use the language to kind of try and explain to folks, you know, what all of this means, that there is more to existence than what we can just touch and feel, that there is a God. You know, getting to that point of believing, you know, that there is a God, there is a mind, a Logos that has created. And of course, Logos, you know, central in the Gospel of John, that itself is a Christmas story. That itself is part of the. Of the nativity. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word, you know, when you want to know who God, what Jesus, true Father is, you know, there, you know, in the Gospel of John, it's stated very clearly, right? And so getting people around to the idea that there is a Logos, there is a mind, that there is a person who not only created all of this that we can study and pursue, and by God's grace, we have the reason to be able. The logic to be able to do this. What a wonderful miracle is man to be able to look at these things and then to take them from that point of believing in a God to here's a God who really loves us, who is intimately involved with us, and then from that point, the Christmas story that he became flesh, right, and lived among us. This is such a great opportunity, and sometimes we miss it, and we want to make it friendly and fun and full of great songs and all of that, and none of that is in and of themselves wrong. But to follow that up or attend that with a good understanding of what this really means, I think is extremely important. It's of the greatest importance. Right?
- [22:12]
Scott Bertram
We will continue in a moment with Dr. Ken Calvert talking about the history of Christmas. But first, I'll ask you a question. Do you like the conversation? You're listening to right now, we want to know. Visit Podcast Hillsdale. Edu Click on the pop up and take our very first listener survey for the Hillsdale College Podcast Network that includes your thoughts on this show, the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Tell us what you like, what you dislike, and what you want to hear from us in the future. It will help out immensely. And please visit Podcast Hillsdale. Edu Click the pop up, take our survey. Thank you for your feedback and thank you for listening. We continue with Dr. Ken Calvert, professor of ancient history here at Hillsdale College as we dig deep into the history of Christmas. Dr. Calvert, this is a little bit off your field of expertise, but you mentioned Post World War II, right. And I look back at that and I just, I wonder, I'm curious because there is such an explosion of music and movies and traditions and all these things that start right in the two decade maybe period that linger to this day, that continue to this day. Why do you think that happened? Do we lay that all at the feet of commerce? Is there more happening here?
- [23:33]
Dr. Ken Calvert
There's more happening, absolutely. And yes, we can talk about it in a more cynical way. It's commercial, it's materialism and all of that stuff. Stuff. But I, I, I grew up with a veteran of World War II who saw combat, killed people, and people tried to kill him. And what do I see in my father and what do I see in these, this generation? There is a kind of relief and joy that some of us survived this. Let's make the most of it. We defeated Hitler, we put boundaries on Stalin, on this atheistic, anti Christian, violently anti Christian set of movements in Nazi socialism and in Stalinist communism, that we did that. And what we should do is be thankful for that and therefore turn to, you know, the one that we worship that, you know, helped us to be victorious or who's, whose providential design was that we be victorious. And so I think Christmas in my mind emerges in those decades as a moment in which you can just have a great celebration of life, of defeating evil, of moving on with new things in human history. All of which gets us back to the Christmas story, the life that comes from that, the defeat of evil that comes through Christ and all of the joy and possibility of the future. I see that not only in the United States, but in England. I've spent a lot of time in England and friends who just love Christmas and parents and grandparents who loved Christmas. You see this in Europe and in so many places where, you know, people who survived all of this were then able to just Unlock all of this Joy.
- [25:48]
Scott Bertram
We've talked a lot about different traditions and symbols. I don't think we've mentioned the Christmas tree itself. Where does that come into the picture? According to. Symbolize.
- [25:58]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Yeah, according to my reading. And again, this hasn't been entirely comprehensive, but that the first Christmas trees were with Queen Victoria in Buckingham Palace. Why did she choose this? Well, you know, she's, you know, that whole family is related to Germanic tradition and to the Germans. And in fact, you know, many of the kings that came before her, monarchs came before her, didn't even speak English. You know, all they knew was German. But she. I feel like, I think that, you know, from what I've read, is that this is a tradition that she brought, perhaps from Germanic background, but wanted to install and instill in English culture a symbol that was truly a symbol of Christmas. And what is the tree? The tree? I don't know, A symbol of life, of greenery. And on it, you know, the lights, the candles that were originally on that tree. And the idea of a creche, of a nativity scene, fairly early related to the Christmas tree, the idea that fruit grows on a tree. And, you know, that is a symbol of life and health. You know, also part of this, that the round Christmas ornaments that we buy and put on our tree, you know, symbols of fruit growing on a tree and of life. So, you know, all of that is a little bit puzzling, honestly, to everyone. But the Christmas tree practice and image is decidedly. It decidedly takes hold in England and America during the Victorian age and then becomes standard, you know, throughout. Yeah.
- [27:47]
Scott Bertram
And are you a live Christmas tree person or a fake Christmas tree person?
- [27:52]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Well, I'll tell you what, while the kids were young, it was always live. But after a time we got tired of vacuuming up the needles. And here as we grow older and our children are all grown up and have their own families and their own Christmas traditions or trees, we have now moved to the fake, which actually is pretty amazing. How soft they are and how realistic they look.
- [28:21]
Scott Bertram
A lot of advances in fake tree technology over the decades.
- [28:24]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Right? Exactly, exactly. Another spinoff of Christmas, you know.
- [28:27]
Scott Bertram
And then, Dr. Calvert, what about the creche? What about the nativity scene?
- [28:31]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Everyone loves the nativity scene and the creche. And every once in a while, you know, you'll see these poor people in the cold outside acting out at the nativity scene and for lots of churches or of course, the children in their parents bathrobes and, you know, acting out.
- [28:54]
Scott Bertram
I did it when I was young.
- [28:55]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Yeah, me too. I Did, too. Where did all that begin? Well, actually, it began in the 13th century, the 1200s, with St. Francis of Assisi. He wanted to find a new way, really, to celebrate the Nativity. And he was able to get this group of people from the community that he was in at that time together, and the monks that he was working with, get them all together. Live animals in a manger. You know, the whole thing that we have come to imagine, he was the first one that we know of who did that. And all of it very much a part of the Ministry of St Francis, who really wanted people to love the Christ Child.
- [29:43]
Scott Bertram
Is there any particular tradition or symbol for you that really captures the beauty, the truth of Christmas?
- [29:52]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Yeah, I think that, for me, the most important symbols, honestly, when Christians bring them into their Christmas celebration, is honestly a symbol of the cross and within the Catholic tradition. I'm Catholic. The crucifix. Paul says, I boast in nothing but Christ and him crucified. You know, that's all we have to boast in, all we have to hope in. And that the birth of Jesus. You know, Christmas celebration is always connected with Easter. It is always connected with the Passover, with the. The death and resurrection of Jesus, the death of sin, the resurrection to new life. I think that any Christian family who, you know, really incorporates that into their celebration of Christmas is just doing the right thing. And that's. That's something that I always appreciate about Christmas, is bringing all of that together, the whole message. Right. Yeah.
- [31:02]
Scott Bertram
We hear critiques of the Christmas holiday today. It is too materialistic. The focus is too broadly upon giving, receiving gifts. Maybe it's not inclusive enough for a pluralistic society like the one we have here in America. Is Christmas still a good.
- [31:21]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Yeah, I think it is. I have to say that I think that it is. You know, the word Christmas, it tells us it's kind of owned by the Christians. Right. And even if we say holidays, you know, it's still a holy day. Right. And so, you know, what do you do with that? Well, I think there's a way in which, you know, across a pluralistic society, we can all appreciate this. Within Judaism, this is the time of Hanukkah, and that echoes back to the War of the Maccabees, in which the temple is cleansed and there's oil in the lamps, and they're able to last out against a pagan oppressor. There is a sense in which we can affirm this idea of freedom from the oppression of sin and of the oppression that's upon us. Within Islam, there is a great appreciation for Jesus. He's not divine, but he is a great prophet. And in fact, within Islam, there is an appreciation of Mary, more so than in many other religious expressions. And so, you know, there's a way to talk about that and to celebrate that with our Muslim neighbors, with those who are, you know, in the secular world. Maybe if I have a libertarian friend, you know, this is a great opportunity to make some money and provide a forward movement for our economy and give us that Black Friday in which, you know, all of the budgets are met, you know, that this is a moment of celebration. You know, why not, you know, pop open a bottle of champagne and enjoy that? You know, I think the folks that are going to be less likely to join with us are those who are just going to reject all celebrations of a God, all celebrations of a religious nature. But even among, you know, our atheist friends and fellow citizens, I think just the idea of a time of joy, a time of celebration, I think they could can certainly understand. And in God's general grace to all of our fellow citizens, you know, he's pouring out to them an opportunity to see what's possible. Right.
- [33:40]
Scott Bertram
Dr. Ken Calvert is professor of Ancient history here at Hillsdale College. As we talk today about the history of Christmas. Dr. Calvert, thanks for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.
- [33:52]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Thank you, Scott. A great pleasure.
- [33:54]
Scott Bertram
Up next, Dr. Chloe Carmichael joins us. Her new book is Can I say why Free Speech Matters and How to Use It Fearlessly. I'm Scott Bertram. This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. You know the Robertson family from the hit TV show Duck Dynasty. Now Hillsdale College offers you the unique opportunity to learn alongside the Robertsons as they dive deep into Hillsdale's online course, the Genesis Story. Every Friday on the Unashamed podcast, the Robertsons will share their insights and perspectives. Learning from Hillsdale professor of English Justin Jackson. Take a trip down south to Louisiana for this one of a kind learning experience we call Unashamed Academy. Visit unashamedforhillsdale.com and enroll today. That's Unashamed. F O R hillsdale.com to experience the genesis story alongside the Robertsons.
- [35:09]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Great books, great people, great ideas. Learning about these things is critical to being a well educated human being. And we can help with the Hillsdale dialogues. Each week, Hillsdale College president Larry Arne joins radio veteran Hugh Hewitt to discuss topics of enduring relevance. And from time to time, they also talk about current events, but always with an eye toward more fundamental truths. And they want you to Tune in to a conversation like no other. The Hillsdale Dialogues are posted every Monday on the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at Podcast Hillsdale.
- [35:42]
Scott Bertram
Eduardo.
- [35:44]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
That's Podcast Hillsdale. Edu or listen via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you find your audio.
- [35:59]
Scott Bertram
Welcome back to the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. I'm Scott Bertram. Be sure to check out the Hillsdale College Podcast Network at Podcast Hills, Hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio. We're joined by Dr. Chloe Carmichael. She is a clinical psychologist and USA Today best selling author. You can find out more about her and this book we'll be discussing today at free speech today.com and the book is Can I say why Free Speech Matters and How to use it fearlessly. Dr. Carmichael, thanks so much for joining us today.
- [36:35]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Thank you, Scott. It's great to be with you.
- [36:38]
Scott Bertram
Thank you for the book as well. It's a very interesting read and portions are unlike, I think, what you'll read in other books about the similar topic. Right. I want to start early though. You mentioned that as Cancel culture and self censorship rose in the country, so did loneliness. What's the correlation between those things?
- [36:59]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Yeah. So when we're not being honest and authentic with people about what we really think because we're afraid of being canceled, or they're not being honest because they're afraid of being canceled, it degrades the quality of our social support. So, you know, you might even be surrounded by other people, but you could feel like the loneliest person in the world if nobody really knows how each other feels because they're all afraid of Cancel culture.
- [37:27]
Scott Bertram
Is what we've lived through the past six years, eight years, relatively unique in, I don't want to say human history, but I guess I mean, human history, is this something that we haven't really dealt with before on an interpersonal level?
- [37:41]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
That's an interesting question. So as I was researching for my book, Can I say that why Free Speech Matters and How to Use It Fearlessly. I actually looked into the etymology of the word censor because I was interested in self censorship. And your brainy Hillsdale College community probably already knows this, but I learned that the word censor actually comes from Roman times, that they had these soldiers that were actually called censors and they would go around throughout all of the territories and tell everybody living in those Roman controlled places what words and opinions and moral viewpoints were acceptable for them to have. And that is where now we get the word censor. So in some way we might feel like this is new but what was actually new was the concept of freedom of stuff speech. When our country was founded, that's what was new. I'm afraid what we're experiencing now is more of a regression to the mean.
- [38:44]
Scott Bertram
This idea that words are violence is something that is ridiculous on its face, yet has been popularly accepted in some circles. Why is it so important to draw that distinction? That words in fact are not violence?
- [38:59]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Yeah, yeah, Scott, you said it perfectly. It's ridiculous on its face, right? But it sounds so catchy. It is important to understand it, though. You see, it's kind of an insidious phrase because it sounds like it's just trying to communicate to people, hey, you know, words can hurt, you know. Okay, fair. That's true. But words are not violence. Violence is a very special word within our judicial system as well as in our basic human psyche, you know, which laid the foundation for our judicial system. Humans have an innate need for reciprocity and we have an innate understanding of the concept of self defense. So, you know, going all the way back to, you know, an eye for an eye or, you know, protect my home, that kind of thing. So when we start saying words are violence, what we're doing is we're setting up basically a self defense argument for people to respond with actual violence to words that they don't like. Just like we saw at UC Berkeley yet again, you know, and I say yet again because they were one of the worst offenders in 2017. They had a terrible riot over free speech when Young America's foundation came there. So as a clinical psychologist, I call that phrase literally a psychotic. Psychotic means broken from reality. And so when people start saying words are violence, they are breaking from reality when they're starting to, you know, glom onto the idea that if somebody says something that you don't like, it's as if they're doing violence to you, and therefore you can respond in kind.
- [40:42]
Scott Bertram
Dr. Chloe Carmichael is with us. Her new book, Can I say why Free Speech Matters and How to Use It Fearlessly. You mentioned UC Berkeley. Why is it so hard to use free speech fearlessly on our college campuses? Why are universities ground zero for so much of this problem?
- [41:01]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Yeah, well, there's an increasingly leftist bent. I'm sure this is no great news flash to anybody here, but there's an increasingly leftist bent at our universities. For example, in the Northeast. Scott, you wanna take a guess what the liberal to conservative faculty ratio is in the Northeast? Take a guess.
- [41:23]
Scott Bertram
I will take a guess. I will be wrong. I'll say it's Something along The lines.
- [41:27]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Of 20 to 1, 28 to 1, you're close. It's 28 to 1. And the number is only intensifying. So colleges and universities have long been left leaning, but unfortunately what they're doing is they're becoming more and more biased and only admitting people who think themselves. So the tilt is getting heavier and heavier. And intellectually, what that does is it literally creates what psychologists call group think, where you have, you know, there's eight main ingredients for groupthink, according to Irving Yanis, the psychologist who coined the terms. And one of them is something called the self appointed mind guards. And that's basically what the professors have become, as if it's just now supposed to be gospel, that because, you know, a university says it's better to use pronouns, you know, that therefore that that's some kind of a gospel. And then we have all these, you know, wonderful young eager minds that maybe are even appropriately deferential, like they're going to a university, they're going to, to a certain point, defer to the professors, assuming probably they know better and know more, and it just becomes basically a leftist, it's, you know, indoctrination center. I can really see why people are calling it that. And then students are afraid to because they're not only socially ostracized, they're intellectually shamed because the self appointed mind guards, you know, are suggesting that only a buffoon would think this way. And then moreover, there's another ingredient of groupthink, which is direct pressure upon dissenters and, you know, grade point averages. That's some pretty direct pressure. Letters of recommendation. I personally parroted a lot of talking points in order to get through my Ivy League education and get my PhD. So I know what it's like and I'm so thankful for places like Hellsdale. I want my son to go there.
- [43:27]
Scott Bertram
Dr. Chloe Carmichael with us. Can I say that is the new book. And the first part of the book in which you lean into your training as a clinical psychologist is most interesting because again, it's not very common to sort of approach the issue in this manner. Why do you argue that defending free speech is in part at least a mental health issue?
- [43:51]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Yeah, so I mean, I frankly felt like I needed to do this as a public service announcement because my own profession is 90% plus liberal. And unfortunately right now free speech is coded as some kind of a right wing issue. So there's no psychologist standing up for the mental health benefits of free speech. So that's what I wanted to Give people a way to answer back and to understand. If somebody tries to silence you for the quote, mental health of others, you should explain to them that actually freedom of expression promotes cognitive development. It promotes emotional regulation, it promotes stronger social relationships. So, you know, speaking aloud is one of our most unique gifts as humans. It gives us objectivity over problems. It's been shown to increase problem solving skills. Using emotional words to label our feelings has been shown to decrease amygdala activity, which is the part of the brain that becomes very fearful. And we're more prone actually to be violent and erratic when we, when we can't talk openly. That's why, you know, use your words is one of the first things we want to teach violent offenders to do. And then we've already discussed with social support that, you know, being able to have a heart to heart with someone and tell them what you really think, that actually drops people's cortisol levels. So for a million and one reasons, speaking freely and taking your internal life and putting it into words, words promotes your cognitive, emotional and social well being.
- [45:24]
Scott Bertram
And then the first chapter, the second chapter talks about the gifts of language, the cognitive gifts of language, the emotional gifts of language. What do we humans get out of the exercise at? Expression through language.
- [45:40]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Yeah, so it helps us to develop good ideas and discard bad ones, for example, through cognition. So we've all had the experience of when we say something aloud, we even maybe realize as we say it aloud, oh gee, that doesn't quite make sense. Like now that I hear myself say it right. And that's, you know, language is almost like breathing in that we don't think about it a lot. But if you, if you interfere with someone's breathing, suddenly they realize it's really essential to their, you know, well being. And speech is the same way. There's unique regions of the brain that are specifically just devoted to speech. And so when we interfere with someone's ability to speak freely, it's like we're interfering with their ability to use their brain freely. It's to me, it's like as if we're cutting off a finger or two. You know, it's like we're literally coming at their, their basic human faculties and disabling them. You know, in our Constitution, the first Amendment and all of it is that these are God given rights. And the word psychology traces to the Greek word for spirit. So I think that there's a lot of overlap there, that it's a psychological well being issue, it's a spiritual wellbeing.
- [46:57]
Dr. Ken Calvert
Issue.
- [46:57]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
It's a God given right for us to be able to speak freely. And you know, even with like the quote, worst ideas, you know, people in the KKK or jihadi recruiters, even they, when they leave those cults, they will always say it's because somebody sat down in dialogue with them, not because somebody told them shut up, you're not allowed to say those ideas. It just pushes ideas down, makes them fester and actually allows people to have those ideas without even having a rational check on them.
- [47:30]
Scott Bertram
Dr. Chloe Carmichael with us. Can I say that is her new book why Free Speech Matters and How to Use It Fearlessly in both the Cognitive Gifts of Language and Emotional Gifts of Language. Chapter Reducing Anxiety and Depression is bullet pointed as a big factor. Is that because if we don't feel we can speak freely and say what we think or say what we believe, that we're constantly worried about what we say and then we also feel in part that no one really knows exactly who we are.
- [48:04]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Yeah, it's all of those things and more. So, you know, social support is absolutely a strong protective factor against clinical anxiety or depression. So we've already talked about how when people are not being themselves, of course that's isolating and can cause anxiety and depression. But also the healthy function of anxiety is to stimulate preparation behaviors and you know, having productive problem solving conversations with people where you, you know, exchange information and ideas, you label your emotions, you start to get a sense of control over them. All of those things would be productive. That would be like a treatment for anxiety. Right? Is to come in and talk about what you're feeling. And so when we interrupt people's ability to do that, we're interrupting their ability to, we're taking away an important coping strategy and depression. One of the key features of depression is a sense of helplessness. And again, language is how we organize and create plans of action and, you know, summon resources amongst our support network. Depressed people, one of the first things we want to stop them from doing is retreating into themselves and isolating. Right. So, you know, free speech, I just think it's so important again because I see so many people, even members of my own profession, trying to silence people in the navy of mental health of saying, well, because of hate speech and bullying, we have to put on these really strict speech codes. And it's like that's the opposite of what we want to do. If we care about mental health and even conflict, whatever's underlying this quote, hate speech or bullying, that is still also going to be better solved through dialogue than by telling people to shut up.
- [49:43]
Scott Bertram
Dr. Chloe Carmichael with us, more about the book@freespeechtoday.com you addressed three common objections to free speech in the new book. And I wanted to ask about the one of misinformation. So we of course hear this today. Oh, well, free speech is great, but what about those people who are trying to intentionally lie to us or get us to feel some way by presenting false information? How do you connect free speech to this, this idea of misinformation and trying to police misinformation?
- [50:13]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Yeah, well, I mean, just think about COVID right? We were silenced. You couldn't get on YouTube or anywhere, Twitter, anywhere and, you know, discuss that, that maybe Covid had, know, connections to a lab leak or that maybe the vaccine wasn't going to, you know, stop the spread or, you know, maybe we shouldn't be masking little children or, you know, maybe masking isn't really helping anybody or maybe we should open the schools up. All of that was, you know, categorized as misinformation and people were literally, you know, deplatformed even, you know, now we know by the big hand of the government behind the scenes, which is a true violation of the first Amendment, even in a legal sense, going even beyond social pressure, you know, but even going back to the times of Galileo when he was jailed for saying that the earth orbits the sun. So no matter what, if we're worried about, quote, misinformation, the answer is to expose it, you know, through debate and through open dialogue and through robust discussion. It's through silencing people that we actually degrade the quality of our information and of our ability to have checks and balances, these self appointed mind guards, whether it be the media or universities or wherever else we should and can think and speak for ourselves.
- [51:30]
Scott Bertram
Part two of this book, can I say that, deals with tools for open dialogue. If one finds oneself in a situation in which you feel you cannot speak freely or you cannot speak your mind for whatever reason, what tools are available? What recommendations do you have?
- [51:51]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Yeah. So I, I thank you for asking that because part two of part one of the book, as you said, is the cognitive, emotional, psychological benefits of free speech. And part two is the practical tools. Tools for speaking up as well as for listening respectfully, because both are really important for open dialogue. But there, there is a little section about, hey, what if you really can't speak up? What if you're not fortunate enough to be at Hillsdale and you're at some ridiculous liberal school where if you say that a man cannot become a woman. You're just going to be automatically failed. And, you know, maybe, maybe you don't want to go through all the legal fight and stuff. So you decide to just sing that professor's song to just get through the course. Okay. What you must at least do, in my opinion, is at the very least, it's important to journal what you really think or to talk to a friend on a daily basis about what's happening and what you really think. And I offer some other types of techniques too. But the reason for this is because what you're doing in that classroom is you're doing repression and suppression. And if we do that often enough, we go into denial where we start to lose touch with our real thoughts because we're, you know, pretending so often to. To do something else. We can almost stuff our feelings down so deeply that we become disconnected with them. So it's really important. Just like, say, when. When a victim is coming out of an abusive situation, it's important for them to talk about it reconnects them with the reality of what the social norms are supposed to be like. That's why abusers always want to separate and isolate their victims. So it's really important, even if it's just in your journal or just gabbing with your friends about what ridiculous things you know are going on that you're not allowed to talk about, you have to talk about them somewhere because that gift of speech and language is so important for your mental health.
- [53:40]
Scott Bertram
Chloe Carmichael, Dr. Chloe Carmichael. The book Can I say that? Is much about. About speaking and free speech. But the end. It's five tools for Self restraint. The idea that as important as speaking up is, it's also important to listen. And it's an essential part of open dialogue. So how can we truly hear what that other person is saying in our conversation?
- [54:05]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Yeah, so that can be hard. And I'll admit that too. I've had trouble sometimes speaking up, and sometimes when I get charged up, I'm chomping at the bit, right to speak. And that phrase, chomping at the bit, if we think about it, it's really also, it comes to, like a clenched jaw, and it's like, you know, your lips are poised to speak. It's like even if you're not actually speaking, you're interrupting with your face sometimes in a conversation. So one of the exercises is actually just teaching people how to specifically relax their mouth, their tongue, their jaw, just, you know, silently in their head while they're listening to just Cue their face and mouth that like, hey, it's, it's not time right now. It's time to listen. Another thing that can be helpful when we're hearing somebody speak and we just feel like they're talking so much nonsense that we just can't even stand it is to think back to a time when we believed something that we now recognize as nonsense. Those of us, you know, who are, you know, over 30 can probably do that a little bit easier. So, you know, I, I can think back to political views that I held 20, 25 years ago that make me cring. And so what I can do if I'm talking to somebody that's, you know, making no sense to me and I feel like even a little bit of resentment towards them for their views that how could they think something so ridiculous? I can remember back to some of the things that I used to think and believe, forgive myself for that, and then try to transfer that same kind of grace over to the other person. And then just the last technique, really quick and simple, is to just challenge yourself to see how many minutes, minutes you can go listening before you interrupt or how many questions in a row you can ask before you feel that you need to start asserting your own opinion into the mix. The more we do this and show people that we're truly listening, it can disarm them, it can take the temperature down and it can make them more willing to listen to you.
- [56:04]
Scott Bertram
Dr. Chloe Carmichael, a clinical psychologist, USA Today best selling author. The new book Can I say that? Why Free Speech Matters and How to Use It Fearlessly. You can find more@free speechtoday.com Dr. Chloe Carmichael, thanks so much for joining us here on the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.
- [56:24]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Thank you, Scott. And just one more thing I want to say if people want to, you know, let me know, go to freespeechtoday.com I'm hosting free online discussion groups for people that want to talk about this wonderful Dr. Carmichael.
- [56:35]
Scott Bertram
Thanks again.
- [56:36]
Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Thanks.
- [56:37]
Scott Bertram
That will wrap up this it is edition of the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour. Our thanks to Dr. Ken Calvert talking about the history of Christmas next week, the meaning of Christmas and Dr. Chloe Carmichael, her new book Can I say that? Remember, you can hear new episodes every week on this station. You can also find extended versions of some of our interviews like this week's with Dr. Calvert on the podcast. Find it at podcast hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your order audio. Until next week, I'm Scott Bertram and this has been the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour.