My Husband Thinks the Government Isn’t Real

Summary

Summary of "My Husband Thinks the Government Isn’t Real" Episode of The Ramsey Show Highlights

Release Date: July 22, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "My Husband Thinks the Government Isn’t Real", Mary shares a distressing account of her marital and financial struggles stemming from her husband's involvement in the sovereign citizen movement. Hosted by the Ramsey Network, experts Dave Ramsey and George Kamel delve into Mary's predicament, offering insightful advice to navigate her complex situation.

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Mary's Dilemma: Embracing Sovereign Citizen Beliefs

Mary begins by outlining the core beliefs her husband adopted from the sovereign citizen ideology:

Mary [00:36]: "The best of my knowledge is it's a group of people who don't believe that our government is actually a government that when Congress let out in the early 1900s, that the same people didn't come back in and they passed laws around our taxes and everything else and that it's unconstitutional and that when we were born, our Social Security number is used as collateral by the government."

She explains how these beliefs led her husband to make unilateral financial decisions without her consent, severely impacting their family's financial stability:

Mary [01:17]: "He stopped paying our taxes, stopped paying our mortgage and our car loans..."

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Financial Breakdown and Consequences

Mary provides a detailed account of the mounting debts and financial repercussions of her husband's actions:

• IRS Debt: Over $500,000 in back taxes, including fees.
• Mortgage: Approximately $170,000 remaining on a home valued between $500,000 and $600,000.
• Car Loans: $50,000 outstanding.
• Home Equity Loan: $20,000.
• Student Loans: $65,000.
• Additional Debts: $60,000 to $70,000 in medical bills due to a prolonged hospital stay ([06:23]).

Mary recounts near-miss instances with foreclosure and car repossession, highlighting the dire financial straits they are in:

Mary [02:01]: "We had a home loan that we got years ago and he stopped paying all of it. ... The sheriff showed up and... I found out when the sheriff came and said, here's your foreclosure papers..."

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Expert Analysis: Dave Ramsey and George Kamel Weigh In

Dave Ramsey and George Kamel analyze the situation, emphasizing the severity and offering strategic advice:

Assessing the Situation

Dave points out the inconsistency in her husband's approach:

Dave [03:05]: "So he's not spending this money. ... Everything comes threatening, he pays up the bills."

George breaks down the total debt, underscoring the urgency:

George [07:45]: "You have over $200,000 in consumer debt alone. You have $500,000 to the IRS, and then you have the $170,000 mortgage. So we're approaching a million dollars in debt."

Recommendations for Financial Recovery

The experts propose a multi-step plan to address the overwhelming debt:

1. Prioritize IRS Debt:

   George [11:30]: "The number one debt to focus on right now is that IRS debt. Pay these back."

2. Consider Selling the House:

   George [11:35]: "I would consider selling the house and renting to clean up this mess faster."

3. Implement the Debt Snowball Method:

   George [14:00]: "Then I would do the debt snowball. For the rest of these debts, focus on the smallest balances first."

4. Seek Professional Help:

   George [14:08]: "I'm going to gift you a session with a financial coach because the depth of your situation is far beyond what we can cover on a Ramsey show call."

5. Protect Financial Independence:

   Dave [13:30]: "I would be completely making myself independent."

6. Legal Consultation:

   George [15:31]: "I'd probably talk to an attorney and figure out what your rights are."

Addressing Marital Strain and Personal Safety

The conversation also touches on the emotional and personal risks Mary faces:

George [15:45]: "Right now I'm more concerned about your safety than anything else right now."

Dave [16:27]: "And I'm so, so sorry, but you got to fight for you right now with everything you got."

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Emotional and Personal Impact

Mary's emotional turmoil is palpable as she navigates the betrayal and fear of potential incarceration:

Mary [09:14]: "I did end up losing my position out of safety for the church."

Mary [10:03]: "What is keeping you guys together at this point?"

Dave [13:25]: "This is a marriage situation where you've got to put a stop to this with him. ... I think most women would have long since left this clown."

Mary expresses her love and commitment despite the chaos:

Mary [10:07]: "Well, I know he loves me, and I know that he's working at it, and I do love him. We've been together for 30 years..."

However, the experts challenge the authenticity of his professed love through his actions, urging Mary to prioritize her safety and financial independence.

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Conclusion and Next Steps

The episode concludes with a focus on actionable steps for Mary:

• Immediate Financial Actions: Prioritize IRS debts and consider selling the home to alleviate debt burdens.
• Professional Support: Engage with a financial coach for personalized guidance.
• Legal Measures: Consult an attorney to understand and protect her legal standing.
• Personal Safety: Secure financial independence to prevent further exploitation by her husband.

Dave and George emphasize the critical need for Mary to take decisive action to safeguard her future, underscoring the severity of her situation and the importance of professional support in navigating such complex financial and personal challenges.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mary [00:36]: "It's a group of people who don't believe that our government is actually a government..."
• George [07:45]: "You have over $200,000 in consumer debt alone. You have $500,000 to the IRS..."
• Dave [13:30]: "I would be completely making myself independent."
• George [15:45]: "Right now I'm more concerned about your safety than anything else right now."

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This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the profound impact that ideological beliefs can have on personal finances and relationships, highlighting the importance of seeking expert advice and taking proactive steps to regain control and stability.

Transcript

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[Mary]

I have a bit of a conundrum. I have taken over handling our finances from my husband. Just say he got into the sovereign citizen thing about 7 years ago. I asked him not to make any decisions, but he did and didn't tell me.

[Dave]

Tell me what? Tell us about sovereign citizen thing.

[George]

To the best of your knowledge, what is it?

[Mary]

The best of my knowledge is it's a group of people who don't believe that our government is actually a government that when Congress let out in the early 1900s, that the same people didn't come back in and they passed laws around our taxes and everything else and that it's unconstitutional and that when we were born, our Social Security number is used as collateral by the government. And so we have billions and billions and billions of dollars in an account somewhere and our signature can pay off debt. Just our signature. We don't have to pay back loans, we don't have to pay our mortgage. We don't have to pay anything.

[George]

Cool.

[Dave]

That's a fantastic idea. And you seem to know a lot about this. Like you've just heard your hubs weighing on and on and on about this. It sounds like.

[Mary]

Yeah, not just that, but in our arguments of me talking about being good stewards and having good character and when we say we're going to pay something back and we sign it, that because we said it and we signed it, that we need to do it and.

[Dave]

Right. So this key.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Dave]

So this has put you guys in a spot, I'm guessing extreme spot. What? Tell us what's, what's. What hole are you in?

[Mary]

Well, like I said, that's what he felt about the government. So he stopped paying our taxes.

[Dave]

Right.

[Mary]

He stopped paying our mortgage and our car loans, and we had a home loan that we got years ago and he stopped paying all of it. So I, when I took over, I took over last year and a couple of months in, one of the elders of my church gave me a number for a company to help me work on the deck. Taxes. And so now I have that extra bill and I just give you some numbers. Taxes are over half a million, including all the fees. Mortgage. They tried to close on the mortgage. They tried to foreclose twice. The sheriff showed up and like I said, I didn't know about any of this. I found out when the sheriff came and said, here's your foreclosure papers, you need to be in court next week. And Then I told my husband he needed to pay it, so he got us caught up. And then they repossessed my car, and so I told him he needed to pay it, and I got my car back. And then he didn't pay for another seven months, and they came out with foreclosure papers again. And I told him.

[Dave]

I said, hold on one second. Yeah, this is interesting to me. So he's. Forget the conspiracy stuff that he's all in and all this kind of stuff, but he's holding the money. He's not spending it. Sounds like.

[Mary]

He. He did the first time, the second time. So he works for himself, doing what we only. He's a contractor building homes, and he. No, it's commercial work, and it's very specialized, and he makes really good money.

[Dave]

Okay. So my point is. Is like, he. He's not spending this money. He just doesn't want to give it to the government or to the mortgage company or anything else. But it sounds like every time they come threatening, he. He goes out in the backyard, digs up a coffee can and provides the money. Is that what I'm hearing?

[Mary]

Not really.

[Dave]

Well, you just said he. He paid the car. He paid the.

[Mary]

The first time. The first time he did that with the mortgage. The second time with the mortgage, we lucked out that he got paid a little extra that month, and so that went to pay that. That back mortgage. And then. And then with the car, it. I don't know what he did. I think he talked them into putting everything towards the end of the loan to get us caught up.

[George]

Oh, gosh. So there's a giant balloon payment at the end.

[Mary]

Yeah, but I.

[Dave]

So is he now getting out of the. Is he out of the finances and he's not doing any of this nonsense and he's now letting you pay things on time?

[Mary]

He's agreed to let me do it. He doesn't agree with me, and I.

[Dave]

Don'T care about that part.

[George]

Have you told him that you prefer to not be homeless? That it's your American right to want to have shelter? Okay. What does he think about that? This guy doesn't seem like he cares about providing for you. Seems like he's more into his little conspiracy group.

[Mary]

Yeah, well, you know, we said the same thing about, you know, he says he doesn't care about money, and I said to him, so why don't you just give it to the people you said you'd give it to? You know, why are you keeping it? But he's not really keeping it either. He does like to spend and we have no savings.

[George]

Do you guys have one joint account or does he have a separate account that he spends from.

[Mary]

Well, the state came after him and took money out of the account. About 25 grand, which was every penny that we had. So he changed banks. They did it again. So he changed banks again. So what I did when I hired that company is he didn't like keeping receipts. So I found all of the banks that we had for those years and I've been systematically going through the bank statements to item the sentence company so we can at least have some kind of deductions on that. And I'm. I still have three years left to do of all of that and I have no idea.

[George]

Have you pulled a credit report for both of you?

[Mary]

Yes.

[George]

Okay, what is, what's the total damage.

[Mary]

Total that we owe?

[George]

Yeah.

[Mary]

I don't know the total yet. I know we still owe about 170 on our home. Our home is valued now around between 5 and 600. I'm not exactly sure because I haven't had it done. We've been in our home for 20 years.

[George]

Okay, and you owe 500,000 to the IRS. And what about these cars?

[Mary]

There's about 50,000 on the cars. There's about 20,000 on a home loan, about 65,000 in student debt.

[George]

Credit cards.

[Mary]

We had no credit cards until a couple weeks ago. My dad told me that he pays his house bills with the credit card and he just goes and he pays off the bill right then so that he can earn cash back. And so I thought that might be a good idea for me one way.

[George]

That's a terrible idea.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Mary]

Okay.

[George]

Is anyone in your life financially responsible?

[Mary]

My dad is. He has. No.

[George]

No, he's not. If you pay the mortgage with a credit card, you're incurring an extra fee which negates any cash back you could ever want. So. Mary, I don't know that we can help you in a two minute call. This is a nightmare and I'm scared you're going to go down with this guy and he. You're both going to be in prison if you keep this up.

[Dave]

Yeah. This is a, this is a marriage situation where you've got to put a stop to this with him. He's putting you in such a reckless situation at this point.

[George]

You need to protect yourself. Yes, I would. Separate accounts. Are you working full time?

[Mary]

I am not. I'm not able to.

[George]

Are you on disability?

[Mary]

No, I. I was a stay at home mom for 25 years working at My church last year.

[Dave]

Okay, so, Mary, hang on.

[Mary]

All of this. I lost my.

[Dave]

Mary, hang on. We got to do a quick commercial break. We'll come back and try to help you.

[George]

All right, Mary? You bet. You back with us?

[Mary]

Yes, I'm here.

[George]

Okay, So I heard you have half a million dollars in back taxes to the IRS. You have $50,000 in car loans, $20,000 in a home equity loan, $65,000 in student loans, and then you got 170 left on the mortgage, and the house is worth about five or six hundred.

[Mary]

And we also. My. My husband was in the hospital last year for extended period of time, so we also have about 60, $70,000 in medical debt. Okay, so that's supposed to be having surgery coming up, so I. I'm about to cancel it.

[George]

Boy, do you guys have insurance? Do you know what it's going to cost you?

[Mary]

Well, he didn't want to buy insurance either, so I just.

[George]

You guys don't have health insurance?

[Mary]

We didn't, but we do now. But it won't pay for anything until next year on the date that I signed.

[George]

Oh, my goodness. What's the surgery for?

[Mary]

A total knee replacement.

[Dave]

Oh, my gosh.

[George]

And you told us that you can't work.

[Mary]

I've been trying to work. I was working. I'm a worship leader. And so I was at my church, and I was struggling, and I went to my pastor with this, and he talked with the elders and deacons, and I did, too. And I ended up losing my position out of safety for the church.

[George]

What does that mean? Safety was the church in harm's way.

[Mary]

Because, well, if I got arrested because of all of this.

[George]

So even they see the writing on the wall.

[Mary]

Oh, yes. And they were talking with him, too. I told him he. I required him to start talking with an elder or find someone who's a mentor who knows the word that he could talk to about these things that he believes. And he did finally agree to go to counseling with me, and. But he's. He's not talking to anybody. He doesn't agree with them. He thinks they all held him accountable in a meeting. He even said he doesn't believe this, but he said that he thought I was being unfaithful because I didn't agree with him and that he had the right to divorce me, according to what Paul said.

[George]

What is keeping you guys together at this point?

[Mary]

Well, I know he loves me, and I know that he's working at it, and I do love him. We've been together for 30 years and.

[George]

Okay. But none of that actually shows that he loves you.

[Dave]

Yeah, I don't see a guy who.

[George]

Loves you if they came and repoed my wife's car, put me on the street, and made me homeless because my. My wife said, I don't want to pay bills. I don't know how. That's love. Love requires action.

[Dave]

Yeah, Mary, I didn't plan to.

[Mary]

I could. I could take care of the finances. So he. He's. He said, what does he make? And you can take care of it.

[Dave]

Well, but if he's spending it. Mary, you already said that he's been spending it, so you need to.

[George]

He needs to lose access to any money in this household.

[Mary]

Well, at this point, he's not spending because I'm controlling the finances, and he's agreed to ask me before he buys anything. But he wouldn't be able to even if he wanted to, because of the way our debt is now.

[George]

Yeah, you guys can't make minimum payments on that.

[Mary]

$30,000 in contract labor. That's another debt.

[George]

He should not be running his own business.

[Mary]

Right.

[George]

What does he make?

[Mary]

Close to 300 a year.

[George]

Okay, so there's some good news in all of this mess. He's got a great shovel that if you take control of, we can clean this mess up. And if I were you guys, can I just throw out a plan and see how you like it?

[Mary]

Yeah.

[George]

The number one debt to focus on right now is that IRS debt. Pay these back.

[Mary]

Yes.

[George]

So that's what I would focus on first, followed by all this consumer debt. I wouldn't worry about the mortgage right now. In fact, I would consider selling the house and renting to clean up this mess faster.

[Mary]

Really?

[George]

Yes. Because you have over $200,000 in consumer debt alone. You have $500,000 to the IRS, and then you have the $170,000 mortgage. So we're approaching a million dollars in debt.

[Dave]

Yeah, and, Mary, they're not. The IRS is not going to play around. This guy has already put you. Put you guys in a very precarious situation. I think the church was wrong to let you go, but the church was scared out of their mind. And. And honestly, I'm scared for you. And I. One. One more conspiracy Facebook post that your husband clicks on and he goes dark on all this again, and you're going down with him. And this guy's gone to counseling.

[Mary]

If he did that.

[Dave]

You what?

[Mary]

I told him I would leave if he did that.

[Dave]

Yeah, but it's too late. If he takes you down with Him. And then you go, well, that's the final straw. Now's the time to leave him until he changes. He has been confronted by pastoral staff. He's been confronted by a counselor. Confronted. And sheriffs. And when he's been confronted, he comes up with some crazy idea that you're cheating on him. You're the best woman in the world. I. I think most women would have long since left this clown.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Dave]

And I know you love him, and I'm not trying to be derogatory, but I'm telling you as a stranger who you called to ask my opinion, this is beyond bananas.

[George]

You're in an unsafe situation.

[Dave]

You are very unsafe. And he could say he loves you, but this is not the act of love.

[Mary]

No, I know, and that's why I called you, because I don't want to go to jail. But I didn't know he was doing.

[Dave]

I know you didn't. And at this point, I think you can prove that you didn't. And I love that you have control of the finances, but I would be completely making myself independent. George. Listen, Mary, in the next few minutes, I want you to pay attention to what George says, because you need to get independent of your husband right now, financially first. And I would put the ultimatum down that this dude does massive life change and proves it to you in some very specific ways before you ever even talk to this guy again. That's how serious I think this is. George. I want her to protect herself financially. What would you do if she was your mom, what would you do?

[George]

I would get your name off of anything he's connected to and make sure that everything is under your control and that he can cause no further damage. I would freeze all of his credit so that he can't go into debt even if he wanted to behind your back. You can freeze his credit with all three credit bureaus. And I'm going to gift you a session with a financial coach because the depth of your situation is far beyond what we can cover on a Ramsey show call. And I want to make sure that we can serve you well.

[Dave]

We want to help and.

[George]

And help you take the right next step. So we're going to gift that to you. It's free. It's on us to get on a financial coaching call with someone to walk you through this for what the. You know, what your specific area is. There's a lot of logistics here to. To walk through.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[George]

But I do think that it's probably wise for you guys to sell this house and maybe you go live on your own and rent somewhere.

[Dave]

I agree.

[George]

I don't know what that looks like financially for you with his income and you not having one, that's going to be difficult. But cleaning up the IRS debt is A1. Then I would do the debt snowball. For the rest of these debts, focus on the smallest balances first. Knock them out and freeing up a payment along the way. And you'll knock out the mortgage by selling the house. And it'll probably leave you with about 300,000 in profits that you can use to knock out over half of this IRS debt.

[Dave]

I go to your dad. I go to some family right now. You need to be around some safe people.

[George]

I'd probably talk to an attorney and figure out what your rights are. And if you, you know, if you're the, quote, innocent spouse in the situation, will. Will you be absolved of whatever crimes he's committed? I don't know.

[Mary]

Yeah. Is that who I would talk to about getting my name off of things?

[George]

Well, the name. Your name off of things would be refinancing. If your name is on there, I don't know that they'll just remove your name. But you can contact every lender that's out there that has his name on it and see if you can get out of it and say, listen, things that you weren't a part of. If he went and took any of these debts out behind your back, I don't know. There's so much here to unpack. I'm so sorry you're going through this. And right now I'm more concerned about your safety than anything else right now.

[Dave]

Yeah. Hang on the line, Mary. We're going to get you connected to a financial coach that can walk with you on this. And I'm so, so sorry, but you got to fight for you right now with everything you got.

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