Debt Is Not A Problem Solving Tool - Financial Peace Is

Summary

The Ramsey Show (June 17, 2026)

Episode: Debt Is Not A Problem Solving Tool – Financial Peace Is

Host: Dave Ramsey
Co-host: Dr. John Delony

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dave Ramsey and Dr. John Delony take live calls from listeners facing difficult financial situations, offering tough love, practical advice, and encouragement. The dominant theme: Debt is not a problem-solving tool. Instead, building financial freedom comes from discipline, planning, and action in the face of adversity. The hosts coach callers through baby steps, debt paydown, relationship issues tied to money, and emotional setbacks after financial or personal trauma.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Debt is Not a Solution—It’s the Problem

• Notable callers include young adults with new jobs, divorcees facing mounting debt, business owners struggling with rapid growth, and families in crisis.
• Dave stresses following the baby steps: start with a starter emergency fund, then attack debt using the debt snowball, and importantly, stop borrowing altogether.

"The first step of getting out of debt, honey, quit borrowing more money. So no more of that. You're done."
—Dave Ramsey (05:36)

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2. Beware Lifestyle Inflation with Newfound Income

• Callers who recently increased their income are warned not to escalate spending or justify new debt.

"The big trap you're going to have to be careful of is you finally have a paycheck... you're going to want to catch up on all the spending you haven't done over the past few years. If you will hold tight for 24 months, you can change everything in your life."
—Dr. John Delony (03:58)

Timestamps:
• [00:48–06:29] Gabrielle’s journey from minimum wage to $65k and tackling $60k debt
• [06:29–11:33] Taj’s struggle with a car lease and preparing to live independently

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3. Don't “Solve” Debt With More Debt—Even in Crisis

• Divorcee Victoria considers a home equity line of credit (HELOC) to pay a lawsuit.
• Dave explains the legal and emotional implications. Delony warns about the cycle of using debt as a safety net:

"You're going to treat your HELOC just like you've treated this past friend and your past attorney and you're going to end up losing your house."
—Dr. John Delony (18:24)

• Advice: Settle directly if possible, but only use a HELOC if you have a concrete plan to aggressively pay it off.

Timestamps:
• [11:33–20:53] Victoria’s loan, lawsuit, and whether to get a HELOC

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4. Emotional Recovery and Action After Trauma

• Listeners describe feeling stuck for years after divorce, job loss, or trauma.
• Delony: "I'm just gonna start taking action... After two months, four months, six months, this thing may still be on me, but I'm gonna be stronger... It's when you just stop and it surrounds you like a fog that you wake up two years, three years, seven years, twenty years, and it's as though it just happened to you."
• Ramsey: "Confidence comes from competence, from doing."

Timestamps:
• [21:28–29:56] Principles for bouncing back from trauma, debt, or loss
• [29:56–31:11] Taking action and regaining control

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5. Professional School Debt: Attack Aggressively

• Caller Kenneth is about to begin a five-year orthopedic residency with $100k in student loans.
• Ramsey strongly encourages living below means, delaying retirement contributions, and crushing student loans before lifestyle upgrades.

"A single guy who can't do anything but work all the time, you haven't got time to spend money. ...The more intense you are, the deeper you sacrifice, the faster you get out."
—Dave Ramsey (34:00)

Timestamps:
• [32:38–37:55] Advice for future high-earning professionals: finish training debt-free

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6. Home Ownership: Your Safety Matters Most

• Caller wants to keep a current home as a rental even after shootings in the neighborhood.
• Ramsey: “If you don’t want to live there, why do you want to own it? ...Sell it. Go buy your house, pay that house off and then save up some money and go buy you a rental in a neighborhood that they don’t shoot down the street."
  —Dave Ramsey (40:12)

Timestamps:
• [38:39–41:55] Evaluating investments and moving for family safety

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7. Marriage, Divorce, and Money—Facing Reality

• Jessica describes a marriage unraveling under financial collapse and abandonment.
• Dr. Delony: "His actions are not of a man who wants to be married and build a life with somebody. His actions are not of somebody who wants to be a father."
• The team urges her to put the house on the market and file for divorce immediately for her and her children's safety and future.

Timestamps:
• [43:33–51:59] When financial dysfunction and relationship dysfunction collide

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8. Running a Small Business: Avoiding the Growth Trap

• Callers with successful business startups struggle with debt (equipment loans, expensive cars) despite sizable profit.
• Ramsey emphasizes pulling money out of the business to pay down all personal debt. Future purchases (cars, equipment) must be cash-only.

"There was nothing that makes it okay. No one forced you to do this. ...The next time the business needs a piece of equipment, it needs to save up out of profits and pay cash for the equipment."
—Dave Ramsey (77:24)

Timestamps:
• [71:19–84:17] Small business debt, rental equipment vs. buying, tax and growth pitfalls

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9. Unhealthy Financial Relationships in Marriage

• Elizabeth asks if she should deposit her Social Security into a joint account, fearing her husband will misuse it.
• The hosts make clear: If you can’t trust your spouse with joint finances, there are deeper issues to address; tolerating “whack” behavior is not a solution.

Timestamps:
• [86:17–91:47] Navigating distrust and separate finances in marriage

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10. Prenups, Inheritance, and Marrying with Unequal Wealth

• Emily inherited $5M; her fiancé feels a need to “catch up” financially.
• Dave: “He doesn’t need a trust and he does not need to catch up. The trust just sits over here as a third thing…any money you take across the wall to use for personal use is ours.”
• Focus: Unify income but keep inheritance in trust. Don’t turn marriage into a financial competition.

Timestamps:
• [96:04–104:40] Prenups, keeping windfalls in trust, and building a shared financial life

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11. Facing Total Collapse: Bankruptcy or Not?

• George (not cohost) owes $500k from failed real estate schemes, business lines of credit, and losses.
• Dave painstakingly unravels the layers of bad decisions, points out excuses and rationalizations, and urges George (and listeners) to autopsy their mistakes for future wisdom.

“You have to be really, really careful to avoid fear and greed driving your decisions around money. Because... both those things cause you to go too fast, too far and look past all the warning signs.”
—Dave Ramsey (124:10)

Timestamps:
• [107:32–116:17] Crushing reality of bankruptcy, day trading, and facing hard truths

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Debt as a ‘Problem-Solving’ Tool:
  “The next time a little problem comes up, we don’t solve it with debt. You suck it up, buttercup, and you push through.”
  —Dave Ramsey (05:37)

• On Financial Setbacks:
  “I want you to put the divorce in your rear-view mirror. ...No more victim. You’re gonna have to be a victor now. You’re not a victim of the divorce. You have to stand up and fight, girl.”
  —Dave Ramsey (19:14)

• On Taking Action:
  “Confidence comes from competence, from doing.”
  —Dave Ramsey (29:25)

• On Wealth Building:
  “Rich people keep doing the stuff that got them rich – like live on less than you make, stay out of debt, be generous, be in agreement with your spouse.”
  —Dave Ramsey (53:46)

• On Inheritance & Marriage:
  “The fact that that five million dollars landed in your lap has changed the way you all were talking about your future. And it shouldn’t have.”
  —Dr. John Delony (99:50)

• On Financial Trauma & Recovery:
  “...when you can’t carry it on your own, people will walk alongside you and help carry the load. But I have to start taking the next right action.”
  —Dr. John Delony (24:52)

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Major Takeaways

• Debt never solves problems—it multiplies them. Stop borrowing.
• Action—however small—leads to hope and change. Inaction breeds despair.
• Lifestyle inflation is a trap; maintain discipline regardless of income growth.
• Prioritize safety for your family over financial “logic” (i.e., keeping a rental in a dangerous neighborhood).
• Marriages must have trust and joint purpose with money—secrets and blame destroy financial and personal peace.
• Business success must be paired with systems, discipline, and debt avoidance—or it sows the seeds of disaster.
• When facing financial trauma, analyze what led you there (fear, greed, impulsivity), and rely on wise counsel and action steps to move forward.

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Episode Structure & Timestamps

• [00:48–06:29]: Young parent increases income, tackles debt, warned about lifestyle creep
• [06:29–11:33]: Leasing cars, preparing to move out post-divorce
• [11:33–20:53]: HELOC for lawsuit? Divorce, judgment, legal and ethical cautions
• [21:28–31:11]: Handling financial/emotional trauma, the power of action
• [32:38–37:55]: Medical school debt: repayment plans for future high earners
• [38:39–41:55]: Safety vs. investing in risky neighborhoods
• [43:33–51:59]: Family crisis: marriage abandonment, forbearance, hard truths
• [71:19–84:17]: Small business debt, rapid growth, equipment loans, the cash flow problem
• [86:17–91:47]: Social Security, distrust in marriage, joint finances
• [96:04–104:40]: Inheritance, prenup, and partnership in marriage
• [107:32–116:17]: Severe debt, real estate collapse, bankruptcy contemplation, fear & greed autopsy
• [117:12–126:58]: Greed, fear, and the lure of “get rich quick” schemes—cautionary tales and wisdom

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Closing Insight

This episode showcases the real-world consequences of treating debt as a safety net, the critical importance of action after adversity, and the life-changing results of following a plan—no matter how far gone or stuck you feel. The Ramsey team’s approach is blunt but compassionate, always pushing listeners toward ownership, discipline, and hope.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studios, this is the Ramsey Show. I'm Dave Ramsey. Dr. John DeLoney, Ramsey personality, number one best selling author and host of the very popular Dr. John DeLoney show on Ramsey Networks. He's my co host today. Open phones at 888. 825-5225. Gabrielle or Gabriel is in Los Angeles. What's up?

[Caller]

Hello, Dave. Hello, John. Longtime listener. I'm 27 years old. Gonna be 28 in November. I just got a job as a buyer planner making $65,000 a year. Before I was making minimum wage, like $17 an hour. I have two children. I always hear you say before I have, I got a PhD in stupid when I was younger. Definitely trying to change my life around. I have about $60,000 in debt. And yeah, I'm just trying to figure out how to navigate that. Both my children, I'm not with, you know, their mothers, so I'm having to pay, you know, about $1,100 a month in child support, which I, I guess my issue right now is starting to make, you know, going from $17 an hour to 65. I know it's not life changing, but for me it is life changing.

[Dave Ramsey]

That is a big deal. Congratulations.

[Caller]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And you know, it opened my eyes to, you know, like, maybe I can have a future for a long time. I guess I was in my head that life was over essentially. So I guess now I'm having a brighter outlook. You know, listening to you guys and hearing other people's stories, I feel like it's possible. I have amaz girlfriend. She's going to graduate in a couple years with her SLP degree. So I just want to plan our life. I want to get rid of all the debt that I have. You know, I want to marry this woman. I want to provide a good future for my kids and for myself. And I guess, yeah, my question is just how do I attack it? Is it possible, you know, to even get a home one day and, you know, do all this? It just feels kind of suffocating right now because it's just me.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure, you're not suffocating. You're, you're, you're on a curve, man. You're excited. You got a thing called Hope it showed back up.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so good for you.

[Caller]

Yeah, I'm proud of it was the whole thing.

[Dave Ramsey]

I see a really, really bright future for you. You're asking all the right questions with the right urgency and the right belief. So yeah, you're in good shape. Yeah, I mean as far as the money piece, sir, I would just tell you to follow the baby steps and we'll help you. I'll send you a copy of the book the Total Money Makeover and make sure you read that, go over that with your girlfriend and, and you know, first thing you do is get $1,000. And the second thing we're doing is list these debts, smallest to largest. And here's the weird thing. When you start paying attention to the debt and you quit borrowing money, you can make that debt go away. It's just you weren't paying attention before.

[Caller]

Exactly. I think that's another thing is like I'm blessed. My girlfriend is also. She's better at saving than I am. She works a part time job and still manages to save more than me. So I'm blessed in the aspect of having. I'm more of the. I like to budget and do the numbers and she likes to actually do it, you know. So I guess for me though like I got into it so I think we balance each other out well. So I'm lucky in that end.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, you don't the only thing balance each other out because you're not married but you can coach each other, you can be cheerleaders for each other and cheer each other on until you're married someday.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Let me give you a huge warning, okay?

[Caller]

Yes, sir.

[Dr. John Deloney]

When I graduated college, I don't remember the exact number. I think I had $20,000 or something by myself in student loan debt. I got my first big fancy job and I worked a bunch of extra. I was a coach and a teacher and so I could coach extra sports and make even more money. And I ended that year double, if not one and a half X the amount of debt I started that year with because I finally got this job. I've been, I've been driving an old beat up car since high school. All the through college I didn't say no to myself ever. And the big trap you're going to have to be careful of is you finally have a paycheck and you're going to want to catch up on all the spending you haven't done over the past few years. If you will hold tight for 24 months, you can change everything in your life.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, just tear into the step.

[Caller]

I feel that way too. That the only thing is, like, for example, I was of the same mindset before. I drove a 2005 Toyota Camry. It had like, maybe a hundred. I got it for like a thousand dollars at an auction. It had maybe like 98, 000 miles. So it was just preseason for the kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So. But I did get into an accident a month into my new job. So a couple months ago, I got. My car got totaled. So I. You know, this is. I wasn't listening to you guys as heavily. This has been a couple weeks where I've been every day at work just listening to you guys all day. But I had to get a. Well, I got a car because I live. I work a bit far.

[Dave Ramsey]

How much did you spend on this stupid car?

[Caller]

17,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, that's not as bad as I thought you were going to say.

[Caller]

No, no, no, no.

[Dave Ramsey]

So that's in your list of 60,000. Now, the first step of getting out of debt, honey, quit borrowing more money. So no more of that. You're done. If you keep that car, that's fine. But you're going to have to now say beans and rice. Rice and beans. And the next time a little problem comes up, we don't solve it with debt. You suck it up, buttercup, and you push through. You got to lean into this now. Now's your time. And that's exactly what John's talking about. Totaling a $1,000 car does not constitute purchasing a $17,000 car. These things are not on the same page. This is. Your emotions got out of control. So when you total a $1,000 car, you buy another $1,000 car. That's what you normally do, but people don't. They do what you did, and that's a mistake. So. All right, hang on. We're going to send you a copy of the Total Money Makeover book and get you going. Taj is in Baltimore. Hi, Taj. What's up?

[Caller]

Hey. Thank you for taking my call.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure. How can we help?

[Caller]

I'm kind of. I want advice on how I can continue going through the baby steps and kind of managing my money moving forward. So earlier this year, you know, my. My parents got divorced, and now I pretty much, like, gotta move out. And I have, like, a lot of credit card debt, and I have a vehicle. And between that and my vehicle and my car insurance, I just want to know the best ways that I can kind of prepare to pay rent, you know, toward the end of this year and kind of move forward.

[Dave Ramsey]

How old are you?

[Caller]

I'm 24.

[Dave Ramsey]

What do you make?

[Caller]

I make 56,000 a year.

[Dave Ramsey]

And how much car did you take on?

[Caller]

Well, right now I'm in lease.

[Dave Ramsey]

I know what's your stupid.

[Caller]

A month? It's 500.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good God. Okay, so let's talk about selling that lease car back and getting out of that lease and getting you a beater.

[Caller]

Right. So right now my current payoff amount is 19,000 and it's worth about 16,5.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Caller]

And I was listening to your show recently and I know that, you know, you could potentially go to a, you know, a credit, you know, like a creditor to get a loan to pay off. Pay it off. I'm not sure how that would work being as though like I'm upside down right now.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, you'd have to borrow $4,000 to pay the difference and sell the car you got because you're in the hole, you're upside down. And so you got a $4,000 personal loan. That's better than a $16,000 or $17,000 loan or whatever the thing is here and we don't 19,000 and then get you a beater and let's you know, because you got to move out and stand on your own. At 24 years old making 56,000 in Baltimore. You need to run those numbers. Go look at one bedroom apartments or two bedroom apartments with a roommate. How are we going to do this? And it's not going to be driving that car.

[George Camel]

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[Dr. John Deloney]

to remain active on Boost Mobile unlimited plan.

[Dave Ramsey]

Investing can be confus. So a couple of years ago, they talked me into they being the Ramsey Live events team, doing an event with George Campbell called Investing Essentials where we opened up my personal playbook on what I invest in and why and what I don't invest in and why, including real estate. We go into deep on the real estate stuff. We've only done that event of Investing Essentials two times. This is the third time ever to do it. We are changing the content a little bit and we're gonna go a little bit more into navigating wills, building a legacy, maybe even look at taxes a little bit. A couple of cool things you can do there. But tickets are $199. The next investing essentials or the third one in history is going to be September 1 and 2. It's George and me, and we're going to unpack my personal playbook and go through a bunch of the categories of investments. And so if you're very serious about the investing side of this discussion, then this is a great place to be again. 199. You can get your [e-mail] events or click the Show Notes if you're on podcast or YouTube. Victoria is with us. She is in Seattle. Hi, Victoria. How are you?

[Caller]

Hi, Dave. Thank you for taking my call.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure. What's up?

[Caller]

Yes, I'm just a little bit overwhelmed. I'm basically getting over divorce. Right. Over like $20,000 and 14,000 of it is kind of pertinent. It was a personal loan. They took me to Small Claims and their intention is to try to potentially garnish my wages. And I was wondering what your advice would be if I should get a HELOC to kind of get out from under all this divorce debt.

[Dr. John Deloney]

How is the divorce related to the small claims court?

[Caller]

Well, the person loaned me, so it was a friend. No longer a friend really, but they loaned me the money because I just didn't have it. And the divorce was just. We had to just keep going back to court. He kept just taking me, taking me back to court and I had to get a lawyer, so they loaned me money.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So you borrowed money from a friend to pay for your divorce and then you haven't paid back your friend and now your friend is suing you?

[Caller]

Yeah, I haven't paid it all back. I tried to make payments, but.

[Dave Ramsey]

What do you make, Victoria?

[Caller]

So currently I make 52,000, but I'm going to be starting to make 72,800 starting.

[Dave Ramsey]

How long ago was this divorce?

[Caller]

The divorce finalized A year ago.

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And how long have you been. Have you been loaned this money?

[Caller]

About a year and a half.

[Dave Ramsey]

So in the last year, how much have you paid? Towards the 14,000.

[Caller]

I paid like $1,000 because I lost my job, and I just, you know, I haven't been really making it with my. And that's what, you know, my. My old job, I wasn't making it. It was just very sporadic income. My old job.

[Dave Ramsey]

How long have you had the new job? That's $56,000 job.

[Caller]

The $52,000 job. I started May 10th.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, just the other day. Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah. And then.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah. So I'm really struggling. I haven't.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, there's a couple things. Obviously, a judgment is final in the state of Washington, where you are. And then they execute on the judgment, which gives them the ability to take a lean on any assets, including doing garnishment on your wages in your state. Okay. Usually that takes a while. When was the judgment final in small claims?

[Caller]

The small claims we had already previously mediated, and it was agreed that we were going to be on a payment plan. But now, because I have.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because you didn't keep the agreement, now they're going to garnish you.

[Caller]

Now they were going back on the end of August.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Caller]

You have a hearing, and then. But the person's intention wants to garnish my wages. But of course we're going to have a hearing about it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, what they want. And what they want is their money.

[Caller]

I understand.

[Dave Ramsey]

For different reasons, you've not paid them their money.

[Caller]

Yes, I understand.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And so it's not that they. Their intent is to garnish you. Their intent is to try to get their money back, and you've never paid them in a year more than $1,000 because you lost job, you had a bad job, you finally got another job, and. And you made an agreement on May 10th. You made the agreement. No, May 10th, when you started the job. I'm sorry, when did you make the mediation agreement?

[Caller]

A year ago.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, so they've been sitting around waiting a year for you to keep your word from the mediation, and now they lost patience later and they're going to come after you. That's fairly patient.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

If I was going after your throat, I would have come sooner.

[Caller]

Yeah. I mean, I said I. So that's why I'm thinking, should I just get the HELOC to just pay them? Yeah, I have no other.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, that'd be a great idea. Or better than that. Do you have an attorney or you're working with this person's attorney or what?

[Caller]

No, it's just pro se. Just self.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, but does he have or she have an attorney representing them?

[Caller]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so both of you just walked up before Judge Judy and did this?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, crap. Okay. And I'm guessing that it's real tense between the two of you?

[Caller]

I mean, I can try again.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, I'm guessing. Answer my question. Is it tense between the two of you?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I would think. I would think. Okay. Cause here's what I would normally do, and I don't know that I don't think it'll work, here is I would ask their attorney what they would accept if we just wrote them a check. If I go borrow the money on a HELOC and write them a check, what's the minimum amount they'll accept to settle this debt? If this was a bank, they'd take a quarter on the dollar. You could settle it for three or four grand. But this is a pissed off individual, so you may not get any discount. Okay. But yeah, if you have the ability to go borrow the money on a HELOC and pay them, I would. They were there for you in your time of need. You owe them the money. You have the ability to pay them the money by doing the heloc. I'd go get a heloc.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because the other thing is this has taken a lot of stress on you. And when this person and this lawsuit and this mediation and all this garnishment is out of your life, you're going to sleep better. Would you agree?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Is there a possibility to go. Is your credit in such shambles that you couldn't go down to a local bank, local credit union and get a personal line of credit for 14 grand?

[Caller]

I don't. I don't know. I can try doing that. But, like, I have other, you know, the divorce just really put me in a big hole, so I still owe more than just a 14,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

What else do you owe, Victoria?

[Caller]

I mean, I owe my credit card. I owe my own lawyer.

[Dr. John Deloney]

How much do you owe your old lawyer?

[Caller]

Like 3,000.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Because here's my fear. You're going to treat your. Your HELOC just like you've treated this past friend and your past attorney and you're going to end up losing your house?

[Caller]

No, I'm a single mom. I have, you know, I've been just trying to hold on, you know, I got that.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But if you take a HELOC out, what you're doing is you're putting your house on the block. That means you have to have to pay this off.

[Dave Ramsey]

What is your house? What's your home worth?

[Caller]

My home is worth. I'd say about 350.

[Dave Ramsey]

And what do you owe?

[Caller]

About 275.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, and how much debt do you have? 14. And three to your lawyer. And how much on the credit card?

[Caller]

About three.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, and what other debt?

[Caller]

And then I have like a student loan.

[Dave Ramsey]

How much?

[Caller]

And I.

[Dave Ramsey]

How much.

[Dr. John Deloney]

How much is the student loan?

[Caller]

My student loan, I'd say is about 15,000.

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right. I want you to put the divorce in your rear view mirror. I want you to get your fight back. I want you to list these debts out. I want you to take six jobs and attack these debts and clean them up as fast as possible. So much has been happening to you, and now it's time for you to happen to things. No more victim. You're gonna have to be a victor now. You're not a victim of the divorce. You have to stand up and fight, girl. And fight your way through this. And you can do. Foreign.

[George Camel]

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[Dr. John Deloney]

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[Dave Ramsey]

So if you have a pile of debt and no money and life kicks you in the side of the head, now you got a real mess. And bouncing back is hard emotionally, psychologically, John financially. And if you have an emergency fund of $20,000 and no debt except your home and you have and life kicks you in the side of the head, you're emotionally in a different place to bounce back because you don't feel unsafe, you don't feel vulnerable, like, I'm about to be homeless. My check is getting ready to be garnished. This divorce set me back. This. This illness in our family set us back. This job loss set us back this. Name your tragedy, name your poison. But it's coming. That thing is coming every time. And there's, you know, being ready for it financially by being out of debt and having an emergency fund. You know, when there's an emergency, hello, it does help. It doesn't keep the problem from being there. It doesn't keep the. Depending on the extent of the tragedy, the extent of the event, how bad it was. But even then, people recover at different speeds from a nasty divorce, a job loss that was devastating,

[Dr. John Deloney]

a death in

[Dave Ramsey]

the family, a death in the family, a whatever. I mean, those are the three things that come to mind. But, you know, so, yeah, my husband died, my wife died, we lost a child, My company, I was making serious money and they just walked in one day in corporate America and they just cut my head off, just fired me. I didn't see it coming. Or my husband of 23 years walked in and said he had a girlfriend and we're done. And I haven't worked in the workplace in 12 years, and so I don't know what I'm going to do now. People recover from those things at different speeds, different resilience almost. The reason I'm setting all that up is I wanted to ask you on the air, what are the principles if you're facing something like that, where you want to be, I think is within a certain number of months, you want to have that tragedy. It still hurts, it's still betrayal, it's still whatever it is, but you want to have it in the rear view mirror and be looking forward other than, you know. But sometimes when I take a call or we take a call here, they talk about that thing that happened in such fresh terms that you think it was 10 minutes ago, and you find out later in the call it was six years ago, and they're still living back there emotionally. What causes people to be able to move past the horrible thing that happens? Because it. Granted, it's horrible, it's trauma, but how do you move past trauma and get it in your rearview mirror as fast as is healthy?

[Dr. John Deloney]

I like to think of it not in terms of getting past it as much as I'm just gonna start taking action. If you lose a child that will be with you forever. If your spouse walks in after 25 years and says, I got a girlfriend, that will embed itself in your nervous system, you'll be on guard for that for the rest of your life. My goal in that moment is want to pass that on to my kids, but I get to decide. And this, this is honestly where a group of people, this is where a community. This is where a good group of friends, a good group of family members, even a therapist, if you have to call somebody or, or minister. This is where when you can't carry it on your own, people will walk alongside you and help carry the load. But I have to start taking the next right action. And what I'll find is after two months, after four months, after six months, this thing may still be on me, but I'm gonna be stronger and I'm gonna have move down the road a little bit. It's when you just stop and it surrounds you like a fog. And there's no one to help lift that fog. There's no one to shine a light in there, and there's no action taken moving forward. That you wake up two years, three years, seven years, 20 years, and it's as though it just happened to you because you haven't taken that step to start moving towards a new thing.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I don't know where this process happens in the brain, and I'd be interested to hear your take on this, but the Bible says out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. And so what I have noticed is the language that we use is an indicator as to whether we're taking action and moving forward or whether we're sitting in the acid.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Like, because the language acts like I'm still there. And it was six years ago.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

The language sounds fresh and the words you use. So do you consciously say, I'm going to choose different words, or do you just choose a different stance, a different posture, and the words then change?

[Dr. John Deloney]

Probably a little bit of both. I think it's, I mean, it's a cocktail of genetics and life experience, et cetera. I think that's the beauty of a show like this is what you've been doing for so long is some people don't have people in their life to speak those words. Some people don't have wise counsel. Some people don't have a hand that can reach out and pick them up. And some people don't. I, I, I have a close friend of mine, when she was pregnant with her third kid, her husband just up and said, I'm out left. And I remember saying a few years later, I don't know how you did that, how you know, she had to get on. She was on welfare for a while. Now she's this many years later. She's got a great career, she's crushing, she's remarried, her new husband's awesome. But I said, I don't know how you did that. And she said something that stuck with me. She said, I had to. And I think there is a gap between I have to, I got three mouths to feed, I've got to do something. And there's this gap. And culturally that gap has gotten wider and wider. I don't have to, have to, have to, right. I can continue to stay complacent. I'm just not going to pay. I'm just not going to do this. I'm going to let these things go to collections and I'll get this judgment against me. You'll pay the piper at some point someday you're going to have to. But our culture's allowed that there to be a bigger and bigger space. And what happens is you just end up basting in it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Literal survival.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I have to.

[Dave Ramsey]

We don't have literal survival anymore that we're struggling with. I mean, that's how I felt when we went bankrupt. That was a life changing tragedy experience. I lost everything. I've got a brand new baby, Rachel, a toddler, Denise. A marriage hanging on by a thread. And people are like, so how did you get up and go to work? I had to, I have to.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Especially back a 30 year, 40 years ago. There wasn't a programs, there wasn't. I have to write this second.

[Dave Ramsey]

There had to be money. There was a baby that wanted milk. There was a wanted formula, there was diapers, there was an electricity that had been cut off and didn't need to be cut off again. I had to go to work that day. I didn't file bankruptcy and then take a week off and mourn the tragedy that I'd been through for the last two and a half years prior to that ptsd, I didn't have time for. I couldn't spell it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, I think the bigger thing is wherever you find yourself, most of us believe. And again, it's another cultural lie. It's the air we breathe that in the right time or when things feel right, then I'm going to go, I need to get my confidence back. And then I'll go do X, Y or Z. And the fallacy there is your body gains confidence through action, you begin to go look for.

[Dave Ramsey]

You don't think your way into confidence.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You can't. You don't think your way into being well.

[Dave Ramsey]

Confidence comes from competence, from doing.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You begin acting well and your body starts to stand up taller and you start to be able to breathe a little deeper. You don't sit in your house and say, I just want to. When I can. When I can breathe better, then I'll go, I'm going to start. I'm going to download an app and start doing breathing exercises in my living room. Because that's what I got to do right now, right? And you begin taking tiny, tiny, tiny actions. And, man, you look up six months, seven months later. Some of those things will never be in your rearview mirror, but they're not going to be so suffocating. They'll be with you, but you'll be taking action, moving through it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Now. There's always going to be a tender spot where that scar is.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Oh, yeah.

[Caller]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, I was 28 years old, so that's almost 40 years ago. And I can hear someone's voice here on the air, and it takes me, my body back to there. I can feel it. My throat starts tightening up.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, I remember that.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And I talked. I talked to any number of parents who lost a child 10 years ago, 20 years ago. Within 30 seconds, they'll be in tears again. That will be with you, But I'm going to take the next right action. I actually like what our buddy Jocko says. We're talking about service members that were under his care that he lost. I got two. I got two lives to live now. I got three lives worth of laughter, three lives worth of adventure, three lives worth of giving and generosity to live now. But it's taking that responsibility and saying, I'm going to. I'm going to.

[Dave Ramsey]

The answer to the overall thing is action is action.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Instead of paralysis, take action. And if you can't take action, get someone to reach out and pull your. Like, take somebody's hand and let them

[Dave Ramsey]

pull you in action.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Let me tell you what I get asked all the time, when should I get term life insurance? How much do I need? Is it affordable? Those are the right questions to be asking. So let's take a quick review. The fact is, term life isn't a baby step. So if anyone is dependent on your income, you need to have 10 to 12 times your income in life insurance now. And most people are surprised by how affordable term life really is, even if you're not in perfect health. Look, I understand the hesitation since most insurance companies make it more of a hassle than it needs to be. At Zander Insurance, they're not an insurance company. They're a broker that works for you. That means they'll shop and compare the top term life companies to find the most competitive options on the coverage for your family. For almost 30 years, I've recommended Zander for straight answers, competitive rates, and coverage that actually protects your family. Call 800-356-4282 or go to zander.com for a quick and easy quote. That's zander.com. Kenneth is in Richmond, Virginia. Hi, Kenneth. How are you?

[Caller]

Very good. How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Caller]

Yes, sir. So I wanted to call and ask you guys about opinions on refinancing some medical school loans in order to pay them off quicker. Just recently graduated medical school and I'll be starting a five year residency here next month. I have about a hundred thousand dollars in loans and I would love to be able to pay them off within the next five years.

[Dave Ramsey]

What is your residency? And I didn't know. I didn't think residency were five years.

[Caller]

It'll be an orthopedic surgery.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I was gonna say you're gonna be a fancy pants. Huh?

[Dave Ramsey]

Good for you.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dr. John Deloney]

There you go.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what do you. What do you make during residency?

[Caller]

Sorry, what was that?

[Dave Ramsey]

How much will you be making as

[Caller]

a resident in residency? I'll be making about 68,000 to start, and I also have an additional about 15,000 from military disability compensation each year as well.

[Dave Ramsey]

Thank you for your service. Are you married?

[Caller]

No, sir.

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. So we're dealing with $85,000 income with $100,000 in debt. And so $20,000 a year does that in five years, right?

[Caller]

Yes, Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

That should be doable. A single guy who can't do anything but work all the time, you haven't got time to spend money.

[Caller]

Correct. Now, the trade off to that is being able to contribute to my retirement as well.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, hold off on that. No retirement till you get student loan cleared.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Put 100% of any free money you can get your hands on on the hundred grand. If you can get done in three years, that'd be great. That's 33 a year. You probably could do that, right? If you could get done in two years, that'd be 50 a year. And you lived on beans and rice and lived like a college student, right? Hmm. That's a thought.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

The more Intense you are. The deeper you sacrifice, the faster you get out. That's how the math works. And by the way, 100% of your doctor friends are going to think you've lost your dadgum mind, okay? Because they're all stupid with money. Musicians, doctors and sports figures. Bad with money, by and large. Okay. Stereotypically, not all, but stereotypically so. Yeah. Anyway, so don't listen to other people in the medical professional. What to do with money. It's a bad place to get advice. Get advice from them on orthopedics, but not on money.

[Dr. John Deloney]

How old are you?

[Caller]

28. Almost 29.

[Dr. John Deloney]

All right, can I paint you a picture real quick? You at 34, you don't owe anybody any money. You're a board certified orthopedic surgeon heading out into the world making 600, making, yeah. Half million dollars. And you get to keep a hundred percent of it because you've got, you've got attendings that you've got supervisors who are still paying off their student loans. Don't you?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yes. Don't be one of them. Be 34 years old making a half a million dollars to start before you end up buying your own practice a few years later and keep 100% of your money based off decisions you decided to make at 29.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. So I would say sit down and map it out in detail, but 24 to 36 months, I'd be clear of this and then we can talk about saving towards retirement and, or saving towards anything else. And your milit service is what's done this for you, where you're getting out with only 100. And now you're in a position to clear that because you've got some income from the military service and you've got a great residency and obviously you're bright. So just apply a system to this like you were prescribing this to a patient. You say, okay, either you do the physical therapy or you'll walk with a limp. You get your choice. So do the physical therapy.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's what John and I are saying. Do the hard stuff now so that you can walk properly later. And I trying to find a metaphor

[Dr. John Deloney]

that fits, no pun intended for the orthopedic surgery.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, I was. Pun totally intended, but hey, I think

[Dr. John Deloney]

that's the third call this hour, Dave. Whenever you get that first big paycheck, you cross that first big finish line. If you can hold tight, you set yourself up forever. And I, I man, I've lived it. I get it. You cross that finish line and it's like crossing mile one of a marathon. And you just want to be so happy that you ran a good one mile time. You gotta keep running. And man, if I could tell anybody whether you're just graduating from med school, head into residency, just like that caller in the very first call we took, that young man who is, man, been down on his luck. He got a job making 65, which for him is a million dollars. If you can just hang tight and consider future, you at five years down the road, 10 years down the road, man, you could set yourself up forever.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. So the deeper you can cut Kenneth and the, the less you can live on. Make a game out of it, you know, and say, all right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna set this up for 24 months. And it'll be like holding your breath for 24 months and, and then you can excel after that. You can start retirement. You can start a lot of stuff, build your emergency fund up. You can do, you know, do a lot of stuff once you're clear of that. But if you tinker around with these student loans people, you end up keeping them like you think they're a pet. And you look up 15 years later and your student loan needs a shave. I mean, it's ridiculous, you know, so it's these problems. There's a problem. Alvaro is with us in Kansas City. Hey, Alvaro, what's up?

[Caller]

Hey, what's going on, Dave? Hey, John. I'm grateful for this call and just want to say thank you for answering.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, thank you. How can we help?

[Caller]

Yeah, so this is where I'm at. I make 160. My wife makes 90. We. So 250 grows.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow.

[Caller]

We live on about half our take home after taxes tithe and 401k.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow.

[Caller]

So we save about 6k a month.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow.

[Caller]

Our house is worth 350 with 119 left on the mortgage at a 3.5 APY. And my current, my previous plan was let's just throw all the cash, be completely paid off by October next year, and then save up about 120 in two years to move into a new house. What's happened since then is that one street over, someone got shot and killed. And about a year and a half prior to this, there's been other shootings.

[Dave Ramsey]

So it's a $400,000 neighborhood. They're shooting up and down the street in Kansas City.

[Caller]

Yeah, it's a busy road. And so it's not the neighbors, thankfully, but it's just people randomly walking at night.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's strange. Okay. Because this doesn't sound like it's in the hood or something.

[Caller]

No, no. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you don't want to live in a shooting gallery, so you're going to move. Okay.

[Caller]

Yep. But the plan was first, you know, paid off, completely save up again. But now what I'm doing is I'm just saving for that next down payment. And we wanted to keep this home as a rental long term.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, not now. If you don't want to live there, why do you want to own it?

[Caller]

Right?

[Dave Ramsey]

That's not an investment. I mean, you don't buy investments where you don't worry, oh, the neighborhood's going down. They're shooting up and down the street. That's a great place to invest. No,

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah. I would pause. The only thing holding you back, brother, is you have this fantasy that this was going to be a rental house.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So if you can let that story go, you're free.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sell it. Go buy your house, pay. Pay that house off and then save up some money and go buy you a rental in a neighborhood that they don't shoot down the street.

[Caller]

Okay. So do you still think I should wait and pay it off, pay down my mortgage?

[Dave Ramsey]

I thought you were gonna, I thought you were unsafe and you were gonna leave.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, I put a sale sign in the yard this weekend.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

If that's, if that's what you want to do.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, is it unsafe or not?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[Caller]

So that's, That's a weird thing. I, I feel like there's been these pockets of unsafety, but it's generally feels safe.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Are you married?

[Caller]

Yep.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Does your wife.

[Caller]

One year old daughter. Eventually. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

No. Does she want to move because of this?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Then move.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Move.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I'm just telling you what to, what I would do if I was in your situation.

[Dave Ramsey]

Absolutely. I'd be out of there. But. But for the same reasons that you're not going to live there, you don't keep it as an investment. I don't, I don't buy investments where they shoot down the street. It's not like. No, that's not going to go up in value. You're not going to get great return and great quality renters, kind of. What kind of renter are you going to get where they shoot down the street? The cokehead, man. I mean, that's. No, thank you,

[Caller]

Sam.

[Rachel Cruz]

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[George Camel]

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[Rachel Cruz]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fair Winds credit union studio. Dr. John Deloney Ramsey personality. Number one best selling author is my co host. Today Jessica is in Austin, Texas. Hi Jessica.

[Caller]

How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up in your world?

[Caller]

Yeah. So I have been married to my husband 16 years now. We have four kids. I'm contemplating if we should divorce or not. We are completely drowning in debt. Our mortgage is in forbearance. He hasn't filed taxes in three years. It's just like snowball, one thing after the Next, right? Like $48,000 in debt. I don't know what to do.

[Dave Ramsey]

What do you make?

[Caller]

I make about 30,000 a year. I work at a school.

[Dave Ramsey]

What does he make?

[Caller]

Well, he's been out of work since December and he told me he was leaving in March to go out of state to work with some friends. And he really hasn't sent me anything.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Is he still gone?

[Caller]

Yes, he's still gone.

[Dave Ramsey]

So if

[Dr. John Deloney]

behavior is a language, has he told you through his actions I'm leaving you?

[Caller]

Yeah, I mean in March we went to our marriage counseling session. We'd been going for six years and after about five minutes of me talking, he ended up leaving and told me he was done.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And it sounds like he's followed through on that. He left you, he's left the house.

[Caller]

I agree, I agree. But then he flew home last week to see our kids for their birthdays and basically was like, I still love you. I don't want to get a divorce. But then he left again and he's been gone for a week and a half now and I've only heard from him once.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, I hate this for you. I think it's just. It sounds to me just as a. As a neutral third party guy. I'm just a dude on the radio. It seems really clear to me what's happened.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And being. Being home for a couple of days or one day, seeing the kids, them being excited he got home, you seeing him, kind of surprised I can even go that with him that he liked the idea of that.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But his actions are not of a man who wants to be married and build a life with somebody. His actions are not of somebody who wants to be a father.

[Dave Ramsey]

Is he sending checks?

[Dr. John Deloney]

No. He didn't send any money?

[Caller]

No. He hasn't sent me.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yes. I think. I think it's metabolizing this awful, heartbreaking truth. He left you.

[Dave Ramsey]

You have any idea what he makes?

[Dr. John Deloney]

Nothing.

[Caller]

I don't think right now he's not really making anything. He. He told me that he and some friends out of state wanted to start up their own company. And basically all the money that they've been making has been put back into the company. He. He said that he paid off a. In March. I'm sorry, not March, in May. But in reality I paid like 90% of the bills in May and I've paid at least a quarter of them for June. But I can't really afford to continue to pay anything else. Our mortgage is put into forbearance.

[Dave Ramsey]

What is your home. What's your home worth?

[Caller]

Well, it looks like we still owe 403,000. We bought it for 421.

[Dave Ramsey]

But was it worth 15,000?

[Caller]

The realtor came by and pretty much said because there's a ton of unfinished projects, he could probably sell it for 430. But he said if we get all

[Dave Ramsey]

the projects designed, you basically get out of it even.

[Caller]

Yeah, but I, with having that realtor over, discovered that only his name is on the house.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't think that matters in Texas.

[Caller]

Yeah.

I'm not sure I think you're going

[Dr. John Deloney]

to be okay on that.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you've been married 16 years. I think you have marital rights to that house.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah. And let's back up a little bit. This is not a person of integrity. Your husband, he hadn't paid taxes in three years. I promise you he hasn't told you the truth about everything over the course of 16 years. Is that true?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay. So I Wouldn't believe him. Yeah, I wouldn't believe him. If he suddenly started telling you he's got to reinvest all this money. Here's the truth. You have no idea where he is and what he's doing.

[Caller]

Exactly.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And so all you can deal with is you. The only person you can control right now is you. And I feel like you're. You're attached to a weight that's pulling you underwater. And it. The weight occasionally says, I want to swim, but you're the one paying the price for that right now.

[Caller]

Now?

Yeah, I mean, we're completely trauma bonded. He got shot in 20, 22 and it completely shook our family.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I got that. I got that. Listen, listen, be very careful. This, be careful of what I would call therapy speak, Internet speak, all that kind of stuff right now.

[Dave Ramsey]

The bottom line is your husband's not been home and he's not sent any money home for a long time after he walked out of the marriage counselor's office and said, I'm done, and you

[Dr. John Deloney]

got four kids who are hungry.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's real.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yes.

[Caller]

Right?

[Dave Ramsey]

That's not on TikTok. That's real.

[Caller]

That's real, exactly. Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And so the question before you is forget the diagnostics, forget the trauma, but all that stuff, the question you gotta ask yourself, and this is a hard one, what are you gonna do now?

[Caller]

Well, that's what I'm calling you for. I can't afford to leave. I can barely afford to take care of me or the kids right now. I can barely afford gas to get myself to go to work right now.

[Dave Ramsey]

You could live in a much cheaper place than that house.

[Caller]

Oh. I mean, I'm going to have to on it.

[Dave Ramsey]

I know.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you're somebody making the payments now, aren't they?

[Dr. John Deloney]

No, it's in forbearance.

[Dave Ramsey]

No forbearance as you make a payment and a half.

[Caller]

No, we haven't made any payment. We owe 50.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's not forbearance, that's default.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Are you in foreclosure?

[Caller]

Well, no, the paperwork that I have, it says forbearance.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay? Forbearance is when you're making your payment plus some to catch up on your back payments. You are not doing that. You're not in forbearance. Okay, okay, you are in. You're in default. How many, how long has it been since y' all paid a payment?

[Caller]

March?

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, you're in default. You need to get this house on the market today. You're going to lose it, right? And then you're going to get.

[Caller]

How do I do that when it's in his name? Because I had two realtors come over and they both told me that all the projects need to be done.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're not going to do the projects. You don't have any money, and you don't have anybody to do the projects. So you need to put the house on the market and you need to sell it now. And you need to call him and tell him we're selling the house and that I'm having a divorce. And I'm having divorce papers filed on you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That may be the only way you can get your name on there is through divorce settlement.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm not sure there's any money. I don't care. I don't know if you want your money and name on it.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's not going to bring enough to cover the bills. And if it does, you know, we'll argue about it then.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But if she puts it on the market and he says, I don't want to sell it from afar, can he do that? If he's his only name on there,

[Dave Ramsey]

that'll be up to her divorce attorney.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

To convince him.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You may have to get a decree.

[Dave Ramsey]

He has four children. And by the way, there's child support due and probably alimony. I don't know if they do alimony in Texas or not, but I know they do child support. And so child support doesn't care if you want to reinvest back into your company. Yeah, the law doesn't care. It says you have four children that need to be fed. That's what it says. And since March. That ain't cool. Yeah, that ain't cool.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And, Jessica, can we say that I hate this for you, man? I hate this for you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Golly.

[Dave Ramsey]

Daddy needs to be feeding to babies. Time to do it, bud. So you don't get to go off and play with your friends in another land. It's not how this works. You made babies, you get to feed them. That's how. That's how a functioning society works. And we that are functioning will make you do that. And we should. So, yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I'm sorry, Jessica.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm sorry you're going through this. I think you're done, hon.

[Caller]

Foreign.

[George Camel]

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[Dave Ramsey]

The rich get rich and the poor get poorer. Most of the time when you hear someone say that they're trying to make the point that they are stuck and that all the opportunity is gone and capitalism has ruined their life. But if you actually think about that saying, you could ask yourself, okay, if that's true, why is it true? The rich get richer because the rich keep doing the stuff that got them rich rich people. Stuff like live on less than you make, stay out of debt, be generous, be in agreement with your spouse. This is what rich people do. That's how they got rich. And they keep doing rich people's stuff and it makes them richer. Poor people. There's two reasons people are poor. One is, I mean, in America anyway, in the United States of America, where poor people are some of the richest people in the world. But in America, there's two reasons people are poor. One is they're being oppressed and some jerk, some predator is taking advantage of them and holding them down. That is real. That happens all the time. And in other words, if you drive down the poor end of town, you'll see payday lenders, tote to note, car lots, rent to own, pawn shops. You don't see those in the rich end of town because they wouldn't stay in business because rich people don't do that stuff. That's poor people stuff. That's people taking advantage of poor people, right? The other reason poor people are poor is when I was poor, actually, I was not poor. I was just broke. Mike Todd said that there's a difference between being poor and being broke. Poor is a state of mind. Broke is, I'm just passing through. I ain't gonna stay here. I'm gonna do something to get out. I've been broke a couple times in my life. When I started and then when I went broke. So if you do broke people stuff stuff, you'll continue to be broke. If you do rich people stuff, you'll continue to be rich. Let me tell you, if you're going to win at anything, what you have to do, you have to have a plan to win and execute on the plan. In money. That's called doing a budget. You lay out and you tell your money what to do because you want it to do something good instead of just pissing it away. Thank God it's Friday. Oh God, it's Monday. Said all the broke people just take it easy and they mean it. Don't take it easy. Get up off your butt and kill something and drag it on. Have a plan. This is where the EveryDollar budgeting app came from. It is the detailed plan that will help you execute the stuff we teach here. If you want to do things on purpose, if you want to do rich people stuff stuff, you can download it for free in the App Store or in Google Play. Mike is with us in Austin, Texas. Hey, Mike, what's up?

[Caller]

Hey, Dave. How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. How can I help?

[Caller]

Yeah, Mike, Dave, I'm. I'm considering retiring sometime in the next six months to a year.

[Dave Ramsey]

Fun.

[Caller]

And I'm. I spent some time, you know, learning to invest a way that worked for me. I made some mistakes early on and this will be the first time that I've, instead of contributing and having that monthly income for my monthly cost of living expenses that I'll actually, instead of contributing to retirement or to an investment account that I'm actually going to be withdrawing from my cost of living. And I'm wanting to see if there's things that I can avoid up front that I lessons learned that I had to learn the hard way early on when I was younger, when I was investing.

[Dave Ramsey]

How much do you have in your nest

[Caller]

without the house? About 7.8 million.

[Dave Ramsey]

Way to go, stud. I'm so proud of you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Oh, man, Mike, I thought you were after. You're after. You set that up. I thought you were going to say you had about 30,000 bucks.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what is that 7.8 in. Is that all in retirement account accounts?

[Caller]

It's in 401k. It's in index funds and then some stocks and then a couple years of cash.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right, Very cool.

[Dr. John Deloney]

When's the last time you did a cartwheel? Because if you haven't done one Recently. You should start.

[Dave Ramsey]

Way to go, man. How much of this did you inherit?

[Caller]

None. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Look at you. I'm so proud of you. Well done, sir. Well, you need to sit down with your financial advisor, I'm sure you have one, and ask them what the tax efficient withdrawals are the least efficient with.

[Caller]

That's my big question.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, the least efficient. How old are you?

[Caller]

55.

[Dave Ramsey]

55, okay.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're not going to be able to touch your 401ks, as you know, until after 59 and a half. But you don't want to touch them anyway because everything you're withdrawing there is going to be ordinary income, as you know. And you've got, if you've got some index funds that have appreciated your withdrawals on that will be at capital G. So that's pretty tax efficient. You probably have some stocks that you could begin to liquidate that the gains would be a capital gains rate because you've held them more than a year. And so capital gains rate, what's your income?

[Caller]

About 350.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. If you break that, I believe it used to be 400, I think it may be 450 now. Then you get into a 20% capital gain instead of a 15. But talk to your tax advisor, your financial advisor. But I think you're going to liquidate the non 401k stuff first. And you're not gonna liquidate anything. You're probably just gonna take the income off of it, the growth.

[Caller]

Yeah, I just, I just want what I need to live on monthly.

[Dave Ramsey]

Now. How much have you got, say in index funds?

[Caller]

I would say about 4 million.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And so you know, the market is already up just under 10% for the year on index funds. Okay.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Which would be $400,000 so far this year, which is more than you need.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. So you could live off of a portion of the income created from the index funds easily and have very minimal taxes on that. Now having said that, I want you to also sit with your tax advisor and your financial advisor and begin a strategy to start moving some of the 401k money, money on a steady stream into Roth and pay taxes on it now because how much is in 401k again?

[Caller]

About 3 million.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. So that's going to roughly, if it's in good mutual funds, it's going to double about every seven years. So when you're 62, that's 6 million. When you're 69, that's 12 million. And all of that is taxable at ordinary income and taxable to your kids at ordinary income. It sucks. And you've got required minimum distributions at 73. 72 and a half.

[Caller]

That's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. RMDs. So because of that I'm 66 or getting ready to be. I have years ago moved everything into Roth and went ahead and paid taxes on it before it doubled. So all the doubling has zero taxes and the inheritance has zero taxes.

[Caller]

That's great. Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because roth is inherited DAC as well. So. And I don't have RMDs.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because it's in Roth. So I want you to begin to move that 3 million at a steady pace and pay some taxes to do it to Roth because before it doubles and triples and quadruples, I want it to be in tax free growth and all that doubling and quadrupling and so forth will be. Dad gum, son.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay, so if I'm M. 7.8, I. I think I would cash out stocks today and pay it all in one lump, lump sum now if I could. Is that, would that be dumb?

[Dave Ramsey]

No, it would not be dumb. Depending on the capital gains might kill me on. He's making. He's already making 400. So yeah, probably not be dumb because you're probably maxed out on taxes. Either way, your RMDs are going to max you out on taxes. So.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, that'd be one. One to write these.

[Dave Ramsey]

These numbers are. So does it changes the equations. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah, I think you might be right, John. But I, I just, I change everything to Roth instantaneously every time I get anything that's not Roth. And so I just go ahead and pay the taxes right then.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so there, there's a case to be made to move the whole 3 million this year to Roth and just bite that bullet.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's one ugly tax payment and you'll never make one again.

[Dave Ramsey]

On that.

[Dr. John Deloney]

On that. That money.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. If you keep putting money in 401k, you got to change that to Roth as well and go with that. Your match is never in Roth and so you got to convert it to Roth at the end of the year every year. That's what I do. But yeah. Wow.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well done, brother.

[Rachel Cruz]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Ramsey Show Question of the day is brought to you by why Refi? If you've fallen behind on your private student loans and don't know where to turn, why Refi works with borrowers, other lenders that won't. They won't help them and they'll help you. Why refi will find low fixed rate refinancing options. Go to y refi.com Ramsey that's the letter y r e f y.com Ramsey might not be available in all states.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Today's question comes from Sierra in Mississippi. Sierra writes, I've been engaged for three years, but after finding out last weekend that my fiance cheated on me, I called off the wedding. He had talked me into financing our $8,000 wedding rings and now refuses to help pay them off. The debt is in my name. Would it be smart to get another loan to pay off these rings if the current interest is really high? I have four kids to support, so every cent that comes into my account match matters. I just want to move forward. How do I do it? I honestly, Sierra, here's what I would do. You did a big, hard, scary thing by saying I'm worth more getting married to somebody who's not going to cheat on me. So I'm not doing this.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good for you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Good. Yeah, exactly. Good for you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Smart girl.

[Dr. John Deloney]

The next sentence he talked me into financing our $8,000 wedding rings. I would stop right there and I'd reframe this as as I chose to finance our $8,000 wedding rings. Take full ownership of every action you took and then that reframes this whole thing. I made a big decision that I'm worth more than this. And that big decision also came with a financial cost because I chose to finance expensive, expensive wedding rings. And I'm going to be in charge of of dealing with what comes next? And I get, man, you got four kids. It's. It's just brutal. It's brutal. But getting another loan to cover up another, it's just. You're just going to compound this issue? I would.

[Dave Ramsey]

Number one, we're going to sell the rings.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Sell? Yeah, sell the rings and then pay the difference. That's what I would do.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Sell the rings and pay the difference as fast as you can. Yeah. Now, there's two other things I'd add to it. Number one, I don't know how long you've had the rings. We don't know that in this particular email. I'd swing back by that jewelry store, ask for the manager, the owner, if it's a local store, and tell them your story and say, I have four children, the guy's a bum, he cheated on me and you don't owe me anything. But would you help me, Mercy? Would you give me some credit? Buy them back. Will you help me get out of this message? Can I put them in here on consignment and get the most form at a retail setting versus pawning them? You know, help me. And don't come in there acting like the jewelry store did something wrong. They didn't. They did what jewelry stores do, they sold your rings and you financed them and that's them. That's. That's on you. But just ask the owner or the manager for some Mercy, some help. I think you'll find yourself a listening ear because they sell wedding rings and they might sell you another one someday. And if they take care of you, guess who's going to hear about it? Everyone. You know, you're going to say nice things about those people and you would, and you should. That's thing number one. Thing number two is I don't know what all is going on here, But I'm pretty pissed at this guy right this second. And so I would. Let's just pretend I'm gonna make something up, okay? She has four kids. These aren't a couple of 18 year olds, okay? So I'm gonna pretend he has some money and he's a jerk and won't pay his part of the rings. I'm gonna pretend that for a second. And so then I'm gonna ask a family friend that's an attorney to contact him and let him know that we're going to sue him for breach of contract because he breached our marriage contract when he cheated on me. And the settlement is $8,000. I'm just going to mess with him just for the fun of it, I'm not really going to do it, but I'm actually going to make him think I'm going to do it just to have some fun here. But now if he's a broke jerk and he's just out digging ditches or whatever, leave him alone. It's not worth the trouble. But I'm just going to pretend that he has a big old pile of money, he's driving fancy car and he don't want the hassle of Sierra being all up in his business. So between those two things, maybe we can add a little edge to this and get. Get you out of these rings. Wow. One, one I go for mercy. The other one I go for the throat.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Go for the, Go for blood.

[Dave Ramsey]

Please give me mercy. I'm going to kill you, by the way.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I, I, I, I want to, I want to harp on this line. I just want to move forward. But how do I do it?

[Dave Ramsey]

That's good.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Take action.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's good. Take action. Take action.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Take action.

[Dave Ramsey]

Don't sit and look at the rings. Don't keep them in your house. Get rid of them.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Don't use his name in your house anymore.

[Dave Ramsey]

Lay out a game plan. And if you do this attorney thing, I'm half joking. I'm half not. But if you did something like that, make it real quick and it's over and it's in the rear view mirror. Just see if we can get him. Write a check just for the fun of it because he actually morally, ethically does owe. Yeah. This back because he's the one that breached the contract. Actually, if you really want to be technical about it. So not. I'm talking about the law. I'm talking about ethics.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Do you have a contract? If you shake hands on a.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's a contract on. On a paper. It's engagement. Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's a lot.

[Dave Ramsey]

It is a contract. You made a promise and based on that promise there was a financial transaction.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so there's damage. Ages. And I, I'm not an attorney. I'm just going to have some fun with it.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Just happen to be 8,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm going to make a legal case out of it. Even if there's not one. I would say move forward and leave it alone.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Don't say his name again in your house. That means I'm going to own that I sign my name to.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Quick as you can financing because you

[Dave Ramsey]

can move on past this. Your heart's broken.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I do love the idea of going back and looking the jewel in the eye. They may tell you to leave. What's the worst case scenario? You're going to get back in your car in the same situation and you're not out anything. But man, that's. That's. It's worth asking for mercy. That's cool.

[Dave Ramsey]

Chris, Kirsten is in Orlando. Hi, Kirsten. How are you?

[Caller]

Hi, Gabe. I'm good. How are you guys?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than we deserve. What's up?

[Caller]

Okay, so I just have some little questions. Me and my husband opened up a company about three years ago now. It has flourished into something. We never expected it to. Kind of just dreamed of it to. I just want to know if I'm doing the right thing by paying him what we need because we do have credit card debt and stuff. Car loans, excavator loan, that kind of things. House loan. So I'm just trying to figure out

[Dave Ramsey]

if I can, because everybody has an excavator loan. What in the world?

[Caller]

I know.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm guessing you got in the dirt moving business, right?

[Caller]

We own a natural gas and propane company, so we install the gas lines for generators, cook stoves, water heaters.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you bought a backhoe. Yeah. An excavator? Yeah. Okay. What'd you pay for the excavator to dig a $400 ditch?

[Caller]

We paid about 37,000 for it.

It.

We financed. Yes. We did it when we first opened up the company because to put some of these tanks in the ground, you. He can't hand dig them.

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

But you could rent one.

[Caller]

Yes, but it was. We were. We were spending about $10,000 a month renting one.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, you weren't.

[Dr. John Deloney]

10 grand?

[Caller]

It was. Yeah, it was about $600 a day.

[Dave Ramsey]

If you were spending 10 grand a month, why didn't you just pay cash in three months? Months?

[Caller]

Because we didn't know what to do with the money.

[Dave Ramsey]

But you still didn't know. Okay, so what is the. What's the. What's the profits on your propane tank business?

[Caller]

So profit was close to 100,000 last year.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And that's what you paid taxes on? That was the profit?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that was before or after you paid your husband a salary for running the business?

[Caller]

Business after.

[Dave Ramsey]

What does he get paid?

[Caller]

We pay him about 1500 a week.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so another 72,000. So include your household income from this business would be 172,000.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

And. And how much debt do you have?

[Caller]

We have quite a bit. We were young and died. We had credit cards. This week alone, we paid about $6,500 just in credit card debt just from a cash savings we've had over the years. Just stuffing it away. We still have a remaining amount.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'll tell you what, hang on. I'm gonna have to get the rest of this story because I got right down in the middle of it and I can't get to the end of it in the next 20 seconds. When I started, I had great ideas and I knew how to serve people, but I didn't have systems in place yet. At that time, I sold books out of the trunk of my car. It was a lot harder to start a business back then. Shopify makes it easy. Shopify is the business platform powering millions of businesses and about 10% of all E commerce in the United States. If you've got a product or even just an idea, Shopify makes it simple to get moving. You can build a storefront, write product descriptions, and even improve your product photos all in one place. You don't need 10 different systems duct taped together. Shopify handles everything you need to make sales, from payments to marketing and analytics. Plus, that purple shop pay button is one of the best converting checkouts on the planet for fewer abandoned carts. And if you get stuck, Shopify offers 24. 7 support. So if you've been sitting on the sidelines, it's time to turn those ideas into. Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com Ramsey that's shopify.com Ramsey Ramsey. Shopify.com Ramsey. All right, we're talking with Kirsten in Orlando. They start a propane tank business. And. And last year they made 100,000 profit plus paid him 72,000. So I make $172,000 on the business to the household. And they've begun paying off debt. Paid off some credit card debt the other day. Now, total, not counting your home. Kirsten, what kind of debt do you have and how much is it?

[Caller]

So we owe 57,000 on my car. We owe 26,932 on the excavator and about 7,000 left in credit card.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, and what kind of. Why do we have a $60,000 car?

[Caller]

So my car's transmission was going out, and I've always dreamed of having, like, a bigger SUV because I'm a sports mom. So my husband bought me a 2024 Ford Expedition Max.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, okay, you need to say that sentence a different way. All right. We bought a car that was super expensive.

[Caller]

Yes.

We did not.

[Dave Ramsey]

My husband bought me. You guys made this decision together?

[Caller]

No, we did.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I dreamed of putting myself Into a nightmarish car debt. Okay, no, there was nothing in this that makes it okay. But no one forced you to do this. So anyway, you paid off 6,500 out of savings. But if you've got 172 coming in. What did you guys used to make before you started this business?

[Caller]

He worked full time. I've always been a stay at home mom. Our kids are 5 and 8.

[Dave Ramsey]

What did you use to make make before you started this business?

[Caller]

He made around about the same between 60 to 70.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, no, now you make 172. This is not the same.

[Caller]

Yes, if you pull from the business, that's one thing.

[Dave Ramsey]

Of course we pull from the business. We're broke and we bought a car we can't afford and we're in debt. Of course we're pulling from the business. Business. So what you do, does the business have any debt that you failed to mention?

[Caller]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so just the excavator. That's it. That was the only thing you bought for the business on debt?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, good, good. Okay. So what I would do if I was in your situation is you have no. The business is able to run off of cash flow and run the budget and able to buy the things it needs to buy and it still nets you guys 172. So you're going to pay taxes on 172 because you got 72 set up as your income and then you got 100 in profit. Both of those are taxable events in any given calendar year that that occurs. So I'm going to bring most, if not all of that home and I'm going to pay off this debt this year, live on the 72 and be debt free. If you're unwilling to do that for some reason, then you need to sell this stupid car. Okay, the car is not stupid. The debt on it was stupid. You bought a car that was completely outside the picture. And the next time the business needs a piece of equipment, it needs to save up out of profits and pay cash for the equipment. Equipment?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so the number of times I have seen people in Europe in the construction world buy equipment that they can't afford because they act like the rental fees are killing them. And if the rental fees were literally $10,000 a month, that's $120,000 a year in rental fees. I don't believe you. I think your numbers are wrong. I'm positive your numbers are wrong. But it doesn't cost $10,000 a month to rent a backhoe from rental place because you don't need it every day, all day long. You need it for a few hours to dig the ditch, dig the hole, and then you drop it back off at Sunbelt or whoever you're renting it from. And that's what people in the construction business do all the time instead of buying $60,000 backhoes.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And even if it did, Dave, what is the hesitancy of a, of a small business owner? Like let's say for instance, it was 10,000 bucks a month and they, she bought a, or they bought a $37,000 backhoe. Why wouldn't you, as a small business, we, we've, we went into debt, bought this depreciating asset. We're going to hold off for four months and just with the money we would have spent anyway. And just pay the sucker off.

[Dave Ramsey]

In four months.

[Dr. John Deloney]

In four months.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I, I, I talk to small business owners all the time. What is that hesitancy to pull the money out of the business? Business?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. The idea that some, well, you have to pull it out because it's taxable, so it's, it's technically out of the business. If it's an LLC or a sub S, which it should be, it's 100% taxable. And so it's out even if it's sitting in the business account. Ramsey, my money here, if I make a profit here, just because I leave it in the Ramsey account doesn't help me. I still got to pay taxes on it.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, the federal government still comes and takes a chunk of my butt. And so, you know, I didn't really leave it in the business. It's just after taxes or some money still sitting here. But it could be sitting at home. It can be sitting here.

[Rachel Cruz]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

It doesn't matter. The only reason I would leave it sitting here is if I'm getting ready to spend it on something inside the

[Dr. John Deloney]

business or if you have a retained earnings account or something. But exactly. But even there, like if my business has that kind of debt on, seems like I just paid it off.

[Dave Ramsey]

You would clear it in four months at least. Because if the rental fees were really $10,000, you should have been able to put $10,000 increase cash flow right on that thing and been done within four months instantly.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you got to have that kind of discipline on these equipment purchase decisions because they'll catch up with you. There's two things that kill small business startups like this, and they're doing great. Congratulations. Kirsten I'm glad. I'm happy y' all are doing so good. And that's exactly what I'd do. I'd live on 72, I'd pull 100 out of there and I'd be a debt. Simple as that. And the next time you get ready to buy a car, you pay for it or you don't buy it. Next time you get ready to buy equipment, you pay for it or you don't buy it. Just live your life that way and you'll have a lot simpler, a lot cleaner life. Now then back to the other thing. The things that kill small businesses is the one thing that kills them is cash flow. Because they don't keep up with their taxes, they don't keep their books, they don't do their quarterly estimates and then they get in debt. It's the second thing. And both of those cause cash flow problems. Number one reason for small business failure is cash flow flow problems. Translation tax problem, not paid and debt problem. So they 76% of the small businesses in America are carrying credit card debt on the business. They used a stupid MasterCard to do a business finance. I mean this is insane at 30 something percent. Yeah. So. And then wonder why I have cash flow problems. Okay, now she didn't do that. Or they may have, but they just paid off the 6,000 the other day. But I don't know if that's business or personal. But so you gotta stay out of debt. Then the second thing that kills small businesses is what's killing her. It grows so fast that you don't keep your accounting systems in place and your other processes and systems in place, they don't keep up. You're still running it in the mentality of out of my back pocket. And that's what causes people to leave $100,000 laying there because they don't know what to do.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But the federal government, it doesn't. They they've taxed that 100 and that 72 the same.

[Dave Ramsey]

Exactly.

[Dr. John Deloney]

They've got their piece of it. So if you want to keep a piece of it in that account or this and this account, they don't care.

[Dave Ramsey]

Exactly.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's y' all just choosing to carry debt at your house and leave that money there.

[Dave Ramsey]

Exactly. Might as well take it home.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Might as well clear your debt, pay

[Dave Ramsey]

your tax, pay your taxes and clear it off. But so success is the second thing. Rapid success, hockey stick growth up into the right that crashes businesses because they dump get quality people on their team and they don't put systems and Accounting systems and overall systems and processes in place that keep you from doing this. You know, something like retained earnings, something like keeping up with your taxes and all those kinds of things. You got to keep up with that. And because you're just making money so fast, and you've never seen that kind of money. Your eyes are kind of wide. You're in the street going, whoa, don't hit me with a car. You know, and it's like, wow, I can't, I can't, I can't. How can I mess this up? We're just. We got a warehouse full of cash back here. We're just stacking. Stacking Benjamins. Right. And. But you can't out earn bad processes and bad accounting. It'll catch up with you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Well, and I've. I've known some guys who got into construction who scratched and clawed for so long, and then when it hits, they can't say no to anything.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yep.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Because they still live five years ago when they had to say yes to every job. And then they get way overextended.

[Dave Ramsey]

Get over skis. Yeah, get over your skis big time. That's what happens. And so, yeah, you guys got to catch up with that. It sounds like you got a good business. It sounds like you're hard workers. Sounds like you're doing a good thing. But that's a couple of things. Don't be buying anything else unless you pay for it. Get this stuff paid off and then get your systems caught up and really understand where you are with your taxes so that you don't get burnt. Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fair Winds Credit Union studio. Elizabeth is in Grand Rapids. Hi, Elizabeth. Elizabeth, how are you?

[Caller]

Oh, I'm good.

How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Caller]

I have a question. Quandary. My husband and I have been in our house for five years and I'm on Social Security and we have two separate bank accounts. And I'm afraid to put my Social Security in the bank because he won't pay the mortgage. Should I put my Social Security in the bank? Bank with our joint account.

[Dave Ramsey]

How old are you guys?

[Caller]

He's 56 and I'm 55.

[Dr. John Deloney]

How long have y' all been living like that?

[Dave Ramsey]

Did you say 66 and 65?

[Dr. John Deloney]

55. 56.

[Dave Ramsey]

How are you getting Social Security at 55?

[Caller]

I'm disability. I'm disabled. I'm on disability.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you have SSI coming in. What's the nature of your disability?

[Caller]

Seizures and epilepsy.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Wow.

[Dave Ramsey]

How long you been facing that of kind, kiddo.

[Caller]

I found out back in 95, I was diagnosed. But 20. 20. 2015.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And he is 57. And he makes.

[Caller]

What.

[Dave Ramsey]

How much money does he make?

[Caller]

He's 56, and he makes $23 an hour, and he's also on door dash during the day, and he's. He. I mean, I'm settled with the mortgage, and he's not giving any.

[Dave Ramsey]

Why?

[Caller]

He doesn't. He said he's. He's trying to figure it out. That's all he gives me. That's all.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's all he needs time to figure it out.

[Caller]

He's been saying that since he bought the house, and it's almost been five years.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, well, while you're figuring it out, go get another place to live, because I'm not gonna let you stay here anymore.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It sounds like you've made peace with this arrangement. If you. I don't. It doesn't sound healthy, but if that's the world that you choose to inhabit. No, I would not put money in an account where he's going to spend it, and I'm not. I'm going to get kicked out of the house.

[Caller]

Okay. I mean, I'm hearing from my family that I shouldn't be paying the mortgage and he should be because he's the husband.

[Dave Ramsey]

How about. How about both of you should be putting all of your money in the account, and both of you should be deciding what is happening to our money, which includes paying the mortgage on our house. That's what normal, healthy people do. Y' all are whack.

[Caller]

No, he is. I mean, he's.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, you put up with it, which makes you whack.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah, I've been told that. And I've. We almost lost the house. Like, not even. In fact, the year of COVID we were on forbearance, and it was like I. I left them.

Why?

[Dave Ramsey]

Why. Why would you be on forbearance? You had Social Security coming in whether Covid came in or not.

[Caller]

I know.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you were the one paying the bill?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Why did the bill not get paid?

[Caller]

Because. Because he's the primary signer.

[Dave Ramsey]

No.

[Caller]

And you.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're the one has paid the bill for five years. Right?

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

So during COVID why were you not the one paying the. The bill?

[Caller]

Because. Because I was with my family, and. And he was unemployed at the time. And. And after I get. After I pay the mortgage, I'm left with almost nothing.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I know y'. All.

[Rachel Cruz]

You're.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You're talking about your home. Like, me and My two college roommates talked about our. Our little town home that we shared in college.

[Caller]

Right. Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Like, hey, man, I bought pizza, so you got to pay the light bill and. No, the water. It's.

[Dave Ramsey]

I know how long y' all been married.

[Caller]

Sixteen long years in September.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I mean, so this is the world y' all have co created together. And it sounds like it's annoying to you, but not annoying enough to leave it. Right?

[Caller]

People told me to leave him.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I know.

[Caller]

I just.

[Dave Ramsey]

We're not telling you to leave him. This is just. But.

[Caller]

But.

[Dave Ramsey]

So, no, listen. There's not a good way for you to manage the situation that you told us about, because the situation you told us about is a bad situation. There's not a good way to manage a bad situation. So the proper thing to do, and I don't think y' all are going to do it. But if I wanted to say, all right, Elizabeth and her husband of 16 long years are going to learn to work together for the good of Elizabeth and her husband. And we're going to put our money together, and we're going to put our spending together, and that includes paying all of our bills. Who's going to buy the mustard? We're both buying the mustard. We're both paying the house. Everything goes in one pile. And we work that together, and we have good communication and we talk about things y' all aren't anywhere near that. You're not even on that planet, so. And I don't know if I. I don't think I can get you there, but if I could talk you guys into it, that's what I would talk you into, because that's the only thing that is going to work here. Otherwise, you know, if you put your money into an account that he has access to, he's going to blow it. And then the house doesn't get paid because you get to pay the house. But I don't know why you're tolerating this level of misbehavior that you use up your entire Social Security check to pay the house payment, and your husband is contributing nothing to that. That is just not.

[Caller]

Not.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's not right. And so it lacks fidelity. I. I would. I would have a duck fit. You know? You ever seen a duck have a fit?

[Dr. John Deloney]

What's a duck fit?

[Dave Ramsey]

Right? I mean, it's just. I'd have a duck fit, there'd be a problem. Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Next time you get mad in a meeting, Dave, I'm like,

[Dave Ramsey]

yeah, that's. That's what it sounds like sometimes. When I'm mad in a meeting. But. Yeah, but the. Yeah, I mean, I'm not. Some things need to change here, Elizabeth. And you are going to be the cause of the change or you're going to tolerate the lack of change, Right? One of the two so far you've tolerated the lack of change and then you've got to decide if that's going to continue to be the script in your all's life. Matthew is in Pittsburgh. Hey, Matthew. What's up?

[Caller]

Hi, Dave. Thank you for all the wonderful work you do for everybody. Thank you. And your staff. I really appreciate it. Thank you for taking my call. So I have a question. I have a question regarding just remaining healthy in my financial goals and how much is too much. So right now, collectively, we have about 280,000. 210 of that is the house for a baby. Step two, I plan on having all the debt except for the house paid off by August of 2029. Hopefully when extra comes in, I can get more thrown toward that. And then the house paid off within eight more years after that and be completely debt free by the time I'm 52.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's your household income?

[Caller]

About 145,000 a year.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And you're talking about paying $22,000 a year?

[Caller]

Yeah. We all.

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Why? Why not more?

[Caller]

Well, we also started a small business because my wife's goal is to work from home. No longer work outside of the home. I'm sorry.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's great. Does it make sense? Money?

[Caller]

Yes. We. We started back in January and it's currently making about a thousand a month.

[Dave Ramsey]

Is that the 100 part of the 145,000?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so if you make 145,000, why can you not put more than $22,000 towards debt?

[Caller]

Well, some of that is going back into the business, so I had to too.

[Dave Ramsey]

Then you're not making 145,000?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Is the business making a profit of $1,000 after reinvestment or not?

[Caller]

No. No.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. I'm sorry, we don't open. A business is sucking money when we're in debt. This business needs to make money now. She quit her job to spend money. No, we're not doing that. You should not feel uncertain about investment and you don't have to. That's why we created Investing Essentials, a two night virtual event where George Camel and I walk you through my playbook for investing and wealth planning. We'll simplify everything from 401ks and mutual funds to passing on wealth. So you can invest with confidence. Tickets start at $199. Get yours [e-mail] events or click the link in the show notes. Emily is in Oklahoma City. Hi, Emily. How are you?

[Caller]

I'm good. How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Caller]

Good. So my dad left. Passed away recently, and he left me quite a bit of money. Thank you. And my fiance and I agree that it's my inheritance, but he's concerned about the financial imbalance between us, and he came from divorce, and that woman took advantage of him. And so I feel like he's kind of, like, operating out of fear. So I'm trying to figure out what fairness look looks like in our marriage and what we.

What your advice would be a prenup.

Yeah. So we have. We have that.

Okay.

We have that going.

[Dave Ramsey]

And then what does the prenup say about the. About the future growth of wealth, not the current strength state?

[Caller]

So I'm not.

I'm not sure. I've met with the lawyers. They're going to. We're.

We're saying that the.

The trust that my dad has left is mine.

I'm going to be creating a trust

where all of this is going into.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Caller]

And I guess from his side, he wants to create his own trust, and he feels like he needs to catch up. Like. Like he's not.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, he doesn't. He can't catch up unless I know he's gonna do something stupid trying to catch up.

[Dr. John Deloney]

How much money did your dad leave you?

[Caller]

Over 5 million.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. He doesn't catch up.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So the trust just sits over here as a third thing. There's you making money, and you all build money together. There's your husband, future husband, making money building money together. He doesn't need a trust. He doesn't mean money.

[Caller]

He. So he does a little bit. He does anesthesia. So we have pretty good income.

[Dave Ramsey]

Our incomes is our incomes, and we share those, and we share what we do with those going forward. He does not need a trust and he does not need to catch up. The trust is sitting over here to the side. The two of you build a life together with your incomes. I wouldn't fool with that in the thing, and I would let the trust. He has no access to that in the event of divorce. But anytime you get ready to use money, you're going to use it for us.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, and so if we decide to buy a lake house later for, you know, for a million dollars, and this trust has grown to $10 million and I pull a million dollars out and buy us a lake house. That's fine. The lake house is in the name of the trust. But we are going to use it for our family, our kids and our grandkids and whatever. I'm making up something. Okay. But you can use some of the trust money for the benefit of the family. And the stuff still lives, believes, still stays in the name of the trust. And so the money, the 5 million, and any growth it turns into stays yours. But keep it over to the side. And then y' all just combine everything else and quit trying to be, you know, like, he has to catch up.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, that's it. That's ego talking.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Caller]

I think it's more. So like, if we were to get divorced, he.

[Dave Ramsey]

Exactly.

[Caller]

He wants to have enough money for himself. I don't know.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, he does not need a problem prenup. You do.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

He doesn't have any money.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And he's an anesthesiologist. If y' all get divorced, y', all, you'll be fine.

[Dave Ramsey]

He's gonna make a lot of money. We're gonna make a lot of money together. You're marrying an anesthesiologist. He's making 400 a year, right?

[Caller]

Around three.

[Dave Ramsey]

They should be making four. Okay, but.

[Caller]

But here.

Here he's a CRNA, so it's a little.

They do the same job.

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Hear what? Hear what Dave said. That's really important. Important. There's this thing over here, but y' all are building a life together,

[Caller]

right?

[Dave Ramsey]

The fact that that $5 million landed in your lap has changed the way you all were talking about your future. And it shouldn't have.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Don't let it.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

It sits over there by itself. And then you guys still have the future you would have had together.

[Dr. John Deloney]

One checking account.

[Dave Ramsey]

We have an income.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Right.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

I made all of the income in the Ramsey household for the last 40 years. My wife has not earned a dime. But we have a great income. And there is no prenup on that income. We don't have a prenup. Anyway, we started with nothing.

[Caller]

But

[Dave Ramsey]

the point is. And we went back a couple of times, but anyway. But all that stuff say, so he has an income that's bigger than yours. But that doesn't matter. That's not in the discussion. That would not even been a discussion had the $5 million not dropped in your lap.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so it doesn't need to be a discussion now.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Y' all aren't competing with each other financially.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, we're Combining everything except the five. And the five sits over here as a separate entity, and it grows, and we handle the investments on that. And we may use some of the money. Money to buy something that the family, you and your husband and future kids, if you have any. All that kind of stuff are all going to do together. That's all great. There's nothing wrong with that. And. But. But just. Yeah. You need a prenup. That's all. That's all.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Very simple. Don't. Don't get.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Everybody has a trust because we don't trust. No, that's not good. No, I don't. He doesn't need a trust just because he's an anesthesiologist and he's not even a real one. He's just a Circle Arena. I'm kidding.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But. Oh, that was a dis.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I mean, I. He got $100,000 pay cut while I was talking to him, so. But yeah, the.

[Dr. John Deloney]

So in many ways, that. That prenup just. It builds a wall around that money, and we know it's there. Great. And we're going to move forward if. If she's presenting this as. I'm going to have this money that I can spend however I want, whenever I want to. No, he has a right to feel like, hey, there's an inequity here. Like, I feel like you're building the secret life over here, and then you come home to this. This life that we're building.

[Dave Ramsey]

Any money you take across the wall to use for personal use is our source.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's right. Is ours.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. With the exception of if you bought something like a piece of real estate, like a. Like a. If you bought a lake house in the name of the trust, pay cash for it, and then we enjoy the lake house together, that could still stay in the name of the trust. But if you're going to pull money out of this to buy a car, we're not putting the cost car in the name of the trust. We're just going to buy a car.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that. It's part of the marital property at that point. But I. I just keep this real clean and simple.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Tell me. Tell me if this is very combined. So if Sheila, my wife, got $5 million and we signed a prenup to protect that money, and we started talking about, hey, it would be awesome if we had a lake house. And she said, well, let's pull from this thing.

[Caller]

Mm.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I would want that lake house in our name. Why would we keep that lake house in that trust?

[Dave Ramsey]

Because it was a trust money that bought it. Okay. And you, you know, if you're going to say the trust is hers upon divorce. Yeah. Then if you use some of the trust money for something, it's gone.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

So stays not in the trust name. It's gone.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

She would lose that lake house in the trust in the divorce. Yeah. If you pulled it out and put it in both names or at least half of it, you know, like kind of thing. So again, that's probably not the issue. The issue is, and two, sometimes we're dealing with people that are in later stages and it's the second marriage. They got three kids each and maybe a couple grandkids each. I Talked to a 60 something year old the other day and they both had couple million bucks. Not 20 million, but a couple million. And I'm like, okay, just you, you guys, if, you know, you can leave the marriage with what you came in with and then you could just say all the growth is going to be combined.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

But they're both coming in with similar piles of money.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And what I would be careful in that case is I don't want one of your second cousins suing for my money from my kids if I die.

[Dave Ramsey]

Exactly.

[Dr. John Deloney]

This one I can feel would be a little bit messier. But he's going to have to exhale through the ego that he's not trying to compete with her. It's not. I gotta get mine now because you got yours. I gotta get.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm gonna catch up is a bad phrase.

[Dr. John Deloney]

We are building this thing together and we have this awesome stack over here.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. What if Sharon thought she had to catch up? Yeah. After not earning an income, she'd have to kill you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That'd be the quickest way to catch it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Don't, don't tell her that.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That'd be the quickest way. She doesn't listen to this.

[Dave Ramsey]

She doesn't listen.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That'd be the quickest way for her to catch job.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Well, she is convinced, accurately so that it is all half hers. Yeah. And so I told her if she leaves, I'm going with her. It's that simple.

[Caller]

Sam. Foreign.

[Dave Ramsey]

Hey guys. Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now you can get that same kind of help anytime with ask Ramsey, ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision decision or just want something explained, ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to ramseysolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's ramseysolutions.com. Buying or selling a home is a high stakes proposition because it's usually the largest thing you own. One bad deal, oh, cost you tens of thousands of dollars, make you think that car deal was a good deal. You don't want to overpay for your next house and you don't want to sell your current home for tens of thousands less than it's worth. Instead, you need a Ramsey trusted real estate agent agent who has the experience and the volume. They do a lot of deals. They can guide you step by step. They're not a beginner. They're high octane, high protein. No expensive mistakes. Connecting is really easy. Just compare agent profiles, interview your top choices and then pick the right agent. A high octane, high protein Ramsey trusted agent who has your best interest at heart. For free. Go to Ramsey Solutions.com agent or click the link in the description. It'll put you right there. George is in Jacksonville, Florida. Hi George. How are you?

[Caller]

Better than I deserve. And things could always be worse.

[Dave Ramsey]

I hear you. What's up?

[Caller]

Well, I've had a couple bad real estate deals back to back and it's, it's put me in a bind on, on using business lines of credit and business credit cards. Not sure if I should just do bankruptcy to reset or if there's a way I can dig my way out of almost half a million dollars worth of debt.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Wow, what a mess. What do you do for a living?

[Caller]

Well, I work on cars, so I've got an automotive business and it's pretty taxing physically. So I've been trying to get more real estate going so I can get out of the car business. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

What do you make on your automotive repair business business?

[Caller]

Between my wife and I are W2 is about, about 105,000 a year.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, cool. All right. And. And you got a half a million. You said real estate. So some of that mortgages or what?

[Caller]

No, business lines of credit. And so I had one bank gave me a large line of credit to do deals with. So I use that to buy the land and improve it. And then 0% interest credit cards, which many of them are about to be out of their 0% interest term. And the first deal, everything just went wrong. And then the second deal got held up because the first deal didn't close because everything went wrong. So just got crushed by holding costs.

[Dave Ramsey]

So do you still own the land?

[Caller]

I own one of the Two, it's for sale, but the market here is taking a big dip. So the. It's dropped about $30,000 in value and still doesn't have a buyer.

[Dave Ramsey]

What is it worth?

[Caller]

Before the market dropped, it was worth it worth today.

[Dave Ramsey]

What do you got on the market for?

[Caller]

It's on the market right now for 115,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

How did you spend a half million dollars getting $115,000 piece of land?

[Caller]

Well, the first deal lost about $60,000 because of delays and market drop. And then using business lines of credit to support just getting by while trying to get that deal going, the automotive business fell behind. So that business has debt. Had another business that the manager scammed us. So we're. That lost about $30,000 getting scammed on that one.

[Dave Ramsey]

So that's still nowhere near a half a million dollars.

[Caller]

Yeah. Well, the.

[Dave Ramsey]

You lost 60 on one. You got scammed for 30. That's 90.

[Caller]

Yep. And had to take a.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you have $130,000 piece of property that I assume you paid for out of this half million, right?

[Caller]

Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

So that gets me to $220,000. I'm still $300,000 off. I can't find it.

[Caller]

Yep. Well, one of it's a car that's my wife's car. It's about 58,000 for that. But that's obviously something that if we needed to, we could dump that, get another car. But had to take a personal loan just because I had cards from before that had piled up. And then there's a high interest line of credit that I had that when some bad stock market trades.

[Dave Ramsey]

What did you buy?

[Caller]

Well, there's about $50,000 loss in the stock market. There was the money lost on the home.

[Dave Ramsey]

How did you lose $50,000 in the stock market?

[Caller]

Bad advice. Borrowing money to trade with and.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, day trading.

[Caller]

It's gone. Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

Of course you lost money.

[Caller]

Okay. Yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right.

[Caller]

Wow.

[Dave Ramsey]

So if you sold the land for 130 and you sold your wife's car for 60, that's 190. And that leaves you 320 in debt and there's nothing else left except your business and your home. Right.

[Caller]

Well, we don't even own the home.

[Dave Ramsey]

So we.

[Caller]

We rent where we live.

[Dave Ramsey]

Be on the land that the business is sitting on.

[Caller]

No, we rent there as well.

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. And then the balance. If we. If we paid off the land and sold it and we sold the car, the balance of the debt is credit cards and personal loans. Right.

[Caller]

Credit cards. 78,000 on a personal loan and then business.

[Dave Ramsey]

But like a bank. A personal loan at the bank.

[Caller]

Right. Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. Well, I think what can happen here is that you clear off what you can clear off by selling things and then you negotiate the rest of it in default at pennies on the dollar. You probably could get out of this whole thing for, you know, after you sold off everything for another hundred K out of pocket. So you probably can make it out without bankrupting if you want to fight all the way through it. However, I do want to establish that day trading sucks and you suck at it and that buying real estate you're not very good at.

[Caller]

Well, they were mobile homes, so that's. I know what your take is on mobile homes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Pretty much. Sure. Now that you're not good at it. Yeah.

[Caller]

Well, these are the first two that had really gone wrong. So everything else was going well, and mobile homes were hot items in the area and barely spending any time on.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you're the guy that hit at the slot machine and you thought that made slot machines a good idea. Yeah. So one of the things I did when I went broke, George, was I had to sit down and go, what was broken inside of me that allowed me to make bad decisions? Because I want to come out of this, at least with which wisdom, if you're going to get the crap kicked out of you, you ought to know why. So you don't go in that bar again. I don't go in there again. I don't want to get kicked again. And doesn't sound like you've learned that.

[Dr. John Deloney]

No. You're still defending.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Mobile homes were hot. Said no one ever. You know, I mean, really. And day trading. And it just. I just caught a bad night. No day trading. 97% of the day traders lose money. That's all of them. And while you're saying it's fool's gold,

[Dr. John Deloney]

while you're hemorrhaging money, you go, otherwise,

[Dave Ramsey]

buy a car for 60 grand that you can't afford. Yeah. So you need to do an autopsy on the behaviors and the beliefs that got you here so you don't repeat this and then claw your way through it if you can. If not, you might be bankrupt. I don't know. In Florida, it is one of two states that you keep your home. You don't have one. Regardless of how much equity there is. I don't know what they'll do to your business in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy. If you file bankruptcy, I'm not sure what they'll do with a Valuation on something like that, you might lose that in a bankruptcy. Bankruptcy, it's possible. Or a bunch of your equipment or tools or whatever that they actually could liquidate that place on you. So you need to be very, very careful about thinking bankruptcy is just going to be an easy way to walk out of this. I don't think it's going to be easy. I think it'll be really, really messy. So I would avoid it. So I would sell the land. I would do a detailed autopsy on who I am and why I make the decisions I made so that I don't repeat it. That's what I had to do when I made all those mistakes. You do too, George. And then I would see if I can start settling these other deals in default for 25 cents on the dollar and scratch up the cash by fixing a whole lot of cars, car repair business, and work my way through this if I can.

[Rachel Cruz]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Our scripture of the day, Galatians 5. 1. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Lou Holtz said, it is not the load that breaks you down, it's the way you carry it. Ooh, that'll go. Wow. So, John, in the 70s there was a book that came out and I was a teenager. My dad was in the real estate business. He asked me to read it because he's always having me read these motivational books.

[Dr. John Deloney]

The 1870s, right?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there were dinosaurs in the backyard. But the book was called Con Manor Saint, written by a guy who was in jail. So apparently he was a con man, but he was trying to make the case that he was a saint. He had run a multi level, I mean a pyramid scheme. Not a multi level scheme, an actual pyramid scheme. An illegal. That's why he was in jail. There's a difference between multi level and pyramid. People use them interchangeably, but they're not the same. And so he ran an actual con, like a Madoff type thing. Bernie Madoff deal and went to jail. In the book, about the only thing I remember out of it was this bizarre case. He was rationalizing all this, that he had stolen all this money from these people, but he'd made a few people fortunes in the process. So that made it all okay in his mind. But the thing that stuck with me, the reason I bring it all over up, is he said that you can con anyone if they are one of two things, afraid or greedy. That it doesn't matter how smart they are, doesn't matter how dumb they are, if they're one of those two things, you can con them. And the more of one of those two things they are, the easier they are to convince. And so when I go back, and usually when I look at someone having a financial catastrophe, including me losing everything, in my 20s, having the opportunity to start over in the real estate business, I had to go, okay, what was I. Why did I get. Cause get rich Quick is a con.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Get Rich easy. Easy is a con. It's a house of cards. Always so playing the roulette wheel, sports,

[Dr. John Deloney]

gambling, losing weight quick is a con.

[Dave Ramsey]

However you're gonna do it quick, it's a con, it's a con. If it's a life change, a permanent process. Because all the data that we now have at Ramsey says that the people that build wealth do it gradually, slowly, and they're not doing it based on fear. Agreed. And so when you're trying to get rich quick with nothing down, real estate, you know, some of these guys on TikTok or whatever, or you're trying. And that's what Ida was doing. I got a bunch of real estate. I had $4 million net worth. I was making $200,000 a year, but I was deeply in debt. I had $4 million worth of real estate, million dollar net worth. And I was 26 years old, starting from nothing. But it was still a house of cards that I had built. And I was trying to do it quick, do it quick, do it quick, do it quick, do it quick. Catch it while it. That's hot Crypto, there's another one people are chasing that.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I'm ashamed to say this, but I had this, this thought during this big IPO that just went out.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I thought, I wonder if I should. I wonder if I'm going to kick myself 20 years from now for not doing this.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And I, I actually had the thought, my son's out of town right now. And I thought I might have to tell him. I didn't, I didn't put money in on this. And I, I, it could have hit. And I, and I thought, and again, I talked myself out of it. I was like, that's foolish. Right. But that even somebody does this for a living. I had the thought of, I'm scared to miss out.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's quick money.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's fear. I'm scared to miss out on this.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. It's a FOMO fear of missing out, which is fear and greed. And so if you catch yourself saying, I've got this situation I have to get away from, I'm desperate. You're setting yourself up to be conned by one of these get rich quick things that's out there, or, I've got

[Dr. John Deloney]

to get that, I've got to get it, I've got to get it.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, in George's case, he's like, okay, I don't, my body is not going to last working on these cars. And so I've got this desperation in my soul to get away from the automotive thing and I've got to go. So I went and did day trade, went and did this, went and did that. And he's just whack a moing everywhere with debt. This pops up, it pops it down. This pops up, he pops it down. And that's exactly what I did. And so I'm no better than him. I'm the same guy as him. And that's why I can, you know, I've got a PhD in dumb. I've got experience from my own stupidity. So. But the point is, folks, just the lesson that you take away from today, today's show, we'll summarize. It is, okay, if you feel yourself getting greedy and everyone does, if you feel yourself getting fearful and everyone does, you're getting ready to make a bad financial decision. Yeah. And slow your butt down.

[Dr. John Deloney]

And underneath all of that, one of the things we tell people, hey, don't ever borrow money. I can guarantee you that that last, you know, George, that last caller didn't take out this huge business load loan, this huge personal loan with the intent of, I'm going to buy this over here. I'm going to do this. Oh, we need, we need a new car over here. If you go take out a heloc, I'll just get a little bit extra just in case. And when you have it, it's so impossible to not spend it, and you end up making the problem so much bigger. So if you say, hey, you know what?

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't magnify.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I don't. I don't mess with. I don't borrow money just as a rule unless I'm buying a house. Right. Like, it keeps you from. It's like a. It's a barrier, it's a break, it's a hurdle. It keeps you from making even a bigger mess than the one you're already in.

[Dave Ramsey]

But the reason people have lost so much money on crypto is fomo. Yeah. And that's a form of greed, a form of fear. Fear of missing out. It's greed. It's like, oh, they're going to get theirs and I'm not going to get mine.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And instead of. Instead, I got really. After I went broke, I got really comfortable with being boring.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Slow and steady wins the race.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Boring wins.

[Dave Ramsey]

Tortoise beats the hare. Every time. Every time I get desperate and fearful right after that, I get stupid and I do something stupid every time I get greedy. And I think, oh, this is gonna. This is gonna be a hot knife through butter. This is gonna go. And it's just like. And it's just 100% of those things bite me in the butt. And it's just like. And the things that I. That we have made, everything that we've made on, were death by a thousand cuts. Incremental. Little tiny, little tiny, little tiny, little tiny, little tiny. And then when you add it all up, it's a lot.

[Caller]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

But none of it was sexy or impressive. And everybody wants sexy. Impressive. The greed side. Everybody wants the quick thing. I've got to get out of this. I'm desperate. And so that as soon as you say that, you're set up so all of you out there, that's the lesson you can take from Dave's stupidity and my story and even from some of the other stories that call in here is you have to be really, really careful to avoid fear and greed or greed driving your decisions around money. Because very few times do you go slow in those situations. Both those things cause you to go too far fast. Both of those things cause you to rationalize and look past all the warning signs. Bridge out. Bridge out. Bridge out. Bridge out. Not me. I can bow. Duke, jump that sucker. Right, bow. And Luke, here we go with the. With the General Jackson. That's it. But, yeah, you think you're the one, and now you just end up in the edge of the bridge Embankment stuck on there like a fly on the wall.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I. I'm sitting here thinking of the last 20 bad decisions I made. Every one of them came back to. I talked myself into a fear of something.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Or all media today is selling you. It's all coming down. So you got to do this or you got to do that or you got to do this right. And the more I consume of that, the more I'm. My eyes are open looking for things that are coming to get me, which means I'm going to look for things

[Dave Ramsey]

to buy to all the signals, the people involved are bad people. But I'm going to keep going because it's probably going to be okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, they're not. They're going to keep being bad people. So why am I Continuing Proverbs 22, the wise see danger and hide. The fool sees danger and moves forward and suffers for it. And when I see those warning signs, the only way I look past them is when I'm greedy or I'm fearful and I overlook the warning signs. I go, well, that guy, he didn't mean that. And yeah did. He's a freaking crook and you're going to go on a deal with him anyway because you just have to. No, you don't.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Can I tell you what helps me in these moments? Wise counsel a good group of friends.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That now I know I could pick up a phone and call and say, hey, I'm about to do this or I'm scared of this. And they'll say, that's dumb John. Don't do that.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's called a good friend.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's a good friend.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's dumb John. Friend. Yeah, that's.

[Caller]

I like.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I've got many.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's Tom. Dave. Dave, you have had some dumb ideas and this is at the top of the list. Yeah, I get those too. George. We'll pray for you, my friend. Oh, it's a hard thing you're going through that puts the sour the Ramsey show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace and that's to walk daily with the Prince of peace, Christ Jesus,

[Caller]

Sam.