Dr. John Deloney (2:25)

Very cool.

George Kamel (2:26)

Awesome.

Caller (2:27)

Thank you. And I'm trying. Now the last thing is my car. I owe about 17. It's worth about 20. So I'm trying to maintain a budget and stay on budget, but I want to give my kids everything, right? Everything we didn't have everything, you know, everything I'm fighting for.

Dr. John Deloney (2:48)

You have. You have. No, no, no, no, no. You have. You've given them everything. And everything is not a bunch of presents under the tree. Everything is a mom who is. Well, everything is a mom who is, like, doing the next right thing for the stability and safety of herself and for her family. You've given them everything. You just have to be able to look in the mirror and say, I'm enough. Right?

Caller (3:27)

I know. Yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (3:28)

Yeah.

Caller (3:28)

It's hard. There's so much emotion about money, and I just can't. And then it doesn't matter how hard I'm fighting. It just feels like it's never enough. The economy is so hard.

Dr. John Deloney (3:40)

Stop fighting. Stop fighting, stop fighting, stop fighting, stop fighting. You have a picture of. They're going to be happier when you have a bunch of stuff under that tree, right?

Caller (3:51)

Yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (3:51)

Yeah. And that stuff under the tree for you as a little girl was a proxy for a house that wasn't so full of chaos and so full of angst around money, around whatever. And you thought, if I could have those things under the tree, if I could have that toy. I don't have that shirt that I don't. I can't afford or my parents can't a Ford or won't buy me, then I'll be okay. Those presents are a proxy for. We have a house full of peace, which is something that every child is so, so desperate for. And you've given it to them. They have it. They have everything. They've got a regulated mom. They don't have their dad in their life.

George Kamel (4:32)

Right.

Dr. John Deloney (4:32)

Because he walked away. But when it comes to the ability to breathe in their own home, you've given them that. I'm so proud of you. I would hug you if you're here.

George Kamel (4:43)

What do you actually want to give them? Because everything is a big, vague word. The economy is a big, vague word. You're using impossible terms. So what's the budget you want to use for Christmas to buy some gifts?

Caller (4:57)

Like, last year, it was ridiculous. I think it was like $500 a kid. And then this year, I'm just really. I really want to make change and make waves, and that involves sa sacrifice. And so I've cut it down to, like $250. But it just seems.

George Kamel (5:15)

How old are the kids?

Caller (5:18)

15, 10 and 9.

Dr. John Deloney (5:20)

All right, so I want to tell you something I grew up with. Not a lot. Okay? In fact, somebody one time, a family broke into or several families broke into our house and put presents under our tree. Okay. That's the house I grew up in. When I joined this team and my financial life transformed, I did the. I went. I'm ahead of you a little bit. Okay. I went crazy when it Came to Christmas and it was my wife saying like, hey, we gotta stop, right? And so two years ago I took my son out. He's 15 now, so he was 13 at the time. And I took him out and said, hey, I have gotten out of control of Christmas. Christmas is going to look different this year. You're going to get two or three really nice things and I want you to give me a list, right? And I'll do what I can on the little knick knacky things, but it's gonna look different. And you know what my 13 year old said to me over breakfast at a Waffle house in rural Tennessee? You know what he said to me? He smiled and said, that's awesome, dad, I don't think you can. And he already knew, oh, dad's buying a bunch of stuff for him. Not for us. He already knew. He's a teenager, he was an eighth grader and he already could sense all these presents are for old man, not for us. Now he's going to take my stuff, he's going to take all the cool stuff. That's cool. But you taking your 15 year old out, I mean you're, you're all three of them out and saying, I've been scratching a claw. And I have this fantasy in my head that y' all will only like me if there's tons of presents. I've got to be a better steward of this money this year. And so I want y' all to give me one or two things that y' all really, really want. And I'm going to try to make that happen. But Christmas is going to look different this year and I'm almost going to guarantee you that they'll, they'll be like, mom, we're good, we're good, mom. And if they don't, if they're like, that's ridiculous. Well, they're 13, good grief. They're supposed to say stuff like that. You get, you get what I'm saying?

George Kamel (7:16)

And they have no concept of what things cost. And so that's another piece of the puzzle. For better and for worse. They go, well, I want a PS5 and I want, you know, a ten dollar pair of shoes. They're like, okay, well those aren't two things that go together. And so I would set a budget and that becomes how much we can spend on Christmas. And so it doesn't matter what they want, it's what you can actually afford that dictates what happens this Christmas. And thing I would encourage you to do is focus on something Experiential versus something material. I saw a great video and the mom asked her daughter, hey, what did you get for Christmas last year? The daughter blanked. She couldn't think of one thing and she said, where did we go on vacation last year? She said, lake Tahoe immediately. And so you've got to think in terms of what are they going to remember. It's probably not a thing that's going to end up in a closet or at Goodwill six months from now or two years from now. And so be thoughtful, be creative, but don't think it has to be a certain dollar amount for it to matter.

Dr. John Deloney (8:10)

And you free yourself. When you your kids out and you have this conversation with them, you're free because you're right now there's a cloud, there's a secret that you think they will only feel good if you do X, Y and Z, take them out and just paint them a picture. This year I'm going to be different and give them that opportunity. But in that, in, in, in that conversation, you're going to free yourself.

Caller (8:33)

Ah.

Dr. John Deloney (8:34)

And like George said, most kids, we're running up, yeah, we'll run up on a clock. So go have that hard conversation. Have it direct and free.

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George Kamel (10:27)

Bree is in Phoenix up next. Bree, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Caller (10:31)

Good night. Thank you for taking my call.

George Kamel (10:33)

Absolutely. What's going on?

Caller (10:36)

You know, I guess I'm looking to find out if I made a dumb house decision or if I'M house poor. I am newer to the Ramsay show and doing a budget, and I feel like I don't have enough money to do what I want, of course. But I, you know, it seems like there's just not enough money at the.

Caller (10:57)

End of the month.

George Kamel (10:59)

That's a real problem. What do you make?

Caller (11:02)

I make yearly. I make good money. I think I make 120.

George Kamel (11:07)

Yeah, that's good money where I come from.

Dr. John Deloney (11:09)

Yeah.

George Kamel (11:09)

Okay. And what's your take home pay every month?

Caller (11:12)

Yeah, take home's not as good, obviously. I put 401k money and stuff, but in my benefits and I take home, my base salary is 5,400amonth that I bring home. Okay. And my commissions range so much. That's the. That's the hard thing. I'm having a hard time doing the budget. I'm newer to the budget, but it could be anywhere from a thousand. Like this month I got $1,000. Last month I got $3,900. For six or five months, I didn't get any at all.

George Kamel (11:40)

Okay, let's pretend that's gravy on top. So what is your mortgage rate?

Caller (11:44)

What do I want to do? 2,000amonth.

George Kamel (11:48)

Okay. That's not out of control. I mean, it's a. It's a big portion of your base take home. But we're not going to factor in your 401k contributions into that. And so if you just look at your after tax income, but before other deductions like health care, 401k, the parameter we use is 25%. And so I don't think it's just a mortgage alone doing this. I think there's some other factors here, including other debt. Do you have any other consumer debt?

Caller (12:14)

Yes, yes, I have. Well, I have $300 as a HRA a month, which I think. But I have a car loan that's $500. I have about $40,000 in consumer debt, like credit cards and like a loan that I consolidated. Okay, 40,000.

George Kamel (12:37)

So let's. Let's picture this world for Bri. Let's say that you got rid of all of the consumer debt, the car loan, the credit cards, all of that, the consolidation loan. Do you think you could breathe easier, cover all your bills and have some leftover?

Caller (12:50)

You even saying that makes me feel better.

George Kamel (12:52)

Good. That's a world that's very much available to you. It's at your fingertips here. If you just utilize this great income you have and start focusing on one thing instead of seven good things, because, you know Investing for retirement is a great thing. Paying off debt is a great thing. Owning a home is a great thing. You've chosen to do it all at once, which is why you feel overwhelmed. So let's just picture you pausing your 401k contributions. What percentage of your income are you currently contributing?

Caller (13:23)

I think I lowered it to six. It was 10.

George Kamel (13:26)

Okay, well, that's $7,200 a year that could be going towards paying down that debt. You see what I just did there?

Caller (13:34)

Yep.

Caller (13:34)

Yes.

George Kamel (13:34)

We just created some margin for Bri. And remember, this is temporary. How old are you?

Caller (13:40)

I'm almost 60.

George Kamel (13:41)

Okay, so can we picture Bri on her 62nd birthday completely debt free now maxing out retirement instead of having to ratchet it down?

Caller (13:54)

Yeah, I could picture that.

George Kamel (13:55)

That's the future I'm, I'm seeing as well. And so what this looks like is taking down your 401k, cutting your spending to the bone for 18 months max is what I'm thinking. Probably less because you have a great income, especially with those bonuses. If you pretend those bonuses don't exist, and anytime it comes in, you throw it right at the debt. The smallest debt in front of you, you're going to be debt free really quickly. Agreed.

Caller (14:17)

Wow. Well, it sounds good coming from you.

George Kamel (14:21)

I'm a good salesman, I guess.

Caller (14:22)

I'm so good.

George Kamel (14:23)

It's your life. I'm just pointing. I have all the puzzle pieces in front of me and I'm going, hey, if you just move this over here, you could be debt free pretty fast. And that's the debt snowball method that's going, hey, we're not going to contribute to retirement. We're going to take our savings down to 1,000 bucks. We're going to throw everything we can at our smallest debt once it's knocked out, throw everything we can at the next smallest debt while making minimums we on the rest of the debts. And if you do it that way, I'm telling you, you will be debt free in 12 to 18 months, making what you make.

Caller (14:48)

Oh, my God. Wow. I never even thought I'd get through on the call. I'm so excited to talk to you. And that you did. You just made me feel better because. Yeah. Now I feel stupid because I, I.

George Kamel (14:58)

No, no.

Dr. John Deloney (14:59)

We've all done stupid.

George Kamel (15:00)

People don't get paid $120,000, Brie.

Caller (15:03)

I know. I'm so proud of that. You should be up to that.

George Kamel (15:06)

And I think you work too hard to feel this broke, to feel this overwhelmed.

Caller (15:10)

I do too but listen, I want.

Dr. John Deloney (15:13)

You to hear what George said. We don't care about the interest rates. We don't care about the shame you feel on one thing versus the other. We're going to take every debt you have, and in fact, I don't want you to do it on a computer. I want you to go old school and put on a yellow pad. Write down everybody you owe in the world. Parents, friends, banks, car notes, the consolidation loan, all of them. Write it down in smallest to largest. And then we're just going to attack it. This is, in your case, this is 95% psychology.

Caller (15:51)

Oh, my gosh. So I did get it that way. With the 40. The credit card or whatever it is, it's all together. That's one bill. And then the car is another. So would I. When I get these bonuses, bang which one out?

Dr. John Deloney (16:03)

The one that does whatever one is.

George Kamel (16:05)

Lowest, whatever the smallest balances. That's the only number you're looking at.

Dr. John Deloney (16:08)

The one you care about.

Caller (16:11)

Wow.

Dr. John Deloney (16:11)

And we're going to. And here's what you're going to get. You're going to get a whole bunch of little wins. And if you have one big giant chunk at the end, like, you have the big $40,000, like, cloud hanging over your head, here's what we're going to celebrate. Every time you get that first number from 40 and you get it to 39,999, that's a huge win. And then we're just going to try to get a two in front. 29,999. And we're going to whittle that sucker down. The only question you need to ask yourself is this. You're gonna be 62. Okay. Do you want to be 62? Yeah, that's fair.

Caller (16:48)

And.

Dr. John Deloney (16:49)

Oh, nobody anything. Or do you want to be 62 a little more fried than you are right now? That's the choice.

Caller (16:55)

No, I want to be free. And, yeah, I work hard for my money, and I want to celebrate myself. Never mind. You know what I mean?

Dr. John Deloney (17:02)

Celebrate yourself not with another shiny thing you can't afford. Celebrate yourself with peace and freedom, which I think are the two most elusive things in American households today.

Caller (17:14)

Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. I really do.

Dr. John Deloney (17:17)

Okay, hang on. We're gonna hook you up.

Caller (17:19)

We're gonna hook you up, and I feel we're gonna.

Dr. John Deloney (17:21)

We're gonna take care of you. Here's what we're gonna send you. Number one, we're gonna send you the digital FPU product. I want you to watch all nine videos at your house. And if you got kids still living with you, they have to watch it as a part of their rent. Okay.

Caller (17:34)

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna send them.

Dr. John Deloney (17:37)

Oh, we're not done. I'm sending you more. You ready? I'm gonna give you. George and I are gonna give you a year of every dollar premium. It's a budgeting app and it's gonna connect with your bank.

Caller (17:49)

So you already have the regular one, but. No, not that one.

Dr. John Deloney (17:53)

We're upgrading you. Okay? And we're gonna pay for it. But you gotta promise that you will cut your spinning down to where people are gonna think you're slowly losing your marbles. Okay?

Caller (18:04)

I love it. And I love a challenge.

Dr. John Deloney (18:06)

Done.

Caller (18:07)

I really do. And my youngest son is. He started it too. And he's doing so good. He's doing better than me. And I'm embarrassed. He's 21. He's 20. 22, actually. I'm so proud of him for doing it.

Dr. John Deloney (18:18)

Yes.

Caller (18:18)

So proud of him.

Dr. John Deloney (18:19)

Let him see his mom do something like radically hard for the next 18 months and then he will never. My mom went back and took her first community college class at the age of 42. And she graduated her PhD at 57. You know what that did for me? It took away every excuse I could ever have in my life, ever. Four. I'm too old. I can't change. I'm setting my way. She took it all off the table. And that's what you'll do for your son. You will show him in real time. There is never the words I can't. That cannot be a part of his vocabulary because I watched my mom do it.

Caller (18:55)

And that's all I care about, is making my kids proud. I know they are proud of me.

Dr. John Deloney (18:58)

This is changing your family tree right here in real time.

Caller (19:01)

Feel shame. Yeah. So.

George Kamel (19:02)

Well, you got a built in accountability part partner now, so. He's watching. You're watching what he's doing. He's watching what you're doing. And that's the best thing.

Dr. John Deloney (19:09)

Will you give me one more promise?

Caller (19:12)

Yes, I will.

Dr. John Deloney (19:12)

That when you pay off these debts and you're debt free, you'll call back in and we'll celebrate you. We'll do a debt free scream.

Caller (19:18)

Thank you. You bet. I. I will go right there so I can get in the booth.

George Kamel (19:22)

I love it.

Dr. John Deloney (19:23)

All right, hang on the line. We're gonna. Christian's on the line here. He's gonna hook you up with this stuff.

George Kamel (19:27)

I'm marking my calendar, Bri. 18 months from now, I'M gonna be like, hey, Brie, you debt free yet? Where you at, Bri? We got any more payments? And I think the answer is going to be, I've been debt free, dude. I've been done with this stuff. I got the emergency fund. I'm maxing out retirement. That's the future we want for Bri. And I think you're going to get there. Proud of you for calling in. Love to see that kind of transformation. And in five minutes, your whole attitude just changed. So imagine what the five months are going to look like as you actually implement this stuff. You're going to be like a live wire. Just so much energy on the path to debt freedom. Thanks for calling in.

Announcer (20:18)

I've been doing this show for over 30 years, and some of the saddest calls I have taken are from situations that are completely preventable.

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Yeah. And what's so hard is I feel like one of those, especially the ones that I'm like, ugh, it's terrible. People that call in and their spouse has passed away suddenly and they don't have life insurance. We actually took a question of a lady, and she had three kids pregnant, and husband didn't have life insurance. And I'm like, I can't even imagine. Or even if it was opposite, Right. If a mom passed away, there's a dad with kids and trying to figure out, how am I gonna afford childcare? How do I outsource some stuff that maybe she was doing? Like. And it just takes the grief and the sadness of something like a sudden death to a whole new level. Like, when you have to think through, how am I going to pay my bills?

Announcer (21:07)

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Dr. John Deloney (21:08)

Yeah.

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George Kamel (22:24)

Nick is in Charlotte, North Carolina. Up next. What's going on, Nick? How can we help today?

Caller (22:29)

Hey, good afternoon. Thanks for having me on.

George Kamel (22:31)

Absolutely.

Caller (22:32)

Hey, so there's a lot of backstory, but. Married 13 years, have three children. Seven, four and one. My wife and I, we've been through a lot with medical ordeals. It's led to. I took on finances and.

Caller (22:52)

Ended up.

Caller (22:52)

Kind of drowning a bit. I did not disclose to her that we were in financial trouble and thought I could work my way out of it. I'm in sales. My net monthly income is roughly $7,500. We are currently in about $100,000 of debt, consumer debt that consists of two personal loans, two auto loans, and a student loan. I've been hemorrhaging somewhere between five to $7,000 a month because I've not been able to have an honest conversation with my wife to disclose what's going on. So we haven' our spending patterns. On Friday of last week, God broke me and I surrendered it to him. I disclosed everything to her and finally was open and honest. She was incredibly gracious. But now, as we are trying to restore, rebuild, and rejuvenate our relationship, which has been an incredible couple of days, we do find ourselves in a crisis. We met with a Christian financial advisor last night who recommended a home equity line of credit to swap the $100,000 in consumer debt to the home equity line of credit. We owe 330 on our house. It's worth about 530. So to keep that 80%, that would get us to roughly the 100,000 to pay off the consumer, and then we are flipping our spending upside down. We believe in the baby step approach. We're going to be pursuing that aggressively. But we wanted to know our options. Is the only option to do this heloc potentially sell our house when the market is better in this, you know, summer, spring and have that paid off and be debt free and rent a home? Do we need to put the house for sale immediately and take that route, or are there other strategies that you all would implement and recommend given the Context of what, what I just outlined.

Dr. John Deloney (24:57)

All right, so George, George is going to walk you through the money side of this and he's going to give you a super clear path. Okay? But I want you to hear me crystal clear also. Okay?

Caller (25:07)

Okay.

Dr. John Deloney (25:08)

The chief emergency in your life is not the debt.

Caller (25:14)

Yes.

Dr. John Deloney (25:15)

The chief emergency in your life is what, what I would call financial infidelity. You cheated on your wife. Okay. And so the chief emergency in your, in your, in your life right now is restoring trust.

Caller (25:29)

Yes.

Dr. John Deloney (25:29)

It's not. And here there's, I'm going to parse it. It's not trying to make everything all okay and take away any more pain, frustration, fear in her right away. It is restoring trust.

Caller (25:45)

Absolutely.

Dr. John Deloney (25:46)

And when we, when men of character like me, like you, find ourselves, we have become somebody we never meant to be. I've been down this road in my marriage too. Okay? The temptation is to run around and spend a whole bunch of energy trying to make everybody feel okay right now. And that gets us right back into yet another problem or two problems. Usually we make it worse. And so the path you need to take now is, yes, you'll have to deal with this debt emergency. It's a big, big deal. But more importantly is you have to bring your wife as a part of this brokenness. And the submission that you, that you mentioned it is asking your wife, what does a path back to trust look like? And not you now running around and almost shutting her to the side or bringing her along, but more dragging her along and saying, I, I'm going to fix this, I'm going to go do this, I'm going to do this, I'm going to go to this, or we're going to meet with this guy, I'm going to talk. It's saying, what do you need to begin to feel safe and trust me again? Okay? That is step number one. That's the big neon sign flashing, emergency in your life right now is restoration of trust. And then it's probably going to be something along the lines of, I want to have a budget meeting with you. I want to know where all our accounts are. Here's where our retirement is. Here's the account numbers, here's how to access it, here's my cell phone. All those kind of things that reestablish trust at the step by step, I'll call it micro level. That rebuilds a foundation that both of you can anchor into to go do what's going to be a couple of years of really hard work. Okay? Does that make sense? What I'm saying.

Caller (27:26)

It does.

Dr. John Deloney (27:27)

Okay, so you saying I've had. I've hid this from you. And actually I tried to do a noble thing, which is protect you, keep you safe, not worry you. And in so doing, I created a big, big mess. And so here it is. It's on the table. You've done that. I would hug you if you were here. Most men don't have the courage to do that. What you did was brave and good and right. And now it is. Realizing that the healing process is going to be slower than you want it to be. And on the back end of this, your marriage will be so much stronger than you could have ever possibly imagined it. And you will be a man of character, not only in your words, but in. In the actions. And she will be able to anchor fully back into you and you. And vice versa. Get what I'm saying? I do.

Caller (28:10)

We are already seeing that already. The just brokenness between the two of us, which has been.

Dr. John Deloney (28:14)

That's right.

Caller (28:15)

Which has been beautiful. So I appreciate you saying that and I agree with you.

Dr. John Deloney (28:18)

Hey, part of this is. And this is unpopular to say, you addressing what might also be an elephant in the room, which is maybe she wasn't the safest person to sit down and talk about finances with. Maybe y' all were creating a dance where she didn't want to hear it or she wants to buy when she wants to buy. And then so you're trying to solve it and you're trying to fix it and you're coming up with the scheme over here and doing it. Who knows what the. What the dance in your marriage is, but this allows that to all get put on the table over time.

Caller (28:48)

Sure.

George Kamel (28:48)

Okay.

Dr. John Deloney (28:49)

Unless you're just a terrible, terrible human, which I'm not hearing at all. These things don't happen in a vacuum. They're co created by two people in a marriage and that's all that has to be put on the table. And if you just run out tomorrow and sell your house, you might band aid over the math problem y' all have in front of you. But the problems in your marriage about trust and safety. And do. Do we both relax when we both see each other when we come home? That doesn't. That just gets wallpapered over and it will show up somewhere else down the road. It more magnify. Right. Okay. So George is going to walk you through this stuff.

George Kamel (29:20)

My burning commentary is on this Christian financial advisor.

Dr. John Deloney (29:24)

Yeah. Never talk to that person again. Ever. Ever.

George Kamel (29:26)

Listen, God loves all of his children. They're made perfect in. In his image. And some of their cornbread's not done in the middle. And so what he has suggested of you dumping dirty water into another vessel doesn't actually solve the problem. Would you agree?

Caller (29:43)

I don't love it. I'm just.

George Kamel (29:45)

What do you love about it? Because you're just moving the debt around and putting your home at double risk.

Dr. John Deloney (29:51)

Yeah. You now took the only safe place you and your wife have left and you've leveraged that and you made it.

George Kamel (29:56)

Into one giant pile that's even harder to pay off with a variable interest rate.

Dr. John Deloney (30:02)

Yeah.

Caller (30:02)

So being underwater, five to seven thousand dollars a month.

George Kamel (30:07)

And.

Dr. John Deloney (30:07)

Yeah.

George Kamel (30:07)

Explain what do you mean by your hemorrhaging. $7,000 a month. What does that mean?

Caller (30:11)

Well, a lot of that has to do with spending habits. So if we.

George Kamel (30:14)

Which has nothing to do with the debt. And so that's what I'm trying to get at is are you investing a dime right now?

Caller (30:21)

401K out of my paycheck.

George Kamel (30:23)

And he didn't advise you to stop investing to get rid of the mess?

Caller (30:25)

He did.

Caller (30:26)

He did. Yeah.

Caller (30:28)

He did stop. He did recommend stopping.

George Kamel (30:30)

Okay, so if you paused all investing, you guys lived on nothing.

Announcer (30:33)

Can you.

George Kamel (30:33)

What's your mortgage payment?

Caller (30:36)

$2,082 a month.

George Kamel (30:38)

Okay. That's not the problem here. You can keep the house. What you need to do is use this income, pause your 401k investments, make sure you're not getting a refund on your taxes. You need that money back in your paycheck. Can you live off of $3,400 a month? I'm just going to show you the math if you were able to do that.

Caller (30:59)

So if you've got math and please show me.

George Kamel (31:01)

Here's the math. You make 90,000 net. Right. If you stop investing, you're going to have even more. Probably closer to one. If you put 50 of that towards your debt, you're debt free in two years. Ta da. See the napkin math there? Which leaves 40 or 50 to live off of. Now, I don't know if that's reasonable. To have your mortgage, your four walls covered, insurance and minimum debt payments on.

Dr. John Deloney (31:21)

That side, but be unreasonable for 24 months.

George Kamel (31:24)

Yeah. I think this is. This could all be solved by you guys living like you're broke. Because, newsflash, you're broke. So it's an easy problem to solve. When you make $100,000 net, you can knock this out in two years without taking on more debt just by doing that debt snowball. Method. If you say you believe in the baby steps approach, try it. Try it for a year. If you don't make progress and you want to go take out more debt, then you can be my guest. But I'm telling you, man, you can be debt free in under two years if you follow this stuff and your marriage is going to be better for it. We believe in you.

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Caller (33:31)

Hi, guys. Thanks so much for taking my call.

George Kamel (33:33)

Sure.

Caller (33:34)

I just have a question that I think is pretty simple. My husband and I have paid off all of our debts except where we have his student loan. It's the Last one. It's $63,000 and it's in income driven repayment with a current monthly, you know, payment of zero. And we're thinking we'd like to refinance it to kind of force ourselves to have to pay it. I know that's like a weird mind, like Jedi mind trick that we want to do, but we're wondering if we're crazy if we should just pay through the student loan lender, which two of the loans. It's one loan, but there's four small ones. Two are 10,000, two are 20,000. A couple of them have 5.2% interest and a couple have six. And with refinancing or a personal loan to pay them, the interest would be higher.

George Kamel (34:28)

So what good would refinancing do at.

Caller (34:30)

This point, it would. I feel like it's just kind of. The loan just kind of hangs out there. And, and we have two goals. One is to be debt free. The other is to buy a home. Currently, we know that because it's. We've been told, you know, through our mortgage pre approval that the student loan isn't affecting our pre approval because it's a minimum payment of zero. So we're kind of at this point where we know we need to buy a home eventually, but we also want to force ourselves to not just let this loan be sitting in the background just because even though it's accumulating interest, the payment zero. So we have a trusted Ramsey pro who kind of said because of our ages, it doesn't, you know, it would be okay to kind of be saving for a down payment and paying off this debt. How much do you guys make total? About 120 to 128 a year.

George Kamel (35:28)

Okay, so this debt could be gone in a year if you just hunkered down.

Caller (35:33)

Yeah, we have about 5,000 extra a month we could be putting on this debt.

George Kamel (35:37)

So the math I just laid out is perfectly there. 5,000amonth for 12 months. 60 grand.

Caller (35:43)

Yeah.

George Kamel (35:43)

So the loan is done in 12 months, and that's without you guys. I mean, you could probably even scratch up a little more money, spend a little less and make it happen faster, couldn't you?

Caller (35:51)

For sure. Yep.

George Kamel (35:53)

That's the plan, is to move through it myself. Why don't you trust yourself?

Caller (36:00)

Well, this loan is kind of not interfering with us, but it is.

George Kamel (36:04)

You're calling a national radio show to talk about this loan. I would say it's very much living in your head, rent free.

Caller (36:10)

Oh, it's totally living in my head. But we're also worried. What if the right house comes up and then.

George Kamel (36:17)

Listen, you guys jumped the gun trying to home shop with $63,000 of loans sitting on the other side. That loan isn't going away. In fact, the interest is just adding to it and that loan isn't going away. So it's. It would light an extra fire under me to start making payments. Not, you know, $0, not $100, but $5,000 a month payments on this to knock it out in the next 12 months.

Caller (36:38)

We definitely have that fire. I'm just worried, what if something. What if something happens and I don't have that fire. 6.

George Kamel (36:46)

It's not a soulmate, it's a house. There's going to be more of them a year from now.

Caller (36:51)

I don't mean the house, I mean the payment on the loan.

Dr. John Deloney (36:53)

Okay, okay, let me.

Caller (36:54)

Now we have the fire.

Dr. John Deloney (36:55)

Let me, let me say it this way. If you wait for motivation to do anything, if you wait for a quote unquote, fire, whatever you're aiming for, you'll never, you'll never get all the way there.

Caller (37:07)

I agree with you, John. That's what, that's kind of what I'm asking. If we refinance this to our business credit union.

Dr. John Deloney (37:13)

No.

Caller (37:13)

Now that loan is sitting in our bank and we have to look at it every day.

George Kamel (37:17)

And I think, so you're trying to make it more difficult, to make you more scared of it, to make you pay it.

Caller (37:23)

That's exactly what I'm trying to say.

Dr. John Deloney (37:24)

That is untrustworthy person.

George Kamel (37:27)

You sound trustworthy. I trust Kristen.

Caller (37:30)

I've been doing this show for 20 years and I have been in and out of debt many times and we're finally on the right track.

George Kamel (37:38)

You've been in and out to where you don't even trust yourself to pay off this debt because you go, well, Kristen's not the kind of person who just pays off debt and stays out of debt. So here's the thing. It's gonna be a trust exercise.

Dr. John Deloney (37:49)

You need 12 months. You need this.

George Kamel (37:53)

How much do you guys have saved right now?

Caller (37:57)

Not a lot. We only have about 5,000 saved.

George Kamel (37:59)

Okay, and how old are you two?

Caller (38:02)

I'm 41, he's 53.

George Kamel (38:05)

Okay, picture like 10 year old Kristen, if you said, hey, one day you're going to be making $120,000 and then your 10 year old self's going to say, how much money do you have? And you're going to say $5,000. Don't you think that's wild that you.

Dr. John Deloney (38:19)

Guys worked this hard and 60 grand.

George Kamel (38:21)

Making six figures and you have nothing to show for it.

Caller (38:25)

Well, we had a lot of debt up until recently. We finally just got here is what I'm saying. I know I must graze.

Dr. John Deloney (38:31)

Why did you say you're like at mile 22 of the MAR and suddenly you're like, I don't think I can make it. Just look behind you, look how far you've come. You for sure can make it. It sounds like, you know what? It sounds like you're tired.

George Kamel (38:46)

Here, here's the math of it. You have four loans. I love that they're split up. Please do not refinance into one private, more expensive loan. Because right now, in two months that loan is knocked out.

Dr. John Deloney (38:56)

Tada.

George Kamel (38:57)

You freed up A three left, two more months. You knocked out the next smallest. That's another payment freed up that you can add to the next one. Do you see? That's going to cause you to trust yourself again when you see that kind of progress and momentum?

Caller (39:11)

I don't know. I guess so, yes.

Dr. John Deloney (39:13)

Listen, somewhere big and bold in your home, Christmas of 2026, you all are going to go somewhere awesome because you're not going to owe anybody any money.

George Kamel (39:24)

And the home is just going to be on a temporary delay. It's not going to happen in 12 months. So you know what? Don't even look. Don't even doom. Scroll Zillow to see what could have been, because it's.

Dr. John Deloney (39:36)

You know what? Because right now, Zillow is pornography for you. It is a way to escape that feeling inside that I'm exhausted, I'm not where I should be, and I got a hard. A hard conversation. I have a hard path ahead of me. I'm just going to off ramp it here. Pinterest is pornography right now. Zillow is pornography right now. Talking to a, a real estate agent is an emotional affair right now. Just don't, just don't concentrate on the one single goal you have, which is we're going to get to zero.

George Kamel (40:12)

And.

Dr. John Deloney (40:12)

We'Ll have done it. You get what I'm saying? You've done so good.

Caller (40:16)

Yeah, I know that. I knew this question sounded crazy.

Dr. John Deloney (40:20)

No, it doesn't sound crazy. It just sounds. It sounds like you're tired and you're just like, hey, should I just. Should I just take some performance enhancing drugs for the last four miles and the answer is no.

Caller (40:32)

I think it's just that we've done so much better under pressure and we. I work better under pressure and we paid off our debt better under pressure.

Dr. John Deloney (40:40)

Let me give you some pressure. Without 24 months ago, would you have bet anything politically that has happened would have happened?

Caller (40:50)

No.

Dr. John Deloney (40:51)

No. Okay. So in 24 months from now, good God Almighty, who knows whether there's going to be no such thing as deferment anymore? I'm just making stuff up. Whether they're going to demand all of the interest in a lump sum payment or put you in jail, I don't know. And you don't know.

Caller (41:11)

Right.

Dr. John Deloney (41:11)

There is a ton of pressure on you right now.

Caller (41:16)

Okay?

George Kamel (41:17)

And if you want pressure, imagine there's a $5,000 minimum payment due on these loans. Or just switch out of IDR completely to a standard repayment payment plan. If you're begging for a normal payment, they'll give you one.

Caller (41:32)

We don't mean that, do you?

George Kamel (41:33)

Yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (41:34)

Well, you're calling us, asking, you said.

George Kamel (41:37)

I don't feel the pressure because it's $0. Okay, well, you can switch to a standard repayment plan where it's 400, $500.

Caller (41:43)

Okay.

George Kamel (41:43)

But I'm telling you, you can just imagine there's a five thousand dollar minimum payment or else someone's gonna come knocking on your door. If you need that manufactured pressure in order to do this plan, I don't.

Dr. John Deloney (41:53)

Think you need to it. I don't. I just think you're tired. I think you want a house.

Caller (42:01)

Yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (42:01)

And I think you're so close to the finish line here on this, on this part of your trip and I.

George Kamel (42:05)

Think you're frustrated and you have some shame and guilt because of the past decisions that have led you to have this delay dream of home ownership. And that's a very normal thing. That's not crazy. That's normal in America today. For better and worse, it's normal. And so I would put the shame and guilt down and go, we make amazing money. We're going to put it to good use. We're going to be out of this thing a year from now and we're going to have the rest of our lives debt free and we're going to be homeowners one day.

Dr. John Deloney (42:29)

The Christmas present y' all buy each other this year is to get rid of that first student loan.

George Kamel (42:34)

Love that.

Dr. John Deloney (42:35)

That's a great present for both of you.

George Kamel (42:37)

Make a little card if you want to add some panache to.

Dr. John Deloney (42:59)

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. This time of year can be tough, so make sure you check in on your friends, check in on your loved ones, and reconnect with people you haven't talked to in a while. I recently called one of my childhood friends. We had a great conversation. It was awesome. The conversation was hard, but we also laughed a little bit, too. It can take a little courage to just send that message or go grab coffee or even get in the car and drive across the country to reach out with a friend. Friend. And reaching out for a therapist can also feel hard. But often it's worth it. And if you're thinking about therapy, I recommend calling my friends at Better Help. BetterHelp has over 30,000 therapists. They're the largest online therapy provider in the world and they've served over 5 million people globally. And they have an average rating of 4.9 stars out of 5. It's totally online and it's easy to fit into your schedule to get started, just answer a few simple questions and BetterHelp will connect you with a licensed therapist. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time for no extra cost. This month, don't wait to reach out. Visit betterhelp.com Ramsey to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com Ramsey.

George Kamel (44:26)

Welcome back to the Ramsey show and the Fairwinds Credit Union Union studio. I'm George Camel joined by best selling author Dr. John DeLoney. Open phones at 888. 825. 5225. Sarah is in Columbia, South Carolina. Up next, what's going on? Sarah?

Caller (44:42)

Hi. My question is that I am in the process of trying to leave an abusive marriage but I have a lot of debt and I'm trying to figure out what I need to prioritize as far as my money in order to make a safe exit. It.

Dr. John Deloney (45:00)

Do y' all have a bunch of debt or do you have debt?

Caller (45:05)

Both.

Dr. John Deloney (45:06)

Okay.

Caller (45:07)

We do.

Dr. John Deloney (45:08)

I think right now your chief, the most important thing for you is to get to a safe place.

Caller (45:15)

Yeah, I physically, I feel physically safe. But do you work just a lot? I do.

Dr. John Deloney (45:23)

Okay. Then I would create your own checking account to have your check deposit into it deposited into it for the time being. And we're going to go into store mode because you're going to need cash.

Caller (45:35)

Right.

Dr. John Deloney (45:36)

And you're going to take care of your four walls.

George Kamel (45:38)

So that means making minimum debt payments on anything that's yours. Is, is everything co signed for? Are you both on each debt?

Caller (45:46)

So we are. Let's see, the car is mine. I have a student loan and the rest of it is like, like credit cards and personal loans and that's kind of both.

Dr. John Deloney (46:00)

Well, and even if you, if y' all or if, if, if he quote unquote bought a car and both of yalls income went into a pot and y' all paid that car off, he may have some that he owes you to help pay off your car. All that said that's for the lawyers to figure out because the debts are going to get parsed out. The what y', all the, the assets you'll have are gonna get parsed out. That's just, that's the fight. Does your spouse know you're about to file?

Caller (46:33)

So we've had a big discussion and it isn't really going over well but he's aware and I do have a lawyer and thank goodness I have a family member that has paid my retainer for that. But, yeah, he's aware.

Dr. John Deloney (46:54)

Yeah. Let's let the attorneys work for you.

Caller (46:59)

Okay.

Dr. John Deloney (47:00)

If y' all were able to have a big conversation, which almost never happens when there's an abusive spouse, where everybody goes, you're right. Here's my piece. Here's your piece. Let's shake hands and go down to the courthouse for 300 and file the paperwork on her own and be adults. But y' all wouldn't. You wouldn't be in the situation if you weren't in an abusive, unsafe situation. So wanting that to happen. It's not going to happen. Dave gave me a quote one time that I loved. The moment somebody files divorce. It is now a. It's now a business transaction, and that's how we're going to treat it. And we're going to let the people who are trained to do business transactions, which is the attorneys, do that stuff.

Caller (47:40)

Yeah, yeah. And I've tried that. I've tried to be as, you know, strong as possible and, you know, not engage. Not engage. Not engage. Yeah. And he just. He's very emotional about it.

Dr. John Deloney (47:54)

That's right. Let your husband say all the wild stuff. Everything. All. Keep every text message, keep all the emails. I'm going to take you for everything. You're going to all that stuff. Fine. Your goal now is to take care of you. Do you have groceries? Do you have a place to stay? Are you able to make your minimum payments? And we're going to go from there.

Caller (48:14)

Okay.

George Kamel (48:14)

What do you make?

Caller (48:17)

So I make. I just started a new job. I make around 120, which is a great income.

George Kamel (48:22)

Amazing. And the debts that are tied to your name, either joint or solo, what does that add up to?

Caller (48:29)

About almost 70.

George Kamel (48:33)

Okay. What's the car worth that's in your name?

Caller (48:37)

I'm not sure what it's worth. It has 15 left on the loan. Okay. Okay.

George Kamel (48:42)

I'm just wondering if you get to a tight spot and you could sell that and downgrade or borrow a car from a family member. For now, that might be a good move to get you to some better financial footing. But I love the idea of you going today, creating your own checking and savings account, not connected to the bank that you're currently with, with your husband, and starting basically your new financial life right now to protect yourself and allowing that direct deposit to go there. And like John said, just stack up cash, make minimum payments on the debt. Don't get behind on it. Don't let it go to collections. But then once the divorce settles, you'll know as the dust clear which debts you're going to be owing on what you could do. And you'll have a pile of cash to help you get that kick started.

Caller (49:20)

Okay.

Dr. John Deloney (49:21)

What do you do for a living?

Caller (49:24)

I'm a nurse practitioner.

Dr. John Deloney (49:26)

I was just thinking nurse. So his attorney, if he or she is worth their salt, is going to make a claim that he put you through nursing school and so that you get. He should get a part of that cell, all that stuff. Like it's not going to come out clean. It's going to be a mess.

Caller (49:41)

Mess, right.

Dr. John Deloney (49:42)

Divorce is a mess. But we're trying to get from here to there. And from here to there is don't make any wild purchases. Don't over stress with when he starts, like, try your best to retain your emotional sanity as he throws whatever grenade he's gonna throw.

George Kamel (49:59)

So sorry you're going through this.

Dr. John Deloney (50:00)

Yeah, I hate it for you.

George Kamel (50:02)

All right, let's go out to Rachel up next in Atlanta. What's going on, Rachel?

Caller (50:06)

Hey, guys, thanks for taking my call.

George Kamel (50:08)

Sure, sure. What's your question?

Caller (50:10)

Okay, so my parents are aging and they have Alzheimer's and dementia. And so we are beginning to look at like long term care facilities, assisted living, that kind of thing. And we know that we're going to need to liquidate their assets in order to pay for this. Right. And you know, we have their house, they have some annuities, my mom has some stock in AT&T. And so what I really need advice on is what kind of professional would I need to seek out to help me combine all these tiny little accounts into one big account that would be liquid enough to pay for a facility.

George Kamel (50:48)

So you're trying to piece these puzzle pieces together to go, okay, we have all these random things out here. How do we basically sell off any assets and create a cash account in like a high yield savings or money market that we can use to fund the rest of their care?

Caller (51:04)

Right?

George Kamel (51:04)

Yeah. Well, the, the issue that I would see is you're going to need financial power of attorney to make any financial decisions on their behalf.

Caller (51:12)

Right.

George Kamel (51:13)

And so that would depend on.

Caller (51:14)

We pretty much have that. We set up a living trust.

George Kamel (51:17)

Okay.

Caller (51:18)

And I am one of the trustees. But the way they worded the power of attorney, basically each of my parents would have to, quote, resign as a trustee in order for me to be able to completely take over. I am working on getting them to do that, but it is a slow process because there is a lot of pride and a lot of denial.

Dr. John Deloney (51:37)

Well, do they have clinical diagnostics around their dementia?

Caller (51:42)

Yes.

Dr. John Deloney (51:42)

Okay. Then that in and of itself may preclude them from being able to sign off.

George Kamel (51:49)

That's my fear. If, if they don't have the capacity mentally where they go. Yeah, they can sign off on this. They know exactly what they're doing. Doing. The courts won't sign off on it.

Dr. John Deloney (51:58)

But if you have medical power of attorney, then that's when you step in to make decisions for somebody who is unable to make decisions for themselves.

Caller (52:06)

Okay.

Dr. John Deloney (52:07)

And it's a nightmare because you're.

Caller (52:11)

Yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (52:12)

You're going to find yourself trying to do the best you can to love and honor your parents. Well. And in their diminishing cognitive capacity, you're going to become the biggest, biggest target, the biggest enemy to them.

Caller (52:25)

Yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (52:26)

And you just.

Caller (52:26)

I hope you're wrong in that, but.

Dr. John Deloney (52:27)

I know, I know I've just sat with too many people whose parents have dementia and they feel like they're getting hit on one side by insurance companies and care facilities and on the other side getting hit by the person they love the most, who is a scared, terrified parent watching their ability to function slip through their own fingers. And it just is the. It's the worst. It's a nightmare. So it's just getting yourself. If you're married, you've got brothers and sisters, you all stealing yourself for the coming storm. But yeah, if they already have been diagnosed with dementia or Alzheimer's, then I don't think they can even sign off on anything moving forward.

George Kamel (53:15)

Hey guys. George here. You know, I hate debt and that includes sleep debt. I've been there. Fatigue, low energy, brain fog. And that's why I switched to Casper. My Casper mattress helps me sleep easier, cooler and deeper. And now every bedroom in my house has one. On top of that, Casper ships free. Comes with a hundred night trial. And if you don't love it, they'll come pick it up. So let's ditch the sleep debt and build sleep wealth. Go to Casper.com Ramsey and use promo code Ramsey for 30% off all mattresses and up to 35% off everything else. That's Casper.com Ramsey promo code Ramsey exclusions apply. All right, John, we're going to play a little game. Where are they now? We often take calls and then we just. That's it. We'll never talk to them again.

Dr. John Deloney (54:15)

Okay. I thought you were talking about like one of your ex girlfriends from middle school or something.

George Kamel (54:19)

She lives here now. No, that would be Hilarious and awful at the same time. No, this is a call from Skyler that you and I took back in February of 2025 this year. And she had made some mistakes in college, moved in with her parents as a single mom. Her parents then wanted her to pay to put a mother in law suite on the back of their property. She was in baby step two, trying to pay off.

Dr. John Deloney (54:38)

I do remember this call now.

George Kamel (54:40)

Yeah. So she wanted to communicate to her parents that she didn't want to go into more debt. She got an apartment, was scared to tell them they were using her to get ahead financially. We told her, hey, you gotta move out. And she couldn't afford the apartment on her own without her parents helping. So it was a very. Just toxic, codependent situation. She was working long hours, delivering mail. She was scared. And we told her, hey, lean into the hard conversations, into the conflict. This is not forever. This is a season. We gave her some resources. And then something magical happened. She reached back out and said, hey, I want to update you guys on where I'm at now.

Dr. John Deloney (55:12)

I hope she doesn't call and be like, you ruined my life.

George Kamel (55:15)

That's always my fear. I'm hoping. We've got good news from Skylar. How you been, Skyler?

Caller (55:20)

I've been great. How are you guys doing?

Dr. John Deloney (55:22)

Good.

George Kamel (55:22)

Good. That's a relief to hear. Okay, so what is the update? Did you end up moving out?

Caller (55:29)

I did. So I had the conversation with my parents and I pretty much told him. I was like, I can't afford to put a mother in law suite on the back of the property. They pretty much were like, they were just trying to think of a way to help me have my own living space and pretty much be independent while also being close enough to help me with my son. And what the conversation boiled down to. But I found a cheaper apartment, was able to move out. Good. And I'm actually teaching now.

Dr. John Deloney (55:58)

Wow. Full time gig, huh?

Caller (56:00)

Oh, yeah.

George Kamel (56:01)

Making more money?

Caller (56:04)

About the same.

George Kamel (56:04)

Okay. And how's single mom life going? What's going on with the kiddo?

Caller (56:10)

It's better. I am he. I'm able to get him in the elementary school near the high school I work at. And so I could drop him off in the morning. I get to pick him up after school. I get to spend weekends with him, which before when I was working with the post office, I got lucky to see him maybe an hour or two before he went to bed.

George Kamel (56:28)

Wow.

Caller (56:28)

And I didn't see him in the morning.

Dr. John Deloney (56:29)

You got your whole life back.

George Kamel (56:31)

It's Amazing.

Caller (56:32)

Yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (56:32)

All right.

Caller (56:33)

A boyfriend. So it works out.

George Kamel (56:35)

A boyfriend. Enter the picture. Gross.

Dr. John Deloney (56:38)

All right, good for you. Good for you. All right, so I am of the belief that most of the time, not always, but most of the time, when aging parents come up with a plan or a scheme that actually, deep down, they're trying to help and they open up their toolkit and there's just one or two tools in there. And so take me back to that conversation you had with your parents. Did it ruin your relationship with them? Or when they explained themselves, did you realize, oh, y' all are trying. They're actually trying to help in the way they know how. And maybe their generation was just borrow money or just whatever. Tell me about that relation, that conversation, and then tell me about your relationship with your parents now.

Caller (57:24)

Yeah, that's pretty much how the conversation was. They were trying to help me be independent and be on my own, but still provide the support I needed with working at the post office.

Dr. John Deloney (57:34)

Okay.

Caller (57:37)

And it was. Ended up being productive conversation.

Dr. John Deloney (57:39)

Y' all still talk? Y' all still close?

Caller (57:42)

Oh, yeah. My son goes over there on the weekends still because he wants to visit his Grammy and papa.

Dr. John Deloney (57:47)

Oh, cool.

Caller (57:48)

Love that the atmosphere has completely changed. Where before when I was living there with them, things were tense all the time. And now that we all have our own space, it's way more relaxed, and there is no tense. Oh, yeah.

George Kamel (58:01)

We threw a bunch of resources at you at the last call. Financial Peace University. Every dollar. What's the financial progress been like?

Caller (58:11)

It's still steady.

George Kamel (58:12)

Okay. Knocking out some debts in baby step two. Still working through that.

Caller (58:16)

Yes. So when I went through Financial Peace University and I did all the things, I sat down and looked at everything, really, I was able. I was able to pay off three credit cards at one time.

George Kamel (58:27)

Wow.

Caller (58:28)

Because I didn't realize they were so low.

George Kamel (58:31)

That's great.

Dr. John Deloney (58:32)

You're just looking at the smile of.

George Kamel (58:33)

Payments just by not ignoring it and not being in denial, going, all right, I'm going to put this on paper, put it in the Every Dollar app and go, what can I do about this? And you just went, I could knock these three out.

Caller (58:43)

Oh, yeah. Knocked those three out. Right now I'm working on. Obviously, I still have three more credit cards, so I'm working on those, getting those down.

George Kamel (58:53)

How much is left? Total?

Caller (58:55)

All my credit cards?

George Kamel (58:56)

Yeah. Total debt that you have left to pay off in baby step two?

Caller (58:59)

Oh, like completely.

George Kamel (59:00)

Yeah.

Caller (59:02)

115.

Dr. John Deloney (59:05)

You got, you got. You got a journey ahead of you, huh?

Caller (59:08)

Yeah, It's Student loans because I went to back to school to get a master's degree and you know, at the time take out a loan was always, you know.

George Kamel (59:17)

Did you finish the masters?

Caller (59:19)

Oh, yeah, I have my master's in marine biology.

George Kamel (59:22)

Okay, and you're using that now to teach or are you not teaching on that subject?

Caller (59:27)

Not teaching yet. I'm hoping to hear back from a job, though.

George Kamel (59:29)

Very awesome. Well, we are rooting for you, Skyler. Appreciate the update. I love to see just how much life has changed for you in nine months just by having some hard conversations and doing some hard things.

Dr. John Deloney (59:39)

Skyler, give like. So there are. We're heading into the holidays season and one out of three calls of letters that come into my, my show, the John DeLoney show. One out of three of those is either like adult, newly adult kids who have cut off their aging parents or aging parents who are have cut off their kids. And almost always there's one big, heavy, looming conversation hanging between that relationship. What would you tell the 25 year old, the 27 year old, the 22 year old that can't feels like they can no longer be around their aging parents about that conversation, what advice would you give them?

Caller (60:31)

Well, from my experience, it's. You just have to say it because nine times out of 10 it's. It's not as bad as you think it is. I'm a huge overthinker and so I had the whole conversation in my head before I even approached my parents about it. And that's what scared me into not telling them.

Dr. John Deloney (60:46)

Ah, you, you, you replayed that imaginary conversation a thousand times, huh?

Caller (60:51)

Oh, yeah. Like every second I wanted to bring it up, that conversation would play over again.

Dr. John Deloney (60:55)

Okay.

Caller (60:55)

And you know, people do change too. If you're with. If you know for sure your parents or whoever you have to have that conversation with, with is making efforts to be a better person, they're most like they're more likely going to not react the way that you expect.

Dr. John Deloney (61:11)

Gotcha. Well, I'm proud of you for doing that. And this is what changing your family tree looks like. And oh yeah, you're raising a kid that's gonna know. I can always go to my mom with hard conversations. And you're living proof. That's amazing. We're proud of you.

Caller (61:26)

Well, thank you.

Dr. John Deloney (61:27)

It's cool.

Caller (61:28)

And I appreciate you guys. I used everything you guys gave me and then I shared the books you guys sent me with a friend of mine who needed them.

George Kamel (61:34)

I love it. The ripple effect continues.

Dr. John Deloney (61:37)

John, pass it along. Pass it Along.

George Kamel (61:39)

There's so many pieces there. You know, we. We behind the scenes, we talk about the Ramsey show as being more than about money. It's expanded because we realized half the calls are about relational dysfunction.

Dr. John Deloney (61:49)

Yeah.

George Kamel (61:49)

Not about the money thing, which is what they called in about as we dig one layer deeper. Or it's about a work thing and a career thing and getting the income up. And this one really hits all three of those buckets.

Dr. John Deloney (61:59)

Correct.

George Kamel (62:00)

She had a career problem, she had the money problem, and she had the relational problem with the parents. And it's amazing how you can work on all three at once. And there's a domino effect.

Dr. John Deloney (62:09)

Well, in the underlying. The underlying foundation to all those problems is this one uncomfortable truth. You cannot go around scary things. You can't go around debt. You can't go around that big, hard, scary conversation you need to have with your loved ones one, two, or three times. You can't go around a job that's not working for you and your new kit. You can't go around it. You got to go right through it. And it doesn't always have a happy ending like Skyler has. Right. But there's more happy endings out there, if you will just head right through the discomfort.

George Kamel (62:47)

Well, most people have pre decided, well, here's what's going to happen, so what's the point?

Dr. John Deloney (62:51)

Or it's the imaginary conversation. I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell George that. You're never gonna tell George that. Right. Like, and then they're gonna say the. It's. That kind of rumination is never. It's never happy. Brene Brown calls it dress rehearsing. Tragedy. You're just pl. You're performing it without actually doing it. Just go. We're heading the holiday season. If you got to have that hard conversation, have it.

George Kamel (63:13)

Now's the time.

Dr. John Deloney (63:14)

If you realize I can't even afford the Christmas presents I'm about to start buying, then have that reality go right through the middle of the discomfort.

George Kamel (63:22)

Talk about it at Thanksgiving.

Dr. John Deloney (63:23)

Yes.

George Kamel (63:24)

At Christmas. In a blowup argument, that's exactly right. You set the boundary, you set the expectation, and that's really going to create the best life for you. Instead of being resentful, I'd rather you feel a little guilty. That's the best case scenario.

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George Kamel (64:36)

See boostmobile.com Ramsey for details. Well, John, the old dog's got some new tricks. We've done something different on the Ramsey show and started introducing video calls. So now we don't just get to hear from the audience, we get to see their beautiful faces. So if you want to be a part of that, you've got a question you'd like to submit and you want to be on video. We'd love that. Go to ramseysolutions.com ask let us know your question and in the subject line just put video call. So our team knows that you are willing and able to be on video. And the experience has been really cool so far. So we'd love more of those video calls. Go to ramseysolutions.com ask Subject Video Call. Looking forward to talking and seeing you guys. All right, let's go to Grace in Jacksonville, Florida. Up next, Grace, how can we help today?

Caller (65:42)

Hi, I'm sorry, I'm really nervous to meet you guys. I am 19 and I want to know how to best prepare and invest in my future. Even though I make a low income while having debt and helping my mother pay bills.

George Kamel (65:57)

Wow, that's a lot to take on as a 19 year old. What kind of debt are you in?

Caller (66:03)

It's just, it's just credit card but.

George Kamel (66:06)

Okay.

Dr. John Deloney (66:07)

How much?

Caller (66:10)

3,375.

Dr. John Deloney (66:13)

Okay.

George Kamel (66:13)

And what do you make?

Caller (66:17)

I work two part time jobs and a couple other things on the side, but I still only make about a little less than 28,000.

George Kamel (66:24)

28,000. Okay. And you're, are you in school? What's going on on the other side?

Caller (66:30)

I am in college. I'm almost done with my associates in arts degree and then I want to go into communications.

George Kamel (66:38)

Great. Is that part of your undergrad?

Caller (66:43)

Yes.

George Kamel (66:43)

Okay, so it's a four year situation.

Caller (66:48)

Two year and then I'm going into a two year university for the bachelor's.

George Kamel (66:52)

Great. Okay. And are you cash flowing that or are you going into student loan debt?

Caller (66:57)

I don't have any student loans. I, it's all financial aid paid for and I have chapter 35 from my dad being in the military.

George Kamel (67:05)

Okay, great. That's one of my goals for you. You're talking about how to invest in myself. It's to avoid student Loan debt, is it a, it's a plague among young adults and it's going to propel you forward if you can do this debt free. Now tell me about mom. What's going on with you? Helping mom with expenses.

Caller (67:23)

So my parents are divorced so. And I live with my mom. So she's basically a single mother and has been for many a couple years. I use, I use some of the money to help her pay bills up to like 250 to 500 every two weeks. And that goes to the mortgage on our house as well. So like with that, the mortgage, bills and all of that, I do end up like spending a lot of money.

George Kamel (67:52)

So 500 to 1000 bucks a month is what you're doling out from your take home pay basically.

Dr. John Deloney (67:58)

And is she, is she sitting you down and saying I need this money to survive or is this you just trying to pitch in or is this, do you pay rent? Like what's the arrangement here?

Caller (68:11)

It's, it's not, it's the first one like just to be able to just at least get us by.

George Kamel (68:19)

I, I know she asked for that. She asked for.

Dr. John Deloney (68:22)

Asking for.

Caller (68:23)

Yes.

George Kamel (68:23)

Okay. Is she working full time?

Caller (68:27)

Yes, she is a director at a daycare center.

Dr. John Deloney (68:30)

Okay.

George Kamel (68:30)

Okay. And what does she make? Do you know?

Caller (68:33)

About 50,000 a year.

George Kamel (68:35)

Okay.

Caller (68:36)

And it's a brand new job though.

George Kamel (68:38)

Okay. I'm wondering, the future for Grace means you're probably moving out eventually. And so I want to make sure that mom has a sustainable plan versus well, if I don't have Grace's money, I'm going to be broke.

Dr. John Deloney (68:49)

Well, and here's the problem for you Grace, is you can't make that choice for her. You can't make that decision for her and ultimately you can't be held responsible for the choices she makes.

Caller (69:01)

Takes.

Dr. John Deloney (69:02)

And so on the back end of divorce, one of the hardest conversations I have with people who just got divorced is you cannot afford the home y' all have been living in and people want to keep everything the same except for the divorce. And the divorce is so painful and it's so messy and yada yada, but we want everything else to stay the same. And that's, it's one of the hardest conversations. And you as a 19 year old old, you can't continue to prop up a bigger, harder decision that your mom needs to make on her own. As an adult, if you want to choose to live there and say, hey, I want to start, I want to shift this from Hey, 200 this month. I need 400 for next month. I'm telling you right now, Grace, this is a recipe for resentment and your mom doesn't deserve that and you don't either. It's getting really clear with. I want to come up with a rent number that I pay you every month.

Caller (69:58)

Month. Okay.

Dr. John Deloney (70:00)

You get what I'm saying? And that's you stepping into your 19 year oldness, your young adulthood and saying, I want to begin to clarify my roles and responsibilities in my life. Because you can't make a plan if there's the emotional weight and the reality to. Hey, I need 1,000 bucks. Hey, I need 500 bucks. Hey, I need 200 bucks over here because here's what you're going to start doing, rightfully so. Hey, why did you buy that? We didn't need that. You're going out to eat again. Like you're going to start these little bitty cracks in your relationship with your mom. And so I want you to own what you can on your side of that relationship, which is clarity, clarity, clarity, clarity. And like George said, I want you to start considering being in your own apartment by 20. You don't have to. But what would the math look like? What would you need to do? What would, what would the world look like if that was your plan?

Caller (70:50)

So we. Mom actually used to live in an apartment and we just moved into a house because we couldn't afford the rent anymore.

George Kamel (70:59)

So she purchased that home.

Caller (71:03)

It is with a mortgage.

George Kamel (71:05)

So yeah, she bought it.

Dr. John Deloney (71:07)

She can't afford that home either. It doesn't sound.

George Kamel (71:08)

Yeah. What's the mortgage on it? Do you know?

Caller (71:12)

The monthly or the full, like the monthly mortgage? About 1, 1700.

George Kamel (71:20)

Okay, well can she afford that on her own if you were to move out today? Because my guess is she's probably bringing home 3,000 something a month.

Caller (71:36)

I don't think she would.

George Kamel (71:37)

So that's my fear is that this mortgage is over half of her take home pay and the only reason she could afford it was because you're there helping people to prop it up artificially right now. So that's going to be part of that hard decision that John said. That's not your responsibility. That's the sad truth. And so if she has to end up selling this home because you decide to move out, I don't want you to feel guilty for that, okay?

Dr. John Deloney (72:01)

Because then you're going to begin to say, well, I can't afford to finish this degree or I can't take this job in this town that they just, they want to hire me for because I've got to stay. And it's a counterintuitive way that's going to really cap you and your mom trying to take care of you. You're like, we're ride or die together. That's a ton of weight for a teenager to carry. Or let me put it this way. I always tell parents, you can't call your kid your friend until they reach 25, because a teenager can't carry the weight of an adult friendship and of the full adult responsibility. Holidays, it's a lot. And I'm not saying you let your mom be destitute, whatever, but she's got to make grown up decisions. And if she has to get this daycare job and then go from there to working holiday hours at Target or whatever to pay her bills, man, that's hard. And it's, it's tough. And she's an adult and she needs to make those math decisions if she wants to rent out a room to her daughter. Awesome. Let's just get that real, real, real clear.

Caller (73:07)

Okay?

George Kamel (73:07)

And lastly, Grace, what was the 3,300 bucks in credit card debt for?

Caller (73:13)

So it's actually from my mom because we, this is a pre planned prepaid thing like from a while ago that my old school was doing this Europe tour and so we went because it was like, like really cheap to do. It was with a whole school education.

George Kamel (73:36)

So you put on the credit card?

Caller (73:39)

Yeah, my mom did.

George Kamel (73:41)

Let me tell you this, 3300 bucks at 29% APR is not cheap. And so if I were you, I would pay off that credit card, cut it up, freeze your credit so that you can't make another bad financial decision, especially at 19.

Dr. John Deloney (73:54)

And I think I just heard you say something right there at the end of that question call. Never, ever, ever, ever let your mom talk you into borrowing money on your credit, on your Social Security number, on your credit cards. That is a nightmare recipe.

George Kamel (74:08)

You're setting a precedent.

Dr. John Deloney (74:09)

Blow up your relationship with her forever.

George Kamel (74:11)

Grace, it's normal to be broke at 19, but it's not normal to have this kind of intertwined financial life with your mother. And so that's the thing I would caution you against.

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George Kamel (76:09)

Hey, you don't have to wait for Black Friday to get Black Friday deals. The sale is on now in our store. That includes $12 bestselling hardcovers, $12 questions for humans, decks from my friend Dr. John DeLoney, audiobooks and ebooks for just 6.99 and $15 assessments. So much more where that came from. Go to ramseysolutions.com store or if you're watching on YouTube or podcast, click the link in the description. Chris is in Cleveland. Up next, what's going on?

Caller (76:36)

Chris, hi. Thanks for taking from the bottom of my heart my call.

George Kamel (76:41)

Oh, we're on.

Caller (76:42)

I'm calling. Oh, you guys are great listener. I wish I would have followed through everybody out there, listen to them. It would have been great.

George Kamel (76:52)

Thank you.

Caller (76:54)

What I'm calling about is there's a long history, but I'm 70 years old. My first husband passed away. My second husband passed away, but with the second husband, well, I did. I adopted my grandchild because of situations. Eventually, because of different things, I bought a condo on my own. The condo now is worth about $425,000. I have Social Security and other things coming in. Jacob, now, the child is 19 years old and he is in an H VAC program, which I'm really proud of him for doing that and he's a good K. But I'm wondering, he kind of wants to venture out and I'm to the point where I kind of want to sell the condo. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering if I should sell it and buy him something or if I should just stay here and help rent it out to him and this new girlfriend.

Dr. John Deloney (78:14)

But I can, I can tell by your voice you know the answer to all that is no. Why do you feel the pressure to do something that you don't want to do?

Caller (78:30)

I want to make sure that I, you Know his mom is a wayward child and daughter who is great.

Dr. John Deloney (78:41)

But.

Caller (78:41)

But I want to make sure he's taken care of. I want to make sure he has something. I'm 70.

Dr. John Deloney (78:48)

Are you paying for this H Vac product program?

Caller (78:52)

No, the H. No, the H Vac program. He has gotten, you know, some foundations and everything for it. And I do have. I do have money from. Money from his grandfather. No, I'm not paying for it.

Dr. John Deloney (79:15)

Distill down for me. What your actual question is, Are you asking, should you sell. Sell this your home so that you can buy him a house?

Caller (79:24)

Well, the point is I want to make sure he's taken care of. This, this condo is getting to be a lot for me.

George Kamel (79:32)

What does taking care of mean? Yeah, there's a difference of he's not going to be on the streets to. He has a paid for home in 19.

Dr. John Deloney (79:38)

You adopted him and saved him. He is where he is because of you.

Caller (79:44)

You. I know, I understand.

Dr. John Deloney (79:46)

Okay, so you have given him everything.

Caller (79:50)

I know.

Dr. John Deloney (79:51)

And now he's on a. On a good path. He's going to be one of these new blue collar millionaires that everybody's talking about.

Caller (79:58)

But you know what? I'm to the point where I don't want this condo anymore.

George Kamel (80:03)

Okay?

Dr. John Deloney (80:03)

That, that's a separate issue.

George Kamel (80:04)

Disconnect that from, from your grandson.

Dr. John Deloney (80:07)

Where do you want to move?

George Kamel (80:08)

Where you going?

Dr. John Deloney (80:08)

Where are you going to live? Because you're going to live to be 95. You got 20 more years.

Caller (80:13)

I hope so.

Dr. John Deloney (80:13)

Okay, you got 20 more years. He's going to be 40. Where are you going to go?

George Kamel (80:19)

Are you going to go rent somewhere?

Caller (80:22)

And that's when I don't know what to do. I don't know. Because he doesn't want to stay. He's talking about moving out. And if he's talking about moving out and him and his girlfriend for 800 bucks a month can afford something.

George Kamel (80:38)

Okay, and what's wrong with that?

Caller (80:40)

There's no way. What's wrong with that is you're saying.

George Kamel (80:45)

He can only afford 800 bucks a month.

Caller (80:47)

As a Christian.

Dr. John Deloney (80:48)

Okay, there we go. That's it. This is a violation of your values.

Caller (80:53)

Right?

Dr. John Deloney (80:54)

You selling your house and moving where you want to move is issue one. If you don't like this condo anymore, great. But you gotta have a place to live. And if you've already paid this thing off and you're not going to something, I would suggest you hang on to this condo condo. Because nobody can take it from you if Social Security goes belly up in the next 10 years. If Social Security doesn't keep up with inflation, which it hasn't been. If, if, if, if nobody can take your home from you.

Caller (81:24)

I know, but part of it is Social Security. I mean, I've got $42,000 coming in per month.

George Kamel (81:31)

42,000 per month?

Caller (81:34)

Yes. No, per year.

George Kamel (81:36)

Okay. I was like, I don't know what kind of Social Security.

Caller (81:42)

My fault.

George Kamel (81:43)

So you got 4,200 of income per month. You have no debt at all, Right?

Caller (81:48)

No.

George Kamel (81:48)

You live fairly frugally.

Caller (81:50)

There's two cars. You know, I try. Absolutely. And I just. Part of me really wants to move out of the condo.

Dr. John Deloney (82:00)

To where, though? To where?

Caller (82:03)

I'm thinking. I'm thinking about Senior Place.

George Kamel (82:07)

Great.

Dr. John Deloney (82:07)

That's amazing. Can you afford to that?

Caller (82:11)

Absolutely. I mean, my mom. My mom had a place and she just passed away within the year. Eighteen hundred dollars a month.

Dr. John Deloney (82:20)

Okay. Get with a Smartvestor pro, sell your home, put the 425 you're going to get from it in an account that will earn money to make sure you're next 20 years. You can afford this place.

Caller (82:34)

But what do I do about Jacob?

Dr. John Deloney (82:37)

You can't.

George Kamel (82:37)

Here's the most beautiful part. He's. He's turning into a grown man, and he's in the H Vac world. He's going to make great money, and he gets to figure that out for himself. And my fear is you stepping in is actually going to harm him more than it's going to help him.

Dr. John Deloney (82:51)

When my grandmother, when I came home from college and she sat me down and said I had five, I think, at the time, earrings, and my hair was all long, and she said, I don't like your earrings.

Caller (83:01)

That's not Jacob, though.

Dr. John Deloney (83:03)

I. I know, but I'm just saying, like, she. My grandmother, who I love, told me she didn't like a thing I was doing.

Caller (83:11)

Okay?

Dr. John Deloney (83:11)

And I heard her, and that actually made some changes in my life, but that was the extent of the power she held over me.

Caller (83:19)

Okay.

Dr. John Deloney (83:20)

And you're trying to take ownership or even asking yourself, did I do something wrong? Because he's at 18 or 19, wanting to move in with his girlfriend into a cheap apartment. I'm going to free you from that. No. You saved his life.

Caller (83:32)

Okay.

Dr. John Deloney (83:33)

Okay.

Caller (83:33)

All right. Thank you.

Dr. John Deloney (83:34)

You've done.

Caller (83:35)

Thank you for your time. Time.

Dr. John Deloney (83:37)

He's done something amazing. You.

George Kamel (83:39)

You've instilled character into this and gave him a safe place and showed him what love looked like. That is worth far more than you handing him a condo at 19 which no 19 year old needs handed to them. And handing somebody to rent somewhere and figure it out.

Dr. John Deloney (83:52)

A half a million dollar condo is not going to keep him from living with his girlfriend. Maybe you sitting him down and saying hey, this is a big deal to me. I, I want to be heard on this. I'm your grandmother and slash your mom, don't do this. Then he gets to decide what he's going to go do next. But yeah, buying him a house, whatever. Sell your condo, that's great. Make sure you sit down with a smartvestor pro on what to do with the as with the cash so that 20 years of living in a residential facility, you're going to be okay. You're always going to have money to take care of yourself. That's the greatest gift you can get for him is him not having to come pay your rent. Rent the last 10 years of your life. So making sure you're good to go, that's a gift. But man, yeah, be heard on this values thing.

George Kamel (84:38)

Chris is such a sweet, sweet person. If she's taking grandson applications, I'm willing to apply. My grandma, God rest her soul, here's what she gave us and we were grateful for it. 100 bucks at Christmas, 100 bucks on the birthday.

Dr. John Deloney (84:50)

That's a huge.

George Kamel (84:50)

No condos. I turned out okay.

Dr. John Deloney (84:54)

Barely. But I love that my grandmother mother had, I mean she didn't have the courage. She was just amazing. But she said I don't like that hair. I don't like those earrings. I like this woman. You need to marry her. Which when I was dating my wife, like that was awesome. That was awesome.

George Kamel (85:09)

That wisdom.

Dr. John Deloney (85:10)

Yeah, was great.

George Kamel (85:11)

Far more.

Dr. John Deloney (85:11)

But I still at 19, 20, 25, whatever. I had to go make the next decision I thought was the right one.

George Kamel (85:17)

Yeah, handing a. I mean just thinking me at 19. You hand any 19 year old any large asset, right? Any large amount of money, they're going to squander it and screw it up.

Dr. John Deloney (85:25)

He'll sell it within the month.

George Kamel (85:26)

Our brains are not developed enough to handle something like that. And best case scenario it destroys your work ethic. Cuz you're like, well I was working so hard so one day I could own a home and now it's just handed to me. So who needs work anymore? Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fair Winds Credit Union studio. I'm George Camel, joined by Dr. Johnson DeLoney. Open phones at Triple 882-55-2225. Page awaits in Michigan. Up next. What's going on?

Caller (86:20)

Paige Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call. So my question today is how do I tell my mom that I don't want her to be my financial advisor?

George Kamel (86:30)

Oh, is she literally a financial advisor? That is her profession.

Caller (86:35)

So for background, she is becoming a financial advisor right now. My current financial advisor, she was working for and he's retiring, so she is taking over for him.

Dr. John Deloney (86:47)

Very simple. Very simple conversation. I got you. You ready?

Caller (86:52)

Yes.

Dr. John Deloney (86:53)

I need you to just be my mom.

Caller (86:57)

Yeah. So the issue with that is actually Ash. I was. I was meeting with a financial advisor that actually works right next to her office yesterday. She was leaving work early, and right as I was walking into the other door, she was walking out and she was pretty upset that I. Oh, I. Another context. I have a 529 plan that was set up years ago, and I yesterday converted it over to start the process of converting it to an ira. And she was pretty upset with me when she saw me.

Dr. John Deloney (87:30)

Okay, but like, if she was a therapist, you wouldn't go to her for therapy.

Caller (87:36)

Yes. Okay. True. That's so true.

Dr. John Deloney (87:38)

And so when she. I want you to tell her, hey, mom, if you were going to graduate school to get a graduate degree in therapy, I would tell all my friends to come see you, but I can't have you as my therapist. I need you as my mom. And I'm so proud of you for going to get your financial stuff. That's awesome. But I want you to stay my mom. Of course I'm going to ask you your opinion on stuff, but I need. I want to preserve this relationship.

Caller (88:00)

Okay. What do I do if she feels offended by that? Because she is.

Dr. John Deloney (88:07)

You can't control that.

Caller (88:09)

Okay. Yes.

Dr. John Deloney (88:10)

And can I be honest with you? You've probably been having to solve for that your whole life. Have.

George Kamel (88:14)

Having you.

Caller (88:16)

Yes, I think so.

Dr. John Deloney (88:18)

Yes. Mom's gonna get mad. Don't do this. Don't say that. Mom's gonna get mad. What you learned as a really young kid is that it was your job to take care of the emotional needs of the adults in your life. And that's never a kid's job.

Caller (88:33)

Yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (88:33)

And so if your mom. If you do what's best for you and your mom decides to go off the handle, scream and yell, not talk to you, not invite you to Christmas. Christmas. That's heartbreaking. You have to grieve that. But that's a choice that she is a. As another adult made to put conditions on her love for her daughter, which is. You will be one of my clients.

Caller (88:56)

Yep. Okay. You know, it's so funny. My husband actually just told me this last night, too. He's a huge fan of yours, smart guy.

Announcer (89:03)

All right.

Dr. John Deloney (89:04)

Do not tell him that you called us. Tell him. Be like, you know what, honey? You're so smart and. And handsome. You are. Right, Right. And he's going to be like, oh, yeah.

Caller (89:14)

I love it. Thank you.

George Kamel (89:15)

Yeah. Oh, here's my take, too. Paige. I want someone who's unbiased and unclouded. And the truth is, your mom loves you so much, she can't. Her judgment will be clouded by her love for you and what she wants for you and what she didn't get to do and what she would have done if she was your age. I want. I just want an old guy who's like, here's the math. Here's what to invest in. I go, okay, cool. You know, or an old woman. This is not sexist, but you know what I mean? I want someone so unbiased and so far removed who's looking at my situation from 30,000ft, not somebody who was, you know, changing my diapers a decade ago.

Caller (89:49)

Right.

George Kamel (89:49)

So there's just. It's just harder when it's someone that close to you. So it's not out of that you don't love her or you don't trust her.

Dr. John Deloney (89:54)

No. It's because you love her and trust her that you want to keep the roles clear.

Caller (89:59)

Yes, exactly. And I know you guys always say, don't mix family and money. Thanksgiving dinner tastes different.

Dr. John Deloney (90:05)

Yes. And by. And imagine, she moves you in a bunch of funds, and those funds, because they're on the market and they're part of a roller coaster system, they go down. I. I don't want that.

Caller (90:17)

Yeah, right.

Dr. John Deloney (90:18)

I don't want you looking at her being like, oh, our portfolio was good last month until mom moved it to. Right. It's just going to protect you. You all long term.

Caller (90:28)

Perfect. Okay. Thank you so much.

Dr. John Deloney (90:30)

Of course.

Caller (90:31)

I feel like I always need to hear from another source.

George Kamel (90:34)

From an unbiased third party. Yeah. There. That's it.

Dr. John Deloney (90:38)

George, if my mom worked in concrete, I would ask her to come help my fix my driveway. My mom was an English professor when it came to, hey, will you help me, like, edit this? Of course. But that's not a. It's not. It's. It's just. Does the comic go here? It's. There's.

George Kamel (90:59)

Yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (90:59)

There's not all this other drama involved in it. So there's certain jobs, man. Absolutely.

George Kamel (91:04)

My friend was just telling me so she's selling her house and her dad just became a real estate agent. He sold zero homes. Guess who's the real estate agent?

Dr. John Deloney (91:12)

Guess who's not going to sell their house?

George Kamel (91:14)

Dad. And so I'm like, this is a nightmare situation. But she's like, well, I just, I want to help him out. And I'm like, this is not. This is, this is scary.

Dr. John Deloney (91:23)

Well, you're choosing. I'm going to. And by the way, you're not helping out as much as you are placating. I would rather him not be sick sad. Then we sell our house.

George Kamel (91:33)

Exactly.

Dr. John Deloney (91:33)

He chooses to be sad. Great. And here's what's going to happen. He's going to struggle to sell that house. First one, it's just the way it goes. And he's going to start panicking and feeling a little bit shamed and then he's going to not call back all the time. And then Thanksgiving dinners.

George Kamel (91:49)

Oh, that was the other thing she said. Yeah, he's not great at like details and, and keeping up on stuff. Getting back to text and emails. Like, that's who you want selling be.

Dr. John Deloney (91:57)

Have the privilege of just being your dad.

George Kamel (92:00)

Yes. Amen. That's all we got to say. All right, Allison is up Next in Richmond, Virginia. What's your question, Allison?

Caller (92:07)

Yes, so I have a 12 year old that, well, she's 12 and a half that's been watched in and listening to the Ramsey show with us and watching her dad and I do our baby steps. And she's been saving money because she wants to buy a car in several years. So she has a checking account and a savings account. And we actually went to the bank yesterday, we were going to take a chunk of her savings and move it to a money market, but they said that because she's under 18, we can't do that. So we wanted to know, should we open a CD or what would you suggest that she's gaining more interest than just a little savings account?

George Kamel (92:40)

Yeah, well, she's making like zero something percent. Yeah.

Caller (92:44)

Right.

George Kamel (92:45)

You could do a. As the parent or guardian, you could open a high yield savings account.

Dr. John Deloney (92:50)

Account. That's what I would do.

George Kamel (92:51)

And designated as a savings account for the child.

Caller (92:55)

Okay.

George Kamel (92:56)

So it's just kind of a label on there that it's for the kid.

Caller (92:59)

Okay, so that's. So okay. As we asked about this, you can do a money market, put in your names and then just give it, turn it over to her when she's 18. But her name couldn't be on it.

George Kamel (93:08)

Exactly. You could just transfer it over and if you want a great High Yield Savings account, usually your brick and mortar banks have terrible High Yield savings accounts. Terrible rates.

Caller (93:16)

Rates.

George Kamel (93:16)

So you might want to look at an online option and one that I love and use is from our friends at Fairwinds. And you've heard Fairwinds Credit Union Studio, they have an awesome High Yield savings account. So you could open that in your name, label it for her and start stacking away money in there and it's going to make, you know, 10x what you're making in your current bank. And that's what I would do. CDs I don't love because the money's locked up and you got to time it perfectly for it to mature. All of that. And the rates in High Yield Savings Accounts are as good as a lot of the CDs out there.

Dr. John Deloney (93:46)

Don't lose this. She sounds like an extraordinary 13 year old. Very mature. Is that fair?

Caller (93:52)

Yeah, she is.

Dr. John Deloney (93:53)

Okay. One thing, a gift you can give her that's not going to feel like a gift in the moment is to remind her through things like this that you are still the parent.

Caller (94:05)

I like that.

Dr. John Deloney (94:06)

Okay, because. Because when she goes to buy a car, she, she is going to save $7,000 to go buy a car. You are going to say you can or cannot buy this car because you're 16.

Caller (94:15)

Right?

Dr. John Deloney (94:16)

Right. And I'm not gonna let you buy a cool truck that's been dropped with. Right. Because I'm still your parent. This is a great way to say, hey, I'm proud of you. This is your money, you've earned it. But we're gonna put it in this account because it can earn more money for you.

George Kamel (94:30)

And I like the 401 Dave plan. Maybe you match what she puts into that and she gets a $14,000 used car four years from now. Now we're talking.

Announcer (94:57)

Do you want to keep more money in your pocket and not Uncle Sam's? Then listen up. There are tax deductions and credits you could maximize before the end of by connecting with an experienced tax professional like a Ramsey Trusted Tax Pro. They know the tax code inside now so you don't have to and they can help you file when tax season rolls around. Get a trusted tax pro by going to ramseysolutions.com taxpro ramseysolutions.com taxpro.

Caller (95:35)

Foreign.

George Kamel (95:45)

Buying or selling your home is a big deal. With all the clickbait headlines and conflicting data out there, it's hard to know what's really happening in the housing market. So let's make the trends easy to understand. The median home prices held steady around $424,000 in October. About one in five houses saw a price cut, which means buyers might have more room this winter to negotiate and snag a better price. Mortgage rates dipped slightly to about five and a half percent in October, giving some buyers breathing room. But since rates are unpredictable, the best time to buy is when you're financially ready, not when rates drop. Do not try to time the market in that way. So if you want to learn more about housing market trends and get some free tools to help you buy or sell with confidence, go to ramseysolutions.com market or click the link in the show Notes. If you're listening on podcast or watching on YouTube, Victoria is in Temple, Texas. Up next, what's going on, Victoria?

Caller (96:35)

Hey, thanks. So I, yeah, so my husband and I have no consumer debt, but we're about to close probably in January on our house, which will be about 260 after the down payment, maybe a little bit less because we're stacking it right now with my income right now I work. It's called prn. It's as needed. So it works because I have two young kids. I have a two and a half year old and a ten month old. So right now though, we're looking at, well, what if I took, there's a full time nights position coming up. I work social work in the ER Usually there's a full time nights position coming up in the spring. So we're looking at, well what if I took that and we just worked really hard for a season in order to pay it off? Like we could pay our house off in about three and a half years.

George Kamel (97:23)

And so what's stressing you out about this house? Why the aggressive nature?

Caller (97:28)

Well, well, that's the thing and that's kind of why I'm, you know, trying to get some advice is because it's not necessarily stressing us out. We have a lot of peace with where we're at right now. But the idea of looking forward and seeing, you know, a short sprint and then being at the end of it and being totally free, which is huge to us, being able to do, you know, what we need to do, want to do if we feel called to go somewhere else, do something else, like all that kind of freedom.

George Kamel (97:53)

Yeah.

Caller (97:53)

Is just really appealing to us.

George Kamel (97:54)

So I don't want you're talking to two guys are obsessed with not owing people money.

Dr. John Deloney (98:00)

I feel the exact same pain. It just know that it comes At a cost. And it does. It wears you out around the edges.

George Kamel (98:08)

In my brain, I'm going, well right now with a two and a half year old and a ten month old, this is when they need you the most. And so could we delay this aggressive take until maybe when they're three and five? Okay. Now life is a little easier. You can afford to take a little more sacrifice. That's a personal decision. I'm just looking at the variables. As a dad with, with two young ones like you.

Caller (98:31)

Right.

George Kamel (98:32)

It would be a really hard season for me to sacrifice right now versus when they're a little bit older.

Caller (98:38)

Yeah, I, I kind of look at it two different ways. Like, I think it would be a different sacrifice at that point.

Dr. John Deloney (98:44)

It is.

Caller (98:45)

I kind of look at it. I'm like, they're not really going to remember this time. I mean, I'm there. My mom watches them when I'm not home.

Dr. John Deloney (98:50)

They're nervous. If they will, their nervous system will.

Caller (98:53)

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (98:54)

But, but again, you have the right word. Any path you take is a sacrifice in. Any path you take comes with trade offs.

Caller (99:02)

Yeah.

George Kamel (99:03)

So if we play this out where you don't make this sacrifice, how long will it take to pay off the mortgage if you just make extra payments with your current income and that, what's that trajectory?

Caller (99:14)

That would be more like five years, I think. I think when I looked at it. No, it's more like maybe, maybe eight.

George Kamel (99:19)

Okay. And then let's also, you guys will be making more money two years from now, four years from now than you are today, Correct?

Caller (99:28)

Probably.

George Kamel (99:29)

Or is there a world where you want to stay home for a season or are you wanting to continue?

Caller (99:34)

My long term goal is to be home. I was home for the first about year and a half of my son's life and went back to work actually right before I had my second to try to stack up cash for this down payment.

George Kamel (99:43)

Okay.

Caller (99:45)

And so, you know, I want to eventually be home. And that's part of it too is like at that point I could just be home and not have this.

Dr. John Deloney (99:50)

Let me ask you, I want to ask George a question on your behalf. Okay. So, so this mortgage you're taking out is 260.

Caller (99:58)

Yeah. At tops. After down payment.

Dr. John Deloney (100:00)

All right, so let's say after down payment, let's for easy math, let's say 250. Okay. That's what you'll come in at, George. Could they take one year and just go, go B A N A N A s. Get it down to where they owe 125 and then go recast that to where their payment is 125. That basically their existing mortgage which keeps all the interest the same. Everything's the same except now your monthly payment just plummets so that you could then stay home and you have $125,000 mortgage.

George Kamel (100:32)

I like that plan. What does your husband make?

Caller (100:36)

He's actually starting a new job this week where he'll be making 80 his take home. After all the I calculated whole thing, it should be about 2,700 a paycheck per paycheck.

George Kamel (100:47)

Okay, and then what are you making right now?

Caller (100:50)

Well, right Now I make 1 to 3,000amonth because I work, you know, I pick up shifts if I'm part time. This job, my take home after, you know, retirement and all that would be maybe around 6ish.

George Kamel (101:01)

Oh wow.

Dr. John Deloney (101:02)

So let me throw a thing that a variable in here that I always recommend to brand new parents. Okay. Make six month plans, make three month plans. Because what happens sometimes is people make four year commitments and they have a ten month old and then in six months you absolutely hate every second of your life waking up and being away from this barely one year old kid.

Caller (101:31)

Yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (101:32)

And you feel trapped because quote unquote, we made a a deal. And so what if y' all say we're going to do try this plan out but we are have it already on the calendar. We already have a half day retreat planned with just the two of us to say, do we still like each other? Do we still is our, are we still like hanging out with each other? Do we still like going to bed at the same time? Do we still does our intimacy life? Are we still going the way we want to be? Do we have the life that we want to have right this second and is the sacrifice still worth it? And that gives both of you permission. Permission to, to say ugh, I hate what we're doing to go cool, pull the plug. You get what I'm saying? That way you don't feel trapped.

Caller (102:11)

Yeah, at first when we started talking about it like we were like, no, we're not doing that, that's crazy. And then as we've talked about it more, we're like, well what if we try it? And then we definitely have that understanding together of like, well if we do this not committing to more than like a year and if we feel good about it at that point, keep going. But if not, then we stop. Or even if something sooner comes up because that's the great thing about my job now. Is I have that freedom to work when it works for us and not work when it doesn't work for us.

Dr. John Deloney (102:35)

And, and make no mistake, what you're doing is like clinically, technically crazy. Right? It is, it's abnormal. It's outside of the normal and it could change everything for the rest of your life. But if y' all set the foundation of your marriage on fire to get to this thing, then when you get there, you cross that finish line, you got nothing left to give. Or you look back and realize we don't like each other other. We don't like the parents we've become. We haven't been intimate in five years. Like it will come at a cost and so it's constantly going back and checking in. The reason I can't tell you don't do this is it's exactly what I did.

Caller (103:12)

Yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (103:12)

And I don't regret it, but I wish my wife and I had. Had had better conversations on the front end and we had a lot and I'm glad that we both, I'm glad that we did it. So it's, it's both and, but just go in very wide eyed that this is going to come at a cost.

Caller (103:28)

Yeah. Well, definitely do. And that's why I'm trying to seek wisdom is I know like, you know, just the night schedule and switching back to days to be with them on my days off and like, you know, that just would be a lot. It will be a lot alone and then also my kids.

Dr. John Deloney (103:42)

Right. But I, I am a lot. When I owe somebody money, I just don't sleep as well. And I know because I've tracked it. Right. I just don't. I. It just weighs on me and so everybody's a little bit different there. But man, you're. I always tell folks go, if you can do it in two years, then just hit the gas and you're looking at doubling that to four years.

George Kamel (104:00)

What's the mortgage payment going to be likely?

Caller (104:03)

I think it'll be around 18 or 19, depends on what the interest rate comes to.

George Kamel (104:08)

Okay. It sounds like your husband could cover that if he was just, if he was just his income.

Caller (104:14)

Yeah. We designed our life so that if I really wanted to be home, I could be good.

George Kamel (104:19)

That's what I was going to tell.

Dr. John Deloney (104:20)

Same page, same team.

George Kamel (104:21)

I didn't want you to craft a life where you both have to work full time and you have no options. So the fact that you do this.

Caller (104:26)

We crafted this to be good.

George Kamel (104:29)

Well, I think you have options then and I think you'll know pretty quickly if it's working for the family, if it's working for you. If you wanted to try it for a season, that might be what I would do is just test it out. My wife did this. She came back to work after she had a baby. Four months later. She was like, I need to be home. But at least we knew, you know, you know that you know, once you've, you've tried it out. So I would encourage you to try it out. And the good news is it's not a sin if you pay it off in five years instead of three. You're still so far ahead of America, it's mind blowing. I'm just so proud of you guys for pre deciding that you don't want to carry this mortgage for 15, 30 years.

Dr. John Deloney (105:03)

Commit to a short term goal. Hit it. Re evaluate.

Announcer (105:31)

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Dr. John Deloney (106:37)

Foreign.

George Kamel (106:41)

Welcome back to the Ramsey show. Open phones at Triple 882-522 5. Today's question of the day is sponsored by Y Refi. If you've tried everything to fix your defaulted private student loans and nothing's worked, why Refi can help they build custom fixed rate plans based on what you can actually afford. Learn more@yrefi.com Ramsey that's the letter y r e f y.com Ramsey not available in all states.

Dr. John Deloney (107:06)

All right, today's question comes from Nathan in Georgia. Nathan writes, I'm in college and I'm trying to earn a degree that will make me the most money in the quickest amount of time. You don't like that? I don't enjoy the field I'm studying, but my goal is to chase money and then figure out what I want to do after graduation. I really don't like that. Am I wrong to chase money instead of career satisfaction? Yes, yes, yes. And then more. Yes. And then yes after. After that.

Caller (107:35)

Wow.

George Kamel (107:36)

Okay. I'm trying to parse this. Earn the degree that will make me the most money in the quickest amount of time. What does that even mean? So the ROI on this degree, so that means like you're going to get into med school and become a doctor or you're going to work.

Dr. John Deloney (107:52)

It's the quickest amount of time. And so.

George Kamel (107:55)

So it's just whatever I can do in a four year degree that will roi with the highest paying job on the other side.

Dr. John Deloney (108:01)

Correct.

George Kamel (108:01)

And then I will figure out what I want to do after graduation. So there's no real career on the other side other than whatever pays the most?

Dr. John Deloney (108:10)

Yes, you can do that. You can, but it will not work out long term. And so I know I'm in the minority on this and I know I'm biased because I worked in colleges for years. The degree you get, the skill, you learn, how to do the trade, you learn whether you're learning the trade of communication, you're learning the trade trade of counseling, you're learning the trade of how to work in a business that is important and so is if you have to have a degree with 128 hours in it. That means you're going to have multiple professors over the course of your over your time. That means you're learning how to operate with 30 or 40 different bosses. What does this boss want in that paper versus what this boss wants? What is this one? You're also learning to work with your classmates. You're also learning to navigate and learn how to do quote unquote life, how to pay your bills, how to be on time. And so to just distill down education into a transaction. I'm morally opposed to that. And I think we've reduced it to high schools are struggling with this. I just need this grade so I can get this test. And what we have done is create a system where the only thing that matters is not what you have learned or know, but what does that end report card say? And we're finding that there is more A's than ever and we're falling off a cliff in terms of oh, you don't know how to do math, you know how to write. Right. You don't know how to think on your own. And so if you reduce this education to quickest, this quickest, that most roi you're gonna run into A mess. Okay, so that's number one. Number two, don't hear me say that what you get a major in doesn't matter. It absolutely does. And there's a bunch of insane majors out there that are not a good use of your and money. So be thoughtful about that. The next bigger thing here is am I wrong to chase money instead of career satisfaction? Yes. The number three on our study of millionaires, the number three was teachers. You, if you pursue something you love and that you become good at over time and you are helping people, you have to make real life choices about the math problem. That is your life. And what I love about teachers being number three is my wife was a teacher. She knew, knew what this job was going to pay. And so she made choices on her undergraduate degree and she made choices that her first car she bought was a Corolla and she thought it was going to go for 25 years. I guarantee that car still driving somewhere. She made peace with the Corolla life. She made peace with this is what I'm going to do and so this is what I want to have. And she would have fallen right in line with other teachers that you become a millionaire over time because you make choices about your lifestyle, right? But if you chase a million money, it will never end. It just won't end well.

George Kamel (110:53)

It'll never be enough. And if you get to some certain goal, the goalpost will just move and you'll, you'll be going, you'll be calling us saying, hey, I make 300,000 doing medical device sales and I hate it, right? Can I go back to school for the thing I love? I'm like, well, dude, just do that now. Do that now or don't go to school at all. If you just want to go make a bunch of money, go start a landscaping company and go bust your butt. Make six figures the first year. You can do that too. This is America. You have the choice. But chasing money in and of itself is a terrible goal. Instead, go, what do I love to do? What could I get really good at?

Dr. John Deloney (111:26)

And who's helping that? That to me is the magic question. It's a sustainable form, never comes up in. Because I. My whole career, my whole job trajectory has been the one thing I'm pretty good at is sitting behind closed doors and hurting people. I did that as a dean of students. I did that as a crisis responder. Now I do that as a YouTub. One day this will all go away and I'll.

George Kamel (111:48)

The job will change again.

Dr. John Deloney (111:50)

That's it. It will change again. But my identity is separate from. It has to be from a job title. The world's too crazy. It's moving too fast. Your job titles are going to change. The job we have right now did not exist when I graduated. And so chasing money or chasing an. I got to get this degree so I can go as fast as I can, man, who knows where I would be right now. I would have fallen off a cliff. But get real good at the thing that you do, right? You're real. You are really good at distilling down complex information and helping people. That would be good across number of fields. It just happens to be this one right now. What is the thing you're really good at and what lights you up and then go chase that.

George Kamel (112:26)

And by the way, people don't want to do business with someone who they know is just chasing money. They can smell the inauthenticity four miles away. And so you will actually suffer financially if you're just plain goal is chase money. Nobody wants to do that when you're desperate for the sale to make another buck.

Dr. John Deloney (112:42)

That's right.

George Kamel (112:43)

So I hope that helps. Nathan, hope you're listening out there. Hope all young people listen to this conversation, because this could spare you a lot of heartache. All right, Savannah is in Montgomery, Alabama. What's going on? Savannah?

Caller (112:56)

Hey. So I am looking to get some advice on a repossession situation that happened after a divorce, and I'm stuck paying for it.

Dr. John Deloney (113:08)

Oh, man. So was your. Is your divorce final finalized?

Caller (113:14)

Yes, it's been finalized. The vehicle was awarded to him in the divorce. I've tried to communicate with the loan company. They don't care, honestly, because my name is on the loan as well. After the divorce, he just didn't pay the truck and it got repoed back in June or July, I believe. They've since auctioned the vehicle off, and now they've sent me a letter for.

George Kamel (113:44)

The remaining balance, the deficiency amount. How much is that?

Caller (113:49)

7,000 or. I'm sorry, the whole balance is $12,714.30.

George Kamel (113:55)

Okay.

Dr. John Deloney (113:57)

Have you called your attorney to circle back?

Caller (114:01)

I have not.

George Kamel (114:03)

What did the divorce decree say?

Caller (114:04)

No longer being recorded. I'm sorry.

Dr. John Deloney (114:07)

What did the.

George Kamel (114:07)

What did the divorce decree say?

Caller (114:10)

So whatever was in his possession at the time of the divorce was awarded to him. Which is the. With the vehicle.

George Kamel (114:17)

Did it say he was responsible for the car payments or that you were?

Caller (114:21)

Well, that. It said so. That that was. The loan was in both of our names. And it said my debt was to be to me, and his debt was to be to him.

George Kamel (114:28)

Okay.

Caller (114:28)

And I had asked them about this, you know, before, and they just told me, you know, it's got my name on it. I have to deal with it.

George Kamel (114:35)

No, legally, they don't. The LE doesn't care about the decree. But it just, you know, if you could take legal action against them, if you wanted to pursue that, I think the easiest route to go is just try to settle because you are legally responsible for it. And so if you can settle for instead of 12, seven, if you can come up with five or six and they can call it paid off, I would do that.

Caller (114:54)

So they did send me a letter, that's what I got this week, telling me that they would settle for $7,628.58.

George Kamel (115:02)

Perfect. Perfect. Okay.

Dr. John Deloney (115:03)

How.

George Kamel (115:03)

How fast could you save that up if you just worked your tail off and did nothing else but save up to get this car out of your life?

Caller (115:11)

I mean, I don't know. On the letter, they're giving me 36 months to pay that off. I don't know if that's going to include interest or what.

George Kamel (115:18)

It may have some fees on there. You may be able to negotiate those off if you can say, hey, I'm going to pay you this money in a year, but I need you to remove all these extra fees.

Caller (115:27)

Okay? So, I mean, I'm a single mom and I work five full days a week. And then the weekends that I don't have, my kids, I work those weekends as well.

George Kamel (115:40)

Do you have any other debts right now?

Caller (115:43)

I have my house.

George Kamel (115:44)

Okay. Just the house. I would all my guns toward this.

Dr. John Deloney (115:47)

Would this be a case of going to a credit union and getting a loan and getting this thing knocked out?

George Kamel (115:51)

If you could do that, I would.

Caller (115:54)

Ideally, that would be great, but, I mean, when he left me after he destroyed everything.

George Kamel (115:59)

Yeah, your credit, your credit's tanked because of the repo.

Caller (116:01)

Like 400, probably.

George Kamel (116:03)

Yeah, you might.

Dr. John Deloney (116:04)

You might go to a credit union and take the divorce decree and explain it. And they may work with you because you're in a different situation. Especially if you bring your work, your current hours that you're working right now, they may give you that loan knowing there's a. There's an extenuating circumstance. But maybe not.

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George Kamel (117:12)

Our scripture of the day, Isaiah 48:17 I am the Lord your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go. Eddie Vedder said, life moves fast. As much as you can learn from your story, you have to move forward. Chip is in Dallas, Texas. Up next. What's going on, Chip?

Caller (117:34)

Well, get straight to the point, guys. My father and I are in business together. I've got two other brothers and one sister. They don't participate in the business and never have. My parents are getting a little bit older and I am worried about if something happens to them, where this leaves me for my business, which I've built. My father is a hands off partner and my main concern is I have a good relationship with my siblings. But you know, when stuff happens, stuff happens. So in this case it's a substantial business, but also we own the real estate. So I'm trying to figure out, is it something that I should try to pursue buying them out? I don't know if I could buy them out using funds from the business. And again, I don't know.

Dr. John Deloney (118:32)

But how much is he invested in for?

Caller (118:38)

So technically it's my mother's 25%, my father's 25, 25%, I'm 25% and my wife is 25%. Okay, let's just say my parents are 50. What are they in for though, money wise? Three and a half million dollars is total, what, what their share would be worth.

Dr. John Deloney (118:55)

And your concern is that they pass away suddenly and then your siblings come wanting their piece of that $3.5 million?

Caller (119:03)

Yes, I've talked to my father about it. He says that we have, have, I guess, laid it out equally. But my problem is, is that I don't know about the other assets if it's going to come into the point. Let's just say that if I want to take this business, am I going to have to buy out my siblings and.

Caller (119:22)

No.

Dr. John Deloney (119:22)

But is your dad saying no, no, no. I've got 3.5 for one sibling and 3.5 for the other. Is that what he was saying?

Caller (119:30)

Oh, no, no, no, no. What he has, like I'd say to buy him out of this business is 3.5 million, like what I'd have to pay to get him and My mom like out. That's what I would value it at. Of course we haven't had evaluation the past two years, but.

George Kamel (119:45)

Yeah. What is it the business worth?

Caller (119:48)

So the business itself is probably worth about a million and a half. The real estate, the real estate is, was worth two. It's probably worth more like three, maybe three and a half now. So it could be more than three and a half total.

George Kamel (120:00)

And what does it cost?

Dr. John Deloney (120:01)

Cash flow.

Caller (120:02)

Cash flow. So the only people that take, you know of these partners that take salaries is my wife and I and we each take about $100,000 and then we do disbursements at the end of the year. But so cash flow after paying our salaries is about 500.

George Kamel (120:22)

Okay. And you're saying that three and a half million, they would agree that's a, that's fair amongst all parties as far.

Caller (120:28)

As a. I'm not, not saying that. I think that if I approach them possibly, I think if you, I think.

Dr. John Deloney (120:35)

If you're making a net after expenses of $500,000 a year, your valuation is pretty high.

Caller (120:43)

Yes, I think what it is is it's a reoccurring income and I don't want to get into too much details, but it is a kind of like subscription based, if you will. So it's kind of like you have people locked in and then you have long term custom, let's just say.

Dr. John Deloney (121:01)

But I mean even, I mean you're talking about 7x your, your net cash flow, right?

Caller (121:07)

Oh, the three again, the three and a half is, is including real estate.

George Kamel (121:12)

Okay, got it. Let's just pretend it's three and a half. Let's just walk this through an example and I'll tell you what I would do, what Dave Ramsey would do. We're not doing debt and you obviously don't have the money up front to pay for this, correct?

Caller (121:24)

No, no.

Caller (121:25)

And I again, not to say that he would want it all up front, but, but sure.

George Kamel (121:29)

Would they be willing to go, all right, we'll do 350k for 10 years is what you're going to pay us from this business?

Caller (121:37)

I think so. I don't know. They are getting older, so I'm not trying to be morbid, but I would say that 10 years may be a stretch, truthfully, unfortunately.

George Kamel (121:49)

So, yeah, well we, I think you just start playing with the numbers here and okay, here's what we could comfortably possibly do based on the actual revenue of the business to go, all right, we can do 400,000 over seven years.

Dr. John Deloney (122:00)

I would prefer it to be a percentage of your profit.

Caller (122:05)

I agree, I agree.

Dr. John Deloney (122:06)

And my hope would be that y' all do that and every year y' all can re. Reconcile. And so maybe you get down to where, let's say they last six years.

Caller (122:17)

And then at the end I just would have to pay the difference to siblings.

Dr. John Deloney (122:20)

You would pay it to a trust that would be dispersed to the siblings? That's right. At the agreed upon rate.

George Kamel (122:25)

And I would involve a lot of professionals at this point. I would not do handshake agreements. I would have a business valuation expert, a CPA and a state attorney. Get all of this in writing so that everyone's on the same page, siblings included.

Caller (122:37)

And, and that's my, my thing. I've been trying to work on this past three or four years. And again, my father's like, don't worry about, don't worry about it. And he's, he's a bare man. Don't get. I'm not thinking anything's going to happen like shady like that. But again, I'm just worried about the sibling.

George Kamel (122:52)

It's a relational drama outside of this.

Dr. John Deloney (122:54)

Have you talked to your siblings to tell them that you're working on it?

Caller (122:58)

So one brother, oldest brother, doesn't have any care. He's like, I don't care about it. He's like, I'll sign over, whatever. So anything that if I did have to pay him, he wouldn't want a payment. He's a, he's done pretty well in life. I guess this doesn't, isn't needed for him.

George Kamel (123:13)

I would make sure you get that in writing seven years from now.

Dr. John Deloney (123:16)

His wife may really want that.

Caller (123:18)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I agree. That's what. I don't see that being a problem. The other two, again, they're very nice people, but you know when stuff happens and they might say, oh, well, this is worth, you know, three and a half or whatever and you know, our portions worth this. And that's what I'm worried about. They have shown no interest in the business. They don't support. They never supported the idea or supported real estate in general.

Dr. John Deloney (123:43)

Sure. A perfect world as you sit down with your dad and say, I'd like to make you a three and a half million dollar offer again after a real evaluation, maybe two, that you take the average of a real evaluation, that you offer that to him and he says, no chance. I'll sell this to you for a million dollars.

Caller (124:01)

Yeah, well, I love that.

Dr. John Deloney (124:02)

Or for one point, whatever. And he may say, great, cool. But he May say, I'm not taking that much money. We're going to sign an agreement here, and then it's going to be based off net profit over the next 10 years. That way there's no debt. If the business goes into the hole, then you don't owe any money that year.

Caller (124:17)

Yeah, but.

Dr. John Deloney (124:18)

But if you, if you sign a. A note to a $400,000 a year that you're locked into a payment.

Caller (124:25)

Oh, yeah, no. And I don't. I don't like payments. The only thing that we owe is a. A small mortgage on our home. So again, we've been. We've been following Dave, and that's main. My main concern because I know that I could approach an SBA loan for something like this. I just don't want to.

Dr. John Deloney (124:38)

Yeah, don't do that.

George Kamel (124:40)

Don't do that when you introduce rent. So it's going to add pressure and stress to everything. And so that's the one thing I don't do, is do not touch debt to go into this plan. And I like the idea of a percentage of profits over time. And so I hope that you guys can come to an agreement on what's fair and equitable for all parties and you avoid the drama of the siblings being involved, make it very clear what they would get when mom and dad pass. Here's how this is going to go down.

Dr. John Deloney (125:07)

And I hate to be the bearer of BET bad news, but I'm going to be. If you have four siblings and one of those siblings had a really tight relationship with mom and dad, so much so that they invested a ton of money together. They. They were silent partners in a business together. I promise you, there is already a little bit of golden child syndrome. Oh, yeah, sure. Chip always gets fill in the blank. And so make no mistake, you are clearly a man of character trying to set this thing up so you preserve your relationships over time. I would expect mathematically that at one of your siblings, if not two, bundle up and try to start a fight after your parents pass. It wasn't fair. They didn't talk to us. He got more than. Whatever the thing will be. I hope that's not the case, but we're talking millions. It almost always is.

George Kamel (125:55)

Yeah.

Dr. John Deloney (125:56)

So just be ready for that.

George Kamel (125:57)

I've rarely seen one of these just go perfectly smooth and everyone's happy and nobody's upset and everyone thought it was fair.

Dr. John Deloney (126:03)

That's right.

George Kamel (126:03)

Yeah. And so the best thing you can do is get ahead of it, talk about it so much they're sick of you talking about it to where it's like, hey, I'm going to send you that email once a year about here's the agreement, here's the estate plan. And even Dave Ramsey does this with his own family every year. They say, here's the Jesus, if Dave dies meeting, here's what's going to happen with the estate. And so there's no questions.

Dr. John Deloney (126:23)

That's right.

George Kamel (126:23)

There will not be any arguments to be had because there's nothing to argue about.

Dr. John Deloney (126:27)

Yeah, Just, just, it's easy to say I don't care about that. I don't need that money. And then you find out, wait, I was going to get a million dollars. Yeah. Now that conversation changes.

George Kamel (126:36)

That puts this hour of the Ramsey show in the books. Remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace and that's to walk daily with the prince of peace, Christ Jesus.