Can I Disagree with My Pastor About Debt?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ramsey Show Highlights – "Can I Disagree with My Pastor About Debt?"

Episode Information:

• Title: Can I Disagree with My Pastor About Debt?
• Host/Author: Ramsey Network
• Release Date: February 23, 2025
• Description: In this episode, listeners explore the challenges of reconciling personal financial principles with differing views within a faith community. A caller seeks advice on navigating disagreements with his pastor regarding the use of debt.

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Introduction of the Caller: William's Financial Transformation

The episode begins with William, a devoted church attendee of over a decade, reaching out to share his positive experience with the Ramsey Network's "Baby Steps." He states:

[00:10] William: "First off, huge fans of the show. We've been doing the baby steps for about a month now. We're totally sold out. Changed our life, changed everything about us, but awesome."

William emphasizes the profound impact the Baby Steps have had on his and his wife's lives, instilling a debt-free philosophy that has altered their financial and personal dynamics.

Conflict with the Pastor's Views on Debt

Despite the success of the Baby Steps, William encounters a dilemma stemming from his long-term relationship with his pastor. He explains:

[00:45] William: "Our pastor isn't aligned with this viewpoint of debt that we now have. [...] He's mentally straining. His mentality is, you'll always have debt. That's a part of life."

William clarifies that while his pastor hasn't explicitly preached about debt from the pulpit, his personal conversations reveal a belief that debt is an inherent aspect of modern life. This divergence creates mental strain for William, who now values a debt-free lifestyle.

Exploring Biblical Perspectives on Debt

George probes deeper into the pastor's theological stance, referencing biblical scriptures:

[01:12] George: "Has he read a book out there, it's called the Bible, as he looked into that."

[01:18] William: "Yeah."

[02:05] Ken: "So, William, [...] if this is a stumbling block for you, another scripture, and he is a stumbling block for you, then remove yourself out of the path of the stumbling block."

The discussion touches upon Proverbs 22:7 and Romans 12:2, questioning how these scriptures inform the pastor's acceptance of debt. William perceives that his pastor aligns more with societal norms rather than adopting a biblically strict stance against debt.

Advice from Ken and George: Navigating the Disagreement

Ken addresses William's predicament by offering strategic advice:

[02:47] William: "It's mentally draining."

[03:21] Ken: "What is your question for us? [...] if this is a stumbling block for you, [...] remove yourself out of the path of the stumbling block."

Ken suggests that William evaluate the significance of this disagreement. If it undermines his comfort and relationship within the church, seeking a new congregation may be advisable. However, if possible, maintaining the relationship without letting the debt issue dominate interactions is another path.

George reinforces this perspective, highlighting the importance of trust and alignment with church leadership:

[05:14] George: "If you can't deal with the incongruency and you also don't trust his leadership anymore, then I think that's going to weigh on you just like it would in a career."

George shares a success story from his own church, where eliminating $7 million in debt allowed for the redirection of funds towards impactful ministries:

[05:42] George: "They are funding ministries and new projects and they're building centers for recovery [...] That's the kind of stuff you can do when you're debt free."

This example underscores the potential benefits of a debt-free approach at the organizational level, aligning with William's personal experience.

Maintaining Church Relationships Amidst Financial Differences

The conversation shifts to the relational aspect of differing financial philosophies within a faith community. Ken illustrates how long-standing friendships can withstand such disagreements:

[07:15] Ken: "We just kind of know that."

[07:30] Ken: "We kind of know where we are. And because we value being around each other, we just steer clear of that particular topic."

Ken emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries and respecting differing viewpoints to preserve valuable relationships. He likens the enthusiasm for the Baby Steps to the transformative power of religious faith, advocating for sharing one's financial success without imposing beliefs on others.

Encouraging Financial Responsibility Within the Church

George introduces a proactive solution for William to integrate his newfound financial wisdom into the church community:

[08:31] George: "I think William should lead a Financial Peace University class in the church. Start a groundswell movement of people going, hey, we became debt free in our personal life. What's going on with the church?"

By initiating educational programs like Financial Peace University, William can foster a collective movement towards financial responsibility within the church, potentially influencing broader financial practices and philosophies.

Conclusion and Takeaways

The episode concludes with actionable insights for listeners facing similar conflicts:

1. Assess the Impact: Determine how significant the disagreement is to your personal well-being and relationship with church leadership.

2. Set Boundaries: Maintain valuable relationships by setting clear boundaries around topics of disagreement.

3. Lead by Example: Share your financial transformation through structured programs or informal discussions to inspire others.

4. Evaluate Leadership: If discrepancies in beliefs undermine trust and alignment with church values, consider exploring alternative congregations.

5. Focus on Common Goals: Emphasize shared missions and values to bridge gaps in specific areas of disagreement.

Notable Quotes:

• William on Life Transformation:

  [00:10] "We've been doing the baby steps for about a month now. We're totally sold out. Changed our life, changed everything about us."

• Ken on Addressing Stumbling Blocks:

  [02:05] "If this is a stumbling block for you, [...] remove yourself out of the path of the stumbling block."

• George on Trust and Leadership:

  [05:14] "If you can't deal with the incongruency and you also don't trust his leadership anymore, then I think that's going to weigh on you just like it would in a career."

• George on Organizational Benefits of Being Debt-Free:

  [05:42] "That's the kind of stuff you can do when you're debt free."

• George on Leading Financial Education:

  [08:31] "I think William should lead a Financial Peace University class in the church."

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This episode serves as a thoughtful exploration of balancing personal financial convictions with communal faith practices, offering strategies for conflict resolution and community engagement.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

Brought to you by chm, a biblically based alternative to health insurance. Learn [e-mail] budget so, me and my.

[William]

Wife, first off, huge fans of the show. We've been doing the baby steps for about a month now. We're totally sold out. Changed our life, changed everything about us, but awesome. I guess the, yeah, the, the issue that I. That we're having is we've been attending a church for about 10 years. 10, 11 years. I can't. I don't. Somewhere around there and. Well, our pastor isn't aligned with this viewpoint of debt that we now have. And we're just. We're just wondering how to navigate that because like I said, it's changed. It's changed everything about our life.

[George]

So when you say he's not aligned, is he. Has he from the pulpit talked about debt?

[William]

Let me think from the pulpit. No, but I, you know, Close relationship with him. I know his viewpoints.

[George]

Okay.

[William]

And the way, you know that the church structure is. And I'm not hating on. I love the guy. He's done so much for you. But I, you know, it's. It's mentally. It's mentally straining. You know, his mentality is, you'll always have debt. That's a part of life. Right. Wow.

[George]

Has he read as a book out there, it's called the Bible, as he looked into that.

[William]

Yeah.

[George]

Okay. How does he reconcile, you know, Proverbs 22. 7, the borrower slave to the lender.

[William]

Yeah. Like I said, I don't think he's. I don't, you know, I don't think he's preached a message on. On debt or use that passage. I think, you know, he just, you know, he looked and, you know, everybody, you know, just like everybody else, you know, looks at the world we live in and, you know, everybody uses debt. You know, they think they leverage debt.

[George]

Let me throw another one at you. Be not conformed. You know, that one to the pattern of this world. Be renewed by the. Does that not ring a bell for him either? That we shouldn't conform to culture and the stupidity of it?

[William]

No, I totally get what you're saying, Okay.

[George]

I don't have a theological basis for this. These are just like, just spitballing.

[Ken]

Well, listen, you're dropping scripture, George. There's no shame in your game. Here's my question. So, William, the pastor is not. You're not calling because the pastor is preaching this and trying to lead the flock and all this. And he's not anti you and your wife being a Part of the baby steps and. And FPU and all that stuff. It's just when you guys are having conversation, you're kind of on fire, and you're talking about all this, and this is just kind of two dudes talking, and he just kind of glibly throws out. Yeah. You know, And. And this kind of just bothers you a little bit. Is that what I'm getting?

[William]

Yeah. Because it's different than a friend. You know, he's my pastor, and. And I love the guy.

[Ken]

Yeah. But here's my question. What is your question? For us?

[William]

Yeah. I don't. You know, it's. So for me, me and my wife now, this is. This. This has become part of our doctrine, you know, for me, because I've struggled for so many years when me and my wife got married. Ever since we got married, debt has been such a huge thing for us. It's. It's kept me up at night. Right. Everything you guys talk about. And then we started the baby steps, and there's peace now. Right. But to be in a position where you don't feel comfortable to talk with someone you know, you respect because you know their response, it's just. It's mentally draining.

[Ken]

So are you having this conversation all the time with him?

[William]

No. No. That's. That's the thing. Like I said, we just started. I haven't really brought it up to him. Yeah. I don't know. It's just.

[Ken]

Okay, so here's what I'm trying to get at. So, William, I feel. I feel you. I understand what you're saying. However, I think you've got this thing worked up really big in your mind, and I think it's actually not that big a deal. And here's what I. If this. If his view on debt as your pastor has got you to a place where you just are uncomfortable with him on other issues, it's time for you to go find another church. However, I want to point out that as a pastor's kid, that.

[George]

You have.

[Ken]

To decide, what is it? What does that relationship look like? What do I want it to look like? And is this something that is worthy of me leaving the church? And if it is, fine. That is your prerogative. I got zero problem with it. But if you can still sit under his preaching and you feel like he's leading the church in a fiscally responsible way, because a lot of churches. Here's the other not so secret. Secret. There's a lot of churches out there that have debt and use debt, and they pay it off, and they use it to build buildings and everything else. So I'm not quite sure. You don't really have a question for us. You're just kind of going, what do you guys think? And so what I think is, is that if this is a stumbling block for you, another scripture, and he is a stumbling block for you, then remove yourself out of the path of the stumbling block. He doesn't think he's stumbling block, so you're not going to change his views on debt. And this is a guy that knows all that scripture. He knows it backwards, forwards, most likely. I hope so. And he's glib about it. So don't let this be a distress to you. It shouldn't be. You're given that way too much power, George. Yeah, I'm with you.

[George]

I'm not saying, hey, you need to leave the church tomorrow. I'm saying, if you can't deal with the incongruency and you also don't trust his leadership anymore, then I think that's going to weigh on you just like it would in a career. If you don't trust your leadership. You think there's a lack of integrity there, it doesn't align with your values, eventually that's going to eat away at your soul. And so I'm telling you, that would be a reason to leave. But if you're like, hey, good guy, theologically sound. We disagree on debt as a tool. All right, that's a different situation.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[George]

But here's a piece of this. Ken and my church, we inherited. There was a church merger. They inherited $7 million of debt, and they looked up and said, we're giving a million dollars in interest to lenders every single year. What if we aggressively attack this as a church and we freed up that million dollars to do the work of the church and that's exactly what they did.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[George]

And now they're able to fund ministries and new projects and they're building, you know, centers for recovery, and they have a whole ministry for single parents to fund car repairs and furnish cars for them. That's the kind of stuff you can do when you're debt free instead of, oh, we got to make payments. So that's what you're. Your tithes are going to kids.

[Ken]

Yeah. And I. This is a relational issue, and I want to hang out here for just a second, George, because I think this is important and I think I want to help William as best we can. But I have very good friends, George. I mean, very good friends. I love being with these friends. But we don't agree on some stuff. I mean, like the kind of stuff that's like, big stuff. And if we were to constantly talk about that, it would create a real tension. But I have found we don't need to talk about it because here's what I know they have thought and decided a long time ago this is what they think about this particular issue.

[George]

This is their worldview on this issue.

[Ken]

That's right. So have I. And I'm not changing it, and neither are they. Everybody's aware we didn't sit down and have this conversation, the way I'm laying it out. But we just kind of know that.

[George]

There'S sort of an unspoken boundary there.

[Ken]

We kind of know where we are. And because we value being around each other, we just steer clear of that particular topic. And the relationship is one of my. It's one of my favorite friends. So I. I just gotta tell you, I. I appreciate William, but there's this crusader mentality. We have it here in the building. And when people's lives are changed by the baby steps in this philosophy, you want to share that good news. It's the same as somebody coming to faith. Maybe they were an agnostic or an atheist, and their life is transformed literally by this good news. And what do they want to do? They want to share it everywhere. Why don't you get this? Why don't you get this? And not everybody gets the baby steps. Not everybody thinks it even matters. And it feels like this is the. So it's this real weird deal for William and a lot of us when we are so passionate and convicted about something that has transformed us. So here's the deal. Not everybody's going to get it, and that's not up to you.

[George]

Yeah, well, you just gave me a light bulb moment. I think William should lead a financial Peace University class in the church. Start a groundswell movement of people going, hey, we became debt free in our personal life. What's going on with the church? What if we could become debt free as a church? What could we do?

[Ken]

And the pastor's probably not going to be against that. The pastor just goes, my personal life, I don't mind carrying this, and I don't mind this. And you know, I get it. It's tough situation, but you don't have to lose relationships over some of this stuff, is my point. Do you? I mean, do you? It's hard enough to live your life, you know, trying to live someone else's. Ay, yay. I don't know. So anyway, food for thought. Thanks, William, for the call. You're a good man.

[Dave Ramsey]

CHM isn't health insurance, it's a health cost sharing ministry. Check it out for [e-mail] budget.