If You're Intentional With Money, You Can Win With Money

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ramsey Show – "If You're Intentional With Money, You Can Win With Money"

Release Date: March 6, 2025
Host: Ramsey Network (Dave Ramsey and Dr. John Deloney)

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Ramsey Show, Dave Ramsey teams up with Dr. John Deloney to address a variety of financial challenges faced by listeners. Focusing on the theme "If You're Intentional With Money, You Can Win With Money," the hosts provide actionable advice to help individuals and couples regain control over their finances, build wealth, and foster healthy relationships through financial stewardship.

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1. Navigating Financial Separation During Marital Strain

Caller: J.D. from Dayton, Ohio
Issue: Unexpected separation initiated by his wife, who also unilaterally split their joint finances, leaving J.D. concerned about managing debts and maintaining financial stability during the separation.

Advice Provided:

• Separate Finances: Dave advises J.D. to treat the separation as a de facto divorce by closing joint accounts and opening new, individual ones. This ensures financial independence and prevents further complications.

  "You separate them as if you're divorced."
  (01:54) – Dave Ramsey

• Manage Shared Debts: While maintaining separate accounts, both parties should continue paying agreed-upon debts, negotiating terms that reflect their separation status.

• Reconciliation Potential: If reconciliation occurs, they can recombine their finances seamlessly, reverting to joint accounts.

Notable Quote:

"Behavior is a language. I heard two very disturbing behaviors... these two behaviors say you're getting divorced."
– Dave Ramsey (03:57)

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2. Managing Increased Income from Inheriting a Family Business

Caller: Derek from Florence, South Carolina
Issue: Derek is set to inherit his father's insurance agency, expecting his income to triple. He seeks guidance on responsibly managing the anticipated extra income to enhance his financial position without overextending.

Advice Provided:

• Create a Detailed Plan: Dave emphasizes the importance of writing down a comprehensive plan detailing how the additional income will be allocated.

  "Write down exactly in detail what we're going to do with $450,000 this year."
  – Dave Ramsey (15:10)

• Budget Allocation: Allocate the increased funds into three main categories: invest, save, and enjoy. This balanced approach ensures growth, security, and room for personal fulfillment.

• Involve Spouse: Collaboratively discuss and agree on financial goals with his wife to foster mutual understanding and commitment.

Notable Quote:

"With the extra 250, you two look at each other deeply in the eyes and say, all right, how much of this 250 are we going to invest?"
– Dave Ramsey (17:01)

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3. Assisting a Spouse in Debt Repayment

Caller: Connie from Springfield, Illinois
Issue: Connie has successfully progressed through the Ramsey Financial Peace Program and now seeks advice on helping her husband adopt the same financial strategies to achieve their shared wealth goals.

Advice Provided:

• Unified Financial Goals: Dave stresses the importance of combining financial goals and dreams to enhance marital harmony and increase the probability of financial success.

  "The couples that do what you guys have been doing have a very low statistical probability... But 89% got there by the two of us looking like two adults saying..."
  – Dave Ramsey (22:28)

• Collaborative Planning: Encourage open communication and joint planning to ensure both partners are aligned in their financial journey.

Notable Quote:

"Talk about the stupid things... you can't have everything in one pile anymore."
– Dave Ramsey (07:00)

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4. Addressing Large Credit Card Debt and Delinquent Loans

Caller: Greg from Dallas, Texas
Issue: Greg is burdened with $200,000 in credit card debt and delinquent loans. Currently between jobs and using Uber for income, he wonders whether to let the debts expire off his credit report or actively address them.

Advice Provided:

• Aggressive Debt Repayment: Dave unequivocally advises Greg to sell both his house and car to eliminate high-interest debts, thereby preventing long-term financial repercussions.

  "Sell the car and sell the house."
  – Dave Ramsey (43:37)

• Rebuilding Financial Stability: With the elimination of major debts, Greg can focus on rebuilding his income, saving diligently, and making informed financial decisions to prevent future debt accumulation.

Notable Quote:

"Your life is not good. You have to get back right side up."
– Dave Ramsey (47:50)

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5. Optimizing Retirement Investments and Addressing Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs)

Caller: Anthony from Portland, Oregon
Issue: Anthony is on track to pay off his mortgage in 20 months and seeks advice on maximizing his 403B and 457 retirement accounts. He is concerned about the implications of RMDs and whether he should prioritize investing over mortgage repayment.

Advice Provided:

• Prioritize Roth Investments: Dave recommends maximizing contributions to Roth accounts to avoid RMDs and benefit from tax-free growth and inheritance advantages.

  "Roth IRAs... are not subject to RMD."
  – Dave Ramsey (75:55)

• Understand and Manage RMDs: Dave clarifies that RMDs are manageable and not a reason to avoid investing. He suggests diversifying retirement funds into Roth accounts to minimize future tax burdens.

Notable Quote:

"You can't be more than humanly possible in this process... You're not gonna end up cashing out 300,000 at 73 years old."
– Dave Ramsey (76:07)

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6. Overcoming Emotional and Financial Abuse in Relationships

Caller: Connie from Dallas, Texas
Issue: Connie is in an emotionally abusive relationship with significant debt ($6,000 personal debt out of $23,000 total). She is striving to leave the abusive relationship but feels financially constrained.

Advice Provided:

• Seek Immediate Support: Dave urges Connie to reach out to a pastor or counselor immediately to establish a support system and strategize her exit from the abusive relationship.

  "Get out of there now... Get in the car and drive to Dallas and get a job."
  – Dave Ramsey (58:15)

• Raise Income and Gain Independence: Increase income through additional employment and sever ties with the abusive partner to rebuild financial and emotional stability.

Notable Quote:

"You are a warrior princess, and it's time you act like it."
– Dave Ramsey (59:50)

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7. Building Wealth Through Strategic Investing

Throughout the Episode
Advice Provided:

• Intentional Budgeting: Utilize tools like the EveryDollar budget app to plan and allocate every dollar, ensuring intentional spending and saving.

  "You have to start telling your money where to go so you can stop wondering where it went."
  – Dave Ramsey (80:21)

• Leveraging Compound Growth: Emphasize the power of investing in mutual funds with an average return of 10% to exponentially grow savings over time.

  "A lump sum, if you don't add anything to it, will double every seven years."
  – Dave Ramsey (80:33)

Notable Quote:

"If you're intentional, you can win with money."
– Dave Ramsey (General Theme)

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Conclusion

This episode underscores the significance of intentional financial planning, whether navigating marital financial separation, managing increased income, overcoming debt, or optimizing retirement investments. Dave Ramsey and Dr. John Deloney provide compassionate yet firm guidance, empowering listeners to take control of their financial destinies through disciplined budgeting, strategic investing, and fostering transparent relationships.

By applying these principles, listeners are encouraged to transform their financial habits, eliminate debt, build wealth, and nurture relationships anchored in mutual financial understanding and support.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "You separate them as if you're divorced."
  – Dave Ramsey (01:54)

• "Behavior is a language... these two behaviors say you're getting divorced."
  – Dave Ramsey (03:57)

• "Write down exactly in detail what we're going to do with $450,000 this year."
  – Dave Ramsey (15:10)

• "With the extra 250, you two look at each other deeply in the eyes and say, all right, how much of this 250 are we going to invest?"
  – Dave Ramsey (17:01)

• "Sell the car and sell the house."
  – Dave Ramsey (43:37)

• "Roth IRAs... are not subject to RMD."
  – Dave Ramsey (75:55)

• "You are a warrior princess, and it's time you act like it."
  – Dave Ramsey (59:50)

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key financial challenges and the pragmatic solutions offered by Dave Ramsey and Dr. John Deloney. Listeners gain valuable insights into managing complex financial scenarios with intentionality and strategic planning.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

Hey guys. Dave Ramsey here. Me and Dr. John Deloney are coming to a city near you on the Money and Relationships tour. It's happening soon, so don't wait. Get your [e-mail] tour. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey show where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Ken Coleman Ramsey, personality number one, best selling author and host of the new hit on Ramsey Network's Front row seat where he is interviewing big names and going really deep in these interviews. It's a wonderful show. Be sure you check it out. J.D. is going to start this hour in Dayton, Ohio. Hi, J.D. what's up? Hey, Dave.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Thanks for taking my call.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Sure.

[Caller (J.D.)]

It's honored to speak to you. You too. I have a question. Try to get through this. About five weeks ago, my wife, out of nowhere, said she wanted to separate. Came out of nowhere. Our marriage definitely had its ups and downs. We've always worked through it. Some other things I found out. But we're living apart right now. And about two weeks into this, she split up the finances completely without even telling me. So my question is, how do I best navigate this through this separation? Since we do, we are still legally and biblically married. How do we navigate handling finances? Right now.

[Dave Ramsey]

You separate them as if you're divorced.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And then if there is an answer to prayer and reconciliation and you get back together, you recombine them.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

You have direct deposit on your payroll.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yes. And so does she.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Go up, go open a new checking account and have your. Have your check to it sent to your checking account.

[Caller (J.D.)]

But the thing that I don't. That I'm wary of. She can see what I'm doing, but I can't see what she's doing.

[Dave Ramsey]

Not if you do that.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yes, she has access to my account.

[Dave Ramsey]

Not anymore. You're going to go close that and open a new account because it's a.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Because it's a joint. It was a joint account.

[Dave Ramsey]

Close it.

[Caller (J.D.)]

I'm just like. But she basically wants to continue paying down our debts.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, that's her problem. She's the one causing all this. So you asked me what you should do. What you should do is separate as if you are getting divorced. You should go open a new checking account, have direct deposits sent over there. And then you pay what bills you're agreeing to pay during this separation while you negotiate the terms of the divorce. Who gets what bills?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

If all of that gets sidetracked and you end up reconciling. Then you just go back to a joint account and you reconcile.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Because that's what I'm hoping and praying for. We're both in counseling. We're seeing the same counselor, but separate. She's. There was an affair on, not my part, but I'm still willing to work through this. But I think the issue is our income is a lot different because I have a lot of chronic health issues, so I don't make as much. So the amount of debt that I have, I can't cover by myself. So that's why she was okay with like, hey, if you need money, we can, like, work as a team to get everything paid off.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I mean, you can send her a list of the bills that she needs to help you pay, but that doesn't mean you have to have combined checking accounts.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Because here, John Deloney taught me a saying, and he taught me by sitting at my right, like Ken Coleman is right now. He says that behavior is a language. I heard two very disturbing behaviors for the future of your marriage in this conversation so far. Not verbiage, but actual behaviors. Behavior number one, she's sleeping with someone else. Behavior number two, she separated the money without even telling you. None of these, these two behaviors say you're getting divorced.

[Caller (J.D.)]

I do have to say the. The affair was emotional and it's kind of on the back burner. And he's going back to his wife, so I think that's burning out.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And she separated the money, so I don't believe that yet. I hope that's all right and I hope you guys get back together and I hope you're able to work your way through this. You're part of it. But in the meantime, you said, what would I do with my money? I would separate it completely. I would just completely separate it. And then if there are some common things we need to work on, you'll write your check towards that. She can write her check towards that. But we don't need to have everything in one pile anymore because she's doing a lot of sudden emotional things that are not pointing towards reconciliation.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yeah. Because I think that what I didn't like is since I'm self employed, one part of our. We had like one big account, but we had like checking, saving, savings. Savings for like, my taxes, medical, housing, and she divided all of that up. So I don't even have everything that I need for to pay the tax. The tax bill that I have coming up.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, she, you know, she don't have that right. She can't take money out of that account that has your name on it in this situation. The divorce court won't undo that, and the judge would hand the money back to you.

[Caller (J.D.)]

So what a deal. Do you think I should sit down and just say, hey, what exactly is.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I think you try to get some clarity.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Exactly. Do you have.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, well, you know. And where's my dad gum money, by the way? Hello. That'd be something I'd want to know. Yeah. The money that was for my taxes, it just disappeared a minute ago. And we had set that aside for taxes. It needs to be there, and it needs to go to taxes. So I need that put back, like, now. And now you can't buy your boyfriend a car.

[Caller (J.D.)]

And there's about 20,000 set aside for. We're saving up for a home. 10,000 of that came from her boss, so I don't know what she care.

[Dave Ramsey]

Where it came from. So it's common property now.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you're. You have as much right to it as she does.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. So, you know, we. We have a $20,000 savings account. You can't just make off with that money. You don't have that option legally.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Because since we don't have kids, she was kind of wanting to push towards just doing the disillusion if it gets to that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Not the way this is working so far.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because she's much better at negotiating so far than you are.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Because I. Or you're right. And because I did speak to a divorce attorney. My family advised me to do that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yes.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Check my rights. And it sounds like going that route would be more expensive for her because she makes so much more money than me. And she's got a 401k.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's not more expensive for her. It means that you get what the law says you get in the event of a divorce. The other route, you get what she says she's going to give you because you're going along with everything. So now you need some help in your corner, dude. Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Jd, I'm just listening to this entire exchange with Dave, and I think you've got to separate hoping and praying for this marriage from protecting yourself. Protecting yourself doesn't mean that you can't hope and pray. So it's like, do the counseling, hope, pray, do everything you can that it does work out. But at the same time, you must protect yourself and stand up for yourself. In the midst of this, she's just rolling all over you, and it feels like in some cases. I heard you almost making excuses for. And I think you got to stop that, hoping for the best but also have some sense and protect yourself. So there's got to be a mental approach to this alongside the emotional and boy do I. My heart breaks for you, jd. I mean, I feel for you.

[Dave Ramsey]

I can't imagine.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But you need a mental strategy while you're dealing with this emotional mess. And that's what Dave's telling you.

[Dave Ramsey]

So my friend that does divorce counseling says that divorce turns a marriage into a business transaction. And so far in this conversation, you suck at this business. So you need to separate this protect and then come from a position of strength with an attorney in your corner of how we're going to reconcile or how we're going to split equitably under the law, not under what she wishes. She's got this fantasy in her head that is not reality and she's getting ready to find that out. This is the Ramsey Show.

[Dr. John Deloney]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co host today. Thank you for joining us. If you've ever run a business or are running a business or know someone that is, you know one thing. It's hard, it's rough, it's tough. As a matter of fact, when you become self employed, you will discover you have a jerk for a boss. That person will work you into the dirt. I mean, they will work you like a rented mule. It's crazy. Some of you don't even know what that means.

[Dr. John Deloney]

But anyway I know.

[Dave Ramsey]

So here's the thing. It's also a lot of fun. I've been running this business for almost 40 years now from a card table in my living room. And it's just a straight up. It's a dadgum adventure every day. There's always something wild and wacky that you don't see coming. It's a blast. And you need a path, a clear path to get through and to grow the business. We have developed that from our experiences at Ramsey and also coaching about 10,000 small businesses for the last decade or so through entre leadership. And the path is this. There's five proven stages of business, particularly small business, and there's six drivers that drive you through those five stages. In other words, if you understand that framework, you've got the baby steps for a small business. And I just did it in a book. The book's coming out April 15th. It's on sale right now. It's called build a business you love. Build a business you love. And we're gonna take you through this entree leadership framework and show you it's not going to make your business instantly easy. It's not an easy button. It's not a panacea, but it is a clear thing and it will at least tell you where you're going. It's good to have a map, even if the road is bumpy, right? And so we're going to show you how build a business you love. If you pre order it before April 15th, which is like right now, you would get 29.99 for the book and you get over $350 worth of free bonus items, including instant access to the entree leadership, hiring and fir, which is probably the number one sore spot in business hiring and firing process. Also, early access to the ebook itself and the audiobook on this book is pretty incredible. Yes, I did voice it, but we also did a bunch of enhancements to where it feels a little bit more like a podcast than an audiobook. And so you're really going to like that if you're an audiobook person. Pre [e-mail] or click the link in the description if you're on YouTube or on a podcast. Derek's in Florence, South Carolina. Hey, Derek. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Hey, Dave. Thanks for having me.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure. What's up?

[Caller (J.D.)]

So what's up is my current situation. I'm set to be inherited in my dad's business over the next 12 months. Right now, I work with him in the same business, so it's not like it's anything new as far as learning too much other than, you know, having a lot more payroll expenses. But my main question is really, that's gonna be a big change of income for me. It'll be roughly tripling my income or so I make about 150 right now, and I'll be making 450 to 550 or so over the next year. And there's going to be expenses in there, but it'll still be a lot of extra net income. So my question is really, I don't know exactly what I should be doing with extra income. Obviously, you know, I might. Would have some more expenses with marketing or something, but I, of course, want to be in a better financial position and not get too ahead of myself and, you know, just throwing money away. So trying to get some insight on what to do with that and trying to play my cards the best way I can.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. You're inheriting the business. Did your dad pass?

[Caller (J.D.)]

No, he's. I'm sorry. He's retiring, so he's been in the. We have an assurance agency together. I've been working with him the past 10 years, and he's looking at retiring sometime between the end of this year and beginning of next year, within the next 12 months. So he'll be giving the business to me. So I'll be inheriting his book of business, but, you know, the whole agency.

[Dave Ramsey]

So are you buying him out?

[Caller (J.D.)]

I'm not. No, he is giving it to me. I've offered to give him something in the past, actually, but he doesn't want to take my money. So that's.

[Dave Ramsey]

So it's. Basically, you're getting the book of business, and how many employees have you got?

[Caller (J.D.)]

We have. It'll be about four employees that we pay.

[Dave Ramsey]

So how's he going to eat? How's he. He's obviously built a nice retirement nest egg, huh?

[Caller (J.D.)]

He has. And he's done some. He's done some development. He's built a few development projects over the past few years, and so that's really his retirement egg right there and then, plus whatever he's had from insurance over the years.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right, cool.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yeah. So he'll be fine without anything here. He's. He'll be good.

[Dave Ramsey]

So basically he's. This is the. This is the transition. He's tossing you the keys and you got this puppy. So your question is how to handle the increase in income responsibly, right?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Correct. I've had a. You know, my history. I've always lived Pretty comfortably. But, you know, whenever I do get more money, I tend to spend it on things that are stupid and, you know, try to, you know, not spend more than I have.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm not.

[Caller (J.D.)]

I'm not in debt necessarily, but not having a whole bunch of extra. How old are you savings coming in? I'm 33.

[Dave Ramsey]

Are you married?

[Caller (J.D.)]

I am married. One kid.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. Well, here's the thing. Very few people do something stupid intentionally. So if left to a vacuum is where stupid sneaks in. And so what I mean is, is that you're being very wise right now. The opposite of stupid in that you say, okay, I need a plan for this, because if I don't have a plan, I'm gonna have a problem.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so what I would do is sit down with your wife and say, write down what we're going to do with $450,000 this year. What are we going to do with it? And. And then do that with it.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Well, and the thing is, you know, talk about some of the stupid things. You know, maybe not stupid things is not the right word, but we bought a house in the past two years that was certainly strucking our income. So a big portion of what we make right now goes to, you know, paying the mortgage.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Same thing applies. Okay. I now have $450,000 for the coming 12 months. Write down exactly in detail what I'm going to do with it. So you're telling me 150 is what you were making the house payments a strain? The house is a strain, so you may want to. Okay, we're going to raise our living budget to 200, which still leaves me $250,000. I need to decide what I'm going to do with. There's only three things you can do with money, by the way. Invest it, save it, enjoy it, and give it. And you probably ought to do all three.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

With the extra 250. So what? Out of that 250, you two look at each other with the kid in bed and the TV off and the phone's face down, and you look at each other deeply in the eyes and say, all right, how much of this 250 are we going to invest? How much are we going to spend on fun? And how much are we going to be outlandishly generous with?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yeah, and we've talked about it. One thing to the wife, she's always wanted to have, you know, barn in our yard. And we have. We have a few acres, so we can make that happen, I guess. But, you know, Trying to see how lavish. I guess we want to have a barn and, you know, pasture and everything in the backyard. So that's one thing we talked about wanting, you know, to have in the next five years, potentially.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, then let's say, all right, what's the barn going to cost? I got a five year plan. I need to set aside one fifth of that per year out of this money. That's an example of what we're talking about. So you guys need to, you know, right now, this is all up in the clouds and it's bouncing around inside your head. It does not have any organization. I'm telling you to write it down like it's a dadgum business plan.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, I want to add in here really quick. I'm listening to you, Derek. We know from research that whatever we focus on, in other words, we allow a thought to stay in our head and we fixate on that thought. Then what happens is, is our brain goes and takes pictures of it everywhere. So in other words, if you, if somebody starts their day off feeling like a victim, then the rest of the day their brain is going to go look for evidence of this thought. Now, this is like basic neuroscience. All right, now here's what's happening all throughout the conversation with you, Dave. I heard, I heard, Derek, I heard you say, I heard shame. I did dumb in the past. I did stupid in the past. And Dave would tell you, do this, lay it out, set a budget, you know, be intentional. And you kept coming back, too. And I just want to encourage you. I think you're so ashamed and so embarrassed, and I'm going to say a little bit of fear that you're going to do something dumb again. And it's because you're so focused on what you've done in the past instead of going, all right, Dave told me what to do. Have a written plan, and we're going to decide. And we're not going to let the wife and me get excited to talk about a lavish barn. No, we're going to say we'd like to have a barn. Here's what good, better, and best would look like. So I just want you to start focusing on that you aren't going to do something stupid in the future with money if you're intentional. I think that's got to be the new thought in your mind. I can be intentional with money, therefore I can win with money. And I think that'll change his perspective.

[Dave Ramsey]

Intentionally. Give some of it intentionally, save some of it, intentionally enjoy some of it. Be in agreement in detail with your spouse, exactly how much, and then live what you write down and you won't do stupid. Then you'll be fine.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

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[Caller (J.D.)]

Hi, Dave. Thanks for having me.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure. What's up?

[Caller (J.D.)]

I'd like your opinion on whether or not I should go back to baby step two and help my husband. I've been working the Ramsey for just under a year and so I'm a lot farther than him. I think I'm on six. So now that he's fully on board, I'm just wondering if I should go back and start helping him.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Yeah, you've been doing it wrong. So yes, you should, you should, you should have been with him all along. Your mirror, you're married. So definitely, definitely, you should combine your goals, you should combine your dreams, you should plan to be married a long time and you should, you know, combine all income, combine all problems and combine all solutions. And that's the fastest and the highest probability of a high quality marriage that becomes wealthy.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

The couples that do what you guys have been doing have a very low statistical probability in the data that we have of actually becoming wealthy. And generally it ends up in some kind of marriage problem.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because you're not. You're not dreaming together. You're not setting a future in your mind together. Does that make sense?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Caller (J.D.)]

And I've been trying to get him on board. It's just he's a little stubborn, so I can't force him. I couldn't, you know, just stuff it down his throat. I just listened to, like, the Ramsey personality books really loudly. And.

[Dave Ramsey]

Being obnoxious doesn't work either.

[Caller (J.D.)]

No, no, no. I wasn't trying.

[Dave Ramsey]

You listened really loudly. I heard you.

[Caller (J.D.)]

If we're in the car in a long trip, I just put one of the books on. I'm not gonna. 25 years.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Okay.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Wow.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Are you both four separate accounts or just him? You separated your money. Is that something you both have been for this whole time or just him? Because that's another issue here.

[Caller (J.D.)]

You mean separating the money?

[Dr. John Deloney]

You guys have separate accounts. You said his consumer debts. Dave said you need to do it together. I'm curious. Are you both on that same page, that you've always had separate accounts and you were fine with it, or is it him or you who's driving the separation of the accounts?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Well, when we were first married, all of our money was together, and he was kind of like, hands off. He's like, here's my paycheck. Just do whatever with it. But then we ran into some problems, and one of us had developed a major addiction problem, so the other one of us had to do it for safety purposes because I couldn't keep the bills paid without, you know, the money being in the account. So it was separated for a reason. But now that that's been resolved, I think we're in a great place to get our finances back together. It's just been so long now that it's kind of weird. You know what I mean?

[Dave Ramsey]

So I think we're moving forward.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's understandable. That makes a lot.

[Dave Ramsey]

It is awkward. I'll give you that. And that's fair. And the history you just laid out explains a lot, really. So and so that. That part's fair. The. But again, where you guys paint a detailed picture of what our life looks like 20 years from now. And then we combine forces to knock down blockers and achieve the goals to get to that life. And that creates not only an incredible relationship of trust and high levels of communication and respect, but it also actually increases the probability of that life that you pictured occurring. Because we find, you know, we studied 10,167 millionaires. One of the things we found among them was 89% said, My spouse and I work together, you know, and that's the proof in the pudding right there. I mean, it's like 9 out of 10 of them. So 10% found a way to get there without. With a reluctant spouse somehow or with a spouse that was a hard head or a spouse that didn't want to participate or a spouse that wouldn't listen or whatever. But. But 89% got there by the two of us looking like two adults saying, hey, let's talk about where we want to be. Let's get agreement on where we want to be, and then let's get in attack mode to get there.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Dave, you've done a lot of financial counseling crisis with couples. I'm going to bring this up for your take. But it feels like hearing what Kate just said, that this might be the last piece of the healing.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That she goes, okay, you've done your work, you've cleaned up, and now I'm going to trust you. And, boy, that forgiveness in the form of trust feels like the last piece of healing and hopefully restoration for them.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, and not only that, you know, he's more like my wife, Sharon. Sharon said, whatever you want to do, honey. Right. And one of the things we had to come up with was we said, okay, we just can't use that phrase anymore. You can't say that anymore because I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do whatever I want to do. I'm going to do whatever we want to do. And so you're going to have to speak up and I'm not going along with this. You're going to dump it on me because then if it's not right, you're going to blame me. And I'm not okay with that. When we agree together, I told you so leaves. And so I'm not taking the responsibility for this whole thing by myself. You're going to be with me. And I get it that I'm the nerd. I get it. I'm probably going to be the one executing a lot of the details of this and the one probably writes out the stupid spreadsheet. I'm that guy. I get all of that. But you're going to have a voice in this, a vote in this. And I don't even care if you want to. You still have to. You still have to say what we're supposed. What we are doing together. You have to Say it out loud. You cannot say whatever you want to do, honey. And, you know, it's kind of when you're young and you're married and your wife looks at you and says, whatever you want to do, honey. You kind of stick your chest out and go, of course I'll be them. I'll take care of everything, little lady. You know? And it's like, then you find out you're an idiot, and you really. I don't want to do everything I want to do. I want to do the stuff together. It's much more effective. I make better decisions with the other half of my brain plugged in. Called her. And so who can find a virtuous wife for her worth is far above rubies. The heart of her husband safely trusts her, and he will have no lack of gain. I'm convinced one of the reasons that we're very wealthy today after recovering from bankruptcy 30 years ago, is not just that we've made some money, but that we work together. I trust my virtuous wife and I have had no lack of gain. I mean, that proverb is playing out right in front of you boys and girls. So that's what it's about. And, Kate, I really like where y'all are having fun with this. You're laughing about it. I'll turn it up. I'm going to be obnoxious and turn up the books, the Ramsey books, too loud. And that's fun. And. And you know, you've worked through some tough stuff there in the past, and the verbiage that you use tells me it's probably way in the past. And Ken's probably exactly right that. That him saying, I'm going to participate in the decision making like a grown man. Not necessarily do all the detail stuff, because I can tell you Kate's the detail nerd. Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

No question.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. But him saying that is part of him coming past the former problems and saying, all right, my. I actually have an opinion and it does matter, even though I have that in my past.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's a part of his healing.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, it's. It's absolute restoration is what I'm hearing here.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yep. Amen. Amen. And that it's really, really powerful. Builds trust like you wouldn't believe. Joanna's with us in Youngstown, Ohio. Hi, Joanna. How are you?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Well, I'm drunk. Guide. Thanks for taking my call.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure. What's up?

[Caller (J.D.)]

So we, my husband and I, currently are doing the financial peace program, and we're trying to pay off debt My husband is an army veteran and he is now a owner, operator, semi truck driver. He went to buy a new truck at the beginning. He's planning on doing one this year. And they looked at our credit and our credit they said was too bad for him to get another loan for another good semi.

[Dave Ramsey]

Great.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Good.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Because now you're not that much further in debt. That was another big purchase.

[Caller (J.D.)]

But this has me terrified because all we have is $1,000 in savings as we're trying to pay off this debt.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good.

[Caller (J.D.)]

And if that truck does break down, sometimes to get it back over the road, you drop 40,000 to get it back over the road.

[Dave Ramsey]

In your business, you need to. In your business, he's running a business, you need to have retained earnings that are more than to cover repairs, a reasonable repair. But going and buying a new truck because this one might break and going another 40 or 50 or $100,000 in debt because this might break is a really stupid idea. So I'm really thankful you got turned down that. But over in his business, he needs some retained earnings to cover repairs because he's done over the road.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Truck driver.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's common sense. Absolutely. Put some savings over there. More than a thousand. This is the Ramsey Show.

[Dr. John Deloney]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co host today. Number one bestselling author and host of Front Row Seat. You should check it out on ramsey networks, on YouTube and podcasts, and all those places that you see that Ramsey Network thing, like the Ramsey Network app, which is free. All right. Samantha's in Springfield, Illinois. Hi, Samantha. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Thank you so much, Dave and Ken, for taking my phone call. I really appreciate your Time.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure. What's up?

[Caller (J.D.)]

So I have a bit of an interesting question. I am trying to figure out how to navigate graduate school as a non traditional student.

[Dave Ramsey]

Cool. What are you going to study?

[Caller (J.D.)]

So I am a bit ambitious in that I want to do a combined NDJD program.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Why?

[Caller (J.D.)]

So about a year ago, I did a. I volunteered for the county and I was working with amazing defense attorneys. And I love the work so much, I didn't realize how much I was going to enjoy it. So I started assisting them with case files. And I mean, when I came home, I was just super excited.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what's wrong with just going to law school?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Nothing, actually.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

All right, so why the ambitious? Maybe explain that to us. What's the reason for going and getting this particular drought?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Before I wanted to be a lawyer, I was pretty headset on becoming a doctor. I currently have an associate's degree in psychology. And just a little bit about me. I have two children, they are both in elementary school and I do work full time. I work from home. So that has been really helpful with navigating school. And I will be starting my bachelor's degree here in the fall. And currently how that's going to be paid is 60% of it is going to be grants. 30% of it is going to be scholarships through the university, and the rest of it will be paid for.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's great. But here's my question. But here, let me jump in. Because you asked us, you know, for our thoughts on how to do this. And so my question is, why are we doing this? I mean, I understand you initially wanted to be a doctor, but now it sounds like you've fallen in love with the legal side of things. Where do you want to be 10, 15, 20 years from now, MD?

[Dave Ramsey]

Because if we don't, being a medical doctor and a lawyer simultaneously serves zero purpose.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, and I was expecting some unicorn description here, and you don't have that. So where do you want to be 10 years, 15 years from now? Doing what?

[Dave Ramsey]

Law or medicine?

[Caller (J.D.)]

So I currently work for a hospital here nearby, and I would love to continue working for them. I just thought that as far as working in their legal department, that it would be really beneficial for me to have a medical background as well.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Not at all.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, no.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Any doctor would tell you that it's not going to make you a better lawyer.

[Dave Ramsey]

You need to be smart enough to grasp the issues in the medical field of law. But you don't have to go get an MD to be an effective lawyer in the medical Community? Not at all. No. That's like saying I have to be an architect to represent architects in the law field. No. You know, or I have to be an engineer to represent an engineer as a lawyer. No, absolutely not. No. I mean, I think you need to decide what you want to do. And it's all over the map. I think that's your issue. And then you can start. You've already figured out how to get the bachelor's under your belt with no debt. Okay. And then we say, okay, we're going to go to law school. All right. What kind of law school? It's obviously going to be a non traditional law school because you're not going to be able to do, you know, just. Just stop your life and go for two years with little kids and it's not, you know, so you're going to do some kind of a version. I don't. I don't know if it's still open here. We used to have a version here in Nashville that there was. That it was a night school, is what we used to call it, a night school. And you get your, you know, you can become an attorney. Pass the question.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I knew some of the guys that went through that and they made great lawyers because they were doing it as an adult. It wasn't theory. They were really digging in. And so something like that. And then figure out a way to fund it with your day job and like you've done on your undergrad with grants and other things. And that's the way to go. But I think you need some real clarity on. Because what you're asking to do, to go to law school in your situation is a very tough.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Oh, my gosh. It's a lot of time and money to.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're gonna really go through a lot. If you add anything else to that plate, the plate's gonna break. Yeah. And so we're asking you, don't add the MD to the plate.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, Dave's right, Samantha. You need to figure out the mountain. Let's figure out the mountain. And then the best way to climb said mountain. Let's give her. Let's give her my book. Find the work you're wired to do. It comes with the get clear assessment. This is going to give you tremendous clarity. When you get the results of this assessment in less than about 18 minutes, Samantha, it's going to make it really, really clear to you which choice to make. And I think you've got to listen to your heart here, not your brain. Try to do it all. Do the thing that lights you up.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And don't listen to your heart, to the point that your heart's telling you to do more than humanly possible in this process, because what you're laying out here is unbelievable. Jesse's in Seattle, Washington. Hi, Jesse. How can we help?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Hey, Dave, how's it going?

[Dave Ramsey]

Great, man. What's up?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Well, my question for you, I'm 19 years old. I own my own company. It's a contracting company here in the Seattle area. And I started about a year ago, and I just got my contractor's license here about two weeks ago. And my question for you being wintertime right now works kind of slow and very unpredictable. My question for you, should I go out and get another more steady job as well as working my company or since my expenses are pretty, pretty low right now and I can live on a pretty minimal amount, should I put my all into my company?

[Dave Ramsey]

What kind of contracting work have you been doing?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Just a general contractor. I do just about everything. Retaining walls, land clearing, concrete, Just about anything.

[Dave Ramsey]

Everything you just described is inside, so it's not everything outside, so it's not everything. There's inside work available, too.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay, so. Okay. Yeah, I understand that. So I do not do, like, inside work. Like, I don't build houses. I don't remodel anything. Everything I do is going to be outdoors.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, could you do commercial build outs, tennis tenant improvements on the inside during the winter?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yeah, I could. It's not something I've gotten into yet. It's not the know how for.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, you don't know.

[Caller (J.D.)]

That's exactly right. Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right. So I think that what I'm going to start to do is explore my business model and say if I'm going to only do exterior work and I'm in Seattle, I'm going to have to have something else to do during the winter.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Right.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yeah, totally. 100%. So I do have another. It's kind of a. It's not very steady. It's down at the rail yard in Tacoma. I work down there. When they have an excess of work, I may be working there like once a week or so. I mean, it's. It's, you know, it's 300 bucks a day. So just my works really un. Really not very steady right now. And, you know, so it's.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's kind of my.

[Caller (J.D.)]

What I'm.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Go get something. Go get something is the answer to your question. You need to be stacking cash if you're in a seasonal business. But I Would also say Dave was on something. I would see what you can do outside. What did you say the out outside work is? Real quick. Run through that real fast.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Land clearings, kind of my specialty. Gravel driveways, Concrete and retaining walls.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I thought I heard gravel driveways. You know what I think, though? I think you'd be surprised how you getting into interior flooring could be a. There's some transfer of some of that skill when you're. When you're talking about gravel driveways and, you know, leveling, stuff like that. I'd look into stuff like that too, you know, which is an extension of what Dave was saying. You know, you're doing interior flooring, uh, that's going on 12 months a year. And I think there's some transferable skills. So if I was you, I would be taking a list of paper today. And I go, what are my actual specific describable skills? Based on that work I've been doing so far, and with a little bit of training, a little bit of observation, I can transfer that skill. That's where the biggest bang for your buck is going to be. And you're actually doing what Dave told you to do, which is now diversifying your company.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I might take a job working for another contractor doing interior work of some kind to start to learn the skills.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And let that be your winter job.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I just think if you can do gravel driveway, you can do interior concrete. It's similar.

[Dave Ramsey]

Concrete's concrete. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. So, yeah, I think you're exactly right. But yeah, you need to diversify your product line. And the way to do that is go get those skills. That puts this hour of the Ramsey show in the books. Hey, you guys, health insurance costs are only moving one way, and that way isn't down. And if higher costs aren't enough, the wait times to see your doctor are longer. And it's harder than ever to get anything approved through the bureaucracy. So if you feel like the system is working against you, try a biblically based alternative to health insurance. Christian Healthcare Ministries. CHM is a health cost sharing ministry that's helped hundreds of thousands of families like yours take care of over $11 billion in medical bills since 1981. And CHM has also helped them stay true to their values and avoid miles of red tape. And CHM support goes far beyond meeting financial needs. They'll also help meet spiritual needs. Members become part of a family who will pray with them and for them when they experience a medical event. So listen, y'all, there's no better way to take care of healthcare costs. CHM programs start as low as $98 a month. So learn more today and [e-mail] budget. That's chministries.org budget live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsay show where we help people build wealth, do work that they love and create actual amazing relationships. God's and grandma's ways of handling money and life. That's what we're going to talk about here. It's a free call at 888-825-5225. Ken Coleman, number one best selling author, Ramsey personality and host of the Front Row seat, a new hit show on YouTube on the Ramsey Networks. Be sure and check him out. He's going to help me this hour. The phone numbers, call-882-55-5225. Greg's in Dallas, Texas. Hey Greg, how are you?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Hey Dave, how are you doing?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up?

[Caller (J.D.)]

So I've gotten myself into a situation where I have a couple hundred thousand in credit card debt and loans that I've let go delinquent. And my question is, do I let it sit there and fall off my credit report?

[Dave Ramsey]

My research showed maybe it falls off in seven years or do I attack it?

[Caller (J.D.)]

And the reason I ask that is we're kind of attacking my wife's debt and my truck payment and those debts are about 100,000 and we're using the snowball method starting that now to attack those debts. And I just cannot afford to pay these other debts. And part of my question may have.

[Dave Ramsey]

Been what the flip did you buy for $200,000 on credit cards?

[Caller (J.D.)]

A lot of stupid decisions and some bad luck. You know, just living the good life.

[Dave Ramsey]

And, and how old are you?

[Caller (J.D.)]

52 and my wife is 52. It's our second marriage.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's your household income?

[Caller (J.D.)]

She is a nurse. So she brings home take home 7, 500amonth and right now unfortunately I'm in between jobs, laid off and so I'm driving Uber and probably make four grand a month doing that.

[Dave Ramsey]

But what were you making at your old job?

[Caller (J.D.)]

On average it fluctuated since we've been together the past five years. I'd say on average 85, 000. We bought a house in January of 2021.

[Dave Ramsey]

And how the heck did you get a house?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Well, I didn't. I had great credit before all this, so I had outstanding credit my whole Life. I had 800 credit score and wasn't Delinquent on anything. So I bought the house. When we got into the house, it was a new build. The payment was around 3k. And then we got hit with the fact that the first year it was assessed on land value, so it shot up. And then we got the county appraisal went up. The first year before we were protected by homestead 60%. We appealed it and like all our neighbors and law, so the house payment shot up from 3k to about 4200. Since then it's appreciated quite a bit. So we removed the PMI and got it down where it's about 3500 right now.

[Dave Ramsey]

Now what's it worth?

[Caller (J.D.)]

That's the. That's the only good decision we made it. We owe 432 and it's worth on the low end, probably 625 or 650.

[Dave Ramsey]

Cool. And you have $200,000 in credit card debt and miscellaneous loans. And then you have a hundred thousand dollars on cars.

[Caller (J.D.)]

No, that's like my wife's card, so my wife's car credit cards and loans before we got married.

[Dave Ramsey]

And how much does your wife's car debt?

[Caller (J.D.)]

No car debt for her.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, how much? Because your cards.

[Caller (J.D.)]

That's the first stupid decision I made.

[Dave Ramsey]

How much is your car debt?

[Caller (J.D.)]

$42,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, yeah, so you're not gonna like me, but I'm gonna tell you the truth because I love you.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay, that's what I want to hear.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sell the car and sell the house.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yeah, well, the car.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, you're not gonna do either one, are you?

[Caller (J.D.)]

No, we, we, we are have discussed that.

[Dave Ramsey]

But yeah, you need to clean house because you got $200,000 in equity and you got a car. That's absolutely. So stupid. In the middle of this, you bought a house. That was stupid. In the middle of all this. The only thing that's good is it went up in value. And then you're telling me how you can't afford it. So, yeah, I'm gonna get your career back on the rails and I'm gonna pay off all my debt by selling the house and selling the car. And ha. Whoa, look at that. You're gonna be renting something and you'll be debt free. And now you start from ground zero instead of subterranean. You have a negative net worth that's substantial right now and you need to get back right side up on that. This is killing you. And no, it's not going to go away, by the way, in seven years because the. The rule on the credit reporting is not the legal Obligation, it's just how long do they report it? The legal obligation does not go away. And they can still sue your butt at the 10 year mark. They can sue your butt at the 15 year mark and they will. Okay, so this is not going away by just not dealing with it, putting your hands over your ears and going.

[Caller (J.D.)]

La la la la la la la la.

[Dave Ramsey]

Midst of the bears and the tigers, they're going to eat your butt. So yeah, it might fall off of your credit bureau, but it is from date of last activity, not date of, not date of default, and not date of anything else. So this is not going away until you fix it, Greg. So the way you fix it is you sell a car, you sell the house, you get your job back, you get to get to making 85,000. She's making 80, she's making over 120. And you put that together, you got a $210,000 income. You can rebuild, save up a good down payment with zero debt and buy a cash car with zero debt and then save up a good down payment on a house and get you a nice home that you can actually afford. But right now, your life is not good. I mean, you're even talking in circles. You have so much stress.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, that's what I heard. I heard the mindset of, oh, well. And I'm just going to, to close my mind off to all this other stuff over here and only focus on a little bit. And what's happening here is I'm not knocking him at all, but there is this defeatist attitude of fatalistic.

[Dave Ramsey]

I can't get out.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you're not stuck.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Which is why, by the way, he's staying in the Uber car a little bit too long. I'm not against Uber. Let me, let me say this. And I've talked to so many people, I feel like this is becoming more and more of a thing because it's an easy thing as far as stepping from being laid off or fired into something. And I'm all for that. However, if you're not careful, you get in that car and you're picking people up and you're staying busy and you kind of go, well, this is the best I can do right now. And you got to treat those temporary jobs as just that, temporary. You are getting after it to try to replace that income, not settling for a 50% cut and just reasoning it away. And that's the reality. I don't mean to be unkind. It's not a mean spirit. I'm saying that it's just, I know how the brain works, Dave. And activity starts to replace intentionality. And there's a big difference between activity and intentionality. In other words, someone tells me, well, ken, I submitted 200 resumes today. That's a bunch of activity, but that's not intentionality. You didn't go see somebody, you didn't go have coffee with somebody. And so that's what we got to be careful of, is not replace intentionality with activity.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. I want the temporary job to be something I hate.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Absolutely.

[Dave Ramsey]

So that it's temporary.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because I don't ever want to go back. I don't ever want to live like that again. I don't ever want to have to do that. I don't ever want to have to pay that price to pay my bills.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's a great point. You know, because it's. It's kind of nice rolling around in your car. Your car. Listening to your podcast, picking people up. That's.

[Dave Ramsey]

I was gonna say you're kind of messing with our audience here because, I mean, this is who you think is listening to you, man. You just told a whole bunch of people not to do them. But, but seriously. Yeah, it's. Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Activity and intentionality. There's a difference.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. If you take three part time jobs to report, replace your old full time job, they should all make you want to go get your old full time job back. That's right. Or something better, but not something worse. You don't want to be doing that at 52 and then look up at 62 and you're still doing the same thing. So, Greg, you're probably not going to do what I told you to do, but you should. You should sell the car. A $45,000 car, and you're using it for a taxi. Wow. Think about that. Not a good use of money. This is the Ramsey Show. Hey, listen up. Everyone is at risk of identity theft. I don't care if you're a hermit living off the grid, listening to the show on a battery powered radio. All of your data collect by every company you've ever done business with lives online. Your bank, your doctor's office, retailers, the apps on your phone, the gas station where you have loyalty rewards. They all store your info online, making them ripe for a cyber attack or data breach. That's why I've been telling people for almost 25 years they need an ID theft protection plan. And the only one I've ever recommended is from Zander Insurance. They monitor your personal and financial info, even your home title and take over the work if you become a victim. It's the most thorough and affordable plan out there. I even have it for my family and our entire team. Visit Zander.com or call 800-356-4282. Listen, guys, I've heard just about every excuse for why folks think they can't get ahead with money. So let's go ahead and settle this right now. You get the final say on what happens with your money. That's why you have to start telling your money where to go so you can stop wondering where it went. So if you're gonna start winning with money, you have to get on a budget. The easiest way to get started and stick to it is with the EveryDollar budget app. It'll help you make a plan for every single dollar coming in and every single dollar going out every single month. And guess what? It's free. So no excuses. Download EveryDollar in the app Store or Google Play today. Money and relationships can be two of the biggest stressors in life. If you're feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or uncertain, you're not alone. Dr. John DeLoney and me, Dave Ramsey, we're going on tour to six cities. With the Money and Relationships tour, you're going to learn how to take control and shift your mindset around money and relationship relationships for good. It's going to be a different kind of experience at these events. We're going to put up a list of topics before the show starts for the live audience, and you're going to vote with your app and then we're going to do the topics you vote for. I like that. That's kind of fun.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I like that.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's a little bit. A little bit stressful. But I think we can do it. Like me and John are. Add both enough that we can just kind of pull from the holster and shoot and re. Holster, Right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I was going to say the tool belt's got plenty of tools.

[Dave Ramsey]

Hey. Louisville, Kentucky, April 21st. Get your tickets. Durham, North Carolina, April 23rd. Atlanta, April 25th in the Fox Theater.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, that's great venue.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's a cool venue. It's a great old venue down there. Phoenix, Arizona. We're gonna be over there May 5th. Fort Worth on May 7th. In Kansas City on May 9th. Don't wait. Tickets are selling out on these. They're not yet gone, but you don't want FOMO on this, so there you go. Or, yeah, you just. You just do want to be there. That's how that works. Go to ramseysolutions.com/tour or if you're on YouTube or podcast, click.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Will there be any fine bourbon on the stage in Louisville?

[Dave Ramsey]

I doubt it. Unless it's backstage.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You're not bringing it on stage.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm not sure that I need my brain dumbed down by that in this environment.

[Dr. John Deloney]

No, that would definitely matter.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm sure I don't need my brain dumbed down in that environment, but, yeah, it could happen. Yeah, Louisville has access to some of that. Liz is in Dallas, Texas. Hey, Liz, how are you?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Oh, my gosh. Hi. I'm so nervous. Okay. So I've been with my boyfriend. I've been with a man for four years now. He's 17 years older than I am, and it's been quite emotionally abusive. And I'm trying to leave, but I have $23,000 in debt. I only really count $6,000 of that because 17 of it is car, which I'm. I feel like y'all are going to tell me to get rid of it, but I don't want to. I'm just trying to figure out how to navigate, like, paying off this $6,000 because it's affecting me of getting. It's affecting me from getting a place of my own right now. And I have a bonus from work coming up and I'm just like, I don't know how to navigate.

[Dave Ramsey]

How old are you?

[Caller (J.D.)]

I'm 27.

[Dave Ramsey]

And how much money do you make, Connie?

[Caller (J.D.)]

I make 2,400amonth.

[Dave Ramsey]

Doing what?

[Caller (J.D.)]

I work for a very, very large health insurance company as a customer advocate.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so you work 40 hours?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yes.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Do you have any kind of education or training?

[Caller (J.D.)]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Well, one of you're a high school graduate?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

No college?

[Caller (J.D.)]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Dr. John Deloney]

All right, I'm going to jump in quick because there's some money stuff that Dave's going to get to. But I want to tell you, one of the strategies here, you've got to be thinking quickly is raising your income.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

How do you take the skill set that you have? You're at a big time healthcare company, so you're in the building. How can you move up within the building? What skill sets can you add without going to college? What other types of work can you do to where we can get that income up by a minimum of, I want to say 25 to 50% is your goal. You need more income. You just don't have much to work with.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're making 15 an hour.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's not good.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you know the going rates. 20 at Target.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Well, I technically make like 1975 before taxes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so 2400.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yeah. Yeah. I live, like, two hours from Dallas, so it's, like, pretty good for here.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Where's your family, hon?

[Caller (J.D.)]

My dad lives in a motel about an hour away, and my mom lives in Missouri, and she lives off the government, so she's not very.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Are you plugged into a church there in your community?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. I want you to go sit down with a pastor in the next three days and ask them for some help to get you out of there.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's not to pay off your debt. I think we need to do two things. We need to. You may need to move to a more metro area where you can get a better job. And. But. But you can't stay there. You can't stay there another another two weeks. I want you out of that house.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Did not. Let. Stop. Whoa, whoa. You didn't hear me. You did. You just. You just drove right past that. And I saw you. I saw your brake lights as you went around the corner. Okay? I'm telling you, you've been putting this off. And, you know, the situation that you're in is evil and wrong, and you need to leave. Do you hear me, daughter?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Get out of there now. And don't talk to me about. I'm going to trade my safety and my mental health for a freaking car. Get in the car and drive to Dallas and get a job. Get in the car and talk to your pastor this week and get some help to get out of this situation because he has stolen your confidence.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Almost like I've done this before, haven't I?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Your dad's in a hotel. Your mom's on government, so you got nobody in your corner that's telling you you're a champion. And I'm telling you you're a champion and you deserve better than you're getting.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. You've never seen anybody in your family win, and you're going to be the first one that goes and wins. You're going to go do something, okay? I want to hear. I want to hear a hero story about you from you, six months from today, that you're making 25, $30 an hour, you're standing alone with your shoulders square and your chest stuck out with pride, and the debt is gone and you're getting control of your life. Okay?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

You can't sit in this cesspool anymore. You're sitting in sewage. Do you smell it? Yeah, I smell it. From over here.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You don't need this guy to win. You don't need him. And he's become this weird support system for you that he's abused and manipulated. So you got to make a clean break. I'm with Dave. Clean break.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Go see a pastor in the neighborhood right now. And a loving pastor at a good church in your neighborhood will take care of you, honey. And they'll get you set up and get you out of there and then help you get the next steps into a better position. Making more money work. I want you working more than 40 hours, and I want you making 25, $30 an hour, and you can clean up this mess, and you can create a sustainable life, Stand alone on your own. You are a warrior princess, and it's time you act like it. It's time you go be the champion God designed you to be right now. And this has got to change, kid. And it's not gonna change until you change it. It's not gonna change until you believe. What I'm telling you is to be true, that you are worth being treated well. You're worth it. And so you need to go get yourself in a position where everyone that looks at you says, this woman demands that I treat her well. She's a warrior princess, and she won't tolerate anything else. And that's who you're becoming as I speak right now. That's who you're becoming. And you've got to go do that, and you got to go do it now. You hang on. Christian will pick up, and we'll find out the little town that you're in and see if we've got some connections there with some local pastors. And we'll help you get connected with one of them and get some people in your corner that aren't the kind that you currently have in your corner. You need a different. You need a different crew, kiddo. Wow. What a mess. Open phones here at Triple 8-825-5225. Ken is hokey as it can be, but this idea of what you believe matters more than the actual reality, because you end up creating your reality is what you believe. And if you believe that you're not worthy, then all of a sudden, you're not worthy. When you start to believe you're worthy, then you become worthy.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Thoughts are very powerful, and our brain goes and finds evidence to give truth to these thoughts. So change your mind is a huge part of changing your life. You hate to see this out of destruction. Her parents and that poor girl, she Just got to believe that she's worth it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Amen. This is the Ramsey Show.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Listen, I know a lot of you would rather watch paint dry in slow motion than file your taxes, but thankfully.

[Dave Ramsey]

You don't have to dread filing when.

[Dr. John Deloney]

You'Ve got Ramsey Smart Tax. It comes packed with everything you need to file online before the big deadline. That means all major federal forums and deductions are covered with no hidden fees. Plus, with Ramsey Smart Tax, you can save up to 70% compared to other tax software out there.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's a no brainer.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Just go to ramseysolutions.com smarttax and see how simple tax filing can be. That's ramseysolutions.com smarttax.

[Dave Ramsey]

Our question of the day is brought to you by why refi? Are defaulted private student loan payments dragging you down? Why refi could help save you thousands of dollars. Visit why refi.comramsey to see how they can help. That's the letter Y r e f y.com Ramsey might not be available in all states.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Today's question comes from Daniel in Oklahoma. My church is very big on encouraging its members regarding tithing. Our church leadership recently said, do not focus on investment for retirement, but focus on investment given to church and the word of God. Retirement investment can go up and down, but investment in your church and God's word will always prosper. Should we stop investing in order to fund our local church? Well, if all caps, if a leader of the church said this to an individual, to you, or corporately from the platform, if they said this, this is not biblical, Dave. And so the answer would be a resounding all caps. No from us.

[Dave Ramsey]

It would be a resounding change churches. Yeah, this is if someone's doing that borderline apostasy. Let's walk through what portion of this is accurate. And I don't know if you've twisted this or not, Daniel, or you heard it through a different lens of some kind. So I'm not positive what church leadership has said other than what you told us. Okay, so we have to go on what you told us because it's the only information we have now. Number one, the tithe is not in place of retirement. The tithe is a tenth of your income. The word, when you look it up in the Hebrew or in the Greek, Jesus used the word tithe twice. When you look it up, it literally means 10th. It means 10%. Evangelical Christians have taught for over a thousand years that we believe that a tithe, a tenth of our income goes to our local church. To support the work of God. So if you're attending a church, you're an evangelical Christian. That's a standard teaching in a Baptist church, in a, you know, any kind of normal Protestant church out there that a tenth of your income. Standard evangelical belief and teaching. I've taught it for 30 years. And I tithe a tenth of my income to my local church. Okay? That's what I believe. I believe that to be biblically correct, above that 10% is not more tithe, because by definition you can't be more. You can't say, I'm going to tithe more than 10% because the word means 10%. So anything above that is called an offering to support the kingdom of God or to support the community work that the church is doing, which is good work usually. And so, yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. And you do want to be doing a portion, if not a good portion of your generosity in your budget to things that are eternity oriented, where moth and rust don't destroy, which this person said, retirement investment can go up and down, but investment into the kingdom of God. They said church and God's word. You're not actually giving God's word money. You're following God's word when you give money into God's kingdom. God's word is the scriptures. You don't give the Bible money. It's incorrectly stated. So that's why I'm kind of thinking, Daniel, you've misinterpreted this or heard some of it wrong. I don't know. I hate to accuse your pastor of straight up craziness, but this is the way you presented this. It sounds like crazy, okay? So yes, I tithe and yes, you should put money where moth and rust don't destroy. You should put money towards things that matter in eternity, not things that matter short term. And retirement compared to eternity is short term. And the Bible says you should save for your needs. In the house of the wise are stores of choice, food and oil. The diligent prosper. These are actual scriptures from the Bible that I just quoted. And so wise people save money for a rainy day. They save money for purchases, and they save money in our society to retire with dignity so they don't have someone else having to take care of them. They don't become a charity case of the government or a charity case of their church because they took care of themselves. They were wise, they were diligent, and they prospered. And in the house of the wise are stores of choice, food and oil. So the Bible very clearly teaches to tithe, to invest money into God's kingdom where moth and rust does not destroy. And the Bible teaches to save and invest God. It is the Lord your God, it says in Deuteronomy, that gives you the power to build wealth. Hmm. How is that consistent with give it all to the church and don't save any for retirement? It's not consistent. That's as you said in the opening part on this, not biblical. Okay, so this sounds like a money graph the way you presented it. But that could be that it's how it felt to you and you changed the words around to match your feeling. I don't know what was really said by church leadership here. I know what you say they said. And again, I have to go on that because I don't. But I don't know many churches that would say this.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I agree with that.

[Dave Ramsey]

And we work with tens of thousands of churches across America and almost none of them say something like this. This is a. So if someone's actually saying this, it's probably some kind of sick, toxic, little small church. There's something going on that's wrong. If they're actually saying this, give us all the money, don't save anything for retirement and God will take care of you. That is not what the Bible says. It doesn't say that. And so we're not going there. But do I believe in tithing? Yes. Do I believe in giving to eternity? Yes. Do I believe giving to eternity is more important than saving for retirement? Yes. But it's also important that you do both. According to God's love letter to me, which is called the Bible, my heavenly Father, which if we being evil, know how to give our kids good gifts, how much more so our Father in heaven, Our Father says that loves us, that the diligent prosper and that in the house of the wise are stores of choice, food and oil. Wise people save money, diligent people prosper. It's the Lord your God that gives you the power to build wealth. This is all from his mouth, not from your preacher's mouth. And so that's what you can measure this stuff against is figure out, okay, to what extent is church leadership out of line with what the scripture says? And if they're too far out of line and it seems to be self serving, that's a disqualifier as a place to go.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

You need to leave.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Full stop that, you know, you don't hang out in a place that's got you know, they're trying to milk the cows every Sunday.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's manipulative.

[Dave Ramsey]

Trying to shear the sheep every Sunday. That's right.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's evil.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's just nuts. But is it wise? And I wish more pastors would do a better job of teaching the importance of giving versus consumption. Because it's better for you. If you're listening to me, you will have a better life if you consume less as an American, and we consume massive amounts in this country, we spend more on our dogs and cats than most people in other countries spend raising their children.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Now you've gone and stepped in it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I know. I did. Literally. And so, no pun intended there. And I've got a dog that I like more than most humans. But that doesn't matter. I mean, we consume. And I'd love for us all to talk about consuming a little less and being a lot more generous. It was just a couple of percentage points. You could shake this entire country up in ways that would blow your freaking mind. If we said, okay, I'm gonna cut back on PET and Christmas and Halloween by 5%. You can fund entire children's hospitals for two years with that amount of money. It's hundreds of millions of dollars. Would I love preachers to talk more about that and less about and more about giving into the kingdom of God and the work in the community and charitable work. Yes. But I don't want you doing it this way. If this guy's really doing this, I'm gonna call him out, say, no, honey, you're not following the word of God, and I'll challenge you on that. And I actually know what I'm talking about. And you don't want to get an argument with me on this. It's the only thing I've studied for the last 40 years. I actually know what I'm doing. This is the Ramsey Shaft. Hey, guys, good news. Presale is on now for my new book, build a business you love. If you're a business owner, you know running a business is hard. That's why I wrote this book, to share what we learned over the last 30 years so business owners can grow your business faster with fewer mistakes. Pre order your copy today and you'll get access to over $350 in bonus items only at Ramsey Solutions ramseysolutions.com store pre order today. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co host today. Open phones at 512-55225. Anthony's in Portland, Oregon. Hey, Anthony. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Mr. Dave. Hey, thank you for having me on.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure. What's up?

[Caller (J.D.)]

Well, I have a question. I am currently on a plan right now to pay off my house in.

[Dave Ramsey]

The next 20 months.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Every penny that we've saved, we've dumped into this house. We've made extra payments and we are currently looking at kind of the end of our mortgage, which is so satisfying.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wonderful.

[Caller (J.D.)]

It is. My question, though is my company offers a 403B and a 457 and I'd like to start maxing those out instead.

[Dave Ramsey]

Of my house payment.

[Caller (J.D.)]

But someone told me that, you know, when I'm ready to retire, 15 or 20 years from now, I'm going to get hit with so many this big balloon required minimum distribution payment that it's not worth investing in just those accounts. I should look at something in something different. I'm just wondering what your advice would be on that.

[Dave Ramsey]

How old are you? I'm 49.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Oh, good.

[Dave Ramsey]

What do you, what do you make?

[Caller (J.D.)]

I make about 120. My wife makes about 250.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And you have only 403 Bs and 457, no 401ks available?

[Caller (J.D.)]

My wife does, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

We have a.

[Caller (J.D.)]

We have two Roths. We each have our own. We've got probably 70,000 on our Roth. We have. I. I currently have about 80,000 in my 403B.

[Dave Ramsey]

Does your 403B have a Roth option?

[Caller (J.D.)]

It does not.

[Dave Ramsey]

Does her 401K have a Roth option?

[Caller (J.D.)]

It does not.

[Dave Ramsey]

Really?

[Caller (J.D.)]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because 80% of the 401ks now offer Roth. Hers doesn't now that I know it.

[Caller (J.D.)]

We haven't double checked that, but I.

[Dave Ramsey]

Double check it because I think he probably does. All right, so we won't number one. Number one is we want to do Roth if we can because it solves this problem. Roth IRAs, Roth 401ks, Roth 403bs are not subject to RMD. RMD only applies to traditional. Now, RMD stands for required minimum distributions that have to begin at 73 years old. So what it amounts to is when you put money in a traditional 403, you do not pay taxes on the money you put in and you do not pay taxes on the growth until you withdraw it. If you have not withdrawn it prior to 73, they require you to begin taking withdrawals. A required minimum distribution because they want their tax money. If it's in a Roth, it's tax free and there is no required minimum distributions.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Okay. And I'm nervous about getting hit with this. If we stay with a 457, a 400, 301.

[Dave Ramsey]

Here's the thing. The 457 is a deferred comp. It works differently.

[Caller (J.D.)]

But.

[Dave Ramsey]

But 403, when you retire, you could roll it to a Roth IRA and pay your taxes then if you want to.

[Caller (J.D.)]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Dave Ramsey]

But here's the required minimum distributions are not huge. It's a table. There's a little factor, a little table of factors. And when you turn 73, it gives you your life expectancy. And you pull that table, that factor off the table, and you multiply it and you got a million dollars in there. You're not cashing out 300,000 at 73 years old. That's not that. It's a small amount, okay? But they begin making you take the thing down to where they get their tax money before you're supposed to die. According to this table, that's what it amounts to. So it's not that punitive. It's not the end of the world. But the way to avoid it is start moving stuff to Roth and having more and more and more in Roth and less and less and less in Traditional. Whoever told you to not Invest because of RMDs does not know what they're talking about. You should invest even if you have RMDs, okay? Because they're not that punitive. I mean, it's not going to destroy your nest egg. It's just you're going to have to pull out some every year and pay taxes on what you pull out. That's all it is.

[Caller (J.D.)]

And do I do that after I.

[Dave Ramsey]

Retire at 73 years old? You're required to do required minimum distributions, RMDs. And it's really. I mean, if you. If you want to learn it, you can understand it in about 10 minutes. If you just Google it and look at it, or if you sit down with your financial advisor, they can walk you through it. It's really not that much to it. It's not that big a deal. And it's not a reason to not do investing. It is a reason to do Roth if you can. The more Roth you have, the less you have to deal with that. And by the way, Ken, one other benefit I'm now starting to understand at 64, and I hadn't really thought of it before, but it turns out it was genius, accidentally, was that when you die and you leave an inherited IRA to your family, leave a million dollars in an IRA or in a 401k, inherited becomes an inherited IRA. The Secure act under Biden requires now that inherited IRAs are distributed over a period of 10 years. So if I leave a million dollars to my kids, they have to. In a traditional IRA or 401k, they have to take out $100,000 a year for 10 years, and they have to pay taxes on it as they take it out. If I leave them a Roth, it's tax free. It's not subject to that. It does not have to be unpacked. It can sit there and continue to grow tax free. And. Or if they do cash it in, there's zero taxes on it because it's tax free. So accidentally moving everything into Roth not only avoids rmd, but it also is a wonderful estate thing for the kiddos and the grandkids. They get this money and it's all tax free. They don't have a tax burden coming with their inheritance through a retirement plan. So, you know, Roth, Roth, Roth, Roth, Roth, Roth, Roth is what the moral of this story is. It's the way to go. So anything you can put over there, your personal Roth. If she's got a 403B or 401K, that's a Roth. Talk to your. Your plan Administrator on the 403B, they may have instituted a Roth option you don't know about. You check on it and start just chunking all your money into Roth for those two reasons, if nothing else. Not to mention the fact that there's no taxes on it. It's wonderful. Yes.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Oh, it's music to my ears. I love hearing no taxes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Uncle Sam doesn't get his bite of my cookie jar, and that irritates you.

[Dr. John Deloney]

I love that you laid that out for me, because I didn't know that either. But that's why they're forcing that is so that they can get taxes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. They want their money.

[Dr. John Deloney]

They want our money.

[Dave Ramsey]

Pay me now, pay me later, pay me off.

[Dr. John Deloney]

It's not their money.

[Dave Ramsey]

Then pay me again when you die. Pay me, pay me, pay me, pay me, pay me. Well, maybe not so much anymore, but now we'll see. Wow. Pretty crazy. Pretty crazy. Awesome. Open phones at Triple 882-55-5225. You jump in and, guys, here's a fun thing. You can do this. If you're sitting there, the guy's 50. He says, 49.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah, 49.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I think he said he had a hundred and something thousand dollars saved. Right?

[Dr. John Deloney]

He. His wife had 300,000 and he had about 120 or. Yeah, about a hundred thousand.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so let's Say they got a half a million dollars.

[Dr. John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Pretty close. Yeah. They're 49. If it's invested in good mutual funds, you guys can remember this formula, okay? If you're invested in good mutual funds and it's making 10% or a little more on average, which it should be because the markets average more than that. If you're making 10% or a little more, that lump sum, if you don't add anything to it, will double every seven years. So they're 49 at 56, they got a million at 63. 63. Help me there. There you go. They got 2 million. At 70, they got 4 million. So this question of RMDs or inherited IRAs, it starts to be 8 million bucks that we're dealing with here. If they don't add anything to it and they live up into their 80s and they keep investing it in good growth stock mutual funds that have a market paced return, that's where they're going to be. And so those of you that you can kind of take, that lump sum doubles every seven years, plus what you add to it, wow, you can get there. In other words, it's not too late, you know, Dave, am I too old to save money? Not if you're still sucking wind. You just keep at it, baby. You're never too old till you can't suck wind anymore and then it's over.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's good.

[Dave Ramsey]

Keep at it, keep at it, keep at it, keep at it. There's something to do. There's some. Listen, if you've got some money, there's always an opportunity to be generous. And if you're broke, there's not an opportunity to be generous. Keep that in mind. Broke people can feed hungry people. People, I mean, rich people can feed hungry people. Broke people can't.

[Dr. John Deloney]

That's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

So there you go. Let's think about this. This is the Ramsay show.