"I've Been Doing OnlyFans For 3 Years And Want Out"

Summary

The Ramsey Show: Episode Summary

Episode Title: "I've Been Doing OnlyFans For 3 Years And Want Out"
Date: January 21, 2026
Hosts: George Campbell, Rachel Cruze (Ramsey Network)
Main Theme:
This episode of The Ramsey Show centers on personal finance questions from listeners, with a particular focus on a young woman looking to transition out of work with OnlyFans as she prepares for motherhood. Throughout the episode, George and Rachel provide practical and empathetic guidance on leaving adult content platforms, budgeting, managing relationships and money, and making critical decisions around debt, family, and long-term financial freedom.

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Main Theme / Purpose

The episode’s chief focus is helping callers take control of their finances and lives—no matter their past financial or personal decisions. Highlights include nuanced, non-judgmental advice for someone seeking to leave OnlyFans, as well as practical steps for breaking cycles of debt, managing familial obligations and boundaries, and sound strategies for building wealth for the future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Leaving OnlyFans: Daisy’s Journey (00:45–09:01)

• Caller Daisy (Phoenix, AZ, 21 years old): Has been on OnlyFans for 3 years and wants out due to pregnancy and desire to be a stay-at-home mom.
• Key details:
  • Earning ~$1,000/month from OnlyFans.
  • In a committed relationship; shares finances with her boyfriend, who earns ~$4,000/month; combined finances, no debt, little in savings except a $20,000 fund held by her mother.
• Key insights:
  • Easy to replace OnlyFans income: Rachel and George stress she could replace $1,000/month through numerous other jobs (e.g., Uber Eats, part-time work).
  • Freedom from emotional burden: Rachel emphasizes the emotional weight and loss of dignity Daisy feels continuing with OF; both hosts urge for immediate account closure.
  • Marriage and Finances: The hosts encourage Daisy and her boyfriend to get married before the baby arrives for stability and legal clarity, regardless of insurance complications.
  • Boundaries with finances: Rachel cautions against fully combining finances prior to marriage and urges conversations about shared responsibilities.
  • Dealing with partner’s involvement: Daisy reveals her boyfriend also participates in OF. Rachel and George express concern, advising counseling and community support for a healthy transition out of this lifestyle.
• Notable Quotes:
  • Rachel Cruze (06:16): “There’s something trapped in there for you, freed up from you... when that gets closed down, there’s something, a dignity that gets placed back into you and who you are.”
  • George Campbell (06:28): “This is not your identity. It never was... Shut it down today as a line in the sand to yourself.”
  • Caller Daisy (06:55): “Every time I go do it, I just have a complete breakdown and just cry about how much I don’t want to do it.”
  • Rachel Cruze (08:27): “Listen to your gut. Something’s telling you to get out... I’d do some deep premarital counseling. I don’t like that the guy you’re marrying is okay with all of this.”

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2. Family and Student Loan Debt Dynamics (10:20–19:39)

• Caller Shane (Vegas): Parents agreed to pay his student loans, causing family tension as his mother expresses resentment despite his father’s ongoing payments.
• Key Insights:
  • Boundary setting: Rachel suggests a clear, kind conversation about boundaries with his mother to reduce passive-aggressive interactions.
  • Family finances: Hosts highlight the importance of clear agreements and never loaning/gifting money you can’t afford to part with.
• Notable Quotes:
  • Rachel Cruze (12:39): “It starts to erode the relationship.”
  • George Campbell (13:56): “I don’t control y’all’s money. This is a marital problem [between your parents].”

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3. Aggressive Debt and Unrealistic Retirement Goals (21:33–31:02)

• Caller Trina (Florida, late 30s): Wants to retire by 40, but has $44,000 in debt after bankruptcy.
• Key Insights:
  • Setting realistic priorities: Rachel advises focusing on becoming debt-free over early retirement or risky property investments.
  • Changing habits: Trina admits a pattern of using debt; Rachel encourages a complete mindset overhaul for lasting change.
• Notable Quotes:
  • Rachel Cruze (27:21): “Learn to live within my income and my means... No more unwise decisions about purchases.”
  • George Campbell (28:42): “Creative financing just means ‘hey, I’m going to do stupid.’”

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4. Life Insurance Confusion and Best Practices (33:28–41:41)

• Caller Miriam (NYC): Confused about term vs. whole life insurance and various policy “riders.”
• Key Insights:
  • Keep It Simple: George and Rachel reiterate only term life insurance is needed (20–25 years), no riders, and regular reviews as income/family grows.
• Notable Quotes:
  • George Campbell (34:29): “I would cancel yesterday [a Northwestern Mutual policy].”
  • Rachel Cruze (36:36): “Are you guys in good health? Because the great thing about term life is it’s so inexpensive.”

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5. Household Decision-Making & Emergency Funds (44:15–52:37)

• Caller Joe (Huntsville, AL): Significant savings ($122k) but married to a cautious husband afraid to use funds to pay off $23k student debt before buying a home.
• Key Insights:
  • Breaking scarcity mindsets: Rachel and George walk through the math and the emotional roots of financial fear, urging collaborative budgeting and scenario planning.
• Notable Quotes:
  • George Campbell (49:56): “His fear is you wouldn’t actually save it. It would just take the discipline.”
  • Rachel Cruze (51:09): “There’s something about hitting goals together as a couple that’s so unifying... what could be something that you guys do together that’s both a little uncomfortable?”

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6. Career, Car Dilemmas & Debt Snowball (54:34–63:43)

• Caller Julia (Denver): Struggling to pay off debt due to needing a second car for her husband’s new job.
• Key Insights:
  • Short-term focus: Pause debt snowball to save up and purchase a car in cash in order to enable greater future income; do not fall into “I had to take out a car loan.”
  • Marital teamwork: George and Rachel celebrate the couple’s competitive spirit, encouraging them to support one another in a tough season.
• Notable Quotes:
  • Rachel Cruze (62:00): “That’s the gazelle intensity we talk about... just deep, deep sacrifice.”

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7. When Business Revenue Collapses & Facing Bankruptcy (65:04–74:25)

• Caller Robert (Columbia, SC): Business dropped from $6,000/month to $2,000/month. Facing bankruptcy, back taxes, and disagreement with his fiancée about cutting lifestyle.
• Key Insights:
  • Storm mode: Rachel calls for “all hands on deck”—trim all expenses, everyone contributes to income, and take the highest-earning job available (“go do the drilling thing, $10,000 a month”).
  • Teamwork in crisis: Rachel bluntly says his fiancée “needs to grow up and understand how math works.”
• Notable Quotes:
  • Rachel Cruze (74:25): “You don’t get to live in ... ‘I want to keep up my lifestyle.’”

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8. Tax Debt, Selling Assets & Business (76:16–85:10)

• Caller Matt (Colorado Springs): Owes considerable IRS debt, seasonal business income, and a $20k HELOC.
• Key Insights:
  • IRS debt first: Aggressively pay IRS before other debts.
  • Selling under-utilized assets: Selling unnecessary equipment could “wipe out the IRS debt tomorrow.”
• Notable Quotes:
  • Rachel Cruze (80:56): “This changes the debt snowball a little bit because IRS debt gets moved to the front.”

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9. Inheritance, Family Bailouts, and Retirement Security (86:01–94:00)

• Caller John (Jacksonville, FL): Mother in financial jeopardy after father’s passing; large debts, mostly IRS, some possibly not in mother’s name.
• Key Insights:
  • Check whose name is on debt: Some obligations may die with spouse; others need to be negotiated or settled.
  • Immediate steps: Engage an estate attorney; prioritize IRS debts.
• Notable Quotes:
  • George Campbell (90:33): “If 75% of the debt is wiped away, you know, you send a death certificate and they go, ‘We can’t collect.’”

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10. Building Wealth, Baby Steps Millionaires (106:55–115:14)

• Caller Lonnie (Dayton, OH): Baby Steps Millionaire shares his story:
  • Net worth $1.86M, modest income most of career, never had a new car; consistent saving and investing per Ramsey’s plan.
  • Paid-off primary home and a Florida condo, significant pension on horizon.
• Key Insights:
  • Compound growth: Living below means, investing difference, and patience yields millions over time.
  • Intergenerational teaching: Exposure as a child to growing money sowed success.
• Notable Quotes:
  • George Campbell (114:13): “Live on less than you make, invest the difference consistently, and just wait. Compound growth will take over.”

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Other Memorable Moments & Quotes

• George Campbell (28:42): “Creative financing just means, ‘Hey, I’m going to do stupid.’”
• Rachel Cruze (39:07): “Kids don’t need life insurance, only you.”
• George Campbell (125:32): “You’ve got to be a crock pot in a world full of microwaves.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Leaving OnlyFans/Daisy’s Call: 00:45–09:01
• Family/Student Loan Debts: 10:20–19:39
• Early “Retirement” & Debt: 21:33–31:02
• Life Insurance 101: 33:28–41:41
• Emergency Fund vs. Debt Payoff (Joe): 44:15–52:37
• Debt/Car/Job Issues (Julia): 54:34–63:43
• Business Collapse/Bankruptcy (Robert): 65:04–74:25
• IRS, Assets, Business (Matt): 76:16–85:10
• Family Dead, IRS, Estate (John): 86:01–94:00
• Wealth Building Testimonial (Lonnie): 106:55–115:14

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Episode Tone & Style

The hosts maintain their signature blend of compassion, practicality, directness, and (occasional) tough love, encouraging personal responsibility while addressing the emotional complexity often tied up in financial decision-making. Difficult topics—such as leaving the adult industry, family resentment, and crushing debt—are handled with empathy, focus, and encouragement for a fresh start.

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Summary Takeaway

No matter your past or present financial struggle, you are not stuck—the path to financial peace requires honest self-assessment, decisive action, and a willingness to change both habits and mindsets. The Ramsey plan offers a clear structure to ditch debt, rebuild dignity, and create lasting stability for you and your family.

Transcript

[George Campbell]

Foreign.

[Dave Ramsey]

To you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today.

[George Campbell]

Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network in the Fairwinds Credit union studio, this is the Ramsey Show. I'm George Camel, joined by my co host, Rachel Cruz, also my co host on smart Money Happy hour, which you can get on YouTube. YouTube or podcast. You call us 888-255-225 and we'll help you take the right next step for your money and your life. Daisy kicks us off in Phoenix. Daisy, welcome to the show.

[Caller]

Hey there. It's Daisy. And I've just been. I'm just in a little bit of not with only fans.

[George Campbell]

Oh.

[Caller]

So I. Yeah, I've been doing it for about three years now, and. And as of recently, I've fallen pregnant and would like to, you know, become a stay at home mom from that.

[George Campbell]

Okay, so there's multiple pieces here. You've been doing this for three years and you want out only now because you're trying to start a family?

[Caller]

No, I have been wanting an out for a while now, but as of recently, I found out I'm pregnant. So it's like this just gave you.

[George Campbell]

The kickstart to go Motivation.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. Daisy, how old are you?

[Caller]

I am 21.

[Rachel Cruz]

You're 21. Okay. And who is the father of the baby? Is it someone you're dating? Is it. Are you married? I mean, what's.

[Caller]

It's my boyfriend. We've been together for about two and a half years now.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, wonderful.

[George Campbell]

Okay. And what is your current income? Just you.

[Caller]

My current income is honestly about $1,000 a month right now because my boyfriend, he's the one that takes care of everything.

[George Campbell]

Okay, how much does he make?

[Caller]

He makes about 4,000.

[George Campbell]

All right. And you guys have. You've combined finances already?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Campbell]

Okay.

[Rachel Cruz]

And Daisy, is that. I mean, is the thousand dollars coming from only fans? That's your income?

[Caller]

Yes, it is.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. Okay. Well, the positive thing is you could replace that in a heartbeat doing anything else. Right. I mean, it's.

[George Campbell]

So if he gets a $10,000 raise, he effectively replaced her income.

[Caller]

Mm.

[George Campbell]

Which he. What does he do for work?

[Rachel Cruz]

Him or you, Daisy? I mean, just for the time being, though. Do you know what I'm saying?

[George Campbell]

How far along are you?

[Caller]

I just found out last week, so I'm about five weeks.

[George Campbell]

Oh, congrats.

[Rachel Cruz]

So early.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[George Campbell]

That's good.

[Rachel Cruz]

How you feeling? This is.

[Caller]

Oh, I'm feeling great.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, you're good.

[Caller]

I've been trying for months now, so.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay.

[George Campbell]

Rachel meant, like, morning sickness.

[Rachel Cruz]

I meant, like. Yeah, the first trimester is always tough, actually.

[Caller]

None of that, luckily. Thankfully.

[Rachel Cruz]

Good. Okay. So, Daisy. Yeah. I mean, and so to be able to replace this, I mean, you could do this, you know, doing Uber eats, You know What I mean?

[George Campbell]

1,000 bucks a month, 250 a week.

[Rachel Cruz]

Could be found. Yeah. Yeah, it could be found. Super easy, which I'm thankful for, because sometimes when people are looking to replace their income, and especially when you're in this, like, moral dilemma of how you're making your money, sometimes you're trying to replace, like, 10,000amonth. Yeah, yeah. Like a crazy amount that would be hard to replace. This is easy. So. Yeah. So I.

[Caller]

And luckily, we're not in debt either at all, so.

[George Campbell]

Okay, so no debt. You guys have anything in savings?

[Caller]

We did have savings, but unfortunately that was taken from taxes and just. Just a bunch of life things. So, no, we don't have any emergency savings right now, but, however, we do have 20,000 in savings from my mother.

[George Campbell]

From your mother?

[Caller]

Yes, my mom. She's kept a savings for me.

[George Campbell]

Okay. And you have access to it now. Is this, like, a gift that she's given you?

[Caller]

It's whenever, like, we're ready for a house, ready for marriage, any big things like that.

[George Campbell]

Okay, well, speaking of marriage, when is that going to come into the picture?

[Caller]

Hopefully soon. Hopefully soon.

[George Campbell]

Like before the baby's here.

[Caller]

Oh, yes. Ring, possibly yes. Marriage, possibly no, because I'm under my mom's insurance right now.

[George Campbell]

Okay. And you would lose that when you get married?

[Caller]

I don't exactly know, but I'd have to recheck.

[Rachel Cruz]

I know. I think you can still. I mean. Yeah. Because your husband, if he. If he has a benefit of insurance, I think he can opt in as an individual. And if you're under 25, I think you can still write part of the.

[George Campbell]

I would not get married because you think you may not have mom's insurance. So if I'm in your shoes, I'm going, hey, courthouse, wedding. The time to do all this in order is long gone. Let's at least speed things up here. And so if he's the one, he's gonna be the father. He's gonna be in this baby's life. You're committed to each other. Let's go ahead and get married. We can have a party later on down the road.

[Caller]

Yeah, And I agree with that completely.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. And that way, Daisy, you guys can start to combine your lives even more Right. I mean, it's not only from a legal standpoint when you get married, but also from a financial. Because I would not be combining money with him until you guys are married. And so there does have to be. Because you are together, you're gonna have to figure out, like, a pay schedule. Right. Of. Okay, he's gonna be in charge of these things. I'm in charge of this. You know, whatever it looks like to run the household of how you guys are. But. But yeah, there's something about that marriage. And again, it's is. It is if he's the one. And, I mean, he's gonna be in your life, I mean, I assume, regardless, because you guys have a kid together, you know, but, yeah, I think. Yeah, I think stopping the income source right now from the onlyfans.

[George Campbell]

Cause are you done done? Like, account shut down?

[Caller]

No, I don't have the account shut down. I've just been running it. But every time I go do it, I just have a complete breakdown and just cry about how much I don't want to do it. Wow.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. Daisy, I mean, for your sake, girl, like, it's.

[George Campbell]

It's not worth the money. And your. Your mental health, your emotional health, your relationship, there's a.

[Rachel Cruz]

There's. There's something trapped in there for you, freed up from you. I mean, seriously, when that gets closed down, there is something, a dignity that gets placed back into you and who you are.

[George Campbell]

And so this is not your identity. It never was. And I know.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[George Campbell]

It's hard to separate that because this is what you've been doing, and you've been getting attention and affirmation and money from this. But this is not healthy in any way, shape, or form.

[Caller]

Correct? Yes.

[George Campbell]

And so I would shut it down today as a line in the sand to yourself.

[Rachel Cruz]

Does your boyfriend know about it?

[Caller]

Yes, Known about it. And we've just kind of made a goal to kind of push through it because we actually both.

[Rachel Cruz]

He's okay with it.

[George Campbell]

He's involved.

[Caller]

We both do it.

Oh, boy.

[Rachel Cruz]

Is that where he. Is that where he's making his money?

[Caller]

No, no, no. He's an electrical apprentice, and that's where he. He makes his most money.

[George Campbell]

That's an honorable position. Can he make more doing that? When is he done with the apprenticeship?

[Caller]

He's about to come up on his two years this year.

[George Campbell]

Okay. Like, before the baby's here, he'll be done and have an upgrade in income?

[Caller]

Possibly not. I don't think so. But we have been looking for possibly finding him a New electrical job. Yes.

[George Campbell]

Okay, and what are your household expenses right now? Have you guys actually sat down, done the math? You know, kind of what it's going to take to run your house?

[Caller]

Yes. Correct. We kind of live in an apartment right now and we're hoping to actually move into a house though before I buy a house, depending on what the cards play out.

[George Campbell]

Well, I can tell you the cards right now, you guys don't have the money to buy a house. That 20 grand is not down payment money. That is emergency fund money. Especially with a baby on the way. We are not going to touch that. So, Daisy, you've got some hard choices to make, some hard conversations, but you can do this. If you want to be a stay at home mom, you can do this. We got to figure out how to live on his income alone. And the hardest part is just detaching from this life that you guys have been living, correct?

[Caller]

Yes. And I'd really love to because, I mean, like, you know, especially becoming parents, you know, you don't want that.

[Rachel Cruz]

And Daisy, listen. Listen to your gut. Something's telling you to get out. And I, and I would, I would do some deep marriage premarital counseling work because I don't like the guy you're marrying is okay with all of this either that I don't like that that.

[George Campbell]

Gives me serious pause. I'd find a good community, a good church home, and hopefully therapist. You can detach from this life you've been living. Best of luck.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, every year I hear the same excuses for why people don't get the life insurance they need to protect their families. So this year, let's clear the air and look at the facts. Having 10 to 12 times your income on a 15 or 20 year plan is in many cases just plain cheap. That amount of coverage lets your family keep the lights on and keep food on the table while they're grieving. Second, life insurance through your work is not enough, especially since these plans go away if you change jobs. You need to have your own policy so you're not without protection when your family really needs it. Third, stay at home parents need life insurance, especially those with young kids. People don't realize how quickly the costs add up without someone at home taking care of things. So no more excuses, folks. Get the protection your family needs. Go to Zander.com or call 800-356-4282. They've been my choice for all my insurance for over 25 years and are the only people I trust.

[Caller]

I.

[George Campbell]

Shane is in Vegas up Next. What's going on, Shane?

[Caller]

Hey, y', all, thanks for having me on. It's an honor to be speaking to you today.

[George Campbell]

Thank you. How can we help today?

[Caller]

Yeah. So favorite topic for you guys? Money and family. Long time ago, when I was 18, took out student loans with the agreement with my father that they would pay until the balance is 0.35now. Balance is still in the mid-70s to.

[George Campbell]

What was it originally?

[Caller]

Yeah, it was over 120. So they've been paying it down. They've been making minimum payments.

[George Campbell]

Well, that's a problem.

[Caller]

I agree with you. The issue I'm really having is that my dad is. He's totally fine paying it. He still makes the payments, but my mother constantly brings up the fact that they are paying for my student loans. Feels like there's strings attached. When at the very beginning, there were.

[George Campbell]

Never those agreements and there was a clear agreement, hey, we're going to pay these off. We don't have the money to cover it, but take out the loan and we'll cover it. Is it in your name or their name or both?

[Caller]

They're in my name.

[George Campbell]

They have the money.

[Caller]

I mean, right now they could snap their fingers and pay it off. But the way my father sees it is he can make more money in the stock market, so he just chooses to.

[Rachel Cruz]

Are your parents still together?

[Caller]

Yeah, they're still together. Are you married financially? I am married, yes.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, so when you guys are around your parents, how often is that? How often do you all see them?

[Caller]

We. I mean, we live on separate sides of the country, so once, twice a year. But even in some phone calls.

[Rachel Cruz]

And what does she say? Like, what are her comments?

[Caller]

A lot of the times it's like revolved around like, oh, you just bought a truck, like that could have gone to the student loans or you took a nice vacation. Like, why is that money? But you know, going back to what I said, it's. That was never part of the agreement, so I'd never feel obligated. But then, you know, my father, he's like, yeah, I don't care. I'm still paying him. It's whatever.

[Rachel Cruz]

So have you.

[Caller]

Rather frustrating, yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

Do you push back on her at all?

[Caller]

I do. I try to keep it, you know, calm and light, but my wife is really the one that gets frustrated by it.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's why I was. As if you were married, because I feel like I would be like, oh, my gosh. See, this is the issue with the student loan stuff is these parents are like, sure, go take out whatever you want to go take out. And you're 18, Shane. Right. And sure, you sign it. I mean, yeah, you're 18. You're an adult. So, yes, you have some responsibility in the sense of, like, you chose to make that decision, but you also had fully functioning adults in your life that said, yes, and we would pay for this. So I almost would have a very kind but a very clear conversation with her around the boundaries of these comments because it starts to erode the relationship.

[George Campbell]

I'm guessing it already has.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Campbell]

Doesn't sound like the holidays are fun.

[Rachel Cruz]

I mean, that's why you're calling, right? This is your.

[George Campbell]

This is.

[Caller]

Yeah. A lot of tension.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. Okay.

[George Campbell]

Okay.

[Rachel Cruz]

So, yeah, I mean, I would tell her and I would be very kind, but I'd be very, very clear. And to be honest with her and say, you know, mom, there have been multiple comments made. I mean, you could give her some examples. And the truth is, when I was 18, you all told me that you would take a MA and you would pay for this. And I'm holding y' all to that word. I mean, that's what was said. If something has changed and you and dad agree on a different plan, I'm happy to have a discussion with you if that's the case. But that's not been the discussion. And so I need you to stop. Stop making these comments. They're passive aggressive and it's eroding our relationship. Can you do that, Mom? And at that point, that's up to her. She's the adult that gets to make the decision if she wants to continue.

[George Campbell]

I don't control yalls money. That's your decision. So this is now a marital problem they have of mom disagrees with how dad is handling a debt they agreed to pay.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's a good point, too. Yeah.

[George Campbell]

So legally, yes, it's yours. They could stop paying today, and it's gonna come to you. Now, they haven't done that yet, and I'm glad that they're not intentionally trying to tank your life. But this might be another conversation with dad of saying, hey, listen, you have the money. I don't care how much you can make in the freaking stock market. This is eroding our relationship, which is way more important than some spread you could make. And so you can try to also influence him to, you know, sort of. This would solve everything, wouldn't it, if dad just wrote the check, paid him off, and went, dude, it's been 17 years.

[Rachel Cruz]

I don't know. Would your mom be mad at that?

[Caller]

Yeah. Who knows?

[George Campbell]

So she just doesn't want to even use any of their money anymore to pay for these loans.

[Caller]

I'm sorry, can you say it again?

[George Campbell]

She doesn't want any of their money to be used to pay for any more of their student loans. She's just done with this whole thing.

[Caller]

I. It's hard to say. I know they're financially well off. Like, they're. My mom is retired. My dad, he makes fairly decent living. And I know what their nest egg is and liquid and retirement. So I know, like, this is not.

[George Campbell]

A big part of their world.

[Caller]

It's not a big part of their world. And you know, my wife and I, we make decent money. So, like, the payment could. It would be totally fine for us to take on. It's just like, yeah, I need to know if I need to start paying my $80,000.

[George Campbell]

Do you guys have the money to write a check and pay this off today?

[Caller]

Not in, like liquid assets. I mean, I could save a couple more months and it would be fine, but then it would just wipe out all of our liquid investments. So not. My wife doesn't really want to do that one. So it would probably just be.

[George Campbell]

What I'm hearing is either way, someone's going to be angry. And so that's the thing we have to make peace with, is who do we want to upset? And the truth is you can't control how they react or respond. All you can do is be a person of integrity and have the conversation.

[Caller]

That's fair.

[George Campbell]

So I was just saying, if you wanted to, this is the other option, is you write a check and say, mom, I don't want this to come between us and destroy our relationship. Here's the freaking check to pay off the loans. Yeah, that's the other option because.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, because they freaking have had this for almost 20 years.

[George Campbell]

Yes, the immaturity is on mom's side at this point and dad's for basically.

[Rachel Cruz]

Agreeing to pay exhausted.

[Caller]

But yes.

[George Campbell]

It's been two decades, man.

[Rachel Cruz]

When your 18 year old wants to go and take out $120,000, you say, no, but no, they didn't. They said, yes, we will do this and take this on. And so they're the ones that have been dragging their feet. It's not his. It's not your fault, Shay. I mean, you know what I mean, to that degree. Because there was a deal. There was a deal that was made. Yeah. So I'm sorry, that's so frustrating. But I would. I mean, for the. For your wife's sake. For your sake, to, like be in her presence and have passive aggressive comments constantly. Yeah, I would. Yeah, I would be clear and draw a boundary there. But again, kind but clear.

[George Campbell]

And there might be an in between. Yeah, there might be a compromise where you go, hey, listen, here's how much I'm willing to chip in to just.

[Rachel Cruz]

Man, you're really.

[George Campbell]

Here's the thing.

[Rachel Cruz]

Trying to bail the parents out, but they're fine if they were on food stamps, like, I get that.

[George Campbell]

No, they have the ability to. And so that's where I go. This is really between mom and dad because they have a disagreement. Mom should be mad at dad, not the son, because Dad's been dragging his feet for 17 years. Can I remind you.

[Rachel Cruz]

No, they both have.

[George Campbell]

Goodness gracious, that's. And clearly mom doesn't have a vote when it comes to finances.

[Rachel Cruz]

I feel like we're getting more and more of these. I don't know why I feel like we hear more and more parents. Resentment, guilt, calls to adult children. With the student loan debacle in the mix of someone said they were going to pay. They're not paying or they're paying in their map.

[George Campbell]

This was originally for money.

[Rachel Cruz]

Again, this is the original deal. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's so much.

[George Campbell]

So can we talk about our parameters around family and money? I think it's a good reminder for everyone listening here, which is this. Never loan money to family or friends. If you want to give money, make it a gift. And please don't go into debt for said gift. That's not really a gift. We've heard that with like, well, mom got me a car, has a loan on it, and so I, you know, I got to pay it, but she.

[Rachel Cruz]

Got me the car, right? Yes.

[George Campbell]

And so it's fine if you want to give.

[Rachel Cruz]

And if the giving ends up becoming a pattern of enabling bad behavior or irresponsibility, that's another stop. Right. We're not doing that. But the gets. Because, I mean, part of the show is about changing your family tree, Right. Getting yourself in a position where you can change your life, you change your family's life, you change others lives. The ripple effect is beautiful and wonderful and we want that to be, but we also want the people on the other side that are receiving it to be in a healthy, good spot themselves, to have their own dignity as adults. So that. And then the other thing, George, no co signing ever, please. Please, no co sign. We got a grandma who co signed. That was last week on the show. I think I Know, she was like 92. And this guy's like, yeah, my grandma co signed. I was like, poor grandmother. You're. He's broke. He's probably not gonna be able to make the pay.

[George Campbell]

Yeah, they require a co signer. Because nobody trusts you to pay it off.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Campbell]

And so what happens is you end up not paying it off and they go after poor grandma.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Campbell]

Who thought you were gonna make the payments perfectly. And she was just more of a, you know, more of a. Just like a nice thing. I'll sign it, but I won't ever have to deal with it.

[Rachel Cruz]

Right, Right.

[George Campbell]

Never think that it will destroy a relationship and cause resentment. And so it's so much easier to just either put the boundary up and say no or give a one time gift if it's gonna be a blessing and you're not enabling terrible money to save.

[Rachel Cruz]

You think just once for the rest of their life.

[George Campbell]

Well, not like an ongoing, hey, I'm giving you 1,000 bucks every month. Forever.

[Rachel Cruz]

The pattern. Yes.

[George Campbell]

You know what I mean? If you reward bad behavior, that's when it turns into entitlement.

[Rachel Cruz]

Agreed.

[George Campbell]

I'm gonna come back to bank of dad. Why would I Go work harder. That's silly. This is the Rams.

[Caller]

Foreign.

[Rachel Cruz]

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[George Campbell]

Trina is in Florida up next. Trina, welcome to the Ramsey show. How can we help today?

[Caller]

Hi. Hi. I'm so excited, you guys.

[George Campbell]

We're excited as well.

[Rachel Cruz]

We're glad you called. Trina, we're excited to talk to you.

[Caller]

Okay. Guys, I'm having this, like, issue. I always said I wanted to retire by the time I was 40. I am almost 40.

[Rachel Cruz]

Wow.

[George Campbell]

It's an aggressive plan.

[Caller]

My dad did it twice before he turned 40, and I'm just like, wait, I can't.

[Rachel Cruz]

Wait, hold on. He retired twice? What do you mean?

[Caller]

So he retired from the city and then he retired from boxing. So he, like, got to retire twice before retirement?

[George Campbell]

Yeah, he was a professional boxer?

[Caller]

Yeah, he was like, semi pro.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's pretty cool.

[George Campbell]

But he.

[Rachel Cruz]

Did he have to do it to earn money?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, so he didn't really, like, get to retire.

[George Campbell]

He was semi retired while semi pro and then fully retired.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Campbell]

Okay.

[Rachel Cruz]

I'm just trying to relieve some pressure for you.

[George Campbell]

Is that where this idea came from? Then you're like, I want to be like, dad, I want to retire by 40?

[Caller]

Well, it inspired me.

Yes.

Okay. Like that I've always been like, an overachiever.

[Rachel Cruz]

Like, yeah, an aggressive goal. You know, if something big that you're like, I want to work for that. I get that. Okay. Okay, perfect.

[George Campbell]

Keep going.

[Rachel Cruz]

So, yeah, how can we help?

[Caller]

So I ran into a financial situation. It's not a lot of debt. It's like $44,000 worth of debt, and I make about 60. So I want to pay this debt off.

[George Campbell]

What kind of debt is it?

[Caller]

It's like 20,000 in a car, like 4,000 about in personal loans, and like 2,000 in my son's private school that I still owe.

And.

Oh, credit cards. Like 16,000 in credit card.

[George Campbell]

Doesn't feel like a recipe to early retirement. Like, if I was trying to retire early, I'd probably go, hey, I'm going to make sure I don't owe people money and have money saved on top of that.

[Caller]

I know.

[George Campbell]

So how long has this been floating around? How long have you had this debt for?

[Caller]

So I filed a bankruptcy about two years ago. This is when all of this started.

[George Campbell]

So all this debt was post bankruptcy or did it get. Were you on a payment plan? What happened?

[Caller]

So actually, the only debt that I don't technically, like, I don't have to pay back one of the personal loans, one of the credit cards.

[Rachel Cruz]

And yeah, because of the bankruptcy.

[Caller]

Because of the bankruptcy issue is that I want to keep the relationship with that bank and I want to pay them their money back because I never wanted to put the items in bankruptcy. I was still paying it, but they said that because I filed a chapter seven that they had to put it in the.

[Rachel Cruz]

What caused you to file bankruptcy? Two Years ago. What was the, what were your numbers then?

[Caller]

So then I was making about. It kind of flip flopped. I was making about 40, then I went back to 60. Then I think before that I made 80. So what happened was I was working for this company, I had moved, I was working for this company. Basically I decided I wanted to open up my own company. Because we're under government contracts. We have a certain criteria that we have to meet. When I said that I wanted to open up my company, the government's agency said that they had to take away all my clients. So basically I went from having, you know, a decent income to like having nothing the next day.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. And it was all because of this new business?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Rachel Cruz]

So the new business never, never took off. But you took out loans to float the business for a bit and that's what caused the bankruptcy?

[Caller]

No.

So when they took my clients, it took a while. It took about a year and a half for me to open up and to get clients. So I started having clients in September. I had like maybe 15. Now I have like 25.

So.

And that's all I need financially.

[Rachel Cruz]

But Trina, what caused the bankruptcy two years ago, that was it consumer debt? Was it business loans? What was it?

[Caller]

So I had these student loans and I put them in an adversary proceeding where I filed bankruptcy to get rid of the student loans. While I was waiting for my agency to open. When the agency, when the agency didn't take off right away, I started using my kids college funds, my retirement, I started pulling everything out. And so I started listing and I started working as with another company. But that company just didn't pay that much. I was.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. So Trina, I have a new goal for you. I think instead of retiring at 40, we are going to learn to live debt free.

[Caller]

Which I usually do.

[George Campbell]

Trina, so far it's been everyone else's fault. And the government took your clients away.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh no, I'm not saying she's pushing on everyone's part, but like, no, Trina, you gotta be able to say like, yes. I'm used to living with debt though. From student loans to where you are now, there's a pattern of you using debt. Can we say yes to that?

[Caller]

Well, that makes sense. Yeah, I wasn't looking at. Sorry.

[Rachel Cruz]

No, you're great. No, I just wanna make sure we're tracking. So I think in order to have a completely new mindset with money from where you've been, of saying I'm living completely debt free. Debt's not an option. Debt is not an option. I'm going to save up and pay for things. I'm not going to be making unwise decisions about purchases and pulling money out of retirement or kids, college or investments because that's not wise. Right. Where that stuff is all for the future. And I'm going to learn to live within my income and my means. And that means making hard decisions about lifestyle and about, you know. Yeah. I mean, life choices and everything. And so, I mean, genuinely, I would make that the goal. I would make it a aggressive goal to get out of debt in I don't know what, two years. Like, make a goal to aggressive goal to get out of debt, to save up a fully funded emergency fund and freeze your credit.

[Caller]

Stop.

[George Campbell]

Two and a half years is a free plan.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. Okay. That's so great.

[George Campbell]

We never even got to your question, Trina. I'm sorry, there's so much details to jump into. What is your actual question we can help you with?

[Caller]

Well, I wanted to basically flip this piece of property. They have a piece of land that's for sale. It hasn't been impacted yet. I wanted to do like a creative finance to see if I can.

[Rachel Cruz]

No, we're off the bat.

[George Campbell]

Remember 10 seconds ago we talked about the new goal. Remember creative financing just means, hey, I'm going to do stupid.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's right. That was her original question. That's fair. We made a new goal 10 seconds ago. Yeah. Okay, so how would you answer this now, Trina, answer your own question with your new goals in mind.

[Caller]

So I am going to stick to my two and a half year budget that literally just looks like this month.

[Rachel Cruz]

And that's what we're talking about, Trina.

[Caller]

See, be debt free after that and then maybe save the money instead of.

[Rachel Cruz]

Look at you.

[George Campbell]

And how old, how old are you, Trina?

[Caller]

I'm 38.

[George Campbell]

38. Okay. Can I tell you, if you don't retire by 40, you're not a failure.

[Rachel Cruz]

I promise.

[George Campbell]

Can I just promise you that if you don't retire by 60, you're not a failure? How about this? You're not a failure, period. Ah, there you go. That's the most encouraging thing I've said today. Rachel can attest to that. But the truth is we have these aggressive goals and we need to create actions to get there. And we can't hold ourselves to these goals because life is going to happen. And so it's okay to pivot the dream, but one thing we can't do is pivot in going backwards and rob our future, rob our children's future, you are worth more than that. And so from today forward, you're a person who doesn't go into debt, who doesn't owe people money.

[Rachel Cruz]

And all your decisions can be based off of that value system because that brings you freedom, Trina. There's no shortcut. There's no, like, okay, I can do this creative financing here and do this and I'll make 20 grand just like that. And look at that like that. That doesn't work. That's not the real world. It is. It is hard work. It is the long game. It is a marathon. It's not a sprint. And it's just a different mindset you have to be in to get true financial freedom and true control over your money. And so you do have to shift the way you've been doing it, Trina. If you keep doing what you've been doing, you're going to keep getting what you've been getting. And so, yeah, I'm glad that Trina answered her own question.

[George Campbell]

We got there.

[Rachel Cruz]

We're not going to finance a piece of land to build a home to flip it. We are going to work on getting.

[George Campbell]

Out of debt de risk your life. Debt equals risk. More debt equals more risk. And so this creative financing is just adding more risk to the puzzle. And so be free. That's your best path to an early retirement.

[Rachel Cruz]

You're awesome, Trina. Thanks for. Thanks for calling.

[Dave Ramsey]

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[George Campbell]

If you're working the baby steps, the best and fastest way to do it is by using every dollar. It's more than just our budgeting app now. The plan is built right in. You can track your progress plus get personalized recommendations and coaching for your situation that will help you free up more money and work the plan even faster. It's like having one of us walking with you every day 24 7, showing you the next right step and holding you accountable. So start every dollar for free. You can download it in the App Store or Google Play. Miriam is in New York City. Up next, Miriam, how can we help?

[Caller]

Hi, it's a pleasure to speak to both of you. Thank you for taking my call.

[George Campbell]

Sure.

[Caller]

My question is about life insurance.

We pushed off getting life insurance way.

Too long and I thought it would pretty straightforward. I wanted to call Vander Insurance and.

My husband knew two people who kept.

Bugging him that they wanted his home life insurance. So I said, okay, we need a 20 year term. And I think we got a little screwed by them because we ended up.

Getting a policy which they said was.

20 years, but it's extendable. 20 years.

[George Campbell]

Oh, so after the 20 years, you can re up at the current premiums for your age, which is going to be two to five times higher, probably something like that.

[Caller]

But I think when we got the.

Package, which was, you know, we have 30 days to cancel or whatever, but.

It'S past the 30 days either way.

Either way, I'm going to replace it. But it goes up Even before the.

20 years, I think, like there's a whole chart.

It's hard to understand. I. Yeah, I'm not really sure.

[George Campbell]

Who'd you get it through? What company?

[Caller]

Northwestern.

[George Campbell]

Oh, boy. Okay, you've said enough. I would cancel yesterday. It's not a scam. And they're, they're a company who does all kinds of financial products. But likely what happens. Here's what I've seen. It's mostly young guys right out of college who want some sales experience and they sell the scummiest life insurance products to unsuspecting victims like their family and friends.

[Caller]

Right?

Yeah.

[George Campbell]

Well, that's what I've seen.

[Caller]

That's accurate.

[George Campbell]

So I'm not dogging.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yep, that's exactly.

[George Campbell]

But that's, that's my brother. Same thing happened to my own brother. Right. Some guy from college reaches out, hey, man, how you doing? And so I would get out of this and I would contact our friends at Zander because they're not going to sell you extendable term life insurance. Term life insurance by definition already reach out to Zander.

[Caller]

Okay, so I just wanted to know, like, basically, should I take 20 years, should I take 30 year?

They said that Dave recommends a child.

Rider, which I never heard on the show.

[George Campbell]

Northwestern said Dave recommends a child writer.

[Caller]

No, no, no.

[George Campbell]

For what reason?

[Caller]

I don't know.

I have four kids.

That's why I never heard it from him. That's why I called, because I wanted to understand.

And then, and somebody else, I'm getting.

Very overwhelmed, but somebody else told me.

That we should really do a disability rider.

[George Campbell]

I don't know, there's a lot of riders and when you hear the word rider, just think gimmick. And so all you need is term life insurance. 20 years should be enough. And here's how to think about it. In 20 years time, you should be self insured. If you follow the Ramsey plan, you become debt free, stay debt free. You have the emergency fund, you invest in retirement for 20 years. You pay the house off in 15 years. If you follow our parameters of a 15 year mortgage and all of a sudden you don't need the life insurance anymore once the term expires. So that's the goal. And if it needs, if you need 25 years to get there, then you get 25.

[Caller]

Well, and that's what I'm asking. How do I. We're in baby step 3B. We live in New York, so that's taking a while. I have four kids, one on the way, and I'm not done. My husband and I are both from very large families. So I'm thinking my kids are not gonna be out of the house in 20 years.

Should I go longer?

Should I look for something in between to add?

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, I mean you could see how much it is because. Are you guys in good health? Would you say yes? Yeah, because that's the great thing about term life is it is so inexpensive. And then when it comes up for time for renewal, you can always, you know, go back through and recheck things and make different decisions. Right.

[George Campbell]

You can always get additional policies. You know, in a few years now it's going to be more expensive as you age. So your best bet likely. And they can help you run the math is going, hey, let's do a 25 year because it's going to end up being cheaper than doing a 20 now and a five later. And so I would confer with them, get the math on it and always stick to term no matter what. Just term and if it's 15, 20, 25, that's fine. And always get 10 to 12 times your annual income or your husband's annual income. And both of you should have your own individual policies.

[Caller]

Yeah.

And you're saying not 30, 25 should.

I shouldn't go more than that.

[George Campbell]

30 feels if the kids are still in the house at that point, that's on them. And you guys will be multi millionaires.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, I was gonna say because I mean, yes, you'll be self ins years. Yes. Miriam. If you guys are investing 15% of your income, if you guys are working to pay everything off, I'm like, it's just that continues to build. That's where you build wealth. And in 25 years, what that's going to end up being is a lot of money. And so for the kids that are in the home, maybe it's one or two of them, they're going to have plenty of money. The others should be out living their own lives, you know, and not needing your financial.

[George Campbell]

And you'll have a village at that point to take care of each other. So I'm less worried 25 years from now about what life looks like if you follow the plan.

[Rachel Cruz]

Exactly.

[Caller]

Okay, I can ask one more quick question.

[Rachel Cruz]

Sure.

[Caller]

About when your income goes up. You have 10 to 12 times your income.

So then do you buy another plan.

In interim for the difference you can.

[George Campbell]

You can get a small policy for the difference. I wouldn't cancel the one you currently have and get a new one. You can always. Absolutely.

[Caller]

Would you look at that?

Like in a year, if it goes.

[George Campbell]

Up every few years, it's a parameter. So if you get a $5,000 raise, you don't need to go out and get an extra policy.

[Caller]

Right.

[George Campbell]

But if you get a substantial raise and your lifestyle's changing, your expenses have changed dramatically, that's when you go, all right, we need to relook at this.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, it's about every four to five years. I would re. Look and in the, you know, the kids situation too, changes it. I mean, for me. So. Yeah. But I'd say, yeah, every. Every four to five years. I'm trying to think of Winston and I, because we just re upped our life insurance maybe like two years ago or something. Because we still get it.

[George Campbell]

I don't know.

[Rachel Cruz]

I like having it. You know, even if we're debt free and everything, there's a part of me that I'm like, yeah, we're young and healthy and it's cheap and that's the great thing.

[George Campbell]

About for what it costs. I mean, it's a great policy to.

[Caller]

Have, especially a long time ago.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So anything fancy around it? Any words you don't understand? Miriam usually is like a. That's a red flag to me. They're adding things on. If it's a young guy that's in the situation and it's all these weird terms again that they're selling you this package. Probably not a great deal, like the simpler the better. Just a 20 year, 25 year old.

[George Campbell]

And they always want to prey on your emotions and the what ifs and. Well, a good parent would do this. You really want to take care of.

[Rachel Cruz]

Your kids and kids don't need life insurance, only you. You know, I mean all of it.

[George Campbell]

So it's meant to do one thing, which is replace income. That's it.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Campbell]

Your two year old is not bringing, you know, money into the house here unless he's like a Gerber baby making bank. So you're asking really good questions, Miriam and I love that you're taking care of your family in this way. Most people are going, what the heck are they talking about? I don't have any insurance. And so for everyone out there listening, you need term life insurance. If anybody depends on you, a spouse or children. And it's very affordable. And you can call our friends at Zander and get this done today, 800-356-4282 or go to xander.com. they'll take care of you. Rachel and I both have our policies through Xander for our families and it's well worth the money.

[Rachel Cruz]

And Xander's great because they go and shop. They're a broker.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

All different companies versus again, like a Northwestern. Right. To pick on them a little bit. But it's like, okay, it's just one. Or Aflac. It's just one. You know what I mean? I guess their car. I don't know if they do life.

[George Campbell]

They probably do it all these days.

[Rachel Cruz]

Probably. But yeah, it's not just the one company that you're getting the price from. What Xander does, they shop all the companies to get you the best price of what you're looking. So.

[George Campbell]

And a lot of these now have no medical exams. Like if you're under, I don't know, a million dollar policy.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, really?

[George Campbell]

You don't have to go get the medical exam or. That's nice, you know, so that's. That's always nice. Not have to get convenient, have someone come to the house and get pricked and get your blood done or Go somewhere and get the blood work done. I love it. And it's a good idea to get healthy before you shop for life insurance. Cut the bad habits.

[Rachel Cruz]

Be thinking about your diet the night before blood gets drunk.

[George Campbell]

It's like cramming for a test. You're like, well, if I don't e.

[Rachel Cruz]

Bad today and drink a lot of.

[George Campbell]

Water because you're like googling, how fast will my blood work be good if I cut sweets?

[Rachel Cruz]

I know. Yep.

[George Campbell]

That's a good reminder.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. And I think those are some of the saddest calls, George, of, you know, we'll get, you know, a widower, widower or a widow calling that their spouse passed away and they have kids and they're trying to pick up the pieces. You know, whether they're trying to find a new job or starting to work because they were a stay at home parent or trying to figure out childcare for the kids so they can go to work. I mean, it's just it. And if there is no life insurance, then they are, they have nothing. You know, they're just stuck with what it is. And so it is.

[George Campbell]

And the sad part is a lot of people think they're covered because they're like, well, he has one through work. And I go, well, how much is that policy? They go, it's $50,000. I was like, well, great, we can get by for maybe six to 12 months. Yeah, but what about after that? And so the goal here is if you make $50,000 and you get a $500,000 policy, you could invest that money and it would be able to spit off $50,000 with the average return in the market. And so that's the goal of getting 10 to 12 times your income is because the stock market historically has done about 10 to 12%. And so that's the reason for life insurance. That's the mechanics of it. And it doesn't take long. I know it feels like, well, I'm going to die sooner if I get life insurance. No, you're going to die regardless. Maybe tomorrow, maybe in 50 years. But either way, you need to sleep better knowing that your family, family's protected. And our friends at Xander will hook you up. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. As we head into the new year, I want you to take an inventory of all the stuff you're carrying, all those things you think you have to do, all the past hurts and pains, along with your past guilt and shame. When the world feels heavy, it's important to look in the mirror and consider setting down that old weight and not carrying it forward into 2026. Therapy can help you identify the heavy stuff, set it down, and move forward with clarity so you can focus on living the life you want to live in the new year. If you're thinking about therapy, I recommend BetterHelp. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the leading online therapy providers in the world, trusted by millions with an average rating of 4.9 stars out of 5. And it's easy to fit into your busy schedule because it's totally online. To get started, just answer a few easy questions and BetterHelp will connect you with a licensed therapist who fits your needs. And if it's not the right fit, you can change therapists at any time for no extra cost. You can't feel lighter without leaving behind what's been weighing you down. Go to betterhelp.com Ramsey to get 10 off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com Ramsey. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show.

[Caller]

Hello.

[George Campbell]

In the Fair Winds Credit Union studio, I'm George Camel, joined by best selling author Rachel Cruz. You can call us at 888825 5225. That is the only way to get through and get your question answered. Joe is up next in Huntsville, Alabama. What's going on, Joe?

[Caller]

Hi, guys. I just want to thank y' all for taking my call. And before I get into it, I want to thank all of you for all the work that you do with Church of the Highlands in Alabama.

[George Campbell]

Oh, thank you. Thank you good people over there.

[Caller]

Yeah, thank y'.

[George Campbell]

All.

[Caller]

Well, I'm just calling because I've got. I came into a marriage with about 30,000 in student loans and we now owe about 23 on it. We are not homeowners yet, but we have been blessed by just gifts and what we both brought into the marriage of saving. And we have about 122,000 in savings.

[Rachel Cruz]

Good for y'.

[George Campbell]

All.

[Caller]

Thank you. But it was not mostly us. We eloped and so we got a great gift for.

[Rachel Cruz]

Nice, but nice.

[Caller]

Yes. So I would love to be able to write a check and get those. That's the only debt we have. Like I said, not homeowners yet. We rent. But I would love to write a check and get that debt out of our lives, but we're not quite on the same page. My husband's not not comfortable with that yet because we're not homeowners. And it just feels like a scary thing to do to just send that much money off not knowing what the future might bring. Because I am a stay at home mom. So just, you know, want some advice?

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, so his big hang up is he wants to keep a ton of savings and not pay off anything because of something possibly happening to something where income's not coming in. And he would rather have $122,000 saved than 100,000 in no debt.

[Caller]

When you put it like that, essentially.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, yeah, because that's. Yeah, I mean, that's. That's what it is when you break down.

[George Campbell]

And he wants to be a homeowner first before he pays off the debt.

[Caller]

I think he's most concerned about, like having. Once we pay off that debt and then once we do, we're looking to buy a house, you know, in the next end of this year when our lease ends. So when we do end up putting that down payment on a home, where does that leave us? I think that's his concern.

[George Campbell]

You won't be able to afford the mortgage.

[Caller]

Well, no. Where does that leave our emergency fund? And where does that leave if he loses his job? So are like three to six months of expenses.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. So it's kind of, in my opinion, the dog's wagging the. Wait, what is it? The tail wagging the dog.

[Caller]

Tail wagging the dog.

[George Campbell]

Yeah, the dog is always going to.

[Rachel Cruz]

Be wagging the tail, tail wagging the dog because he's going to backwards. He's wanting to be a homeowner, which is one of the largest financial purchases you ever make. One of the most expensive things you ever do is to own a home. It's a good thing and it needs to be part of your financial plan. But he wants to do that big thing first before paying off debt and almost regardless of what's in the emergency fund. And that's what's scaring him. Right. So if you flipped it and said, okay, we need to get rid of the risk of the debt, then have the emergency fund, and then what's left is what we have for a down payment. So that means if we don't have enough by the end of the year, we may have to lease somewhere for six months and then we buy a home in this next summer versus at the end of this year when our lease is up. Right.

[Caller]

Essentially, I would say so. I think because say we put 50,000 down on a home, we pay the 22 or 23 off in loans, that still leaves us, you know, pretty comfortable, I would say, with at least four to six months of expenses and yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

Well, and that's if you guys do nothing for a year. Right? You guys, I mean, he's working, right? And you guys are putting more money on save, right? Like, I mean, what, how much margin do you guys have a month?

[Caller]

So we live pretty comfortably on what he makes now. Like I said, I'm a stay at home mom. So we're not saving as much as we'd like. We don't invest because we were just kind of unfamiliar with all of it. You know, we're so new to all this, but we have a money market account that we save about 200amonth and then we have a money market that brings in about 150amonth.

[George Campbell]

So what's your rent right now?

[Caller]

350Amonth. Right now, 1250.

[George Campbell]

Okay, so the question mark is how much house can we actually afford and is this timeline even reasonable? Because I think what he's really saying is things are already tight and it's only going to get tighter if we pay off your debt. But really what it's doing is you're freeing up a payment and getting a better financial foundation. And if you can't buy a home when the lease is up, that's okay. This is a fake timeline we've made up that we have to be homeowners when the lease is up. And so you guys need to sit down and get some real numbers on this. And not just. Well, I think, and I'm not sure what's going to happen. We need to go, here's what is true today. Here's what will be true 12 months from now.

[Caller]

Okay, so my proposal is that we, and this is like, you know, understandable. My proposal, we pay about 320 on the loan a month right now. And we also tithe 10%. So my proposal. And that still puts us comfortable. So we're like, we're pretty frugal. So if we were to free up that 320, that would put us saving more like 600amonth. That would like pretty much double the amount we saved.

[Rachel Cruz]

100.

[Caller]

His fear is that we wouldn't actually save it, you know, so. Which is understandable, but it would just take the discipline.

[George Campbell]

So his fear. Yeah. Is that you guys aren't disappointed and.

[Caller]

Pretend like we're still throwing through on the loan.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, I think it'd be good.

[Caller]

I believe we are.

[George Campbell]

I think you guys are too. I think he's, he's using a lot of these. Well, I'm scared. I'm fear. Well, you have fears too.

[Rachel Cruz]

Scarcity, mentality how did he grow up with money? What was his childhood like?

[Caller]

I mean, pretty.

Just middle.

Like, you know, general middle class. And I don't believe that his family of origin spoke about money very often unless it was a tight season.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. Okay.

[Caller]

Whereas, you know, this is the most money I've ever had in my entire life.

[Rachel Cruz]

Sure.

[George Campbell]

I grew up.

[Caller]

My mom was a single mom, and so just different families of origin, for sure.

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

Do you guys sit down and do a budget every month together?

[Caller]

We.

We do. I track every dollar we spend, and that's like. And then we sit down and we close the month, and I kind of. I keep the spreadsheet because that's just kind of my thing.

[George Campbell]

I'm good at that.

[Caller]

But we sit down and look at it together. I say, like, okay, this is where we spent 10 groceries, and this is what we saved. And that's amazing job. I know where every dollar goes.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, y' all are. Y' all are amazing. I mean, well done. Okay, so what I would. What I might suggest is, I don't know, there's something about hitting goals together as a couple that is so unifying. And I'm trying to figure out and think through, you know, what could be something that you guys do together that's going to make you both a little uncomfortable, but it's at least getting you towards what you're both wanting. So I'm throwing this out here. I don't even know if this would work. I wonder if you guys sat down and just said, hey, what if we paid off half the money right now? And we just.

[Caller]

Okay, and we wrote a step.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, we wrote a check. 12 grand, and we just paid half of it off. Can we just see how we feel now? Because a lot of this is, like, the emotions are driving. His fear is driving a lot of this. I'm not to George's point to a fake timeline of buying a house that.

[George Campbell]

You know, you're just moving a digital balance. And the truth is you owe people money. And so the balance isn't really 122, it's 99. And so if you did it this way. He also sounds like he's not familiar with the plan. I would go watch Financial Peace University with him and go, hey, this is what I'm after. That's the financial piece I'm after. And as long as we have debt, I don't want to move forward. I don't want to become a homeowner. Life is only going to get more expensive. Therefore, let's create more margin in our life. So I would pay it all off. You'll have 99 left. Earmark 30 for an emergency fund. That's 70 you have left for the down payment. And if you save over 600 bucks a month, you'll have another eight grand. So a year from now you have 78,000 to put down on a house. How much house can we afford with that number? That's the kind of tactical homework you guys have to do tonight instead of just a lot of feelings.

[Rachel Cruz]

Look at you. I know. And I went right into the feelings.

[George Campbell]

I just pay half off it to.

[Rachel Cruz]

See how we all feel.

[George Campbell]

I'm just a nerd. I'm like, enough. Let's use logic, people. But money is always emotional.

[Dave Ramsey]

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[George Campbell]

Attorney advertising results may vary and no specific outcome is guaranteed. Julia is in Denver. Up next, Julia, welcome to the Ramsey show.

[Caller]

Hi, it's so great to talk to you. Hello, can you hear me?

[George Campbell]

Yes, you sound great. We're happy to talk to you.

[Caller]

Wonderful. I'm actually a huge fan of your guys show. I actually try your mocktails on the regular.

[George Campbell]

Oh fun. Smart money happy hour fan. We love to see it.

[Caller]

Yes, you guys do talk what everyone else is talking about.

[George Campbell]

Yeah, that's our tagline.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's our tagline.

[George Campbell]

Rachel is very relatable that way.

[Caller]

Well George, I've actually talked to you before when you and Dave were on the show and I was the one who was asking about my mom's student loans, debt and stuff like that. I will say updates from them. I got a job, a full time job. That isn't just ba work good. Which I'm not an Instagram influencer, just to clarify. And my husband actually was able to get a part time job. The reason he was able to get that job was because it was a seasonal job, but now we're coming out of season. They're keeping him, Praise the Lord. But it's not enough. And we're still struggling to get any other work from, you know, just applying. And so we're trying to use. What's his name, Ken Hellman's strategy, the principle.

[George Campbell]

Yeah. Okay.

[Caller]

By using my company because they have a position open and my boss said that if we have him apply, he'll have a really high chance of getting that position. The problem is he would need a car, and we're down to one car right now.

[George Campbell]

Okay.

[Caller]

So being in step two, I'm wondering is it better to move on or hold off paying off debt and get like a beater that'll just work for this job because we'll be making more money.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. Because how much of a raise would you need?

[Caller]

Go ahead. Sorry.

[Rachel Cruz]

How much of a raise will he get with the job versus what he's.

[Caller]

So right now he's only making like, it's really low hours. He was getting at most he got 30 hours during seasonal, but now he's getting like 15 hours.

[George Campbell]

And what does he get paid?

[Caller]

Which is really hard for him because he's a manager and he lost his job because of some other stuff. But so he's having a hard time wanting to ask for more hours knowing how little he is. I mean, he still is asking for more hours, but they can't really give him much. So it would raise him by about $2,000 more a month.

[George Campbell]

Okay, so he's getting a 24 grand raise.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

Amazing. Okay, so, yeah, so if you guys stopped the debt snowball, saved up some cash for him to get a car and say you. You paused for 90 days and you know, worked like crazy. Did so, you know, did whatever you could.

[George Campbell]

Yeah. Could you save two grand a month if you really went for it?

[Caller]

Yes, we can. We just moved into a new apartment. So last month we had to move into just a better situation for our living. So we weren't able to get ahead with like debt or anything like that. But that those expenses are no longer worried about. It's just like I don't have a good vision on how much we have. I mean, I have a budget and everything. And ideally what we should be making, we're still kind of figuring that out. So I Can't say for sure that we can save about two grand a month, but I think it's very doable if we do a little extra instacart.

[George Campbell]

Okay, I have an ignorant question. If you guys work at the same company, why can't you carpool?

[Caller]

So. Because it's not so. I'm a merchandiser, and I go. I have 10 different store locations, so I'm traveling.

[George Campbell]

It's not like an 8 to 5 in the same building. You're moving all over the place. And he's. He would be more of an 8 to 5 in the building.

[Caller]

Building.

No, he would be doing something similar to what I'm doing.

[George Campbell]

Oh, so he'd be traveling to different stores as well, on his own, Right?

[Caller]

Exactly.

[George Campbell]

Okay, well, this is a solvable problem. I would pause. Pause right now and just stack up cash real fast. Now, this is not. We're going to take a break for a year from paying off debt. Like Rachel said. This is like three months max. We're going to go really hard. And worst case, if you're not there yet, you need to rent a car for a month. Do that, borrow a car, whatever you need to do to get by as he takes on this new job. That's okay. But just please don't take out a car loan because you, quote, had to. I know you're better than that, Julia. I know, but that's the calls we get. He needed a $40,000 truck because he got a new job.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[George Campbell]

Okay, so that's the game plan. How. How sure is it that he's going to get this job?

[Caller]

They said that they don't have anyone applying for this position right now. So as soon as they apply, they'll get him.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Campbell]

Your total household be at that point.

[Caller]

So it increased by 2000, we'd be at 7k a month.

[George Campbell]

The 7k total is what you'd be bringing home a month. Awesome. And then how much debt do you have left?

[Caller]

So I did the math, and it's actually more than we were expecting. We're in 60k right now.

[George Campbell]

Okay, and what makes up the 60k?

[Caller]

Okay, so 16 of the 16,000 of it is his credit card, which I'm getting really nervous about because we haven't made any payments on it in a while. And then we have my student loans, which is about 12k, and those are under my name. That's not the parent plus loan with my mom. Okay, and then what? You guys advised for me to wait to worry about that, so I'm not even including that in this the parent plus loan.

[George Campbell]

Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't worry about that right now.

[Caller]

And then there is just like a bunch of odd end things. Like our last apartment we ran into just some issues with the landlord. They didn't take our rent when we wanted to pay because we behind a month and it was a whole thing. And so now we have 8,000 of dollars to go towards an apartment complex.

You owe them which we in like back background.

[George Campbell]

Okay, are you guys done taking on.

[Caller]

Because we tried. So huh.

[George Campbell]

Are you guys done taking on debt? Are you still using credit cards or anything like that?

[Caller]

No, we haven't used a credit card ever since we got married. This was before I married my husband.

[Rachel Cruz]

Julia, are you guys done? If he gets this job, what time are you guys home at night?

[George Campbell]

Night.

[Rachel Cruz]

Like hour. Hour wise.

[Caller]

That's a great question. Because he could, the position that we're looking for, he could do later in the day, whereas I can work early in the morning. And that would help with the baby because we do have an eight month at a home.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. Yeah.

[Caller]

So it'd probably be like we. I'd be working in the morning and he'd be working at night.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. Yeah, yeah. So you guys would. But not, hopefully not too long term because hopefully once you're out of this debt, you guys can, you know, factor in maybe daycare or something, I don't know. So you can at least get on the same schedule so you're not missing each other for years. You know, in life you don't want. That's not sustainable for your marriage for sure.

[George Campbell]

But here's the math on this. Can you guys put three grand a month with this new income towards your debt, minimum payments plus extra. Can you do three grand a month.

[Caller]

Like after we get the car and get this position?

[George Campbell]

Yeah, once you guys are settled and stable in this new life.

[Caller]

Yeah, we should be able to.

[George Campbell]

Okay. Because that means 60k, three grand a month, you're done in 20 months. And that's if you don't do more than that.

[Rachel Cruz]

Less than two years. Yeah.

[George Campbell]

If you guys go more aggressive, you can get it done in 18 months, 12 months.

[Rachel Cruz]

And so that's why I was asking about the hours because if you guys could keep up the instacarting or something on the side and bring in.

[George Campbell]

Yeah, don't stop. You know what I mean?

[Rachel Cruz]

That's the gazelle intensity that we talk about. Maybe step two of you guys are just crazy people, right? You're just doing anything and everything to earn income cut lifestyle. I mean it is like we are putting everything because every, if you think about it, every two, three hundred dollars that you can put, that's not going out in lifestyle towards this debt. That's a, you know, a couple hours that you're not working. You know, I mean, it's just that give and take. So it's like just deep, deep sacrifice. And again, if you do that, like George said, in less than two years, you guys could be out, which is just huge.

[George Campbell]

Which. How long, how long have you been in dead?

[Caller]

My whole adult life.

[George Campbell]

Don't you think you deserve better, Julia?

[Caller]

I do.

[George Campbell]

I think you do too. So I think we make a plan tonight. We spit, shake and say, hey, hubby, we're going to go hard in the paint until this thing is gone. We're both working like crazy. It's a competition of who can work more hours at this point.

[Caller]

We're very competitive, so that works out and we're very ambitious. I mean, he has his own business and it's like hard for him to invest in that with all the debt and everything. And so. And then I have like a ministry and there's all this other stuff going on in our life that we want to do.

But you have why.

[George Campbell]

You have a great. Why he wants to run this business. You want to be generous and run this ministry. So all of these things will fuel the journey when it gets really hard. When you guys are both exhausted and instead of fighting each other, you go, good job today. Way to go. Thank you for providing for our family. Thank you for knocking out this debt. We are worth being debt free and you guys will get there in no time. Are you guys using everydollar right now?

[Caller]

We are. I just got this subscription in December.

[George Campbell]

You are on the way, Julia, Call us back and we will celebrate with you maybe 20 months from now. Worst case, you got this.

[Rachel Cruz]

Foreign.

[George Campbell]

Tax season is coming up fast, which means a lot of you are paying more attention to your money and maybe realizing the holiday damage. So if you're trying to clean up the budget and start the year strong, cutting your phone back bill is an easy win with Boost Mobile. Keep the phone you love and pay just 25 bucks a month for unlimited data. Talk and text forever. No contracts, no traps. Just predictable savings that help you stay in control. Switch [e-mail] Ramsey restrictions apply. See website for details. Robert is in Columbia, South Carolina. Up next. Robert, what's going on?

[Caller]

Hey, how are you today?

[George Campbell]

We're doing great. How can Rachel and I help?

[Caller]

Yeah, so I have a lot going on first question that I have is where to start with everything that I have going on. I've recently, in the last month, I own a business. I've had a business now for going on three years of school will be my third year. First year I did great. Second year I cut back and I had too many eggs in a basket and they went with a different contractor and so to speak, I'm losing about 80% of my income.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, gosh.

[George Campbell]

So what was it and what is it now?

[Caller]

So my income was 6,000 or really 4,000, and it's dropping down to about 2,000.

[George Campbell]

Okay, so you went from four to two?

[Caller]

Well, really six to two. But I was putting money back in savings and using that for the business.

[George Campbell]

Got it. But you were kind of taking home from the business. You were taking six for your own personal goals.

[Caller]

Yes, sir.

[George Campbell]

Okay.

[Rachel Cruz]

Are you actively trying to replace that since you know that it's going to be cut? I mean, are you.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

What's the plan for that?

[Caller]

So I've been going and meeting with different owners, and I actually am looking at taking on more contracts than what I had before. Others don't have the contract signed right now.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, good. Okay.

[George Campbell]

So there's in the pipeline. You got some leads here?

[Caller]

Yes, sir.

[Rachel Cruz]

Good, good, good.

[George Campbell]

But in the meantime, it sounds like there's other pieces here. Do you have debt?

[Caller]

Yes, I do. To be completely honest, I'm behind on my taxes. In my personal life, I'm looking at going to bankruptcy. I have enough money saved up right now to quote me by for two months if something does not come through through. And then after that, I will basically lose everything that I have built. I have four children and I have a fiance.

[George Campbell]

Wow.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. How much debt do you have?

[Caller]

So after the bankruptcy, it will basically.

[Rachel Cruz]

Wait, are you. Wait, have you filed. Give me. Where are we at? When. When you say after the bankruptcy. Is that in process?

[Caller]

I have. Yeah, it is in process. So I have one more final payment before I'll have my court date.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. And can I ask why you filed?

[Caller]

So I had a few judgments put on on me from a past marriage that I had.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay.

[Caller]

I took all the debt from that and they reached out to me and put some judgments on me for some vehicles that we had.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, so you have coming out of that. And do you have, you know, you have no money personally saved for these.

[Caller]

Upcoming months other than two months worth? That's correct.

[Rachel Cruz]

Two months.

[George Campbell]

How much do you owe the IRS?

[Caller]

I would say about 26,000.

[George Campbell]

And that is that back Taxes or is that, hey, I should have been making these estimated payments. It'll be due in April and I don't have.

[Caller]

Yeah. So that's back taxes. And then come April will be for another tax year and you don't have.

[George Campbell]

That'll be another 26 or so that you'll owe.

[Caller]

Yes, yes.

[George Campbell]

Okay. So we basically owe, you know, 50 grand to the IRS. What other debts do you currently have?

[Caller]

I have a truck that I'm been working diligently to get paid off. I'm about $900 away from having that paid off.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, good.

[Caller]

I also have a family vehicle that I've been working dilig. I'm about $600 from having that paid off.

[George Campbell]

So $1500 and you free up both car payments?

[Caller]

Yes, sir.

[George Campbell]

I would dip into that savings you have and pay those off today.

[Caller]

Okay.

[George Campbell]

That lowers your expenses measurably.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. How much are, how much is each car payment?

[Caller]

So combined they're about 900 bucks.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. Yeah. That and then Robert, I'm like, I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here. But if you know you're going to be going down to 2000 and you know there's contracts in the pipeline but they're not signed and there are no guarantee, go get another job. Can you go work?

[Caller]

Yeah. So I'm actually, I'm looking at going into drill and making about 10k a month. And the only thing that's holding me up from that is one of this. This is another issue I have. Me and my fiance disagree on finances quite a bit. And so this last Sunday I started FPU nine week course. So I'm currently trying to have that conversation with her on cutting back and canceling out debt to improve our financial life.

[George Campbell]

So when you say you're not aligned, where is she at on all this financial situation? Does she even know what's going on?

[Caller]

Yes. So she does know what's going on and she trusts me to provide. I've always provided. However, you know, we don't see eye to eye on things such as cutting out Spotify, cutting out all the things that are not necessities to be able to cancel out debt and basically restart and we don't see eye to eye on that.

[George Campbell]

Does she work outside the home?

[Caller]

No, she currently, she's a stay at home mother with our four children. Children.

[George Campbell]

Okay, so does she understand the reality that, hey, we have $2,000 to cover all of our bills and we can't afford that, so therefore we don't have an option but to cut this isn't like a, hey, let's just really hunker down and get rid of the debt. You guys are in storm mode right now.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. How old are the kids?

[Caller]

So I have a nine year old, a six year old, a four year old old, and then a three year old.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. In my head this is like a little bit on fire. Right. I mean, you're coming out of a bankruptcy.

[George Campbell]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

You guys have $2,000 with tech that, you know, you have the IRS that's going to be freaking.

[George Campbell]

You got to focus on that before anything else.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. And so for me it's all, it's all hands on deck. So I need to be looking at what she can do to bring home money. Money from being a stay at home mom. I, if I'm you, I'm looking at three different jobs or the 10 or the drills, you know.

[George Campbell]

Yeah. How sure is the drilling gig and what do you need to do to actually get the job?

[Caller]

It's for sure. I just have to go and do the paperwork in a different state and go for the training classes.

[Rachel Cruz]

How long does that take?

[Caller]

Well, they paid me during training. I could probably have, have that within three weeks.

[Rachel Cruz]

Go $10,000 a month.

[George Campbell]

Is she on board with this?

[Rachel Cruz]

I don't care.

[George Campbell]

Because if you're ditching the family for two weeks, is this gonna be a problem? And your business as well, they don't have money. Yeah, no. I'm making sure this is a reality. He can just go do this right now.

[Rachel Cruz]

I know.

[Caller]

So the current situation with it is I'll have to be gone for three weeks, come back home for two weeks.

Weeks.

So there's that and then like ongoing. There's also. Yeah, it's ongoing every month. It would be that way. And then there's also the current talk of should I give up on a business that in our first year we made almost 200,000 and did fantastic. However, we did not financially save back from this.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[Caller]

You know, it was kind of money.

[Rachel Cruz]

That both of us. Listen, if I'm. You guys, I'm like, we have to have, we have to have some major changes in our lives because we have $50,000 that we're going to owe to the IRS with both, you know, both years, you know, we, we're, I don't know, all. To me, I'm like, do what you have to do for six months and let's reevaluate in August. Like go do the drilling thing and.

[George Campbell]

Put every extra Months, Yes.

[Rachel Cruz]

I mean, that'll clear out the debt. Get, you know, maybe you do it for a year and that's it. I mean, talk to people that are deployed, right? I mean they're gone from their families for six months at a time. So it is possible. I'm not saying it's the only option, but it's a very, very great option. It's right in front of you over a short season, for just a season. It doesn't be forever. And then when you guys actually have your head above water and you actually have somewhat of stability, then we can look to see, okay, what do we want to do with this business and should we, you know, get it back going? But if I'm y' all and I'm coming out of bankruptcy and my income's being shot, I'm. I'm just looking anywhere to make money at this point to feed four kids and yes, your fiance. I'm sorry, she needs to grow up and understand how math works.

[George Campbell]

That this is not like you don't.

[Rachel Cruz]

Get to live in.

[George Campbell]

I want to keep up my lifestyle.

[Rachel Cruz]

You don't make $200,000 anymore. That's what she has to realize. You don't. So what are you going to do.

[George Campbell]

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[Caller]

First, first thing I just want to say is y' all are such a blessing to so many people.

[George Campbell]

Thank you.

[Caller]

I've listened for quite some time, and I'm just thankful for what y' all do. And now I find myself in a situation where I could use some advice.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. Thank you, Matt.

[Caller]

Yeah. So I guess the brass tacks of the situation is I've got a pretty considerable amount of IRS debt, I own two businesses, and I've just kind of got myself in a little bit of a hole. And so the question is if there's any credibility to tax relief programs and things of that nature.

[George Campbell]

Well, they're often marketed to people who are desperate and vulnerable, which is never a good sign, you know, when they're. That usually means they're predatory and they're promising, way over promising and under delivering. So what they tell you to do is basically, hey, don't pay a dime. You pay us instead. And what's going to happen is tanks your credit, which with the irs, not the people you want to not pay, and so they then try to settle for you and save you money, which, by the way, you can do all of this yourself. And with the irs, they can already set up a payment plan. So there's really no use for a tax relief program in this situation.

[Caller]

Okay.

[George Campbell]

They're just paid middlemen between you and the irs.

[Caller]

Right. And the other office that I contacted was more of like a tax attorney that talks more about the future plan for the taxes, for the business to avoid this issue in the future, which may be beneficial.

[George Campbell]

Yeah.

[Caller]

But then his office was saying, you know, we don't recommend these tax relief programs because they're over promising under delivering, so.

[George Campbell]

Perfect. I'm in line with an attorney. That's a good day for me.

[Caller]

Okay, so I guess the question is, in your. If you were in this situation, what steps you might take. Take.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. How much do you make a year, Matt?

[Caller]

It's kind of relative. Probably somewhere around 100 or so.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. And do you have anything in savings?

[Caller]

Yeah, I typically try not to dip below 15 or 20 in savings.

[Rachel Cruz]

So you have 20?

[Caller]

Yeah, about right there. Right now.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[Caller]

The issue with my particular business is extremely seasonal with construction, so, you know, kind of hunker down in the wintertime and, you know, rice and beans and just about nothing. So. But then in the busier season, it's easier to tackle some of these things.

[George Campbell]

What kind of construction?

[Caller]

Outdoor, you know, fence and deck and a lot of carpentry kind of stuff, so.

[George Campbell]

Cool. Well, the good news is you can still work during that time and make money and you can definitely pay this money back in a reasonable amount of time. Do you do have any other debts that are holding you back from creating the margin to knock this out quick?

[Caller]

Yeah, there's still about 20,000 remaining on a HELOC. And I already know that's a teeth grinding word for you probably, but. It's one of those situations where, sure, I could pay that off, but then you have to worry about the bills right now. So if I were to pay it off off, I would wait until the money's coming in more fluently.

[George Campbell]

And you got 40 to the IRS, 20 on the HELOC. Anything else?

[Caller]

That's about it. I've paid off, I don't know, 20,000 something in credit cards. Great for you.

[George Campbell]

No car loan.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, well, I would. This changes the debt snowball a little bit because IRS debt gets moved to the front. So even before the HELOC, I would be tackling this 40 and I would just make it an aggressive goal. And again, I don't know if it's a payment plan that you contact the IRS with, but I would try to have this all paid off off in less than a year.

[George Campbell]

Yeah.

[Caller]

So I guess other pieces of the equation are I've got to file the last two years of taxes. I'm behind on that. So there'll be probably another 10 to 15.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay.

[Caller]

All the expenses and whatnot.

[George Campbell]

So let's call it 60. Is that fair?

[Caller]

Sure.

[George Campbell]

So if we call it 60, you know, you owe 60, set up a payment plan with them, and maybe it's, hey, you're going to pay a thousand a month or 2000amonth, and then once you get down to that, you know, you got 15 grand left. I would use your savings to just knock it out and then you can replenish the savings. Really what you do is then attack the heloc, then replenish the savings.

[Caller]

So I guess the questions then become, you know, I pay a considerable amount of additional principal on my home, or does it make more sense to factor that into this equation?

[George Campbell]

Yeah, the minimum mortgage payment. Why are you paying extra on the principal of your home right now?

[Caller]

Generally just, you know, you look at the amateurization schedule and all of that and it, you know, over a course of time, it just makes sense.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. And it does in the right order. But you want to get this stuff cleaned up. So if you, if you went down to just your mortgage payment, how much does that free up a month?

[Caller]

Probably about another thousand or so.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, great.

[George Campbell]

So how much could you reasonably put towards this IRS debt every month, if you got aggressive.

[Caller]

Well, this is where it gets tricky because, you know, I listen to your show constantly and people are like, well, I make this exact amount every month or every two weeks. And for me I have months where it's 15, 20,000 and I have months where it.

[Rachel Cruz]

Sure, you've been doing this a while. So you probably could look at a calendar and semi guess like this probably will be good months here, low months here. So yeah, so you may be putting, you know, maybe, you know, 13, 1400 towards this on a low month. But a good month, you could be throwing 3,000 at it. Right, sure. So I would kind of just map.

[Caller]

It out and I'm already set up on like their minimum amounts, 400 something a month. So I've been actively attacking it for a couple of years, but it seems like every dollar that goes into it's just paying off the accruing interest, you know.

[Rachel Cruz]

Right.

[George Campbell]

You need to get way more aggressive on this. Which means all focus is on this IRS debt. No extra on the mortgage. Your budget is bare bones. You are just covering four walls, Food, utility, shelter, trans insurance. Anything else is going towards this and try to make, make it to where there's no gap in income. Now I understand you're gonna have some really good months and some rough months, but I don't want you just sitting around going, well, there's no work to be done right now.

[Caller]

Sure, I guess in general, you, you wouldn't, you know, I mean, I could run the HELOC up more and pay that and it might be less percentage that I'm paying.

[George Campbell]

We are not adding a cent to the heloc. We're not going to keep going with this line of credit. We are done with that. So just keep it where it is, keep up with the minimum payment and then all of your guns are pointed toward this IRS debt for the time being.

[Caller]

Do you think it would make sense to sell off additional assets to try to do this?

[George Campbell]

What do you have?

[Caller]

Well, I've got a considerable number of vehicles and machinery that are mostly associated with the business. I mean they, they're for all intents and purposes mine, but the business owns them.

[George Campbell]

Yeah. Would it decimate the business income if you sold these off?

[Rachel Cruz]

Do you need it though to run your business?

[Caller]

Well, it's probably like a half and half kind of number. I mean, you know, skid steers and tractors and things that are relatively essential.

[Rachel Cruz]

That you have one piece of machinery you're thinking of that you're like, okay, I could Sell that and be okay.

[George Campbell]

Doesn't get a lot of use, doesn't create a lot of revenue right now.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

What could you get for that?

[Caller]

I mean, probably somewhere between 15 and 20. Wow. Yeah.

[George Campbell]

That period with your savings gets you out of the irs, like, tomorrow.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yes.

[Caller]

I kind of figured y' all would be on that. That boat.

[George Campbell]

And you can always buy use later if you need it. Right? With cash.

[Caller]

Sure.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. And again, that's all saying that that's not affecting your business. I don't want you to have to turn.

[George Campbell]

I don't want you to lose half your income because you sold this thing.

[Rachel Cruz]

Right, right, right. So you want to be smart about it, but if it's something that you're really not using or really need and you get 20 grand off of it.

[George Campbell]

Yeah, I'm doing that for sure.

[Rachel Cruz]

Sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Caller]

I'm a huge advocate of not having car loans, and I fix them all myself and whatnot, so that's great.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. Anything you have, Matt, I would. Because I think if you had no IRS debt and no heloc, how would you. You feel.

[Caller]

Like I could scream.

[Rachel Cruz]

Like amazing.

[Caller]

Hi.

[Rachel Cruz]

I can scream. I'm debt free. Exactly. Yeah. So I'm like, yeah, whatever you could do to get to that level of peace and control is what we're after. And then later, when the business is doing great and you have all this freed up money because you don't have debt, you're able to save. And if you need to go buy.

[George Campbell]

Some equipment, cash flow, some equipment. I'm changing the Dave quote now. It's sell so much stuff, the skid steer thinks it's next because it is, my friend. Good luck selling it. Hope you get a great buyer who's happy to pay you what it's worth. Welcome back to the Ramsey show and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. I'm George Campbell joined by Rachel Cruz. The number to call is 888-255-225. If you want to join the conversation, John is in Jacksonville, Florida. Up next. John, welcome to the show.

[Caller]

How are y' all doing?

[George Campbell]

Great. How can we help?

[Caller]

Yes. First of all, I'd like to say thank you all for everything y' all do on. My wife and I are 36 years old, and by the time we're 40, we are potentially going to be network millionaires due to what y' all teach on this show.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, my gosh. All the work you've guys done, we.

[George Campbell]

Were just sitting here doing jack squat. You did the hard work, man. Proud of you.

[Caller]

Well, Thank y' all so much. It's definitely changed the family trajectory. However, unfortunately, our. My mother and father are not in the same state. My father passed away on the 12th of January, and I am my mother's financial power of attorney and they are in or she is in some pretty bad financial jeopardy. So I'm looking for Yalls advice.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, no. I'm sorry about your dad. Was. You say it was just this January, like this month?

[Caller]

This month, Correct.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, so sorry. Okay, so what. Yeah. What did he. What did he leave your mom with? With?

[Caller]

So we'll go ahead and set aside the $70,000 mortgage, but it's a total of $113,526.54 of debt. My mom is 61 years old. She's still currently working, but only nets 37,000 a year.

[George Campbell]

Okay, what kind of debt is 113?

[Caller]

Yeah, so the 113 is $50,000 worth of IRS debt. 23,000 is owed to collections. Let's see. We have got to get my stuff together here.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, it's about 40,000 more somewhere. There's credit card debt, right?

[Caller]

Right. Yeah. So let's see. $22,305.29 in credit cards debt.

[Rachel Cruz]

And that's different than the debt and collections, correct?

[Caller]

That is different than the debt that's in collection.

[Rachel Cruz]

Debt and collections. What is that? Is that medical debt? Is that credit cards?

[Caller]

Well, it was a personal loan that he dealt with some dementia later in his life.

Oh, that. That.

That personal loan. He ended up forgetting to pay for getting the. Paid for getting to pay it. Got passed off collections.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, got it.

[Caller]

So.

[Rachel Cruz]

And how much is. Yeah. Anymore?

[Caller]

I'm sorry.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. Any more consumer debt?

[Caller]

Yes, they have $14,755.73 in auto and personal loans. And then there's another $3,465.52 in a personal loan as well.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. The. The 14,000. Is that one car or two cars?

[Caller]

So the 14,000. The auto. The auto loan is $2,634.74. The other part of that 14,000 is two personal loans.

[Rachel Cruz]

Gosh. Okay, what was he using all those personal loans for? What was he doing?

[Caller]

Yeah, that's. We don't even know why they were taken out. We really don't.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, my God.

[George Campbell]

Now, were these all in his name or were they jointly held Held one.

[Caller]

No.

So there. All three of these are in his name, but there's one person alone in my mom's name, which is $3,465.

[George Campbell]

Okay. Well, I just want to make sure that we don't go paying debts that she doesn't legally owe if they're only in his name and not jointly held. Now, I'm assuming they did their taxes married filing jointly.

[Caller]

Yeah, that's a good question. I actually think they get them separate and I can't speak to that constantly.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. Because the IRS debt would be.

[George Campbell]

Yeah. If it, if they file it jointly, then she's going to be responsible. But if not, she may not be. The estate would pay it, but not her personally. And if the, you know, so if the estate can't cover it, she may not owe it personally. That's where I want to get clear on this. And you may need to work with an estate attorney to kind of go through all this mess and figure out what was owed, whose name is on what. What does she legally have to pay. Then we can get a real game plan of what we're do to.

[Caller]

Going.

[George Campbell]

Going to do.

[Caller]

I gotcha. I'm taking notes now because if, you.

[George Campbell]

Know, 75% of the debt is wiped away, you know, you send a death certificate and they go, all right, we can't collect. It wasn't in her name. And that might really save her in this. In that regard, because she can't pay 113 grand.

[Caller]

The IRS debt is. Is definitely going to fall on her, I think regardless of whether or not they.

Because it.

For whatever reason. And she didn't know that she wasn't doing this since 2014. At some point in time there's something that changed to where she. Her taxes were not getting with hell. So. And his. For whatever reason, we're not getting withheld. We don't know if he over 10 years change that without her knowing. Yeah. So it. Since 2014.

Yeah.

Now when she found out that that was an issue, she got it changed. But that wasn't until two years that she found out that.

And he never had.

[Rachel Cruz]

Because if her taxes were not being withheld, then yes. Then some of this IRS that might be in her name. But I would. That's where George was saying, like to get clear on whose name. Yes. Is on this debt because that will make a significant difference and things like collections. John, you guys can. I mean, and on her behalf, you can help with this. You can settle that kind of stuff so quickly. You need the money for it. But they may settle pennies on the dollar, you know, with this $23,000. And it's not been paid. It's not been paid. They're not Expecting to get their money. So you may be able to settle for, gosh, 5,000. Yeah. Now you would need the cash to do that and go through that process. But yeah, there's some hope in that. But with the credit cards and all the personal loans, contact the banks and know and, and figure out whose name is on the debt. That's gonna be really important.

[Caller]

Yeah. I've already put all the legwork into whose names on the debt. The tax question I definitely need to get answered.

[George Campbell]

Okay, so have you pulled his credit report?

[Caller]

I have.

[George Campbell]

Okay. So that's going to give you a pretty clear picture of what is owed and then you can check the tax records as well.

[Rachel Cruz]

Did he have retirement savings or any anything?

[Caller]

He had no savings at all. I will give you this. So we, we did get a sigh relief. And I know how Dave preaches against whole life insurance. I guess in November he took out two policies for whole life insurance that nobody knew about. But whenever I started going to the statements, I found the payments. And one of them is 10k, the other one's 20k. And then we also just found out that he had a. From his retirement, he had a group term life that is still. That my mom's a beneficiary of for 29.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow.

[George Campbell]

There's like 60k sitting here to clean this up.

[Caller]

Right. We're working on trying to get my mom through the legwork, getting that stuff, but you know, that's gonna take some time. Right now they got a lot of payments coming out.

[George Campbell]

Yeah.

[Caller]

And you know, she gets paid on a weekly basis.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Campbell]

Can she make more? I don't know what she does, but at, at 61, she, she might still have, you know, another 15 years of work to go. And so if she can go make 50 or 60, this changes her life dramatically.

[Caller]

She currently works for the city.

And.

She'S trying to work on that retirement. Now she might be able to pick up some side gig because there is retirement involved in her currently her current job, but she may be able to look into picking up a side gig. I'm not so certain that she'd be willing to leave.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, it would be better for her to work hard and work uncomfortable hours honestly to get some of this cleaned up while she's young. So that way in 4, 5, 6 years she can possibly scale back while still saving for retirement and hopefully maybe still have enough there. But yeah. John, I'm sorry. Sorry.

[Dave Ramsey]

When you're tired of feeling stuck with money, there's just one solution to get different results. You have to do something different. No one accidentally wins with money.

[Caller]

Money.

[Dave Ramsey]

You have to have a game plan. And that begins with our get started assessment. Go to ramseysolutions.com start answer some questions and we'll show you what steps to take next. Don't stay stuck. Take control of your money. Starting Today, go with ramseysolutions.com start.

[Caller]

Foreign.

[George Campbell]

The Ramsey Show Question of the day is brought to you by WireFi. You don't have to stay stuck in defaulted private student loans forever. WireFi helps borrowers take back control with affordable refinancing options that actually work. Learn [e-mail] Ramsey that's yre f y.com Ramsey not available in all states.

[Rachel Cruz]

Today's question comes from Lucy in Oregon. She said, I'm concerned about being a target of deed fraud if we pay off our mortgage, if we keep our current mortgage, the bank would have to notify us if someone tried to take out a second mortgage to steal our equity. We're both in our 70s. I am retired and my husband plans to retire soon. The balance on the mortgage is $48,000 and we have the funds to take out of our 401k to pay it off. What should we we do?

[Caller]

Wow.

[George Campbell]

Okay. Well, I mean, deed fraud, it does exist. But I'm not going to be so paranoid that I keep my mortgage around for it.

[Rachel Cruz]

Do it right, because you can always, you know, if God forbid, that happened, it's not super common. More when you're like, you know, buying homes, making sure the deed's, you know, good. And I don't know, there's something, we.

[George Campbell]

Bought a home recently. We got owner title insurance, which protects you against that. And so if you're worried about it, I would look into one of those policies. Policies.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. To do that, you can sign up.

[George Campbell]

With your county and get deed alerts as well. So that's also one way to protect your tax.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. And you can also, you know, if it did happen, God forbid, you're not going to be on the line for it because it's fraud. And so you can go through the bank and, you know, maybe some, I don't know, lawsuit stuff, but at the end of the day, you're not going to have to owe it because it's fraud at that point.

[George Campbell]

Yeah. So I wouldn't be so worried that I avoid paying my house off. That's wild. You're in your 70s. There's a much more risk with this mortgage hanging around than there is that you guys experience deed fraud.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Campbell]

So I wouldn't worry about that. I would just pay it off and do your due diligence to stay protected. You know, freeze your credit, check the records with your county regularly, get the owner title insurance if you can. All of that good stuff. But it's a good question and it's a valid concern, so thank you for that. Allen is in Colorado. Up next. Next. What's going on?

[Caller]

Ellen, thank you for taking my call. I have a question about a 529 account that my wife and I have for our son. When he is finished with college, which is just a couple years down the road, there'll be approximately 120,000 left in the 529 account.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh wow.

[George Campbell]

Way to go.

[Caller]

I haven't. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty strong. I have an opinion on what to do with it, but I was just curious to get yo take.

[George Campbell]

How old is the 529? When did you open it?

[Caller]

Oh boy. Our son is 20, let's say 20 years ago.

[George Campbell]

Oh great. I was going to say there's the. With the new Secure 2.0 act you can roll over up to 35 grand if it's been open for 15 years. You know, you can use that periodically. You can't do all 35 at once, but up to the Roth IRA limit you can start funding that. So that's one option.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. Do you have other kids, Alan?

[Caller]

No, we don't just.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, it's just this. Yeah, well if you do that, you know, that's 35 out. So you got about what, 85 or so 95 left.

[George Campbell]

You said you had a plan already. I'm curious as to what you wanted to do.

[Caller]

So we. My thought is, is keep it. Keep the 529 it's word. We're the guardian of it. Put it in his name. He's an adult now. But don't let him touch it. Just have it be there. So it's generational. You know, when his kids are ready to go to college, that's going to be a pretty large sum. When his kids kids get ready to go to college, it'll be astronomical. It's something that you could really just leave.

[George Campbell]

That's true. A lot of people don't think about that. It becomes like an endowment basically for your own family. Generational wealth that no one ever goes into debt for education. And that's personally what I'm doing. A lot of people go, well I don't want to over fund it because what if they don't go to college and I go if I overfund it. They're going to love old great, great grandpa George for setting up this 529 many moons ago. And can I do some math for you? Your kid is 20, right?

[Caller]

He's 20.

[George Campbell]

So let's say he has a kid at, what, 25? Is that fair?

[Caller]

It's optimistic, but sure.

[George Campbell]

Okay, should we go 30? Is that more realistic? Yeah, go 30 plus 18 years. That kid then grows up.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. So your son will be 48 when your grandson. Granddaughter goes to college. Theoretically, how much would be in the.

[George Campbell]

Account from 20 to 48 if you just left, let's say 90 grand in there. Right.

[Rachel Cruz]

Didn't do anything.

[George Campbell]

You never contributed another dime. You'd have $1.4 million when he's 48. I hope that's enough to cover college at that point.

[Caller]

And something, too, I was thinking is, even if his kids don't want to go or do go, and there's extra at 65, correct me if I'm wrong, he can start using that for his own retirement with no penalties.

[George Campbell]

Yeah, there's a lot of stipulations with the 529 that. And even if he used it in before then, you know, he'd pay the 10% penalty. But other than that, it's not like wasted money. Yeah, you'll pay something thrown down the toilet. So I think you're being very wise with this. And I love the idea of creating generational wealth. And a lot of people don't realize the definition, Definition of beneficiary family is pretty loose. And so siblings, nieces, nephews, future kids, yourself, your spouse, a grandchild. There's so many options here that you could bless someone with in your family.

[Caller]

Agree. That's right.

[George Campbell]

And so let's say you got a brother and they're like, hey, they didn't prepare, but the kid doesn't deserve to go into crippling debt just because of that. I'd love to transfer this to them. You can change beneficiaries at any time at that point.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caller]

There's a lot of ways you can go with it.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes, for sure. Well done, Alan. That's usually not. It's usually the opposite problem that we talk to people about.

[George Campbell]

So it's like a parent plus loan. This is the exact opposite. So I'm curious, how much money did it cost for your kid to go through school?

[Caller]

So first off, something else, too. We owe it to Dave Ramsey from, like, 2005. You all have been a blessing to both my wife and, and I so much so we actually taught many, many FPU classes.

[George Campbell]

Thank you.

[Caller]

So. Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome. So this 529 account, we actually showed him how compounding interest works. We stopped investing in the 529 when he was a freshman in college at 150. That's about where it was at. He's gone through three years of school.

School.

And it's at 159.

Wow.

[Rachel Cruz]

It's crazy.

[George Campbell]

So you're telling me that it was growing faster than you were withdrawing?

[Caller]

That's what I'm telling you.

[George Campbell]

That's incredible.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's amazing.

[George Campbell]

And it sounds like he went to a reasonably priced school and maybe even got some other scholarships.

[Caller]

A few scholarships. He wasn't, you know, he was an Albert Einstein, but he did okay. And. And, yeah, it was a state school, so. 20, 22, 23,000.

[Rachel Cruz]

Totally.

[George Campbell]

That's incredible. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's the dream, Alan. Well done. Well done. We just, just applaud you. I mean, honestly, that is, if you're.

[George Campbell]

In the family tree of Allen, you should be thankful right now.

[Rachel Cruz]

That's right.

[George Campbell]

Pretty awesome. Thank you for the call. That's. That's a cool kind of case study. And what actually happens when you do it. Right.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Campbell]

And so I always recommend get started early on that 529, even if it's 100 bucks. 200 bucks, 300, 400, 500. Now you're talking six figures in there by the time the. When they're 18, for sure.

[Rachel Cruz]

And the college conversation, I feel like, has been around a little bit. Changing.

[Caller]

Right.

[Rachel Cruz]

That college is changing. We don't know what it's going to look like.

[George Campbell]

Are we all going to be YouTubers and AI is going to do all.

[Rachel Cruz]

The work for us? Yeah, that's right. Like, we don't know. But just remember, it's not stuck in there to your point. It's not like you're, you know, it's an insane amount. If you were to pull it out, just say, like, God forbid. You're like, listen, we don't. We don't need this at all. But we need the cash, so we're going to take the penalty. Okay, so then you do that, right? And you pay some of the penalty, but then you have your cash. It's not like you lose it completely.

[George Campbell]

Absolutely. And people ask, well, what if I want to invest for my kid for something else other than school? I say, great, do the 529. Don't trade those dollars for investing over here.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Campbell]

If you want to invest on Top of that you can just open a brokerage account in your name.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yep.

[George Campbell]

A non retirement account and put money in there. I'm not a fan of putting the accounts in your kids names because they legally then have access with the, you know, the UGM utmost. At 18, this kid might have 120 grand that's legally theirs. That's frightening. I don't know if you know, or any 18 year olds, most of them cannot be trusted with $120,000 pile of money. Most adults can't be trusted with that. And so I like the idea of me being able to control how much to give to that child for a, you know, a wedding or a down payment or a car, whatever it is to help them get a leg up.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. Delayed gratification. For a 45 year old, 50 year old, it's probably a little bit more embedded than a 18 year old.

[George Campbell]

Yes. Their prefrontal cortex is not yet fully there. So that's personally what I'm doing for my kids. I got the 529s for each of them and I've got the brokerage accounts so they'll be very thankful one day. When homes are $4 million.

[Rachel Cruz]

And your grandkids.

[George Campbell]

And my grandkids.

[Rachel Cruz]

Great, great, great Uncle George.

[George Campbell]

That's so weird to think about. But I think Grandpa George, George, I'm going to settle into that.

[Rachel Cruz]

I love it.

[George Campbell]

I'm going to be cranky.

[Rachel Cruz]

You're going to be like George Banks on like Steve Martin on Follow the Bride.

[George Campbell]

Oh, that's a good one. I thought you were going George Bailey. A lot of good Georges out there. Movies.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh, It's a Wonderful Life. That's a good one too. How many of you are ready for a fresh start with money this year? Maybe you want to pay off debt or start saving for retirement. And those are great goals. But you're also probably thinking, well sure, Rachel, but with what money? My budget is so tight as it is. Listen, I hear you. But you can do more with your money this year. And our EveryDollar budget app helps you find margin to make it happen. This is such a game changer. EveryDollar digs into your money situation just like we do on the show. Then it finds extra money you could put towards your goals every month. And the average person is finding $3015 in just 15 minutes. Think about what that could mean for your family. Think about how much more peace you would have. Guys, you can make this an amazing year with money. Go download everydollar and start for free today.

[George Campbell]

Buying or selling your home is a big deal. And with all the clickbait headlines and conflicting data out there, it's hard to know what's really happening in the housing market. So we're here to make the latest trends easy to understand. Median home prices dipped to about 400 grand last month, which is typical for this time of year. And mortgage rates also dip to 5.48% in December, down from 6.27% last January, giving buyers some breathing room. I just saw 30 year mortgages dip down below 6% for the first time in a long, a long time. So rates are unpredictable. We don't know what's going to happen. And the best time to buy is when you're financially ready, not when you hope home prices or rates drop. And if you want to learn more about the market trends and get free tools to help you buy or sell with confidence, go to ramseysolutions.com market or click the link in the show Notes if you're listening on podcast or YouTube. All right, we've got Lonnie up next in Dayton, Ohio. Lonnie, you with us? Yes.

[Caller]

How you doing?

[George Campbell]

Great. I see on my screen here that you were a baby steps millionaire. Is that true? Correct. That is fantastic. Congratulations. Every now and then we like to highlight a real person who followed the plan, follows these principles, and has won with money, doing it with a bunch of zeros on the end. And you are that person today. So congratulations.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[George Campbell]

So tell us your age.

[Caller]

I am 54.

[George Campbell]

And what is your net worth?

[Caller]

1.86 million.

[George Campbell]

Fantastic. And break the mix down for us.

[Caller]

I have about. I have a million in mutual funds that are scattered through my deferred compensation, a Roth ira, a small annuity, and a few hundred thousand in a investment through my bank.

[George Campbell]

Cool. What else?

[Caller]

And I have 400,000 in my pension, which is PERS. And that's the account value. If I were to quit, they would give me that amount. Or if I stick it through a couple more years, I would get the pension.

[George Campbell]

Awesome.

[Caller]

And I have 500,000 in real estate.

[George Campbell]

Fantastic. Is that your primary home?

[Caller]

I have two homes. I have a. My primary home, which is just a modest couple hundred thousand dollar home. And then I have a condo in Florida, which is another couple hundred thousand.

[George Campbell]

Awesome. And they're paid off?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Campbell]

Fantastic.

[Rachel Cruz]

Well done, Lonnie. What do you do for a living?

[Caller]

I'm a manager for a municipality drinking water facility.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, cool.

[George Campbell]

So kind of public works utility.

[Caller]

Yes. Been there 30 years.

[George Campbell]

Fantastic. Okay. And what was your worst Year of income in this field and best year of income.

[Caller]

I started out $11.25 an hour in 1996 and I thought it was great pay.

[George Campbell]

That's still pretty decent, honestly.

[Caller]

Yeah. And these last few years we've been so shorthanded, I've been doing a lot of overtime. So it's just these past couple years of this and tremendous six figures. Yeah. Easy 150,000 a year. Close.

[George Campbell]

Okay. Did you inherit any of this money?

[Caller]

No, I did not. But I would like to say, like, my fault. My dad, he did give me close to 10,000 when I was a young kid, a minor, and since I would get these statements from that money and I would see that grow and that just fascinated me that this money would grow like that. And being a minor, of course I couldn't touch it, but I could, you know, I still felt like it was mine.

[George Campbell]

Yeah.

[Caller]

So once I became an adult, I just. It just made me want to save more.

[George Campbell]

That's awesome. So did your dad teach you these financial principles?

[Caller]

Yeah, he did. He was. He's. He's very, if I can say, tight with his money and, you know, and I can understand why. So that he taught me that.

[George Campbell]

Yeah. That's awesome. Did you get a four year degree?

[Caller]

I have an associate's in mathematics and yeah, I have an associate's degree.

[Dave Ramsey]

Awesome.

[George Campbell]

Fantastic.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[George Campbell]

Man, you've really been crushing it. Are you single?

[Caller]

Yeah. Single, no kids. That does. That did help.

[George Campbell]

So just help speed things up. Less expenses, less people in the way as you are building. Well, yeah, that's good.

[Rachel Cruz]

What kind of car do you drive, Lonnie?

[Caller]

I have a couple vehicles. You know, just the average truck and a car. I've never owned a new car.

[Rachel Cruz]

What's the year on those?

[Caller]

My truck is a 2012. Pretty low miles.

[Rachel Cruz]

Is it a Toyota?

[Caller]

It is a. It is a gmc.

[Rachel Cruz]

Gmc. Okay. We get a lot of Hondas and Toyotas on these calls. I was curious.

[Caller]

Those are good cars. Yeah.

[George Campbell]

What else you got?

[Caller]

I have a Ford Crown Victoria. It's an old cop car that, that I was able to buy and it's a heavy duty car.

[George Campbell]

Fantastic, man. So what do you do with. With all the extra margin now at 54? I mean, you could retire if you wanted to, but it sounds like you love what you do.

[Caller]

You know, that's. That's a topic I wanted to talk about someday, you know, later on as I have this pension and I. And I. If I can. If I can wait two more years, I'll have my 32 years in. But, you know, just thinking about that, I just. God, I don't know if I can do it. You know, could I. Could I retire in just a year? Is it worth waiting for that pension?

[George Campbell]

What happens in two years with the pension? You get a big monthly payment. Yeah.

[Caller]

In two years I'll have. Once you get your 32 years, you qualify for your monthly pension, which is how much? $8200 a month.

[Rachel Cruz]

Nice.

[George Campbell]

That's a sweet payday.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. 54. I'm waiting.

[George Campbell]

You're still a young buck at 56, my friend. And then you don't even have to touch your investments ever again. It'll just become like generational wealth.

[Caller]

Yeah, right.

[Rachel Cruz]

Or you don't really have a lot of people leave some. But also, Lonnie, go have some fun.

[George Campbell]

Go do something crazy. What is the thing that you still want to do that you're like, I want to do this thing. This is the big splurge for me.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. What's like the big thing?

[Caller]

I, I just, I, I want to travel. I, I love traveling.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Campbell]

What's the next trip that you're excited about that you want to, to book.

[Caller]

Looking for? I'd love to go to Norway. Just. I, I been to Europe a few times. I've been Australia. It's just, I just, I love the idea of new places.

[George Campbell]

That's fantastic.

[Rachel Cruz]

Love it.

[George Campbell]

Man, you're an inspiration, Lonnie. A lot of people want to be you when they grow up and you've done a good job. You can, you can tell these principles start early. You can make up for lost time if you're starting late at 40 or 50. But, man, you've been working hard for 32 years living on less than you make, putting money into the investment accounts day in, day out.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah. And his, you know, his best year, he was saying, was recently at $150,000, which is a lot. Right. But also, it's not like he's making $500,000. You don't have to make half a million dollars to do this. Right. But it is that consistency over time that we see day in and day out with these net worth, you know, baby, baby steps, millionaires.

[George Campbell]

And it's, it's awesome, it's encouraging. And that really is, is, is these are the principles, guys. Here's the recipe. If you're like, well, how am I going to become a millionaire or a multi millionaire, which, you know, he's on his way to. Here's the principle. Live on less than you make, invest the difference consistently and then just wait and compound growth will eventually take over. And what you'll realize is you put $100,000 in over time, but now it's grown to a million dollars. So 900,000 might just be the compound down growth.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yep.

[George Campbell]

Because your $10 made a dollar, so now you have $11. Well, that made another, you know, 1.1 dollar 10 cents. And so it keeps spiraling and adding up over time. And it's hard because you don't see it at first. At first you're like, this isn't even doing anything. I'd rather enjoy this money. But if you just wait and hang on and you can type some numbers into our investment calculator on our website, it will blow your mind. And if you got kids, I mean, he said, I got this at 10 years years old.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes.

[George Campbell]

And he didn't even have the Internet back then to pop in an investment.

[Rachel Cruz]

Calculator to see what that would be.

[George Campbell]

He had to do, like, math on paper.

[Rachel Cruz]

But that's a, what a testament to his dad, though. His dad brought him in and showed him how and it worked. So to Lonnie's credit, like, he, it stuck for him. But there's something about, you know, exposing your kids to this stuff to be like, hey, this is what can happen. Right? You're giving them that knowledge, and that's a gift like what Lonnie's dad did. I'm like, yes, that's huge.

[George Campbell]

I love that. That we have our Ramsey education, foundations and personal finance curriculum in high schools all across the country. And we show them the comp that's.

[Rachel Cruz]

One of their favorite editions. So, yes, you can buy it for your kids at home.

[George Campbell]

So RamseyEducation.com if you're like, hey, I want my kids to get this earlier than I did, or maybe you still need to learn. That's okay. Just lead and say, hey, I want to learn along with you. And that compound growth lesson will blow their mind. They're going to go, hey, maybe I shouldn't buy that toy. I'm to going to. I got enough toys, Mom. Can you teach me how to, like, save this money? Invest it. That's a cool lesson. Hey, George Camel here. So you're thinking about buying or selling your home? It's exciting, but there's a lot to think about. And all those decisions can feel overwhelming. Well, here's the good news. You don't have to tackle the process alone. Ramsey's real estate home base is the place to find all of your free tools. And resources for help to get prepared to buy or sell your home with confidence. You'll find calculators, start to finish guides, a podcast, and even an in depth video course hosted by yours truly. What's not to love? So if you're ready to take the next steps toward your home goals, go to ramseysolutions.com realestate that's ramseysolutions.com. Our scripture of the day, Psalm 94:19. When anxiety was, was great within me. Your consolation brought me joy. Jim Collins said, greatness is not a function of circumstance. Greatness, it turns out, is largely a matter of conscious choice and discipline. I like it. Paul is up next in Phoenix, Arizona. What's going on, Paul?

[Caller]

Hey guys, taking my call? I'm probably overthinking this. I know you guys. I listen to you pretty religiously and you say pay off your house as soon as possible. We owe maybe 180 on our house. It's worth in the mid-400s and we have the cash to do that. But my only concern, not a concern, is we refinanced in 2020 when the rates were 3%. Does it make sense at this point still to pay that off or use that money money elsewhere? We have, we have IRAs, 401ks, owner KS, stuff like that going. And I didn't know if I should put be putting more money in that or just pay the house off.

[George Campbell]

Well, where are you guys at in the baby steps? Do you have any consumer debt.

[Caller]

Credit cards? I have a work truck payment. I do home remodeling. General contractor.

[Rachel Cruz]

How much do you owe on the truck?

[Caller]

Like 40.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. And how much do you own credit cards?

[Caller]

None.

[Rachel Cruz]

Oh. Oh, no credit cards. I'm sorry.

[George Campbell]

What else?

[Caller]

Minimal student loans. I, I don't know. It's like. Oh, I shouldn't say minimal. 35,000 maybe.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. And how much do you have in savings?

[Caller]

I want to say 350. 350,000.

[Rachel Cruz]

Whoa. Why are you, why don't you pay off everything?

[George Campbell]

You could pay off all of your debt and your mortgage, like your consumer debt plus mortgage and still have money left over.

[Caller]

Well, I'm looking at possibly buying a lot or two and building a house. Like I said, I'm a general contractor.

[George Campbell]

And building a new house.

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Campbell]

And still keeping the old one.

[Caller]

Well, yeah, it would, it would be for selling. Buying a lot. Yeah. We can build the house. House roughly for 200,000 with the lot maybe 220 and sell it for 323. 30.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay, well here's not to live in.

[George Campbell]

You're just. It's like a spec home that you just want to sell because you can do this stuff. Okay, well, here's where that would fall in the baby steps. And this is the plan we teach. It's the one Rachel and I follow. And here it is. You pay off all consumer debt. Then you get a fully funded emergency fund. Then you're investing 15% of your income into retirement. Retirement. Putting a little away for college. Anything else can go towards mortgage principal. And so if you followed that through, which you can do in one fell swoop, which is amazing, you would pay off consumer debt. That's 75 total. Okay. And you said you had 350, right? In savings?

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Campbell]

So you pay off the 75 in consumer debt. Let's leave another, I don't know, 40 for your emergency fund. Is that fair?

[Caller]

I would think so, yes.

[George Campbell]

Okay. And then we're going to subtract your mortgage. That had that. Yeah, 180. So that leaves you with a cool 55 grand left over to then start. That's kind of your new fund to start on this house project. So what's the lot going to cost?

[Caller]

The lots are 30.

[George Campbell]

Okay. Roughly, you could buy the lot for now after doing all of this. And by the way, think about how much you have freed up. What is your truck payment?

[Caller]

800.

[George Campbell]

And what's your student loan payment?

[Caller]

I want to say 300, 325.

[George Campbell]

And what's your mortgage payment?

[Caller]

I pay more than the minimum. I don't remember the minimum, but I pay like 1600amonth.

[George Campbell]

And that's with extra.

[Caller]

Yes.

[George Campbell]

So should we call it 1200? You think you're putting a few hundred extra?

[Caller]

I think it's in the 12, yes.

[George Campbell]

Okay, so you would free up $2,300 a month, which means you could save 28 grand in one year just by freeing up the payments. That's. By doing nothing else. That's without your extra. Which means you could probably cash flow this build.

[Caller]

After I pay everything off.

[George Campbell]

Yeah, exactly. And it reduces your risk. Think about that. Now you're not freaking out because you don't have a mortgage payment. You don't have any consumer debt, and you can cash flow this whole project, and then you're less worried and less desperate as you go through with this.

[Caller]

Okay.

[George Campbell]

That puts you in baby step seven. So then the world is your oyster. You can invest more than 15%. You can purchase real estate in cash, and that's exactly what you're going to be doing right you're not taking out any debt to do this lot or build?

[Caller]

I wasn't planning on it. With the cash I have currently, plus one of my 401ks is actually a money market which I have like 130,000 in it.

[George Campbell]

You're telling me you didn't invest in the money? Was it ever invested?

[Caller]

Well, some of it, like I said. Some are in Roth IRA. Roth and traditional IRAs, and a couple of one owner K. That's all through this. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruz]

But if you're 401k, if the money's in a money market account that's not.

[Caller]

Invested so well, it's a separate amount. That's okay.

[Rachel Cruz]

So you do have a 401k that has invested.

[Caller]

Correct.

[Rachel Cruz]

Okay. And then you just have a separate money marketing.

[George Campbell]

I wouldn't touch any of those. I think you can cash flow this. You sounds like you have a great income too. What do you make a year?

[Caller]

Most years in the mid low to mid-200s.

[George Campbell]

Fantastic.

[Rachel Cruz]

It's great.

[George Campbell]

And so worst case, this, this lot and build might be delayed a tiny bit, but man, the piece it's going to give you and the, the de risking you're about to do by paying everything, everything off, it's going to feel so good. And I have no doubt that you're going to be able to stack up that savings account right back to where it was.

[Rachel Cruz]

And I know it's such a weird way of looking at real estate because people, you know, they don't have the cash. Paul, like you do, right, to be able to go in and, and do something. But the beautiful thing when you do it all with cash and you know, this being in real estate, I'm like, you know, even if the world, you know, goes up in a pandemic again or whatever and everyone kind of freaks out and I don't know, there's just something about saying, okay, I don't owe a bank this money on this real estate. And if we have to sit on it for a little bit, we're in no rush. We don't owe anyone anything on it. So we can actually. We're not urgent to get rid of it because there's a payment and we're all stressed about it and you would actually possibly lose money in that way. We're going to just have the ability to have time on our side and all the control and all the power. And then when it does sell, and I'm praying it does, and you make 100 grand lots, an extra 100 grand just to you guys, right? There's nothing to, to pay back. So there's something so nice.

[George Campbell]

But.

[Rachel Cruz]

And I know you said originally you were going to do that anyways, but I would encourage you too, because this plan, the baby steps, it does cause a little bit more patience because you are going to have to save up to do this where you think like, okay, but I could just do it today because I have the money. But doing it in this order, it's a little bit slower, but it has way more control and way more peace. And that's kind of, that's what we're solving for.

[Caller]

Okay. All right.

[George Campbell]

So the big question everyone wants to know, are you about to go pay off your consumer debts today?

[Caller]

We are going to plan it. Yes.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yeah.

[George Campbell]

That's a win, man. I'm so proud of you, Paul. Dude, you're a stud. That's incredible.

[Rachel Cruz]

Well done.

[George Campbell]

Because if you have the savings muscle to save up 350 grand, that tells me you're going to build massive wealth. And so this debt is just a little, you know, it's an ankle biter at this point.

[Rachel Cruz]

Totally. That's right. That's right.

[George Campbell]

Just get rid of it.

[Rachel Cruz]

Get rid of it.

[George Campbell]

That truck drives different when it doesn't have a pay payment attached. And you can never be underwater on a paid for truck. That's the beautiful thing.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. Not having that payment.

[George Campbell]

That is a controversial Ramsey principle is paying cash for investment real estate. It usually shuts. It's like we're dream killers.

[Rachel Cruz]

I know.

[George Campbell]

Like, Rachel, can I get a property? I want to be an investor and I want to have an Airbnb. And we're like, do you have money to do that? No, I can do a nothing down program I found on Tick Tock.

[Rachel Cruz]

I bought a course from Jared and.

[George Campbell]

He'S never trusted Jaren with a course course. It's so true. But again, our plan is not about, well, what is the fastest way to get a bunch of money quick? You have to factor in risk. You have to factor in your own mental and emotional health. When you have that payment, you have to make every month and it has to work out and you have to get it booked on the Airbnb and you have to have a tenant, you have to have a buyer for that.

[Rachel Cruz]

Spec or it's coming out of your pocket. And then the whole thing is just like.

[George Campbell]

And then there's a job loss or a spouse wants to stay at home or there's a health issue.

[Rachel Cruz]

Like life happens.

[George Campbell]

That's the thing. When everything's going perfectly sure on paper. You might be able to make it work. But we plan for the things that are unplanned.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes. Because if or when life happens and all your plans go up in smoke, then that's where the stress in life comes. Right. And so if we can be avoiding that for. Yeah, maybe not making the risky big moves, but over time, just like Lonnie, we talked to our baby steps and Millionaire. Over time, it works. That's the thing.

[George Campbell]

Slow and low.

[Rachel Cruz]

Yes, it is.

[George Campbell]

You got to be a crock pot in a world full of microwaves. And that is so difficult because our world is moving so fast. And if you just go on social media, you're like, I'm behind. It's too late. I need to do 17 things. Why don't I own 10 Airbnbs by the time I'm 30? I'm a total failure. That's how it feels if you just start scrolling the Internet. And so you've got to unplug, get the blinders on going, I'm going to build well with peace instead of risk. That puts this hour of the Ramsey show in the books. Remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of peace, Christ Jesus.