Debt Always Comes With Strings Attached

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ramsey Show

Episode Title: Debt Always Comes With Strings Attached
Air Date: September 9, 2025
Hosts: Dave Ramsey & Rachel Cruze Ramsey

Main Theme

This episode centers on the foundational Ramsey principle: "Debt always comes with strings attached." Through a blend of live listener calls and direct advice, Dave Ramsey and Rachel Cruze explore why eliminating debt—especially mortgages and so-called “good debt”—leads not only to greater financial security, but also to increased psychological and emotional freedom. The hosts engage with callers struggling with major financial decisions, marriage dynamics and trauma, always bringing the focus back to intentional behavior and the peace that comes from living debt free.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Paying Off Your Mortgage vs. Investing (00:42–13:00)

• Caller David: Asks if he should use $100k+ in savings to invest or pay off his mortgage, especially since the home isn't their "forever home".
• Dave’s Advice:
  • Follow the "Baby Steps": After building an emergency fund, pay off the home.
  • Psychological impact is underappreciated:

    "When you walk out in the backyard and take your shoes off, the grass feels different. You don't understand that you're setting down 300 pounds of weight." (04:25 – Dave)

  • Even if the house isn’t forever, the equity returns upon selling.
  • No one regrets paying off their mortgage.
  • Notable anecdote: Dave describes the peace he and his wife feel returning to their paid-for home (06:08).
• Rachel’s Insight:
  • Reframes concern over equity vs. liquidity.
  • "You'll still get it back out; it's just in equity versus cash in the bank." (05:18)
• Memorable Quote:

  "Debt is dumb. Cash is king, and the borrower is slave to the lender." (08:20 – Dave)

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2. Marriage Dynamics and Money Control (10:30–19:40)

• Caller Christina:
  Her husband claims since he earns the income, he gets to spend freely while she, as a stay-at-home mom, gets no say in money decisions.
• Dave’s Strong Rebuke:
  • Marriage = shared income; both spouses have a vote regardless of outside work.
  • "If he thinks he's in control of his income, let me teach him what a divorce attorney will teach him." (12:04)
  • "You're dealing with a child. That's the problem." (11:43)
• Rachel’s Empathy:
  • Stresses the value and difficulty of being a full-time mom.
  • “You work harder than he does.”
  • Warns that allowing this dynamic models bad relationships for children.
• Urgent Advice:
  • Seek counseling, healthy church community.
  • “If you put up with this, it bleeds into every part of the marriage.” (16:12 – Rachel)

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3. Should High-Income Earners Rush to Pay Off Low-Interest Debt? (22:18–31:01)

• Caller Dylan:
  $2.3 million in low-interest debt, $1.5 million income, wonders if it’s wise to pay off fast or use leverage.
• Dave’s Response:
  • Debt equals risk—regardless of interest rate.
  • Even at a low rate, you can “feel the risk.”
  • Advocates for sophisticated risk-adjusted approaches:

  "You’re not really making the spread [between mortgage and investments] because the math formula leaves out the risk." (25:31 – Dave)

  • Encouraged to pay off car loan and student loan immediately; mortgages can be paid off at a deliberate pace.
• Rachel’s Take:
  • The “peace premium”: True security comes from ownership, not mathematical margins.
  • "Solve for peace, have peace in your life." (30:08)

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4. Other Notable Callers & Financial Scenarios

Home Purchase Decisions & Trying Before Buying (43:05–48:36)

• Caller Robert: Considers spending $200,000 on a motor coach for retirement travel.
• Dave’s Guidance:
  • Can afford it, but recommends renting a coach first.
  • "Try it before you buy it." (47:02)
  • Draws parallels to second-home purchases and regret minimization.

Should You Help a Lazy Sibling with Housing? (33:43–40:53)

• Caller Josh: Struggles with guilt over moving out and leaving less motivated younger brothers to manage rent.
• Dave & Rachel:
  • Don't enable laziness; give ample notice.
  • Adult children must make their own choices.

Dual Home Ownership After Loss (53:53–61:35)

• Caller Michelle: Widowed, owns homes in FL and UT, debates what to do.
• Key Insights:
  • Only own where you do life; don't keep property unless you’ll actively use it.
  • Expense of keeping an empty home is not justified by infrequent visits.
  • Strongly discouraged renting out a distant property for emotional and practical reasons.

Crypto & Paying Off Debt (64:56–69:15)

• Caller Josh: Has $20k in crypto, $28k debt left.
• Advice:
  • Liquidate any non-retirement investment, including crypto, to finish Baby Step 2.
  • Dave on crypto:

    “It’s as dumb as Beanie Babies. People are using up their wealth-building power on a fad.” (67:24)

Real Estate Investment Burnout (79:42–83:09)

• Caller Megan: Overwhelmed by managing two condos, advisor suggests rolling into out-of-state multifamily.
• Advice:
  • Don’t escalate stress: selling is fine if real estate is a headache.
  • It’s okay to step out of direct real estate ownership.

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5. Deep Dives into Risk, Debt, and Human Behavior

Throughout the episode, Dave and Rachel return to their core philosophy:

• Debt increases risk—period.
  • “More debt equals more risk. Huge amounts of debt as a percentage of net worth equals huge amounts of risk.” (24:43)
• Being debt-free brings peace, options, and unquantifiable psychological benefits.
• Most financial decisions have emotional and relational roots, not just mathematical ones.
• Enablement vs. empowerment: Don’t prop up others’ bad behavior out of guilt or misplaced loyalty.
• Pausing investing during emergencies or transitions is okay; stability comes first.

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Notable Quotes

• "Debt is dumb. Cash is king, and the borrower is slave to the lender." (08:20 – Dave)
• "When you walk out...and take your shoes off, the grass feels different." (04:25 – Dave)
• "You work harder than he does... The value you bring to the household is as important, if not arguably more important." (13:54 – Rachel)
• “You’re not really making the spread because the math formula you’re using is naive. It left out the risk.” (25:31 – Dave)
• "Solve for peace, have peace in your life" (30:08 – Rachel)
• "Try it before you buy it." (47:02 – Dave)
• “The better angels in all of us have the ability to enable.” (39:43 – Dave)
• "It's okay if you don't want real estate." (82:41 – Rachel)
• “Personal finance is 80% behavior. It’s only 20% head knowledge.” (92:55 – Dave)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Mortgage vs. Investing Decision: 00:42–13:00
• Marriage & Financial Control: 10:30–19:40
• Low-Interest Debt Discussion: 22:18–31:01
• Home Purchase for Retirement: 43:05–48:36
• Siblings and Housing Costs: 33:43–40:53
• Widow with Two Homes: 53:53–61:35
• Crypto to Pay Debt: 64:56–69:15
• Investment Properties Burnout: 79:42–83:09

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Episode Tone & Style

Dave and Rachel mix southern charm, “tough love,” empathy, humor and personal anecdotes. They challenge financial myths, speak candidly about dysfunctional behavior, and always steer listeners back to practical steps with a long-term vision of stability, generosity, and peace.

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For First-Time Listeners

This episode showcases classic Ramsey advice applied to real-world struggles:

• Aggressively eliminate debt for true freedom
• Don’t sacrifice peace and relationships for mathematical gains
• Always consider the behavioral, relational, and spiritual dimensions of money decisions
  If you’re seeking actionable answers and candid guidance in a world where “normal is broke,” this episode demonstrates how to live with intention, not just accumulate wealth.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey network in the Fair Winds Credit Union studio. This is the Ramsey show. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. The phone number is 888-825-5225. The call is free and some say the advice is wor what you pay for it. Rachel Cruz Ramsey, personality number one best selling author and my daughter is my co host. Today David is in New Orleans. Hi David, how are you?

[Caller]

I'm good. How are you today?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Caller]

So I have about 100 to $110,000 extra that I just don't know how to invest at the moment. I'm not sure whether put it towards my house to pay off mortgage or to invest in like a money market fund or like a high yield savings what to do with it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good for you. Where'd you get it?

[Caller]

Just saving. My wife and I are very, very frugal.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, way to go man. Congratulations. So we teach a process to become wealthy. We have proven that it's the shortest path to wealth called the baby steps. Have you ever heard of that?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so baby step one, save $1,000. You've done that. Two has become debt free. But the house, I suspect you've done that.

[Caller]

No, we still have the mortgage at 230.

[Dave Ramsey]

I said except the house. Except the house.

[Caller]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're debt free except the house.

[Caller]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, then baby step three is a fully funded emergency fund which is three to six months of expenses for rainy days. Do you have that separate from this 110 or is it included in the 110?

[Caller]

Yes, that is separate from that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, how much is in that fund?

[Caller]

I would say between we have 20,000 in savings, but we have extra that we can put towards that of up to 80. Up to about 50,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so you have 50 plus 110 plus 20.

[Caller]

No, I have more than that. In total we have. That isn't that's included in the money market fund and everything besides the stocks that we have which is 450,000 that we don't really touch. We have total 217 through all our accounts.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so is the stock in a retirement account?

[Caller]

No, it's an. It's in like dividends. So it's, you know, fluctuates. But we have a guy that's that monitors all of that and deals with all of that and so it started off at 300,000 and now it's at 450.

[Dave Ramsey]

How old are you after?

[Caller]

I am 29. My wife is 30.

[Dave Ramsey]

What kind of income do you all have?

[Caller]

Household income, about 150.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, you have done an amazingly good job. Congratulations.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

David, how much is left on the mortgage to 230.

[Caller]

You said 232.

[Dave Ramsey]

So I would write a check today from your cash slaying around non emergency fund and a little bit of the stock if you had to and pay the house off today.

[Caller]

The reason why we're not sure about if that's the right decision.

[Dave Ramsey]

You called and asked me what you should do.

[Caller]

We're not sure if this isn't our forever home. Like we're thinking that we will probably move in 10 to 15 years. So we don't is.

[Dave Ramsey]

So that means you need to stay in debt. That's dumb.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, no, when you sell the house, when you sell the house and move, they're going to give you a check at the closing. You're not losing the money.

[Caller]

Gotcha.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so here's the thing. This is coming from two things. Number one, we know that families that pay off their homes, especially families like you guys, you guys are like super savers. You're amazing what you've done, man. Okay, so all I'm doing is fine tuning one little thing. Okay. When we did a study of 10,167 millionaires, the typical model of the typical millionaire that we found was they had a million to 2 million dollar net worth. And they had, you know, 7, 800, 900,000 in their 401ks retirements and stock investments. And they had a paid for home that was six or seven or $800,000. And the paid for home, here's what it does, it gets rid of the cash drain on your income. You're going to be able to save the house payment. You know how much that house payment, how quick that one house payment is going to be? A million dollars in a mutual fund. Oh my God, son. So fast it's going to blow you away. How quick that one move turns into a million dollars and you don't have a house payment. And when you walk out in the backyard and you take your shoes off, the grass feels different. You don't even understand that you're setting down 300 pounds of weight that you've been carrying around. And when you set it down, you're going to breathe deeper, like cool mountain air into your lungs. So that's where I'm going to tell.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

You to go, David, what causes you to be hesitant about it? When you were like, well, well, well, and you were backing, backing up. What's the, what's in your mind? What are you thinking?

[Caller]

Well, because it's not our forever home. We, you know, we are thinking we're likely going to move in about.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah. But you do understand that you still have. It's just an equity. It's in the house versus cash in the bank. So you. So to his point earlier, you get it back out. So that's not really an argument. So did you have another one, though? Are you wanting to keep these stocks?

[Caller]

Well, yeah. So, yeah, we definitely going to keep this like as in we're keeping the, you know, whatever amount that we have in stocks left or keep it in there for long term because it's been growing very well in there. It's just. We just weren't sure if that makes the most sense because of course we talked to the financial advisors at.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah, no, they won't tell you. They.

[Caller]

I'm also not naive.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Caller]

They won't tell you what's best for the bank as well. I know that. So that's why I'm calling into the show. I want to get the personalized. That's in our best interest, not necessarily totally the best bank.

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

The thing that I, the thing that I didn't understand when I first started doing this, David, and you're a. Matt, you're a wonderful saver. So you're a math nerd like me. I thought this was all a math equation. It's also a psychological, spiritual, emotional, relational equation. When you don't have a house payment, it changes stuff you don't even know was stopped up. It's weird how it unleashes you, your creativity. Just you and your spouse walk in. My wife and I went for a ride on a little. I've got a 1960 convertible and we went for a ride in it last night. We pulled back up front of the house and we both said, that's a good house. And it wasn't like a bragging thing. It wasn't like flex thing. It was just me and her, two old people in the old car. I mean, come on. You know, I mean. But we're just looking at the house going.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And you wouldn't have felt that if there was a mortgage is what you're saying. Like there's a.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I mean, because you don't own it.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

It changes. You might have said that it's a good House. But you would have said it at a different. Even a tone. Even changes your tone of voice. I mean, it's hard to grasp all of this stuff until you actually do it. Here's my challenge for you. Pay off the house, and if you hate being debt free, you can go get you another mortgage. And I've never had any. It's the only piece of advice we give on this show that I've never had anybody call and give me hate mail for after they do it. Now all these people that have theories give me hate mail, but they're broke people with theories. I don't care about their hate mail. That doesn't. We burn that. That's good kindling. But we really don't get. I mean, I've been doing this for almost 40 years, y'. All. The number of people that call me back and said, dave, you told me to pay off my house. I hate you. You're awful. Is zero. Zero.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And it's the one debt no one ever goes back into. Like, we will talk to people on the show like, we are debt free, but now we have $15,000 of credit card debt. I'm like, why'd y' all do that? Or, we were debt free, but we now have a car loan. Why do you know? Like, we'll get those every now and then, but we've never had.

[Dave Ramsey]

Hardly ever. Once you get the mortgage gone, you're like, golly. Oh, my.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

I just was so stressed when we didn't have a mortgage payment, and so I was like, we gotta go back and get one. Let's just go back and borrow on the house so we can invest and do all of this. I'd ra.

[Caller]

Can't.

[Dave Ramsey]

I can't stand being debt free. It's killing me. Nobody ever says that, guys. Nobody do it. You're 29. Give it a try. If we're wrong, you can go back in debt. We've told you for years, debt is dumb. Cash is king, and the borrower is slave to the lender. So when we find a bank that actually gets that, we shout it from the rooftops. That's why we've partnered with Fair Winds Credit Union. These guys aren't pushing credit cards or auto loans like your current bank is. Fairwinds is on your side. And now they've taken it to the next level. They worked with us to create a high yield savings account that gives you a great rate without the junk. No bait and switch rates, no credit score games. Just a simple, powerful way to help you build your emergency Fund fast. It's part of what Fairwinds calls the smart bundle. Made for Ramsey fans. You get high yield savings, a no fee checking account, and zero gimmicks. Just common sense banking that works with the baby steps, not against them. And coming soon, they're launching a brand new Ramsey debit card. It says debt is normal. Be weird right on the front of it. That's not just a card. That's a daily reminder that you do money differently. So check them [e-mail] Ramsey Fairwinds is.

[Caller]

Federally insured by the NCUA.

[Dave Ramsey]

Christina is in South Carolina. Hi, Christina. How are you?

[Caller]

I'm good. How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Good. How can we help?

[Caller]

So my husband and I have been having this real issue lately. He believes that he can spend the money any way he wants because he earns it, because he works for it, and because I stay at home. I can't spend it because the luxuries of being at home with our son, like the power in the water, are my little luxuries that I get. So he can go spend it on snacks, he can go spend it on drinks, he can do whatever he wants with it, but I'm not allowed to do the same.

[Dave Ramsey]

How old is this little boy?

[Caller]

He is 25.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

How long have you guys been married?

[Caller]

We've been married for over a year.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

How many kids do you all have?

[Caller]

We have one.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

It's a very dysfunctional marriage, Christina.

[Caller]

Yes, I have been told that. Okay, good. I should just let him deal with the finances because.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, whoever told you that's as dysfunctional as he is. Who told you that? His mother?

[Caller]

No, that was him. He said that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, he told you that. Okay. I bet he did. I bet he did. Little twerp. Oh, my gosh. So you're dealing with a child. That's the problem.

[Caller]

I try to save money where I can.

[Dave Ramsey]

Honey.

[Caller]

Grocery.

[Dave Ramsey]

Honey, that's not. That's not the point. Okay, let me back up and tell you the way this should be and then we can put that against where it is. Okay. The way it should be is when you are married, regardless of where the income comes from. We have an income. We both have a vote on where every one of those dollars goes. My wife has not worked outside the home in about 40 years. She has a incredible income because we. Because we have an incredible income. Okay? And she gets to decide with me what we will do with our income. Are you hearing these words clearly? None of that's happening here. Just because I earn the income at Ramsey and with the things I do in my life. And she doesn't have an earned income personally does not invalidate her power or her right to a vote inside the household. She has the same exact rights as I do. Not only morally and spiritually, but legally she does. And if he thinks he's in control of his income, let me teach him what a divorce attorney will teach him. He's not in control of his income. They're going to take a big old chunk of it and give it to you and the kid to take care of the kid. So he really does not have as much power as he thinks he has in the law, much less morally, and he's relationally bankrupt. You treat your wife this way, you won't have a wife long. Because, honey, you may put up with this for a while, but you're gonna wake up in a few years and go, I'm done with you being a.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Jerk and treating me like a second class citizen. I'd like him to stay home with a kid. Let me tell you, Christina, it's much easier being in a workplace with a bunch of adults than being home all day. It's exhausting. It's absolutely exhausting. You work harder than he does. I can't.

[Caller]

I think that he does. He's a hard worker.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Oh, Christina. That's not what I'm saying, Christina. It's not that. I'm not saying. I'm just saying the value you bring to the household is as important, if not arguably, maybe more important. You're raising human beings in this household full time. And so the fact that financially, from a numbers perspective, he has and wants full control and treating you like a second class citizen is not okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

This is not okay. You have a dysfunctional marriage, honey. You guys, I really think this guy needs more than I can give him on this call. If I had him on the call, I could box his ears, but it wouldn't last. Okay, but what you guys desperately need is to get involved in a good, strong local church, A church that is healthy and doesn't defend, that isn't supporting his day. But I mean, you get a church that lovingly will teach you exactly what we taught you and get some men in his life to teach this little boy how to be a man. Because masculinity, that's true and not toxic, is service oriented. He serves his wife, he serves his kid, and that's what he should be doing. He's doing the opposite of that. You guys desperately need marriage counseling, honey. Desperately. We can't fix him on this call, you're too messed up. This is just a mess. And, but what I do want to do for you is to confirm that you're not the crazy one. Okay? The feelings that you're having that this is improper are accurate feelings. They're accurate observations, logical observations. And these are two people sitting completely outside of there. Rachel's marriage does not run this way. My marriage does not run this way. And both of them have a lot of.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And any good therapist, marriage therapist would say it's not run that way. That is a complete level of control and can start to be in the, in the sense that you don't even have the ability to access the money, which then becomes another huge problem. And so it's, it's not okay, Christina. It's not okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And it isn't like this guy earns a lot of money either. He's a big deal on nothing. So this just. Yeah, there's so much immaturity here. Sounds like about a 14 year old boy.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Well, and the reason to press into this, Christina, and why it's worth the fight is not only from the financial perspective, getting that cleaned up, but also that mindset doesn't just stay in the money lane of your marriage. That mindset and what he believes about you and your value and what you're capable of starts to bleed into every other part. And so it's not just a one off thing. This is his character and who he is and how he views you. And that's the problem I have.

[Dave Ramsey]

If your baby is a daughter, you're teaching her how women are supposed to be treated by accepting this treatment. Don't do that to her. That's not fair. If your baby is a son, you're teaching him how he's supposed to treat women by accepting the way that you're being treated. Don't do that. That's not fair. So you guys are horrible parents because you're modeling out a dysfunctional thing before this brand new baby right now. And so you've got to work on this, kiddo. You gotta go get some help and you gotta demand it. And we're going to go get some help. I'm going whether you're going or not. And if you don't go, then I may go because I'm not going to put up with this. And that's where you're going to end up. And I will tell you this, I've coached families on money for 30 or 40 years now. And I, you know, I don't like stereotypes much, but I See this more often with ladies than I do men. Like, 98% of the time, this is a lady. They will put up with stuff for so long, and then I don't know what it is in the female psyche. But once that switch flips, once you're done, there'll be nothing he can do to get you back, because you will be done. Guys will come back around. But a lady that's just fed up, fed up, fed up. And finally, switch flips. They are done, done. And you can't reel them back in. I've tried to send them to marriage counseling. I begged them to give them another chance and everything else. And they're like, nope, I've had it with this guy. I'm done. And you can't get them back. And that's going to happen to you, kiddo. It's going to build up, build up, build up. And that switch is going to flip and this whole thing is going to be over. And you sound, like, sweet and naive, and you are right now, but you'll get over it. You'll get over it over time and you'll get tired of the abuse. So you guys need to desperately get some help for your dysfunctional, screwed up marriage, because your husband's view is dysfunctional and screwed up. I hope I wasn't unclear.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

I hope it's all here. And we have a couple that's on their honeymoon in the lobby. So there's your marriage advice.

[Dave Ramsey]

They're going, oh, God.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Oh, God, no, no, no.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't think they're that way. I know, I know. I can already tell they're not that way.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

I just.

[Dave Ramsey]

You could tell just taking one picture with.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Well, what it is, though, is, and we say it on the show all the time, majority of relational calls that we get is. Is rarely. Well, rarely about the money. So she calls in and says, well, he says, I can't have any say and that my. What did she say her privilege was? Electricity and food or what?

[Dave Ramsey]

That was her luxury.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Oh, my God. So, like, you get food, but I need money is how it's presented. But it's like, no, dear God, you need a new marriage. Like, it's a. It's a marriage issue. So whenever those things start bubbling up, majority of the time with couples, and I would say in our marriage, probably with you and mom, too, like when there's a money thing that flares up, usually a deeper rooted thing is something is happening.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, money problems. Money problems are not the problem. They're the symptom. And that's the case here too. There's a power struggle going on here and you've been losing the power struggle. If you were gone tomorrow, would your family know where your important stuff is? That's where Knockbox comes in. The things you've done to protect your family, like term life insurance, a will and a security system, aren't much help if your loved ones can't access them. Knockbox, N o K as in next of kin box, is a simple physical system that holds all your important documents, account info, passwords, policies and plans in one place so your family isn't left digging for them. Knockbox helps your family breathe in the middle of heartbreak and say, okay, we know what to do next. Love your family well by leaving them clarity, not chaos. Go to knockbox.com Ramsey to get started. That's n o k box.com Ramsey if you're tired of living paycheck to paycheck and feeling like you can't get ahead, join one of our Free Every Dollar trainings. There's new trainings every month. This every week this month and they're all hosted by one of the Ramsey personalities. Rachel Cruz or George Camel or Jade Warshaw will be in there helping you out. Gonna show you how to stick to a budget and find thousands of dollars worth of margin using every dollar. So you not only get out of debt, but you start building wealth and you can ask any question during the live Q. And a lot easier to get a question in there than it is on the show. Hard to get on here. We sorry for that but there's only four lines. We can only get so many people and it's a lot of busy signals when you call here. But you can get in there. Sign up for free at ramseysolutions.com webinar free every dollar trainings with the Ramsey personalities. Dylan's in San Francisco. Hi Dylan, how are you?

[Caller]

I'm doing great. I'm excited to be on the show.

[Dave Ramsey]

Thank you sir.

[Caller]

So my question is my wife and I have a bunch of debt, about $2.3 million worth of debt, but it's all really low interest rate debt and I'm wondering if we should be trying to pay it off as quickly as possible or since we can make more in high yield savings or in the market, should we sort of take our time in paying off this debt?

[Dave Ramsey]

What is it owed on so 2.

[Caller]

Million on the primary residence at 2.4% on a 30 year fixed. We have a rental residence which has about A quarter million at 3% 80,000 in student loans at 1.6% and then a car loan of about 40,000 at 4%.

[Dave Ramsey]

And what's your household income?

[Caller]

About 1.5 million, but that's new.

[Dave Ramsey]

Congratulations.

[Caller]

Gone up a lot.

[Dave Ramsey]

Way to go, man.

[Caller]

Gone up a lot.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're doing wonderful. What do you do for a living?

[Caller]

I'm a lawyer, as is my wife.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, good. Well, here's the thing.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Well, real quick, Dylan, do you love it? Do you love having 2.5 million? Like, are you good?

[Caller]

I'm okay with it. So our, our, our net worth is like 5.2. So I feel like it's, it's manageable. I want to have no debt, but part of me feels like it's kind of backwards to pay down 2 1/2% debt when you could earn 4% in the savings account.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, all right. It's a good question. Valid question. All right, so here's the thing. The thing that we forget, that no one talks about and no one teaches is debt equals more equals risk. More debt equals more risk. Huge amounts of debt equals huge amounts of risk. Huge amounts of debt as a percentage of your net worth equals huge amounts of risk. Let me illustrate, okay? You said you had a $5 million net worth. What if you had a five and a half million dollars worth of debt at 1%, you would feel that risk instantly because your net worth is not enough to cover. You have negative net worth. You follow me?

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so even though the interest rate was great, you felt the risk increase when I just gave you the example, didn't you?

[Caller]

I did. That would stress me out.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And so that illustrates accurately that debt equals risk because you can literally feel it in your physical body. And you didn't even do it. You just talked about it and your body started going, ugh. You know, and so that's. Your risk meter is measuring that you're feeling that. So what is left out of your calculation of I can borrow this money at 2% and I can invest it at 4, I'm making a 2% spread or a 2.5% spread or whatever it is. What's left out of that is you've not calculated mathematically for the risk.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And there is actually formulas to do that in graduate level finance. If you're comparing a risky mutual fund with a not so risky mutual fund, we measure the volatility of the fund with a statistical measure of the height and distance to the valley of the. You think the wavy line that represents the returns, you know what I'm talking about. If it's a real tall wavy line and a real steep wavy line, that's a risky one, you know what I'm saying? Versus a real smooth one would not be risky. The measure of that mathematically is called a beta in statistics. And you can actually use a beta to adjust the two, to adjust the high risk versus the low risk mutual fund and compare them apples to apples. The reason I'm bringing all that up is there's actually, it's actually a thing until you talk about debt. And nobody does it with debt except me. And we started doing it with debt a long time ago to say more debt equals more risk. And so you would divide your supposed spread out by the extra risk you're taking using a thing called a beta. And you would see that there's actually no perceived value after adjusted for risk. And so you're kidding yourself mathematically is the point. You're not really making the spread because the math formula that you're using is naive. It left out the risk. So you're not being a simpleton at all when you pay off the debt. On the contrary, you're very sophisticated when you choose to pay off the debt, making this wonderful income you guys have just found yourself in. And you're extremely successful lawyers. Thank you. I'm so glad for you. I'm happy for you. I want you to win. So the other thing you ask yourself is if you extrapolate these things out way into the future, where do you want to be? You're how old? 29. Maybe?

[Caller]

I'm 48.

[Dave Ramsey]

48, okay. Wow. Okay.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

You sound youthful, Dylan.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right, well, so when you're 68, when you're 68, do you want a 50 million dollar net worth with a 25 million dollar debt load?

[Caller]

All I want is.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, I mean, do you, I mean if you. I don't want to extrapolate this out because I don't want to 10x this if I'm you. And if you don't stop it, you're gonna 10x it. And the only reason you would stop it is you decided it's not good. I decided I wanna be free. I decided even though there's a little, I might make a little money, but adjusted for risk, I'm not really over the scope of time making a ton of money and it's not worth it. I can pick and choose my cases differently. I can grow my law career even more exponentially if I have zero things riding around on my should shoulder when I'm making these choices. And so I'm going to encourage you to work toward. I don't think it's an emergency. I don't think you're bankrupt. I don't think you're stupid. I don't think any of that. But it's almost a philosophical discussion in a sense that we're having. It is a math discussion. And the math I pointed out is wrong, but it's not going to cause you harm. You can outearn this level of mistake. It's not that big a deal. But I wouldn't set out to say, as my net worth grows, I'm going to grow my debt. And if I'm not willing to grow my debt as my net worth grows, then must be because I don't think the debt's good. And so since I don't want to 10x it, why would I keep it? Anything that's great. I want a 10x. Anything that's not. I'd love for you to 10x your income. I don't see anything wrong with that. That'd be cool. Wouldn't call you out, wouldn't say you're doing something wrong to do that. And so, yeah, that helps me. But you are hanging out with some very sophisticated people who are not very sophisticated with their mathematics if they're making you feel like a simpleton for paying off your debt, because I just walked you through a fairly sophisticated formula that you probably never heard before. I suspect I told it to a bunch of MBAs in a college thing the other day, and they looked at me like I had invented fire. And so. But the. So that it's, It's. That's how it works. I would pay it off, but I wouldn't be in an. I wouldn't be breaking my back to pay it off. You make a million and a half dollars, have a car payment. It's ludicrous. It's ludicrous.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah. Especially the consumer stuff I get on your studio.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Crazy. I get rid of that. That stupid student loan and that car payment. I pay that off in about the next two months. But we can make the argument about the rental house and the house a little bit more cogently, but you still lose the argument. Counselor.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Session is a term.

[Dave Ramsey]

So proud of you, man. You're just killing it. I'm just so happy for you that you're making all that money because you work so hard to get there.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Well, and the other part, and we talked about this in an earlier call, but the humanity of money, it is not just about the math. There is a level of peace and security and autonomy that you get when you just own everything. I mean, it is. There's just something there. And so that element will not be in a formula or, you know, but it will be at night when you go to sleep and everything's owned and there's just a level of peace and there's not really a price on that. Like there's something there that's very real and you can out chase and out earn the interest rates here and there, whatever. That can be the game you Play. But as Dr. John DeLoney says, solve for peace, have peace in your life. We live too much of a stressful life. You have a stressful job, Dylan. You know, just eliminate some stress, feel free, have autonomy over your life and money and those choices.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yep. I've been helping people get margin back in their budget for over 30 years. And switching your phone plan is one of the easiest wins out there, especially with Boost Mobile. Boost gives you unlimited talk, text and data for just $25 a month. And I'm not talking about some promo rate that goes up later. That $25 price is locked in forever. No contracts, no headaches. And with their 30 day money back guarantee, there's no risk. So stop wasting money. Go to boostmobile.com Ramsey today restrictions apply. See boostmobile.com Ramsey for details. Mike's in California. Hey, Mike, how are you?

[Caller]

I'm doing great. How are you doing?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. How can we help?

[Caller]

Love it. I just have a quick question to cut to the chase. I had to take out a loan that I didn't want to take out because of some damage to a home I just purchased. I have work currently in a lawsuit to get that money back. So do I pay it off Gazelle Intense. The Ramsey way, or do I, since I stand to make this money back, do I use my margin to not miss out on compound growth?

[Dave Ramsey]

No, you pay it off as quick as you can because when you get the money later, you'll have the money later. But until then you'll have the debt whether you win the lawsuit or not.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So we need to get rid of the debt and they're independent of each other. Having the debt doesn't make you have a stronger case for the lawsuit. The lawsuit will be answered on its merits, only.

[Caller]

Heard.

[Dave Ramsey]

So, yeah, I'd be. I'd be done with it. I'd be done with that debt as fast as I possibly could. I'm sorry you're going through that though. That's a really. There's Nothing worse than a home being broken. Except a home being broken and a lawsuit. These are two of the worst things you can go through. It's just awful. I'm so sorry. Wow. Wow. Josh is in Illinois. Hey, Josh. What's up?

[Caller]

Hey. How's it going?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. How can we help?

[Caller]

All right, so I had a quick question. So I live with my two younger brothers, and one of them works full time, and he, you know, fully does his part, and another one works just barely enough to just barely cover his part of bills.

[Dave Ramsey]

How old are these?

[Caller]

So the one that's barely working is 20, and the one that is working is 23.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you're how old?

[Caller]

25.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so you have one lame roommate, one good roommate, both of which happen to be brothers?

[Caller]

Yes, my brothers, unfortunately. All right, so I am currently working on paying off the last bit of debt that I have. And I was considering moving out at the beginning of next year, but I have this, like, weird sense of, like, guilt if they're gonna be able to survive, because the one brother would probably end up still staying with the younger brother, and the younger brother, I don't know if that he's gonna be able to drag his weight. So I feel like I kind of have to stay. And I was also thinking of staying anyways because I'm still working on paying off a car that I purchased a couple years ago.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

What's the motivation to move out? Just because of the financial craziness?

[Caller]

Partially. But also, I have a girlfriend of two and a half years, and sometime within the next two years, I want to. Within the next year or two, I want to propose and get married and then, you know, of course, live with her.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Okay. Where would you. Would you just go rent somewhere else? Is that what you were thinking in the meantime?

[Caller]

Yeah, most. Most likely.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Do you think you can find something cheaper?

[Caller]

Cheaper? I doubt it.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

What do you make?

[Caller]

I make 57,000 a year.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. Okay. You make the decisions, and you give them enough notice, and you make the decisions based on what is the right thing to do. Propping up someone who will not work is not ever the right thing to do. That's enabling misbehavior. Okay. And so, you know, you can love someone who misbehaves, but you don't have to love their misbehavior. Okay. You can love your little brother, but you don't have to love his laziness. Right. And so I would just tell them, hey, guys, this worked for a while. We were a couple of we're three young guys coming out of the house. We did it together, it worked for a while. And I'm ready. Because of this dating relationship, I'm going to start talking about moving out. And I'm giving you like four, five months notice here that that's what's going to happen. And so you guys need to start making plans to be able to move somewhere else or to make up the difference with me being gone or to find another roommate to replace me or whatever it is y' all want to do. But then what they choose to do with that knowledge is on them, not you. So that removes all guilt. Okay. All I can do is present to someone what the situation is. How they react to it is their decision.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Now, Josh, there's not a contract that you guys signed that you'd be breaking in anyway, right?

[Caller]

No. Our lease ends in, I believe, the beginning of February, so.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Okay. Is that when you would move out then?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Okay, that's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I would tell your brothers, I tell your brothers over dinner, and then I would tell. And then I would send an email to the landlord and copy your brothers that I'm making plans to leave in February. My brothers will let you know what their plans are, but I will not be here after the lease expires. I want to let everybody know that and give everybody plenty of notice. The landlord knows what's going on, but that also gives your brothers a little shock to the system. It's like, eh, this is really happening.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And talk to them in person first.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Don't send an email. That's why I said have dinner with them. Have dinner with them and tell them what's going on. Okay.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Check their Gmail. And they're like.

[Dave Ramsey]

And listen, Josh, don't make this about them. This is just what you're doing. Yeah, this is what I'm doing. I just want to let you know what I'm doing. I love you guys and it was fun for a while, and now I'm gonna go do this. And you know that that's. It's not. It's not a. It's not you, it's me. And so, you know. Right.

[Caller]

So when it comes to, you know, making this about me, I was considering staying with them because I currently have about $23,000 in debt. It's a car loan or sell it. I've. See, I've looked into that and I got it back in 2022 when it stuff was super expensive. Kelly Blue Book puts it at. At most I'm thinking maybe 9,300.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, well, you're pretty stuck. You probably need some extra jobs. I'd work my tail off and get.

[Caller]

Some extra jobs this weekend.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah. Just have at it and tear into that thing. But I don't think that's a reason to stay. I think you can pay off that car or get rid of the car problem, whatever it is you. It, whether you're there or not.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah, but I also heard him say the little brother is paying. He's barely making the bills is what he said, but he's doing it. So if it's a situation where you have cheap rent and it's not, like, affecting the real. I don't know. I don't know if there's, like, a reason to. To get out now. If he stops paying and then you have to pick up his slack, then that's. That's one issue.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's what's happening. We don't exit if everybody's bill's been paid. He's not. That's. He's. He's. It's time to go, man. It's time to go. Time to go. Open phones at Triple 882-55-5225. You gotta be real careful with the. Here's the thing. I've learned it the hard way on the show, answering these questions for 30 years and also in my personal life, that the better angels in all of us, the nicer parts of all of us, all have the ability to enable. We all have the ability to want to make everything okay for someone else. And sometimes we want it more for them than they do. And that's when enabling happens. Enabling is never good. Enablers are always. When I'm talking to one, they're always the nicest people. They're just the sweetest people. They just want everybody to be happy and they're just helpful. But they took their sweetness to a toxic level and ended up giving a drunk a drink. Yeah, the drunk's really happy. But you just gave a drunk a drink. You just said, hey, here's some Jack Daniels, buddy. And, you know, I mean. And so if you're covering for your little brother who's not working much.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Well, I agree. If he wasn't paying the bills. But he said at the beginning of the call, though, his wording was. Which I listened. The wording was, okay, he's barely making his bills, but he's make.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, yeah, but. But we know probably, yes, there will be a time pattern. Is there.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

That's fair.

[Dave Ramsey]

Fair that there's going to be a problem. I can.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Would you pay an extra 500 in rent somewhere? Like would you up the rent to move out?

[Dave Ramsey]

It's going to have to of some kind. But I think he's got to get in a functional situation if he wants to enter a functional relationship with a young lady. Yeah. Instead of hanging on back here cleaning up behind him all the time. And so there's some gain there. Yeah. And I think it's going to be the best thing for the person that you're enabling is when you stop. It's really good for them. It's like I love you too much to participate in your crazy. I am no longer signing up for the trip to crazy land. You taking a trip by yourself and you just got it. You got to talk this through, man. And just go, I love you and no way. No, no, you go do that stuff by yourself. I don't do that and I'm not going to help you do it and I'm not going to finance it while you do it. Child of mine, parent of mine, uncle of mine, little brother of mine, whatever it.

[Caller]

Foreign.

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[Dave Ramsey]

Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fair Winds Credit Union studio. I'm Dave Ramsey. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey host, Ramsey, personality number one best selling author is my co host. Today Robert is in Florida. Hey Robert, how are you?

[Caller]

I'm doing well. How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Caller]

I am calling because my wife and I recently went to Montana for a couple weeks. First time we've ever really experienced the country other than the east coast. And we're close to retirement and now we're considering buying a motor coach and spending two years, you know, we're still having a home base, but two years going on long trips and seeing national parks and, you know, it's just something that's in our gut that we want to do. But I know how you feel about things with motors and wheels and, you know, things of that nature. So considering our net worth, do you think, you know, we should do this, or do you think we've lost our minds?

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, what's your net worth?

[Caller]

Right around 3 million.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right, so what would you spend for the bus?

[Caller]

Probably 200,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so there's a couple ways. A couple of ways to look at it. One is you say, okay, when you just did this other trip, did you take a coach or did you just drive the car?

[Caller]

No, no, no. We flew out there and we bounced around. You know, we went to Glacier national and a couple other, you know, beautiful places.

[Dave Ramsey]

Beautiful. Yeah. That's cool. Good. Good trip. Okay, so the answer is, yes, you can afford it. Okay. And the way I determine that is this. I use the burn the money in the middle of the floor analogy. Okay? So If I take $200,000 and I burn it in the middle of the floor, or I throw it out the window of the car on the interstate just to watch the traffic swerve, okay, does that change my life if I have $3 million? No.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

So if this is the worst possible decision ever, your life is still. Okay. So the answer is, yes, you can afford it. But then I'll give you some suggestions on things that Sharon and I have experienced. A correlation might be a second home. Okay, you go. We have friends that go to the beach, and while they're staying at the beach, they go. I've always wanted a house on the beach, a condo on the beach, okay? And it sparks their interest, just like yours is sparked on this. They've never had a house that was a second home, and they've never lived on the beach. They stayed there two weeks. So what I suggest to them is before you spend $2 million on a beach house, why don't you just go rent1 for 5 months and live there and see if it's all it's cut out to be? They came home and didn't like it, and we're glad they didn't purchase. So the correlation here might be, why don't you rent a motor coach for a month, in for 20 grand? For 20 grand, and let's burn 20 grand up before we burn 200 grand up and make sure it's as much as romantic and as much of A thing as you think it is. It might be and it might not be. You might be. I prefer to fly in private charter and rent an SUV than I do drive with all these yahoos. You might decide that.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And by about the same amount of money, by the way.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

There you go.

[Caller]

I know it's. I know I'm not gonna come out of this, you know, on top as far as money.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, you're gonna lose the money.

[Caller]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, absolutely.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

This is gonna what y' all enjoy. Robert. So one couple doesn't like the beach. Well, we know plenty of couples that do and have a house.

[Dave Ramsey]

Go try it, and if they had liked it, then buy the house, right? Yeah. If you like the motor coach after renting it for a month, go do that. But I mean, the number of guys that buy a motorcycle and it sits in the garage, 24, 7. And they drive it twice a year. And they thought they were going to go on all these trips and stuff is a bunch. And you could have rented a stupid motorcycle for the weekend and had the best motorcycle on the planet and gone and done rode through the fall leaves or whatever it is you want to do. Right? It's okay. Go do that stuff. But I'm just saying try it before you buy it is what I would do. I'd invest a little bit of money in that. Sharon and I actually did that on a second home area that we did. We rented a home for 30 days and looked at other homes in the neighborhood while we were there, and we loved it and ended up buying a second home in that neighborhood. And but we, by that time, we had been there 30 days. We knew everything about all the ups down, sideways. We knew how bad it. And so, yeah, when you own another vehicle, you got one more thing that breaks all the time.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

I was going to say that's the other thing is the mate.

[Dave Ramsey]

It just breaks all the time. And you got insurance. It's just the more crap you own, the more repairmen you have to know. Houses, cars, all that stuff.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

More money, more problems.

[Dave Ramsey]

More money, mo problems. That's it? Yeah, that's it. So, I mean, I want you to try it out. I want you to go do it. You can afford it, is the answer to your question. But before you turn this one weekend trip into this $200,000 decision, I would baby step into it. No pun intended.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

That's exciting. Robert.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

From the way you were talking, I think you and your wife, I think this will be the retirement.

[Dave Ramsey]

I think they're gonna like it.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

I Think they'll like it? Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

There you go. There you go. That's the thing. So now if. Well, Mark is Mark. I'm just. I'm not going. Raleigh, North Carolina. Hey, Mark.

[Caller]

Hey there. Thanks for taking my call.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure, man. What's up?

[Caller]

So I'm at this crossroads. I'm 57 years old. I've been trying to do the baby steps. I'm all out of whack as far as the order, I'm sure. But sort of where I find myself is I'm looking at potentially changing a little bit for me in the next, say by the end of the year or me changing myself. So basically where I am financially, I'm trying to figure out. I think I know the answer is I've got about 310,000 saved. Oh, about 240 on my house. I have about 450 in our IRA. And I was debating on should I try to play catch up a little bit before this potential change happens as far as my income or should I just pay the house off and be done with that? Pay the house off and move on.

[Dave Ramsey]

I pay the house off by nightfall. I wouldn't have that money in the bank and have a mortgage. You borrowed on your home to have money in the bank, right? Yeah. Net. Net.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what are you talking about, Shane? You're going to make less income?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Why?

[Caller]

Like right now, between my wife and I. I'm sorry, why? Just potential work downturn in work right now.

[Dave Ramsey]

What field are you?

[Caller]

I mean. Advertising.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Caller]

So I'm. And the other thing is, I'm also looking at as I may want to just change my life as well. In other words, not pursuing that, but try to do something that has a little bit more impact and gives back a little bit more. So I'd be maybe talking about just a life change in general versus pursuing that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, well, you would be a lot more free to do that if you didn't have a house payment.

[Caller]

I mean, that's kind of what I was thinking.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. You read Halftime by Buford? I'm sorry, have you read a book called Halftime by Bob Buford?

[Caller]

No, I have not.

[Dave Ramsey]

You got to pick it up and read it. You're describing it.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

The second part part of your life.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, it's the. Yeah. First half back half, particularly with males. They spend the first half of our life in acquisition, the second half searching for significance.

[Caller]

That's sort of where I'm at. I've done a lot of things to help a lot of people in advertising world pursue what they wanted to do. And now I'm sort of like, I don't feel like I've given back as much as I'd like to give back and actually make an impact, you know what I mean, on things in a positive way.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I agree. I think that's cool. I think it's good. And you need to pursue those issues and take them to ground, either whether you do it inside your career or with a separate career. Either one's fine with me. Yeah, Pick that book up. You'll like it. It's called Halftime by Bob Buford. It's a really. It's an old book, but it's a great.

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[Dave Ramsey]

You know, we hear it all the time. A car accident, a cancer diagnosis, a heart attack, and suddenly everything changes. Yeah.

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[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, that's right. You need 10 to 12 times your income in coverage. No gimmicks, no whole life junk, just straightforward term life protection. But there's another piece that people often overlook, and that's long term disability insurance. Yeah.

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[Dave Ramsey]

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[Dave Ramsey]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Protect yourself, protect your income, protect your family. Michelle is in Florida. Hi, Michelle, how are you?

[Caller]

I'm doing all right. How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

All better than we deserve. What's up?

[Caller]

So I'm calling for your advice today. I lost my husband about six months ago.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm sorry.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Dave Ramsey]

How long were you married?

[Caller]

Almost 30 years.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow. Okay.

[Caller]

So he was just like a couple years. We could have retired, but he wanted to work for a couple more years. And we have two homes. They're both paid for. One is in Florida and one is in Utah. And our plan initially was to go back and forth between a home, but now that he's passed, I'm just. I'm calling to kind of like, what would Dave do financially? I'm just wondering if you think it would be better if I sold one of the homes or both the homes or. And, you know, diversify and invest that money or in the long run, what would be best financially for me?

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I mean, why would you keep both of them?

[Caller]

Well, I was thinking that mostly for investment, like, one I would live in and then the other.

[Dave Ramsey]

So where are you planning to live?

[Caller]

I'm not. I'm not sure yet. I kind of vacillate. I would like to go out to Utah, I think, but my job is here in Florida.

Florida.

My friends are here in Florida.

In Utah.

I do, but they're grown. The last one launched this year.

[Dave Ramsey]

Where are they?

[Caller]

Three of them are in California and one is in Georgia.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Do you have grandkids?

[Caller]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Caller]

Not yet.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. But the potential would be California, it sounds like, mainly. Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right. So you're. You're how old?

[Caller]

I'm 55.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And your life is currently centered in Florida?

[Caller]

It is.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what would. What's the draw to Utah again?

[Caller]

I just like it out west. Mountains.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And they're both paid for. Did he have life insurance? Michelle?

[Caller]

He. He did. He. I mean, honestly, he left me in a really, really good situation.

I have choices.

So I have about, you know, I have over a million in, like, Roth IRA and 401k, and I have about 600,000 just sitting in a high yield savings account right now that I'm trying.

To figure out what to do with.

[Dave Ramsey]

I would only want to own a home where I'm going to do life. Unless I was going to actively use something as a second home. And I don't. I like the mountains as not. I actively use Utah as a second home. Is this like Park City or.

[Caller]

It'S south of. No, it's south of Salt Lake in the mountains.

[Dave Ramsey]

Or is it just in a suburbs?

[Caller]

It's in the Wasatch. It's in the suburbs. It's in the, like the Wasatch Valley area.

[Dave Ramsey]

Like I have my house, but it's a beautiful area. Okay. Yeah. Another way to ask this sometimes as I reverse engineer it in my own head, would I do it if I. If I didn't have a house in Utah today and I'm a six month widowed and I've got my life centered in Florida. I like Utah and I like the mountains. Would I go buy a house there or would I just go up there and stay some. I don't hear house in this.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

I hear visits.

[Caller]

Yes, it is visits right now because.

We were both still working.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And you're still working. I mean, you're not shutting your life down in Florida?

[Caller]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I guess you could. You probably have enough money to retire, but you're probably not going to go to Utah where you don't have any connections and sit around all day.

[Caller]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's weird. That would be lonely.

[Caller]

I guess I was wondering because my house is worth so much more here in Florida and I thought maybe that wasn't wise either.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, I think you're fine. What's it worth? What's the one in Florida worth?

[Caller]

Worth about 1.5 or 1.6.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's not.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's still. It's still not.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And it's paid for.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's paid for.

[Caller]

It is.

[Dave Ramsey]

And the house. Yeah. I don't think you're going to get the incremental joy and use out of the Utah house with him in heaven that you were going to have before. But I do think you still love the mountains and you'll probably go up there and visit some and do some vacationing there, but you're probably not gonna. And you don't want to rent it. That would be a horrible idea.

[Caller]

Oh, okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Renting something halfway across the country is really. You would never say. You never say, I'm sitting in Florida and I'm gonna go buy a rental house in Utah. That just. That wouldn't be logical. You would want to buy a rental house in the area where you are, if you want to own real estate. But I mean, there's no rush. As you said, you've been left in a wonderful condition. And if you want to take some time and pray about it. It's only six months. You can take some more time if you want. I would not rent it. I would only keep it if you feel like you're going to get enough use of it to justify owning it and maintaining it and paying the insurance and the taxes which is probably going to be 100,000 plus a year. Utilities, maintenance, taxes, property taxes and so forth. And, you know, making sure everything's taken care of just for it to sit there, to be there when you want to go visit. And I really think you could go, you know, to the Montage at Deer Valley and stay for a long time for 100 grand.

[Caller]

Right. That makes sense. You know, that's why I called you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And I. But. But I also. I'm fine with 30 years of marriage and your life just got changed. And if you take a minute and cry and think about it, I'm okay with that, too.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

But please don't rent it. Please don't rent it. You'll hurt your own feelings if you rent it because your dream is going to have renters living in it. Your old dream, that's dead now, and it's going to have renters. You're not going to like that emotionally. Don't do that. Don't do that to yourself. So sell the house before you rent it. But I think you're gonna. I think you're gonna sell it and you're gonna enjoy the money in other ways, doing some other stuff.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah. Put it towards the travel end of it versus owning it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Yeah. You can just. You can move about the country, as the commercial says. Yeah. Yeah. That's. Wow.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

I'm sorry, Michelle, though. That's hard.

[Dave Ramsey]

It changes everything.

[Caller]

Well.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And it's probably a level of letting go of kind of what you said of. Of what the dream that was. Yeah. What's supposed to be. So there's like a little bit of that grief.

[Dave Ramsey]

It wasn't supposed to be this way. We were supposed to finish, get to go to Utah, you know, and it'll.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Be a sad selling for sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, it's.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And it's not even from like a touristy standpoint, you know what I mean? Like, you wouldn't even want a vrbo. Like, not even like long term or short term rentals.

[Dave Ramsey]

No.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

You cringe.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

No, that's verbo, I think.

[Dave Ramsey]

I know, but we're talking about. We're talking about serious amount of maintenance now. You're now running a hotel. That's different than renters. That's another step up of. Yeah, that's. Oh, man, now you're buying sheets. Yeah, this is. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. All right. Dean is in Pittsburgh. Hey, Dean, what's up?

[Caller]

Hey, Dave. How are you doing?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. How can we help?

[Caller]

So I got myself in kind of A bad situation here. I had an ex fiance and I co signed a car refinance when we were going to get married. She had over a 25% APR on her car. She was drowning in the amount of interest she was paying. So I co signed it, got it down to a 7% five year loan and suddenly she stopped paying for it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Shocking.

[Caller]

She is. Yeah. She's not. Not being cooperative with me or the bank.

[Dave Ramsey]

So wait a minute. Do you. You don't have any ownership on the car, right? Right.

[Caller]

None at all? None at all, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. How much is, how much is owed on this car that she's going to get repoed on you?

[Caller]

About $7,000. And it's a 2013 TSO. It's probably not worth more than a thousand and I think they'd be very lucky to get 500.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. I got really bad news, dude. You can't. The, the amount of money is not worth suing her over. Over. You're going to lose some money here after they repo it and you're going to get your credit tagged after they repo it. And you're going to end up writing the bank a check for three or four thousand dollars to get your name out of this mess before it's over. You could start on that now if you wanted to, offering them three or four thousand to release you and let them go after her. But good luck with all that. When I do something stupid and it costs me money, man, I call it stupid tax. So when you write this check in the 4 column, write stupid tax. Guys. If you like what you're hearing around here, please click the share button, the follow button, the subscribe button. Let people know we're here. Tell people about the show, Spread the word for spread the love. You are our marketing plan. We appreciate it, guys. If you died tomorrow, how would your family keep the lights on? How would they pay the mortgage? How would they afford groceries? If anyone in your life depends on your income, you need life insurance. But how do you choose from all the options that are out there? Well, it's actually pretty simple. Life insurance is one job replace your income. And term life insurance is the only kind that does only that. The others, like whole life or permanent life, try to add in investing and they dumb down the insurance part and they raise the cost really high. You only need life insurance while someone depends on you financially. So if you're like most people, you need a policy worth 10 to 12 times your income for a term of 15 to 20 years and it should be a level term policy, meaning the premium stays the same. For more info and resources, use our free term life insurance guide. Go to ramseysolutions.com termlifeguide or click the link in the description and we'll help you out. Josh is in Pennsylvania. Hey Josh, how are you?

[Caller]

Good. How are you guys?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Caller]

So I'm calling in. We had $90,000 of debt. We have paid it down. We only have 28,000 left. And we have about 20,000 in crypto that I've had for years that has just kind of sat there like everybody else has. I'm just wondering, should I liquidate that to just get through baby step two here and just finalize everything?

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yes, simple answer.

[Dave Ramsey]

Anything that you had money in that was not retirement, we would tell you to liquidate it and clear your debt.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And focus very intensely on your debt. Because when your debt is cleared up, you then have control of your most powerful wealth building tool, which is not investments, it's actually your income. And when your income's all going out in debt payments, you've limited your ability to build wealth.

[Caller]

Correct. I mean, look, followed you guys religiously for a while.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, not too religiously. You've got $20,000 in crypto. So you weren't real religious about it. But, but the, I mean, semi. I mean, you went to church on Easter, but that was it. And so, but that. So anyway, the. Anyway, the thing is, yeah, if you had the money in Apple stock, if you had the money in mutual funds, if you had the money in a money market account, if you had the money in a shoebox under your bed, we would tell you the exact same thing to liquidate it and put and pay off your debt as fast as possible. It just gives us a little bit more joy when it's something as stupid as crypto to tell you to do it. So. Yeah, but definitely go do that for sure.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

When is a world that Dave Ramsey would ever buy crypto?

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't gamble much.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

If it ever became a proven investment for you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, it's not going to be a proven investment because it's a commodity and commodities are never a proven investment. That's a problem. Commodities like gold or oil. I don't buy barrels of oil either.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because blockchain. Exactly. And I don't buy blockchain. And so I don't buy crypto. So it's a currency. I don't buy the yen and I don't buy the deutsche mark. You can invest in the deutsche mark or the yen, they're a proven currency. You could look at the track record and see what. What the. How that is done versus the USD. Right. Or the euro. I mean, you could.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

You could.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's a currency. It's cryptocurrency.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so a digital currency, so you could, you know. But I don't invest in currency, so crypto's no exception. It's just the least appealing because it has the least track record of all of them today. Someday, though, it could have a long track record and it could be very much more legitimate than it is now. Right now, it's just all the cool kids doing stupid stuff. And it's just. It's maddening because people are using up their wealth, building power that they could have actually become wealthy. And they get screwed over trying to be cool because it's very faddish. It's as dumb as Beanie Babies or. Well, you know. Really. I mean, people were buying Beanie Babies. I've had people call me on the show in the old days.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Your wife?

[Dave Ramsey]

My wife. No, no, no. She bought Beanie Babies like crazy, but she never once said it was your college fund.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Oh, true. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I had people put their K fund in Beanie Babies.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

The Princess Diana bear. We had a special.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Can you tell me one that is sold? I got one. The dog carries it around. But I don't yet know one that is sold. I know they supposedly sold for $10,000, but I've never seen one. They're for sale on ebay, but no one's ever bought one. So anyway, it's hilarious. I mean, you know, we had. You were. You were a baby, and there was a thing that went around. People decided they were going to. Instead of investing in cattle and pigs, they were going to buy emus because emu meat was somewhat like ostrich meat. And we had emu. We had friends that bought farms and bought emus. I mean, this is the same. It's the same category for me as crypto. I mean, it's just the same. It's just a fad and Beanie Babies. And so it's just. Because it's just something everybody's into and all the cool kids are talking about, and it's dumber than crap. And it's just, you know, people are just doing it en masse. And so. Because they're losing their butts. They really are. And so.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Well, the amount of. What's wild to me is the amount of scams and the amount of scams within it. And the amount of things people have lost. I mean, so much money people have lost in it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I mean, the other day we took a call. Jade and I caught a catfish. I mean, Jade caught the catfish. The guy was catfishing this girl from Russia. She had never met him and her boyfriend was crypto in Russia. Wanted her to cash out her 401k and put it into crypto with him. She'd never met him physically. It was a complete romance scam over the Internet, but they're using crypto to do it, so. Oh my God. I mean that stuff's everywhere. We're getting that stuff in here by the tidal waves into our offices by email. Help us with this. Help? We're not the FBI. We can't help you with this. It's just. Try not doing stupid stuff. That'll help. It's just. Oh my gosh. Wow. It was so sad too. It's the first time maybe she ever realized that she didn't have a real boyfriend was when Jade told her. It was awful. It was just devastating.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Why? We all need friends.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, right. People need people. John is in Louisiana. Hey, John, what's up?

[Caller]

Hey, how's it going guys?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than we deserve. How can we help?

[Caller]

That's good. It's good. Hey, got a blessing brought on us. My parents are gifting us their modular home and about three acres of land on their property. And I guess really I have a few questions, but my first one is should we use the money that we receive from selling our current home to remodel and upgrade the place that we're receiving or should I pay off some debt with that money?

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so many questions. How much debt do you have?

[Caller]

Once my house is sold, my current home, I would have about 60,000, 60 to 65,000 in vehicles. That is it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so and, but I mean you're getting money from your current home, right?

[Caller]

Yes, yes, I owe 140. We should sell around 190 to 210 somewhere in there.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you have other debt that you would use that money for. You're asking whether to pay the cars off with that?

[Caller]

Yeah. Should I pay the cars off with it or should I fix up the home?

[Dave Ramsey]

Because you should pay the cars off or you should sell them. What, what do you, what do you make? What's your household income?

[Caller]

Together we make. We bring home 77,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. You don't need $65,000 worth of cars. Her hun. You're going to be broke your whole life.

[Caller]

Right?

[Dave Ramsey]

You got too much. You Got too much tied up in cars.

[Caller]

Okay. Yeah. We do have a little plan with the no house payment. Obviously we plan to pay both vehicles off in two years.

[Dave Ramsey]

It doesn't matter. You still got $65,000. You're going to turn into 10,000 and you don't make enough money to do that. You've got too much of your life invested in things going down in value rapidly, whether it has debt or not.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah, John, we would say anything with motors and wheels. It should be half your annual income. So you guys should have closer to like 30, $35,000 max.

[Dave Ramsey]

Your cars are killing you.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

You owe almost as much on your cars as you do your house.

[Caller]

Wow. Yeah, it's about half.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yes, I know, it's devastating. Okay, that's first part, second part mod, second part modular house. Help me with that. Is this a trailer?

[Caller]

Modular. The difference between. The difference between a modular home. I got a definition pulled up. Modular home and manufactured homes. The modular homes are factory built homes that are essentially the same as traditional homes once assembled. So pretty much they're made.

[Dave Ramsey]

If I walk up to it, I can't tell that it wasn't stick built.

[Caller]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so there's wall sections put together, but. And they came on a truck. But. And that's modular. That's the proper definition. But I can't tell that this house, it doesn't remind me of a trailer. It reminds me of a house.

[Caller]

Yes, it reminds you of a shotgun style house.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, then you can fix that one up. That's fine. But if you can tell if it looks like a trailer, it's a trailer. Natasha is in California. Hi, Natasha, how are you?

[Caller]

Oh, I'm doing great, Dave, how are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Caller]

Yes, my husband and I have a little bit of debt, but we also have savings. And so I was wondering if it'd be a good idea to take from our savings to pay down our debt.

[Dave Ramsey]

How much savings? How much debt?

[Caller]

So total savings is 75,000. 45 and just a regular savings account. 30 in a separate IRA or simple IRA.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, so part of this is retirement money. Okay.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right, so 35 and say it again.

[Caller]

45 and savings.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, and how much debt?

[Caller]

And then 65,000 total on what? One is a business vehicle and one is business credit card and a consumer.

Credit card from our personal.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. They're all consumer by the way, because the business was not loaned any money. It doesn't have any money. You signed them personally?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

You qualified them as business. No one Else did.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Just to help you. The law doesn't see it that way. In other words, the bank doesn't see it that way. They didn't loan that business any money. It doesn't have any money money. So, yeah. So is that your husband's work truck?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's he do for a living?

[Caller]

We own a film production company and an event production, so it hauls all our equipment.

[Dave Ramsey]

Gotcha. Okay.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

How's the business doing? Is it making money?

[Caller]

Well, yes. Yes, we make money.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good, good. Congratulations.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right, well, what we teach folks in the business, you should be holding back some of your profits in the business account for retained earnings, which is a savings inside the business to cover the ebb and flow of business and cash flow. Okay.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you ought to be keeping some cash over there to cover different bills that come in before the customers pay their bills. Okay. Payables versus receivables, cash flow. And probably even for some growth, if you wanted to buy some equipment or things like that, you'd have a little cash over there. So start setting aside a percentage of your profits in the business to keep there in the business. Then what comes home? We work with to run the household, and that would include paying off all of our debts. What's your household income off of this business? What's the taxable income?

[Caller]

So total taxable income, though, is 184,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

The profit for both of us.

[Caller]

No, that's not. Currently, you only pay taxes on profit. Okay, so. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So then that would be our profit.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so that's.

[Caller]

My husband also has a 9 to 5. Like, he also earns a salary.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, I see. Okay. All right. Yeah. I want to clear these debts whether they're labeled business or whether they're not as fast as possible. So. Yeah. So anyway, on the personal level, what we teach folks is what we call the baby steps. And the first baby steps have only $1,000 saved. Everything above that, that's not retirement. We would throw at the debt. So the answer to your question is, yeah, we would take Most of this 40,000 and throw it at the debt. But in your situation, I probably need to pull some of that 40,000 and set it in the business account to make sure we've got enough to cover the slush.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

I'm talking about, is there any savings in the business right now? Do you have any money set aside?

[Caller]

Not savings. It just sits in the active account.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, but I mean, how much is in there?

[Caller]

Good question About. We roll over maybe about 3 to 4,000amonth or some months are good, some are, you know, it just.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, you need to keep a little in there so that it doesn't drain back out of the house. Okay. And then past that we're going to pay off the debts, smallest to largest. And I'm going to pay the 40,000, all of it. But $1,000 at these debts, it sounds like that's going to clear up everything but the truck and a big bunch of the truck.

[Caller]

Right? Yes. We owe 39 on the track. 39,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And so you've got 16,000 in other debt.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Yeah. Cut up the business credit card. Quit using a business credit card. Make the business cover itself. Debit cards, all you need there. Make it cover itself. It has to cash flow its own deal. It has to create money, not drain money. And so when you sneak off money over on the side on the credit card, it makes you feel like you're doing better in the business than you actually are. And so you got to get rid of that problem from a business management or acumen standpoint. And then. But if we pay that credit card off and cut it up, we pay off 16 out of the 40 and then we start throwing chunks and chunks and chunks at this car. You could be done with this car by Christmas and be 100% debt free and then rebuild your savings. Your emergency fund, a fully funded emergency fund in your personal is three to six months of expenses which in your all's case is probably 30 or $40,000. Again, I want you to get back up to that $40,000 number by this time next year. But you could do that, you could be debt free and be Back to your $40,000 number by this time next year if you've concentrate on it and tighten up your budget really tight.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah. And the fact that you guys have other jobs, I mean he has another full time job too. On top of it.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's a total of $184,000.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Household income of everything.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, that's what she said.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

So it's good. Yeah, you guys can do that.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's, that's reachable there. Megan is in Delaware. Hi Megan, how are you?

[Caller]

I am well. How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Caller]

I'm calling regarding two investment condos that my husband and I own. We've owned them for about 20 years. We have a fiduciary advisor who's advising us to sell them and buy to one or two multi families in a different state where we could possibly or hopefully get more rent. From compared to what we're getting now. And my question to you is, should we do that or should we sell the apartments, just take the equity and get hit. Get the tax hit, but then just have the equity and not have any more investment properties anymore.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Multifamily is very intense to manage because it's multi family. And being in another state is a nightmare as far as I'm concerned. I own several hundred million dollars worth of real estate and I don't own any multifamily in another state.

[Caller]

Yeah, I think that's part of our problem too, is we're overwhelmed. We have kids and we both work full time and we're overwhelmed thinking about.

[Dave Ramsey]

I think this fiduciary advisor is telling you what he wishes he could do, not what you should do.

[Caller]

Yeah, she. She owns a lot of multifamily. How we found her.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you found her because you were looking to do multifamily?

[Caller]

No, we found her because I had. It was hard to find an investment or an advisor who would help us with our real estate because we have so much equity and so much of our wealth is in real estate and in our 401k. Yeah, I wanted somebody who specialized in it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Okay, well, I mean, you got. Yeah, that's a fair assessment. And. But she's going to take you. I mean, you know, when you're a hammer, everything's a nail. Right.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Well, and if you're tired right now, Megan, then that's, that's, that's triple, quadruple tired.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. You're not, you're not getting rid of the tired, Megan.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

We better back on. I wanted to ask her, Megan, how. If you sold. If you sold both of those, how much would you guys net out if you sold your condos and didn't buy multifamily?

[Caller]

So they're worth 1.6 million together, and we own one of them outright, and we have 120,000 left on the mortgage with the other one.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Okay. And what's your. What's in your 401k?

[Caller]

My husband and I together have four and a half million.

[Dave Ramsey]

Way to go. Well, good job.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Well done.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well done.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Proud of you. Yeah. If you don't want to own real estate anymore, then because of the hassle of it, then you don't want to own multifamily in another state.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

If you do want to own real estate, there's. Okay.

[Caller]

I'm so worried down the line because I hear you and so many wealthy people who have a little bit of both And I'm afraid if I sell it then I won't have any more real estate. Is that okay?

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

That's a good question.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's okay if you don't want real estate. I mean I know people that hate the idea of owning real estate because it is a real estate gives you a much greater rate of return than the stock market will but it's also a much greater hassle factor.

[Caller]

It is? Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

You don't have the neighbor, you don't, you don't have a tree fall on the neighbor's yard when you own a mutual fund. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And if you guys are tired, Megan, I would, I mean just, you could sell them and then spend a couple of years just investing. And then if you guys want to get back into real estate, you can.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, go into a type of real estate that's much less intensive. Like you could roll this into a 1031 exchange and go buy some warehouses on triple net. And they're, they don't, they don't take up any mental calories versus multi families. The other end of the spectrum, all mental calories.

[Caller]

Foreign.

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[Dave Ramsey]

Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fair Winds Credit Union studio. Rachel Cruz Ramsey personality number one best selling author. My daughter is my co host. Today Sarah is with us in Detroit. Hi Sarah, how are you?

[Caller]

I'm great. How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Caller]

I am calling. I am recently divorced and the mom of two teenagers and I'm trying to figure out my best path forward with my retirement money. I was never the one in the marriage who focused on this and so in listening to your show I'm really all over the map with my baby steps. But the one thing I do have, I was able to keep my 401k with the divorce.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good.

[Caller]

I have $933,000 in my.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good for you. Not bad for somebody that didn't Know what was going on. You got a million bucks, girl.

[Caller]

I know, I know. I'm 47. I'm a child welfare worker. And with my job with the state, I'm actually able to convert that 401k to a Roth IRA. And I hear that you say on your show that Roth is better than 401k. So I'm trying to determine if that's how much would I be paying. Like, tax implications. Is this smart to do at my age?

[Dave Ramsey]

Are you still working?

[Caller]

I am still working. I can retire in about five years. I don't anticipate retiring in five years, given my income.

[Dave Ramsey]

I would change your current contributions to be Roth only, but that's different than the 933. Anything of the 933 that we move to traditional is going to be taxed.

[Caller]

Now.

[Dave Ramsey]

Now, I'd like for you to do that over time, but in context with a bunch of other things going on. Not just go, hey, let's write a $250,000 check in taxes and move 800,000 over instead of 950. Okay. Or 700,000 instead of 950. Okay. Because that's what it's going to do to you. And I wouldn't do that.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's going to cost you 250 grand in taxes to move this right now, And I wouldn't do that.

[Caller]

Oh, wow.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

So. But I do want you to systematically move it over a number of years in context with everything else you're doing that we've not gotten to yet. Okay? So you've done a great job. Congratulations. You're a millionaire. And from this point forward, you're going to make contributions in the roth. So call HR, change your 401k from this point forward to be Roth contributions. Okay.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Roth 401K.

[Dave Ramsey]

Roth 401K.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Okay. She's asking about a Roth IRA.

[Dave Ramsey]

You have a Roth 401. Is this Roth IRA now?

[Caller]

No, it's not. I have the ability to switch it over to a Roth IRA.

[Dave Ramsey]

No. Yeah, you can switch it to a Roth 401K. You can't switch it to a Roth IRA unless you quit.

[Caller]

Okay, Gotcha. Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

You can't move a 401k while you're currently employed. You could, but you could roll it to the 4 Roth 401k.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

And do the same exact thing. That's what I was talking about.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Do you have a Roth IRA, Sarah, or just a tradition IRA?

[Dave Ramsey]

There's a traditional 401k.

[Caller]

I. I just have the traditional 401k.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Well, she should open a Roth IRA as well.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, that'd be. That wouldn't be a bad thing. Are you debt free now?

[Caller]

So I only have. I'm working on it. I just have final lawyer's fees that I have to pay. But I should hopefully in the next. In the next two months, I should hopefully be done with that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good for you.

[Caller]

But then I do have to save up for my three to six months and it's crushing me to not continue putting Money in my 401k or opening up the Roth.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's okay. Listen, you've been through hell and you need an emergency fund. You're gonna feel better when you got 20 or 30 grand laying around. And then you go Back to your 401k. You're okay. You're not gonna retire with dog food, kid. You got it. You did it. You're a millionaire.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. You're okay.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Dave Ramsey]

The only question now is just how we can maximize it. Not. Not. Are we on. You're not gonna be homeless. I mean, you're good. So we're good shape. So what I will tell you is jump on ramseysolutions.com and click on Smartvestor Pro and find someone in your area. That's the people that we recommend in that world that will sit and spend some long form time with you and catch you up. Because what you are is a smart, intelligent person that does not have this particular information.

[Caller]

Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so you've got a little bit of learning to do, but it's not difficult learning. And the SmartVestor Pros, we will not send people to investment people unless they have the heart of a teacher. Because I want them to teach you. So you're making the decision with the information they give you. Not. My guy told me to.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

I want you to be confident and competent going forward because that creates a sustainable situation.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

But what it's going to look like, like Sarah is pausing at all that retirement right now, not doing anything with it. Pausing it. Getting that cash, say, for your emergency fund. And then what it'll look like in four years probably is that you're going to have a Roth IRA as one account that you're going to be funding. You're going to have a 401k traditionally, and then a Roth. And so you'll. And then slowly moving some of that money.

[Dave Ramsey]

And then I would move some of that traditional to Roth each year without tripping your tax brackets. That's.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

That's right. That's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's what they're going to help you do. And so over a 10 year period of time, you're going to move it all to Roth. But instead of just writing a singular check up front, boom. And taking the hit. I wouldn't do that. I'd move it gradually and let someone help you do the math on that and show you why you're doing it that way. Rachel's exactly right. But yeah, you'll get the lawyer's fees and the emergency fund cleaned up and then you can start your 401k back. But start it back as a Roth and you'll be doing a Roth as individual on the side. And then the last step will be to gradually start moving some of this 933 into Roth inside your 401k unless you leave. And if you leave, you can move it inside of an ira. Either one would be fine. So. Very good. Very good. Wow. She's done great.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

That's great, Sarah.

[Dave Ramsey]

We have talked to several multimillionaires today. An unusual number a lot of people do for one particular day.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

Four million, eight million. Three million. A million with her. Pretty cool.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

That's great.

[Dave Ramsey]

Pretty cool. Folks are doing better out there than a lot of people think folks are doing out there. It turns out the stuff that we're talking about around here works. Some people are doing it without us talking about it because they never heard of us. Some people are doing it because they followed exactly what we told them to do and they become baby steps millionaires. But either one works. I mean, we're just happy. We're happy for you when you succeed and we're going to love you enough to tell you the truth, whatever the situation is and help you get things aligned so that you can succeed in all of these things. And the interesting thing is that we keep coming back to on this show and we have from day one, personal finance is 80% behavior. It's only 20% had knowledge. The mathematical knowledge to become extremely wealthy. You learn by the sixth grade grade in most schools. Okay. Compound interest is multiplication. That's all it is. If you know how to do multiplication, you're ready to go. And then you can add and subtract into a budget until if you're spending more than you make. So it's not about that. It's about controlling the person in your mirror, becoming a person of character, developing only quality relationships and exiting toxic ones ones or redeeming toxic ones, whatever, so that they're no longer affecting the whole process because this whole thing works together. Your spiritual walk, your relational walk, your behavior, the way you take care of your body, the way you treat each other and your family. All of these things enter into whether or not you actually can become financially successful.

[Caller]

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[Caller]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Ramsey Show Question of the day is brought to you by why Refi? You may think no one can help with your defaulted private student loan, but why Refi is different. They work with borrowers in tough spots without judgment. Check them [e-mail] Ramsey that's the letter y r e f y.com Ramsey not available in all states.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Today's question comes from Jill in Michigan. I recently got engaged and we're trying to figure out how we should be splitting the wedding expenses. I understand that you always recommend that married couples combine finances, but what do you do in the stage we're moving from a boyfriend to a girlfriend to engage and planning a wedding when most of the cost will come out of our pockets and not from our parents? Yeah, it's a great question, Jill. I mean I can tell you what Winston, I did. We just opened up a separate checking account completely and put our wedding money in that.

[Dave Ramsey]

The wedding checking account.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah, we called it the wedding checking account and then used debit card, wrote checks and stuff out of that account. So but from the splitting expenses I think you got, I mean however much you bought, both have to spend on the wedding, that's going to be the budget and it may be coming more from him. More from you. I don't know. Whatever you guys decide, the, the total is going to be of what you guys can afford. Yeah, the, the amount percentage wise of who, who comes from who, that doesn't bother me. So if it's a twenty thousand dollar wedding and it's ten and ten, that's great. If it's five and fifteen, that's great. I mean I don't care. But yeah, I would put it in one account and then you guys just use that account as the wedding account. And then once I ended up just migrating all of our money to that account eventually and closed out our other two and that became our joint checking at that point.

[Dave Ramsey]

Post wedding.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Post wedding, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. So yeah, I think the main issue is you sit down and say, okay, with my budget and my debts and my savings, here's what I can contribute to the wedding. And with your budget, your debts and your savings, what can you contribute? And we both come to a number. And it doesn't have to be the same number. I agree with Rachel. But it does need to be laid out ahead of time. So you say, okay, I can put in five and I can put in 15. We've got our 20. Okay. And then you've got. And we both have a clearly aligned goal of. And here's when I'm going to be able to do that, when I sell this car or when I do that. And that's how we're going to be able to fund that. And then that'll help you come up with your wedding. Budget it. And then I'll go a step further beyond the question and tell you. We had in classic Ramsey style, three wonderful fun parties that were weddings that were honoring to God. And we had a blast at all three of them, all three kids. They were absolute fun celebrations. We liked to party. And that was the positive. And the other positive was that all three of them were in huge compliment to all three Ramsey Gen 2s. They laid out a game plan, they put a number on it and then they broke it down line by line what we're going to spend on the wedding. And they stuck to it by and large. And so no one had a little four year old on the cereal aisle meltdown bridezilla fit. And no mother in law's had a bridezilla fit. Like some of these things you see on these reality stuff and all that, this was just like, okay, here's a project and it's going to cost this. The dress is going to be this. The reception is going to be the big number usually. And if you're going to throw a party, it is. And you know, here's the videography and here's what we pay the preacher and here's what the venue costs. And you do, you're running a project like you're building a house. Here's what the carpet cost, here's what the lights cost and that's the budget and we stick to that. Then we don't go, oh, you know, we can do without the lobster flown in from Madagascar or whatever. Right.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

I will say. Because it's a story you wrote in Smart Money, Smart Kids. I did go over a little bit with the chairs at the reception.

[Dave Ramsey]

You did.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Do you remember that?

[Dave Ramsey]

I do remember that.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And I was like, hey, I. I just.

[Caller]

Come on.

[Dave Ramsey]

You had to have. Had to have the gold chair.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

No, no, no, no, no. It was just the. Yes. When everything shook out, there was a. There was a small deficit, but it was.

[Dave Ramsey]

It was not.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

No, it was not significant.

[Dave Ramsey]

And it really was.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

But in Rachel fashion, I spent every.

[Dave Ramsey]

Last penny of the three kids. This one here is the one that went over. Yeah. And so. But it was just. It was enough that it made a really good joke. And so. And we make fun of her for the next 25 years. So that's. That's it. But it's good family legend stuff. But anyway, the point being, you lay out a budget and you say, this is the number, and that means we're going to spend X on dress, Y on reception, and we can't do the open bar or we can. Or whatever we're doing. Right? Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you look at the cost and you can't just say, oh, none of this matters because of romance. Yes, it does. You're going to screw up the romance with the money.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And it's honestly. And it's good learning. I mean, I know people depending on.

[Dave Ramsey]

When you're getting married, you always have to make choices.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yes, yes. And I remember we had to do stuff like in the actual church, the pews, you know, the. The flowers on the side and all of it. We had to nix those and do berries instead. We were getting married on Christmas because we didn't have. Our flower budget was over. So it was like, okay, we got to cut flowers somewhere. Where. Where are we going to cut it? You know? So it is. It's. You are figuring it out. But it's a great test run as a couple now, the guy usually doesn't care if, like, it's usually the girl that probably has more opinions and emotions around it all.

[Dave Ramsey]

There might be some mothers or mothers involved.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Well, yeah, that too, but that. Thank God. Not for me.

[Dave Ramsey]

Anyway. You learn some boundaries there, too.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

So it's. But do not enter this. And this couple here isn't. Because the way she's asking this, I can tell she's not guilty. But do not enter this. Like, I have unlimited ability to spend just because I have a right to. This entitlement thing on weddings is out of control. And, you know, and it's partly because we have 16th birthdays now that are out of control, and then that extrapolates into a wedding that's out of control. And so. And I don't care what you spend. It's the out of control part I don't like. Okay. I mean, a friend of mine, they spent 125,000 on the wedding the other day, and that didn't bother me a bit. They got billions of dollars, and that's not a big deal, but it's this supposed grown woman, and the supposed grown man that she's marrying cannot be told. No one can tell them no, like, they're little spoiled brats or something. And that drives me bananas. But if you're paying for your own, you got to tell yourself no, like Jill's doing. So Jill's not guilty of that for sure. But, guys, just be careful with that. It can get out of control really, really quick. Frank's in Alaska. Hey, Frank, what's up?

[Caller]

Not much. How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. How can I help?

[Caller]

Great. Great. So I am looking at retiring about a year and a half or leaving my job, at least. My wife's going to keep working. We have a house mortgage at 300,000. Our house is currently worth probably about 650. I have two vacant lots right next door to me that are completely paid off, and I'm looking at possibly paying. Building a duplex on one of these, lots of. And living in one side as a way to become mortgage free within my retirement. I don't want to go into retirement and carry a mortgage.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you sell your house?

[Caller]

Well, that's a question. My mortgage for my house right now is like $1,300 a month. And I know I could rent it out for, like, $3,000 a month. And I'm thinking about just holding onto the house and using that as a supplement the income to pay off or to pay off the mortgage on a duplex.

[Dave Ramsey]

I thought you were gonna be debt free.

[Caller]

All right.

[Dave Ramsey]

How'd you not end up debt free? I thought you told me you're doing this to be debt free.

[Caller]

Well, I'm looking to be mortgage free.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're not mortgage free?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

You got a mortgage on the house, then the duplex?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, he's clearing the duplex. How are you clearing the duplex?

[Caller]

Well, clearing the duplex. Well, I have $200,000 to pay down on the duplex in cash and then eventually selling the house to use that to pay down on the duplex.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. So, no, I would not do your plan. If you want to do something to become debt free. Do it, but don't half do it. And eventually do it. You need to pull the trigger on the whole thing at once. When you get ready to do it. No, I would not do this. I don't buy rental properties, investment properties with debt, period. It adds to risk. It doesn't reduce risk. So if you want to sell the vacant one of the vacant lots and sell your home and take the equity from your home and $200,000 and build a duplex and move in half of that debt free, we can talk about that one. The downside then is that your tenant lives next door to you. The upside is your tenant lives next door to you.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah, just knock, knock, knock. Yeah, hi. This is leaking.

[Dave Ramsey]

Hello. The light bulbs out.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Happy retirement.

[Dave Ramsey]

Something's dripping over here. Yeah. Doesn't sound fun to me, but some people can do it.

[Caller]

Foreign.

[Dave Ramsey]

We've all done dumb things with money. I've done them with zeros on the end. One of the biggest mistakes I see people make with money is not having a plan for it. You got to have a plan. You got to be intentional. And you need to get a budget. You have to tell your money where to go so you're not wondering where it went. Our budgeting app, Every Dollar, helps you do just that. It's the easiest and fastest way to make a monthly plan. For every dollar you've got coming in and going out, now's the best time to get started before the ridiculous holiday spending season gets here and sucks you in because you didn't have a plan. Don't let that happen. You're done making that mistake. Go download Every Dollar for free in the App Store or Google Play. Today, Alexander is in California. Hey, Alexander. How are you?

[Caller]

Good, and you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Caller]

I'm in a predicament right now, and I need your advice.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Caller]

My mother passed away early March, and she has a life insurance policy for about $300,000. And it's split between me and my brother. My mom writ out the policy when we were minors in case she died of her disease that she passed away of not that long ago. And. And the money is being held by my aunt and my grandma.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm sorry. No, wait a minute. Stop that. That's not possible. Okay. Your mother bought a life insurance policy and it had a beneficiary.

[Caller]

I'm not sure how that stuff works, but.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I'm telling you, that's how it works. Okay. And the beneficiary is who the check should have been written to. Now, did she make your grandmother the beneficiary, or did she make you the beneficiary?

[Caller]

The paperwork states the money supposed to go to me and my brother.

[Dave Ramsey]

What paperwork?

[Caller]

My stepfather gave me the paperwork of what the insurance policy was.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Are you. Are. How old are you?

[Caller]

I just turned 18 February 27th.

[Dave Ramsey]

When did your mother pass away?

[Caller]

March 2nd.

[Dave Ramsey]

After you turned 18?

[Caller]

Yeah, I believe it was two days after I turned 18 when my mother.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm so sorry. Right.

[Caller]

It's all right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And your. Your brother is how old?

[Caller]

My brother just turned 24 a few days ago.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. So if you were named the beneficiaries, the check should not have been sent by the life insurance company to anyone but you. I'm confused how it got sent to your grandmother.

[Caller]

I think it's because my stepdad said that. I think it was written to my and my grandma, but it states on the paper that the money supposed to be split between the children, which is me and my.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's not how life insurance policy works. There's no paper that does that on life insurance. Your step. You haven't seen the paperwork, have you?

[Caller]

I have the paperwork, but you've not.

[Dave Ramsey]

Looked at it and understood it. Okay. All right. So I don't know what has happened based on the story you're telling me because you're getting told by family legend that paperwork says something, but I don't think it says what you think it says, and here's why. Okay. A life insurance policy has a beneficiary on it. The beneficiary gets sent the check. Period. If the life insurance company sends the check to someone else, they're gonna lose all the money because the person that is the beneficiary is gonna sue the life insurance company for all the money. And the life insurance companies just simply don't do that. They will not write the check to anyone that's not the beneficiary. Okay, So I think. I'm guessing because you don't know and I can't tell, but I'm guessing that this policy said that the life insurance was to go to your grandmother, and a will or a verbal agreement with your mother said it was supposed to go to you once it went to your grandmother thinking that you were going to be a minor at the time.

[Caller]

Yeah, I think that's the way my stepdad explained it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. But I think the reason their grandmother has the money is she was actually the beneficiary. Okay. And unless you can produce a piece of paper like A will or something else in writing, not family legend, but in actual writing that your grandmother owes you that money because that was your mother's written will and desire.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Does she have a will, Alexander?

[Caller]

Do you know, I have no idea, to be honest.

[Dave Ramsey]

So when you talk to your grandmother about this, what does she say?

[Caller]

Well, I talked to my aunt about it because it was written off to both of them. So they, they both got their own checks which split the money.

[Dave Ramsey]

And what did they show?

[Caller]

Well, my aunt told me about it and my stepdad told me about it around the same time. And every time I bring it up to my aunt, like the story always changed, like the amount of money changes or like the way she explains that the money will be spent changes. I mean I'm not so close to her.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Hey, you're breaking up. Alexander.

[Dave Ramsey]

We can't, we can't hear. You're breaking up, hun. Are you, are you back wherever you walked? Walk back.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Oh, there you go, you're there, you're there.

[Dave Ramsey]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Caller]

All right, my bad. Every time I do talk to my aunt, it's like something changes about it or like she has like a new rule of what the money will be spent on or something like that.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

For you or for herself?

[Caller]

For me and my brother.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

So she says, what, you have to spend it on college or you have to spend it for a down payment? Or like what does she say?

[Caller]

Well, she'll bring up college or she'll bring up like me moving out to the Bay Area with her and going to college out there and I pay her rent. But if I ever ask her for money for like something maybe I seek interest in or like to put towards my future, she's always iffy about it and saying that it's not what my mother would have wanted.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, you do not have a legal problem. You have a relationship problem.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Problem.

[Dave Ramsey]

This cannot be solved by a court of law because you don't have any.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Standing unless there's a will somewhere.

[Dave Ramsey]

If there's not a will and you don't get your hands on a will that dictates. But a will very seldom dictates what happens to life insurance policies. It only dictates what happens to an estate. So you can have a will and it does not supersede what the life insurance policy said. So the life insurance policy, I'm afraid that you are going to have to develop a relationship with your aunt that is not adversarial and that she needs to become convinced this is for your own good. She thinks she's supposed to manage this money that your mom wanted her sister to take care of you. That's what she thinks. And she's got some weird definitions of what take care of you means, and they're different than your definition. But you're 18 and you've just lost your mom and that's part of the deal. But I'm not a lawyer, Alexander. You could go spend some money with a lawyer if you want. I think you're wasting it because I don't think you're. I think you're going to, from a legal sense, persuade your aunt to use the money that is in some way that is good for you.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

How much is it? How much does your aunt have and how much does your grandmother have?

[Dave Ramsey]

Have 300,000. 150 each. Is that right?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And so. And your grandmother has some as well?

[Caller]

Yeah, my grandmother has her check put in a separate bank account from hers.

[Dave Ramsey]

And what does she tell you? You haven't talked to her?

[Caller]

No, I haven't talked to her yet about it. It's mainly my aunt trying to be in control of it all. That's why.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Well, I haven't heard anything that your aunt was using it for herself. I've heard that you are not in agreement as to what's good for you. She wants to use it for one thing that's good for you. You want to use it for a different thing that's good for you. And you want control of it. And I don't think you're going to get control of it. Your mother didn't leave you in control of it. She left your aunt in control of it. That's what it sounds like. And I don't think there's any piece of paper anywhere floating around that's going to give you control. Not in the story you told me. I'll be shocked if you find it. If you find it, then I would take that piece of paper, whatever it is, the will or anything else you can find, and sit down with your aunt in person and say, this piece of paper says that I need this money. And if you don't write me a check, I'm going to have an attorney ask you to write me a check and then you would seek legal counsel. But I don't think you're going to find that piece of paper, Alexander. I don't think it exists. I think this was a handshake between your mother and her sister and her mom and her mom to take care of her boys. And the boys just don't agree with what take care of is defined as. That's what it sounds like. You hearing me? If I were you and your brother a I would look for this paperwork and not be adversarial about it until you find the paperwork. And if you don't find the paperwork or if you do buy an airline ticket or get in a car and drive and sit down in person with your aunt and start trying to come to some alignment on what she thinks is good for you and what you think is good for you. Because I don't think the story is changing as much as you think it's changing. I think that you've gone through a lot of tragedy and hurt and heartache and you want to do what you want to do and she's telling you no know that's what it sounds like.

[Caller]

Sam.

[Dave Ramsey]

Our scripture of the day, 2nd Timothy 2:15. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Theodore Roosevelt said, far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. Amen. Hey. The Ramsey Gold Planner is out and for sale. Set you up for 2026. It's jam packed with monthly content from jade, Rachel and Dr. John DeLoney to help you start each month on track with your money, your faith and your relationships and then follow through on your goals. We sell out every year. Don't wait. You can get yours for [e-mail] store or click the link in the show notes. Jake is in Boise, Idaho. Hi Jake, how are you?

[Caller]

Oh, staying out of trouble, so can't complain too much. Good. Thanks for having me on.

[Dave Ramsey]

My pleasure. How can we help?

[Caller]

So issue or problem that came up is we had a murder happen right next door home.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Oh my gosh.

[Caller]

Yeah. My wife is a stay at home mom with 202 at home. My three little ladies. And so obviously like she was at home and everything went down and all that fun stuff with all the cops showing up, but so she doesn't feel safe there anymore. It wasn't like a gang violence thing. It was just a.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Was it random?

[Caller]

Yeah. Yes, I would say, I guess you could call around. It's like a crazy guy decided to go after some family members, I'll put it that way.

[Dave Ramsey]

So, I mean, I'm sorry, say that again.

[Caller]

Yeah, a crazy guy just decided to try and just succeeded in killing one of his, one of his daughters and then tried to kill Another one of his other kids.

[Dave Ramsey]

So wait a minute. The murder was domestic violence going crazy. He knew the people he was killing and they had nothing to do with your family?

[Caller]

Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

So this is not a crime spree in the neighborhood. This is crazy. People lived next door?

[Caller]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so why would your wife be afraid?

[Caller]

Well, she was at home through.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, no. But do you have crazy people in your family that are going to come attack you? Because that's what happened.

[Caller]

Not that I know of.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, that's what happened. Not that I know of.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Could be, but I feel the same way, Jake. I feel the same way.

[Dave Ramsey]

Next to one of them. Oh, brother. No, seriously. So, I mean, if I would be a afraid, I would be. It'd be logical to be afraid if this was a random act of crime in the neighborhood, but this was associated with the family and the people in the. A family member did this to another family member, am I correct?

[Caller]

Yes, that's correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

So there's no. There was no danger presented to your house except for stray bullets?

[Caller]

Yep, exactly.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so there's. Now that he's gone, there's no danger other than all the ickiness of this?

[Caller]

Yes, exactly. That's my very logical brain. That's not. Very emotional brain, I'll put it that way. Works well.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, that's just. That's emotional and it's logical. But emotions need to. They need to be run by logic. And we need to accept both. They're both. It's valid to say a traumatic thing happened next door. It was traumatic to me and my wife and my little girls. The cop cars were everywhere and people. People died over there. But that's traumatic. And dealing with that trauma is a valid thing and that's a sweet thing for you to do and you and your wife to work on together. That's different than. We're in danger.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And they're very separate things.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right, I'm back with you now. I had to catch up because I didn't know the story enough. All right, I'm sorry. Y' all been through this. How old are your baby? How old are your baby?

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Babies under two.

[Caller]

One just turned through yesterday actually, or today. And then another one. Other one is five months old.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, so the five month old has no idea and the two year old might have seen a cop car. So really it's. Your wife was traumatized by it.

[Caller]

Yes, that is 100% correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because I don't think the two year old grasps are probably what's going on.

[Caller]

Oh, yeah, the kids are just fine. They thought it was a fun thing.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And you're. And what she's saying, Jake.

[Dave Ramsey]

So because of all this, she's saying she wants to move?

[Caller]

Yes, exactly. She just doesn't feel safe going on walks in the neighborhood anymore. Doesn't want the little ones playing out in the backyard as much and just. But she is feeling like she needs to move and I want to be able to provide that for her.

[Dave Ramsey]

Let me stop you. Dr. John Deloney would say that she's not going to feel safe anywhere because the lack of safety is not due to the actual presence of crime. It's due to the trunk. And the trauma is inside of her. And it's going to go wherever you move.

[Caller]

Okay. This happened like a couple weeks ago. I've been talking to my wife quite a bit. She still feels how she feels. Do you guys have any advice in navigating?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I think you guys need to see a therapist. She's been through hell. You have somebody help her with her trauma. Yeah. I mean, I'm not faulting that she has these feelings there. I would feel the same way. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

It's creepy. Oh, it's weird.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's creepy.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Super weird.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, it's super weird. But it's not. It's also the cost of.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah, there was a break in of.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, if there was a random. If there were people. There were people breaking in Rachel's neighborhood. There was guys going in and knocking doors in and stuff in her neighborhood and they caught them. So everybody feels safer now in her neighborhood. Okay. But that was not associated with a single family thing. If the next door neighbor, 16 year old, stole his mother's diamond brooch and sold it to buy drugs. That doesn't make you scared. Unless he's going to come in your house to steal your diamond brooch. Right. And so there's no, there's no logical reason to be afraid when you're walking, except that you've been traumatized. And that means if you move across town, you're going to be afraid when you're walking still. Does that make sense?

[Caller]

Yes, it makes.

[Dave Ramsey]

So I don't care if you move, but I don't want you to think moving is actually going to fix it.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

It's going to solve her fear.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's not going to solve. Solve it.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

So I, I would, I would challenge. I think I'm okay with you moving. I might move.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

But I'm not going to move because I don't feel safe.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because that tells me That I haven't dealt with my trauma yet. So I would sit down with a therapist. I really would. Because I think your wife's really been traumatized. I don't.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

It's fair. Well, there was a murder in the neighborhood next to us and it was terrible, but it was a family oriented thing.

[Dave Ramsey]

We would be traumatized.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah, it's.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're so scary.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

But also my kids will still ride their bikes in that neighborhood because it wasn't a. It wasn't to your point.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's not. They're not.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

It's not a drive by shooting dangerous people around you. Right. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's not. It's not what's going on. So. But. But if. But if. But your wife has now internalized it is what I'm saying. And that's okay. I understand. It's. It's a wound. Trauma is a way. It's a valid thing to. For her to be scared and to have gone through this. But to extrapolate that to if I live on the other side of town, I won't be afraid when this had nothing to do with the house, then that means you got something else to work on. So I would see if it was me, we would sit down together and.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

See a therapist for six months of that. And then if it's for some reason still not good, then maybe try the move. I don't know.

[Dave Ramsey]

I might move anyway. Just ickiness. I can move off of Ickiness.

[Caller]

The memory.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

The memory is over.

[Dave Ramsey]

Ickiness is what Weird because it'll always be the Myrtle house as long as you live there. I mean, it's weird. Like. So yeah. I bought a house one time when I was buying and selling real estate that a guy had been killed in. And it was like it had a stigma the neighborhood, but the people that bought it had no idea. And it wasn't. I mean, I didn't have any idea when I bought it. I didn't care. I was buying a foreclosure. Right. Right. And so. But it was. But it's still. There's an ickiness. I mean, a life was ended there. It's weird. It's just strange. So the ickiness is a reason to move, but not if you're actually using the. I don't feel safe. Then that tells me she needs some other stuff. She needs some other help with this. And that's okay. It doesn't mean she's a bad person. It doesn't mean she's. You know, it just means she went through some trauma, but don't take that with you to the other side of town and then go, well, I can never go outside the rest of my life and walk, because one time, 42 years ago, there was a murder next door, and I never dealt with my trauma. That's how stuff develops. And so you don't want to live there. And I'm channeling my inner Dr. John Deloney.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

I know. I was gonna say you said internalize. You were using some.

[Dave Ramsey]

Using some John Deloney words.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Yeah, I know. I was like, man, trauma goes with you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I've been hanging out with him. I've been learning from him. He's a smart dude. It's good. So there we go.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

It's real, though. So real.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's so sad. I'm sorry y' all been through that, Jake.

[Caller]

I know.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I'm just glad everybody's okay.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

And what you don't want to do is make stupid financial decision based on the heightened emotion either. So just let some stuff settle. Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Be calm.

[Rachel Cruz Ramsey]

Go do some work. And then if you guys need to make a wise decision to move, do that.

[Dave Ramsey]

And ickiness is an okay decision, but there's nothing wrong with that. That puts this hour of the Ramsey show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of.

[Caller]

Peace, Christ Jesus, Sam.