Do I Need To Pay My Wife Back Because She Makes More Than Me?

Summary

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Episode Overview

Main Theme
This episode of The Ramsey Show Highlights tackles the thorny issue of marital finances: Should spouses "pay back" each other if one earns significantly more? Caller Mark seeks advice after years of being expected to reimburse his higher-earning wife for major household expenses. Hosts Rachel Cruze and Chris Hogan dissect the situation, critiquing this transactional approach and emphasizing the need for unity, equity, and trust in marriage finances.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Original Question: Debt Between Spouses?

• Caller Mark asks if it's normal for one spouse to take on debt to “pay back” the other for shared major expenses, given disparities in income.
  • Rachel Cruze ([00:16]): “Because zero parts of that makes sense. No parts of that sentence.”
  • Chris Hogan ([00:20]): “Who told you that?”

2. Mark’s Financial Dynamic

• Mark’s wife earns much more ($130k+) and is more established, while he’s built his career from a starting position of $40-50k.
• The couple splits big expenses down the middle—his wife pays upfront from her savings, then Mark repays his half, sometimes causing him stress or the need to go into debt.
  • Chris Hogan ([01:41]): “I mean, you guys are fancy roommates.”
  • Rachel Cruze ([01:44]): “Who cuddle on the weekends.”
• Mark feels “like a renter at times” ([01:47]) and describes a lack of shared accounts, decisions, or financial goals.

3. The Underlying Issue: No United Front

• The hosts stress that the core problem isn’t who makes more, but the lack of marital unity in how finances are handled.
  • Rachel Cruze ([01:52]): “You have no shared financial goals, no shared accounts. Nothing about this screams we are married.”
  • Chris Hogan ([02:01]): Suggests Mark may need to initiate a conversation about becoming more financially unified: “There just sounds like a conversation needs to be had about you wanting to be closer to her and have more transparency and have less of a yours versus mine and more of an ours take on the money.”

4. The Income Change Doesn’t Fix the Root Problem

• Mark recently matched his wife’s income but worries about future imbalances if circumstances change.
  • Rachel Cruze ([03:03]): “Yeah, you making more doesn't solve the root problem here.”
  • Uses a personal hypothetical: “It would be insane for me. Like, well, hey babe, since you make nothing, you owe me half. That would be insane. I'd be sleeping on the couch if I'm lucky.”

5. The Marriage Mindset: Yours, Mine, Ours

• Rachel Cruze ([03:49]): “When it’s y’alls money... we make $180,000 a year. What are we going to do with this money? What are our goals?”
• Up to now, Mark’s relationship has featured “every man for himself.”

6. Gender Roles and Money

• Chris Hogan ([04:12]) raises the potential influence of gender expectations: “I don't know if it's both of you or her, where there's this feeling of since you're the man you have to be making as much of as her or more.”

7. Mark’s Concerns: Daycare, Mortgage, Savings

• Mark notes the expectation to split everything 50/50 regardless of income left his own savings depleted.
  • Rachel Cruze ([05:23]): “Yeah. The whole system is broke. How you guys been doing this?”
  • Chris Hogan ([05:26]): “Yeah, we're going to pull up the whole thing so you can almost, like, forget about that because we're starting over.”

8. Independence, Marriage, and Trust

• Rachel surmises Mark’s wife may be deeply protective of what she’s built.
  • Rachel Cruze ([05:31]): “She's being very protective of what she's built and therefore doesn't want you involved.”
• Mark recognizes the challenge: He appreciates her independence but feels shut out financially, leading to feelings of disrespect ([06:03]).

9. The Path Forward: Mediation & Communication

• Chris Hogan ([06:30]): “Sounds like you need a mediator, a counselor involved who can help you guys both hear each other and take what you're hearing from each other and actually convert it into some actions that are going to get you on the same page.”
• Mark shares that counseling has helped them recognize attachment patterns but not fix the underlying financial dynamic.

10. Long-Term Concerns: Savings and Retirement

• Mark worries about future implications: Will her savings “balloon” and his “stagnate or deplete?” What happens at retirement?
  • Mark ([07:49]): “Are you going to retire without me?”
  • Rachel Cruze ([07:51]) (jokingly): “Oh, sure, that's the plan. Leave you in the dust, Mark.”

11. Healthy Boundaries & Assertiveness

• Chris Hogan ([07:55]) encourages Mark to lean into the language of unity and politely decline participating in the “I vs. you” frame, focusing on our money and goals.
  • “When she starts using the I versus me and versus you language, you can say, well, I don’t want to participate, that I see myself together with you.... Just say, here’s what I’d like us to do. Here’s what I’m thinking would be great for us, our money.”

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Rachel Cruze ([00:16]): “Zero parts of that makes sense. No parts of that sentence.”
• Chris Hogan ([01:41]): “You guys are fancy roommates.”
• Rachel Cruze ([03:03]): “Yeah, you making more doesn't solve the root problem here.”
• Chris Hogan ([06:30]): “Sounds like you need a mediator, a counselor involved who can help you guys both hear each other and take what you're hearing from each other and actually convert it into some actions that are going to get you on the same page.”
• Mark ([07:49]): “Are you going to retire without me?”
• Rachel Cruze ([07:51]): “Oh, sure, that's the plan. Leave you in the dust, Mark.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:06 – 02:01: Mark outlines his financial arrangement and frustrations.
• 02:01 – 03:03: Discussion of marital unity and the need for financial transparency.
• 03:03 – 04:12: Why raising income won’t fix a broken system.
• 04:12 – 05:23: On gender roles and the emotional weight of "equality."
• 05:23 – 06:22: The dangers of financial independence within a marriage and the importance of trust.
• 06:22 – 08:37: Exploring counseling, attachment styles, worries about the future, and setting new boundaries.

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Actionable Takeaways

• Marriage = Shared Finances: Treating marriage as a financial partnership fosters unity, trust, and shared purpose.
• Don’t Let Income Determine Power: Money should be “ours,” not “yours vs. mine.”
• Counseling Can Help: Structured dialogue and mediation may help break unhealthy patterns.
• Lead with ‘Us’: Focus future conversations and decisions on shared goals rather than strict 50/50 accounting.

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This episode delivers a candid, sometimes humorous take on a series challenge facing modern couples: combining not just finances, but values, trust, and a true sense of partnership.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

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[Mark]

Is it normal, say, if one person makes more than the other, that, say, a big expense comes up, that the other person should go into debt to pay the other spouse back?

[Rachel Cruze]

Because zero parts of that makes sense. No parts of that sentence.

[Chris Hogan]

Who told you that?

[Mark]

Exactly. That's what I kind of felt. I mean, regardless of how the conversation is going to go, I'm like, I'd feel relief either way. Like, we're square now, but for a couple years there, it's been pretty stressful on my part to pay her back because.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, give me a real life example, something that's happened.

[Mark]

Yeah. So she's had a much more stable job than me. I mean, she's about 11 years older than me. So much more set in her job makes better money. How old at the time?

[Chris Hogan]

How old is she and how old are you?

[Mark]

She currently in her 40s, and I'm in my 30s. And when we met, I was in my 20s that she was in her 30s. Yeah. And so I was in the mindset of like, well, I'm still building my career. I've made big career changes. So a lot of the jobs that I had throughout our relationship and at the beginning of the marriage, I was only making 40, 50k while she's making 130k plus.

[Chris Hogan]

Okay.

[Mark]

So big household expenses come up, you know, solar H vac unit, big expenses. And, you know, she can pay that right out of her savings. Like, she had like 100 grand in savings and paid it in cash. But then it was like, okay, now you owe me half. I was like, okay. I was like, okay, so you don't have money.

[Chris Hogan]

I mean, you guys are fancy roommates.

[Rachel Cruze]

Who cuddle on the weekends.

[Chris Hogan]

Yeah.

[Mark]

And I've actually used that same term with her. Like, I feel like I'm a renter at times.

[Rachel Cruze]

Well, you guys are making no shared decisions. You have no shared financial goals, no shared accounts. Nothing about this screams we are married.

[Chris Hogan]

Now. Have you. Have you asked her about that or. Because here's. Here's what I'm hearing. If you've been going along with this for all these years and haven't really said the words, you know what? I. I feel like we should be combined. Then she's kind of just doing what she thought is normal, which is, I do my thing, you do your thing. We kind of split it 50. 50. You're not holding up your end of the bargain. So it just sounds like a conversation needs to be had about you Wanting to be closer to her and have more transparency and have less of a yours versus mine and more of an hours take on the money. Have you ever done that?

[Mark]

Yeah, as of recent. Within the past couple months. Because now that we're square and I'm actually making just as much money as her because my job I finally landed pays really well and then I started my own business that also did equally as well. So I'm like, okay, but my fear is, is like if I lose that job again or business doesn't do as well, I'm not making as much that.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, you making more doesn't solve the root problem here. For example, my wife stays at home. It would be insane for me. Like, well, hey babe, since you make nothing, you owe me half. That would be insane. I'd be sleeping on the couch if I'm lucky.

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[Rachel Cruze]

I'd be sleeping on the couch if I'm lucky. And so regardless of the situation, who makes more when it's Yalls money? Now we go, okay, we make $180,000 a year. What are we going to do with this money? What are our goals? Hey, we need to do this home repair. We want to go on this vacation. We need to pay off our debt. And so far it's been, well, Mark, it's every man for himself. Good luck out there.

[Chris Hogan]

And there's also, it sounds like there's some gender roles playing out where I don't know if it's both of you or her, where there's this feeling of since you're the man you have to be making as much of as her or more. I don't know if that's coming from both of you or just coming from you or just coming from her. But these are all things that need to be discussed out in the open very, very candidly so that at least you know where each other is coming from and then you're able to bring up, hey, I know that that's the way you feel, but that's actually not my viewpoint on it. And let's seek to learn about each other first instead of changing each other first. That's what I would do. That'd be my first order of business. Let's learn so that we understand where each other's coming from. Then we can start to kind of make changes. As opposed to taking today, I want to combine our finances that. It's probably not going to happen.

[Mark]

Yeah. And I guess another one with that is, say, mortgage and daycare for the kids. Because those times where I wasn't making as much, it was still expected that I'd pay the exact half. But I was like, well, that's going to not allow me to, say, put as much into, say, 401k or savings.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. The whole system is broke. How you guys been doing this?

[Chris Hogan]

Yeah, we're going to pull up the whole thing so you can almost, like, forget about that because we're starting over.

[Rachel Cruze]

Has she been married before? No. Okay. I'm wondering. This is coming from somewhere where she's being very protective of what she's built and therefore doesn't want you involved.

[Mark]

Yeah. And I brought that up where, you know, a very strong sense of independence and all that with. With her, I'm like, okay, I get it. Love that. But if it starts to get to a point where it's like, I don't need you, like, I've got this on my own, but kind of hold it against you is where I'm like, okay, that's. It's kind of disrespectful.

[Chris Hogan]

Yeah. Well, you become one. You become one when you get married. And it's not to say that you forsake everything that you are. You just stand next to somebody else and you both be fully who you are together. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

And the foundation of all this is trust and respect. And it sounds like you don't have either of those things from her.

[Mark]

Yeah. And that's what I've expressed to her over the years. And, yeah, I've stayed consistent with that. But at the same time, I'm like.

[Chris Hogan]

Sounds like you need a mediator, a counselor involved who can help you guys both hear each other and take what you're hearing from each other and actually convert it into some actions that are going to get you on the same page.

[Mark]

Oh, yeah, we've done that. I understand where her insecurities come from. But as far as, say, improvements on that over time, it's one of those things where it's like, I. I don't know if you're getting there to know that I'm on your. Not a leech.

[Chris Hogan]

What was the homework?

[Mark]

Well, mostly just not getting into a cycle, like falling into our. Our cycle with each other of say, the attachment styles, anxious or avoidant attachment styles, and understanding where people are coming from. Not jumping the gun and getting into your, you know, four horsemen. Bill Gottman.

[Chris Hogan]

But you're just saying you're just not. See.

[Mark]

Well, it's. As long as there isn't any. I mean, we've never been in destitute. We've never really been in major debt, nothing like that. So a lot of it to me is like, we're doing fine. But I don't know why your savings should continue to balloon while mine either stagnates or depletes. Because I'm like, what happens later in life?

[Chris Hogan]

Retirement.

[Mark]

Are you going to retire without me?

[Rachel Cruze]

Oh, sure, that's the plan. Leave you in the dust, Mark.

[Chris Hogan]

I mean, part of it is you can choose not to. There's some of this you can choose maybe not to participate in, which is when she starts using the I versus me and versus you language. You can say, well, I don't want to participate, that I see myself together with you and, and not participate in that. And just say, here's what I'd like us to do. Here's what I'm thinking would be great for us, our money. And you can really start leading the charge in that as much as you can. But. And when she starts to make those comparisons, just say, well, I did not plan to pay you back because I feel like it's our money and I don't like this feeling of power struggle that it's creating and really just hold your ground for a while. That's what I do.

[Dave Ramsey]

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