Be the Tortoise Not the Hare

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ramsey Show - "Be the Tortoise Not the Hare"

Release Date: January 29, 2025
Host: Ramsey Network (John Deloney and George Camel)
Episode Title: Be the Tortoise Not the Hare

The Ramsey Show episode titled "Be the Tortoise Not the Hare" delves into financial challenges faced by listeners, providing practical advice grounded in Dave Ramsey’s financial principles. Hosted by John Deloney and George Camel, the show addresses a variety of caller issues related to debt management, investing, marriage finances, and personal financial growth. Below is a comprehensive summary of the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and notable quotes with corresponding timestamps.

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1. Grace’s Dilemma: Student Loans and Upcoming Marriage

Timestamp: 00:59 - 08:44

Caller: Grace from Orlando, Florida
Issue: Grace is facing substantial student loan debt ($180,000) and additional credit card debt ($15,000) as she prepares for marriage. She seeks advice on managing her debt before marrying her fiancé, who has no debt.

Discussion Highlights:

• Debt Management: Grace has been advised to file for bankruptcy, but hosts explain that student loans are generally not dischargeable through bankruptcy.
• Supportive Partnership: Her fiancé is supportive and committed to tackling the debt together.
• Emotional Healing: Hosts emphasize overcoming feelings of shame and embracing the support of her partner.

Notable Quotes:

• John Deloney (03:30): "He's signing up. He knows if you were lying to him, that'd be a different thing. He knows, and he looks at you and says, I love you anyway."
• George Camel (04:12): "It's not as I don't want you to think. This is like, oh, my gosh, everything's on fire... It's not the end of the world."

Advice Given:

• Financial Peace University: Hosts gift Grace and her fiancé access to Financial Peace University to guide them through managing their finances together.
• Budgeting Tools: Introduction of the Every Dollar app to help them budget effectively.
• Avoiding Bankruptcy Scams: Hosts caution against misleading bankruptcy advice and recommend focusing on debt repayment strategies.

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2. Anthony’s Investment Concerns: Bitcoin vs. Traditional Savings

Timestamp: 10:42 - 19:28

Caller: Anthony from Boston
Issue: Anthony has invested over $200,000 in Bitcoin while holding $70,000 in student loans. He contemplates whether to continue his crypto investments or adopt a more traditional savings strategy.

Discussion Highlights:

• Investment Risks: George Camel explains the volatility of cryptocurrencies and advises against putting substantial amounts in speculative investments like Bitcoin, especially with existing debt.
• Financial Prioritization: Emphasis on paying off debt, establishing an emergency fund, and then investing a portion of income into retirement accounts before speculating in cryptocurrencies.
• Psychological Impacts: Discussion on the stress and anxiety associated with high-risk investments.

Notable Quotes:

• John Deloney (15:14): "It’s not broke, don't fix it... Be the tortoise, not the hare."
• George Camel (17:37): "Especially when you're sitting on all these student loans, which tells me if you had the money to pay for your student loans, most people go, yeah, I'd love to pay them off."

Advice Given:

• Diversification: Recommend diversifying investments and not relying solely on high-risk assets.
• Debt Repayment: Prioritize paying off student loans before engaging in speculative investments.
• Long-Term Planning: Encourage building a solid financial foundation to ensure stability and peace of mind.

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3. Beth’s Inquiry: Mortgage Protection Insurance

Timestamp: 31:53 - 38:16

Caller: Beth from Chattanooga
Issue: Beth is considering purchasing Mortgage Protection Insurance (MPI) for her new home. Her husband is self-employed with health issues, and she fears financial instability if he becomes disabled.

Discussion Highlights:

• Insurance Needs Assessment: Hosts assess the necessity of MPI based on existing term life insurance and the couple’s financial situation.
• Debt and Income Clarity: Emphasis on understanding actual income versus business revenue to determine insurance needs.

Notable Quotes:

• George Camel (35:26): "So you can sell it right now. Yeah, yeah. Do it right now."
• John Deloney (36:03): "Based on your financial situation and just the ambiguity in your around your financial situation, it's going to make it worse."

Advice Given:

• Re-evaluate Insurance Necessity: Given that Beth already has term life insurance, MPI may not be necessary.
• Financial Transparency: Encourage the couple to sit down and clearly map out their financial situation to make informed decisions.
• Avoid Unnecessary Insurance: Recommend focusing on essential financial strategies over additional insurance products unless absolutely necessary.

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4. Braden’s Predicament: Car Loan and Disability Concerns

Timestamp: 24:48 - 38:16

Caller: Braden from Sacramento, California
Issue: Braden has a $15,000 car loan signed by his grandfather and is concerned about managing payments if he remains disabled and unable to work.

Discussion Highlights:

• Debt Resolution: Hosts recommend selling the truck to eliminate the loan and prevent financial strain.
• Age and Future Planning: Braden is 19, and hosts emphasize the importance of building a sustainable financial foundation early.

Notable Quotes:

• John Deloney (26:45): "Sell it right now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, do it right now."
• George Camel (27:34): "So you have to pay for a new truck or struggle with debt."

Advice Given:

• Asset Liquidation: Sell the expensive truck to clear the debt and reduce financial obligations.
• Responsible Borrowing: Avoid taking on loans that cannot be comfortably managed, especially when reliant on family members.
• Financial Independence: Encourage financial independence and avoiding dependence on others for debt repayment.

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5. Lucas’s Readiness to Move Out: High Income but Living with Mom

Timestamp: 28:26 - 34:18

Caller: Lucas from Newark, New Jersey
Issue: Lucas, a 24-year-old making $130,000 annually, is living with his mother and contemplating buying a house. He wonders if he’s financially ready to move out.

Discussion Highlights:

• Income vs. Living Situation: Despite a high income, Lucas feels unprepared emotionally to move out.
• Encouragement to Act: Hosts push Lucas to take immediate action by renting an apartment to gain independence.

Notable Quotes:

• George Camel (29:07): "Less than 25% of take home pay. That's. That's the angle."
• John Deloney (29:47): "Go get yourself an apartment this weekend and be moved out by this weekend."

Advice Given:

• Immediate Action: Encouraged to transition to independent living to build self-sufficiency.
• Budgeting: Ensure housing expenses are within 25% of take-home pay to maintain financial health.
• Gratitude: Suggest showing appreciation to his mother by gifting her the lease and dining out as a gesture of gratitude.

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6. Kathleen’s Challenge: Ex-Husband’s 401k and Child Support

Timestamp: 41:55 - 50:04

Caller: Kathleen from Salt Lake City, Utah
Issue: Kathleen’s ex-husband, who is disabled, has not paid alimony or child support for five months. He holds a $250,000 401k, and she is considering if she can access it to fulfill his obligations.

Discussion Highlights:

• Legal Constraints: Accessing ex-husband’s 401k is highly regulated and typically not possible without legal intervention.
• Financial Reality: Emphasis on understanding she cannot rely solely on his retirement funds for child support.
• Sustainable Solutions: Encouragement to find ways to make her own financial situation sustainable, possibly by adjusting personal goals.

Notable Quotes:

• George Camel (43:56): "I think you need to figure out how to make Kathleen's life sustainable without the outside help."
• John Deloney (44:38): "What I can tell you is that this is going to make it worse."

Advice Given:

• Legal Consultation: Recommend consulting with a legal professional to explore possible avenues for obtaining support.
• Financial Independence: Focus on building her own financial stability through education and employment.
• Avoid Unfeasible Solutions: Discourage attempts to forcefully access ex-husband’s 401k, which may lead to further complications.

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7. Bethany’s Concern: Supporting Husband’s Debt through Line of Credit

Timestamp: 54:31 - 73:23

Caller: Bethany from Toronto
Issue: Bethany is hesitant to help her husband repay his line of credit, fearing he will continue to incur debt even after her assistance.

Discussion Highlights:

• Marital Financial Transparency: Hosts emphasize the importance of joint financial management and transparency.
• Debt Responsibility: Both partners should collaborate on debt repayment instead of one supporting the other's debt.
• Setting Boundaries: Importance of setting financial boundaries to prevent ongoing debt cycles.

Notable Quotes:

• George Camel (55:24): "But I heard on the Internet that it's best to have separate accounts."
• John Deloney (57:34): "Your marriage is in some pretty thin ice, and that's worth addressing before you get into the money stuff."

Advice Given:

• Joint Financial Planning: Encourage Bethany and her husband to align their financial plans and work together to eliminate debt.
• Avoid Enabling Debt: Discourage assisting in repaying specific debts that could lead to a cycle of borrowing.
• Strengthen Marriage: Address underlying marital issues that may be contributing to financial disagreements.

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8. Victor’s Journey: Starting to Invest Wisely

Timestamp: 58:44 - 61:23

Caller: Victor from Tampa, Florida
Issue: Victor is beginning to invest and is seeking guidance on whether to use mutual funds or index funds. He has been using the Webull platform but is unsure if it’s the right choice.

Discussion Highlights:

• Investment Platforms: Hosts caution against using platforms designed for day trading, like Webull, for long-term investing.
• Strategic Investing: Recommend focusing on retirement accounts and diversified index funds through reputable institutions.
• Psychological Impact of Trading Apps: Discuss how frequent trading notifications can lead to impulsive investment decisions.

Notable Quotes:

• George Camel (60:13): "It's gambling for financial nerds."
• John Deloney (60:27): "It’s like tying your funds to a TikTok account."

Advice Given:

• Choose Stable Platforms: Shift to established investment platforms offering diversified, long-term investment options.
• Focus on Fundamentals: Prioritize paying off debt and building an emergency fund before engaging in additional investments.
• Avoid Speculative Investing: Steer clear of high-risk platforms to prevent financial losses and stress.

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9. Kristen’s Experience: Debt Negotiation Companies

Timestamp: 69:44 - 73:23

Caller: Kristen from San Antonio, Texas
Issue: Kristen and her husband are engaged with a debt negotiation company for settling $38,000 in credit card debt but are skeptical about the effectiveness and costs involved.

Discussion Highlights:

• Debt Negotiation Pitfalls: Hosts explain how debt negotiation companies often charge high fees without guaranteeing debt resolution.
• Self-Managed Debt Repayment: Encourage handling debt repayment independently to avoid excessive fees.
• Financial Discipline: Emphasize the importance of sticking to a budget and strategic debt repayment without external interference.

Notable Quotes:

• George Camel (72:56): "You make enough money, we'll figure it out."
• John Deloney (73:12): "It's the never again fee."

Advice Given:

• Evaluate Costs: Assess the total cost of debt negotiation programs versus self-managed repayment.
• Commit to Debt Snowball: Suggest using the debt snowball method to pay off debts systematically.
• Exit Unfavorable Contracts: Recommend cancelling agreements with negotiation companies if they are not providing value.

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10. Kirk’s Success Story: From Broke to Millionaire

Timestamp: 73:23 - 83:12

Guest: Kirk from Las Vegas, Nevada
Net Worth: $2.6 million
Household Income: $220,000
Age: 53
Occupation: Accountant
Education: Undergraduate and master’s degrees with high GPAs

Discussion Highlights:

• Financial Discipline: Kirk attributes his success to early financial planning, avoiding consumer debt, and investing wisely.
• Inheritance Impact: Received an inheritance that significantly boosted his net worth.
• Marital Finances: Maintains separate financial accounts, with a strong focus on mutual financial goals and transparency.

Notable Quotes:

• Anthony (Kirk) (78:44): "I hate debt. I want to become a millionaire."
• George Camel (83:09): "Be the tortoise, not the hare."

Advice Given:

• Start Early: Begin saving and investing as early as possible to take advantage of compound interest.
• Avoid Consumer Debt: Pay cash for major purchases like cars to avoid unnecessary debt.
• Long-Term Investing: Focus on long-term, diversified investments rather than speculative trading.
• Financial Education: Continuously educate oneself on financial principles to make informed decisions.

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Conclusion: Embracing Slow and Steady Financial Growth

Timestamp: 83:12 - End

In wrapping up the episode, hosts John Deloney and George Camel reiterate the importance of adopting a steady, disciplined approach to financial management—embodying the proverbial tortoise rather than the hare. They emphasize building a strong financial foundation, prioritizing debt repayment, and making informed investment choices to achieve long-term wealth and stability.

Final Notable Quote:

• George Camel (83:09): "Be the tortoise, not the hare."

Closing Advice:

• Steady Progress: Encourage listeners to adopt slow and consistent financial strategies.
• Financial Peace: Strive for financial peace by eliminating debt and building savings.
• Community Support: Utilize resources like Financial Peace University and budgeting tools to stay on track.

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Overall Insights:

• Debt Management First: Prioritize paying off debts before considering investments or additional financial commitments.
• Transparent Communication: Foster open and honest communication about finances within personal relationships.
• Informed Investing: Choose stable, long-term investment strategies over high-risk, speculative ventures.
• Financial Education: Continuously seek knowledge and guidance from trusted financial resources to make informed decisions.

The Ramsey Show effectively addresses real-life financial challenges through compassionate advice and practical solutions, encouraging listeners to adopt disciplined financial habits for lasting wealth and peace of mind.

Transcript

[John Deloney]

Foreign From Franklin, Tennessee, from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey show where we help people with their money, their relationships, their work, their mental and emotional health with just about everything. I'm John Deloney, joined by my good friend George Camel. And we're taking your calls live. Triple 882-55-5225. If you were born in the last century, the call is toll free. And if you were born in this century, you don't even know what that means. Triple 882-55-5225. Let's go out to Orlando, Florida and talk to Grace. Hey, Grace, what's up?

[Grace]

Hi. How are you guys?

[John Deloney]

I mean, I don't know a way we could be better. We're actually doing pretty good right now.

[Grace]

I love that. I love that. Thanks for having me.

[John Deloney]

What's up?

[Grace]

I was calling in because I am getting married. My fiance has no debt, but I am bringing in quite the load. I have about 180,000 in student loan debt. That's all private and about 15 in credit card debt. And I've been told multiple things. I've been told to file for bankruptcy while I'm single.

[George Camel]

No, you can't even tell you this.

[John Deloney]

You can't even discharge that 180.

[Grace]

Yeah. So I just, I feel out of options. I've been grinding. I got a higher paying job and I'm really trying, but I'm just curious.

[George Camel]

You know, did no one bring up the option of paying it off?

[Grace]

I have, but I mean, my monthly payment is about $800. I've defaulted on two of them already because it's four separate loans. And I just feel like every single month I'm barely scraping by.

[George Camel]

What's your income every month?

[Grace]

So I just took a sales job. I was working in ministry before. My base income is 55 for the year, so I make about 3,500amonth, not including commission. I'm just starting to make any kind of commission.

[George Camel]

What in tarnation was this degree for?

[Grace]

I wanted to go to med school and so I went to a private school. I went and played volleyball. I made terrible choices. I didn't have great oversight from my parents on what signing a private loan meant. And now I'm 27 and I'm really, really feeling the weight of that.

[George Camel]

So you didn't graduate?

[Grace]

I did graduate, but I ended up feeling like I was being called into ministry, so was obedient to that, decided that I wasn't going to be.

[George Camel]

Were you also called into 200 grand of student loan debt?

[Grace]

No, no, no.

[George Camel]

Okay.

[Grace]

I was 18 and stupid.

[George Camel]

Okay, so what's the actual degree you got?

[Grace]

Biology.

[George Camel]

Okay. And you're not in that field currently, or are you working in a close field?

[Grace]

No. So I work in medical device sales.

[John Deloney]

Okay, so you can make some cash in that gig.

[Grace]

Yes, yes. I'm just starting, though. I'm literally three months in.

[John Deloney]

All right. What does your fiance think about marrying somebody who's going to bring 200 grand of debt into the marriage?

[Grace]

He actually is not scared. He knows that this is right and this is from the Lord, and he is like, we're going to do this together. We're going to tackle it together.

[John Deloney]

So why won't you allow him to love you as he is signing up to do for the rest of your life?

[Grace]

I know you don't believe him.

[John Deloney]

No, this is about shame and embarrassment.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

He's signing up. He knows if you were lying to him, that'd be a different thing. He knows, and he looks at you and says, I love you anyway. Let's go build a life. This is going to be issue number one of about 10,000 you and I are gonna have to tackle together over the next 75 years. Let's. Let's make a run at this thing.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

And if you want some encouragement, go check out our friend Jade Warshaw's story. Her and her husband were making, what, 30 grand when they started paying off almost half a million in debt? So we've seen worse. And what they did was they got their income way up. By the end, they were making over 200 grand. And you guys will be, too, once you're married. Let's set a plan. We're going to say, all right, we're going to throw five grand of this debt every month. That's 60 grand a year. It's done in this amount of time, and bada bing, bada boom, you're out of debt in less than three years.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

So it's not as I don't want you to think. This is like, oh, my gosh, everything's on fire. It's bad. Let's not, you know, mince words, but it's not the end of the world. I need to file bankruptcy and start over.

[John Deloney]

And can I challenge you with something?

[Grace]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

I didn't hear you say this. And so I'm reading the tea leaves, and so maybe this isn't you, but maybe this will help another caller who's not you. If God wants your attention, he'll get it.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And sometimes we feel called into things, and I can imagine Feeling called into ministry. But if you've already dug yourself a $200,000 hole, most ministry is not going to pay you enough to cover that. Right. If you're somebody who, on the right, on a regular basis, is just waiting to get some kind of word or some kind of. I hear that more and more these days. And what it's doing is giving people this pseudo permission to sit on the sidelines and wait for life to just happen to them. What I want you to do is to begin to take full action in your life. And if God wants you to go a different direction, I promise you, you'll know.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

But I would love to see you take this job. And until you start raking in big bucks, drive for Uber at night, get up early and do. I don't know. I was gonna say do a paper route, but those don't exist anymore. I don't know what else you could do. But here's the thing. I want you to begin to feel some skin in the game. Because right now you feel like a loser.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And you're not. You're just another student of. Of which there are millions who did what everyone said. You have to go to this private school so you can get into this medical school. And. And then suddenly your heart was. Was pointed in a different direction and you dug yourself such a hole. Now you think you're such a loser. You came to ministry because you can't afford to.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

You don't even think that you're worth marrying. It's nonsense. Right?

[Grace]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Will you do a homework assignment for me?

[Grace]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Will you write 18 year old you a letter? No. Listen, I'm being serious.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Write a forgiveness letter to 18 year old you. You know who does stupid stuff when they're 18? Every single 18 year old who's ever existed. They don't all do $200,000 worth of stupid. Right. But we all would love to have things back from when we were 18. And you've got to stop carrying that crap around, especially into a new marriage to a man who's like, I want all of you, including the $200,000 in debt.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

But you got to let yourself go get married. You got to let yourself go be a great salesperson. Right? So you can be the saleswoman of the year. Go get it.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

The richest irony is that your name is Grace and you have none for yourself.

[John Deloney]

Mine is John, which is a toilet. So everyone can see that one pretty clear.

[George Camel]

So, Grace, there's two parts of this one. There's the emotional Healing that John's talking about. And then number two is the tactical. I gotta work my butt off doing three side hustles. And guess what? You guys are gonna get married. It's gonna get paid off. If it's two years or four years, whatever it takes, it's going to happen. And so I think right now it feels like it's never going to happen. Therefore, I need a shortcut. And there's option C that we forgot about.

[John Deloney]

Oh, and brass tacks here. If you file for bankruptcy, you can clear the 15,000.

[George Camel]

That's it.

[John Deloney]

Student loans are not dischargeable by bankruptcy. So whoever's telling you to declare bankruptcy.

[George Camel]

They haven't done a Google search.

[John Deloney]

I won't cash. Yeah, yeah, exactly. They haven't Googled. Right. Yeah.

[Grace]

It's a lawyer, so that's scary.

[John Deloney]

Well, yikes. There we go.

[George Camel]

Well, they probably want your money as if they're a bankruptcy lawyer. They're like, I'll take the money even if it doesn't help you.

[John Deloney]

Exactly.

[George Camel]

Oh, Grace, I'm so. So you're.

[John Deloney]

You're in on this? Grace, are you ready to rock and roll?

[Grace]

I am. And I feel empowered. So thank you.

[John Deloney]

All right, here's the deal. Your marriage gift. George and I are going to hook you up with Financial Peace University. I want you to watch the digital lessons. It's nine lessons. You and your fiance watch them together. I don't want you to look at him and hold his hand and say, I'm so glad that you picked me. And I'm. You better be really glad that I picked you. And we're going to ride or die together. Second thing we're going to send you is the Every Dollar app. You got to start practicing budgeting. And it's again, it's going to give you some skin in the game so you don't feel lost. Okay? And the next time you are looking for a hack and somebody has googled something and they're like, oh, you should just holler back, girl, at us. I know you ain't no holler back, girl, but just holler at us and. And we will give you the next right step. This is the Ramsey Show. 888-825-5225. We'll be right back.

[Dave Ramsey]

Statistics show that half of Americans don't have enough life insurance or they don't have any at all. I don't understand this, John. Why don't people want to take care of their family? They think they're not going to die or something.

[John Deloney]

Well, I used to be one of those guys, I didn't even think about it. And one of my buddies said, hey, the not have life insurance is if you hate your wife and kids. And I immediately went and got term life insurance.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's a gut punch.

[John Deloney]

For decades, Dave, I've sat across people who've lost a spouse, they've lost somebody important to them.

[Dave Ramsey]

Me too.

[John Deloney]

They don't know what to do next.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're going to have a crisis here. You know, you got two options. While you're sitting and talking to a young widow, she's concerned about how she's going to invest all this money properly and not mess this up, or she's concerned how she's going to eat tomorrow.

[John Deloney]

That's exactly.

[Dave Ramsey]

These are the two options. It's saying I love you to your family. Term life insurance, Jeff Zander and the team at Zander Insurance makes it easy, affordable. I've used them personally for 25 years. They're the only people I trust. Go to Zander.com or call 800-356-4282.

[John Deloney]

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm John Deloney, sitting next to the one and only George R. Campbell. What is your middle name?

[George Camel]

Not true. Starts with a P. And I'll never tell Reddit.

[John Deloney]

If you guess it, I want to hear your best of guesses.

[George Camel]

I'm sure it's Googleable. I'd like the mystique. You know, as public figures, we got to have a little mystique. John, I regret that entire sentence.

[John Deloney]

I don't have any mystique, do I? No, no, I don't think. I think I'm kind of mystique free.

[George Camel]

Well, you are a private guy. I mean, you're big on privacy. You know, you want to live out in the woods, no one can find you all that.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, there is that, but it's not really a mystique. It's just I don't know how I.

[George Camel]

Was on social media at seven years old, John. I was ready.

[John Deloney]

Explain.

[George Camel]

I was in the AOL chat room.

[John Deloney]

Baby, and depressed before anyone else was anxious and depressed. Let's go out to Boston and talk to Anthony. What's up, Anthony?

[George Camel]

Hello? Can you hear me?

[Grace]

All right.

[John Deloney]

And we got you, brother. What's up? Great. So I graduated undergraduate about four years ago and I've been working in consulting ever since.

[George Camel]

And I've just been treating Bitcoin as like a savings account, just kind of dollar cost averaging into it for decent.

[John Deloney]

Amount of time now.

[George Camel]

And I'm contemplating if I should pull.

[John Deloney]

Out and reconsider long term savings strategy or continue down this road. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

[George Camel]

Are you talking about all of your money? Do you have an actual savings account? Do you have money in the bank? No, I don't have a savings account.

[John Deloney]

But I have like a 401k. But this is like the majority of my savings.

[George Camel]

Do you have any debt? I have about 70,000 in student loans, federal and state combined. How much do you have in bitcoin?

[John Deloney]

Probably over 200,000. Can we just salute you? Most people are kind of bitcoin light and you're all in. And I like, I gotta tip my hat because there's like people who play around on the edges.

[George Camel]

Anthony's not full.

[John Deloney]

You went full bonkers.

[George Camel]

Does your social media profile include the word bitcoin? No. Okay. You're not hiding. I just want to know bitcoin bro, how far on the spectrum you are. Okay.

[John Deloney]

Bitcoin bro. 27. That would be awesome.

[George Camel]

Anthony, you've done really well. And the truth is when you put your money into any single item, a single stock, a single cryptocurrency, you're putting yourself at risk. And it may not feel that way because for the last, you know, the bitcoin Bros. Will tell you it's just been going to the moon forever. We don't know what the future holds. We just saw, I mean, chatgpt this week. China comes out with deep seek and all of a sudden it tanks the stock market because everyone's freaking out. And so all it takes is one thing to happen in the news or everyone starting to dump their crypto for you to lose big. And so I would, if this was, if you were in a, in Vegas right now, I'd be like, dude, cash out and go home. And so that's what I'm telling you to do. Cash out, pay off your debt, get an actual emergency fund in place, and then you can still invest. You know, I can't call it investing. You can still speculate in crypto and put some money there, but I wouldn't do it until after you've taken some prerequisite steps, which is pay off your debt, get an emergency fund in place and liquid cash in a high yield savings account. Then begin investing 15% of your income into retirement accounts. Then any money beyond that, some fun money, you can put it into bitcoin.

[John Deloney]

And here's the deal, at the end.

[George Camel]

Of the day, don't think you're going to do that. I'm just telling you I'm Going to sleep well at night knowing I told you that.

[John Deloney]

If. If you were to ask me and George, who are both husbands or both fathers, this is what we would do with our money. So it's not just like Instagram, back of the, like, Instagram reel? Like, yeah, bro. Two things I want you to think through when you talk about guys who own real hard assets, like, who are wealthy with tangible things. I'm thinking of Warren Buffett. I'm thinking of Dave Ramsey. Thinking of guys like that, they invest in things they can touch and feel. And I have no doubt in my mind, like, I basically live in a. I want to say Bitcoin, but I have a digital currency. Anyway. Dave Ramsey doesn't hand me cash every month. It deposits in a series of ones and zeros into my account, Right? And then I move that into this account into retirement. So we basically have a digital currency. It won't surprise me if this technology is used at some point. It also wouldn't surprise me if tomorrow some AI kid in St. Louis with a laptop figures out how to decode and spread bitcoin out everywhere using AI. It won't surprise. Like, so it's so such an insanely risky gamble to hold two or three or four years of your life worth of money, especially when you're leveraged $70,000 into the government. Do you get that? And so it just sounds bonkers to me on the other side of this thing, if you told me, hey, I've got a house that I own that's mine, that no one can ever take from me. I've paid it off. I don't owe anybody anything, especially the government. Want to put some money over here and see what happens with it? I'll. I'll shake your hand. High five you. I do that. Just not with bitcoin, with other stuff. So I'm totally. I'm totally game on that. But tell me what your resistance is, because I can hear it. You're not buying it? I don't know. I think it's kind of like, if.

[George Camel]

It'S not broke, don't fix it. I understand.

[Anthony]

Like, it's definitely volatile.

[John Deloney]

And I've experienced a lot of psychological.

[Anthony]

What's the word?

[John Deloney]

Ups and downs. Psychosis. Yeah, exactly.

[George Camel]

Yeah, psychosis. But I think, like, the last four.

[John Deloney]

Years, all I've done is dollar cost.

[George Camel]

Average, and effectively outperformed every hedge fund on planet Earth. So it's like, I don't. I see what you're saying. Like, I guess having all your eggs in one basket sort of argument. But you were zoomed into a very particular spot in history and I'm trying to help you zoom out and look at the big picture and go, it may continue to go up. Or like we saw in 2022, Bitcoin took a 50% hit. Even the housing crash of 2008 didn't take a 50% hit in the stock market. And so it's way more volatile than the traditional stock market. You can handle that risk right now as a young single guy, but we're telling you as married guys who have seen a thing or two that it's not a good long term play.

[John Deloney]

And here's the other thing. Go Google and you can dig into the research or I'm sure you, you're a tech guy, so you've probably got more sophisticated problem solving software than I have. Everybody thinks they can beat the market until they can't. And everybody thinks they've figured out the magic serum, the Harry Potter wand that nobody else has that trillion dollar hedge fund managers don't have access to. But I figured it out in my basement, I've got it. And, and till they don't. And so if you by yourself in your room have figured out this thing, you're the one guy who's kept this thing afloat for four years. Awesome. You said it best. I think, and George and I have talked about this on air. I think in moving into the future, as everything is being leveraged, it's going to be disrupted and everything's going to look different in five years and robots are going to be mowing or long, whatever's going on. I think the, the wealth of the next hundred years is going to be peace is how can I get off this insane roller coaster that I've put every egg in the basket, every single one. So that's George and I telling you, solve for peace. You have been on the roulette wheel for four years and you haven't fallen off. Your moment will come. And George and I are just saying, man, there's the wisdom is knowing when to leave the table and go buy breakfast for your friends in Vegas and then put the rest of the money in your pocket.

[George Camel]

Especially when you're sitting on all these student loans, which tells me if you had the money to pay for your student loans, most people go, yeah, I'd love to pay them off. But you said, nope, I'm gonna hold. Because of really what it is at the end of the day is it's agreed there's a level of pride and greed that goes Nah, I'm gonna keep riding.

[John Deloney]

Well, it's arrogance. I'm better than the system. And if you want to think, if you want to use a Vegas analogy, you went and pulled $70,000 out of an ATM machine. I mean, off a credit card. Except the credit card is the government who can garnish your wages, take your stuff, and you went and put that money on a roulette wheel. That's what you've been playing. And congratulations, bro, you made it.

[George Camel]

I have too much anxiety for these 247 cryptos. I mean, you could pull up at 3am and it's going up, down, up, down, up, down. Okay, now it's here, now it's.

[John Deloney]

Well, some people. I even will go with you. I mean, cocaine and meth is an issue, right? People use drugs and they like the ride. I even get that. It's. There's just a moment beneath it. I made it sound like I do coke and meth. I don't. I, I understand it intellectually, but at least have enough wisdom to. What, what they don't tell you on, on Instagram is the. The big players have a house. The big players are not leveraged a hundred percent. And you get these young 21, 22, 23 year olds who get out of college, they put everything into these assets and they think they're playing the same game these bigger guys are playing. These wealthy multi millionaires. Billionaires are playing. They're not the billionaires. Long tails are covered. They've got their housing taken care of, they've got their insurance, they've got life insurance covered. And then they go play with big sums of money. And so you think you're playing in the major leagues, you're not. You're playing right into their hand. And at some point they're going to take your money off the table.

[George Camel]

So got to build the foundation.

[John Deloney]

Build a foundation, man. And at least pay your debts to the government. For crying out loud, brother, this is the Ramsey Show. We'll be right back. Foreign.

[George Camel]

Hey guys, this is Jade Warshaw. Listen, I get it. The student loan situation is bananas. But it's time to make progress, not excuses. So if your payment and interest rate have you treading water, refinancing could be the solution for you. Look, if I were in your shoes, I would contact Laurel Road today and get a free 30 minute consultation. You'll work with a student loan expert and you'll go over your refinancing options. Hey, for refinancing, to make sense, you've got to check certain boxes like making a good income and bottom line. Ramsey's advice is that you only refinance if you can get a lower rate or a shorter term. Remember, the point is to pay off debt faster. Maybe you just need to keep rocking the debt snowball. But if refinancing does make sense for you, Laurel Road offers low competitive rates and interest rate discounts are available for stuff like autopay. Listen, you can't mess around with student loans. If you want them gone, you got to go hard. So go to LaurelRoad.com Ramsey to find out more and schedule your free 30 minute consultation. That's LaurelRoad.com Ramsey. Laurel Road is a brand of KeyBank National Association.

[John Deloney]

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show, Triple 882-55225. If you were born in the 19th or the 20th century, I guess 1900s, that's a toll free call. You're born in the 2000s. You don't even know what that means. It just means you can call from anywhere, anytime. 888-825-5225. John DeLoney joined with George Camel. Listen, if you just listen to that last call, talking about putting all my savings in bitcoin and I'm smarter than hedge fund managers and I've got it figured out. I know I've got $70,000 in student loans, but I've got, I've got this thing figured out. There's so much nonsense about investing how to do it, what to do. And the one thing that we don't often do, George, is we don't often put down TikTok and put down the blogs and put down Reddit and actually ask, ask people who are very wealthy, what is your playbook? Will you just show me, please? Like don't just tell me. Like, here's what I think and here's what's going to happen. What are you doing in your house to keep you and your family safe and your legacy secure. So here at Ramsey Solutions we have an amazing two night virtual event so you can watch us from your house. To get real questions, Dave Ramsey opens up his portfolio and says, this is how I have built what I have built. Dave Ramsey, George Camel. It's called an investing essentials. It's over. It can be overwhelming, it can be confusing. And here's what we're going to do here. George and Dave, not me because you guys are way smarter than me.

[George Camel]

Love for you to be there. I would use a studio audience. John, we could.

[John Deloney]

The last time I heard Dave talking about this stuff, I was like, oh, you're goodwill hunting. Like, it's just. He's beautiful mind.

[George Camel]

This is stuff. He'll go, well, we've heard all of it on the show.

[John Deloney]

No, not this stuff.

[George Camel]

This guy's pulling out formulas that I think even mathematicians are astounded by.

[John Deloney]

But here's the thing. People think Dave over the years is just, he plays hillbilly on the radio. And I'll tell you what, I'm a simple man. Dave is a savant.

[George Camel]

He'll run the service when it comes.

[John Deloney]

To algorithms and why he does what he does when it comes to his.

[George Camel]

Money, especially real estate.

[John Deloney]

Exactly.

[George Camel]

So night two, we're focusing on real estate, real estate investing, buying investment property. And Dave pulls up real properties that he owns, showing you exactly exact calculations of how he gets their, you know, cash on cash returns. And there's a pods, John, it's.

[John Deloney]

And listen. Amazing the number of calls we take from people who are scrolling tick tock and went and immediately got married and bought a duplex. And they're gonna live in one half and they're gonna rent out the other half.

[George Camel]

We live in the bathroom. We rent out the other four bedrooms.

[John Deloney]

That's right. And then we're gonna stack cash on cash on cash. Listen, Dave's going to open up his playbook. Dave and George are going to walk through step by step, how they do it so you can get clarity and you can get this, like just the playbook on how you can invest with confidence and Start Building Wealth. March 4th and 5th. It's virtual. You can watch it on your iPhone. You can watch on your laptop. If you're a crypto, bro, you can watch it on those two big curvy screens that you watch your whole life go by on. And tickets are 199 bucks we charge for this one because the return on this thing could be amazing. Get your, get your, your, your. I guess you reserve your spot, but there's not really spots. It's virtual, right, George?

[George Camel]

It's a virtual ticket.

[John Deloney]

Go to ramseysolutions.com events or you can click the link in the show notes. If you're tuning in on podcast or YouTube, go check it out. I would, except I have one of the highest privileges in the world, which is I just text you on Saturday morning. I'm like, hey, George, should I move my money to this? To this? And you go, yes.

[George Camel]

You have the pleasure of sitting next to Dave. And on a break, you're like, hey, Dave, can you tell me about this? And he just goes, he's like, yeah.

[John Deloney]

Just do it like this and this and this.

[George Camel]

My favorite is that Dave says, ah, who's going to care about this? They don't want to go that deep. And then people are like, please, we want to go deeper. Tell us more.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, exactly.

[George Camel]

So Dave, Dave calls it nerdville because it really is. We kind of nerd out. We obviously cover the basics. We're going to tell you how to invest, how to pick mutual funds, retirement plans. We cover all that. But then we go deeper into what about beyond that? What's beyond the baby steps.

[John Deloney]

That's right. And it's the question that when you're scrolling TikTok, they don't give you the, the reasoning or the math behind it. They just give you some 60 seconds of excitement, some proclamation they got off somebody else's TikTok account. So Ramsey solutions.com events or click the link in the show notes. So it's a Sacramento, California and talk to Braden. What's up, Braden?

[George Camel]

How you doing?

[John Deloney]

Like, man, I could not be doing better, brother. How are you?

[George Camel]

I'm kind of in a pickle.

[John Deloney]

We got you. We got you. George loves.

[George Camel]

I specialize in brine cucumbers.

[John Deloney]

Yes, do this. That was a deep pickle reference, George.

[George Camel]

People don't know, John. This is me educating them.

[John Deloney]

That was fantastic. Brined cucumbers. Alright, so what's up, Braden?

[George Camel]

Okay, so I finished my first baby step. I have about a thousand or twelve hundred bucks sitting at home. But I got a $15,000 loan out on my truck and I work a lot under the table, so I don't have income and I had to have my grandfather sign on to my loan.

[John Deloney]

Wait, wait, pause there. What do you sell drugs?

[George Camel]

No, no, I work. I work for a lot of farm properties. I make about 4,000amonth.

[John Deloney]

Just cash.

[George Camel]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[John Deloney]

You know the government listens to this show too, right? I'm totally playing with you. They don't. Yeah, see, they just, they just scrambled your signal there. They're on to you now, Braden. All right, all right. So you, you make 4,000 bucks a month in cash.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

So he signed onto my loan and I just got news that they are pretty heavy in credit card debt and they need to take out a secondary mortgage on their house because they both are disabled and can't pay for it. But they can't take it out because they're stuck on my loan for my car. So I kind of already know the answer. I just need clarification. Do I just sell the truck that's the answer.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, probably going to hurt. How are you going to get to work?

[George Camel]

I got it for three grand under, or about seven grand under market value. And I paid nine into it. So I have about 14,000 I can get out of it just to get something else. But I just kind of needed that clarification from that.

[John Deloney]

Sell it right now. Yeah.

[George Camel]

How much could you sell it for? Got it for 20. I can get it for 27. And I. Like I said, I only owe 15 on it. So you can sell it for 27,000 today?

[John Deloney]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Do it right now. And then go get yourself a $9,000 truck and never borrow money from your granddad again. Never put a family member in that kind of position again.

[George Camel]

And here's how you go car shopping. From now on, you have 9,000. That's your new car budget. Not 10, not 12. Because the salesman was like, oh, well, you could upgrade to this model if you just put it. The one you can afford in cash is the one you drive right now. And then with more savings, you're gonna be able to save up with no debt to upgrade that over time to where it's not crushing your life and hurting your relationships.

[John Deloney]

How old are you, brother?

[George Camel]

I'm 19.

[John Deloney]

Okay, you don't know this yet, but I'm gonna tell you a secret. If you go to do work for a 45 year old on his farm and you roll in there in an 88 truck and it's got some character to it and some patina and it's got some dents in it, they're gonna look at you with more respect than if you roll in there with a 20, 25 car that cost $120,000. Because they're gonna know, oh, you may be good with tools or throwing hay or whatever you do, but you do not know how to handle money.

[Anthony]

Okay?

[John Deloney]

You don't know that yet because you're 19. And I totally get that. But, brother, dude, if you just go get a truck you can afford that's going to run and run and run and run that you can actually work on yourself now, George, these trucks are like. They're like mobile iPhones.

[George Camel]

There's some mobile homes at this point. Some people have to live in them, John. Because the payment is more than rent.

[John Deloney]

$120,000.

[George Camel]

It's insane.

[John Deloney]

All right, let's go out to Newark, New Jersey and talk to Lucas. Hey, Lucas, what's up?

[Grace]

How you doing?

[John Deloney]

It's an honor to speak to you guys. I really appreciate you guys taking my Call you got. Hey, we're right up against the clock, so you got just about a minute and a half. Get right to your question for me.

[Anthony]

Perfect. I'm 24.

[Grace]

I live with my mom. I make around 135.

[John Deloney]

I want to make sure that I'm.

[Grace]

Ready to step out my mom's house.

[John Deloney]

And if I am ready, do I.

[Grace]

Buy a house or do I, you.

[Anthony]

Know, first rent to get that experience.

[John Deloney]

Go get yourself an apartment this afternoon and be moved out by this weekend.

[George Camel]

What makes you think you're not ready?

[Anthony]

To be honest with you, just taking that next step.

[John Deloney]

Make $130,000. You've taken the step.

[George Camel]

Are you in crippling debt?

[John Deloney]

Not at all. I have zero debt.

[George Camel]

Oh, my goodness. Dude, you're making more than double the average income.

[John Deloney]

When's the last time you went on a date?

[Anthony]

Actually, I have a girlfriend, so.

[John Deloney]

Well, she needs to call into the show because she should not be dating somebody who makes 130 grand, lives with his mom.

[George Camel]

Okay, say thank you, mom. I'm ready to fly the coop. Yes, I want to be an eagle. Because as Dave says, if you stay, you become a turkey. If you never leave the eagles nest.

[John Deloney]

Well, I kind of like that. So here's the deal. I want you to go get an apartment this weekend. And by the way, you can get a nice apartment. Don't get a dive. Get something that's actually pretty cool. You make 130 grand, congratulations.

[George Camel]

Less than 25% of take home pay. That's. That's the angle.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. Not something stupid, but something cool. And then I want you to wrap up the key. Actually, don't do that. Wrap up a copy of the lease and give that to your mom as a gift this weekend and take her to a really nice restaurant and say, thanks for letting me crash at your house. I'm ready to go be a big boy now. Thank you for raising me. Bye, Felicia. This is the Ramsey Show. This show is sponsored by Better Help. Hey, everyone, listen. We all have stories. The family and cultural stories that we were born into. The stories of the things that have happened to us. Both the good stuff and the challenging stuff. And we have those stories that we constantly tell ourselves. And none of us can go back and change any of our old stories. But the world is waiting to see what each of us is going to write next. As we enter 2025, I encourage you to examine your old stories and be intentional about the new stories that you're going to write. And I'm not talking about making goals that are going to be long gone by February. I'm talking about writing new stories that will change your life and the lives of those you love for the better forever. If you're like me, therapy can be a great place to explore the old stories and heal from them and begin writing new ones. If you're thinking about starting therapy, I want you to consider my friends at Better Help. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy and you can talk with your therapist when it works for your schedule. You just fill out a short online survey to get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch at any time for no extra cost. So start writing a new story this month with better help. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E-L-P.com DeLoney welcome back to the Ramsey Show, 888-255-225. I'm John DeLoney, joined by the one and only George P. Camel. Let's go out to Chattanooga and talk to Beth. What is. Where are you? Beth, There you are. What's up? Beth?

[Grace]

Hi.

[John Deloney]

How are we doing?

[Grace]

Oh, I'm great. Better than I deserve.

[John Deloney]

Outstanding. Exactly. We're the exact same. We're better than we deserve too. How can I help?

[Grace]

Okay, my question is about MPI insurance and do you think it would be worth it to get that if you purchasing a new home?

[George Camel]

Are you talking about mortgage insurance?

[Grace]

No, not life insurance. It's Morgan Mortgage Protection.

[George Camel]

Oh, got it. Okay.

[Grace]

Yeah. We are actually looking to buy a new home and I've had several people tell me about that. So I was wondering your thoughts if it's worth it or not.

[George Camel]

No, it's not something that we recommend. Why are you. Did you hear that? You need it from someone else?

[Grace]

No. Well, yeah, kind of. My husband is self employed and I'm kind of concerned because he had a heart attack a couple years ago and also he has problems with his back. So if he becomes disabled, I want to be able to know that I'm not going to be living on the street.

[George Camel]

Yeah, well, the only time we'd recommend something like that is if you don't qualify for term life insurance.

[Grace]

Okay. I do have term life insurance on him. We got it through Zender.

[George Camel]

Great. How much do you have in the policy?

[Grace]

300.

[George Camel]

Okay. And what's his income?

[Grace]

300,000. About 300,000 a year.

[George Camel]

Okay, so we'd recommend he makes 300,000 a year gross.

[Grace]

Yes.

[George Camel]

Wow.

[John Deloney]

Beth, what is this? I'm afraid I'm gonna be on the streets Song a dance you're telling yourself?

[George Camel]

My brain couldn't even fathom when you said, he makes three. I was like, oh, gosh.

[John Deloney]

How much money do y'all have in retirement savings?

[Grace]

Probably about 75 right now. I'm a little bit behind on that. I got a late start.

[George Camel]

You have 75,000 in retirement?

[Grace]

Probably close to that.

[John Deloney]

How old are you?

[Grace]

I'm 62.

[John Deloney]

And why are you guys buying a new house right now?

[Grace]

We just want a different location.

[John Deloney]

Can you afford a different location? Can you afford a new house right now?

[Grace]

Yes.

[George Camel]

Do you guys have any debt?

[Grace]

Yes, we do. We have probably about 120,000 in debt right now, but part of that will be paid off. It's mainly business loans.

[George Camel]

Okay, so I'm confused where this $300,000 is going because it's not going to retirement. It's not going to cash flow because you're going to debt. So where is 300 grand disappearing into?

[Grace]

I'm not sure. I feel like. I don't know. I mean, I do try to do a budget and stay on a budget, and I do do the snowball and.

[John Deloney]

You know, Beth, do you do this or do y'all.

[Grace]

We do have. No, mainly I do this.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Grace]

We're working on the y'all part. We do have contract labor that we do pay out every year, too. So that takes up a lot of that. 300? Well, yeah, not a lot of it, but part of it.

[John Deloney]

Here's what I. I'm hearing, and I want you just to please trust me on this one. Me and George on this?

[Grace]

Yes. Yes. That's why I called.

[John Deloney]

Okay. So number one, don't buy a house yet.

[Grace]

Okay?

[John Deloney]

You've got some gaps in your marriage, and y'all are hoping a new location is going to fix it. It's not going to bring you the safety that you think it's going to. In fact, I'm going to tell you right now, based on your financial situation and just the ambiguity in your around your financial situation, it's going to make it worse. You and your husband need to sit down and have a come to Jesus. Bear our souls, everybody being honest. I'm going to pull credit reports on both of us. Where are we?

[Grace]

Yes.

[John Deloney]

Because I don't think you can breathe at night because you don't know where the money is. And he keeps telling you, we make. I make $300,000. A, you don't know. You've never seen it. B, you don't really know how much money how much debt he's holding. Business wise, you kind of know some of it. And it could be 70 or 80% of that. 300,000 is labor cost. And so he could be making 300 grand and be completely broke.

[Grace]

He could be.

[John Deloney]

And if he's using your family credit cards to buy. To buy stuff for the business, you guys got a mess on your hands.

[Grace]

No credit cards.

[John Deloney]

Well, bank loans, whatever. If he's taking personal loans out for this business, you might have yourself a big old mess. So here's what I do. Before I did any kind of house purchasing, I would say we're going to have a sit down conversation about the realities of our financial situation. With 75,000 bucks in the bank, a very unknowable. I don't even know where we are. We owe $120,000. Maybe the business does, maybe we do. Or maybe it's. It's a business loan that we secured with our personal. Like you might have a message. You're not in a financial position to move, quote unquote, just because we want to. You're just not. You don't have that kind of money. Okay, Now.

[Grace]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

He may sit down and clarify all this. And it may be a really scary, hard conversation. If I were you, I would start with the words, as your wife, I'm really scared right now.

[Grace]

All right?

[John Deloney]

And I just want to see it. Does any of this ring true to you or am I out to lunch?

[Grace]

Part of it might ring true, and part of it, you're out to lunch. To be honest.

[John Deloney]

That's good. I like going to lunch Sometimes I want to chick fil a today. It was fantastic.

[Grace]

They are. I kind of. I pretty much know what's going through the business because I kind of. Basically, I do the book.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Grace]

So, you know, I. I don't. I don't think he's hiding anything from me at all.

[John Deloney]

Well, less about hiding it and more of it just kind of like George said, it just kind of. It just runs through like a net. Water through a net. It just goes.

[Grace]

Okay. Yeah. Okay, gotcha.

[John Deloney]

What do you pay yourselves? Each. Each. Each. Yeah. I don't think he's being deceptive. I believe you that he's.

[George Camel]

I think you guys are aligned in knowledge, but we're not aligned on a plan.

[John Deloney]

That's right. How much does he pay himself every year out of this business?

[Grace]

I agree. Not much. He just pays himself when he can. So that's one thing I'm working to do, is to start paying ourselves first because it's Been just paying. Paying bills first.

[John Deloney]

Okay, so when I ask you how much you all make and you say.

[George Camel]

300,000, that's business revenue. That's not your actual income.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, that's not income.

[George Camel]

No, because you said you have expenses. There's people you're paying. So you guys need to sit down and figure out what is our income going to be for 20, 25, and if it's $200,000, we need to be throwing the majority of that at our debt. We got to cover the bills, the four walls, food, utilities, housing, transportation. But beyond that, we're not going to let this money disappear because we've been doing that for four decades now, and we're going to have to retire one day.

[John Deloney]

What was your revenue last year that you reported with the irs?

[Grace]

I can't remember. I think between his and mine, it was like a hundred and one hundred and eighty.

[George Camel]

I think that makes more sense. So that would be your gross income for the year, meaning you're probably taking.

[Grace]

Home for last year.

[George Camel]

Closer to 120,000. So 10 grand a month, take home pay.

[John Deloney]

You know that money's going if you only got 75 grand in retirement, right? So here's it. Just sit down and have a Where's our money going? We make two. If you're making 180 grand over the course of a year, y'all combined, you'll make way too much money for you to, to have $75,000 heading into the last, the fourth quarter of your life. Right? George, how often do you hear when you sit down with people, how often do you hear, we just want to do this thing? And you look at their situations like, hey, y'all can't do that thing. You know what I mean?

[George Camel]

It's heartbreaking, especially when you get into your 60s and you're going, hey, we'd like to retire next year. And I go, the math says you can't. I'm the bearer of bad news now because I broke your heart. But it's not a decision you get to make. The math does that for you. Otherwise you're going to just carry debt until you die of stress and anxiety. And so in a situation like this, they can clean it up, but they need to be aligned on the plan of, all right, we got to throw five grand a month of this debt. That's 60 grand a year. We'll be done with the 120 in two years. Then we can start tackling the mortgage, Then we can retire.

[John Deloney]

And by the way, all the questions I just asked Beth to ask her husband, sit down and get answered. A bank is going to ask you the exact same questions before they write you a check for a mortgage. So you're going to have to answer these questions anyway. It's best that y'all do it together behind closed doors and unite and then go, go attack any of your financial goals moving forward. That's hour one of the Ramsey show in the books. We'll be right back. 888-255-2225. I'm John DeLoney joined with George Camel. Hang on. We'll be right back. Live from Nashville, Tennessee, I'm John Deloney joined by my good friend, my friend, George Camel. And this is the Ramsay show where we talk with real people going through real challenges with their money, their work, their relationships, their mental and emotional health, building wealth, all of it. You call in, we've got an opinion and an idea or 288-825-5225. That's triple 882-55225. We have an amazing call screener Christian, waiting for your call. Our board is completely lit up. George, let's go out to Salt Lake City, Utah and talk to Kathleen. Hey, Kathleen. What's up?

[Grace]

Hi, Kath. Hi.

[John Deloney]

You're Kathleen. I'm John.

[Grace]

Yes.

[John Deloney]

What's up, John? What's up?

[Grace]

It's a good day.

[John Deloney]

Yes, ma'am. How can I help?

[Grace]

So my husband, my ex husband has not been able to hold down a job due to his health and he has not paid alimony or child support in five months. His only assets are his 401k and a little bit of the equity in the house that I got in the divorce that he gets. He gets that equity when I refinance, when I finish school. So I'm wondering if it's fair to ask him to cash out some of his 401k to pay his responsibility. I know there's huge punishments, but he's working on disability and that can take a long time. But he's got no other assets to feed his kids.

[John Deloney]

Sh. What a mess. Because, I mean, at the end of the day, it's gonna, it's gonna fall on his kids on the back end, right?

[Grace]

Yeah. Right. Like I'd rather he, you know, keep his kids alive now than. I don't know.

[John Deloney]

Well, I mean, no, but they're, they're gonna be propping him up right now. Are they gonna be propping him up in the, I mean, in the future? If he cashes it out, then he's going to be calling them when he's old and can't work.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

So let me ask about your situation. Are you unable to. To support them right now without his check?

[Grace]

I'm getting financial support from my family. I'm going through school. I've still got years to go before I can have any training that can pay anything more than fast food.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[George Camel]

I feel like fair is that, that word is stuck with me. I'm like, is it fair?

[John Deloney]

It's the wrong answer. It's the wrong question.

[George Camel]

It's more like what is necessary to keep the roof over our heads and keep the kids fed and keep the basics here. I wouldn't use it as a punishment, and I don't think you are. You sound like a lovely person.

[John Deloney]

Is he for real hurt or is he trying to end around not having to pay?

[Grace]

No, no, I believe it's genuine. He can't work.

[John Deloney]

Okay, so let's take the alimony piece off because that's, that's, that's a third rail right now. Let's. Let's pretend y'all are still married. And I know that's a big stretch. Okay. Your husband who's working in your home gets hurt and he can't make any more money. Y'all have to have some hard conversations about the house you live in. And you think I'm not going to disrupt the kids lives? The kids lives are already really disrupted. I need to go to school right this minute so that I can finally get a degree, so I can finally get to earning some real money so I can take care of everybody long term. That makes sense. Unless you can't afford to do it right this second.

[Grace]

So our housing that we refinanced, this house when it was at the bottom of the interest. My interest rate is 2.6. My mortgage is $1,000.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Grace]

I can't rent a studio apartment in Utah for under $1,000.

[John Deloney]

I got you. I get it.

[Grace]

Financial sense means that the kids and I stay here. If I was still married to him, we would keep this house. If we were still married, I would ask him to petition some kind of hardship to get into his 401k. His parents are paying his rent, I guess. My parents are. My parents are paying my mortgage.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean, you can, you can contact your attorney and you can say, hey, I want him to forego his, his stake in the equity of this house that didn't put cash in your pocket.

[Grace]

He needs to do a bankruptcy because of his, his credit card debt since the divorce. And so he's threatening that he needs a bankruptcy. And I'm worried that this is an asset on his. In his name.

[John Deloney]

I'm gonna be honest with you. I think you're grasping at straws here. Okay, You. He owes you money. The bank says he does. Morally, he owes you money. He doesn't have any. How much is in this mystical 401 that you. That you think he can give you?

[Grace]

He has $250,000 in it.

[John Deloney]

And how old is he?

[Grace]

He's 42 years old.

[John Deloney]

And he's done working. Is he gonna have to. He's gonna have to fight with disability forever?

[Grace]

He's gonna have to fight to get on disability. He hopes that he can rejoin the workforce someday, but based on his last 10 years of. Of health, I don't see how it's possible he's hit an early dementia.

[John Deloney]

Okay. So, I mean, that's the question I'll ask you. I mean, I guess you can. What's he going to do besides call your kids and ask for money?

[Grace]

I just feel like I'm asking my family for help to take care of his children.

[John Deloney]

They're your children too, though.

[Grace]

Yeah, no, they are. And I have a plan. I'm getting through school as quickly as I can. I'm selling my blood money.

[John Deloney]

No, I mean, I know everybody's working hard. I think there's just a global situation here, which is the guy's hurt, he can't work, and we don't like him. We're mad at him. He blew up our life, all those things. Fill in the blank. The divorce and all that. He didn't have it, but, I mean.

[Grace]

Doesn'T he have it? Can't he get into that 401k? Isn't it better to use it now, then when.

[John Deloney]

Then when. When he's 65 and he has zero nothing?

[Grace]

I don't see him living till he's.

[George Camel]

65. Who's the beneficiary on the 401k?

[Grace]

I don't know if he switched it over to his new wife and his kids, but I have a life insurance on him that I kept from our marriage.

[George Camel]

Okay. What's the policy value?

[Grace]

His is 500,000.

[George Camel]

And you're the beneficiary?

[Grace]

I am.

[John Deloney]

Okay, here's the deal. I don't know enough to know Utah law. I would go sit down with somebody and even see if you even have a claim to it. I don't even know if you have a claim to it.

[George Camel]

My gut says if you, the attorney, the courts, they're going to say, hey, this is a last ditch thing that we would need to approve in order to garnish his retirement to make this happen. They're going to explore every other option and they may end up where you are going. This is all this guy has and here's how much we're going to garnish to make this work. But he's broke. And so we can't just rob his entire retirement and just give it to you. They might have a different option.

[John Deloney]

So we have a guy who's very unhealthy, has been. He's got early onset dementia. He's got an. He's unable to work. He's trying to piece together Social Security and piece together disability and maybe you can find a judge that will force him to cash out part of his 401 and take the 35 or 40% penalty, whatever he's going to have to pay and give you the other piece of it.

[Grace]

Is it fair if I, because my sister's supporting me and I'd like to pay her back someday. Is it fair to say, hey, if you forego the equity that I owe you, then you can not pay me the child support.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. That if I'm you, that's the best.

[George Camel]

Solution based on what you've told us. And I think if you went to the courts and an attorney, they'd probably tell you something similar is. Let's explore that before we garnish his retirement.

[John Deloney]

But that doesn't put cash in your pocket.

[Grace]

No, but I mean, my sister, she can, she can float me, but not forever.

[George Camel]

I think we need to figure out how to make Kathleen's life sustainable without the outside help. And that might take some sacrifice in the short term.

[John Deloney]

You might need to pause going to school. What are you, what are you going to school for?

[Grace]

I'm going for radiology technology.

[John Deloney]

Okay. It, it may be that you can't afford to do that right now and you have to go work three or four jobs and it's an awful economic trap that single moms find themselves in. And I know that sounds like two steps back and I don't want to. I just don't think anybody's in a situation to do anything that they want to do right now. I think we're in a. We have, we have to do some different things. You can get with a lawyer and try to go get, do what you got to do. I don't know what the laws are, so you need to get with an attorney there. I would be, I'd want to look in the mirror first. We'll be right back.

[Dave Ramsey]

People tell me about their experiences with big banks all the time. Bad service fees that nickel and dime them to death and predatory lending that tries to catch them in never ending cycles of debt. So if you're ready for a bank that puts people over profits, check out Fair Winds Credit Union. I recommend Fairwinds because they share our Ramsey values of helping people get out of debt and live generously. If you go to fairwinds.org Ramsey you'll see the combined checking and savings account bundle they created just for Ramsey fans. This account bundle is designed to help you take control of your finances and stay out of debt. And Fairwinds also has a great mobile app that's safe and secure so you can manage your transactions with peace of mind. Fairwinds has been helping people avoid big bank traps for 75 years. So go to Fairwinds.org Ramsey to learn more. It's easy to join no matter where you live. That's F A I R W I n d s.org RAMSEY Hey, Dave Ramsey here. Dr. John DeLoney and I are coming to a city near you on the Money and Relationships tour. You, the audience will vote to choose the topics. We talk about things that impact your life like investing in your future, money, stress and marriage and more. We're coming to Louisville, Durham, Atlanta, Kansas City, Fort Worth and Phoenix in April and May 2025. Tickets are at their lowest price right now. Grab [e-mail] tour.

[John Deloney]

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. 888-255-225. George, that last call. I, I think it's important just to say this. On this show we're often able to help somebody with their money or their marriage and, and find see a path through it, right? And when you're living in chaos or the world is falling down around you, sometimes it's helpful to get somebody just to shine a light and say, hey, I see a path out where you can't see it. I'm at a different vantage point right. When military, when they're doing a raid, there's always people eyes in the sky. It's important to have people looking at a problem from different perspectives. Sometimes the situation's just bad and there's not a lot of great options.

[George Camel]

No secret thing you haven't thought of that's right.

[John Deloney]

Other than put down your anger and put down your hatred and just go do the next right thing and it sucks and I hate it. Not by your hand, but in your lap. Here we are, the hurricane hit your house, and any amount of poking and yelling and screaming and raging and. And running, your house is still falling down. What are you going to do next? Right. And that's a. That's a. That's one of those bummers. When you're listening to the show, when you and I are on the, like, trying to help somebody, it's like, there's not a good option here. You can take a really painful route or maybe a less painful route, but all the routes are painful. And so choose the one that's going to get you the most dignity and respect and where you want to end up.

[George Camel]

And I imagine when something traumatic happens and you're grieving a piece of that, grieving often looks like trying to find a villain, trying to find a shortcut to fix this, someone that can take this on.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. There's a great proverb that says, I finally confronted my anger and sat down. And she took off her mask and revealed herself as grief. And it's like, I want to be so enraged and mad. And here's the reality. This just happened. And that last caller. I don't want my husband, who we got divorced. I. He's got this small 401k. I don't want him to pass away because he's. He's literally passing away. And I don't want his new wife to get it right. Exhale. Right. This is just a bump. The whole thing's a mess. Right. So anyway, sometimes it's just not a. There's not a silver lining. You gotta go straight through the middle of the storm and hang on.

[Grace]

Right.

[John Deloney]

And hang on. That's part of the show, I think.

[George Camel]

We don't always have magic answers. No. When we do, it is magic.

[John Deloney]

It is cool. But sometimes I'll pull up a seat on the curb next to you in front of your house that just blew down. And I got a. I got a lighter if you got a smoke, and I'll sit here with you. But it's nothing's. Nothing's easy from here on out. Right. Let's go to Toronto and talk to Bethany. What's up, Bethany?

[Grace]

How are you?

[John Deloney]

Awesome. How about you?

[Grace]

I'm okay, thank you.

[John Deloney]

Excellent. What's up?

[Grace]

My question. My question is. So I'd be paying off. My only debt I have is just my car payment tomorrow. So that would be clear.

[John Deloney]

Congratulations.

[Grace]

Thank you. My husband has just a $7,200 car payment, and he just took out another line of credit for 8,000. So my question is, I have about $600 spare from my car payment. Should I help him pay back his line of credit? But my word is that he paid off $10,000 line of credit last year, and he took another $8,000 and put in stock. So my worry is that if I help pay him, like help pay his line of credit back, he's going to take another line of credit and we're going to be in debt still over and over again.

[George Camel]

I'm more worried about the marriage than the debt.

[John Deloney]

Way more. Me and my roommates in college were more aligned on our finances than you and your husband are.

[Grace]

Yeah, we don't have joint accounts. We have separate.

[George Camel]

But I heard on the Internet that it's best to have separate accounts. And here you are telling me. Yeah, okay, I'm joking with you because this is the hate we get when we tell people combined finances for this reason, for transparency, accountability. Because it's real hard to make financial mistakes when your partner is locked in arms with you. You have someone else to say, hey, maybe we shouldn't take out that line of credit. So did you know he was doing this and agree to it? Did you tell him, stop. Did he do it behind your back?

[Grace]

So I didn't know. He took out another eight grand. He was talking about it, but I didn't know as she was doing it. All I said was, you, we just paid off. Well, he just paid off the ten grand. He worked overtime to do that. And he said, well, I really want to do stocks. You know, I was like, okay, look into it. And he took out 8k for it. And I didn't think he would actually do it because we just. He just finished.

[George Camel]

So he essentially went into debt to gamble. Yeah, it sounds like he has. He may have some addiction issues here.

[Grace]

So he got into finances after reading Dave Ramsey books?

[John Deloney]

Yeah, he didn't read any book Dave Ramsey wrote. I could tell you that.

[Grace]

Yeah, he wanted to do something different, I think, and he wanted to do stocks, which I like. He's into stocks now. I have no idea what, like, he's.

[John Deloney]

Probably day trading in, which basically what day trading is, is. It's.

[George Camel]

It's gambling for financial nerds.

[John Deloney]

Well, even better than that, it's a piecemeal donation to large hedge funds managers.

[Grace]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

That's what it is. He's just taking that $8,000 and he's breaking up in little pieces and giving it away to really rich men and women to make them richer.

[Grace]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

It's not good.

[George Camel]

So let. Let me answer your question simply. Should you help your husband pay off his debt? No. Should you guys pay off your debts? Yes. So there's a different piece of language that's going to require some hard conversations, some resets, some alignment to go. We're doing everything together, and that means no more debt. We're paying this off once and for all. And you're not going to make any decisions behind my back. I'm not going to make any decisions behind your back.

[John Deloney]

And I think what I'm hearing here, Bethany from Toronto, is your marriage is in a mess, and I would recommend sitting down because this isn't. This. This kind of stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. There's. It's not like y'all are completely aligned on raising kids and the future and vacations and holidays and savings. And then all of a sudden, he pulls out an $8,000 loan and puts it in the stock market, puts it on red 50 and. And spins the roulette wheel. This is two people who are barely roommates who are trying to co manage a house. But this isn't building a united marriage that it's you and him versus the world, which is what you have to have to survive these days. So you sit down with him and y'all say. And you exhale and say, I'm scared about us. I'm scared about the way we handle money. I'm scared about the way I don't know where things are going and how they're going. Will you join me on this? But your marriage is in. In on some pretty thin ice, and that's worth addressing before you get into the money stuff. But yes, once y'all are aligned, you both work really hard to pay off each other's debts because it's Yalls. There's one debt, it's ours. Right? Let's go out to Tampa, Florida and talk to Victor. Hey, Victor. What's up, brother?

[Anthony]

How you doing?

[John Deloney]

Great, man. What's up?

[Grace]

So I was just.

[John Deloney]

I'm just getting into investment, and I was just wondering if we will was.

[Anthony]

A good platform to start with.

[Grace]

And how do I start investing into.

[John Deloney]

A mutual fund or an index fund?

[George Camel]

Why are you going with Webull? Why go with any singular app that you can get on your phone?

[John Deloney]

So I. I had actual we will.

[George Camel]

For about a year now.

[Grace]

I haven't really done nothing when I didn't have it.

[Anthony]

And then I found you guys a.

[John Deloney]

Channel and started watching you guys. So I didn't know if, you know.

[Anthony]

I really just don't have any knowledge on it.

[John Deloney]

Well, the best thing I can tell you guys, the best thing I can tell you is what George and I do with our money that helps feed and, and, and honor and protect our wives and our kids. And that is we call smartvestor Pros and we sit down with them and they walk us through and then they do the investing on their platform or.

[George Camel]

We use our workplace 401k and maybe.

[John Deloney]

Get on and do a index fund or something.

[George Camel]

But webull was designed for day traders which if you heard on that last call, that's the kind of people who are using webull. It's not to say you can't find some decent funds on there and invest in an index fund. What I'm telling you is if you use one of those apps, it's going to psychologically get you to do something dumb and that they're going to give.

[John Deloney]

You notifications and hey, look out.

[George Camel]

You should make a trade today.

[John Deloney]

We'll give you a free trade. If you make five trades, you're like, oh, okay or oh, stocks are down, you want to make a trade. And their whole thing, it's like, it's like a tying your funds to a TikTok account. Is that right, George?

[George Camel]

Yeah. So Victor, if you want to do. I have no problem with DIY investing. If you know what you're doing, you're comfortable with it. You've already built a foundation. But most people going on here are in crippling debt trying to get rich off a stock trade. And that's not how building wealth works.

[John Deloney]

And I guess the bigger picture is I always go back. I always go back to it like I'm made. I'm friends with Dave Ramsey, SmartVestor Pro. Right. And so if Dave isn't playing around trying thinking he could beat the market and he's got a guy who takes care of the mutual fund allocations to that's good enough for me because I know this. I'm not smarter than that guy when it comes to this.

[George Camel]

And these people are not doing retirement investing in Weeble. So I would start there. You want tax advantaged investing in a retirement account, go with that with your employer, a Roth ira. You can go with one of the big three if you want to do that. Vanguard, Schwab Fidelity. But I would not mess with these bells and whistles apps that try to get you lure you back in for another trade. That's how you lose your shirt, my man.

[John Deloney]

Triple 882-55-5225 Ramsey Show. We'll be right back.

[Dave Ramsey]

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[George Camel]

Still remember 10 years ago, 23 years old. I was frustrated, anxious and flat broke. I had followed all the ways that toxic money culture had led me down from well meaning parents and misguided guidance counselors and it left me with a pile of debt. But I'm telling you, it doesn't have to stay that way. Over a decade, I went from broke to millionaire and I break it all down in my new book, Breaking Free From Broke. I'm gonna show you just how toxic this money system is and how you can break free from credit scores and credit cards and student loans and auto loans and investing traps and finally, live a life that you're not exhausted by. A life with more margin, more options and more peace. If you want to check out the book, go to ramseysolutions.com store to get your copy of Breaking Free from broke. That's ramseysolutions.com store.

[John Deloney]

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm John Deloney, joined by by the one and only George P. Camel. Today's question of the day is brought to you by why Refi? Now, we don't recommend refinancing on everything, but for distressed private student loans, there is why Refi. We trust Y Refi because they help you with a low fixed interest rate you could not get anywhere else. They help you stick to your budget and ultimately get out of debt. Learn [e-mail] Ramsey that's the letter y r e f y.com Ramsey may not be available in all states.

[George Camel]

Today's question comes from Kurt in Florida. I'm a 30 year old business professional making six figures with a car payment and a mortgage. I bought a home in Florida mainly for my mom who now lives with me. I cover all the household expenses, including food and bills. She receives 1,000 in Social Security every month, which she doesn't touch, even though I ask her to at least contribute to the cost of groceries. My mom also pressures me to send money to relatives in another country, even though I've explained that I don't have much left after my financial priorities. Am I wrong for asking her to contribute financially even though I can technically afford it? How do I set boundaries without feeling guilty or jeopardizing my financial goals? My father passed away three years ago, so it's just me and her.

[John Deloney]

Let's start at the end here. How do I set boundaries without feeling guilty or jeopardizing my financial goals? You don't. You don't. You set boundaries. I love how Dr. Becky Kennedy says boundaries are something that require nothing of somebody else and they require me to act. And so I'm setting a boundary here. I'm not going to put any more money out there or I'm not going to send any money overseas. And then your body might feel guilty, your money body might feel shamed for whatever, fine. But then I'm going to go on and do the next right thing because I'm not going to be dragged around by my feelings by the nose. And is it, am I wrong for asking her to contribute financially? No. Is she going to? No. So what are you going to do? You're going to kick your mom out over her not paying $500 in whatever bills you get? I'm saying, like, I mean, what are you going to do?

[George Camel]

Well, it sounds like he's, by the way this is all phrased, he's resentful that he even is in this position. I bought a home in Florida mainly for my mom. She gets this money, I ask her to contribute and she's not doing it. She's asking me to do this for relatives in the other country. So he's fed up with this whole situation that he's put himself in.

[John Deloney]

He set the whole thing up and his mom looked at him, was like, yeah, I'm not doing that. And so you have a decision to.

[George Camel]

Make and you want to be an honorable son, which I think is what has caused a lot of this, of saying, well, mom didn't prepare for retirement. She makes a thousand bucks a month, which by the way, is below poverty level.

[John Deloney]

Right.

[George Camel]

And now I need to float her bills oh, and by the way, dad passed away, so now I'm the man of the house needing to provide for her.

[John Deloney]

And by the way, she pressures me. Dude, you're a grown man. You just bought a house. Stop feeling pressured to do something that you can't afford to do. Move on with your life. So here's. This is some tough love here, George. Here's Kurt's options. Sell the house, tell mom you're on your own. You make 12,000 GS a year. Go make it happen. Or continue to share a house with your mom and continue to pay the bills and choose every day. I'm not going to choose misery by walking around looking at all the stuff she's not doing that I wish she would. Move on with your life, right? There's not a lot. There's no gray area here, right? You're going to kick your mom out and go on about your life or you're going to make peace with the fact that your mom gets a thousand bucks a month and she shoves it in an account somewhere, probably going to you, but maybe going overseas, whatever. Fine. I'm just to a point now, George, where we create these situations and what we want is for everything to be exactly how we want it and perfect. And I get to say what I. You can do that. But every one of those conversations, every one of those demands everyone's boundaries, comes with consequences. And the consequence might be cool, your mom's out on the street, that's. That could be a consequence. It might be that your mom nags you. Okay, I'm moving on with my life, right? It might be that you're frustrated because your other 30 year old buddies are doing out doing stuff, they're hanging out, they're dating, having fun and you're stuck. You're taking care of your mom. I get that. That sucks, man. That's hard. And what an amazing place to be that you get to help and take care of your mom, right? You get to do that. And maybe you got to sell your car instead of having a car payment and you make six figures and you wanted to drive Alexis, but all I can afford is a Camry because I'm a guy who gets to take care of his mom because I make six figures. Like what a blessing. Move on with your life. You stop the.

[George Camel]

All the time I'm thinking about if you get rid of this car payment, that's kind of like what mom would have given you for groceries. So you can kind of create that income for yourself by getting rid of this Car that you couldn't afford.

[John Deloney]

Choose to not be miserable.

[George Camel]

Choose freedom. As my friend Dr. John Deloney says.

[John Deloney]

That guy's usually wrong, but on that one, I think he's right. Choose freedom. You're taking care of your mom. What a blessing. What a blessing. It was backstage at a. At a John Maxwell event. I'll speak in it. And the other speaker you may have never heard of, his name's Deion Sanders.

[George Camel]

Heard of him? Talk about one of my top three favorite Dions.

[John Deloney]

Talk about feeling good about yourself. And then he walks back, oh, oh, he's keynote and after you.

[Grace]

Right?

[John Deloney]

So Dion walks back there, and he was having a conversation with somebody, and he said the phrase, I'm so blessed that I'm in a position that I get to take care of my mom. And I remember thinking, what an amazing perspective shift. I have to take care of my parents. I have to. I get to. Amazing, right? And so you can choose that way of seeing the world, or you can choose that the whole world's out to get me, and my mom is blowing her thousand dollars by sending it to other people in other countries who may need it to. Right. So I'm just not going to choose misery anymore.

[George Camel]

My favorite part of this question is the fact that he referenced himself as a business professional. I've just never heard that in real life. And I appreciate that, Kurt. I'm going to refer to myself as a business professional.

[John Deloney]

I think you qualify for a business professional. Or as they say in the biz, a bp. Let's go out to San Antonio, Texas. Nobody refers to that. That's batting practice. And talk to Kristen. What's up, Kristen?

[Grace]

Hello.

[John Deloney]

How we doing?

[Grace]

Well, I'm calling y'all.

[John Deloney]

So, so not well.

[George Camel]

Thank you for your honesty.

[John Deloney]

You have reached the bottom of the advice.

[George Camel]

Most people are like, I'm doing so great. We're like, how's. What's going on? Like, well, I'm in crippling debt and super stress. What's up?

[Grace]

Well, I am calling because my husband and I, when we had some debt issues, we went to, like, a negotiation company. Basically, you know, they have us going into delinquency, and then they negotiate.

[George Camel]

You give the payments to them instead, which tanks your credit. Collectors come after you, and then they go, we'll. We'll help you settle, and it'll all work out, right?

[Grace]

Yes. And I was totally against it. My husband. It just. Okay, so this is the reality. So they have negotiated. We have a total of about 38,000 in debt with three different creditors. It's credit cards. So two of our credit cards were negotiated or settled, I should say. And we spoke to the representative yesterday, because I'm like, I want to know, can we get out of this? What's the penalty? You know, what does this all entail? And so right now, we still have one creditor that has not been negotiated yet. And I'm trying to tell my husband. I'm like, I want to get out of this. I think we can handle it ourselves. But, you know, he's kind of like, well, we're in it now, and we need to, you know, stick with it so we can get out of this. And I'm just trying to see if we do have a path to get out of it.

[George Camel]

You do, and you'll have to cancel the, you know, contract with them. So, you know, check the document you signed for a cancellation clause, see if there's any fees or penalties for getting out of this. But how much is it?

[Grace]

So the fees and penalties. So we've been 10 months into the program. Once they do your negotiations, for every payment that you do, it's $347 per credit card, you know, that they are negotiating just to fees.

[George Camel]

So, I mean, it's insane.

[Grace]

And that's for 12 months is what it is.

[George Camel]

You see why I'm not a fan of these companies?

[Grace]

Oh, absolutely.

[George Camel]

Hey, let's help you get out of debt by screwing you over completely.

[Grace]

Exactly. But they're like, the payoff right now for those two would only be 16,000.

[George Camel]

How much money do you guys make?

[Grace]

So we very much a budgeter, but we're about bringing home about 6,300. That's after taxes.

[George Camel]

Amazing. Which tells me you guys on that budget can get out of this on your own. And so I would figure out what the fees are and calculate it and go, all right, we're going to be out of this debt faster on our own, instead of hoping, wishing, waiting on someone else to do it while screwing us over.

[John Deloney]

Just chalk it up to something that Dave famously calls a stupid tax, maybe.

[George Camel]

A sunk cost fallacy.

[John Deloney]

Ooh, I like that.

[George Camel]

Like, that's a fancy word.

[John Deloney]

We've got some fees we got to pay because we signed this thing because we were scared. We're not scared anymore. We're heading straight into the storm. We're going to pay this stuff off. We make enough money, we'll figure it out.

[George Camel]

It's the never again fee.

[John Deloney]

There you. Oh, that's a nicer way to say that. I call millennial. Millennial of You. It's the Ramsey Show. We'll be right back.

[George Camel]

Okay, picture this. You sit down to do your taxes, but instead of stressing out, you're actually ahead of the game. And filing with an affordable software that makes your computer shoot confetti when you're done. Okay, not that last part, but Ramsey Smart Tax does make filing easy and doesn't make your bank account cry. Ramsey SmartTax is a hundred percent accurate software that's honest about its pricing and is backed by a company who's been in the business for over 50 years. So go to ramseysolutions.com smarttax to take advantage of early bird pricing and stress free filing. That's ramseysolutions.com smarttax welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm George Camel here with Dr. John DeLoney. If you've been listening to the show for any amount of time, you've you may have heard us do a baby steps Millionaire theme hour. And so from time to time we like to hear from real life millionaires. Not the ones you see on Instagram and private jets. Those are not millionaires. They're either faking it or they're billionaires. Real life people like you and me. There's only two, John. There's only two types. The one that rent it by the hour and the people who own it. There you go. And so we're going to hear from Kirk in Las Vegas and see how he did it. How did he actually create a million dollar net worth? Kirk, what's going on, my man? How you doing?

[Anthony]

I'm doing great. How are you doing, guys?

[George Camel]

Great, Great. So tell us your story. How old are you and what is your net worth?

[Anthony]

I am 53. My net worth is 2.6.

[George Camel]

Wow. Okay, give us the breakdown of the 2.6.

[Anthony]

Okay. IRAs, 401K, almost 1.5. Non retirement, 370. My home and inherited home, 620. And I have a side business about 180ish somewhere in there.

[George Camel]

Awesome. That's impressive. Okay, and what's your household income?

[Anthony]

220.

[George Camel]

And how long you've been making that kind of money?

[Anthony]

A few years.

[George Camel]

Okay. What do you do for a living?

[Anthony]

Yeah, I'm an accountant.

[George Camel]

All right. Love it. And did you get a degree, I assume?

[Anthony]

Yes, I did. Yes.

[George Camel]

Okay. And what was your GPA?

[Anthony]

My undergraduate, about 334-and then graduate with my masters, it was about 3 7.

[John Deloney]

Nice, I like that. Undergraduate GPA, that means you went to class and you had a good time. Well done.

[George Camel]

So that's a solid mix. And so the majority here, you said how much in the IRA and 401k total?

[Anthony]

About 145.

[George Camel]

Okay, so that makes up the majority. And then the next biggest chunk would be real estate.

[Anthony]

Correct?

[George Camel]

Way to go.

[Anthony]

Yeah. It would be my home. And my mom passed a year ago. Inherited her house.

[George Camel]

Yeah. How much inheritance did you get and when?

[Anthony]

330 total. And that was November of 23.

[George Camel]

Long after you were a millionaire?

[Anthony]

Oh, yes, for sure.

[George Camel]

Okay, so that proves our point. A lot of people think, well, a lot of these people inherited their money. So it's easy for Kirk to say. But you already did the hard work and then you got a pile of money from mom's legacy.

[Anthony]

Correct.

[George Camel]

Amazing. Okay, so what do you attribute this to?

[John Deloney]

I.

[Anthony]

About 240 from her IRA and the home value was about 90.

[George Camel]

Okay, so when did you sort of get your finances together? I mean, you're obviously in the accounting world. You understand basic mathematics. If I put money away, I'll have some. If I spend it all on stupid crap and pay interest, I'll lose it. So did you get this early on?

[Anthony]

Actually, yes. It's kind of funny. I didn't come across Dave's principles and teachings until about 10 years ago, but I've been living this way since I was in high school. I mean, I hate. No debt. Hated debt. Want to invest. I want to become a millionaire. Want to have options of retiring early or not. And, and so it was funny when I came across Dave's principles, I was like, oh my gosh, this is exactly what I do. You know, I was glad to see that somebody else is out there and it's. And they're telling people, this is what you should do versus, oh, just go get a loan. Go get a loan. Put on a credit card. You know, I was like, no, I hate debt. Yeah.

[George Camel]

So have you ever had debt?

[Anthony]

Well, yes, I bought my house initially. Yeah.

[George Camel]

Mortgage. Okay.

[John Deloney]

That's it.

[George Camel]

But no consumer mortgage.

[Anthony]

Yeah. Oh, no, not pay cash for cars. You know, the whole deal? Yes.

[John Deloney]

Wow.

[George Camel]

What are you driving? Can I ask what you're driving today?

[Anthony]

Yeah, we're. We're both driving 2014. I have a BMW. My wife has a Mercedes. So they're 10 year old cars. Bought them when they're about 3 or 4 years old somewhere in there, but.

[George Camel]

And you've maintained them well, been driving. You kind of drive them till the wheels fall off and then you'll buy something else with cash.

[John Deloney]

Kirk, I don't know if you Know this. I know there's been a flurry of executive orders signed recently, but one of the new executive orders orders is it's illegal to drive a 10 year old car if you're rich.

[George Camel]

Gross. You know, you're driving like a ticking time bomb, Kirk.

[John Deloney]

You know, it's just not safe. You know, you're not making a wise decision. And oh, oh, the other thing is your neighbors, they're going to talk about you on their Tik Tok accounts because you have a 2014. They probably think you're poor, Kirk.

[Anthony]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Wow. Hey, where did this just like wild dose of common sense come from at early age?

[Anthony]

My parents basically said, you want to go to college, save your money, we're not going to have it for you. So I started, you know, cutting grass, selling snow, had a paper route, buying savings bonds for college. And you know, you know, that was the plan and, and my dad taught me about money and stuff and, and just that was a big interest to me. And I think, okay, here's how money can work for you with investing and here's how it works against you with borrowing. And that was my philosophy from day one. And like I said when I came across these teachings about ten years ago was, it was like, oh my gosh, this is confirmation of exactly what, how I've been thinking and what I've been doing. And, and then I took my wife to, you know, FPU because she was just the opposite. You know, it's trying to get her out of that mentality. And finally she like, oh, okay, this is what you were telling me about, but now somebody else told her about it. So now she's going to listen, hey.

[John Deloney]

It'S the end result.

[George Camel]

How long you been married?

[Anthony]

This would be 16 years.

[George Camel]

Amazing. Can I ask how your, I guess financial freedom, your wealth, how has that affected your marriage? Has there been less money fights over those 16 years? What do you guys fight about now?

[Anthony]

Fight by now about spending it?

[George Camel]

Yeah. Are you like, are you tight fisted going, no, we gotta just, why would we do that? You're the frugal one and she's sort of trying to get you to let go.

[Anthony]

Yes, but I'm trying to now I'm at a point where I'm trying to. She works in a, you know, stressful healthcare environment in hospital, trying to get her to, okay, here, now you can retire early and do, just do per diem, what you want, where you want, but because now I have the, you know, financial freedom to do that versus, oh, you have to do your nine to five, you know, weekly. And now we're at a point, now it's actually going to help or to.

[George Camel]

Have that give you the flexibility.

[John Deloney]

You mean, you mean to show you may tell you actually yeah, here's a hack you can use with her for that.

[Anthony]

What's that?

[John Deloney]

Take her to some concerts there in Vegas.

[Anthony]

Oh yeah, she, she goes all the.

[John Deloney]

Time but you go take her to.

[Anthony]

A couple of comments or sometimes no.

[John Deloney]

Start going with her more and show her we're okay.

[Anthony]

I know during the non tax season, a true accountant. I'm, I'm yeah, 80, 90 hours a week, whatever, you know, during tax season. So yeah, there you go.

[George Camel]

Can I ask your plan for quote unquote retirement?

[Anthony]

Sure.

[George Camel]

Because you guys will have, by the time you're at retirement age 10 years from now, your net worth will be my guess is probably closer to 6 million. And that's if you do nothing else.

[Anthony]

Right, right. Yeah. Plan is at some point, I mean I have a full time job, you know, I'm a controller for a company but I also have my side business, tax business. At some point it's retire full time, maybe work part time as a controller and then the tax business in consulting business. Just do that year round.

[George Camel]

Do it for fun. You get to choose your clients.

[Anthony]

I can't do nothing. I can't do nothing. I like what I do, I like helping people. So I can't do nothing. So I would at least do that and give my wife the freedom to hey, you can leave your job and you can help me during tax season and we'll turn into a full time thing, you know, then the rest of the year you can travel, you know, because she's, you know, loves to travel. So we, we, I try and travel with more with her but she goes with her family as well.

[John Deloney]

That's amazing, dude. Congratulations brother.

[George Camel]

So just talk to the, the 23 year old out there who might be listening going, I'm gonna either listen to this TikTok I found on how to get rich quick or Kirk, what advice would you give that 23 year old?

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's funny because I, that's advice that I had myself when I was 23 was basically I tell young people now be the tortoise, not the hare. I've been telling people that for 20 years and I came across Dave's teachings and I hear the same thing. I have no problem with the long, long run, but start young. I started investing, I was early 20s, but at that point it was just IRAs and you know, you only put $2,000 away. I never opportunity with a 401k until I was 27. Wow. I was stuck doing 2,000 a year in IRA back then other than, you know, not retirement stuff, you know, buying some, you know, stocks and stuff. But, but now there's, there's so much out there. Start young, get it in there and forget about the, the fancy car, the.

[George Camel]

New car and the stuff just delayed gratification. Be a crock pot in a world full of microwaves.

[John Deloney]

Dude, you're an inspiration.

[George Camel]

Kirk, thank you so much for sharing your story.

[John Deloney]

What a hero, man. You're down the road from both me and George a little bit age wise and you're a good light force us. I'm really grateful. Ramsey Network app is where you're going to find the next hour of this show or if you're listening to it on radio. We're coming right back. Join us on the Ramsey Network app, the only place to get the full episodes of the Ramsey Show. Download it for free using the link in the Show Notes. We'll see you in the next hour. Stay tuned. The right questions are the key to unlock personal and professional potential. That means if you're not where you want to be, you are not asking the right questions. I'm Ken Coleman and this is what my new show Front Row Seat is all about. Over my career, I've had the distinct privilege to interview successful people from all walks of life and to coach over 10,000 professionals who wanted more. What sets successful people apart is a never ending desire to learn and grow. Each week I'll be joined by industry leaders and world class experts to have a conversation about how to get better, move up and lead well in work and life. But the best part of this show is you get to be a part of the conversation. Live in studio, we'll have a group of professionals just like you who have the power to ask questions and steer the discussion in real time. It's an opportunity to get real answers to real questions like how to make the right decisions, have hard conversations, live a balanced life and discover your next steps to growth. Join us every Tuesday for conversations that are guaranteed to surprise, challenge and inspire you. Check out Front Row Seat wherever you get your podcasts.