Get Out of Survival Mode So You Can Finally Move Forward

Summary

The Ramsey Show: "Get Out of Survival Mode So You Can Finally Move Forward"

Date: December 4, 2025
Hosts: Dave Ramsey & George Kamel
Podcast Theme:
This episode dives into breaking out of financial "survival mode" and making tangible steps toward financial security and wealth-building. Dave, George, and the Ramsey team field live calls from listeners navigating debt, career transitions, difficult money habits, and investment decisions. The tone is supportive, practical, and at times deeply emotional, with the aim of inspiring listeners to take bold, informed action.

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Major Themes & Discussion Points

1. Moving from Survival Mode to Progress

• "The first rule of thumb is: take care of your household first." (Dave Ramsey, 03:18)
• Focus is placed on the vital need to budget for the essentials—food, housing, utilities, and transportation—before tackling debt.
• The “four walls” (food, shelter, transportation, utilities) concept is stressed as the bedrock for stability.
• Quote: “Once you’ve got survival, which is food, shelter, clothing, transportation, and utilities ... then we start working on clearing out the debt. But not until you’ve eaten and kept the lights on.” (Dave Ramsey, 03:57)

2. Emotional & Psychological Barriers to Financial Progress

• Recurrent theme of past trauma, poverty, and fear inhibiting decisive financial action—even when the math supports progress.
• Caller Virginia (Austin, TX): Struggles to part with savings to pay off debt due to her impoverished childhood.
  • Intervention: “Facts are your friends … the facts are: you’re not your mom. You make over 100 thousand dollars a year, and my husband has one of the most employable careers on the planet.” (Dave Ramsey, 91:24)
  • Encourages grounding oneself in current reality, not past fear.

3. Budgeting & Practical Steps

• Frequent recommendation of the EveryDollar app for budget control and a "written plan before the month begins."
• Several callers receive a complimentary premium subscription to help jumpstart their budgeting.
• Emphasis on intentionality and regularity in tracking expenses and income.

4. Multi-faceted Debt Scenarios

• Listener stories covered a wide spectrum:
  • Young guardians managing family debt (Michael, Jackson, MS)
  • Physicians and pharmacists tackling six-figure educational loans (Elizabeth, San Francisco; Hillary, Vermont)
  • Rental property and real estate investing dilemmas
  • A couple retiring and struggling to finish building a home

5. Dangers of Gambling & "Quick Wins"

• A father calls seeking advice on his son’s sports gambling habit.
  • Dave is emphatic: “FanDuel is a portal to hell ... the fastest-growing addiction destroying young men in their 20s in America ... It’s evil.” (Dave Ramsey, 14:18)
  • Firm advice: Don’t seek risk through gambling or short-term trading; focus on long-term wealth-building strategies.

6. Career and Major Life Transitions

• Dave and George provide guidance for callers facing crossroads:
  • Transitioning from athletics/school to career: Weighing stability, opportunity, and family location.
  • Young adults considering business ownership: Dave cautions thorough skills development before taking on a large business purchase.

7. Debt Freedom and Generosity

• Heartfelt debt-free scream with Mason & Katie (Parker, CO) — paid off $5.5 million in 3 years.
  • Quote: “Our goal as a couple is to just try to model that and encourage the people that we know to do the same and to experience that kind of freedom…” (Katie, 71:41)
  • Emphasis on giving, changing family trees, and inspiring others.

8. Investment Philosophy & Market Timing

• Caller asks: "Is now a bad time to invest in the stock market given that stocks are high?"
  • Dave debunks “market timing” fears with a history lesson and logic.
  • Quote: “There’s absolutely no data to indicate [that the market will stay down]. Data indicates the stock market has always gone up past where it is.” (Dave Ramsey, 56:01)
  • The point: Don’t let emotions keep you from deploying your money into long-term growth vehicles.

9. Parental Planning, Generational Wealth, and Children’s Future

• Guidance on college savings and gifting significant assets to children: prioritize building wealth in your own accounts, maintain control, then help your kids when they're ready and responsible.
• Caution against “bifurcating” assets prematurely in a child’s name due to risk and lack of control.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Survival Mode & Mindset

• “The bad news is you got some debt. The good news is you’re not afraid of hard work and you know how to make money ... I want you to get pissed off and attack it like your life depends on it.”
  (Dave Ramsey coaching Michael, Jackson, MS, 05:56)

On Sports Gambling

• “FanDuel is a portal to hell... DraftKings ain’t king of nothing except their own pocketbook. And they’re screwing an entire generation…”
  (Dave Ramsey, 14:18)

On Breaking the Chains of the Past

• “Facts are your friends. The facts are I’m not my mom … our kids are not in the same situation. We make over 100 thousand dollars a year.”
  (Dave Ramsey, 91:24)

Emotional Freedom in Debt Payoff

• “I never thought I'd say excited and debt in the same sentence...”
  (Elizabeth, San Francisco physician, 29:08)

Massive Debt-Free Success

• “Five and a half million dollars in the last three years.” (Mason, Colorado, 66:04)
• “Our goal as a couple is to just try to model that ... to encourage people ... to experience that kind of freedom...”
  (Katie, 71:41)

On Real Estate vs. Market Investments

• "Fixing up your home is not investing – it's fixing up your home."
  (Dave Ramsey, 119:25)

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Key Call Segments (Timestamps)

• Survival Mode, The Four Walls, and Budgeting — 03:18–08:27
• Sports Gambling/Career Risks for Young Adults — 11:00–18:59
• High-Income, High-Debt Physician (Elizabeth, SF) — 22:32–30:14
• Career Transition Advice (Solomon, Montana) — 32:44–39:10
• Massive Debt-Free Story: Mason & Katie — 65:38–74:49
• Investment Timing and Market Fears — 54:06–63:23
• Emotional Impact of Childhood Poverty (Virginia, Austin) — 86:47–94:51
• Parenting, College Funds, and Generational Wealth — 97:32–101:53

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Tone & Takeaways

• Tone: Direct, supportive, motivational, sometimes tough-love but always empathetic.
• Approach: Ramsey and George blend practical advice with a focus on emotional and psychological roadblocks. Real stories highlight that change is possible, regardless of past mistakes.
• Actionable Insights:
  • Prioritize essentials before debt; use a written budget.
  • Face emotional triggers with facts—your current reality, not fears from the past.
  • Treat any form of gambling or "shortcut" investing as highly dangerous.
  • Build wealth methodically, give generously, and seek professional guidance for investments and big decisions.

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For New Listeners

If you haven’t listened, this episode offers a practical, heartening blueprint for climbing out of financial survival mode—no matter your starting line. You’ll hear real struggles, tough conversations, and emotional breakthroughs. And you’ll see: anyone can change their family tree with focus, humility, and the willingness to do the work.

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For budgeting help and financial tools, Dave and the team recommend the free EveryDollar app, featured throughout this episode.

Transcript

[A]

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today.

Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey network and the Fair Winds Credit union studio, this is the Ramsey show. I'm Dave Ramsey. George Camel Ramsey personality number one best selling author is my co host today. Thank you for joining us America. We're so glad you're here. The phone number is 888-255-2225. The call is free and some say the advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. So you jump in, we'll help you out. It's what we're here for. Michael is in Jackson, Mississippi. Hey Michael, how are you?

[B]

I'm doing well, how are you?

[A]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[B]

Yes, sir. So I'm in a sticky situation in my life and I'm. I'm looking at a way to get out of it to do better for myself and my family.

[A]

Okay, good. How can we help?

[B]

Yes, Sir. So I'm 27, about the turn, 28. I have guardianship of my 17 year old brother after the past four years. I'm roughly $35,000 in debt with a lease, some credit card debt and a few other charge offs on my credit.

I'm pretty behind almost all my bills at this moment. I'm a door to door salesman and I'm.

I'm trying to find a way out, man.

[A]

Okay. Are you married?

[B]

No, sir, I'm not.

[A]

Okay. All right. And what are you making as a door to door salesman?

[B]

Been here for about three months now. My last month I've made $3,500.

It's the slow season at this moment.

[C]

What do you say?

[B]

Roofs? I'm a door to door salesman in the roofing industry.

[A]

Yeah. Not exactly a Christmas present. Many people buy in December, huh?

[B]

No, sir, not at all.

[A]

Yeah, if they buy a roof right now, it's because they really need one. Okay.

[B]

Yes, sir.

[A]

All right. Um, so you made 3,500 last month. What'd you make the month before?

[B]

Roughly $3,000. Yes.

[A]

Okay, good. Do they have any base for you at all or is it straight?

[B]

It's straight commission. They do have a, what's it called? A draw. A draw. Yes, sir, they do have a draw. It's based off of work orders that you get signed for. Every work order is $500.

But getting a work order signed is similar to getting a roof bought.

Yes, sir. And people look at that as a contract. It's hard to get by it, but not impossible.

[C]

What were you doing before that?

[B]

What were you doing four months ago before that? I was a car salesman at Toyota.

[A]

And you think you're gonna make more with this than that? Obviously, or you wouldn't have done it?

[B]

Yes, sir. Absolutely.

[A]

All right, cool. All right. You said you're 27?

[B]

Yes, sir.

[A]

Okay, good, Good. All right. So your first rule of thumb is take care of your household first.

Okay? And that means by food, not eating out, food for the refrigerator, and food for cooking. And that means take care of utilities, lights and water, heat, gasoline for your car, okay? That means pay your rent or your mortgage. How much is your rent?

[B]

850Amonth.

[A]

You pay your rent, you don't get behind on your rent, and you don't get behind on your food. You start with those things. You follow me?

[B]

Yes, sir.

[A]

Okay. And that we call that building the four walls of your house. Once you've got survival, which is food, shelter, clothing, transportation, and utilities. Once you've got survival done, then we start working on clearing out the debt.

But not until you've eaten and kept the lights on. Okay? And when you sit down and do a written budget before the month begins, do you know what you're going to get in December yet?

[B]

No, sir, I do not.

[A]

Okay. All right.

[B]

At minimum, I would say $3,000.

[A]

Okay. All right. So why don't we sit down. When you get off the phone, I'm gonna hook you up with the EveryDollar app, the expanded version that we're gonna pay for it. We're gonna give it to you free, okay? And get you started. I want you to sit down tonight and I want you to put $3,000 into that app. So you got $3,000 coming in. What are you gonna do with it? We're gonna be very intentional. And I just told you, food, lights, and water. Do those. You got enough to do all that, right? So now we don't have to worry about being homeless or hungry. And that sets your brain free to start working on. Okay. Now the rest of it's a stinking Monopoly game, okay? Once you know you've survived, so we get survival behind us, and now we can go play the Monopoly game. And then I want you to list your debts, smallest to largest, and any extra money, you pay, minimum payments on all of those. And if you have money after you paid minimum payments and covered your necessities, then you attack that smallest debt and pay it off as fast as you can. So, like, let's say February, you have a huge $5,000 month. I want you knocking out some of these little debts and getting them out of your life and cut up the credit cards. And you're living on a written plan before the month begins. And we're gonna walk with you and show you how to do it. Okay? I've been right where you are. I've been scared and confused. The bad news is you got some debt. The good news is you're not afraid of hard work and you know how to make money. And the good news is you're ready to learn. And the good news is your debt's not that bad. You can actually tear it apart. But I want you to get pissed off and attack it like your life depends on it.

[B]

Yes, sir.

[A]

And when you do that, you get wired up and fired up, man. You stick the stinking ball into the end zone and if somebody's in your way, you run over them. You understand what I'm saying?

[B]

Yes, sir. 100%.

[A]

That's it. And so you can do all this and we'll help you in the whole process.

[C]

And are you doing door to door sales, you know, 8 to 5, like when the sun goes down? Are you done.

[B]

As of right now? Yes sir. I did just today put in an application. I'm looking to pick up a second job. It's a warehouse job from seven at night until. Until finished. But I'm assuming about 12pm or 1 or 12am, you know.

[A]

Yeah, like a UPS or a FedEx job during Christmas here you can make some stinking money doing. And if you've got a place to stack that and you know where it's going, it makes that hard work easier. Hard work that you don't know where it's going is a pain in the butt.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But when you know, hey, I work that hour, I knock that bill out. I work that hour, I knock that next bill out. I'm gonna get my freaking life back, man. I'm tired of living like this. When you get that thing going, that's when everything changes for you.

[C]

And one year of that, man, you'll be celebrating your 29th birthday debt free. Debt free. If you do it this way, I.

[A]

Think you can because I think your sales are going to go up. Because here's the thing. A salesperson who knows where the money's going to go from the sale is an excited salesperson. A salesperson who's scared and desperate and is afraid they're not going to eat. They smell bad and a consumer can smell it a mile away. It's hard to make a sale. But when you're on fire, they want some of what you're burning with, man. And that changes everything. So just your attitude of attack on this will affect what, what happens on your sales. So I really do predict February may be the best month of your entire life. I think that's a very strong possibility if you're doing all these other things as a part of this program because now you got a reason for doing it. You pick it up and put it down. You're picking it up and putting it down, man.

[C]

And that personalized plan and every dollar, Michael, it's going to change everything. It's going to coach you just like we're doing right here. But 24, seven in your pocket. We're going to walk with you so you don't get stuck ever again.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely, dude. And you're a great guy, man. You take care of your little brother. Look at you, man. What a stud. Go get him, brother. We'll help you. If you need some more help, you call us back anytime. Hold on. Christian's gonna pick up. We'll get you signed up.

[B]

Foreign.

[D]

Hey, it's Rachel Cruz. The holidays are here, which means family time, giving back and remembering what the season is all about. And let's be real, it also means shopping, y'.

[E]

All.

[D]

If you're anything like me, December gets really busy and really expensive. It's harder to stay intentional with your spending. And that's why I love shopping on Amazon, especially this time of year. Named the lowest priced US online retailer for nine years running by Profitero, a third party analytics and research firm, Amazon's prices are up to 14% lower across top categories and beat competitors by up to 5% in key gift categories. Between amazing deals, stress free shopping and fast shipping, Amazon makes gift giving simpler, the holiday season a little brighter and helps me keep my budget in check. That allows me to get back to enjoying the season. What more could a busy mom ask for? So for more information about Amazon's low prices and easy, affordable holiday shopping, head to Amazon today.

[A]

It's that time of year. In a few weeks, we're going to be doing a special giving edition of the Ramsey show and we want to hear some giving stories from you about how you've given generously this season. Or maybe a story where you've received something. But this is a show about generosity to inspire generosity. This particular show is one of the most popular ones we do of the year. So we need some great generosity stories. Whether you were on the receiving end or the giving end. Go to ramseysolutions.com/put giving in the subject line. This show on giving is a Christmas time tradition. It comes up December 18th. So go ahead and send in your stuff now and we'll make you a part of the show. Jeff is with us in Chicago. Hi Jeff.

[B]

Hi there. Thanks for taking my call.

[A]

Sure. What's up?

[B]

Well, I've got a good news, bad news scenario. I have a 21 year old son who's a college junior and the good news is he's started to invest for the long term about six, nine months ago, start putting a little bit aside, has a portfolio, diversified long term portfolio. That's the good news. The bad news is he is also actively engaged in sports gambling. Like so many of his friends, maybe all of his 21 year olds, college friends have sports gambling apps and they take that frequently. Definitely every week, sometimes every day. And my point with him is that if you're going to be involved in that kind of risky speculative gambling.

[F]

App.

[B]

Thing every day, that instead take that energy and apply it to learn more about short term trading like futures and options. I trade futures, I trade options. It's a skill, it's an art, it's something that's always challenging. But I've learned more about finance and probabilities as a result of it. Not always a winner. But my point to him is gambling on sports is gambling by every definition. It's good that you have a long term portfolio, but as long as you're going to be you're open to the risk of loss, that you should be applying it to financial instruments and learning more about them instead of sports gambling. And the reason I can't communicate that is that the proper, the, the current conventional wisdom everywhere, like he's been reading Scott Galloway's book about long term investing is that you just buy things and hold them forever and that that's the right thing to do and the only thing to do. And that's the, that's the point where we're in disagreement. So my question is how do I convince him that he shouldn't be gambling on sports and if he's willing to risk money in that manner.

[A]

I follow your logic, but it's like.

We'Re choosing between two things he shouldn't be doing. A college student shouldn't be playing short term trading and a college student shouldn't be sports gambling, period.

So I don't really want to, I don't want him to take that energy and do anything with it except something completely that's good for him. Neither one of those things are something I want to train him to do long term. So I follow your logic. I get how you got there because you're playing in it. And that's okay.

You know, if that's what you choose to do. But I wouldn't any college student or any someone in their twenties that called me and said I'm sports betting, I would never tell them, instead, do short term trading. I would just say do neither. And so I'm going to fall more on the Galloway side of things, I guess, in your mind than you are. But I think I would just for a second, let's set the short term trading decision or discussion aside and say, hey. The fastest growing addiction that is destroying young men in their 20s in America, faster than anything I've ever seen in 30 years of doing this, is online sports gambling.

FanDuel is a portal to hell.

Draft kings ain't king of nothing except their own pocketbook. And they're screwing an entire generation of young men.

Because you don't win. That's why they can afford to buy ads on every stinking every. I mean, they're back to, back to back to back to back ads. Every time you turn on a sporting event. It's all I see is their crap. And no wonder they're spending billions of dollars. You know where they're getting that? It's out of your kid's freaking pocket because they're screwing an entire generation. This is evil stuff right here. And so I'd be talking to him like, this is cocaine, not like it's an alternative high risk investment. No, this is cocaine. You are screwing around with cocaine. You're screwing around with fentanyl, you're screwing around with crack and it's going to kill your little butt. You need to get away from this stuff. And if your friends are also stupid, they're doing it. Well, if all your friends jump off a cliff or you're going to jump off a cliff, that's the famous dad line, right? So I'm just going to drop that one. So anything I can do to get a young person or an old person to stay away from online sports gambling, it is the most addictive freaking thing I've ever seen. The number of people coming into our financial counselors around America sitting down with Ramsey counselors that their entire lives have been destroyed by this bull crap is unbelievable. It's the fastest growing addiction in America. Faster than cocaine, faster than drugs of any kind, faster even than porn. And porn is a really high, huge problem as well. With this age group and with any age group, but this age group in particular, they're getting destroyed by their online access to this absolute bullcrap. And George, you've got some actual numbers on this.

[C]

Yeah, well, I covered it in my book Breaking Free from Broke because I saw it. It's under the investing traps chapter because I saw it as people trying to shortcut their way to make a little bit of money and enjoy the entertainment at the same time. Which really worried me. To take the addictive nature of gambling, the ease of mobile apps, the bookies that stack the odds against you with this socially acceptable form of entertainment, quote, unquote. And so this is really scary to what it's doing to young men. And I don't know that this dad has the authority in the kid's life to tell him to delete the app.

[A]

No, I don't think he does.

[C]

So what it takes is truthfully and sadly, he might need to lose a bunch of money and get burned before he actually turns a corner. Or he needs to find new friends.

[A]

I'm seeing them lose marriages, I'm seeing them lose jobs, I'm seeing them bankrupted. I mean, I'm seeing them all. We're seeing just sad, sad, sad stories. And nobody's talking about it. Everybody's walking around grinning like betting on footballs, wonderful thing.

[C]

And it's a funny thing to joke about with your friends. If you won money or lost money, well.

[A]

And it's like a stinking golf or fishing story. You lie, you know, you lose more than you win, but you tell only times you won. You know, I caught, I caught a fish, but 17 times I didn't catch a fish. Shut up. So it's not cute, it's not funny, and there's no, you know. So, Jeff, I'm on your side. If I could figure out a way to get your son to quit doing it, I would. But I gotta tell you, he's creating habit patterns, neuro pathways in his brain that it may take him a decade to get out of. When your brain starts getting rewired to play this crap, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, this short term feedback loop thing, and you get your brain wired to do that. It is not conducive to building wealth. It is not conducive to building a high quality life.

[G]

Yeah.

[C]

What I would ask him is, hey, how much have you spent on these apps collectively? Make him add it up and then show him what it's actually costing him both in past and future tenses. That might convince him, if he's into long term investing, he might go, you know what? I could have turned that into ten grand when I graduate college instead of being broke. Or I could just have some fun and lose a bunch of money.

[A]

Yeah. These guys, they have got the algorithm. You're at such a disadvantage when you open up one of those apps because they have spent a half a billion dollars building the vis.

Building the feedback loops to where they know once you stick your toe in.

[C]

There and they lure you back in.

[A]

With another offer, suck you in.

[C]

Hey, here's a free bet on us. Come back in.

[A]

They are the best in the world and they're making billions of dollars at it.

And at the cost of an entire generation being screwed over. So, yeah, can you tell I'm a little pissed off about it? Yeah. This is evil. Straight up evil. It's greed and it's out of control. And if you work for FanDuel or you work for DraftKings and you don't like me, well, I'll get over that.

[C]

Guessing they're not going to be knocking on your door to be a sponsor, Dave.

[A]

Well, they have. And we said you got to be.

[C]

That's actually funny. They even.

[A]

You've got to be. Well, that just shows how stupid they are that they don't. You know, they don't. They're just buying ads everywhere. Anybody you know like, no, we're not putting that on. And we're not going to have anybody on here selling gold either. Good God, how stupid.

[C]

If you're watching this on YouTube, it probably got interrupted with a FanDuel ad. That's how aggressive they are. They want to be everywhere. In your face 24 7. It's exhausting.

[A]

Bad news, boys and girls. Bad news. Hope I wasn't unclear.

[D]

The holidays can come with a lot of pressure to spend. Family, friends, Secret Santa at the office, all the things. But y', all, this season should be about peace, not payments. That's a big reason why I love Fairwinds Credit Union. They share the Ramsey values of helping you reach your money goals without debt. And with the Fairwinds smart bundle, Ramsey fans get a no fee checking account, a high yield savings to grow your emergency fund, and the exclusive Ramsey Beweir debit card. It says debt is normal. Be weird right there on the front. So every time you use it, it's a reminder that you're doing your money differently. So this Christmas, skip the credit cards and celebrate progress, not payments. Spend with peace of mind, knowing that you're sticking to your budget. And staying debt free. And check out the Fairwinds Smart Bundle [e-mail] Ramsey and open up the Smart Bundle and grab your exclusive Ramsey Beware debit card. That's fairwinds.org Ramsey. Fair Winds is federally insured by the NCUA.

[A]

I'm officially a boomer. I'm officially a walking dad Joke. I do not understand the vernacular. It's Cyber Monday week.

That just sounds oxymoronic to me.

[C]

It's like birthday week. It's your birthday week.

[A]

Yeah, but it doesn't last a week. It's a day.

[C]

Well, we like to stretch things out.

[A]

I can tell. So we have Cyber Monday week and the deals are going big. We got hardcover books, audio books, assessments with prices as low as $6.99, which Ken Coleman said yesterday he's a little pissed off we're selling his book that cheap because he doesn't make much. That's good. He'll be okay. Poor Ken. Well, don't wait. These deals will end because the week will be over.

Sunday 7th December. Go to ramseysolutions.com store if you're watching on YouTube or click in the show Notes.

[C]

Don't miss out. You have a whole week to get this Cyber Monday deal. So don't miss out.

[A]

God almighty. Elizabeth's in San Francisco. Hey, Elizabeth, how are you?

[F]

Good, good. Appreciate you taking my call.

[A]

Sure. What's up?

[F]

So I'm relatively new to your program, and since I've been introduced to it, I had a lot of appreciation because the burden of my loans has been heavy for a long time. So I'm excited to have a method to apply to them. And what I have right now is $300,000 in loans. There's four of them, mostly student loan, however. So the third largest one.

Is not a student loan. It's from a certain program that my employer has where they. It's a no interest loan with a very specific payoff date for a down payment on a home. So my approach up until.

Being introduced to your program has been to put aside money every month for that. And so when that date approaches, which is four years from now, I will have that money.

[A]

And I was just curious how much. So your employer loaned you money interest free with a balloon payment for a down payment on a house.

[F]

No balloon payment. So they handed, they gave me $85,000 and they said, you have to hand this back in 10 years.

[A]

That's a balloon payment.

[F]

Oh, okay. I misunderstood. I assumed it would have, if at.

[A]

All, if it all Comes due at once. That's called a bloom payment. All right, so, okay, and so you have three. You have how many years left before you have to hand them $85,000?

[F]

4.

[A]

4 years. And how much do you have saved towards that?

[F]

My total savings account is 60,000, but I have 25,000 of that in a separate. I just kind of put it in a bucket every, you know, every month I put some money in that bucket.

[A]

Okay, so you have 60, but 25 of it's here marked just in the bucket. Okay.

[C]

Correct.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

And do you have any investments that are non retirement and money?

[F]

No.

[A]

Okay, so this is all your money. And what do you make?

[F]

370,000.

[A]

Good Lord. That's excellent. Good for you. What do you do?

[F]

I'm a physician.

[A]

Oh, okay, good. All right. Okay. How long have you been making that kind of money?

[F]

About 10 years. And my student loan debt was 500,000. It's down to.

It's ridiculous to even say it's down to, but it's down to 250,000.

[A]

Gotcha. Okay, cool. Okay.

[F]

So 250 actually less now, actually. Sorry. Yeah, it's about whatever. 300 minus 85,000.

[A]

So 215. 215, yeah.

[F]

215,215.

[A]

Okay. All right. And so. And you have 60 and 85 clears this mortgage problem.

[F]

Correct.

[A]

Okay.

[F]

Okay.

[C]

What's your smallest debt currently?

[A]

The 85.

[F]

So actually.

I had. So the student loan is in there in three different. And actually it's broken up because you.

[C]

Said it's the third largest. Is this down payment.

[F]

Yeah, exactly. I actually had more student loan debt than I listened to a couple of your programs and moved more money from savings over and squashed the smallest ones.

[A]

Good. So you're heading the right direction. Yeah. All right, so let's just pretend this. Let's pretend that making $370,000 that you are 100% debt free in 24 to 36 months.

[F]

Yeah, it would be amazing.

[A]

Well, it's only. I mean, I don't know what it takes you to live, kiddo, but you should be able to do that.

[F]

I think what I again, since learning your program, I'm going to stop. I'm going to stop my pause retirement and then I'll be able to score squash. I'll be able to squash, you know.

[A]

But if we put 150, if we put 150 out of your 370 on debt times two years, that would pay off 300, right?

[F]

Right.

[A]

Correct. Which means you only have $270,000 a year to live on.

[F]

Gosh, when you put it that way, it really does sound like, wah.

[A]

I really want you to be. I really want you to be done with this. In two years, we've got some money. We've even got a little more money we can throw at the thing. Okay. So you're, you're, you've been walking towards what we teach very steadily. And as you've learned more, you've gotten more comfortable. And so I'm going to lay out a budget that is.

$25,000 a month going towards debt.

[F]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[A]

No, no, I'm sorry. Let me do 12, 5, 12, 5, 12, 5,. 12, 5 going towards debt. Because that's two years. In two years you'd be done.

[F]

Okay.

[A]

All right. And once I lay that out.

What we normally tell people, and you've been listening, so you already know, this is to have $1,000 in your savings, which would put 59 towards these debts. You've already done some of that, but you didn't quite get enough belief yet to go all the way. It might take you a couple months to get to there. Cause this is all a little fresh for you, a little new for you, and I'm okay with that.

But if you can really start to see.

10 to $15,000 a month going off these debts, you're not gonna be as scared being without a big savings account.

[F]

Right? Right.

[A]

And let me tell you something. That 85,000, because it's attached to your employer and it's attached to your home, even though it's interest free, is hovering around in the back of your head like a hatchet.

[C]

It's not stress free or risk free.

[F]

Yeah. This is why I appreciate you so much. I feel like there's so few people would say that. And I appreciate it because I feel it.

[A]

Oh, you do feel it. I would feel it. My stomach's kind of getting knotted up, and it's not mine, you know, so I can see how that. Because there's so many different variables that touch points in your life that are very important. House, job, career, all that that are tied to this one thing. And yet, you know, oh, it's interest free. I'll just, you know. No, no, no, no, no. To get rid of that thing. So list your debts. Smallest to largest, start throwing 10 to $15,000 a month at them. And as soon as you get up the courage, take a whole bunch of that 60 and throw at them.

[F]

Okay? Yep. Okay. I'm excited. I never thought I'd say excited. And Debt in the same sentence, when you get.

[A]

I'm excited because the debt is leaving. That's why I would say it in the same sentence.

[C]

But yeah, we're excited for you because the math is very hopeful here. Your income is incredible. So if you can stop living like a doctor for just like a year or two, you're gonna be really living after that for the rest of your life.

[A]

You got no payments and you make 370. And you're used to living like this. Oh, my gosh, girl, you'll be able to do anything you want to do. So what type of practice? What type of practice are you in?

[F]

Emergency. Wow.

[A]

Good for you.

[F]

I work for the money.

[A]

You do work for the money. That's serious, serious trauma, stress and everything else. Yeah.

[C]

Now it's time to treat this debt like an emergency.

[A]

Yeah. There you go. Hey, that. Listen, you're going to get this. You're going to knock it out. I'm proud of you. And I'll give you one last prediction, Elizabeth, and that is that the more you get down into this and the more you see it is working, the more you're going to turn up the intensity. And so I think you're going to be done even faster than two years.

[C]

I think the income is going to go up and her expenses are going to go down.

[A]

Yeah. I think she's just going to say, I'm getting such a high off of paying off debt that I'm going to do. I'm going to just crunch it and crunch it and punch it and punch it. And, man, when you do that, it's just. But you can't feel that today until you feel it. So once you get in there, though, and it starts moving, when it goes.

[C]

From 300 down to 200, then it's 99. Oh, my goodness.

[A]

You're going to be. I remember the first time I ran a half marathon, and I remember turning the corner and there was a half mile to go out of the 13.2, but you could see the tape on the finish line. And I just run 12 miles, and yet I found somewhere down inside. Cause you could see the end. And I was able to sprint your.

[C]

Body, just your body and your brain goes.

[A]

I was able to go kick it in for a half a mile, but you could see it. You could see the end. And then there's more in the tank than you believed you had.

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Solomon is in Montana. Hi, Solomon. How are you?

[B]

I'm doing good, Dave. How are you?

[A]

Better than I deserve, sir, how can I help you?

[B]

Currently, I'm at a crossroads in my life where things can go a lot of different ways, and I'm just looking for guidance on what you would do in my situation.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What's your situation?

[B]

So I'm currently ending my football career. I spent eight years in college on scholarship.

Seven at USC and then one over here at the University of Montana. And along that time, I got my undergraduate degree and my master's degree, and I got married and had two sons. But I'm stuck on deciding whether or not to stay here in Montana, where I love it and we found a good church. But I have a lot less connections out here compared to Utah, where a lot of my family is and where I have a lot of connections. And on close to the church out there that we were attending to for a little bit.

[A]

Okay.

Are you in a metro area in Montana?

[B]

Yeah, so I'm in Missoula right now.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's about like a hundred thousand people.

[A]

So it's big enough. What are you wanting to do? What's your. What's your career goal?

[B]

So I'd like to make use of my education, and I have my undergraduate degree in business administration and my project or master's degrees in project management, and I'd want to do something with that in construction. And I've been trying to look for jobs in both Utah and Montana, but, man, it's hard to get a job out here, especially with no experience, you know? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[C]

Have you talked to anyone in those fields or even in the project management field?

[B]

Yeah, I've been Networking a lot. And I have a strong connection to one of the biggest construction companies in Salt Lake through one of my uncles who's married in. But yeah, I mean, I just. Salt Lake, it's. It's a hub. It's huge, mean. And out here in Montana, it's harder to make connections, but the connections you do make are a lot stronger. So I've been trying to network out here, but it seems a lot harder.

[A]

How are you making a living today, sir?

[B]

Scholarship. They usually give you a monthly stipend.

[A]

And.

[C]

You'Re breaking up on us.

[A]

Yeah, I didn't get the last part. I heard stipend and then that's all we heard. Are you still there?

[B]

Yeah, I'm still here.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So normally we get a monthly stipend and that's all I've been living off of the past eight years.

[C]

Is your wife working outside the home?

[B]

No, she stay at home full time. We have a 22 month old and a 6 month old. Wow.

[C]

What's the stipend?

[A]

Every month.

[C]

How much are you guys living on?

[B]

About 1500.

[C]

You're living off of 1,500amonth? Yeah.

[B]

Plus some EBT food stamps.

[A]

Okay, so here's the thing.

You obviously want to stay in Montana. All of your verbiage and your sentence structures are saying that. But you also know that it's probably not going to happen because you're probably not going to land a good job there with the limited connections and the small area. So it may be that to start your career out after college, your first job after college, which is what we're talking about, that you end up in a major metro area like your Salt Lake gig, you go take that for a few years and then you make connections across the construction industry. You get.

Some experience under your belt, and you may or may not move back to Montana someday.

But for now, probably to take advantage of the education that you've got and actually make a good living for your family because we just don't want EBT to be in your future. Man, that's just silly.

[C]

Yeah, I wouldn't stay on the poverty line because I like my church.

[A]

Yeah. Or because I like Montana. Either one. So no, I think you go get a job right now, as soon as possible and take that. And there's nothing evil about either one of these things. If you can get a good job there in Montana, take it. But if you can't take Salt Lake City and get your butt in a car and go. And you can, you know, you got the rest of your life to do stuff. There's no rule that says you have to stay just because you went there. You can go over there and it's an adventure. And you know, we're going to give this two or three years. Just put a number on the calendar. We're going to give it three years. We're going to go over and work our tail off for three years. Make some money for the first time in my life, build up my tool belt of experience and then I can decide where I want to live and I can decide how. Maybe you want to open up your own thing someday. I don't know. And then you can start doing that. But for today, it's time to. For the sake of your family and your sanity and your pocketbook, it's time to go make some money as a result of this. And that's not greed. You've poured your whole life into football and into getting this advanced education. Now for God's sakes, go use it. It, you know, go do something with it and get the most out of it. Squeeze it, squeeze it to where every drop of juice comes out of it. And that's a good thing for you. It's a good start to life for you. So, yeah, I'm taking if you can't. You know, you got two weeks. You don't land something in Montana. I want you to land something in Salt Lake and be gone you got two weeks.

[C]

That might be an entry level project, man. I mean, management job that's not in construction right now. But you need some experience in order to make that final move.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's gonna be. You might have to swallow your pride a little bit and go. I have a master's project management. I deserve this.

[A]

But you've never done anything yet. Yeah. So yeah, go, go, go get her done that. That's what I would do. Austin is in New Orleans. Hi, Austin. How are you?

[B]

I'm doing great today, guys. How about yourself?

[A]

Better than I deserve. How can we help?

[B]

Well, guys, I was hoping to get some strategy advice from you all on Deb. So just to kind of give you a 30,000 foot view. My wife and I currently have a net worth of approximately 650,000 and we currently have debts of 198,000, which is spread across four rental property mortgages.

[A]

So your personal residence is paid for?

[B]

Yes. We're in the fortunate situation where we have a home that's held in trust that we will inherit whenever my parents pass away.

[A]

And that's where you're.

[B]

That house is Correct. That house is free and clear.

[A]

Okay, cool. That's cool. All right. And what's your household income?

[B]

Approximately 165k gross.

[A]

Okay, so the only debt you have are these are three rent or four rentals.

[B]

Correct. So we have four rentals, one of them is paid for, and then we have mortgages on the remaining three.

[A]

Okay, that's your only debt, 200 grand?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Okay, cool. All right. I guess you got two options, right? I mean, it's a baby step six affair. So you need to be getting. You need to have three to six months set aside of expenses, be putting 15% of your income away towards retirement. And money that you find above that is baby step six. You begin to pay off real estate. It's usually the home we're talking about, but in this case it's real estate. I'm going to list them smallest to largest and pay them off. How quickly can you pay off 200,000 making 165?

I don't know.

[B]

We haven't done the math on that yet. But that does not. That 165 does not include the rental income that we're bringing in from them. So currently we bring in 4,750amonth in rent. And then to cover our PITI for those properties, we're looking at about 25 to 2,600amonth.

[A]

So we've got about the time you have vacancy and expenses. You're not making any money. Yeah. Okay.

[B]

We end up clearing about 1500amonth after we set aside money for maintenance, capex, et cetera.

[A]

Yeah, it's not. Yeah, still not. You're not. That's not moving the needle towards. That's 18 grand a year. You owe 200. That's not. Okay, so I'm probably looking at those four properties and going, which one do I like the least?

Selling it and dumping all of its equity and getting rid of its debt. If it, if it's one of them that has debt and dumping all of it. To accelerate this, because I would rather you have a program that you're gonna get out of debt faster than you are with this program. You don't have enough money to throw at 200 to get out of debt fast enough to suit me, I would want to be out of debt in three to five years.

[C]

If I'm you 50 grand a year, you're done in four years. And if you sell one, it's done even faster.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I think that's the plan. You gotta be at that. That's a good point. You know, 50 grand a year is four. That's the way to do it.

[C]

If you can't do that, I think selling one is a good move.

[A]

Yeah, agree. That's a perfect move.

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Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fairway Credit Union studio, I'm Dave Ramsey. George Camel Ramsey, personality number one best selling author, is my co host. Today Catherine is in Reno. Hi, Kathryn, how are you?

[F]

Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm great, thank you.

[A]

Good. How can we help?

[F]

Well, my husband and I retired in 22 and we were going to build our house from the ground up. The first year we lived in a trailer as we were putting in the well and bringing in electricity and laying the foundation. And it's now three and a half years, almost four years later and we still can't get in the house because he's afraid to take money out of the 401k to hire people to help him.

[C]

So you're still in the trailer?

[F]

No, we are not still in the trailer. We were able to do that for one year and then my husband said no more. We're renting an apartment in Reno.

[C]

Okay. And what's going to cost to finish this project?

[F]

I figure it's going to cost between 1 and 150 to finish the house.

[A]

How much is in your 401k?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How much is in your 401K?

[F]

700,000.

[A]

Okay. And how old are you guys?

[F]

He is 71. I am 69.

[A]

Yes. You should pull out 150 and finish it immediately.

[F]

Thank you. I just want to sit on my front porch and have coffee with him in the morning. It's time.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I mean, this is. This was a bad plan.

[F]

Yeah. It sounded good, and we were.

[A]

It didn't sound good because you didn't have a plan to get the house done in a reasonable period of time. It's not. It's. It's hard on a house to not get finished.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

If it's not, you know, you got to get the thing in the dryer, it starts rotting down on you.

[B]

You.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you guys been dragged Button along for three years on this.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That. This was a bad plan from the start, and so. But now we're. That. Now we're where we are. For God's sakes, let's get it finished. It's a small percentage of your overall life, and you're gonna. You're not losing the money. You're just investing it in real estate instead of 401k right now. It's not gonna create an income there. Where? In the house. But it's also going to get rid of the rent.

[F]

Yes. Oh, yes. That's huge.

[C]

How have you guys been living so far? On what income?

[F]

He has a pension and Social Security.

[C]

And so you haven't even touched the 401k since you've been retired.

[F]

Yes, that's correct.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So if you continue down that path, even the money that's left in the 401k would double after about seven years.

[F]

Yeah, that would be.

[C]

You're 76 and you're sitting there with, you know, a million dollars. If you leave 500 in there and it doubles. Yeah, that's a pretty good life.

[F]

So much better now. Thank you, guys.

[C]

I hope he's convinced. That's the big question. Is he going to go along with this?

[F]

Yeah, I think he will. I think he's. He's getting tired of it, too. So it just, you know, it just took him getting tired of it all for me to, you know, want to ask.

[A]

Well, he had this picture in his mind of being able to build this house with his own hands, and he didn't understand how hard it was going to be and how long it was going to take.

[F]

That's very true.

[A]

And now that. So we're kind of giving up that little macho dream there.

[F]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And just finish it. So mama's got a place to drink her coffee, for God's sakes. He's tired. I haven't been doing this but about four or five minutes. I'm tired.

[C]

Yeah. I'm half his age, and I don't have the energy for the this, so I'm impressed he even attempted it.

[A]

Hillary's in Vermont. Hi, Hillary. How are you?

[F]

Hi. I'm good. How are you?

[A]

Better than I deserve. How can we help?

[F]

Well, so I'm in the process of trying to pay off student loans, and between, like, my federal loans, there's about, like, there was 21 to start with.

[A]

How much?

[F]

But now there's 18.

[A]

There are 21 loans?

Yeah, 21 loans. How much do you owe, Hillary?

[F]

326,000.

[A]

Say that again.

[F]

320.

[A]

326,000. So are you a doctor or a lawyer?

[F]

Pharmacist.

[A]

A pharmacist, yeah. Wow. So you're making 120?

[F]

I make about 150.

[A]

Good. Okay. Are you single?

[F]

I am. I'm a single mom of two. Yeah.

[A]

How old are you?

[F]

I'm 31.

[A]

Are you married? No. You said you're a single mom. You're not married. You told me that. Okay. All right.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So has the balance grown because of interest? What's. What's going on here? You've just been making minimum payments.

[F]

So I graduated in 2020, and I paid off through that. I had, like, two separate loans. So I have paid off all my previous private loans, which was 70,000, and then I have my federal ones, which have been on forbearance and are still in the middle of forbearance, but I've been paying on them.

Well, I've been paying on them since, like, the other one got paid off, but now the interest. And I tried to pay off as much as I could before the interest started, but now the interest is starting, and I can't seem to figure paying off.

[A]

Okay, so let's pretend that you lived on 100,000 and you put 50,000 towards this.

You've not been doing anywhere near that.

[F]

What, this past year I put, like, this past year I was trying to put towards my retirement and, like, plan for my retirement, because I don't want to.

[C]

Like, that's a competing goal. You either want to get out of debt or invest. You can't do both at once and make progress.

[A]

Yeah. So if you stop retirement and you stop everything and you live on beans and rice and you attack these student loans like your life depended on it, could you put 100 towards them?

[F]

Probably not. 100 with, like, my kids are 7 and 3, so I have daycare, but once, like, they're no longer in like full time daycare. My littlest isn't in full time daycare than I can. But like I could definitely put like at least the 23,000 plus other amount that I've been. So I could probably put around 40 to maybe 50,000.

[A]

Yeah, I want you to. Okay, let's go. Let's get it to 75, which is a four year plan.

[F]

So within that though, I was trying to pay off, like I mentioned, they're separated between 21 different loans.

[A]

Yeah. You list them smallest to largest, list them smallest to largest. Pay minimum payments on everything but the little one. But I want you putting $75,000 a year towards debt.

And if you're putting 75,000 towards debt.

Zero, nothing towards retirement. You're broke.

You have got to do something different. You've got to attack these student loans to get rid of them. They're not a pet and they're an ugly zoo animal.

Yeah, you got. I mean, you got completely screwed on your education. You paid like five times more than you should have to become a pharmacist.

[F]

Mm.

[A]

You know that, right?

[F]

Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure why it ended up being so much, but yes, I know.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not sure either because it shouldn't have been anywhere near, you know, 400 and something thousand dollars to become a freaking pharmacist. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. All right, now, now, anyway, we're where we are. If you do 75 times 4, that's 300.

Four years. So eventually 100% debt free.

[C]

The goal here is to make more payments than the interest is accruing, so the balance goes down. That's the goal. And right now you haven't been putting enough toward it in order to make that happen. So we're telling you, pause investing, pause everything. Throw all of your energy towards that smallest debt so that you can begin to make sure traction.

[A]

Just $75,000 a year, $6,000 a month plus 6,500amonth. Okay. And that just lay out your budget to do that.

[F]

Hold on.

[A]

We'll get you signed up on every dollar and it'll help you walk through this. But you're going to have to tighten the screws down and knock it out. Otherwise this is going to just keep staying a death cycle on you.

[H]

This episode is sponsored by Better Help. All right. The holidays are here. And the holidays are full of traditions. Some of these traditions we love. Some of these traditions we just tolerate in addition to the traditions this time of year can also bring a lot of noise, pressure, and even loneliness. Maybe this is your cue this year to slow down and ask yourself, what really matters to me right now? And moving forward, therapy gives you space to do just that, to think, to breathe, and to make room for peace. And if you're thinking about therapy, I want you to check out my friends at Better Help. They've got more than 30,000 licensed therapists, and they've helped over 5 million people worldwide. With an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 stars, BetterHelp is totally online, so it fits around your schedule even during the chaotic holiday times. You just get online and answer a few questions, and BetterHelp will match you with someone who fits your needs. And if the therapist isn't the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time for no extra cost. This month, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Visit betterhelp.comramsey to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp.

Ramsey.

[A]

The Ramsey Show Question of the Day is sponsored by why Refi? You can't change the past, but you can change your next mode. Why Refi helps people with defaulted private student loans refinance to a payment that fits their budget. Visit yrefi.com Ramsey that's the letter y r e f y.com Ramsey not in all states. Our question of the day today comes in by voicemail. So, Kelly, give it a play.

[F]

Hi. I have a question about jumping into investing at this time when stocks are trading so high. I have about $100,000 that I'm looking to invest, but I'm wondering if everything is so high, if this is a bad time to jump in, am I just going to lose money? I'm a little bit paralyzed with regard to what to do with this money. It is all I have. I have no debt. I don't have a ton of property or anything. So this is my retirement savings at 65. Thank you.

[A]

Wow. Okay. Well, it's a good question. Thank you for calling in with that. We would tell you to sit down with a good Rams SmartVestor Pro, someone that we recommend in the investing world and have a good talk with them and start to understand your options. But I can pan back a little bit and we can talk about the question in general. All right.

In general, is it a good time to invest because the market's high? That's Sue's question. Right. And so if you take $100,000 and you're afraid to put it in now because the market's high, you could lose money. That assumes that makes the. What you're saying is.

If you really believe that, what you're saying is, is that the stock market is never going to go up past where it is.

And there's absolutely no data to indicate that. Data that indicates that the stock market has always gone up past where it is. Like always. Sometimes it dips down, but then it goes back up past where it was 100% of the time. It has done that so far. Okay, we've had some dips, but it always has returned and gone past where it was before.

And so the only way that your fear comes true is if it goes down and stays down, which is the first time it would have ever happened in history.

And what you're saying then is that the best and brightest companies in America that are publicly traded names like Home Depot or Dell or Apple or McDonald's or Coca Cola.

Names like that are not going to make more money in the next few years. They're going to make less money than they've ever made in history as a group.

See, this is very unlikely. So I am 65. If I had $100,000 extra to put into something right now, I would not hesitate to put it all in the stock market in good growth stock mutual funds that have long track records. Today I do it by nightfall. And I wouldn't even blink. Wouldn't bother me a bit, even if it was my last hundred thousand. Now, I'm not saying, sue, you should do that because you have some fears and those fears need to. The way those fears go away is with a little bit of basic history and knowledge of the stock market. That's why you need to meet with a good advisor. Yeah.

[C]

There's a few questions here. Number one, should I invest when the stock market's high? Yes. Can you retire off of $100,000? No, I don't think so. And so I hope you have other income outside of that. But if you just pull up Google S&P510 year, you'll see it go up and to the right and you'll see some scary dips. But if you go back to, you know, 2022, you'll see an all time high of $4,700. Well, right now it's trading at over $6,800.

[A]

60. Yeah.

[C]

1600 points. And so what you'll see is there is an all time high every few years. And so you're actually buying it on sale today because if you look at 2029, it's probably going to be trading higher than it is in 2025. So that'll give you some hope if you pan back like Dave's talking about and get that perspective. And a SmartVestor Pro can help with that.

[A]

Yeah, you can look at it and see the, see how the market moves. The s and P500 is an index. That is the top 500 stocks on the stock market. And that basically is the stock of the New York Stock Exchange. Okay. So it basically is the stock market. And so if you follow that, you can tell what the stock market has done. The news often reports the Dow Jones Industrial Average, which is also an index, but it's just a handful of 30 or 35 stocks. It's not got anything. This has got the 500 largest companies. So it is the baseline of what we call the stock market market, the s and P500. So if you look at that and you can say, okay, what is the stock market trading? Is it a bubble? Is it an illusion? There's no indication that it is. Because every time there has been a dip that someone calls a bubble or something, the market has returned. Because what we're saying here, it's not some. This is not a fairy tale. It's not some kind of guy behind the curtain like the wizard of Oz or something, Right? This is actual companies. Home Depot. Does Home depot make money? McDonald's, do they make money? Do they make a profit? Dell Computers, Apple Computers, do they make a profit? And that's the stock you're investing in. A stock is a share of ownership. So if you're one of the owners of a company that's making a profit, your ownership share goes up in value. That's a share of stock. It goes up in value. And so when you're buying a mutual fund, it's got 90 to 200, Home Depot, Dell and Apples in it. Exxon. Is Exxon making a profit, you think, and better believe it.

You haven't filled up your car lately, have you? You bet these people are making a profit. You can bet some of them are. Some of them losing money? Yeah, a couple of them are. But the biggest, these companies as a group represent the, you know, a big chunk of the American economy. And so in general, are these companies going up to the in value because they're making a profit and growing. And in general, yes. And in general, they always have. As a matter of fact, for 70, 80 years, the S&P 500 has averaged about 11.8% rate of return per year. That's the average, which Also means some years it was less, some years it was more. That's where we get averages from. Y' all remember the sixth grade, right? And that's where we learned how to average out something. And so that's. You can pull these things up, look at on the Internet real quick. But sit down with someone that can walk you through and you get comfortable. You don't do it because a couple of dudes on a podcast said do it. You sit down and you use your brain to understand something you never understood before. And then you go, wow, okay, so, George, here's an interesting thing. I never understood this, but there's something maybe psychological about it. I don't know. The stock market feels far away, sophisticated, and.

I can't.

Get my emotions around the technicalities of it to feel whether it's going to go up or not.

But you buy a home and you have absolutely zero.

Guarantee that it's going to go up in value. And people don't think a heartbeat. They don't even think a heart. They don't sit and go, I don't know, if I buy, if I bought a $400,000 home, would it go up in value? People don't think that. It does not even enter people's minds. They go, of course it's going to go up in value, because that $400,000 house, I remember 20 minutes ago it was 300,000, and I remember 45 minutes ago it was 100,000, you know, and so I remember it. But I guess because we walk around in the midst of the brick and mortar and we watch this, you know, if you're like 30 years old, you've had 10 years as an adult watching real estate go up. If you're 65, for God's sakes, you know, dinosaurs in your backyard, you know, so, you know, you've been watching real estate go up, and so you have this historical data just kind of stored in your head, although you don't have the actual math, but you feel very safe with real estate.

[C]

It's physical. You can see it and touch it. And the stock market is just charts, graphs.

[A]

It's like, woo.

[C]

It's green and red on the news. That's all I know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Talking heads are saying it went up, talking heads are saying it went down. And so it doesn't feel as real. And I don't feel as connected to the stock market like I do my own home.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

As it should be. But I still invest in the stock market.

[A]

The interesting thing is they're both, you're buying both based on historical data. Has it gone up in value in history? Am I going to lose my butt based on what it did in history? You're buying both of them based on the data. But people are just so much more comfortable with a home. And I'm glad. I'm glad they're buying homes.

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In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt free stage. Mason and Katie are with us. Hey guys. How are you?

[E]

What's up, Dave? We are hype level 100.

[A]

I love it. Welcome. Good to have you. Where do you guys live?

[E]

Parker, Colorado. It's about 30 minutes south of Denver.

[A]

Got it. Cool. Well, welcome to Nashville.

[I]

Thank you.

[A]

Good to have you. And here to do a debt free scream. I love it. How much have you guys paid off off?

[E]

It's five and a half million dollars in the last three years.

[A]

Oh my God.

[C]

That might be a record for me personally, from what I've heard.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. Okay, there's a story here. So what is your range of income, pray tell, during that time?

[E]

Yeah, well, before I. I'll answer that, I want to thank you. This is a bigger deal than we can ever express. I'm actually almost in tears.

[A]

Okay.

[E]

20 years ago, I didn't expect to cry. This is crazy. 20 years ago I was introduced to you. I had a buddy, he was getting married and the FPU was at our church and we Were stuck in the proverbial three hour ski traffic coming home and he popped in the CDs and I'm like live on less than you make and save and pay off debt. This guy's a freaking genius. And so I started just inundating myself with it for two to three months. I was single at the time and God just absolutely gripped my heart. I've since become a financial advisor and the long story short is because of everything that you guys have done for years and I met my now wife three years after that. I've been a financial advisor ever since. I was an ELP for almost five years in the Denver area. So this is more than just a moment to us. We've been leading it at our churches for 15, 16 years. FPU.

[A]

Thank you.

[E]

We got four baby girls.

[A]

Love it.

[E]

So I mean I'm hyper emotional. We're hyper emotional. But, but the deepest of thank yous. You literally changed the trajectory of my life. Which then turned into our lives, our girls lives, our faith community, everybody, our team. We got team 10 people that work at our company now. I mean it's, it's rippling because of what God did through you. So that's why I'm choked up and that's why we're super hyped. Trying to tamper it down. But I'm over the moon. We're over the moon.

[A]

So that's wild. Thank you very much and King, thank you for leading the class all those years and all the people you've helped. That's absolutely incredible. So what was five and a half million dollars?

[E]

Yeah. So the other long story short is I, when we got married, we came back with $63 in our bank account from our honeymoon. So we were broke as a joke. I was working two and three jobs and I started the path of. I gave myself one year to be a financial advisor. She was working her full time job making 40, 45 at the time. We finished paying off our debts. I think it was the fox business show. So 15 something years ago we were on there.

[I]

Our consumer debt.

[E]

Our consumer debt. Yeah, her paid off her last student loan. Never had consumer debt since then. And buying a house and then another house and then our third house. So the, the everything grew over that time just above and beyond anything I could have ever imagined with what God did. In our business we're the sole owners. But then in the last three years, the business revenue has been between two and a half and four and a half million dollars. And at any given time it's 15 to 25% of that is going to staff and rent and all the things. And then we always had our mortgage at about that total number is about half and half with our mortgage. And then the other half is. Were two retiring advisors sold their book to me. So it's not consumer debt. We didn't go take out more debt. And so it's kind of like working for free. So that was on a five year note. We paid it up off two weeks ago in three years. The house we put on a 10 year. We paid it off two weeks ago in three years. So that's the long story short.

[A]

So what's the house worth?

[E]

About 4 million now.

[A]

I love it. Congratulations, you guys. I'm so proud of y'.

[F]

All.

[I]

Thank you.

[A]

You have absolutely killed it. Yeah, very cool. Okay, tell me about the sweatshirt. I like it. God over money.

[E]

That's right. I wear these types of things all the time. It's a Christian group. It's just one of their modern autos got over money. And so I'm always wearing stuff like this. It felt fitting for what our lives are all about and, and the faith principles and. Yeah, the Bible teaches. So felt right. That's why I'm wearing it.

[A]

Yeah, it fits in around here. You're right. You're right. No question about it.

[C]

Find a financial advisor who decided to pay off his mortgage. That's rare.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

In its own right.

[E]

It is shocking.

[A]

And then where's the sweatshirt saying God over money. Yeah, that's good. That's beautiful. These are two good things right here. So excellent job. So now the books of business are clear. The house is clear. All these years you've been teaching this, did it feel different than you thought it was going to?

[E]

Yes and no. Because I've had so many clients that have paid it off and I've kind of like lived vicariously through that. And I've listened to this show, you know, we countless times led the class. But also when it hits like today.

[A]

Yeah, but when it happened to you.

[E]

Today is our first day that we were supposed to have our mortgage payment zapped today. And so it's also fitting that we're here because it didn't get zapped out today.

[A]

So.

[E]

So it's going to sink in this month and next month and. And so yeah, it's somewhat as expected. And it's also sinking in as we speak because I'm like, wait, it's, it's not coming out of our account today.

[I]

I will say I thought that when we went to the bank and we. We were all excited, and we had our big check, and we thought they were going to maybe have confetti cannons and throw us a party, but it's pretty somber, so.

[A]

The bank is not happy. They're not happy that you're not.

[C]

You got to bring your own soundtrack.

[I]

That's what we did.

[E]

We made it fun by ourselves. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, that's incredible.

[A]

Well, this is a mess in their parking lot.

[E]

Yeah, that's right. You guys get it. You know, this is good.

[A]

This is good.

[E]

The bank didn't get it.

[A]

No, they're not gonna get it.

[C]

So what's next for you guys? You're still so young. You got your whole life ahead of you. What do you do now?

[E]

Outrageous. Giving even more than we've been doing. Baby step seven to the fullest. And, you know, it's. I mean, that's. That's the short answer. It's that simple. And. And just we. We teach and, you know, we basically Dave Ramsey people's lives, as we kind of jokingly say professionally. So it's going to keep serving and pouring in like we've always done.

[I]

Yeah. And I just. I just have to say to God, be all the glory. And you guys are so amazing. And ultimately, you're just teaching biblical principles. So our goal as a couple is to just try to model that and encourage the people that we know to do the same and to experience that kind of freedom that you guys have just. It's seeded into our lives. I only went to Financial Peace University when we were dating to impress him. I didn't really care. But now I'm just eternally grateful for the trajectory that it set us on. And we actually debated doing this because we didn't want it to seem, I don't know, showy or anything like that. But then we ultimately were like, this is about inspiring other people to just get rid of the chains, you know, and experience. Experience freedom. And so we plan to just give as generously as possible to continue doing that, to make that part of our legacy, to instill that in our four daughters and share the wealth.

[A]

Amen. Well done. Well done. So tell me you're gonna do something fun.

[I]

I mean, this is the start.

[F]

This is the surprise.

[A]

I mean, something fun. What are y' all doing?

[E]

Oh, man, we love trips and quality time with our family. So we'll do more.

[A]

More. So we'll do it. We'll do a good trip.

[E]

Yeah, we'll do a good trip. This is the trip. This. All joking aside, this is our moment.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

But we'll keep doing, you know, but we love doing trips with others and, and blessing them to get some investing in memories and so maybe get myself.

[I]

A hot pink car.

[E]

That's right.

We got four girls. We got a lot of hot pink. That's our thing.

[C]

Yeah. That's amazing. How old are the girls?

[E]

They're 9, 11, 13, and 15.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

They're old enough where this is a memory for them, watching mom and dad sacrifice and hustle to give them the most incredible life.

[I]

I just have to give him a little shout out too, that in those early days when this change was made, this was side gig after side gig umpiring Etsy jobs, anything we can do, eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for years in order to establish getting to that point where we could just snowball to this point now where we can actually pay off our mortgage. So I just. He just worked so hard and has run his business through your entre leadership principles. And the culture has formed within that. And God's just been so good and blessed.

[E]

That.

[I]

And I know it's just because it's been so honoring of God throughout the whole process. So.

[A]

Yeah, that's sweet. That's very good.

[C]

Faith and tenacity and character, it's all woven in the there and it's why.

[G]

You guys are here.

[A]

You guys are rock stars, man. You're very.

[I]

So grateful.

[A]

What a great, what a great vision. Thank you for coming.

[E]

You, you built an amazing thing. Each and every person in here. This is special. It's literally life changing. Changed our lives in every sense of the word. God is good. Thank you guys. Thank you, Dave, for day one. We appreciate it.

[A]

You know, you guys are amazing. I'm so proud of you.

[I]

Thank you.

[A]

Mason and Katie, Denver, Colorado. Five and a half million paid off in three years. Count it down. Let's hear a debt free scream.

[I]

Three, two, one.

[B]

Word act break.

[C]

I'm scared of that guy.

[A]

I'm thinking he might be the best financial planner I've ever seen.

[C]

I might hire him out.

Hey, guys, it's George Camel and I've got a hot tip to save you some serious cash this holiday season. Shop, shop. Aldi first. Aldi has everything you need for holiday get togethers. I'm talking charcuterie boards, holiday sides, desserts without the large price tags. You'll get fresh, high quality food while keeping your budget off the naughty list. Because Aldi has the lowest prices of any national grocery store. It's true. Families are saving up to $4,000 a year just by making Aldi their go to, which means more money for stocking stuffers. So find a store near you@ Aldi US. That's Aldi US Savings. Based on regional analysis of Aldi versus select competitors. Prices may vary by location, product availability and the market.

[A]

Spencer's in Idaho. Hey, Spencer, how are you? Good.

[B]

Thanks, Dave, for taking my call today.

[A]

Sure. What's up?

[B]

Yeah, so I'm 22 years old. I'm close to my associate's degree in business management, and I've been working for an excavation company for two years. Earlier this spring, my boss offered to sell me his company for $750,000.

It's got about 1.5 million worth of equipment and we do right around $2 million of revenue a year. I'm calling to ask if this is a good financial decision at a young age like me or if I'm in too much over my head.

[A]

What is your position with the company?

[B]

So I'm. Right now I'm just an operator. That's what I've done for the last couple years. I'm new to the so I've just been learning as much as I can. I have kind of become more of a lead, like a crew leader, manager over the last six months, but that's where I've been.

[C]

Did he approach you specifically with this deal?

[B]

Yes. So one of my co workers was the one that initially brought it up and then he liked the idea. He's 74 years old and so he's looking to get out of the business business. And I was interested in getting in. So that's kind of how the conversation started.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, I mean, the analysis is this. You've never run a business.

And now we're talking about running a business that has 2 million dollar gross revenue.

And you've never run it. You've never even been in operations. The only thing you've operated is a bulldog dozer. And so that's the downside, right? I mean, you don't know what you're doing. Yes, that's true. And so it's not because of your age. If you were 52 and you had never run a business, you've never run a business. And running a business is a series of skills like any. Like running a dozer is a series of skills. It's just different ones. So it's not that you can't learn it, but that's your big leap right there. And I'm a little bit not understanding why he's selling a business that has a top line of 2 million. But has book value of 1 1/2 million dollars worth of equipment for only 750,000. So you could sell off half the equipment and be clear the first year, right?

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

That's weird. Why doesn't he just sell off the equipment. Equipment and make twice the money?

[B]

I feel like a lot of it's because the equipment's really old.

[A]

Is it worth a million and a half or not? Yeah, it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do with how old it is. If you. If you bought the business and turned around, sold off the equipment. Let's just play pretend for a second. Okay, here's how dumb this is. You buy it for 750,000. A month later, you sell off the equipment for a million and a half.

[B]

Enough.

[A]

And close the business and put $700,000 in your pocket.

That's weird.

[B]

Okay, that.

[A]

That's. You see what I'm saying? That, that. That doesn't ring. That doesn't ring something off about this. There's something wrong.

[C]

How did he get to this valuation of 750? Was it just a wet finger in the air?

[B]

Well, we only do. I mean, we're only working nine or ten months out of the year.

Where the profit margins are pretty low. They're 7 or 8%. And he is financing it through himself to me. And so he feels like to be able to pay the bills and make that payment, that's. That's where it needs to be to make it work.

[A]

Okay.

Yeah.

This is. This. Well, okay.

So what kind of. You're making a 7 or 8% margin. So you're making like $150,000 a year off of 2 million, correct?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Profit? Profit, yes. Yep. Net taxable income.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay. Based on that, it's not worth 750.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's worth 403 to 400. But the other problem is there's another way to value a business, and that's book value, which is if you close it and sell off all the assets, what would you get? And in this case, you'd get a million and a half. So.

You know, if you didn't have. If you didn't have the high book value, then this thing would be worth nowhere near what he's asking based on its profitability. So he's correct in that he's trying to set you up to where you can at least stay open and pay him the 750. But.

How many pieces of equipment?

[B]

Oh, he's got six excavators, four loaders, grader.

Bunch of attachments for it then he's got semis, he's got a transportation side with trailers, he's got a lot of equipment, but there is no land. This 1.5 million is just enough.

[A]

Yeah, I got that. I got that. Okay, so I'm just trying to. Gosh, if I were advising him, I would advise him to close the business and sell the stuff. He'll make twice as much. Okay, if I'm advising you.

I don't. Well, number one, I got a real concern that you've never operated a business and that you might not make any money because you don't know the operations side of getting the clients, getting the contract signed, running the payables, run the payroll, doing the marketing. There's a lot of things to operating a business.

I would love for you to have been mentored as his vice president of operations for two years before you called me and asked this. And then it would have been an easier answer. You see what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he does want to mentor me for a couple of years, but he's wanting out pretty soon.

[A]

Yeah, it's kind of like tossing the kids. Tossing a 13 year old or tossing me. I've never operated a bulldozer. You toss me the keys, the bulldozer and go, hey, have fun. I got a feeling I'm gonna knock the neighbor's house down. Okay, so. Because I don't know what the flip I'm doing with no instruction. But if he's gonna come alongside you and instruct you for two years, then that helps a bunch.

[C]

And then you said he's doing the financing to you with some seller financing deal. So how would that work out?

[B]

So he wants to finance it over 10 years and I'll basically pay him $75,000 a year and he wants it in quarterly payments.

[A]

Yeah.

But you could sell off two, three pieces of equipment and pay him off almost immediately.

[B]

Yeah, that's correct.

[A]

If that was the plan and you got two years of mentoring on operations and your plan is not to pay him off over 10 years, it's to pay him off over 10 months because you're going to liquidate enough equipment to pay him off off, then I would be okay, you're gonna have a debt free business with $750,000 worth of equipment that you know how to operate and.

You overpaid for it, but you didn't overpay for it because you got assets with it. So it's a weird calculation. You following all this gyration I'm doing?

[B]

Yeah, I follow you okay.

[A]

And hang on. I'm gonna have Christian hook you up with one of our entree leadership coaches and give you a little bit more assistance than just a podcast radio show. Answer and let one of our. We coach 10,000 small businesses. So one of those coaches could actually help you walk through some of this. But I think if you know how to operate it and it's debt free.

I don't care if you're 22, you're sharp, talking to you, I think you can do it.

[C]

It gives you wiggle room to figure it out and restore.

[A]

Yeah. Then you could, you could. But if you've had somebody mentor you for two years on operations and you turn around, sell off enough of the equipment to pay him off in the first year, and you operate a smaller business but a high mar. Higher margin business because there's no debt on it, then I think you got a good foothold to go make some serious money.

The excavation business there's really good. These margins are too low. Everybody I know in that business makes money. It's a, it's a money maker if it's operated right. And I think he's just kind of let things go cause he's tired. So I got a feeling you can get your margins up 10, 15% and start making some serious bank on this. You could make more money with less equipment and no debt later on. That's where it could be your future. Interesting. Interesting call.

[C]

What a riddle that was.

[A]

Yeah, really.

Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fairwinds credit union studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, George Camel Ramsey, personality number one best selling author is my co host today. The phone Number here is 888-255-2225. Virginia is in Austin, Texas. Hi Virginia, how are you?

[F]

I'm good. Hi Dave. Hi, George. How are you guys doing?

[A]

Better than we deserve. What's up?

[F]

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me on. So my husband and I are currently working through the baby steps. We are on step two. We have about 100, $249 in debt that we have to work through. We had a lot of stupid tax in our 20s. Basically we grew up, me specifically, I grew up very poor without anything. My birth mother relied on a lot of government agency assistance and we barely had food to make it through. So right now while we're working through the baby steps, I'm having a really hard time letting go of the what if moments. So whenever we do have the margin during that month to pay off a good chunk of debt, it's just getting really hard for me to not put it towards the debt and just keep it in savings. So my question is, like, how do I work through that, like, fight or flight mode that I've been in my entire life without, like, I just want to build generational wealth for my two. For our two kids and.

[A]

You're amazing. I really appreciate you. You're amazing. That's a great. Your self awareness and your. The forming of your question is just excellent. Just very well.

[I]

Thank you.

[A]

Very well done. So what do you do for a living?

[F]

So I actually work from home. I'm a retail support operations specialist and my husband is a diesel mechanic.

[A]

What's your household income?

[F]

So household we make after tax, about $112,710 each year.

[A]

Okay, so he's doing really well as a diesel mechanic then. And he should be. That's a great feat field. Okay.

And your degree is in what?

[F]

We actually both dropped out of college. We. My. We both have associates. He has an associate business and I have an associate of art. So we're actually just having associates.

[A]

Okay. All right. So I'm going to send you a copy of Rachel's book, Know Yourself, Know youw Money. And she talks a lot about in that book the things you were talking about here, which is like family of origin and how that affects.

How you handle money in your marriage and the feelings you have about money that you so clearly articulated and all of those things.

I have a friend that never really got healed from what you're talking about. And he was worth several hundred million dollars and he worked like 12 hours a day. But he said, I grew up dirt poor. And for those of you that don't know what that means, that means literally the floor of the house was dirt. That's what dirt poor means in East Tennessee or in the hills of Appalachia. And so he grew up in a dirt floor house. They called that dirt pour. I've heard it my whole life. But he never got over his childhood, the trauma that his childhood represented on the subject of money. And so he could never make enough. He could never save enough because he never got healed from that.

[F]

Absolutely.

[A]

And that's the beauty of your question, is you're the opposite end of that. You're seeking healing. And so Dr. John DeLoney gave us a great saying. I first heard him cover it back during COVID But he's done a lot of trauma work. And for purposes of this discussion, we're going to declare your childhood traumatic.

[F]

Yeah, that's very fair.

[A]

At a Minimum. It was dramatic, but we might call it traumatic. And he said when you're in the middle of trauma, it has a signature in your body. And so you physically feel like you did when you were a child when you write these checks, because it brings back all those fears and your body tenses up in exactly the same places it did when you were 12.

[F]

Yes, 100%.

[A]

And that's how trauma works. He's explained that to me. I didn't know that, but he's got a PhD in this stuff, so he's taught a lot of us around here stuff like this. So he says when you're dealing with this and your body starts to remember and act like you're still broke, like you're 12 years old and you don't have enough to eat, your body starts remembering that. But that's not the facts. He says the way to work through that is facts are your friends.

And you stop for a second and go, okay, what are the facts? The facts are I'm not my mom.

The facts are our kids are not in the same situation. My kids are. The facts are we make over 100 freaking thousand dollars a year. And my husband has one of the most employ careers on the planet. Right now. The chances of him going without work is really close to zero.

[F]

That's good to know. He actually just got promoted to diesel tech, so I'm very excited about that.

[A]

I'm telling you, he's never going to be without work as long as he physically can do the work. That's good because there's, there's a shortage and, and it's the trades, and the trades are booming right now. He's in a. He's in a really sweet spot. That's a fact. So the fact is you're so far away mathematically from your childhood that these feelings then are illogical. And you can begin to tell yourself that.

[F]

Yes. Yeah. And I do. I'm actually kind of the nerd of our marriage. And I have a paper. I do it old school. I have every dollar, but just the free version. So I do an old school, like monthly budget and I do it every two weeks just to see kind of where we're landing to. Just show me, hey, you do make over $100,000 a year. You're insane. Stop acting like that.

[A]

It's not insane. It's not insane. It's the result of bad things happening. If something bad happens, your body remembers that and you literally physiologically relive that fear.

Your shoulders tighten up. Your shoulders raise up like you said, you're in fight or flight mode and your lizard brain is kicking in instead of your high thinking, high functioning brain, because that's what happens when danger comes. And so we all face this. We all face this. And so for different reasons, different things activate that, whether it's childhood or something else. And so, you know, I think you just practice stopping when you start having that feeling and tell your body that it's wrong.

[F]

Okay. Yeah, I can do that. I actually told myself that it's wrong.

[A]

Yeah. Deep breaths. You're wrong. We are not there. That's where we were when I was 12, but I'm not 12.

[F]

12.

[A]

I'm not my mom. And we're not in that situation.

And no blame or shame. It's just where we are. The fact is, you're not in any danger. And it just takes a little while for your body and for you to retrain your brain to go to observe where you are. Does that make sense?

[F]

It does. It absolutely does. And I agree with you 100%. I mean, to your point, the math is there. It's plain on paper that we're not drowning. We just need to work a little bit hard to get out of the hole that we're in.

[A]

Yeah, you didn't.

[C]

You didn't.

[B]

You didn't.

[A]

You didn't say the math wasn't there. You. You just said, I can't get the emotions to stop.

[F]

Right.

[C]

How much do you have in savings right now?

[A]

We're.

[F]

I mean, we have our baby step one. So we have a thousand dollars, and then we're. We're slowly chunking away. I actually just paid off one of our credit cards. I mean, it was only $500, but I actually just, you know, pulled the trigger and. And paid it off.

[C]

Way to go.

[A]

Okay, we're gonna upgrade your every dollar to the advanced version. We're gonna pay for it for you. I think you're amazing. I'm so proud of you guys. Keep it up.

[C]

You know your numbers, and that tells me you're gonna get out of this.

[A]

You're gonna be okay.

Do you want to keep more money in your pocket and not Uncle Sam's? Then listen up. There are tax deductions and credits you could maximize before the end of the year by connecting with an experienced tax professional like a Ramsey trusted tax pro. They know the tax code inside and out so you don't have to, and they can help you file when tax season rolls around, get a trusted tax by going to ramseysolutions.com taxpro ramseysolutions.com taxpro.

You know, our last caller talking about the feelings and the emotions around money reminded me of Jade Warshaw's new book what no one tells you about Money. The real key to getting unstuck from someone who's been there. This is the true thing here where.

The emotions, Jade gets into the emotions in this book like, like no one else. It's really good because she dealt with so much emotion fighting through her and Sam paying off $465,000 or debt. So this is a great new book by Jade Warshaw, one of our Ramsey Solutions publishing endeavors. And you can pre order it right now for $24.99. Get over $100 in free bonus items, enhanced audiobook, early access to the ebook, instant access to the exclusive video your financial checkup with Jade Warchio. And here's what's cool. They're going to do exclusive 3 week online book club for those that pre order. That includes a live Q and A with Jade for three weeks. That's cool. That's going to be neat. And so, and I promise you, this lady can walk you right straight through whatever you're on, moving you right to where you want to go. And that's, that's the thing.

[C]

This will get you unstuck if you're on that journey.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's pretty cool. The book is what no One Tells yous About Money. So be sure and get it pre ordered right [e-mail] store. Paige is with us in Chicago. Hi Paige. Paige, how are you?

[F]

Hi. I'm good. How are you guys?

[A]

Better than we deserve. What's up?

[F]

So I just had a question about saving for my son. I am 24. My son's 18 months. I'm a stay at home mom. And my husband and I, well he also does too. We're really looking into saving for our son for big things. School down payment on a home when he gets older. Just big things that will help him later in life get a step ahead. And I was just looking for advice on maybe like how maybe like investment accounts or saving accounts, compoundable accounts like things like that. Right now we're just putting $80 away a month for him into what? It's just into municipal fund. It's not anything crazy or special.

[A]

Okay. Well there's not anything crazy or special and it sounds like you're very excited about having a new baby and that's awesome. And you're a good mommy and good daddy. You want your kid to do Better than you've done. That's awesome. Proud of you for all of that. I personally would tell you not to use special accounts that are earmarked just for him. I simply would build wealth. You and your husband build stuff, some wealth and then as he gets older, you can reach over and pay for college. Or as he gets older, you can reach over and buy a house and give it to him if you want to get. Those two things would cause him to leapfrog ahead. A paid for education and a free house. You know, if he, if he gets some knowledge with that and some wisdom to go with that, he could go be a millionaire in 20 seconds if he did, if he had those two things alone. But you could do that just out of your personal, personal mutual fund account. You don't have to have a special earmarked for him. He could be your motivation for building that. And that's a wonderful motivation. Changing your family tree, right?

[F]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So the key is it's, it's in your name, you have control. Because here's the issue. If he turns 18 and there's $200,000 in there, you have to hope he wants to buy a house and do something wise with it. But you remember when we were 18, our brain was not thinking quite logically. And so that's the danger of just handing over six figures to an 18 year old. So 529 plan is great for college savings. And then outside of that, if you want to open just a mutual fund account, a brokerage account like Dave mentioned, you can invest for him there in your name.

[A]

Yeah, I would just have you be building wealth. Yes, I would be saving for college. And 529, when you get to that baby step five, wherever you are in the baby steps. But you know.

So here's. Let me give you an example, okay? We saved up for our kids college, our three kids that are now not kids, they're now grown humans, okay? And in those days there wasn't a 529. So we just saved what was called an UTMA uniform transfer to Minors act, which simply means we opened an account in their name in good mutual funds and we were the custodian. It was their account money, okay? And it grew at their tax rate. And you can do that. And you can do that or you can do a 529. Either one. 529 grows tax free, which is the benefit of that.

And here's what happened though. When they got to college, we had started doing so well that I just Wrote the checks out of the checking account and paid for college cash flow it. I just cash flowed it. So that ended up with each kid having a nice big nest egg in the mutual funds. And when they graduated from college, I signed that over to them.

And that gave them a pretty good chunk like the amount of college right to get started with. That was pretty sweet. And so stuff like that is easy to do. But there's no, I would not bifurcate something for an 18 month old, set it aside in his name, create some double backflip trust crap or something and then hope that all works out. Instead, I think you raise the kid and you raise big pile of money and you'll be able to combine the two. If they both work.

[C]

That'S the big thing.

[A]

If both turn out, the big pile of money turns out and the kid turns out, then we can combine them.

[C]

That's called winning as a parent.

[A]

Yeah, but I mean you don't want to give up 18 year old heroin addict, $200,000, you'll kill them.

Because they'll go overdose in a heartbeat. And so that's the problem. And I'm not suggesting that your little guy's going to end up that at all. But I have in 35 years of doing this, heard some really sad stories. Stories. So I just keep it in your name. Build a big old pile of wealth, get yourself out of debt, be investing in your 401ks and have some mutual fund investing to the side. And then you look over and there's some money and he gets married and you want to buy him a house and pay cash for it. Tell him never get into debt. And he's a great young man. He's a citizen, he graduated from college, he's making a good money, he's standing on his own two feet. He's not living in his mommy's basement sucking his thumb at 24 years old. And this is a great kid. Yeah. Write a check, buy him a house. I would definitely do that. Definitely. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Katie is in Des Moines. Hi Katie, how are you?

[F]

Hi Dave. Thanks for taking my call.

[A]

Sure. What's up?

[F]

So just a little bit of background for you. I am just about to turn 40 here at the end of the month and my husband and I have have been married for six years. We bought a home five years ago and we were in pretty good shape. We both worked full time and then I got sick and had to drastically reduce my income because of that. And we went Through Financial Peace University right before that happened. So we were on baby step number one still.

And, and I got. We've gotten ourselves into quite a bit of credit card debt at this point because of all the health challenges and medical and just so many things.

[A]

You don't have health insurance to cover most of that?

[F]

Oh, we do, yeah. But so I've been type 1 diabetic since I was 10, so I've been dealing with that for 30 years. So that just adds extra finances on top of. I'm dealing with some type of autoimmune issue that we haven't been able to take of care out. Been going to lots of doctors. Some, some doctors like holistic, functional.

[A]

How much? How much? Student. I mean, I'm sorry, how much credit card debt do you have?

[F]

18,000 right now. And I have four different credit cards.

[A]

Okay, and.

Have you found a diagnosis?

[F]

I think we're on the brink of it. I'm going to see a rheumatologist here next week. I just found out I have some type of autoimmune thyroid issue going on.

[A]

So you've got no energy?

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry.

[F]

I can barely.

[A]

You can barely what?

[B]

I can.

[F]

I can barely work.

[A]

I understand. I'm so sorry. And you said you're 40?

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[F]

Yeah. By will be.

[A]

And what's your husband's income?

[F]

My husband. Gross income or net Gross. Gross income is 60,000.

[A]

Okay. And how much is your house payment?

[F]

House payment is $1241.

[A]

Okay, listen, I think you guys have had the crud beat out of you with this medical thing and the emotions that go with that. I think you've done amazingly well considering everything that's coming at you. I think you really, really have done a good job. So keep doing a good job and get the other side of this and then you can figure out what you're doing. The house is not causing you a problem and 18,000 is not causing you a problem. You can clean that up as soon as you get your health return.

[B]

Foreign.

[D]

Hey guys, it's here, our Cyber Monday sale. And you can pick up our best selling books like Baby Steps millionaires for only $12. Or pick up a set of our Questions for Humans cards. That way at your next gathering you can put down the screens and have amazing conversations and instead. And they're just $12. Plus some of our best selling digital products like our audiobooks are as low as $6.99. Seriously guys, gifts like these change people's lives. And that's always a Good deal. Visit ramseysolutions.com store.

[A]

Fourteen months ago, my wife Sharon and I went on a 13 day journey through the country of Turkey, visiting each of the churches of Revelation with an incredible Bible teacher who has become a close friend, Brad Gray. Brad is joining us because Brad's working on a project that he got to tell me about while we were in Turkey and we've been kind of teamed up a little bit. I've been part of his background vocals while he's been working on this thing. And we've had a couple of events and things raising some money for this because this project is absolutely stunning and incredible and I want to be able to tell you about it. So I brought Brad on. He has a full length feature film called The Lord's Prayer. 1 hour and 22 minutes. Sharon and I watched it the other night. The visuals and.

The photography is world class. It will blow your mind. And he spends that hour and 22 minutes unpacking the Lord's Prayer. You've got to watch it, provide it for you. He's going to provide it for you for free through Angel. It's with angel studios, so angel.com Ramsey you can watch it for free. Welcome, my friend.

[G]

Hey, it's great to be here. Thank you.

[A]

Good to have you. So how I know you're working on this, and I know the answer because I've heard you tell this, but I want to throw you the underhand pitch. You've been working on the whole sacred thread concept all through scripture and teaching scripture in a way that translates to the big screen or translates to your television screen to where we can learn it at a different rate and a different. Because when you see the locations, it shifts the learning. But you started with the Lord's Prayer, now you got an entire book. The book is out Bringing Heaven Here, which is a book on the Lord's Prayer and 122 minutes on the Lord's Prayer, which we all just recite like. And we're done.

[G]

Yep.

[A]

But when you unpack it the way you do, it's pretty incredible.

[G]

Yeah, I appreciate that.

[A]

So what inspires you to write an entire book and do this feature film on the.

[G]

Yeah, well, it actually began seven years ago without any thought of a book or a film or a television series. But I was actually just sitting down and reading the Sermon on the Mount. And when Jesus gets to the Lord's Prayer, he prefaces it with and this then is how you should pray. And I just had a moment where I was like, oh, like, I think he actually meant it.

And which was almost embarrassing for me. I've been leading these study trips since 2010. I was a pastor for more than a decade. I've been in church world my entire life. And yet the Lord's Prayer wasn't something that was part of my daily regimen. And I just realized at that moment that I needed to do a very deep dive for my own soul. And as a result of going through it and seeing what was there, it was much deeper, much wider, more compelling than I ever knew. And because it started to transform my life, my faith, my prayer, prayers, my thoughts, and just how I went about life every day. When we started to work on this idea to create the highest quality documentary series that's ever been done on the Bible, it was like, then, let's start with the Lord's Prayer. Everything is contained in that.

[A]

Yeah, it's all there. Yeah. But then we can go deeper and wider even from that. But let this be the jumping off point. And as I said, what gave you guys the idea to go to the location? Because you're standing next to the pyramids, you're standing next to the Nile, you're standing in all these different locations where some of these singular words in the prayer were originated, like, father is the opening thing, our Father. And then you do 10 minutes on father. And what made you come up with the idea to do that?

[G]

So my first study trip to the Middle east happened in 2006, and it completely revolutionized my faith because you hear all these stories growing up and then you actually go to the locations and every everything fits. And you're just like, oh, this thing is real. And just being there and walking, it changes the way that you engage and experience the story. And so when we wanted to put this documentary series together, most people would think, oh, Jesus is giving the Lord's Prayer in Israel. You're going to be in Israel. We're actually in six different countries for this opening film and season, because all of these pieces are connecting around the Roman Empire. They're connecting back to Egypt for the Exodus story for Jesus. And. And so we just knew that 99.9% of people, even just professing Christians, will never set foot in the Holy Lands. And we wanted to bring that not just to people in America, but all over the world to be able to see these locations and allow them to make some additional connections to connecting the dots of Scripture.

[C]

That's incredible. Well, you call this prayer a framework for transformation. And I'm reminded by our mission here at Ramsey we're in the transformation business, you know, for your money, your work, your life, your relationships. In what way is this relevant today to help transform people's lives? Why should people care about the lord's prayer in 2026?

[G]

Yeah, well, the greatest thing about the Lord's Prayer that was kind of really revealed to me was this is actually the most distilled place in scripture for helping people to understand who God is, why Jesus came, and what's our purpose here on earth, you know, and that's one of the things that you guys do such a great job with, is helping people to be very clear and focused on what's important and doing the right things in order to live life the best way that you can. And the Lord's Prayer is a blueprint for living. It wasn't just a prayer. Jesus taught people to pray. It was the very prayer that he was living out in his own life. And I've come to learn that over the last seven years, in particular of praying this prayer every day. It's the singular most important thing I do every day, day to recalibrate to what is the most important aspects of life and how do we live life well as a result of it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Was it NT Wright that you were interviewing that said he prayed it every morning?

[G]

Yes, he was.

[A]

He's in the documentary.

[G]

Yeah, he's. Yeah, he's in the documentary. Yeah.

[A]

He said he starts his prayer or ends his prayer.

[G]

Ends his prayer.

[A]

Yeah, every time with the Lord's Prayer. Because it's a framework.

[G]

Because it's a framework.

[A]

Because it resets. It's a settling point.

[G]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[A]

Very cool. Very cool. Again, you gotta go watch this. It's completely free, boys and girls. Go to angel.com Ramsay angel has made it free for you guys and you can watch it there and stream it and just pop it up on your screen. Sharon and I watched it the other night. The premiere was done here at the Ramsey Event Center a few weeks ago. I was out of town, missed that. But I heard it went real well.

[G]

It was awesome.

[A]

And a lot of people were. I was getting texts from all my friends that were friends of yours that were in the audience watching, going, hey, Brad, got the thing out. It's going. So in the last couple minutes that we've got talk about daily bread.

[G]

Yeah, I'm glad.

[A]

Give us this day our daily bread.

[G]

Yeah. I love this part of the prayer because actually you mentioned N.T. wright. You know, he wrote a book a number of years ago where he said the problem with asking for daily bread is that we get there too soon. And that so oftentimes when we open up prayer, we have kind of a laundry list of all the things that we want to ask for, that we need. And what's great about daily bread is it actually comes much further down in the prayer where the rest of it kind of sets the frame for what are we called to do? How are we supposed to partner with God in the world? And daily bread really becomes about asking God for what is essential for the task at hand. Like when we're called to do something, what's essential? And the thing that's so great about the daily bread piece is, is that it also reminds us that the whole prayer is in the plural. Give us this day our daily bread. And when you dig into just what daily bread meant and what Jesus was inviting his community into, it's not just asking God for the things that you need. It's also supposed to cause you to pause and ask the question, how am I being generous? So that when other people are praying, give us this day our daily bread, can I play a part in being the fulfillment of their request? So it's actually part of the prayer that really inspires a sense of generosity. And too often we get so caught up in asking for things or pursuing things that don't actually matter. I mean, the number of calls you guys get in, people are making bad decisions because they're pursuing the wrong things and they're pursuing the wrong things in the wrong way. Way. This is a part of the prayer where we're going, okay, God, what is essential? What do I really need? And how can I be generous with what you've given to me so that when somebody else is praying, give us this day our daily bread? I might actually be that answer. Yeah.

[C]

Good reminder.

[A]

Brad Gray is the president and CEO of Walking the Text, where he literally walks you through the text in different locations. That's what Sharon and I were doing with Revelation churches in Turkey with a group there with him. It was absolutely incredible time. The new film, it's a full length 1 hour and 22 minute feature film. You get to watch it free. Angel.com Ramsey it's called the Lord's Prayer. Recommended heavily. And of course, Bringing Heaven Here is the companion piece book. You can get it anywhere. Great books are sold, I assume. Amazon. Yes, yes, Amazon for sure. Okay, be sure and check it out. So bringing Heaven here and the Lord's Prayer. My friend, I'm proud of you. This is really good work. Thanks for stopping in.

[G]

Yeah, thanks. For having me. Appreciate it.

[A]

Brad Gray, ladies and gentlemen.

It's one of the best times of the year, but it's also the time of year when people let their money get totally out of control. Everywhere you look, it's just buy, buy, buy. So you start swiping the credit card and suddenly it's January and you got a mess on your hands. Don't let that happen. Tell your money where to go instead of wondering where it went with our budgeting app. Every Every dollar not only helps you stay on budget and in control of your spending this holiday season, it also helps you find extra margin in your budget. Thousands of dollars of it. And every day will coach you to build better money habits and attack your goals faster than ever. So while most people will be starting in January with a taste of regret in their mouth, you'll already be winning. Start everydollar for free by downloading the app today.

Our scripture of the day, Psalm 128. 2. You will eat the fruit of your labor. Blessings and prosperity will be yours. Steve Jobs said the only way to do great work is to to love what you do. If you haven't found it yet, keep looking, don't settle. One of our favorite things here is finding out that people share their stories of how they're winning. We just heard this from Claire and Winston. This is me and my husband's third month budgeting with the EveryDollar app. And I'm amazed at how much money we found. We went from feeling like we were living paycheck to paycheck to finding $3,500 extra margin each month to put towards our debt. We had four credit cards and have been able to pay them all off in less than three. Never going back. Boy, that's cool, guys. That's amazing. I'm proud of you. Hey, guys, you can do this too. You can take control of your money and change your family tree and live like no one else. Go to and go online and download the Every Dollar budgeting app for free. It's a full plan. Budgeting is just in the background. We're gonna walk you through the Ramsey plan and show you exactly how to do this stuff. Go get everydollar and get it right now. Amy's in Grand Rapids. Hi, Amy.

[F]

Do you.

[B]

How.

[A]

How are you?

[F]

Hi. Thanks so much, Dave and George for taking my call.

[A]

Sure.

[F]

I'm calling because my husband and I would like you guys to help settle the difference of opinion we have on how to invest our 15%. So one of us would like to invest that in ETF, mutual funds, in our Roth IRAs, Roth 401k. The other would like to invest in a unique real estate situation. We have on our paid for property on Lake Michigan, Michigan.

[A]

A paid for. Is it a rental property?

[F]

No, it's actually where we live. So we have. Our home is paid for.

[A]

Fixing up your home is not investing, it's fixing up your home.

[F]

Well, we have like a second home, a cabin, one of those like a frame Sears kit things. And we were hoping to renovate that and then bring it up and rent it out.

[A]

Oh, okay. So it's not in rental condition now, right?

[F]

Exactly.

[A]

What will it take to fix it?

[F]

Well, it's also on the edge of the bluff. So we'd have to move it back, which would be about 30,000, and then to bring it up to rental grade would be about another 70,000. So we're looking at like 100,000 in all.

[C]

How much do you guys have saved right now?

[F]

Not really much. So we actually have had a repair on our house set us back to baby step three. So we're rebuilding that right now and we're trying to figure out when we hit play, which way to go on this because we've had some property managers that have been like, you can get, you know, 1500 to 2000 a week because it's really unique as like an Airbnb. Yeah, exactly.

[C]

Well, I don't see this in the category of Baby Step 4. Baby Step 4 is invest 15% in retirement. Retirement. And this is not retirement.

[A]

This is real estate. Invest.

[C]

Just separate it. Just do it. 15 retirement. And above that, save up this chunk and cash flow, the renovation.

[A]

What's your household income?

[F]

Okay, about 225,000.

[A]

Okay. All right.

Okay. The.

You said Lake Michigan, didn't you?

[F]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, so you don't have a 12 month season.

Right?

[F]

That is true.

[A]

Okay, so 1500 is for just a short period of time.

[F]

Although we do have a lot of folks that come in recreational for like fishing and that sort of thing.

[A]

Not 1500 a week.

[F]

No, but you're right, you're right. It would be less than you're looking.

[C]

For the people who want to make an Instagram post out of this. Not your, your.

[A]

Yeah, but that's just that you got a three month season here.

You don't have a 12 month season. So.

It sounds like you're cherry picking the numbers to make this sound more appealing than it is. I'm not sure it's a great investment period because 100 grand in with the rental you're going to get back out and running an Airbnb is running a hotel. It's a pain in the butt. It's a lot of work. You're changing dirty sheets and hauling off guard garbage. Someone is.

[F]

Yeah, we were thinking we would get property managers, but you're, yeah, but then.

[A]

Then your 1500amonth starts to evaporate in your Airbnb fees.

[F]

Well, sorry, Per week?

[A]

Yeah, I'm sorry, 1500 a week. But, yeah, but, but that's only for a short period of time. But. So, yeah, I, I, I think you need to run a realistic pro forma on this instead of throwing the 1500 a week around and acting like that's a 12 month roll. It's not. And when you do that, I don't know if you're going to see a great return on 100k. So even if we didn't put it in baby step four and we said, okay, baby step six, you start or seven, you save up and fix this up as an investment property, later on you drop 100k in it, are you going to get your money back out in cash flow? I don't know if you're, you might, you might, it might work out for you. But the thing I know about real estate is, and I own a bunch of, of it is net is different than gross. You have gross rents and everybody walks around talking about their gross rents. But you have property taxes, you have insurance, you have expenses, you have maintenance, you have vacancy, you have legal trouble, you have everything else that comes out of that and then you have net. And so, you know, people walk, act like that, especially inexperienced real estate investors act like that. They're, that they, you know, it's 1500 and it's not, it's not because somebody's got to take out the garbage and clean the sheets and somebody's got to deal with the stuff and the heat and air is going to go out and then some bozo throws a beer bottle through the window and welcome to Airbnb. And so it's, it's a thing, man. So I know it's not a baby step four. Joe's right. George is right. I don't know Joe is, but George is, which is right.

[C]

My bizarro arch nemesis.

[A]

And so yeah, now I would be putting baby step four, 15% into retirement and good growth stock mutual funds, that's what I'd be doing there. This investment would be later on or with a different set of money than that. It is not investing for retirement. No. I would not do that. And I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying it doesn't qualify for that the way we teach. And I wouldn't do it until you've got some extra money later. Right now you're just above broke. You're just now getting that past baby step three, and now you're starting to move into investing and you're now you're talking about dropping 100 grand into a real estate deal. No, no, not right now. Not right now. Hope that helps. Hope I solved the argument. I think I came down on her side. I think the husband's not happy. But that's okay. We'll. We'll live.

[C]

You'll live to tell the tale.

[A]

Yeah. Ben is in Phoenix. Hey, Ben. How are you? I'm great.

[B]

How are you guys doing?

[A]

Better than we deserve. What's going on up.

[B]

So I recently was going through my house. I knew I had this, but I rediscovered some gold coins that my dad has been buying for me for Christmas since I was a kid. And I did the math and it's about $22,000 worth of gold.

That I have. Yeah. So recently my fiance was laid off in August. So, you know, we lost a chunk of our income, but we're still living within our means. We're in pretty good shape, all things considered. Still, we do have our thousand dollars emergency fund for baby step one. And the only debt that both of us have is the house that I bought when I was 24 and our cars.

[A]

But what do you owe on your car?

[B]

I owe about 20,000 left and she's at about 15,000 left.

[A]

You're not married. You're not paying off somebody's car. You're not married.

[B]

Correct. Yes.

[A]

So there's not a we. There's not a way. You have a roommate. Okay. You have $22,000 worth of gold and you need to put it on your stuff until you're married. When's the marriage?

[B]

In October. And the wedding is going to be covered from both of our parents savings for unfortunately.

[A]

What'd you say you owed on your car?

[B]

About 20,000.

[A]

Oh, perfect. Sell the golden pay off your car.

[B]

Okay, I've been wondering. My dad is a little bit of a panicker and he says never sell it. And I've always been wondering, well, what's it for? I'm never supposed to pay.

[A]

Well, I never have a car payment either and never go get another car payment after this. Yeah, it's your last time ever. Yeah.

[C]

But here's a good way to think about it. If I gave you $22,000 right now, you wouldn't go buy gold with it, would you?

[B]

When you put it like that, I didn't even call in.

[C]

That's the simplest way I can think about it. And I go, let's sell the gold and turn it into money. Now. It's the best use of this money is getting rid of our consultation consumer debt. That's gonna really free you up.

[A]

Boom. Just like that. And you guys quit combining finances until October. You're not married. It's very dangerous. Stop it. Stop it, stop it, stop it. That puts this hour of the Ramsey show in the book. So we'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the prince of.

[B]

Peace, Christ Jesus Sam.