Debt-Free Living Is a Superpower

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ramsey Show – “Debt-Free Living Is a Superpower”

Release Date: June 30, 2025

Hosts: George Camel and Dr. John Deloney from the Ramsey Network

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Introduction

In the episode titled “Debt-Free Living Is a Superpower,” George Camel and Dr. John Deloney engage with listeners grappling with various financial challenges. The hosts provide actionable advice grounded in the Ramsey Plan, addressing issues from spending addictions to supporting elderly parents and navigating financial turmoil within marriages.

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1. Holly from Louisville, Kentucky – Overcoming Spending Addiction

Issue:
Holly, a 32-year-old woman, admits to a long-term spending addiction exacerbated by inheritance misuse and a past bankruptcy. Despite therapy and medication for her bipolar II disorder, OCD, PTSD, and borderline personality disorder, she struggles with instant gratification and managing her finances.

Advice from Dr. John Deloney:
Dr. Deloney emphasizes the importance of creating external barriers to spending. He suggests:

• Enlisting Trustworthy Support: Involve family or close friends to set up barriers, such as controlling debit card access or changing online payment methods.
• Implementing External Locks: Canceling services like Amazon Prime or assigning passcodes to restrict spending.
• Seeking Accountability: Having someone oversee financial transactions to prevent impulsive spending.

Notable Quote:
"When we keep saying the word addiction, it gives this thing a power over us."
— Dr. John Deloney [03:12]

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2. Olivia from Boise – Supporting Elderly Parents with Medical Debt

Issue:
Olivia and her siblings are financially supporting their parents, who have accumulated significant medical debt following their mother's stroke. This support has strained Olivia and her siblings' finances, threatening their ability to save for the future.

Advice from Dr. John Deloney:

• Reality Conversations: Organize family meetings to openly discuss the financial strain and redefine contributions.
• Seek Sustainable Solutions: Encourage the father to seek stable employment with benefits, possibly shifting job roles to ensure a consistent income.
• Strategic Planning: Develop a long-term plan that includes potential moves, renegotiating medical bills, and applying for disability benefits where applicable.

Notable Quote:
"From here on out, we need to come up with a more strategic plan, a more systematic plan because this is just chaotic for everybody."
— Dr. John Deloney [16:49]

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3. Ellie from Dallas, Texas – Financial Control in Marriage

Issue:
Ellie describes a marriage where her husband exerts undue financial control, leaving her without access to funds and making unilateral financial decisions. She seeks guidance on exiting the relationship without incurring debt or financial instability.

Advice from Dr. John Deloney and George Camel:

• Establish Financial Independence: Change direct deposit arrangements to place her income in her own account, thereby gaining control over her finances.
• Seek Legal Counsel: Consult with an attorney to navigate the divorce process and protect her financial interests.
• Prepare for Retaliation: Anticipate and mitigate potential financial retaliation by her husband, such as cutting off essential services or withholding funds.
• Emotional Support: Continue counseling and support systems to handle the emotional stress of leaving an abusive financial relationship.

Notable Quote:
"You're making 40,000 bucks a year and you could turn a switch on and make 65 starting tomorrow."
— Dr. John Deloney [29:20]

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4. Jade – Balancing Debt-Free Living with a Debt-Ridden Boyfriend

Issue:
Jade has achieved financial stability post-divorce but is now in a relationship with a boyfriend who is deeply in debt and unwilling to communicate about finances. She struggles with the urge to rescue him financially despite potential risks.

Advice from Dr. John Deloney and George Camel:

• Avoid Financial Rescue: Refrain from lending or giving money to maintain financial independence and avoid enabling unhealthy behaviors.
• Establish Boundaries: Clearly define financial boundaries within the relationship to prevent financial strain.
• Focus on Personal Stability: Prioritize her own financial goals and security, recognizing that rescuing her boyfriend can lead to further complications.
• Seek Professional Guidance: Engage with financial advisors to navigate the complexities of supporting a partner while maintaining her debt-free status.

Notable Quote:
"Please don't try to rescue him. You tried to rescue a man for 30 years."
— Dr. John Deloney [45:46]

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5. Mary from Jacksonville – Considering Early Withdrawal from Pension

Issue:
At 56, Mary contemplates an early withdrawal from her pension to pay down $75,000 in debt. She is torn between expediting debt repayment and preserving her retirement funds, aware of tax implications.

Advice from George Camel:

• Avoid Early Withdrawals: Refrain from tapping into retirement funds as it can derail long-term financial security.
• Explore Alternative Solutions: Consider selling non-essential assets or downsizing to alleviate debt without sacrificing retirement savings.
• Strengthen Budgeting: Enhance budgeting strategies to better manage expenses and accelerate debt repayment without compromising retirement.

Notable Quote:
"I don't love this plan because it really doesn't change Mary's behavior, which is what got us here."
— George Camel [73:14]

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6. Jay from Charlotte, North Carolina – Navigating Trust in Financial Advisors

Issue:
Jay expresses distrust towards stockbrokers and financial advisors due to past negative experiences and prevalent scams. He seeks guidance on making passive investments without falling prey to fraudulent schemes.

Advice from Dr. John Deloney and George Camel:

• Due Diligence: Carefully vet financial advisors through platforms like SmartVestor to find trustworthy professionals.
• Understand Investments: Educate himself on investment basics to make informed decisions and reduce reliance on others.
• Diversify Investments: Avoid putting all funds into single-stock investments, especially company-specific stocks, to mitigate risk.
• Seek Transparent Advisors: Choose advisors who prioritize client education and maintain transparency in their fee structures and investment strategies.

Notable Quote:
"There's no such thing as a passive investment."
— Dr. John Deloney [117:00]

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7. Samantha from Dayton, Ohio – Balancing Parental Support and Financial Boundaries

Issue:
Samantha, a millionaire mother, faces conflict with her 20-year-old son who refuses to join her on a fully funded vacation due to his concerns about debt. She questions whether to honor his financial reservations or prioritize family experiences.

Advice from Dr. John Deloney and George Camel:

• Open Communication: Encourage honest discussions about financial fears and the importance of family bonding experiences.
• Affirm Financial Independence: Reiterate that supporting her son’s vacation does not equate to enabling financial irresponsibility.
• Set Clear Expectations: Define when and how financial support will be provided, ensuring it aligns with her financial goals and values.
• Promote Balanced Relationships: Foster a healthy balance between financial prudence and personal relationships, avoiding guilt-based decisions.

Notable Quote:
"You are well within your right to spend your money however you want to spend it."
— Dr. John Deloney [110:36]

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8. Heather from Jacksonville – Single Mother Managing Debt and Credit

Issue:
Heather, a 56-year-old single mother, is $75,000 in debt and considers early withdrawal from her pension to expedite debt repayment. She also grapples with a low credit score due to minimal credit usage.

Advice from George Camel:

• Prioritize Emergency Savings: Focus on building a robust emergency fund before making significant financial maneuvers.
• Avoid Pension Withdrawal: Refrain from tapping into retirement funds to prevent compromising long-term financial security.
• Enhance Income Streams: Explore opportunities to increase income through career advancement or additional part-time work.
• Improve Credit Health: Gradually build credit by responsibly using and managing credit accounts, avoiding drastic measures like early pension withdrawals.

Notable Quote:
"I don't love this plan, number one, because it really doesn't change Mary's behavior, which is what got us here."
— George Camel [73:14]

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9. Anna from Las Vegas – Managing Trust Accounts Amidst Family Conflict

Issue:
Anna seeks advice on modifying her brokerage trust account to exclude her narcissistic son and include his ex-wife post-divorce. She aims to protect her assets from potential misuse during the divorce settlement.

Advice from Dr. John Deloney and George Camel:

• Consult Estate Planning Attorneys: Work closely with legal professionals to restructure trust accounts in a manner that safeguards her assets.
• Avoid Direct Transfers: Recognize that gifting large sums directly can lead to legal complications and unintended access during divorces.
• Implement Protective Measures: Utilize legal instruments such as irrevocable trusts or designated beneficiary arrangements to control asset distribution.
• Emotional Decision-Making: Ensure financial decisions are made rationally, free from heightened emotions, by seeking professional guidance.

Notable Quote:
"When we are angry, our brains shut off critical thinking and we are simply responding animals."
— Dr. John Deloney [114:44]

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Conclusion

Throughout “Debt-Free Living Is a Superpower,” George Camel and Dr. John Deloney offer compassionate, structured advice tailored to each caller’s unique financial struggles. Emphasizing the Ramsey principles of budgeting, debt snowballing, and financial independence, the hosts guide listeners toward sustainable wealth-building and healthier financial relationships.

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Notable Quotes Compilation:

• "When we keep saying the word addiction, it gives this thing a power over us." — Dr. John Deloney [03:12]
• "From here on out, we need to come up with a more strategic plan, a more systematic plan because this is just chaotic for everybody." — Dr. John Deloney [16:49]
• "You're making 40,000 bucks a year and you could turn a switch on and make 65 starting tomorrow." — Dr. John Deloney [29:20]
• "Please don't try to rescue him. You tried to rescue a man for 30 years." — Dr. John Deloney [45:46]
• "I don't love this plan because it really doesn't change Mary's behavior, which is what got us here." — George Camel [73:14]
• "There's no such thing as a passive investment." — Dr. John Deloney [117:00]
• "You are well within your right to spend your money however you want to spend it." — Dr. John Deloney [110:36]
• "When we are angry, our brains shut off critical thinking and we are simply responding animals." — Dr. John Deloney [114:44]

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Disclaimer: The advice provided in this summary is based on the episode’s content and reflects the perspectives of the hosts. For personalized financial guidance, consult a certified financial planner or advisor.

Transcript

[Caller]

Foreign.

[George Camel]

To you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. From the Ramsey Network, this is the Ramsey show where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm Ramsey personality George Camel, joined by my very good friend Dr. John Deloney. And we're taking your calls at 888-2552. This is your chance to get your questions answered, to take the right next step for your life, your money, your relationships, whatever's going on, John will help. And I'll be along for the ride. Let's get to it. Holly is in Louisville, Kentucky, coming up first. What's going on, Holly?

[Caller]

Hey, guys. Thank you so much for taking my call.

[George Camel]

Sure.

[Caller]

So I am going to be upfront. I have a spending addiction. It's been going on for many years. It got to the point I'm 32 now, but I was 21 when this started. Really. I was given a 6 figure some of 250k by people in my family that had passed on. And I spent it within a year and a half to two years tops. I mean, it was crazy. I went on trips and bought stuff. I never got a refund for things. Like, I moved with it. And now I'm facing not being able to pay my own rent. I have family helping me with rent because I just, I suck at managing money. I have a bankruptcy that was done in 2021 because I was married and my ex husband and I made really bad choices with money. So I know with the psychological things, I'm kind of glad that John, Dr. John's on the call today because, I mean, I go to therapy, I take my medications for my mental health concerns, but nothing's working. I like the instant gratification, things like that. So I was just looking for a little bit of Ramsey guidance with this because I can't. One minute I'm following Dave's plan, the next minute I'm planning on taking out 50k in student loans for a master's degree. And I just. I don't know what to do.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So before we get going, what is your clinical diagnosis?

[Caller]

I have bipolar two. They thought it was bipolar one at first. My current provider thinks it's bipolar two.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

It's not big of a difference. And then.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, that's pretty significant. It's pretty significant.

[Caller]

True, true. Yeah, you're right. You're right. It's still bipolar, though, I think. And I have ocd, PTSD, and borderline personality. So I've got a myriad of problems. I've also Had a lot of hospitalizations, telling the whole world that, that's great to tell the whole world.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, I mean it's your life and so you to choose who you tell. But hospitalizations for self harm.

[Caller]

Yeah. And, and intrusive thoughts, things like that. And I got help and doing a lot better with those things. Spending addiction is a really big problem. I mean I'm literally down to 35, $35 in my banking account, checking account, and my dad just sent me some money.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So let me jump in here, let me jump in here, let me jump in here. Okay. I want to, I want to re. I want to change your language a little bit. Okay. The language that we use, especially in these situations is really power. Going to shift that a little bit. Okay.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

When we keep saying the word addiction. Addiction, addiction, addiction. It gives this thing a power over us. And addictive behaviors are very, very powerful. So don't hear me say that, but I want to, I want to. Just for this conversation, I want to shift a little bit. Okay, Let me ask you a wild question.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And this comes from working with folks who struggle with addiction and usually it's an inside baseball question that most people don't even know that we ask in these conversations.

[Caller]

Okay, fair enough.

[Dr. John Deloney]

What does spending do for you? Positively it.

[Caller]

I think it releases like endorphins, dopamine.

[Dr. John Deloney]

State of the brain, chemistry stuff. Just what does it give you?

[Caller]

It gives me whatever I'm buying in that moment and that. And for a few minutes that makes me happy. Like if I go out, I go out to eat a lot, so that's, that's the biggest thing. I don't like to eat at home, so I prefer to take it doordash or go out to eat. And that's a big source of my problem. But the instant gratification is what makes me happy.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Is there a part of that, and this is a leading question, obviously, so tell me if I'm wrong, but is there a part of clicking? Is there a part of seeing something and buying the scrolling? Is there a part of that action or maybe all of it that lets you get outside of your own skin for a minute? Because it feels so uncomfortable just to be you sometimes.

[Caller]

Oh yeah. I mean I. I've never had good self confidence, so it makes me feel like I'm actually distracted from myself or distracted from being in my head for just a few minutes even.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Sure, sure. So I think what I often like to do with, with people who are struggling with different addictions, gambling, alcohol, spending is I want to look at the thing it's giving you in the, that that feels like positive for a minute. Because if, if you're struggling with alcohol, alcohol makes it to where it doesn't hurt so bad to live sometimes, right? It's just that alcohol will kill you over time, right? Smoking weed all the time, that actually makes you feel less anxious than mom. It pulls you out of your skin and lets you just float for a bit. And that actually is helpful. It will just take a lot of stuff from you too. And so what I want to say, spending this opportunity we have in this crazy weird little sliver of history we have and it won't be like this forever and it's never been like this before, but we can just scroll endlessly and click and click and click and somebody will show up at our house with some food, somebody will show up to our house with a box and for a second it lets us not be in our own skin. And you have most people, I would say, start with the ramifications. And that hasn't stopped you, right? So bankruptcy hasn't stopped you. Mental health diagnostics hasn't stopped. So there's some, there's some normal, what I would call regular speed bumps or breaks that normally help folks but not everybody. And so you just have to open handedly say those big like those big consequences. They haven't stopped me. So cool. Now we have another data point. And so now what you have to do is have the courage to say not hey, will you keep sending me money, Send me money, send me money, send me money, but will you help me for a season? Father friend, fifth therapist. Therapist couldn't do this. But co worker like people you trust where you helped me set up some incredibly high hurdles when it comes to me and my spending. What does that look like? That means canceling Amazon prime today or giving somebody else to have them change the passcode so that only they can get it. So if you really need something, you have to go through them giving somebody your debit card for 60 days or 90 days so you have no way to spend calling and can't freezing your own credit report or having somebody sit with you and freeze it so that there has to be a some hurdles you have to jump through because what you need right now is some external breaks because your internal systems just aren't getting the message right now.

[Caller]

No they're not.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Does that make sense?

[Caller]

It does. No one's ever explained that to me like that before. I've had a friend offer to take my paychecks and send them to her over PayPal. And as I need them, she'll send them money back.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I don't, I don't even want to do that. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be doing electronic stuff because the more you're in there, they have these. The folks who have made electronic payment systems are simply better than all of us at controlling our behavior. That's why they're amazing at what they do. They've created the most addictive slot machines in human history and they put them in our pocket. So you don't have any cash. You can pay with credit card. You don't have that. You can just do PayPal. You don't have that. Just do Apple Pay. You know what, you don't even have to get your, the card out of your wallet. You can just tap the whole thing. You don't have to touch anything anymore. And so if you're getting a paycheck and you're paypaling it over here, you're going to Venmo some of it over here and you're going to spend some. I want to drop that whole system. Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And that means for you, you're going to have to be really intentional about putting some big hurdles. And then when you feel I want to buy something, I want to buy something and you don't have the ability to do that, that's when you know, okay, I got to call my counselor, I got to call my, my AA support person. If you're in recovery, I've got to call my close friends. I've got pastor, I've got to call somebody and exhale through this thing. And that's the seeds of long term behavior change. It will be incredibly uncomfortable for 60 or 90 days till you break these habits. But put some huge hurdles in front of yourself and keep going to counseling and keep taking your medications. I'm proud of you for where you're going. You'll get there.

[George Camel]

You know, one of the first things I discovered working in the financial world is how absolutely devastating it is when the breadwinner of a family dies and there's too little life insurance or none at all. Grieving families are suddenly left behind scrambling to pay bills and trying to make ends meet. I also discovered that there are a lot of rip offs in the life insurance world. Like that whole life crap posing as an investment opportunity. What you need is level term life insur usually 10 to 12 times your income, which is the smartest, most affordable way to protect your family. The Key is finding an independent broker who represents a ton of companies and works for you, not for the insurance company. This is exactly what my friend Jeff Zander and his team at Zander Insurance are all about. They shop the term life companies to find you the best options. And they've been around for over 95 years, so you know they'll be there when you need them. Zander is the real deal, and that's why they've handled all my personal insurance for over 25 years. I trust them and you can, too. Visit Zander.com for instant online quotes or for a more personal touch, give them a call at 800-356-4282. Olivia's up next in Boise. What's going on, Olivia?

[Caller]

Hi. So my question is, my parents had some medical emergencies that have drained their savings. My siblings and I have been helping to support them financially, but we've all been kind of drowning in that lately and just not seeing an end in sight. So I was calling to see what you guys felt like was the best way to use the money that we're all contributing to help them the most.

[George Camel]

What happened with their health?

[Caller]

My mom. Sorry. Had a stroke that left her completely disabled.

[George Camel]

Oh, so sorry.

[Caller]

Yeah, I hate that. Yeah. So.

[George Camel]

And do they. Do they have insurance right now?

[Caller]

They do have health insurance. It only covered so much, and then my dad had to cut back to working only part time, and so that's put the biggest financial strain. He's only working, you know, three to four days a week as her health allows.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So let me start with this question and kind of reverse engineer it. Often when kids come in to help in these kind of situations, help looks like keeping everything exactly the same. Same house, same bill, same streaming services and all that kind of stuff. Have you all had the conversation about, here's our new reality and hey, dad, we're gonna have to potentially sell this house. We need to move into a condo or an apartment. Are y' all moving in with one of the kids? Like, have y' all had that? Hey, this is the new reality, or are y' all just pumping money in to keep their life exactly the same as it was?

[Caller]

A little bit of both. So they did have to relocate. They're in a rental now. The rental prices in our area are really expensive, so that's a big strain. But the struggle. So he works sales, he's on commission, and he's just not making enough to get by. But it just varies. We never know how much you know, he's going to need. And we all want to help as much as possible, but it feels like we're getting by barely. But we're looking at the future. They had to drain their retirement savings. They don't qualify for any benefits. And how old are they? I'm not sure. They're in their 50s.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Oh, so they're still young, huh?

[Caller]

Yep.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah. So he's in a world where he's going to have to accept a new reality. He's got to go get different jobs. And I know that's a very hard conversation to have with your dad who's also like doing medical care. I mean, doing in home care, right?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Camel]

What would care look like if he wasn't taking care of her?

[Caller]

And what would that cost? We're all helping right now. We have someone that helps once a week. It's really expensive and we're just paying that out of pocket. And then my siblings and I all help split up the care because she has care 24, 7. But I mean, if anyone's sick, if anybody has something for work, he has to call in sick. So that's really putting a strain on him as well because he only works. He only makes money when he works, you know.

[George Camel]

Yeah. What do the bills look like right now? What do you guys need to cover for them?

[Caller]

It just depends on how much he makes in a month. I mean, they have their rent, they don't have any car payments, which is good. Medical bills are really expensive. They're still paying on that every month. And then just, you know, food, insurance, those things, just the basics. They don't have any debt.

[George Camel]

But can we push pause on the medical bills so they can cover their own food and utilities?

[Caller]

That is something that we talked about was trying to maybe renegotiate because the payment was like $700 a month and that was really hurting them.

[George Camel]

What's the total balance on the medical debt?

[Caller]

Oh, I think it's like probably 3, 400,000.

[George Camel]

Oh my goodness.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah. And they, they know they'll never see that, right? I mean, right.

[George Camel]

It's, it's like Monopoly money.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah. Well, how long ago did this stroke happen?

[Caller]

It's been, we're coming up on the two year anniversary.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay. Two year anniversary. So what I'm going to tell you may not, may not happen in reality. Okay, I'm giving you a fantasy dream scenario. Okay. But this is one of those perfect moments. If you have a six month window or a one year window, or in your case a two year window. Sometimes these annivers markers are great moments to get everybody if possible, either on Zoom or in the same room. And they just simply become. We have to have a reality conversation. Dad and all the siblings. And at some point, whether it's you or whether it's one of your siblings, every sibling group seems to have a dad whisper and a mom whisperer. You know, I don't know who that is in your, in your group, but that would say, dad, we need to know how much money you'll need every month. Because right now y' all. Because, right, because also y' all can't plan for your lives either.

[Caller]

Right? Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And so he has to, I mean, he's got 20 plus years more of working life left and just, just spit shotting a sales, 100 sales commission job is not going to get it done. He's going to have to get a job where he's got some sort of health insurance if at all possible, some job where he maybe makes less money overall, but he's got a consistent income coming in. So they, any sort of planning and arrangements and then you'll have to be honest with each other about are they going to move in with somebody and take the back bedroom and the back bathroom and does anybody want to do that? No, but that's just a reality we're in. Or y' all sit down as siblings and say from here on indefinitely, we can contribute 200 bucks. You know, sister can contribute 500 bucks because she's an attorney and her husband's a surgeon. Like who knows what y' all situation is, but just get very clear so that y' all can sit down and have this two year reconciliation meeting and say we've all talked, we can come up with 700 bucks between us per month indefinitely. But from here on out, we need to, we need to come up with a more strategic plan, a more systematic plan because this is just chaotic for everybody. Also, knowing your whole, your dad's entire life as he knew it has changed. Your mom's life as she knew it has changed. Right. And so it's not like this is fun or easy, but we just have to have a choosing reality conversation. In your particular family system, is that a possibility? Some families are absolutely on top of that and some just simply cannot do that.

[Caller]

We have done that. That's kind of where we got to the point that we are, some siblings are close by, so they've been more willing to help than others. And like you said, some of our financial situations are different. It's felt like it's mostly on a couple of us and that's where we're starting to feel concerned because we're like, okay, is this going to be this way for the rest of our life? And should we be doing something to put money away for them for the future now, too, because they cashed out all their saving? Like, what. What we're doing is sustaining us for now, but it feels like there's no future.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You know, it feels like your dad needs to be very radical about going to get work to support him and his wife. And the conversation needs to extend to the siblings about how are we going to be there or not be there to support mom? And what I want to challenge you on is if you're one of the siblings that the. The lion's share of the support is. Is. Is falling on, if you're carrying a bigger load, I want you to choose guilt over resentment when it comes to unspoken conversations, because you're going to feel guilty about saying anything. You're going to get. Start getting mad and not say anything. And then all of a sudden, you're gonna have a brother who lives in North Carolina, sister lives in Maine, and you're gonna hate them when their number comes up on your cell phone. And that's really not their fault yet, because they don't even know you get what I'm saying?

[Caller]

Right?

[Dr. John Deloney]

Is that. Is that fair?

[Caller]

Yes, definitely.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So there's. Maybe it's not even about mom and dad. Maybe it's just about siblings. Everybody gets in a room and says, okay, this. We're looking at 25 more years of this potentially.

[Caller]

Right?

[Dr. John Deloney]

So I'm. I can't keep going like this. I miss my family. I miss my husband. We don't have the money to keep doing this. Whatever things that you need to say out loud. And if you have a brother who's also helping or another sister who's also helping, let's just be honest about where we're at and put. Call your other siblings onto the carpet. If they say, we are not contributing, we're not helping, we're out. You might be mad at them, be angry, but at least you know, and you can begin to plan.

[Caller]

Right?

[Dr. John Deloney]

Is that fair?

[Caller]

Definitely. No, Definitely.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay. I just need you to prepare some space in your heart for this to go really bad for them to be like, yeah, we're not doing anything right?

[George Camel]

And then the next step is going, dad, how can we make sure that you can cover your own bills? We're happy to help while you need it, but I don't want you guys essentially paying the debt for them. I'd Rather him be able to cover his household and if he can't pay the medical debt, he can't pay the debt. And that's gonna be a conversation with the hospital and it'll be ongoing. And you know, you as a family can advocate for your mom and do all the homework, get all creative with the options and you know, can we apply for disability? When will Medicare kick in? Just know all of the next steps. Like John said, let's have kind of a yearly check in and go, okay, what's the next step? What does the next year of care look like? Let's look back at how much it costs, how much everyone's pitching in. And that's all you can do is develop a game plan and be real clear with communication along the way.

[Dr. John Deloney]

What, has dad come out of the fog yet or is he just running? Is he just collapse every night after a full day of care and then a full day of trying to be a salesperson?

[Caller]

I think a little bit of both. It's really hard to sell, you know, because he, he can't work all the time. And then it's, it's the cost too. The biggest problem is care. She can't be left alone. And so every day he works, someone has to be there to care for her. So he wants to work more, sure. But he has to pay someone to be there. So he has to make enough but work to cover it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And that's what's been hard. Have you all applied for SSI benefits yet for her?

[Caller]

They have. They don't qualify for anything. She's always been a stay at home mom. She has a whole bunch of kids, so we have a big family. And so she stayed at home her whole life. He was always working and.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Sorry, sorry. We're getting up on the clock here. Yeah, this is a messy situation.

[Caller]

Hey, y' all dads do a lot, but they might not think about what happens once they're gone. So dads, listen up. When something happens, your loved ones don't want to be guessing passwords or searching through the garage to find your important stuff. That's why you need Knockbox. That's N o K as in next of kin box. Knockbox is a physical system that helps you simplify and organize all your important documents like your will, account info, passwords and medical records in one safe place. You guys, one of the most loving and wise things a dad can do is leave behind a plan, not a puzzle. So go to knockbox.com Ramsey and check it out. Knockbox.com Rams.

[George Camel]

Ellie is with us up next in Dallas, Texas. Ellie, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[George Camel]

What's going on?

[Caller]

So, you know, I've been married just over 20 years now to a man that, you know, he has a great job. Naval reserve is the officer in the naval reserves. You know, I'm a nurse. We have great incomes. But, you know, we started out this marriage with, you know, it all kind of evolved because we really started this marriage with no communication about finances. And, you know, it's the typical. I'm the spender, he's the saver. But to him, he's very black and white, very engineer like, needs nothing in his life. You know, he doesn't need vacations, doesn't have hobbies, friends, nothing. So, you know, that just puts my spending on steroids, which I don't even spend that much. I mean, it's just that.

[George Camel]

But to him, you're congress. You might as well be. You're out of control.

[Caller]

Right, so he runs because he's so. Yes. He's just so literal to the point. I mean, and that is the issue. The degree that he is literal is the problem. And it's created this, you know, he's gotten so financially abusive. We've never shared accounts. He, you know, he transfers what he wants, my allowance to my account. I can't see the other accounts.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, hold on a second. Hold on a second. Hold on, hold on, hold on. He's not on the call, so I can tell you right now he sucks. That's, that's not a way to be married to somebody. Okay, but he's not on the call.

[Caller]

I understand.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So let me ask you, what have you done to try to bridge this gap?

[Caller]

Well, I mean, the problem is he only cares.

[Dr. John Deloney]

No, no, you just brought, you, you went right back to him. Come to you. What have you done to try to bridge this gap?

[Caller]

Him. I have tried to talk to him, you know, and, and, and say we need to communicate about this. We came into the marriage, I came in with like a two year old. And I think we lived very separately at first. Our finances were divided, which was fine, but when we had our twins, it, it needed to be combined. And then it all just went downhill from there. I have tried to talk to him, but he's, he's one that is very, I mean, I say narcissistic Asperger's. There's no having a conversation with him. He deflects, gets defensive. You can't get past that. We have never communicated in the 20 years.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, okay, then let's do something different.

[Caller]

Trying to dive into it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Let's do something different then. Okay. Have you ever sat down with your husband and said, listen, Because I. Here's what's funny. I can feel myself getting defensive talking to you. And I. I barely know how Excel works. I'm. As far. My wife's love language is spreadsheets and lists. Lists.

[Caller]

That's his.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay. And I. I know how Excel works. I know how one of the formulas works in Excel.

[Caller]

Yep.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

Same.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So have you sat down with him and said, listen, I'm. I've got one foot out the door. I don't feel safe in this marriage. I don't feel like you not. We need to communicate better. Because he's probably thinking, I communicate fine with the equal sum function on Excel. What is so hard? Why are we not communicating? Have you said, I don't feel safe in this house?

[Caller]

Yes. He doesn't. That. That doesn't faze him. He doesn't.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, okay. But listen, listen, listen, listen. Then you are. You're every. If you've tried that. If you have said, I don't feel safe in my home. I don't feel safe in this marriage. I'm worried about our kids. And he has looked at you, whether either exactly or behaviorally, and said, I don't care what you think or what you feel. Listen, if he's done that, then every second you spend going back to 20 years ago and I've done this and I. Is a. Is a waste of energy.

[Caller]

Yes. Yes.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It just is. He is. He has left you so long ago. He just never filed papers.

[Caller]

Nope.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

Yep.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So the better use of your energy and your time and your spirit and your love for yourself and for your kids is to exhale and to grieve that. That. That emptiness of your marriage in real time and then go be about this scary question, what am I going to do now?

[Caller]

Well, that's my real question is how do you get out when you have no access to any of the finances? I can't get a retainer fee. I mean, and the question I had is, do you open. You know, all my friends say, open up a credit card. I mean, I'll max that baby out in six months because I don't even know if I can get credit because I've never had a credit card when I did, the one time I did.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Hold on, hold on.

[Caller]

He doesn't want to spend anything. He says, your own credit card.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You're just spinning circles inside your own chest. I know. It's Scary. Okay. Have you called an attorney yet?

[Caller]

I don't have money to even.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You don't know that though.

[Caller]

The money to even do a, you know, a consult fee.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You don't know that.

[Caller]

I have, I have, yes. In the past I have talked to a couple attorneys.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay. Have you sat down and said, my husband, we have a ton of money, I have no access to it and so going to have to pay you as a percentage on the back end.

[Caller]

The couple that I have weren't really willing to do.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, then go to the next.

[Caller]

That's been five years now.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Then go to the next one. Or go get yourself a part time job.

[George Camel]

And where is your money?

[Caller]

Job.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

He handles it. He.

[George Camel]

Now where do your paychecks go? They go direct deposit into his bank account that he has sole ownership of.

[Caller]

Well, we have. We recently in five years ago, we opened up a joint account that his paycheck and my check go into. And then he, he takes everything out and transfers it back to his account and leaves me, you know, like a week.

[George Camel]

Listen, you have control. You have say in the joint account, right?

[Caller]

No, but if I take more than he wants me to, he will deduct.

[George Camel]

Change the direct deposit to go into your account.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Right? Go right to your boss.

[Caller]

I have. And then he tells me. Then he, then he tells me he, he's going to, he's going to change his direct deposit and won't give me anything because I'm playing games. He's done. No, no, his direct deposit.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You are playing games. Tell him I am planning to leave you.

[Caller]

I'm worried to say that only because he knows that we talk about divorce all the time, but he doesn't care. That doesn't faze him. He doesn't care if I leave. He. But, but if I tell him that, he'll just be like, do what you need to do.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, then why does that scare you so bad?

[Caller]

Because I don't know. I can't. I don't know how to get money to get out because he's gonna play games during the divorce. I know I'll be fine at the end. I' about. I can't just run out like my friends and go get an apartment. You know he's gonna stop paying the phone bill. You know he's going to take all the things like stop paying the car insurance. He's gonna. And he's gonna cut off everything.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Is this.

[Caller]

Tell me he can't pay it because now we have to pay for a divorce.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Ellie, Ellie, Ellie. Is this real?

[Caller]

Oh, No, I know it's not. I just want to get out and I don't know how to get out without a dime, how to walk away without a dime. I don't care about the relationship.

[Dr. John Deloney]

How much money do you make? How much money do you, do you make in your job?

[Caller]

Well, I'm only working part time now. I probably make only about 40,000 as a nurse. He makes, you know, upwards of.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Then you might have to go full time. If you, if your marriage is this far gone and you're with somebody who's so abusive. Listen, listen, Ellie, listen. What you're saying simply isn't true. You make 40,000 bucks a year and you could turn a switch on and make 65 starting tomorrow. And it would change your kids lives, it would change your life. You'd have to get childcare, you'd have to get rides. All that is true. But you could have an apartment tomorrow if you wanted one, period. And you might have to pay the phone bill. You might have to pay car insurance. All that is true.

[Caller]

But you can do that without credit.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You could. Yes, you can.

[George Camel]

You don't need credit to switch car insurance and to get a phone. You're not going to go into debt.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Debt. Right.

[George Camel]

So please don't open a credit card. You have money. You can do this. Are you in debt right now?

[Caller]

No.

[Dr. John Deloney]

No.

[George Camel]

Good.

[Caller]

I'm not. I mean, we have like 10,000 on one credit card, but I mean your.

[George Camel]

Name is on more than that.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You're making, you've made up so many stories.

[Caller]

It's hard.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Listen, you've made up so many stories in your mind about what's going to happen and then this is going to happen and then that's going to happen.

[George Camel]

Yes.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's called anxiety. You are, you are creating future narratives and you're experiencing them in the now.

[George Camel]

Yes.

[Caller]

I just so worried because I know he's going to make this a living. You know?

[Dr. John Deloney]

He is, he is because he's, he might. Maybe because he's that kind of guy. Okay, but what do you. What's your option to keep just wrapping this spider's web around your arms and your legs and your eyes and your ears and your nose and your neck and all over or he's going to do what he's going to do. I'm going to go do the next right thing for me and my family.

[George Camel]

Period.

[Caller]

Yes. I mean, my kids are in college, but you know, he.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Then, then, then you could be in a one bedroom apartment tomorrow with $40,000. You can go to full time tomorrow and make $80,000 or $60,000. All of these things are true.

[George Camel]

You can change direct deposit. And yes, he's going to retaliate and he's going to do all these things. It doesn't matter. You're going to take ownership of the things you have control over. And there's more in control than you think.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's day one. Go make your move.

[Caller]

What's up, guys? It's Jade.

[George Camel]

And let me tell you, when my husband and I had $280,000 of student loan debt, we were not sitting around waiting on the government to bail us out. We did the hard work to pay it off ourselves.

[Caller]

So if you're still holding out hope that forgiveness is coming, that's like you waiting for your landlord to start paying your rent.

[George Camel]

It ain't gonna happen.

[Caller]

If you really want those student loans gone, you need a plan. And for some of you, refinancing might be part of the plan. So I recommend Laurel Road.

[George Camel]

With Laurel Road, you can get an.

[Caller]

Initial rate quote in less than five minutes. And if you have a more complex situation, you can set up 30 minutes to talk to a real actual human.

[George Camel]

Being to find if refinancing is right for you.

[Caller]

Ramsey's advice is clear. Get out of debt as fast as possible and a lower rate or a.

[George Camel]

Shorter term can make that possible.

[Caller]

Laurel Road has low competitive rates and they even offer interest rate discounts.

[George Camel]

So stop waiting on the maybes and the somedays and start taking action today. Go to LaurelRoad.com Ramsey to get a free rate quote or schedule a free 30 minute consultation.

[Caller]

That's Laurelroad.com Ramsey.

[George Camel]

Buying or selling your home is a big deal and you want an expert in your corner fighting for you to find the best deal for the right price. And the Ramsey trusted program is the only way to find a top agent you can trust who will help make your home a blessing instead of a burden. It's easy. Just compare agent profiles, interview them and choose the right one to work with. You can find a local Ramsey trusted real estate pro for [e-mail] agent or click the link in the description. If you're listening on YouTube or podcasts. We're headed to New York City. Up next with Sarah. What's going on? Sarah, Hi.

[Caller]

So my. Well, first of all, thanks for taking my call. I watch you guys all the time.

[George Camel]

Thank you.

[Caller]

So I did want to just start off with my question, but I'm not sure if I'm even asking the right one. So my question is, are we making the smartest financial decision and also decision for our marriage as me and my husband currently live with our in laws. So. Well, my in laws, so his parents. But, but basically we have an amazing relationship. I mean I have. We've never butt heads about anything. We're very independent in terms of they don't butt into my marriage, I don't butt into theirs. And it started off temporary and we originally planned to move out but because the living situation is really just really serene with them and we just live well and have a better quality of life, we made the mutual decision, me and my husband, to stay with them along just our whole life journey. The eventual goal is to move out of our two bedroom apartment that he's had for a long time. So we have a very low amount of rent and get a four bedroom, hopefully somewhere in this house. And that will take a lot of money, especially looking at the interest rates right now. So I'm wondering, everybody, I mean everyone I talk to about this thinks that we're crazy. I could never do that. And we get all that commentary, but is it really just commentary or should. Are we just too comfortable and we need to, you know, we need to just make the move and move out?

[George Camel]

So are you asking the right question? You started off saying, well, we're very independent, but the definition of independent would be not living with your in laws. Can we agree on that?

[Caller]

Agreed.

[George Camel]

Okay. Do you want to be independent? It sounds like you guys are happy with this situation. Nobody's forcing you to do anything. I've just never found it to be a great long term situation. Regardless of if the relationship is good or not. I think it is healthy for you two to be on your own. Even if that means that house dream is delayed by a few years. So what is the situation now? What are you guys actually saving per month? Where are you putting that money and what is the strategic goal here? Is it 6 months, is it 10 years?

[Caller]

So the goal is to have around 200k in cash saved up so that we can put down a down payment, be able to buy furniture, buy cars, cash, when we actually make the big move for all of us. The other portion of it is the additional reason why we feel that we want to take this on or agree to take this on too is because they, I, we, we could live separately, but they would be much worse off without the financial support that, that.

[George Camel]

Oh, see, we've changed the, we've changed the riddle now. You're no longer doing this because it benefits you now as well. They need us. So it's okay to have a quid pro quo, but let's call it out that there's benefit to both parties here and that if you cut ties, it would hurt the them and maybe hurt the relationship.

[Caller]

Potentially. But more so, I think the decision. More so when we keep talking about it, the number. When we crunch the numbers and we sit down and me and my husband talk it over, because obviously this comes up. It's really comes down to conversation of, I'm uncomfortable in this apartment because there we want more space. And that is really just a matter of time. It's never really the question of the relationship that we have by them living with us. And I don't know. I honestly, I don't know if I'm.

[George Camel]

Making the right choice by proxy. You've now. You've now taken on the responsibility to prop up their finances artificially. Because if you guys weren't there, how would they cover the rent? What would they do? Would they have to downsize, move?

[Caller]

They would. They would be able to cover it, but they probably wouldn't be able to get out of this situation because the rent is so low since. Because of how long they've lived here.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But, Sarah, have they ever asked. Set you and your husband down and said, we need you to take care of our finances with us. We need some help?

[Caller]

No.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay. All right. Just put a period right there. No, no, no, no.

[Caller]

Out of each other's finances.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Put a period right there. Have they said, we just love having y' all here. We know it's expensive for you, you millennials, to even dream of buying a house. Y' all stay here as long as you want. We love having you and the kids around. Y' all just save up some money and we'll deal with that thing.

[Caller]

Then they. They more so the conversation, if it ever comes up, because it's. It's almost like, taboo. Like, they won't touch finances with us. We won't touch it with them. They never asked us to pay rent. We just started doing it kind of situation. And the only conversation in regards to that that they've had with us is just that, like, maybe it's better if we live separately, because they also get the opinions from family on, like, this scenario. So I'm sure they probably feel that pressure, too. But we're all happy.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Or. Or maybe they want y' all out and they don't know how to say it. Oh, yeah, like, wow, Susie says that y' all should be living on your own. These days. And Janet says her kids had to move out. They might want y' all to go. And you. They just. They just want to be. They're too kind to say it. Maybe. I don't know. But the big. The big thing here, George, you can tell if I'm wrong. I don't hear that you have a problem with his parents. I hear that you and your husband have not agreed on a purpose and a direction for Yalls life. And so you throw around comically big numbers like when we get $200,000 in cash, then we'll leave. Well, you know, when we need to keep doing this and we should pay rent. Y' all are just going a million different directions at the same time.

[George Camel]

How long have you lived there?

[Caller]

It's going on six years.

[George Camel]

And how much is in the Savings account after 6 years?

[Caller]

Years. Our combined net worth now is 250k. But in term, that's across retirement.

[George Camel]

No, how much is in the save? Because you told me you did this to save money.

[Caller]

In this account, savings is 60. Savings is 60.

[George Camel]

So you guys save $10,000 a year in this account, on average.

[Dr. John Deloney]

How much do you make.

[Caller]

Combined? Bill? Our family. Our household income is 160.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You and your husband?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Camel]

And out of that 160 with no.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Rent, you can only save 10 grand. Come on.

[Caller]

No, no, no. In. In the high yield savings. Because if we save each around 20 grand a year across retirement and savings.

[George Camel]

I understand, but the stated goal was not we want to save for retirement, it was we want to be able to get our own place. We need 200 grand. So if we play out the math on this, out of the 200 grand, you have 140 left, which by your math is going 14 more years. 14 more years of living there and we'll have this money. So how old are you guys?

[Dr. John Deloney]

So that's madness. I'll say it for you.

[George Camel]

28, 29. Okay, so by the time we're in our mid-40s, maybe we'll have $200,000. Who knows what home prices will be in New York City by then for a four bedroom.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So according to their latest election, they're gonna be giving them away. So maybe if you'll hang on, it'll be free rent for everyone in New York.

[George Camel]

But I'm playing this crazy scenario out because this has been your reality and it's pointing to the greater problem I have with living with in laws. There's nothing morally wrong about it. I just think you guys have been comfortable for too long. And if you were on your own, you'd go, how can we raise our income? What kind of. How can we climb this ladder that we're on at work in order to make 250,000 to save up? And I think there's something in your spirit that changes when it's on you to do it and you're not comfortable going, well, we can spend a little more. We can doordash. We don't have as many expenses. That's what I've just found to be true. I'm not saying that's true of you guys, but based on the numbers, saving up ten grand a year is not going to get you to your goal in any near future.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And, Sarah, can I ask you one personal question? Just between me and you and George and a couple million people, you can't be fully anchored into a. A boy who, even if he's the father of your kids, who still lives in his mommy's house six years later, not because he has to, but because there's just no other direction.

[Caller]

That's so. No. Okay, so for that, for, for that one. Oh, he just really takes. He really takes on his parents as. I mean, at this point, it's kind of. He takes on his parents as children.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, okay, here's the deal. He needs to take on you. You're his wife. He needs to take on you as priority numero uno. And when y' all are anchored in together and have an established financial life together, then he can be about taking care of his children and his parents. Y' all need to get real about, like what Georgia said, this trajectory. Y' all come up with a real plan and put that real plan into action.

[Caller]

Okay? You guys remember the four walls of a budget. Food, utilities, shelter, and transportation. Right now, I want to focus on food because inflation is driving up the cost of groceries and we're all feeling it. But Aldi shoppers can save up to 36% on an average shopping center trip, which adds up to be about $4,000 a year for a family of four. $4,000. Aldi has what you need at prices that won't bust your budget. From bread and milk to organic produce, fresh meat, and affordable must haves. So stop paying more and start shopping smarter at Aldi, where you'll save with the lowest prices of any national grocery store. Find a store near you today at Aldi US that's a L D I.com us.

[George Camel]

From the Ramsey Network. This is the Ramsey show where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create Amazing relationships. I'm George Camel joined by best selling author Dr. John DeLoney. And we're taking your calls at Triple 8-8 2-55225. Jamie is in Houston. Up next. What's going on, Jamie? How can we help today?

[Caller]

Hi. Okay. I am a woman in my 50s. I was divorced a few years ago after a 30 year marriage. My ex husband just came home one day and told me he was in love with someone else who was 20 years younger than him and he was gone. A big part of my healing over the last has been getting my finances in order and feeling secure that I can take care of myself and my kids. And I've done that with yalls help. Really listening to y' all has been a big part of my recovery.

[George Camel]

Love to hear that. I'm proud of you.

[Caller]

I am now debt free. My house is paid off for retirement. I have a budget. I follow it. I follow it like crazy. I'm on track to be able to retire in probably 10 years or so. Incredible other good thing. I know. And y' all have been a big part of that. You really have. I have three kids. They're all grown and launched and doing great. Okay. I have. I recently started seeing a terrific guy. He is amazing. He's kind and funny and smart and so sweet to me. So much better to me than I've ever any relationship I've ever been in. But he's terrible with money and he's had some bad luck and he's deep in debt and he doesn't want to talk about it with me. He's embarrassed. I know he's ashamed. And I know he knows I'm in a much better financial position than him. But whenever I try to talk about anything related to money, he just totally shuts down. I've sent him all of the Ramsey Solutions stuff. I have loaned him money. I know I probably shouldn't have, but I have. My heart is telling me to rescue this man. I love him and I want to pay off his debts and I have the money to do it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Please don't, Jamie. Please don't. I want to reframe your words.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

He's not the best guy you've ever met. And he's not treating you as better than anyone's ever treated you before. That's not true. You know how I know that? He won't be honest with you and he won't be vulnerable with you and he won't tell you what's actually going on inside his chest, period. And probably he is running Back a different version of the same script your ex just ran on you for 30 years.

[George Camel]

Years.

[Caller]

Well, yeah, you just got, you just nailed it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Please don't try to rescue him. You tried to rescue a man for 30 years.

[Caller]

Yeah, I know. And my, it's like my heart is telling me I don't know exactly how much the debts are, but I do it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I know, but listen, the more you sit there and try to invent stories and put them inside his head, the more you're going to drive yourself crazy. Easy. The only path, I mean, here's the thing. Two paths forward, one path. Just you do you, you're 50 years old, you have a paid off house, you're doing well. I, I, I'm a podcaster, for God's sake. Like, you don't have to listen to me. The other side of this is I've, I've just seen this play out so many times. You can sit down and say, here's the deal. I'm falling in love with you. And you treat me on these different metrics better than anyone's ever treated me before. I refuse to get into any deeper into a relationship with somebody who won't be honest and open and vulnerable with me. I've done that. And I'm through with that life. And so he gets to choose. Does he want to be in a relationship with you or not? That's your other option. And when he says, what's that supposed to mean? Say, I can't get into a relationship with somebody that won't be honest with me. You all have talked about sex. You all have talked about the astros who are back in first place. You have talked about all those things. And he won't be honest about money.

[George Camel]

Which is one of the most important things to you right now is this financial stability that you've succeeded with. And you want to make sure you're partnering with someone who's not going to be an anchor that just drags you to the bottom of an ocean. You've been there, you don't want to be there again.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And male shame comes out in really unhealthy ways. Right? Did we lose you?

[George Camel]

Maybe. Jamie, are you with us?

[Dr. John Deloney]

You still with us?

[George Camel]

Maybe just flabbergasted by our advice. That happens time to time.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Jamie, you still here? You hang up on us.

[George Camel]

All right?

[Dr. John Deloney]

I lost her.

[George Camel]

No, no, Come on, Jamie, Come back. Jamie. Is she there?

[Dr. John Deloney]

See if you can pick her up. We'll pick her up on the next segment.

[George Camel]

I really wanted to finish this. This was a really great Conversation. But, John, talk about seeing past things in relationships when we're in the love phase, a lot of emotions, and we go, well, he's a great guy, but. But there's just this one glaring thing, right? Can I just.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, anytime you say to yourself, I want to rescue. You are creating a hierarchy and hierarchies and I guess a fancier word for hierarchy is scorekeeping. Anytime you create a hierarchy, you're gonna have some challenges in a relationship. Now, if my wife of, I don't know, we're about to celebrate 23 years, she'll rescue me from a thing, right? And I'll go rescue her from a thing, but not. I can't rescue my wife from. If she chose to not be vulnerable or not be honest or whatever. Okay, she's back. Here we go.

[George Camel]

If we got you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Jamie, you're here.

[Caller]

I just want to be clear about something. He's not being dishonest with me.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Oh, I. I know, I know, I know, I know. I'm. I'm overstating it.

[Caller]

For the radio station.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, I'm overstating.

[Caller]

He's know. He knows how important my financial security is to me. He knows how hard I have worked. Okay. And how the trauma. And. Let me just be. Let me. You're exactly right, John. You. You read this in without me even saying it. With my 30 year marriage, I was the primary breadwinner. My husband was cheating behind my back while I was supporting him.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I hate that.

[Caller]

I mean, it was. He knows that. So my current boyfriend knows I have that betrayal trauma. He knows it is deep within me, and he does not. So he's just like, don't talk to her about money. He's asking me to pay off his debt.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Sure.

[Caller]

He didn't ask me to loan him. He just. He just is like, don't worry about my financial situation. I'm fine. I'll handle it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Sure.

[Caller]

But he's. But so it's. I just want to be clear about that.

[Dr. John Deloney]

No, no, no, no, no. I'm not badmouthing him. He. He's. He's living his life, too. Like, I hear me say that. Right. I struggle with being vulnerable all the time. I still do. That's why I talk about it so much, because it's. It's one of my biggest demons. Okay. And so it's. It's. And I'm not saying you're a bad person for wanting to go rescue somebody that, you know, that makes you. That makes you compassionate and empathetic. Pathetic.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But the difference is hey, if your money and my money are ever going to become our money, then we have to talk about it. And I, I just have the, the misfortune slash the honor. Both of those are braided together. Of sitting with people who get out of the long term relationship that ends really traumatically.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And immediately get right back on that same roller coaster. And there's actually a neuroscientific reason why we do that, but that's for another show. But you just get back in cart.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And go down the same roller coaster again.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So he may be amazing and wonderful and God bless you for wanting just to level the field. Hey, look, we're both going to be debt free. I can write you a check. We're going to finish this thing off. What you can't see on it's. It's like this one time, my buddy, his wife had had a baby and I told my wife, hey, I'm going to call a local cleaning company to come in and clean their house. First her and my wife looked at me and was like, are you out of your freaking mind? Like. And I was like, why? And I was like, she's got a new. A newborn. And she goes, would that signal, would. That would signal to her. So you just writing a check to a guy who's already a little bit ashamed about his finances and saying, ah, don't worry, I'm your girlfriend, I'll pay for it all. We'll just drive him further underground. Despite your great intent and love. So all I'm saying is you know this, I know this. You're smart, George. We all know this. This, those deepest secrets that we're trying to hold from each other, to protect each other actually becomes the cancer that kills the whole thing. And so maybe it's. That's the line. Hey, for yours and mine to become ours, we got to put it all on the table and talk about that. Thank you so much for the call, sister.

[George Camel]

Foreign.

[Caller]

Hey, you guys. Health insurance costs are only moving one way and that way isn't down. And if higher costs aren't enough, the wait times to see your doctor are longer. And it's harder than ever to get anything approved through the bureaucracy. So if you feel like the system is working against you, try a biblically based alternative to health insurance. Christian Healthcare Ministries. CHM is a health cost sharing ministry that's helped hundreds of thousands of families like yours take care of over $11 billion in medical bills since 1981. CHM has also helped them stay true to their values and avoid Miles of red tape. And CHM support goes far beyond meeting financial needs. They also help meet spiritual needs. Members become part of a family who will pray with them and, and for them when they experience a medical event. So listen, y' all, there's a better way to take care of healthcare costs. CHM programs start as low as $98 a month. So learn more today and [e-mail] budget. That's chministries.org Buddy Foreign.

[George Camel]

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. Adam's up next in Knoxville, Tennessee. What's going on, Adam?

[Caller]

Hey, guys, thanks for taking the call.

[George Camel]

Sure. How can we help?

[Caller]

Hey, so I've kind of found myself in a predicament. So historically I've got a job that has paid pretty well. I'm primarily commissioned.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But a lot of.

[Caller]

The jobs that I've been working with have kind of dried up at the time. And so salary this year isn't quite as high as it has been in previous years.

[George Camel]

What were you making and what's kind of like a rougher year that you're looking at?

[Caller]

So, which, I mean, my rough year is still not that bad. The rough year, it's going to be about 75, 80. Last year was 120.

[George Camel]

Okay.

[Caller]

And so, so it's, it's gone down a little bit. But again, you know, 80 is still comfortable. We're still, you know, it's not anything bad. Not to mention, you know, I completed babysit 2 last year. I paid off all the, all the trucks, all vehicles and then trying to, you know, I've got everything, I've got about three months saved up. So still kind of lower on baby step three, but, you know, trying to home stretch and. Yeah, exactly. So trying to look ahead and save money for. I got two kids trying to save for their college and our retirement. So with, you know, with paying off the debts, I haven't really saved much for retirement. So, you know, obviously in the statistics of it, I'm a little bit behind on that. But my wife's a stay at home and I'd like to keep it that way. But something has come up and I'm looking at changing job opportunities because I'm really unhappy with my current position. So the situation with this new job is it's a, it's an ownership track. But the first two years are, it's a, I guess you can call it. Your franchise fee is sweat equity, if you will.

[George Camel]

What kind of job is this?

[Caller]

It's a, it's a retail. I'd be taking Up a retail position. It's a local place here. The first two years it'd be about 50,000, you know, and my wife is really nervous about me taking this position. Long term, the average salary is about 450 to 500 a year.

[George Camel]

So long term, is that what they're just telling you or is that a reality? Because if I was trying to sell you on getting in my franchise, I'd be telling you the same thing.

[Caller]

No, it's actually verified with quite. It's. That's on the low end.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So this, this seems like a no, no, no brainer. What's. Is she upset? Is she worried about the actual drop in income for two years or is she worried about.

[Caller]

Well, it's, it's part of it, but also part of her responsibility. So like I said, she's a stay at home mom. But with that, I'm gonna be working 60 to 65 hours a week, six days a week, and she doesn't necessarily want me to do that and the money's not necessarily worth it to her. So. For me though, looking at my kids, college and our retirement, you know, I think it makes it worth it. I don't hesitate at the work side of it. I don't mind the 60 to 65 hours a week, but she's gonna be home with the kids and she doesn't want to do that.

[George Camel]

Yeah, she sees the next two years as I'm a single mom and I'm not going to see my husband and our lifestyle is going to take a big cut. Things are going to be stressful financially on top of that. I mean, that's reasonable on her side. I'd be feeling the same thing if I were her.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But also the other side of it is, I mean I, I, both me and my wife have had these same things just on either side. Like, hey, I'm going back to school and so I'm going to keep my full time job, but I'm also going to be in grad school full time, which means we're going to high five each other during the week and then hopefully I can see you on a Sunday because I'm writing papers all day Saturday. Like sometimes you do that in a mirror marriage. Is there a. I don't know, man. Like, I often wonder if there's a deeper conversation here, which is I, I'm gonna make something up. Okay? So don't take this to heart, but does she not like who you become when you're working six out, six days a week, a whole year, that do you not help out when you do have a few hours around the house. Like. So is she looking at a total lifestyle change or is she. I hate to cast this on your wife, man, but is she kind of selfish and like I don' Want to give up two years for all of the peace and security this is going to give us down the road?

[Caller]

Yeah, essentially. And she started saying more things that are concerning to me, you know, because it's really important for me to look ahead and save, you know, like I said, for my kids and you know, for our retirement. And she's, you know, she's not interested in saving for the kids and doesn't want to save her there their, you know, college or anything because you know, she said she took out student loans so they can too, which she didn't finish college. And you know, for me it's really important to, if I can, if I'm able to, you know, to be able to provide that for my kids. I don't necessarily know.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So give me, give me an example of another situation that you like away from kids and away from this job where y' all are not on the same page. Page.

[Caller]

Is as our word. We're not on the same page.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yep, just give me a random one.

[Caller]

It's been, that's honestly the only time we ever really.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Everything else is just coming along.

[Caller]

Family. We, yeah, we've seen, you know, differently on family but as far as the values. So you know, she feels something sometimes that if she's not the priority that, you know, if something else is a priority. So in, in that sense, work or you know, if she's not getting defended or whatnot.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, so that's what I was getting at earlier is it may be that she's a selfish person and no one's going to know this but you that and, and very short sighted. I don't want you going to work to build into this company that will eight or nine exits return. Right. I don't want you doing that for two years because I can't imagine two years of having to parent six days a week by myself. Maybe that's the case. And I like getting my nails and hair done and I refuse to go two years without getting that done so that the rest of our family's future can be financially secure. Maybe that's the case. Or like I was saying, maybe she already feels like when you're busy or that maybe she feels like you're already, she's already a mistress to your job. When you get to working a lot, you're not pleasant to be around. Or you come home and just pop on the couch and start researching golf clubs or I don't. I don't know. I'm just making stuff up. But that's the question I'd want to get to.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

And is there a reality to the situation where you guys can't afford to live on 50 grand or she has.

[Dr. John Deloney]

To go back to work for two years and this is just a two year. Everybody's making. Everyone's making concessions for two years so that we can get to this place where I own the. This company. I'm making 400 grand a year. And we have an entirely different family tree because of that.

[Caller]

Yeah. And that's what I've tried to communicate to her, which is I. I'm more pleasant to be around whenever, you know, I feel fulfilled in my job, which I haven't been recently, but I still do. I mean most of the dishes, most of the laundry, you know, whenever I come back. But it's, it's. I've kind of gotten it pretty bad. 20 where you know, I've conditioned her to. I let her sleep in in the mornings. I get my, you know, my kid ready for. Ready for the morning and you know, I'm back well before five.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Even using the language. I condition her and let her. Makes her sound a lot more like my Australian shepherd than your wife. Right?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And so maybe even just back. I honestly, I think y' all need to go sit with a marriage counselor because I think the issues here are deeper than should I take this job or that that job.

[George Camel]

You guys aren't aligned on a lot of things and money and family and priorities. That's. There's a lot there you said, well, we're pretty much on the same page except for these three major areas. And you told me that she doesn't even she want. She's fine going into debt for the whole family. And you just told me you crawled out of baby step two.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

So there's already some differing, you know, tracks here that worry me. But I, I think there's you. There's truth to both of your situations.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

You see a financial future that could change your family tree and she sees two years of hell.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

And both things can be true.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And just this is me just. Just loving you as best I can. Not being aligned on family and kids and money. Those are three real big issues. Which I would say down the like means we're not aligned on the big rocks. Right. Though you got to be. You got to be on the same page on this, this.

[George Camel]

And I would do your homework on this franchise. I'm not saying it's too good to be true. But I am wondering. Adam seems like a sharp young guy, but why Adam and not the next? Why is there not a line of people going, I can make 400 grand in two years. Sign me up. So I would just ask a lot of questions before I went, no, no, this guy told me, I'll make 400 grand in two years no matter what. That part worries me as well, George.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, it's tough when I don't know.

[George Camel]

We don't know. This is the Ramsey Show. I get it. Switching banks is a pain in the you know what. But if your bank doesn't line up with your money goals, it's time to make the switch to Fairwinds Credit Union. Let's listen. You guys know how I feel about big banks. They make money when you stay broke, charging you overdraft fees, pushing credit cards and telling you debt is normal. And that's why I only work with folks who help you, not just profit off of you. Fairwinds is different.

[Caller]

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[George Camel]

And they share our values. They even advertise with billboards saying they want their members to be debt free.

[Caller]

So they built the Smart checking and.

[George Camel]

Savings bundle just for rent. Ramsay fans, you can open your account online in minutes and here's what you get. Free checking with no minimums and no monthly fees. Savings with a high apy to help you in baby step one and beyond. And a mobile app that actually makes sense. Plus you also get access to over 33,000 fee free ATMs and more than 5,000 affiliated branches nationwide. So don't settle for a bank that slows your progress down. Choose one that's built to to help you win with money. Go to Fairwinds.org Ramsey and open your Smart Bundle today.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Fairwinds is federally insured by the ncu.

[George Camel]

The Ramsey show question of the day is brought to you by Y Refi. Let's be real. Defaulted private student loans don't go away on their own. But why Refi will help you explore a low fixed rate loan based on your unique Circumstances. Go to yrefi.com ramsey today to learn more. That's the letter Y r e f y.com Ramsey may not be available in all states.

[Dr. John Deloney]

All right. Today's question comes from Kimberly in Florida. Kimberly writes, I really got screwed. I gave my IRA funds to a precious metals company. Oh Lord. To invest. And after they Finished with me. I had less than half of what I gave them. I kept asking what their fees were and they told me about the fees for the depository and conservator, but never mentioned their fee, which was extra. They also sold me coins instead of Bullion. I am 77 and have to take out RMDs. I will be getting only half of what I would have had had I left the funds in my Iraq ways. Do I have any recourse against them to get my money back?

[George Camel]

Oh boy.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Dude scams, George, are getting worse and worse and worse and worse, particularly in.

[George Camel]

This demographic 100 and I don't even know this might be a legitimate company that she did business with and not like the world. And yeah, she just lost money because she didn't understand the fine print. She didn't understand that this money was being invested. Invested well.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And let's be honest, Kimberly, I love you hon, but I want to assume this company was. It's not. It's never a good company, never good business deal. But they weren't trying to scam you. But when you keep asking what their fees are and at the same time give them every single thing they're asking for, then you are communicating with your, with your actions. I don't really care what the fees are. Here's everything. Everything. And so had you gone back to do this again, you would have said, hey, I'm not giving you one penny until I have a piece of paper here that says exactly what your fees are. What's the fee schedule, what do you get fees for, what's the past ROIs, what's the. All that kind of stuff. But you gave them all your money and then asked questions and it was too late.

[George Camel]

Yeah. And a lot of these scams, they generally involve inflated prices for coins and bullion. They switch these promise metals for lower value metals. And there's all kinds of misleading claims about tax advantages and how it's so great to do this and it's super wise to do with your money, by the way.

[Dr. John Deloney]

The dollar's all going away. It's all coming down. You better hold on to gold coins.

[George Camel]

Fear mongering.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

So there's a lot of issues here and they're predatory toward elderly folks like our friend Kimberly here. So you're in retirement, they got a bunch of money. That's a great target demo for scammers when you. They know you're not going to read the fine print. They know you're not going to come after them. So I don't Know how much recourse you have? You can talk to an attorney. I don't know the company. We don't have a lot of info here. I don't. I also don't think it's worth your time to spend the next two years fighting this because I don't think you're going to get your money back, especially if it was a legitimate company. And they went, no, no, here's what happened. She invested the money. She knew there was risk here. She signed her name saying that we could invest this knowing she could lose it all. So I'm sorry, you, you went through this. This might be the biggest stupid tax you've ever paid. And I hope you stay away from any of these companies ever again. And for anyone out there thinking about getting into precious metals because of fear of the headlines in the economy, they are marketing this stuff so hard right now because this is their Super Bowl. When the economy looks spooky, you see the billboards to trade in and buy some gold because it's somehow going to save you in an apocalypse. And no time in hell history has that ever worked out. So stay away. I don't have any gold. I don't think John has any gold.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Not even on my faucets.

[George Camel]

Not even jewelry? No, no. You've got a. I think it's a plastic bracelet he's wearing.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Exactly.

[George Camel]

There we go. All right, Mary is in Los Angeles up next on the line. What's going on? Mary?

[Caller]

Hi, thank you for taking my call. I'm very happy to be able to speak to you.

[George Camel]

You too.

[Caller]

I am, thank you. I am, I am a 56 year old woman, single, no kids, live alone, and I am approximately about $75,000 in debt. And my question is, I have an opportunity to early withdraw a portion of my pension plan. I have a pension, an early portion of my pension plan up to about $22,000. And I'm considering on doing that because I want to. I have some chunky monthly payments that are slowing down. The snowball method I'm trying to use through the baby steps which I'm trying to apply in my life. And it's going, if I do that, it'll allow me to expedite, take these chunkier payments and put it towards my much bigger debt. I'm just wondering if that's not a good idea. I'm very leery of going down the road of my pension plan even though there's two parts to my pension plan, but this is one of them. And I'm just wondering if that's just not a good idea, do I leave it alone? And the tax benefits. The disadvantage to this is obviously I would have to pay taxes on it.

[George Camel]

But is there an early withdrawal penalty? Are you saying you can take this portion out tax without any penalty, but you'll still pay taxes?

[Caller]

Yes, that is correct. I can. I can. It's a hardship plan that they are offering.

[George Camel]

Is this a qualified hardship?

[Caller]

It's. Yeah, if it's a qualified hardship for 10%, they. They basically waive the. The 10% federal early withdrawal borrow the federal taxes. That 10% penalty you get, that gets waived. But obviously I still have to pay all the other taxes. Of course, you know. Yeah, all the other federal taxes, which I'm being told you can pay it over three years.

[George Camel]

Okay, well, I'll tell you, I don't love this plan, number one, because it really doesn't change Mary's behavior, which is what got us here. It feels like a shortcut. And we go, wow, we did something. Now we feel a little more comfortable. So I don't know how intense you have been about paying off debt. You said you're in your 50s?

[Caller]

Yeah, I'm 56.

[George Camel]

56. And how much? 75 in debt. What kind of debt is that?

[Caller]

It's. It's debt that's basically broken up between, you know, I have a car loan, a HELOC home equity line of credit, you know, and a consolidation loan. I have some medical bills. And I did. Back in 2016, I did take out a 401k loan, which was the biggest mistake of my life. And that's. That's sort of stuck into a weekly withdrawal from my paycheck every week. And it's not a huge amount. And that's where I went wrong. And they won't let me change.

[George Camel]

You're still paying this off nine years later?

[Caller]

Yes, yes.

[George Camel]

And are you able to.

[Caller]

I don't think it's that fast.

[George Camel]

So how much is this 401k loan balance right now?

[Caller]

It's at about. It's between 24 and 25,000.

[George Camel]

Even after nine years?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Camel]

See, this feels like another. Another shortcut scheme from Mary to go, well, I'll just rob my retirement, which is going to unplug all of the growth, give you less money in retirement. So that's my fear, is that you end up retiring broke and never change the behavior that God us here and continue to stay in debt for the next nine years.

[Caller]

Right. I have been committed to. I'm going through trying to save. I'm trying to save my small emergency fund right now. I've done my budget. I've looked at everything. I've been diligently working on this.

[George Camel]

But how much do you have saved up so far?

[Caller]

I. I'm not. I'm at about $600 of my emergency fund. My, my small emergency fund. My first steps of my thousand dollars. Your starter y. Yeah.

[George Camel]

Okay. How much do you make?

[Caller]

My take home after taxes is about $79,000. Before taxes it's 112.

[George Camel]

Okay. So you have a great income. I'm confused where all the money's going. Even with minimum debt payments, are your expenses just out of control?

[Caller]

I'm a little house poor. What's your mortgage payment decisions? My mortgage. Well, I don't feel my mortgage payment is on. Is out of control pro. It's, I think within. Within my means. It's a. It's 23, 2378 and I roll in my, my escrow, my, you know, my taxes and sure. It's rolled into that. Yeah, my insurance and my taxes.

[George Camel]

I think we need to make way in this budget and do better than saving 600 bucks and being still in this debt. I would not cash out this portion of the pension to knock out some of these debts. It's going to make you feel like you did something but it's a drop in the bucket as far as the total debt and the behavior change needed to get out of this. I might consider selling the car to clear some of the debt and downsizing, but I would personally would not cash out that pension. If you're tired of living paycheck to paycheck wondering where your money's going, your first step is getting on a budget. Our team is hosting free budgeting trainings this month that you can jump on on. You'll learn step by step how to make and stick to a budget using every dollar plus, you can get your biggest budgeting questions answered in a live Q and A. So spots are limited. Get on it. Sign up for [e-mail] webinar Heather is in Jacksonville, Florida. Coming up. What's going on, Heather?

[Caller]

Hey.

[George Camel]

Hey. How can John and I help?

[Caller]

Okay, so my question is I am a single mother of three little boys. I rent. Currently, I do not own my. I've done really good to not accumulate debt over my young life. I just turned 30 this year. My car is paid for. The only things that I have as far as debt is concerned is just over $3,000 left of my student loan. And my question is how Do I get ahead? It seems like in this economy I am just breaking even every paycheck and I don't really see owning a home as being in my near future. And it's a huge goal of mine. It's something I really want to give to my set that example for them. So just wondering how to to get ahead.

[George Camel]

I love it. Well, can I just tell you, you're doing a great job so far.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

George is the goat when it comes to the money stuff. But can I just say the example you're setting for those boys is it's family tree changing.

[George Camel]

Regardless of whatever you they inherit or whatever you pass down to them. They're. They're watching a warrior of a mom. Provide for them. Work hard, be an incredible mom.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Be there, man. Yeah. You're amazing.

[Caller]

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

[Dr. John Deloney]

No, like for real, don't blow over that. You're a good mom, okay?

[Caller]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I don't care what the divorce paper said. I don't care what that guy told you. You're a good mom. Okay?

[Caller]

Yes, sir. I appreciate that.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And don't say sir. George is older than me and neither of us are as old as Kelly. Jeez. Right. Go ahead.

[George Camel]

Under the bus. She went ahead.

[Dr. John Deloney]

George.

[George Camel]

Okay, so how much do you make right now?

[Caller]

My take Home Monthly is $2,728.

[George Camel]

Okay. I love how exactly that tells me, you know, your numbers.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, that tells me how tight things are.

[Caller]

Right, exactly.

[George Camel]

Not 29. We don't have that extra dollar.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Kids.

[George Camel]

How old are the kids?

[Caller]

I have a nine year old, a five year old and a two year old. They're all boys.

[George Camel]

Party. Okay, what does child care look like while you, you're at work?

[Caller]

Yes. So my oldest son is able to spend most weekdays at my mom's. She does work from home and he's fairly self sufficient though. Doesn't require too much. The two younger boys are in daycare, so that is running me about $800 a month split between their father and I.

[George Camel]

Okay, that's my next question. Is there any alimony, child support coming in on top of the 2,700?

[Caller]

No. So we do have 50. 50 of the two youngest. My oldest son is mine only and there is no financial.

[George Camel]

Okay, so the only help is you're splitting the daycare cost.

[Caller]

Yes, sir.

[George Camel]

And Your portion is 800?

[Caller]

Yes, sir.

[George Camel]

Okay. And how much is your rent?

[Caller]

My rent is a thousand dollars.

[George Camel]

Okay.

[Caller]

Which I know is crazy in this market. That's great.

[George Camel]

Well, you're making 2700. So the next question is, I feel like you are on top of your expenses. You don't sound like you're spending frivolously here.

[Caller]

Correct.

[George Camel]

So the next question is, how do we get the income up to create enough margin to get out of debt faster? Knock out this 3,000, get you an emergency fund of probably six months because you're a single mom of three. Let's get to that number.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And boys, everything's.

[George Camel]

Yes. And the boys. And they'll be eating like just, I don't know, Costco size steak packs pretty soon. So what are you doing for. For work.

[Caller]

So I am a service coordinator for a family owned furniture retailer.

[George Camel]

Okay. So if you looked at your skill set, what jobs in your area could pay you more for using those same skills?

[Caller]

So I do feel like most of my professional career I've just been kind of chasing, which I think this is kind of my generation in general. We're just chasing that next dollar raise. Who's going to pay us a dollar more?

[George Camel]

I want you to.

[Caller]

Bigger. Yes. You mean additionally to what I'm doing.

[George Camel]

Now or a change, A total change. Instead of going, who can pay me a dollar more? It's how do I make $80,000 a year with my skill set?

[Caller]

Right. I would say that my skill set is mostly in dealing with people. I've been in service and coordination roles forever. I was a bank teller and an audit coordinator and a trust funding coordinator. I did not go to college, so I do not have a degree that's going to help me as far as my resume is concerned. But I am good with people. I'm a good listener. I try to take care of people. And I think that served me well throughout my professional career so far.

[George Camel]

Absolutely. And there's a lot of jobs out there, even without a degree that I think could pay you more and get you making progress a lot faster. And so I'm going to gift you our friend Ken Coleman's book, find the work you're wired to do. It comes with a get clear career assessment. I want you to take, take that and start to get, start to dream a little bit. I feel like you have been in survival mode for probably a long time and you haven't really got to focus on Heather and go, what does Heather want to be doing? What Heather. What could Heather be doing that could provide. What if you had a $4,000 take home pay? I mean that would change your life.

[Caller]

Absolutely.

[George Camel]

Because you told me your goal is to, to have a home one day. And so the prerequisites are get out of debt, get the emergency fund in place. Let's begin investing for the future into our retirement account. And then let's begin saving up this down payment. And maybe by the time you're in your mid-30s or heading toward 40, you've. You're in a totally different place financially right now.

[Caller]

As. As far as credit is concerned, that is another major area of concern for me. I do have a very low credit score. Not because I've done anything wrong, but just because I haven't used it. My payment history is 100%. My credit age is 11 years and five months, and I have three closed accounts and one open account. The only reason I've kept the student loan account open is just so I have credit.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Heather, Heather, do you know what my credit score is?

[Caller]

What?

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's, it's. It. Zero. None. You know what George's is? None.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Like, you're good. You're good.

[George Camel]

It's not because we're really smart. We just, once we paid off debt, we just stopped going back into it. And so that's what's going to happen for you. Once you pay off these student loans, your credit score, it might dip down a little because credit score system is so stupid that if you pay off your debt and be responsible, they ding you for it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

But then over time, over after. Yeah. Once you close all of your credit accounts, you have no credit cards open whatsoever. After about six to 12 months, your credit score will become indeterminable. And so not having a score is not a bad thing. Having a low score can hurt you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So can I, can I throw just some options to keep your eyes open around your local area?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I want you to look at or consider things like, is there any local community colleges or universities where you could get. Because what you have is the equivalent of an entry level salary, right?

[Caller]

Correct.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Could I get a job at a place working with people as a receptionist, as a personal assistant, as a fill in the blank, as a residence life coordinator. Right. Where I'm just, I'm answering phones, I'm taking care of people, but also allows me to get free, free tuition? Or can I get a job at a local school district that also allows my kids to go into child care here or.

[Caller]

Yeah, that's definitely something I could look into.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Or at an apartment complex where we could all live for free and it's a thousand more dollars. Like, I'll run the front desk of this apartment complex and yada yada, and then they take care of your house. Housing too. So for single moms in your situation where it's just, I mean like you said like at the beginning of the call, every dollar matters. What are these places? And they don't exist for everybody. I know that. And it's not a panacea. But where are those places where I can double and triple dip? I'll work here and also I get to get a free credential over time or I'll work here and my kids get to go to school here also. Sometimes you take a reduced salary for that privilege. But over time, man, if you could end up working at a university for four years just doing entry level work, but you end with a bachelor's degree that you don't pay, pay for, how amazing, right?

[Caller]

Yeah, that's not something I've thought of.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And then you stay there and then your kids have a discount when they go to school there. So it's, it's, it's just asking some of these questions. Let's think bigger than if you're into service and that's what you like to do. Where are some places where I can be of service and they've got these extraneous benefits that could support me as.

[George Camel]

Well and reach out to your community, your friends, your family and see what jobs are out there where they're working, are they hiring? Hiring? And start digging around these job sites and you'll see your skills listed there. And yes, some of them might say degree required, but you might apply and they go, oh my gosh, Heather's amazing. She's got the experience, she has the skills. Forget the degree, come on board, we need it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I worked at one university, my highest paid person on my team and I had a humongous team, did not have a degree. She was a gangster and she was my highest paid team member that year. So it's possible. Sure, because I've lived it.

[George Camel]

Keep fighting Heather. These days the Internet is chock full of so called investing adventures. Advice from random goobs with zero qualifications. Listen folks, you deserve guidance from someone who knows what the flip they're talking about. That's why I recommend the SmartVestor program. SmartVestors can help you find a professional financial advisor who can teach you to make your own best decisions with your own money. Get [e-mail] smart again. Ramseysolutions.com smartvestor Ramsey Solutions is a paid non client promoter of participating pros.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Learn [e-mail].

[George Camel]

From the Ramsey Network this is the Ramsey show where we help people build wealth do work that they love and create amazing relationships. I'm George Camel, joined by the host of the Dr. John DeLoney Show. Dr. John DeLoney. We're taking your calls at 888825 5225. You call us. We'll do our best to help you take the right next step for your life and your money. Samantha's up in Dayton, Ohio. What's going on, Samantha?

[Caller]

So I have a 20 year old son that I want to take on vacation and he told me because he has debt, that you guys would tell him no.

[George Camel]

Oh, who's footing the bill for the vacation?

[Caller]

So I am a baby millionaire and I am footing the whole bill because of between his schooling, my schooling, and my daughter's schooling, the. You know, Covid, we weren't able to go on vacation. So I figure this is our last vacation before they all start their lives and move out. And so why the nest?

[Dr. John Deloney]

Samantha, how long have you been his mom?

[Caller]

20 years.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You know by now when he's fibbing to you.

[Caller]

He is not. He is a very dead serious person when he talks.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, well, he is confused because we've never once said, just because you owe money, you cannot go on a fully funded vacation with your millionaire mother.

[Caller]

Well, he just feels that. So he's supposed to close on a house next week. I don't plan on going on vacation until September of 26.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Why? You're a millionaire.

[Caller]

Just because of their schedules, with a little bit of schooling, like, I'll get done with my doctorate.

[George Camel]

Hold on.

[Caller]

They'll get done with.

[George Camel]

I'm confused, Samantha. You told me that he. He won't go on vacation because he's in debt, and we said not to. But he's buying a home while he. He's in debt.

[Caller]

So his debt is his home. That is the only debt he has.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Hey, you tell him to leave us out of this. He's trying to blame us because he doesn't want to go on vacation with his mama.

[George Camel]

Ding, ding, ding. Is that the case?

[Caller]

He does. No, he says he does. I've asked him that question.

[George Camel]

He's listening to the show for 10 seconds. He knows when we say, don't go on debt while you're. Don't go on vacation while you're in debt. We mean baby step two, consumer debt. So you're telling me he's.

[Caller]

But he still feels that any debt is bad debt.

[George Camel]

So he's not gonna. He's not gonna go on vacation for 15 years. If he has a 15 year mortgage.

[Caller]

Well, he has 65k. He's putting down on 160k house.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, okay, listen, I have to tell you, six years, I have to tell you this. I've worked with 20 year olds my entire career. This is is his sideways way of telling you, I don't want to go on a vacation with you, period. He's gonna have a hundred thousand dollar mortgage. Even Dave Ramsey would not tell him to not go on vacation. And by the way, Dave is on vacation right now. Like, like, like that's what me and George are here.

[George Camel]

Even if this vacation cost him money, we'd say, hey, have a good time, budget for it, cash.

[Dr. John Deloney]

We wouldn't tell him to not pay, just budget, budget for it. Put 63,000 down in the house and go have some fun with your mom.

[Caller]

That is what I'll tell him. But he's pretty serious.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Debt bothers him, so it's allowed to bother him. He just can't blame anybody else. But the dude in the mirror.

[George Camel]

Yeah, don't throw John and I under the bus. Don't sully our good names.

[Dr. John Deloney]

We don't have great names.

[George Camel]

George, it's fine.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But yeah, he's got to own this. Say, I don't want to. I'm so paranoid about my $100,000 mortgage that I don't feel like I could.

[George Camel]

Go, oh yeah, does he have a girlfriend?

[Dr. John Deloney]

Does he have a girlfriend?

[Caller]

No.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, so it's just, it's just him.

[Caller]

It's just him.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay.

[George Camel]

Is he a fuddy duddy? Does he enjoy anything in his life? Because I don't know many 20 year olds that have 65k who are like, I'd like to be a homeowner.

[Caller]

He's a different child. He splits cars on the side and works a full time job. So. Okay, he's just been trying to rake in money to make sure that he can be set for life.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Here's what I want you to tell him, Samantha. I want you to tell him that you talked to the Dave Ramsey guys and they approved his expenditures or his, his time away. But then I want you to look at him and say, and I don't care what Dave Ramsey says because I'm your mother. It would mean a big. It would be a great deal to me if you would go on this trip with me.

[Caller]

I surely will.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Will you say that to him?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Camel]

Where's the vacation?

[Caller]

We want to take a cruise out of Miami for six days.

[Dr. John Deloney]

We do or you do?

[Caller]

We've gone on cruises every other year, so they picked the destination of going down out of Miami to the Caribbean. Both my kids, including. Yes.

[George Camel]

Hold on.

[Caller]

He.

[George Camel]

He picked the destination and he's gone every other year. But all of a sudden he's like, no, no, no, no, mama, I can't go.

[Caller]

It's just. Yeah. He keeps saying, I'm about to close on this house any day. And that's a lot of debt.

[George Camel]

Is he stressed out about this job that has.

[Caller]

I think he's a little stressed just because it's the unknown. But he has PTO that'll still pay him while he's on vacation. I told him he'd still be fine. He could still make his expenses. But he's like, I could just get a second job during those six days and at a, like a construction company company and help pull my debt down more.

[George Camel]

I'm, I'm weirded out that he's that concerned about this debt. I took a call this week about a guy who was $100,000 from. In debt from day trading. And so for him to be concerned about a mortgage that's $100,000, there's guys who have car payments bigger than his mortgage who will call into the show this week. So I just think there's something behind this. I think that's what we need to get to the right rude of because I don't think it has anything to do with money unless he's truly stepping into home ownership as a young guy and he's scared. He's going, I don't know what this is going to cost me. And I feel like stepping away from this is a bad idea. And I got new expenses in my life. But it's not the actual expense that's bothering him of this vacation.

[Caller]

I don't think it's. I think it's just the unknown since you don't know what's going to happen when you move to a new house.

[George Camel]

But he's got the money. It sounds like he's got no debt and a fully funded emergency fund he's investing for his future. He sounds like he's got the baby steps. He's down pat.

[Caller]

And he does.

[Dr. John Deloney]

He's 20. That puts him ahead of 95% of all Americans.

[Caller]

He's further ahead than I was at 20.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, me too, by a. By a hundred miles, maybe. You tell him this, that, hey, this may be a great opportunity for you to take him to breakfast and say, hey, I've taught you how to live financially and you've picked up those messages. Messages from me. But I also Want to talk to you about a life well lived. And an important part of a life well lived is knowing when to exhale and put down the pen or put down the hammer and just go see nature. Get on a boat. Go let somebody else cook your meals for a few days. Go meet some new friends.

[George Camel]

Does he like to read books?

[Caller]

No. No, He's a gearhead. That's all he does is play with cars all day long.

[George Camel]

Okay, so he's got his hobby and he's happy with it. Well, I think you have a conversation with them and say, listen, this is one of these experiences I want to have as you step into adulthood. We know there's not many vacations left. I got all the expenses covered. If you have any fears about home ownership, I'm happy to talk about those with you. I'm happy to help, but I would. It would really mean a lot to me as your mom if this was our last one big vacation as you step into homeownership, let's celebrate it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And then as a good millionaire mom next year, you have to give them the same speech. Just one. One more vacation. And then the year after that, you're going to have to be like, all right, listen, listen. One more vaca. Like, you got to keep doing this indefinitely.

[Caller]

I promise I can do that.

[George Camel]

Who's the other child involved? You have another son or daughter?

[Caller]

I have a daughter. She's 18. She's in a master's program.

[Dr. John Deloney]

She's for sure going, isn't she?

[Caller]

Oh, yeah. She was like, sign me up.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Exactly.

[George Camel]

Worst case, mother, daughter trip. Best case, maybe she can convince him sisters have a way of getting under brother's skin. Maybe she's the chicken. Push his buttons a little bit. Get him riled up. So here's a plot twist no one warns you about. You budget for the big trip and you thought of everything. But then, boom, you're at the airport trying to buy a phone charger that costs more than the checkpoint bag fee. Welcome to summer, the season of surprise spending and overpriced everything. But don't let it catch you slipping like some dollar store flip flops. All right, Stay on top of your budget with the EveryDollar app. It's the easiest way to make a plan for your money and give every dollar a job. Basically, it's you telling your money what to do instead of wondering where it went. Like, how did I spend $40 on pistachio popsicles? Yeah, the plot twist is real, but with every dollar, you'll stay a second step ahead so go download the EveryDollar app for free in the App Store or Google Play today. Investing may seem complicated, complicated or confusing, but it doesn't have to be that way. Whether you're a complete beginner or you're looking for next level strategies, we've got the Ramsey Investing Hub for you with tools and information that can help you invest with confidence and clarity. So go to ramseysolutions.com investing to check it out or click the link in the description. If you're listening on YouTube or podcast, Katie is up next in Columbus, Ohio. What's going on, Katie?

[Caller]

Hi there. Hi, George and John. My question is, should me and my husband continue. Continue our debt snowball if he may be losing his be out of work in 90 days?

[George Camel]

Oh, wow. How imminent is this?

[Caller]

Well, he was just told today that he either needs to find another position within the organization or he needs to or he'll be let go in 90 days from his current position.

[George Camel]

Wow. What's the cause of this?

[Caller]

They are canceling out that position.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So, I mean, I guess the first thing I would do if I was him would be to get another job in that organization so he can keep a paycheck coming while he figures out what's next, right?

[Caller]

Yes. And that's what he's planning to do.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Great, great, great, great.

[George Camel]

Are they wanting to keep him on board and put him in another role or they does the writing on the wall, hey, we don't want you here.

[Caller]

No. Usually for somebody in his position, they would have just like walked into the door. But because of his relationship with like, administration, they actually gave him 90 days and they want him to stay within the hospital.

[George Camel]

Okay, what's he making right now?

[Caller]

About 105.

[George Camel]

Okay. And are you working outside the home?

[Caller]

I am.

[George Camel]

What do you make?

[Caller]

Yes. So including my VA benefits, I make one set. 173.

[George Camel]

173?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Camel]

Wow. Way to go.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Did y' all are crushing it. I'm a quarter million dollars.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

How much debt do you have?

[Caller]

We had a plan. Our debt without the house is 200,000 and then with the house is about 400.

[George Camel]

Okay. What kind of debts? The 200.

[Caller]

This includes like student loans, some loans that we took out the vehicle, and then just like some. Some other little things we paid out. Paid off a good chunk. Like we don't have any credit cards anymore. Anything like that.

[George Camel]

Yeah. What's the current rate? If your husband kept his job, how soon would you guys be free of that? 200,000 in consumer debt.

[Caller]

If he kept his job in the next four years, including the house, the way the rate that we're going.

[George Camel]

Okay. Because making a quarter million, if this has been the case case, I feel like you guys could knock out more than 50k a year, which is the current track you're on.

[Caller]

Absolutely. And we've been very diligent about just living within our means, not eating out. We, we used to have a sixteen hundred dollar a month food bill. We have five boys, we've gotten that down to eleven hundred. And we just been really, really tight our budget.

[George Camel]

How much money do you guys have in savings right now?

[Caller]

We have about five. In our emergency fund, we have about five. We had to use some recently for an emergency.

[George Camel]

Okay, so you've been doing the baby steps out of order. You know, baby step, 1,000 bucks. Anything beyond that starts going toward the debt, you have more than that saved up. So we would tell most people in this case that, hey, if there's a, if you're in storm mode or stork mode, if you have baby on the way, those are the two, two times to pause the debt snowball. And so if he knows for sure he won't have a job, then I would pause that debt snowball. Just make minimum payments on the debts and just stack up cash to cover you guys until he has stable income again.

[Caller]

Okay. Can I add that if I'm just the one paying like our bills and our minimum, we would have about $3,000 less monthly.

[George Camel]

Okay.

[Caller]

That we could put towards debt. So, so should we just save that still if he's not working or should we just.

[George Camel]

You're saying even without his income.

[Caller]

Correct.

[George Camel]

Okay, so if he, if he lost his income today, you're making your 173. You'd still have three grand left over. So you're saying really, we're go. We're okay. Is your job stable?

[Caller]

I'm a health care provider, so I can easily find another position much quicker than okay.

[George Camel]

Yeah, if you're in a good position financially where you can continue that snowball. Absolutely. But if it was a situation where you're not going to be able to cover your bills, well, that's different. And so if you can cover all of your expenses, plus some, plus cover the minimums, plus throw some of the debt, I would continue. And all that will do is just slow down your debt snowball until he has gainful employment again.

[Caller]

Okay.

[George Camel]

So I'm good with that plan. I would prefer you guys keep, you know, push play on the debt snowball and not pause it because I want to see you guys out of debt real soon. In fact, I want to see it done in two years. If he, if he can keep this soon come up. I think two years is the goal at most.

[Caller]

I, I, I agree and God has blessed us tremendously. And I also, I can bonus and so that, you know, when I, if I bonus then we just plan to put all that to, to the debt as well.

[George Camel]

I love it. Yeah. And if it, I would push, I would do that regardless of if he keeps the job or not or if he gets another one, I would get that bonus. Work as much overtime as you can and clean up this mess because you guys are too successful to be hanging on to this debt. So I'm rooting for you and I wish him the best on the job search. Greg is up next down the road from us in Nashville, Tennessee. What's going on, Greg?

[Caller]

Hey, how's it going? I listen to y' all the videos all the time, so thanks for taking my call.

[George Camel]

Oh, awesome. How can we help today?

[Caller]

Yeah, well, basically you just want y' all to kind of help me settle an internal debate about what to do with my 401k kind of going forward. So I just quick understanding. I'm a 29 year old engineer. I work for a Firm that's an ESOP. So 100%, I'm fully owned. And so basically you're buying company stock with the retirement option. And so they put in, if you put in 5%, they'll match up to 4%. So I put in 9. So I'm getting an aggregate total of 13% towards 401K. And I do a Roth 401K option, so it's after taxes.

[George Camel]

Great.

[Caller]

Well, so we got our ESOP statements just the other week and I'm at $100,000 saved up for retirement.

[George Camel]

Way to go.

[Caller]

Which I was very excited about. But then I kind of had this.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Little bit of a debate going on.

[Caller]

One part of me is like, oh, it's going great. Let's just keep focus on this. Maybe even at up the percentage of what I'm putting into this 401. But then there's the other half of me that's a little bit more conservative side of me that's like, well, I'm kind of putting all my eggs in one basket of it's only buying company stock. And my firm has been having a record year for the past five years and I'm only been there for six. So I mean it's been going great, but it's not like the normal. So there's a part of me, it's like, okay, reduce my contributions down to the 5% to get their match and then the other four or I'll just round it up to five that I normally do. Put that into a Roth IRA.

[George Camel]

Yeah, that's wise.

[Caller]

Just to diversify. So is that the route y' all think I should go? Or just kind of put it all on black and spit it all in.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Black on my bro. My mom worked at a company called Enron.

[George Camel]

They put it all on black and.

[Dr. John Deloney]

They gave everybody company stock to keep buying company stock so they could turn on, give everybody more company stock. And everybody went broke overnight when that company dissolved. So I'm with you. I have a built in bias against that.

[George Camel]

Are you getting these stocks at, you know, 80% of cost or something? Is there a discount here?

[Caller]

Well, and that's something I'll have to kind of haven't dove too deep into since I'm so far out.

[George Camel]

Like, is this an employee stock purchase plan or. Or is. Is the only option in your Roth 401k to buy their company shares or there are more options?

[Caller]

No, there are more options. And honestly, that's something I could talk to kind of like my accounting about.

[George Camel]

Yeah, I wouldn't buy any of the stock then.

[Caller]

Okay.

[George Camel]

They're not for you.

[Caller]

Just go to them.

[George Camel]

Yeah, yeah, I would just choose some great mutual funds inside of that 401k, invest up to the match. If they don't have great options, invest up to the match and then again move on to that, roll Roth IRA and max that out if you can. If you do that without hitting your 15%. So what's your total income.

[Caller]

At least from the firm? Around 110 a year. That's money. Yeah.

[George Camel]

Awesome. So at 15%, you'd be investing 16,5 a year. And so you'd invest, you know, a portion of that into your company account and then anything left over put into that Roth, Roth ira. And if you ran out options there, then you can move back to that Roth 401k at work and keep dumping some money into there.

[Caller]

Gotcha.

[George Camel]

Dude, you're crushing.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So proud of you con homie.

[George Camel]

Young dude with a good head on his shoulders, an engineer, which we know is the number one career of millionaires in our millionaire study. Over 10,000 of them. So, Greg, you're on the path, my man. Keep it up. This is the Ramsey show.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Hey, what's up? Dr. John Deloney here. The new dates have dropped for the money and marriage. Getaway over Valentine's day weekend in 2020 26. This is your chance to hit pause on everything in your life and reconnect with your spouse Over a long weekend in Nashville, Tennessee. Me and my friend Rachel Cruz will be digging into topics like sex, money, communication and more. This weekend is happening on February 12th through the 14th and early bird. Prices start at 749 per couple but the prices will be going up soon. Get your tickets today at Ramsey Solutions events.

[George Camel]

We know you guys have been trying to help people in your life get started with Ramsey and the Ramsey plan. So we built some something for you. It's the Ramsey 101 playlist to help you help them. It's a free easy to share playlist that covers all the basics for someone who's just getting started with Ramsey. We've got clips on what are the baby steps, how to pay off debt with the debt snowball, how to build an emergency fund, and so much more. So here's how to share it. Just click the link at the top of the show notes to open the Ramsey101 playlist on YouTube. Then you can hit the share button and text it DM it, send it in a group chat and say hey, I enjoyed this. Thought I it might help. And if you're listening on radio, we've got the playlist featured at the top of our YouTube channel. It's one share and one step that could help one person in your life. Anna is up next in Las Vegas. What's going on Anna? How can we help?

[Caller]

Hi, thanks for taking my call. Okay, I've got to the chase. I'll have to tell you a brief story just so that you understand. I like a story, a good story too. I have a son who is a narcissist. Like a horrible father, horrible son, horrible husband, everything. Just think of the worst. So I have a trust and my son's in the trust with my other two children and my two grandchildren. My daughter in law is not in the trust. Her the financial advisor attorney said you know, don't put her in case of divorce or whatever. Okay, so she's not in it. So I always felt like she was a step shot. I have decided to pretty much disown my son because of being like this, this horrible narcissist. So I have a brokerage account that my other two children knew all about and they said don't give it to us, we don't need the money. They're very successful. You know, they both make over $100,000 each. You know, just, you know, so they were like half a million dollars a year. And I said, well, won't you feel bad? And they said, no, just leave it to Scott. He can't hold down a job. All right, so his name was on the broker account. What I want to do, and here's my, my question to you is I want to take him off of it because he does not deserve it. He doesn't know about it. So that's good. And what I want to do is put her on it because they are now getting divorced because I forced her to. I said, file a complaint against you.

[George Camel]

You forced your son's wife to divorce your son?

[Caller]

Yes. Well, he's a narcissist and he's causing the children to grow up to be ones. You know, I'm saying you put children like that, they're six and seven in a toxic, horrible environment.

[George Camel]

I don't know that a six year old can be a narcissist.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I would take off the clinical diagnosis.

[Caller]

They're in an environment like that for so long. And I Talked to the 7 year old and he goes, they just, he just bites my mommy and fights with my mommy and he's just so mean. I gave him 30,000 doll dollars one year because he kept losing his job. And then I gave him another 15. But I said, now that is to, you know, help the kids. And putting her in dance school and in karate classes because I think that's important for, you know, children. She didn't see any of that money. I just found this out when I went to Texas. He kept all the money. He didn't give it to anyone.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So how can, how can we help you, love?

[Caller]

That's a horrible. So that's my question. Okay? I'm going to take her and put her on the brokerage account.

[George Camel]

The ex wife.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dr. John Deloney]

If you do this, she's going to have.

[Caller]

Okay, okay.

[George Camel]

To take care of the kids.

[Caller]

Here's my situation. Here's the situation. She will take care of those children. She's a wonderful mother.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I know. And listen to me, listen to me, okay?

[Caller]

There's a narcissist and he won't pay child.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I know. Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen.

[Caller]

Okay, okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You not wanting to give him money because he's not. Let's don't call him a narcissist ever again. That's using clinical diagnostics. He. Let's just call him a bad person. Okay, okay.

[Caller]

Or a guy that diagnosed. But that's okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, that's fine. Okay. If he was diagnosed. And I'll let you use it. You know, that everyone on the Internet uses. Okay, if that's his diagnostic, you can say that, but let's just. Let's just call a spade a spade. He is not providing for his kids. He's not taking care of his wife. He's not a person of kids. Character. Okay?

[Caller]

No.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So you. You are well within your right to spend your money however you want to spend it.

[Caller]

Okay, I know, but I want to do it financially. Correct.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I know.

[Caller]

I mean, I want to be a smart person.

[Dr. John Deloney]

If you give her this money and she turns around and gets and. And leaves him, he will get a huge chunk of it during the divorce settlement. Don't do that.

[Caller]

Okay, so I have to wait until they're divorced?

[Dr. John Deloney]

No, no, no. Just do this.

[Caller]

Okay?

[Dr. John Deloney]

Just say I want to designate money, and every year I want to pay for this with the kids. And if in your trust.

[Caller]

But what do I do? What do I do about this brokerage account? I got to leave it to someone.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Are you dying?

[Caller]

Well, I'm old.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, well, then put it in your will. You don't have to liquidate it all right now.

[Caller]

Well, I don't have a will. I have a trust.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, then put it in the trust.

[Caller]

I don't want it in trust because I can't change a trust. I promised my husband I wouldn't. I wouldn't.

[George Camel]

Have you talked to your estate planning attorney about all of this?

[Caller]

Yeah, well, about my brokerage account.

[Dr. John Deloney]

How much is in this account? What are we talking about?

[Caller]

Oh, just 200,000. I mean, it's no big deal.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, then when she gets. When she. When she moves into a house, just.

[Caller]

She probably won't even get in the house. Probably have to go in an apartment. I mean, he's. He's gonna. I'm telling you, he's gonna quit up. He's going to say, don't have any money. I know him.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, but if you put money into an account and give it to her, he will get it. You know that.

[Caller]

Even after the divorce.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, you got to talk to. With an attorney about that.

[Caller]

Okay. Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

My guess is he's going to file some sort of alimony, some sort of something, and he'll get his hands on it in some way. That's why I would love to see.

[Caller]

He's gonna. He's gonna ask for alimony from her.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I know he is. That's why I'd love to see this directly go to. Hey, I just bought you a $200,000 house and I'm gifting it to you. Or I put 100 grand in a 529 for one kid's college and I put five 100 grand in another one. And you can't do that way, but you know what I'm saying. I would love to see some direct gifts that are assets.

[George Camel]

Yeah. So far you've just thrown money at problems and hoped that they went to the right. Right things.

[Caller]

Okay. Okay.

[George Camel]

And that's.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Listen.

[Caller]

But then now. Okay, so let's, let's just say I've got this $200,000 in the brokerage account, and then she gets divorced and she's living in a little crappy apartment and I want to buy her house.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Caller]

And look what.

[Dr. John Deloney]

We live in America, you can buy a house for anybody you want to.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It might have a tax penalty for you. I don't know what all that is.

[Caller]

Taxes. I have to pay taxes on those.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, that's what I'm saying.

[George Camel]

200 grand. You'll have your capital gains tax. And if it was held for longer than a year, it'll be long term, likely 15, depending on your situation. So you'll 15 of whatever money you, you know, you liquidate from the brokerage account.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But I think you should talk to your. Your get a tax pro and go to ramseysolutions.com.

[Caller]

No, you know, I'm, I'm a Ramsey girl. Okay. So I have a tax pro through him.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, then talk to your tax pro about what's the best way to get this money into the hands of my grandkids.

[Caller]

Okay. See, I didn't know who I should.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Ask, you know, like, because there will be tax implications, but they may be able to gift tax.

[Caller]

Who knows?

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

Yeah. There's a few people you can work with. The tax pro is going to help with tax strategy. You can contact a smartvestor pro to help with the investment side with the brokerage account and what the best ways to use that are. And they can also connect you with the right people if. Hey, this is more of an estate planning thing. Sounds like you have some history there with an estate planning attorney. But, you know, whoever set up the trust. But they're going to know the best way to set this up to keep his hands off of it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But here's what I'm hearing from you, and I want you to be very careful. Careful. Okay.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You're mad.

[Caller]

Oh, I'm angry.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, you're angry.

[Caller]

But I, I will now, I will always be angry because he, he.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Hold on.

[Caller]

Something to me. And I will never forget. He, he almost had me die.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay? So, okay, he almost killed. Listen, listen, listen.

[Caller]

No, he didn't almost kill me. He just wouldn't let me get my medicine. I mean, it's no big deal. But you know.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But listen to me. When we are angry, when we go to fight or when we go to flight, our brains literally shut off the critical thinking parts of our brain and we are simply responding animals. We're running from things or we are fighting things, okay? And so if you are angry and you are moving this account out of anger, you're not going to think clearly. And I'm going. That's why you got to get a professional in your corner so that you can exhale and make a logical move. Get a critical thinking brain next to you, whether it's yours or a tax pros or an investing pros or an estate attorney. Somebody who's going to say, okay, I know you're mad. Let's do this in the right way, in the right order.

[Caller]

SA Foreign.

[George Camel]

Isaiah 55:2 why do you spend money for what is not bread and your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to me and eat what is good and let your soul delight itself in abundance. Jordan Peterson said, the successful among us delay gratification and bargain with the future. There's some wisdom for you. Jay is in Charlotte, North Carolina. Up next. What's going on? Jay?

[Caller]

Hey, thanks for taking my call.

[George Camel]

Hey, I've got a question.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Might sound silly, but I don't really.

[Caller]

Trust people or stock brokers or whatever.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You want to call it with money. I'm trying to make some passive investments and just kind of looking for some.

[Caller]

Advice on how to forward without kind of. Maybe it's me not letting go of the reins or something, but I just, I've seen the horror stories and I've heard the horror stories of people trusting other people's money.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So that's kind of my, my hesitance. Have you heard the millions and millions and millions of other stories where people just put their money with an investment professional or even in just an index fund and they've made just had good retirements? I have, man, and I'm ignorant to.

[Caller]

How to move, how to do it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You know, I've done okay for myself and I'm just looking to, to make some passive investments, but I mean, I'm.

[George Camel]

Scared to bite the bullet, to be honest.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, so I guess the big thing is there's no such thing as a passive investment. That's a made up instagram Instagram.

[Caller]

Word.

[Dr. John Deloney]

There's no such thing as that. Okay, okay. Our, me and, me and George, our colleague Dave Ramsey, he, he owns a jillion rental houses and he'll be the first to tell you there's zero passive about it. He owns like, shopping centers. Zero passive about any of that. It's a job. It's all work. Okay. So this idea that you just like set it and forget it is not a real thing unless you're talking about mutual funds in the market or maybe that's more so what I was talking about. Interrupting. Yeah, that's, that's more so what I was talking about. I've got some commercial stuff and stuff like that.

[Caller]

I consider that active. You know, I've got my active stuff that I do. But I'm looking, you know, more to.

[Dr. John Deloney]

How do I get smart about, you.

[Caller]

Know, the real stuff where you're just handing over the money and they're investing it in companies and EFTs or whatever it may be. You know, that, that's more so where I need guidance.

[George Camel]

Sure. And I think you've, I don't know if you've had a bad experience or you just read stories, but there's a difference between the stock broke a financial advisor. So a stockbroker is on just a transactional person, hey, you want to make this trade? I'll make the trade for you and I'll take a commission or a fee. And so that's very clear what they're doing. You're still in the driver's seat, and I think I want to remind you that if you are not in the driver's seat, you're working with the wrong person. If they just say, hey, man, just give me 10 grand, I got it. I'll turn it into 20. Run far away. But if you're in the driver's seat and they're educating you on what they're recommending to put the money in, and then you say, yes, I want to put my money, money in there. And they're showing you the track record, they're showing you the expense ratios. They're explaining all of this to you. That's a different situation. So I don't want to, you know, throw the baby out with the bathwater and say that all stock brokers are, you know, fraudsters, because that's not true. And so I, I, I think you can do your due diligence. You, you can jump On a Ramsey Solutions.com hit SmartVestor, and you can interview several financial advisors and go with the one that you trust and you still make all the decisions. You control how much money goes into these accounts, where this money flows into. They'll show you at any given moment how the investment's doing. And the other side is this idea of, like, just giving someone, they just lose all the money. That's legitimate scams and fraud. That doesn't happen in the true investing world. So let that also give you some peace of mind.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I would love to know, like, where does your. Where does your heart rate get up? Where's that from? Where's that from?

[George Camel]

Yeah, yeah, I got.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I got scammed a while back, and.

[Caller]

Then I was real close to getting.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Scammed by somebody recently here that was in the news. That was a big scammer in the Southeast.

[George Camel]

So how are you finding these people that have scammed you?

[Caller]

They're finding me, I guess you would say.

[George Camel]

Exactly. So that's a key red flag. If they're coming to you. Run away.

[Caller]

Sure.

[George Camel]

So you put the ball in your court, you reach out to them, and you can see, hey, what are they? What are their qualifications? Are they properly licensed? Are they governed by the sec? This is not. You know, my uncle said he can flip this investment. And so I think that will. I. I think we need some time to sort of heal from this and realize that I fell for some traps and that it's not all bad apples out there that will help you. But you're asking about investing. Are you looking to just invest outside of retirement?

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah, I'm looking to.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You know, I've got some cash, and that's my cat. So I'm just looking to, like, make.

[Caller]

That, you know, I don't know where.

[George Camel]

To put it other than money markets.

[Dr. John Deloney]

At this moment, at this time, you know, so that's kind of, you know, this is.

[George Camel]

Well, there's only. I'll tell you what, the only type of investments Dave has is real estate and mutual funds, and that's all you need. And you can define mutual funds as an index fund. I'm not. This is not a debate about index versus mutual. What we're talking about is a giant group of stocks, like 90 to 200 or more in one fund and then having multiple funds to diversify against that. And so that's going to also give you some peace that the market's not going to go down to zero. Right. If you have a single stock in a single company, there's a chance that company goes bankrupt, you lose all your money. But when you're invested in the entire stock market, well, we know there's. That would be apocalyptic if every company went to zero. That's. That's an insane predicament. And so that should also give you some peace. And I'll. We'll send you over Our investing guide, ramseysolutions.com guide. I think just reading through that, understanding the basics of investing will give you some peace of mind that it's not as complicated as you think. There's not some guy in a back room secretly picking some secret stock that no one else has access to. It's just someone explaining to you how the market. Market works, what the track records have been, and then just trusting that the US Economy like we've seen over time, will be up into the right, even during scary times like we're in right now.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And I guess, let me just say this, man, my smartvestor pro that's been in the Ramsey program forever, I, I've called and said, hey, I want to do this. And he has taught me, like, I will do whatever you say. I work for you. He says that all the time. And he said, walk me through why you're thinking this. And then he teaches me, here's what we're. Here's why I'm doing what I'm doing. Here's why I think your idea is not a good move. And here's exactly how I will do it, if that's what you want me to do. And I've been with him for so long now. Now, now we laugh. Like, he'll say, hey, he'll know the market's down. He'll text me and say, you're about to get an email. Don't open it because you're going to freak out and you're going to call me. And so like, just to whatever, whatever it's worth, worth, my experience has been a hundred percent the opposite of yours. And I don't want to say that to like, have any shame or anything. I just want to let you know, dude, there's good guys out there. There's great men and women out there taking care of people like me. I'm super sensitive and I'm dramatic and all that who just work with me on, like, taking care of my, my family's future. You know what I mean?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah. That's what I'm looking for.

[Caller]

That.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And I want that peace of mind.

[Caller]

And I need that peace of mind because I'm getting older and I just, you know, a few more years, I want to call it quits, you know?

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah. Ex man. And dude, I can hear it in your voice. There's like a. Like a tension around it, man. I want to free you from that, dude. Not free from the risk of financial stuff.

[Caller]

Scary to put a lot of money out there, you know, it's scary to say, hey, take my money.

[George Camel]

And you know that when I've worked.

[Caller]

So hard for it, you know?

[Dr. John Deloney]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[George Camel]

And you know what else is scary is seeing your money not even grow at the rate of inflation.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

And so I also don't want you to just park it in a mattress or even a money market for the next 20 years because you're spooked by the market or by stockbrokers or whatever. So you definitely need to get over this hurdle. And I think interviewing some of these smartvestor pros, you can Jump on Ramsey Solutions.com SmartVestor and type in your zip code and talk to them and say, hey, here's all my fears. Here's the trauma I experienced in the past. Can you walk. Walk through this with me and help me understand what I'm getting into by trusting you and with these recommendations on what to do with my money? And if you don't get a good vibe, just say, all right, I'm done. I'm gonna move on to the next guy.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Hey, Jay, how about. Much have you lost? About 250,000. Okay, can I just tell you, like, your. Your apprehension is well earned. Your body's working perfectly. Good on you.

[George Camel]

You're not paranoid.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You're right to be apprehensive. You're probably a little paranoid like me. Like, paranoid recognizes paranoid, right? Because we all know it's all coming down j.

[George Camel]

This game.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Right? But, like, man, you got hit in the mouth hard, so good for you for. For not just running back into it like a mad madman. Right? But also, the only way to have peace in your life is to exhale and be smart, but then get back in the. Get back in the ring at some point, right?

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. I hear you. Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Good on you, man.

[Caller]

I appreciate it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Good.

[George Camel]

I appreciate it, man.

[Caller]

Thanks for taking the call.

[Dr. John Deloney]

All right.

[George Camel]

Yeah, good luck. And I love this call because Jay was very honest, just going, listen, I don't have it all figured out, and.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I've gotten burned before.

[George Camel]

Pin burned. He's a smart, smart guy. He makes a lot of money. And so this is not a guy who's a beginner, but he's realizing I need a pro in my corner I can trust. And it's the same reason I use a real estate agent, and I have a Barber because I can't be trusted to do these things myself. I want to offload it to the experts and that's okay. And if you want to connect with a smartvestor like we mentioned, just Jump on a ramseysolutions.com SmartVestor get connected to give you some peace of mind.

[Caller]

Hey, you guys. I was shocked to learn that 88% of you out there are sharing the Ramsey show. I mean, that is so incredible. Thank you so much. And I want to tell you that we're making it even easier to share. So this June, we have pulled together the brand new Ramsey101 utility YouTube playlist. A quick start collection of how to get started walking the Ramsey plan. Now, this playlist is perfect for that one person in your life who needs help winning with money and just doesn't know where to start. So here's what's inside. What the baby steps are and why they actually work. How the debt snowball helps you pay off debt fast, and how to build wealth and invest for the future and so much more. So here's. Here's what you need to do. Click the link at the top of the show notes. It'll take you straight to the YouTube playlist. Copy it, text it, send it in a group chat. Just say, hey, I thought this might help. Because one playlist shared at the right time could be the turning point. One share, one playlist, one step could change everything for that one person in your life. So click the link, share the Ramsey show, and let's help someone out there start winning with money.