Lean Into Hard Things—That’s Where Change Happens

Summary

The Ramsey Show: Lean Into Hard Things—That’s Where Change Happens

Date: October 31, 2025
Hosts: John Deloney & Rachel Cruze (Ramsey Network)
Episode Theme:
This episode is all about embracing challenges as catalysts for transformation—in your finances, relationships, and self-growth. John and Rachel field listener questions that center on financial tough spots, relationship tensions, and the courageous steps necessary to build a life of stability, integrity, and peace.

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1. Main Theme & Purpose

The episode’s driving message is that “leaning into hard things”—whether it's a tough money conversation, facing addiction, or setting boundaries with family—is where genuine change and future stability is born. Dave Ramsey and his co-hosts model candid, practical advice with a blend of compassion and tough love, urging listeners to make the next right move regardless of their current or past mistakes.

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2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

Relationship and Money

a. Committed Relationships Without Marriage (Boston Caller: Derek)

• Situation: Derek and his partner, both recovering from addiction, recently had a baby but struggle to get on the same financial page.

• Insights:

  • Cohabitation without marriage creates ongoing financial ambiguity and lack of legal protection, especially for dependents.
  • Rachel: “If she had called, I’d have told her: you’ve got to go to work. Because he could wake up tomorrow and be done, and then there’s nothing the courts can do.” [04:00]
  • Recommendation: Either formalize the relationship (marriage) and join finances, or keep everything fully split and ensure both parties are independently secure.

• Memorable Quote:

  • John: “You can do hard things. There are deeper values conversations. The tension is the path.” [08:12]

b. Long-term Unmarried Couples & Finances (Austin Caller: Sam)

• Situation: Seven years with his girlfriend, hesitant to get married due to divorced parents’ trauma, wondering about merging finances.

• Insights:

  • Do not combine finances before marriage; protect individual independence and legal safety.
  • The fear of marriage rooted in seeing his parents’ divorces is acknowledged.
  • John: “That’s like seeing people get hurt at a CrossFit gym and deciding exercise is bad. Learn to do marriage the right way—don’t avoid it.” [17:00]

• Memorable Quotes:

  • Rachel: “The statistics are worse for people who just ‘play house.’ Independence is critical until you’re ready to go all in.” [18:19]

Family & Boundaries

c. Renting to a Hoarding Parent (Denver Caller: Aubrey)

• Situation: Letting her mother (with hoarding issues) rent a family-owned property at reduced rent, leading to a cockroach infestation and lost Airbnb revenue.
• Insights:
  • “The tension is the path”—lean directly into uncomfortable boundaries for family, not around them.
  • Concrete new boundaries: Regular cleaning crews, possible counseling, check-ins.
  • John: “Choose guilt over resentment. Choose the guilt of a hard conversation, not the resentment that comes from letting things go on.” [26:24]

Financial Strategies

d. Investing in Precious Metals (Indiana Caller: David)

• Situation: Should I invest in silver after friends' success?
• Insights:
  • Commodities like silver are driven by fear, not solid long-term value.
  • Rachel: “Investment strategy should be boring: consistent returns over time in the market, not commodities.” [35:09]
  • Dave: “The wealthiest guy I know—himself—owns zero dollars in silver or gold.” [35:35]

e. Dealing With Major Debt (Pennsylvania Caller: Sean)

• Situation: Severely underwater on an RV ($40K upside down) plus substantial credit card and personal debt.
• Insights:
  • Sell the depreciating asset, pay the difference, get intense about paying off remaining debt.
  • Acknowledge the “stupid tax”—the real cost of past mistakes—but resolve not to repeat them.
  • Rachel: “Everyone does stupid stuff, but it’s stupid to keep repeating it.” [42:28]

Infidelity & Trust

f. Financial Infidelity & Gambling (NYC Caller: Nicole)

• Situation: Nicole’s husband secretly racks up $21K in gambling debt, upending their hard-won financial progress.
• Insights:
  • Treat this as “financial infidelity”—on par with other forms of betrayal.
  • Create a specific, time-bound path to rebuild trust:
    • Separate finances until certain milestones are met.
    • Set explicit boundaries and checkpoints for regaining financial access.
  • John: “You did the right thing separating your money. You get to define the path back to trust.” [53:06]

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The tension is the path.” (John Deloney, [24:39], recurring throughout)
• Rachel Cruze, on unmarried cohabitation:
  “You guys are playing marriage without it officially being that - and that’s always going to create tension and insecurity, especially with a child involved.” [03:19]
• John Deloney, on boundaries:
  “Choose guilt over resentment... It’s nothing you do moving forward that will feel ‘nice’—so head directly towards your discomfort.” [26:24]
• Rachel Cruze, on financial infidelity:
  “He made decisions. Now there are consequences—to the marriage, to trust, to your safety.” [53:09]

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4. Timestamps for Important Segments

• Derek & Relationship/Money Tensions: 00:32–08:25
• Sam & Unmarried, Long-term Relationships: 11:27–19:10
• Aubrey & Hoarding Parent Rental: 22:12–31:40
• Silver/Commodities Investments: 33:39–37:53
• Sean's RV Debt: 38:12–43:00
• Nicole's Financial Infidelity/Gambling: 45:34–53:28

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5. Tone and Language

The episode is supportive but frank. John Deloney uses consistent metaphors (“the tension is the path,” “choose guilt over resentment”) to encourage listeners to do what is hard, not what is easy or convenient. Rachel Cruze brings empathy and practical budgeting know-how, often focusing on women’s security and self-sufficiency. Both avoid judgment, naming mistakes directly but always focusing on “what’s the next right move?”

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6. Additional Calls & Rapid-Fire Answers

• Buying a Home After Divorce/Separation (Star, Seattle): Discussed weighing whether to keep the house with a hefty payment post-separation while lacking spousal support. Guidance: Only keep if you truly afford it, and consult legal/financial help. [59:07–64:52]
• How to Start Ramsey Steps with Little Savings (Kelly, Kansas City): Encouragement and tactical advice to use small savings as a buffer, avoid withdrawing from retirement, and work extra jobs to rapidly build momentum. [66:42–75:29]
• Leverage vs. Debt-Free Rental Properties (Cam, St. Louis): Strong advocacy to pay off business and rental debts for peace and stability, not just theoretical returns. [77:21–86:04]
• Retiring Early with Substantial Assets (Kim, Kansas City): Warnings about the dangers of retiring “from” work without clear purpose, despite $9M net worth. Encouraged to financial-plan for lifestyle changes and actual drawdown scenarios. [107:16–116:49]
• Buying a Minivan with Savings Anxiety (Michael, Charlotte): Permission to pause and save a bit more if anxious, but also reassurance that it’s okay to spend for the right family reasons. [118:24–125:13]

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7. Closing Insights

Key Takeaway:
Facing discomfort and “leaning in” to hard moves—whether that’s a tough boundary, a drastic budget, or a relationship-defining conversation—is the only path to lasting change. The show emphasizes not just technical know-how, but emotional bravery and candid, specific steps to move forward.

Final Words:
John: "There’s only one way to peace—and that’s through Christ Jesus, the Prince of Peace."

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For more resources, budgeting tools, or to ask a question live, visit www.ramseysolutions.com

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This summary highlights the prominent segments and advice from the episode “Lean Into Hard Things—That’s Where Change Happens,” focusing on actionable insights and the show’s characteristic blend of empathy and hard truths.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today.

[John Deloney]

Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we are here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fair Winds Credit Union studio, this is the Ramsey Show. I'm John Deloney joined by Rachel Cruz.

[Rachel Cruze]

Here we are. Here we are, back again.

[John Deloney]

We slapped up, flipped it, and reversed it. And I'm driving today. And we're here to help you make the next right move in. Your money and your work and your relationships, your life. Let's go out to Boston. To Boston and get a lager and talk to Derek. Let's see here. What's up, Derek? How are we doing, brother?

[Caller]

Hey, how are we doing, team?

[John Deloney]

We're good, man. What's up?

[Caller]

Awesome, man. Hey, so. Been watching you guys for a little while. Love. Love the content. I am currently with my significant other. We've been together for three years. In the last three years, we've been overcome a lot of obstacles, such as alcoholism and some addiction, and we're on the right path. We just had a baby, but when it comes to finances, it seems that we have a hard time communicating and getting on the same page. I love what you guys do, and I figured I'd give you a shout and just see if you could help point us in the right direction.

[John Deloney]

Dude, that's fantastic, man. So tell me about. You said overcoming alcoholism. That's a. That's a. That's a. A bold statement, man. Tell me how y' all are working through that.

[Caller]

Honestly, it was just a decision. You know, one day I started with me. I was just tired of the way life was going and, you know, had a lot of things that had happened that were just, you know, I guess would say rock bottom and very cool.

[John Deloney]

Are you going to meetings every day?

[Caller]

I'm not, but I will never touch it again.

[John Deloney]

I'm.

[Caller]

I'm. It's been three years, and I'm. I'm in a good spot.

[John Deloney]

I'm proud of you, man. That's fantastic.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, it's amazing.

[John Deloney]

All right, so when you come. When you say it's hard to get on the same page with money. Tell me about that.

[Caller]

Right now. You know, because the baby. I am the sole income. You know, she. She came into a little bit of money by selling some land. I am the one that's paying for most of the bills and whatnot. And, you know, she's paying down her debts, but it's just. It's when I'm, you know, paying for most of the Bills. It's been hard for me to build up my. My savings account. And so it's just, you know how to. Figuring out how to navigate through this. It's. It's.

[John Deloney]

You're not going to like the way I start this. Okay. And so you can just ignore me. But I. I've got to say this. You're going to continue to struggle mightily in this area, especially now that y' all are linked forever, because y' all created a human together until you decide to marry this person. Y' all get married and you decide that individually. Yalls stuff is now Yalls stuff.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. Because the hard thing, Derek, is it's almost like you guys are playing house, you're playing marriage without it actually being that. And that keeps being the run in of I'm having to provide because I have a baby and a girlfriend who's dependent upon my income now in order to support herself.

[John Deloney]

She's paying for her debts with her land that she sold.

[Rachel Cruze]

Very convoluted.

[John Deloney]

So I want to get my savings. You get what I'm saying? The path forward here is for y' all to make official what y' all have been dancing around for a while and then go full in. It's yalls debt, it's yalls money from the land sale, it's yalls savings account, and then you begin building this thing together.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. Is marriage in the discussion, Derek, at all?

[Caller]

It's been a thought. She's been married before. We. We haven't really had this conversation, but.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. Okay. So I would say where you guys are at relationally, from a. From a financial perspective, which is difficult because, again, she just had a baby. Is she going to go back to work or is she on maternity leave? What's her. What's her plan?

[Caller]

The plan as for right now is for me to be the sole income just because I do make a decent amount of money.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. Yeah. So what. I mean, what I would say, though, Derek, is, again, because of the situation, if I were her almost, if she had called in, I would tell her, you got to go to work. Because he could wake up tomorrow and be like, I'm done. And then. And then she's screwed. And there's no official marriage. So there's nothing. No, nothing the courts can do. There's no splitting assets. Like, there's nothing on her end that's protecting her. And so that scares me for her. So what I would say, in a perfect world, she goes and gets a job. You're working. And if you guys choose to Live together, not be married. You're splitting the bills 50, 50. And. Because she has to learn how to support herself, because if you end up walking out her, She's. She's up a creek, you know? And so I'm not saying you're going to do that. I hope you're not. But the fact that y' all haven't even talked about marriage, I'm like, and.

[John Deloney]

And here's the. The second layer here, dude, is she's just over there making her plans. So even your language, like, I guess I'm. I guess she's just going to stay at home. I get. Here's what money does. It reveals what. What matters to y', all, to both of you. And it also reveals your shared values. It reveals the path y' all have.

[Rachel Cruze]

Take together, that you're scared of your fears.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. What freaks you out. And so maybe for you, money is revealing. I need some. I'm. I'm a. I'm a dad now, man. I need some savings to feel safe. And she might say, I'm a mom now. I've got this debt hanging over our head. Like, my head and this potential baby like. Or this baby's head. Like, all those things are part of the conversations you take. But it's deeper than, hey, I want to save some money. I want to pay this off. Well, I paid the light bill. You're. That's only playing surface. The real conversations are you taking your arm and swiping it across the table and saying, I love you. We're linked forever now because we have a kid together. What kind of life do we want to build together? And then money is going to reveal the path. Do we want to get. Let's get out of debt as quick as we can. Let's get some savings so that we can both exhale in this house so this baby doesn't grow up in a house of tension. Let's decide. Okay. We're going to stay at home. You're going to stay at home for a year, maybe two years. We want to have a second kid. Right. You see all these deeper values conversations. Money just reveals. It's just the. It's just the lights on the dashboard that are telling you where you're going and how. How good your car is. Yeah.

[Caller]

Makes sense.

[John Deloney]

So if you sit down with her and say, how about this? If I gave you the Every Dollar app, like the. The. The premium version, the best budgeting app, and y' all sat down, could y' all create something together?

[Caller]

Absolutely.

[John Deloney]

Okay. Would you. Would you have the courage to do the next right thing with her and say, I'm interested in. I know you got burned in a previous marriage. I'm interested in being in your life forever and in this baby's life forever.

[Caller]

Absolutely.

[John Deloney]

Okay. That to me is. Is the next. What I would say is a responsible thing. And, dude, I've been digging into all the data on marriage, and if people decide that we're going to be married together, he takes both of you. We want to have a good or great marriage. Every part of your life improves. It's a. It's extraordinary financial. The amount of sex you have, the. The how your health outcomes, everything is a. A massive ROI on that way. But you have to both choose that we're going to do this thing together.

[Caller]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. And you. And you guys do have, you know, not that everyone has it easy by any means, but, I mean, you guys have come over addictions. She's been married previously, so there's. There's some.

[John Deloney]

You can do hard things. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

There's some ele. That are really, I think, great for you guys. I mean, it just shows that you guys can persevere, push through, but don't let those things also keep you stuck.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. They can act like shadows. Like, oh, what about. Remember when.

[Rachel Cruze]

That's right.

[John Deloney]

I mean, you've overcome. You're here, you've done amazing things. Now we're going to take the next harder step, which in my opinion is y' all sit down and have a hard conversation about getting married and making this thing official so both of y' all can feel safe and then joining this thing and knocking out the debt and the savings together. Dave, we got a lot of calls on this show where life happens. One day someone's healthy, they're working, providing for their family, and then a curveball hits.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, we hear it all the time. A car accident, a cancer diagnosis, a heart attack, and suddenly everything changes.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Caller]

And that's why you've always said that.

[John Deloney]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, that's right. You need 10 to 12 times your income in coverage. No gimmicks, no whole life junk, just straightforward term life protection. But there's another piece that people often overlook, and that's long term disability insurance. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

It's important to understand the difference between them. Life insurance steps in when you die. Disability insurance steps in while you're alive, but can't work. So it replaces a large part of your income. So the bills still get paid while you get back on your feet.

[Dave Ramsey]

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[John Deloney]

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[Dave Ramsey]

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[John Deloney]

So don't wait. It's fast, it's easy, and it could make all the difference. Go to zander.com or call 800-356-4282.

[Dave Ramsey]

Protect yourself, protect your income, protect your family.

[Caller]

Foreign.

[John Deloney]

It is official. The Ramsey Christmas cash giveaway is here. Each week, someone's gonna win 500 bucks and one grand prize winner will win $5,000. You can enter every day from now until December 20th. Why wouldn't you? It's free money. Enter daily. To increase your chances to win, go to ramseysolutions.comgiveaway right now to enter ramseysolutions.comgiveaway. you do not have to buy anything to be able to win. Let's go out to Austin, Texas, to the 512 and talk to Sam. What up, Sam?

[Caller]

Hi.

How's it going?

[John Deloney]

Good, brother. How are you, man?

[Caller]

Living the dream out here. Living the dream.

[John Deloney]

Very cool. Y' all recovered from that F1 trip? That was a wild weekend, huh?

[Caller]

F1 trip. I don't. It's been a team weekend here. I'm not sure.

[John Deloney]

Oh, good. I think a few weeks ago there was that F1 make. Five million people showed up in Austin, Texas. Wild, dude.

[Caller]

Oh, yeah, no, we're a little bit on the outskirts, so.

[John Deloney]

Oh, very good. Well done. Well done. All right. So what's up, brother?

[Caller]

Yeah, I'm just trying to get some guidance on how to merge mine and my girlfriend's finances.

[John Deloney]

Tell me more.

[Caller]

So I make before taxes about 88. She makes about 35. And, you know, we spend most of our relationships together sort of broke college kids. And I'm about a year and a half into actually making some good money. And I'm just thinking, well, you know, why is she paycheck to paycheck, and I'm over here, you know, putting into my retirement savings and all these things that doesn't seem right. So I'm trying to find sort of the best way to merge those two and ideally kind of maintain a little bit of independence. You know, I'd like for her to have a savings account for her goals and me for mine and something for our goals as well. So what's the situation?

[John Deloney]

I would recommend with all of my heart and soul that you do not combine income yet.

[Caller]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

The number of people that we have talked to over the years that combined income when they were dating or paid off each other's debt or bought each other a car or both bought a house together and then they broke up. And I know y' all are perfect. Y' all are never going to break up. But I would not have a job if everyone's plans worked out the way they thought. Right. And the thing about. We always tell people when you get married, the day you get home from your honeymoon, put everything in the same account.

[Rachel Cruze]

Right.

[John Deloney]

But. And this sounds kind of gross to say, but when you're married, there's a legal process for separating assets.

[Caller]

Right.

[John Deloney]

When you're just college kids, there's nothing. And you can find yourself in a situation where you've paid for somebody to go to college and then she just breaks up with you because the quarterback.

[Rachel Cruze]

Pay for her life or you pay.

[John Deloney]

For her life or your. Whatever. I'd much rather you get yourself set up and become the most marryable version of yourself possible and begin practicing these things in your life. And if you want to pay for dinners and all that, that's awesome. And you want to make sure she never has to, I don't know. Yeah, buy. Buy meals and you can take her on a trip or like, whatever y' all want to do. Fine. I would not get into combining finances and saving together and creating retirement plan. I mean, I just wouldn't get. I wouldn't go down that road, man, because there's no path for separation when it goes sideways.

[Caller]

Interesting. So excuse me. I'm getting all dry in the throat because I'm nervous being on.

[John Deloney]

No, you're good.

[Caller]

You're good.

[John Deloney]

I'm not very good at this, man. You don't have to be nervous about anything.

[Caller]

Does. Does your answer change or your viewpoint change at all? If I say, okay, we've been together seven years, I mean, we. You know how I say we? We live in a home together. Right? We built a home. That does not mean we own a house together. And if anything is the next step, it is marriage. Does that change your answer at all or would you say, no, there's a ring.

[Rachel Cruze]

No.

[Caller]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

Because, I mean, I talked to people who've been married for 20 years and they split up. So. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

People that have just. Yeah, yeah. And for her, Sam. For her sake. Kind of like the last caller, you know, I think about it from her perspect perspective, and you were like, it feels unfair that she. You know, I can't remember the wording you said. And I'm like, no, it is fair. She's working and making $35,000, and she has to learn how to manage that well within herself because, you know, if I don't know, and who knows what happens? Right? And like John said, y. I'm sure y' all will be together forever, which is great. But if not, if for some reason, in six months, something changes and she's been dependent upon you for so long and you're. And you walk out, well, then she's got to figure out a whole Life with making $35,000. So if I were her. If you guys are. Do you guys. Did you buy a house together? Are you renting together? What?

[Caller]

No, we're renting together.

[Rachel Cruze]

Renting. Okay. So, yeah, if what I would advise you guys to do is you just split everything 50, 50. And if you choose to do something different, that's totally fine. But just remember always in the back of your head that this is your income. That's not protected at all from a legal standpoint because there's no marriage. And. And if something were to happen, you're just gonna have to say, swallow the pill of dang for two years. I put her through college, bought her probably. Yeah, there's probably, you know, $30,000 or whatever that I gave to this woman that I'm not gonna have in my retirement. X, Y, and Z.

[John Deloney]

Right.

[Rachel Cruze]

So if you do. So I would go 50, 50 on everything. That's what I would do. Cause I would want her to understand how she needs to budget and the decisions she has to make. And again, like John said, if you want to. If you wanna pay for dates or whatever you wanna do, you can. But just know that the. Any amount of money that you are going over on her end, over her 50%, it's a little bit of a gamble financially.

[John Deloney]

Gift. If you've been together seven years, what are you waiting for? Or do you use Dave's language? You're playing house. Why not go make it official and start building something with deep roots to it?

[Caller]

Sure. Well, to be honest, the reason is because deep roots got me. Got my dad living on someone's couch after it didn't work, and he got her mom donating plasma to keep food on the table. With their deep roots didn't work.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

That's sort of the main thing.

[John Deloney]

And so let me. Let me.

[Caller]

Let me.

[John Deloney]

Let me take that. And I. I think that's a very real, honest answer that nobody ever gives me. And so I want to shout you out. I would hug you if you were here, because that's a. That's a very honest answer. You've seen marriage go awful, and so you're hesitant to jump into that. What I would tell you is that's like going to the gym and seeing somebody lifting weights, seeing a whole bunch of people lifting weights. Maybe you went to one of the original CrossFit gyms and everybody's getting hurt. That doesn't mean that exercise is bad. In fact, exercise is really, really important. What then becomes important is I got to learn how to do this well and do this right and do this safely over the long haul.

[Caller]

Right?

[John Deloney]

And so if you look at the marriage on data, there's a reason Jeff Bezos is getting remarried. There's a reason why the. The people who are running these massive. That's why they all go do it, is because it has deep, powerful benefits that are spiritual, that are emotional, that are financial, that are sexual. It's got all of it. It's incredible. If you make the decision to go all in and learn those skills that your parents didn't have and avoiding it or trying to do a hack around it, which is, we're just gonna do everything. But that. That actually is gonna set you up to get you into more trouble down the road, not less.

[Rachel Cruze]

Because the statistics are worse, what you guys are doing.

[John Deloney]

But, dude, your fear is real, honest. It's wired into your nervous system, man. You've got a picture of a car wreck. That doesn't mean you never drive again. That means you go sit with a professional. That means you learn how to drive really, really well defensively and safely so that you can drive for the long haul.

[Rachel Cruze]

Because, too Sam, I'm sure you guys want to start a family, right? I mean, you would love to have kids with her, I would assume.

[Caller]

Yeah, we're not so certain about that.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, never mind.

[John Deloney]

Geez, Rachel, relax.

[Caller]

Yeah, I was going to say that's.

[John Deloney]

Kids are great. Sorry.

[Caller]

You.

[John Deloney]

Hey, you're here because somebody had kids, but you call. You. You call. Just for. Just for the budgeting part.

[Rachel Cruze]

How old are you guys?

[John Deloney]

Yeah, how old are you?

[Caller]

I just turned 20. 9. She's going to be 28 here in a second.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah, the.

[John Deloney]

The. The. The best thing I can tell you to do is to have a deeper conversation about facing that fear.

[Caller]

Okay?

[John Deloney]

Your anxiety when it comes to getting married is real and it's earned. And I honor that. And I'll tell you, every bit of data says if you will go in and do the hard work of having a good or great marriage, everything in your life is better.

[Caller]

Gotcha. Okay. Well, I appreciate it, guys.

[John Deloney]

You're the man. Appreciate you, brother. We wish you the best. And if you want to come down here to Nashville and get married, there is a pedal tavern waiting for you and all of your friends because this is where everybody comes before they get married. Did you get a pedal tavern, Rachel?

[Rachel Cruze]

No, I was married 15, 16 years ago. They didn't have those here.

[Caller]

Oh, they didn't?

[John Deloney]

No. Oh, they had horse and carriages and all that stuff back then.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's a long time ago.

[John Deloney]

The horses drove the carriages.

[Rachel Cruze]

Oh, man.

[John Deloney]

Just a bunch of people.

[Rachel Cruze]

And Sam, I'd like for y' all to have kids. I don't know. They're going to after you get married.

[John Deloney]

I like Sam. Sam's a real deal. We'll be right back.

[Dave Ramsey]

If you've listened to me for more than five minutes, you know that being normal with your money is not a good thing. Because normal is broken. And I want you to be weird. That's why I love what we're doing with Fairwinds Credit Union. Our friends at Fairwinds just launched a brand new Ramsey debit card, and it says, debt is normal. Be weird right on the front. I love that because every time you swipe it, you're choosing to live differently with no credit card payments and no debt. You see, Fairwinds has been helping people like you ditch debt faster and build wealth for years. They're not trying to shove credit cards or auto loans in your face like the big banks do. And they've worked with us to create the Smart bundle for Ramsey fans. It includes a no fee checking account, a high yield savings account to supercharge your emergency fund, and now the Ramsey debit card to help you stay focused on the baby steps. We're excited for you to try it. So check them out [e-mail] Ramsey that's Fairwinds.org Ramsey insured by the NCUA.

[John Deloney]

Let's go out to Denver, Colorado and talk to the great and wonderful Auburn. Hey, Aubrey, what's up?

[Caller]

Hi. I'm excited to be talking to you guys, I'm doing good.

[John Deloney]

I'm excited to talk to you. What's going on?

[Caller]

Well, I've been following your content more recently. I really like the things that you share, especially around marriage. And that's something like, I've applied to my life. So I've been married for about 10 years. My husband and I have three kids.

[John Deloney]

Y' all are in it right now.

[Caller]

Yeah. So hopefully you don't hear any screaming, but we're used to it.

[John Deloney]

We've got kids at our house, too. It's all good.

[Caller]

Thanks. We're happy. We've been working really hard financially, so we both work, and we do. We're working really well towards our goals. And so the reason I'm calling today is I like to try and turn around and pay it forward. And so I've. We've been helping my mom out. So my mom, she's a single lady. She has my sister, who's about 11, and they have been moving in and out of apartments, not great apartments and such. And so we're blessed enough to have two houses. We live in one, and they both have Airbnb basements. So we decided to rent the second one, the top level, to my mom and my sister. And with the condition of, like, hey, we're going to be Airbnb the basement. Because we live near ski resorts, so that's been really good for us, and she understood that, and we give her reduced rent. We do make her pay rent, but reduced just because we want to help her out. Yeah. And it hasn't. It's been a couple years, and we've kind of run into some major problems. So what are the.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, what are the problems?

[Caller]

She kind of is a hoarder. And so at first it wasn't bad, but it, like, accumulates over time, which at first I was like, you know what? Like, I'm gonna let her, like, live in the house the way she wants to, as long as the outside of the house is okay. But long story short, we now have a cockroach infestation in the house, which is really bad. And we got a lot of, like, bad Airbnb reviews. And so we just. We just had to cut the Airbnb income, which is not great. And so we're trying to navigate that because I. Obviously, we want to help my mom, but at the same time, it's kind of biting us in the butt. So I'm calling to see if you have any recommendations.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. Remember this line, the tension is the path. Okay, so that sounds all woo Woo. Where the uncomfortable conversation is, that's where you gotta head directly.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And so you guys know what has to happen here. Either there's two, there's, there's two things you'll know have to happen. Either she's got to move out and you'll have to have exterminators come in, you're gonna have to do some work on that place and get it back up and running or she gets to stay under some very strict new rules, one of which is no hoarding. We're going to have a cleaning crew. We're gonna like, we're gonna do some of those things. Or, and y' all know that one of those two things has to be true. And so the path is not trying to figure out a nice way to do that because it's nothing you do moving forward is going to be received as nice.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And you've probably been doing this dance your whole life, right?

[Caller]

Yeah, unfortunately.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. And it breaks my heart for you. Breaks my heart for your mom, especially this 11 year old little girl.

[Caller]

Huh.

[John Deloney]

But yeah, you all have to take that path and directly towards it. And now if you, if you sit down and say, here's not. Hey, mom, we need to. But hey, this is what's going to happen next. If you want to stay in this house, we're going to have a cleaner come in, we're going to have. All this stuff's going to have to be removed and we're gonna have somebody come in every 30 days and check the house. If you want to stay here. Great. Will she pack up and move and throw a fit or would she exhale and say thank you?

[Caller]

I, I honestly don't know. I think it could go either way. So that's kind of tricky. And here's what's gonna happen.

[John Deloney]

If you say nothing and you do nothing, the house just goes into further distance. It ends up with her leaving at some point.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And so also here's another great line to put in your back pocket. Choose guilt over resentment. Choose the guilt of the hard conversation and not. She doesn't deserve your resenting her existence. And if you let her live there and just destroy this house from the inside out, I'm going to put that back in your court. Because you didn't want to have hard conversations because it was going to make you feel bad, it was going to hurt your mom's feelings. And so every time her phone, you pick up your phone and she's called in, you're going to resent the fact that she's there. You're going to resent the fact that she's calling you. You're going to resent the fact that she didn't.

[Rachel Cruze]

They have a little bit of that now because you had to close the Airbnb, you know, like, I'm like, oh.

[John Deloney]

And you even knew, like, well, she's kind of a hoarder. But as long keeps it here and as long as you knew how it was going to end. Right. And so it's you just saying, okay, I'm going to own what I've got to own here, and then I'm going to create what happens next.

[Caller]

Yeah. One way I could see it going too, and I'd love to hear your thoughts, is like us laying the ground rules, like, hey, this needs to happen in order for you to stay and her like, saying, like, oh, yeah, sure. And then not really following them. So how would you navigate that? Like, you give her one warning and then say, sorry, we're going to end your lease.

[John Deloney]

Well, I would put some things in place.

[Caller]

Uhhuh.

[John Deloney]

Like a cleaning crew will come here every 30 days or every two weeks. I'm going to put that on your rent or we're going to cover it, but somebody will be here every. Every two weeks if the. We're going to double the trash service. I would put some very concrete things in place that are really outside of her control. These things are going to help her. To help her.

[Rachel Cruze]

These are things to, like, correct.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, this is. This is in service of her and of that home.

[Rachel Cruze]

But to your point, Aubrey, if for some reason it's just. It's unmanageable and the cleaners are like, we can't even.

[John Deloney]

We can't get in the door.

[Rachel Cruze]

Then all of it. Yeah. Then to me, that is a. That's her then breaking the boundary that you guys set. And that's on her at that point, not you. So she has, in that sense, displaced herself because she didn't keep the rules of the property, which any landlord would have right on the planet.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's just messy that it's her daughter. Right. Was she kicked out of. You said that she was going from apartment to apartment where she kicked out of these places or she just had to find a new location or cheaper rent or like, what was the reasons before that one?

[Caller]

I think she was politely kicked out. And the other one, I actually don't know, but I know she got in a big, actual legal disagreement with the landlord over her security deposit.

[Rachel Cruze]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

So she has a history of not being A great tenant.

[Rachel Cruze]

Right?

[Caller]

Yeah. And we knew that.

[John Deloney]

And maybe another thing to put on the table if y' all are in a financial position is to say, we're going to pay for six months for you to go see somebody finally. And you've had a hard life. We know you've had a hard life, and you struggle with various mental health challenges and emotional challenges. We're going to put. We got six months of counseling. We're going to put that. But this is contingent. If you want to stay, you got to go see somebody, and we're going to pay for it.

[Caller]

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. That's a great suggestion. Thank you.

[John Deloney]

But that might give her an excuse to go. Fine, I'll go see somebody so I can keep my house. But it lets her hang on to, like, the illusion of dignity while going to actually get the care that she knows, she knows she needs. I've never met a hoarder who wants to be in that situation.

[Caller]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

But it's that compulsion. It's just this inner engine that just keeps running. And so maybe that's another way to help. But it's going to come down to you having some really clear, firm. Here's the boundary and here's the exit strategy. If and when this happens.

[Rachel Cruze]

Are your husband. Where is he in the picture? Is he. Is he overly frustrated? Is he, like, done, or is he have, like, tons of grace and he's on the other side of you, even he.

[Caller]

So I. I kind of. Poor guy. I kind of put him in as a mediator because my mom and I don't have a great history. I basically do it for my little sister. And he's on board with that? 100%.

On board.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah.

[Caller]

He's definitely, like, on the frustrated side.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Because we've had to replace the fridge because she was, you know, putting too much stuff in the fridge and other things.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, so, Aubrey, I'm gonna ask John.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. You have to relieve him of that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

You gotta.

[John Deloney]

You can't put him in that situation.

[Rachel Cruze]

You have to be the one.

[Caller]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, that's fair.

[John Deloney]

Hug him and say thank you for going first. And he went out on a shield for you, and it's time for you to just step up, and y' all can do it together, obviously. But my rule of thumb is the. The child of the parent needs to go first.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah, that's fair.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's hard. It's hard, Aubrey. I mean, we get calls, not necessarily with this specific thing, but whenever a grown adult Passes their parent.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, it's tough.

[Rachel Cruze]

And they end up having to parent their parents. Do you know what I mean? Like, from that emotional side, all of it, like, it's just.

[Caller]

It's.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's really, really hard. So I think Yalls generosity and you lending out kind of that olive branch to her, wanting to help her in life and for your sister, I understand that that's part of the motivation. It's just so beautiful. It's so wonderful. But being able to do it, I think in a way that's good for you guys too, right? That you're not honest everybody. Yes, exactly.

[John Deloney]

Is there a chance your sister can move in with you?

[Caller]

Oh, I would wish that, but I don't think that ever going to be a possibility.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, y' all got some hard conversations to have. I would sit down with your husband and y' all write these things out, and I would probably put everything in writing and then y' all sit down and have the next hard conversation. The tension is the path here. This show is sponsored by Better Help. All right, here's the truth. I have great friends, a strong faith, an amazing wife and family, and I've even got two PhDs worth of information about how to be well. And yet the times that I've spent with a great therapist across my life have made all the difference for me. The right therapist can change everything. And this month, my friends at Better Help are shining the spotlight on therapists. These are people who truly make the world a better place. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the largest online therapy provider in the world. And BetterHelp works. Their average rating of 4.9 out of 5 proves it. Plus, BetterHelp is totally online, so it's easy to fit into your schedule. To get started, you just answer a few simple questions, and they'll connect you with a licensed therapist that helps fit your needs. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch at any time for no extra cost. This month, we celebrate the therapists who've helped millions of people take the next right step forward. If you're ready to find the therapist that's right for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Visit betterhelp.com Ramsey to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E-L-P.com Ramsey all right, let's go out to Indiana and talk to David. What's up, David? How we doing, brother?

[Caller]

Doing good. How you all doing?

[John Deloney]

Doing great. What's going on, man?

[Caller]

Not too much I just had a question about buying silver. We had some friends that did that and they got pretty big returns on that. And we didn't know if that was a good decision or not.

[Rachel Cruze]

No, not a great one. Just because David, usually commodities like that, gold, silver, all of it is so dependent upon honestly, the fear of what's going on in the current moment. So if something bad's happening around the world, usually that stuff spikes. And then if everything's good and everything's fine, it dips. And so you can really see a correlation with the amount of fear that the American people have in life. And if there's a lot going on and something scary is happening, all of those prices go up. And so overall, your investment strategy should just be in the market. It sounds more boring and all of it. And people also will take on precious metals and stuff for not just an investment purpose, but they do it for an end of the world apocalyptic plan to think that if something were to happen to the US dollar like that they have a bunch of gold and stuff. And listen, I love conspiracy theory. I could go down that rabbit hole really fast. But the truth is, if everything, if literally the US dollar did just completely crash, like if we had no currency but gold and silver, that's not even going to be something that's worth it. Because at that point I still have.

[John Deloney]

To trade that for coffee.

[Rachel Cruze]

The way the world. Yeah, I mean, it's going to be ammo, food and clean water. Like, right. Like I'm like, it's that. That's not even a little bag of gold. Everyone's like, I don't need that. I need food and shelter. Right. So at that point, so just overall, yeah, just an investment strategy that's just more proven over time has a longer track record of a consistent, you know, an idea of like a consistent return that you can see it is, it's still in the market.

[John Deloney]

And here like the existentially or philosophically, like you've got that answer. Right. But I would tell you like on the ground, the wealthiest guy I know personally that I hang out with is Dave Ramsey, and he owns $0 of silver or gold commodities. Okay, that's for me and my house. We owe $0 of silver and gold. So I don't put my personal money for me and my family into that stuff.

[Caller]

Okay, that, that was kind of my what I was thinking, but I just kind of wanted to make sure I know we did the total money makeover and you know, we have our money and you know, in a 401k and CDs.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah.

[Caller]

I've been retired for five years. But we just heard some, you know, someone was, you know, bought quite a bit of it and the price of silver went up. But that was. I was kind of leaning toward, you know, what you all just said. But I just.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes. Yeah. And, you know, and they could have, you know, they could have sold when it was high.

[John Deloney]

You can scratch a lottery ticket, dude. Everybody does. And they win. And somebody wins every day.

[Rachel Cruze]

But also, I always think about this. Someone said this years ago, and I was like, that is so true. They're like, if they have commercials on cable tv, it's always reverse mortgages. Buying gold and silver and walk in bathtubs. Like. Like, that's the. That's the.

[John Deloney]

There's a market they are preying on.

[Rachel Cruze]

I mean, genuinely. So you're like, okay, if they're going after a group of people, you know, for these things, like, reverse all of it. I'm like, probably not the product that I want to put my. My money into.

[Caller]

Yeah, well, I know. I've, you know, heard Dave say that the more the. That you get on investment, the riskier it is.

[John Deloney]

Well. And not necessarily, but it becomes more of a. Of a lottery shoot. Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

And I mean, I would say you look at the stock market last year, David, if you guys looked at your 401k, it was like 24%. I mean, it was. Last year was crazy. Crazy returns. And that was very safe. All in, you know, index funds or mutual funds. Nothing. Nothing wild. So. So sure, the economy can go up and down absolute, but it's not as volatile as commodities or precious metals, like what you're saying. So, yeah, from an investment strategy, we would. We'd say now you're better off doing. Yep. Having your money exactly what you're doing.

[John Deloney]

Boring, dude. Just keep being boring because that same friend's going to come back next month and be like, I just lost all my pants on silver. And you're gonna be like, oh, well, there you go. Just goes up and down, up and down. Let's go out to Pennsylvania and talk to Sean. Where is he? There he is. What's up, Sean?

[Caller]

Hey, how you doing?

[John Deloney]

Good, brother. What's up?

[Caller]

Hey. Okay, so my wife was a travel nurse and we financed an RV, fifth wheel. And I'm currently upside down on it by $40,000.

[Rachel Cruze]

Oh, man.

[John Deloney]

Dude, that's a. That's a kick in the guts, man.

[Caller]

Yeah. And so we bought a house because we were going to. We decided to settle down and we're going to get rid of the RV. Well, when we go get rid of the RV, we found out that we were 40,000 upside down.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, can I ask who, who gave you the estimate of what it's worth today?

[Caller]

I blue booked it.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. Okay.

[Caller]

And I've tried private settlement. I've tried going to a dealership. Dealership, of course, can get. Give you a very low number.

[Rachel Cruze]

What did y', all, what did y' all buy it for?

[Caller]

Bought it for a hundred thousand dollars.

[Rachel Cruze]

And it's worth now because I'm sure you've paid.

[Caller]

We've had it for a couple years. We owe 80,000 on it right now. And it's currently worth 40.

[Rachel Cruze]

Man. Do you have any savings?

[Caller]

Thousand dollar baby emergency fund.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. How much do you guys make a year?

[Caller]

180,000.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, well, that's a good thing. I mean, honestly, Sean, at this point I would, I would still, you know, if someone will take it, that's great. You're just going to have to pay the difference. And a part of me would love for y' all to save up and have that cash versus going and taking out a smaller loan. But if you, if you did, if you had it for sale and for some reason someone like, I don't know, messaged you and was like, oh, great, I would love to buy this thing, then you'd have to go get a small loan for the difference.

[John Deloney]

Well, it wouldn't be small. Be a $40,000.

[Rachel Cruze]

Well, compared to 80,000.

[John Deloney]

That's true.

[Rachel Cruze]

I'm trying to help Sean out. It's no big deal. You can do this.

[John Deloney]

Have you ever heard Dave talk about the stupid tax?

[Caller]

Yes.

[John Deloney]

That might just be this one, brother.

[Caller]

Yeah, Yeah.

[John Deloney]

A very painful, painful 40,000. I mean, I can't even. That's a lot of money, dude. But that hurts. But there's not a quick other path.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, it feels better than 80.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Caller]

And I kind of got. I was, I got a little dumb with it last year I. I went to go sell it to a dealership and they were going to give me 54. And I was like, well, it's kind of still a little low. I'm upside down, like $25,000. And then I went to go do it this year and they're like, oh, we'll give you 40. And I was like, oh, that turns.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, those things depreciate off a cliff, man.

[Rachel Cruze]

I know. Anything with motors and wheels is just all the way down. Yeah, I mean, that's just what you're going to have to do. Sean, I hate to say it, but I would rather pay off 40,000 than 80. So I hope you get it sold. And I would just put the 40,000. Like, baby step two. Do you. What other debt do you guys have?

[Caller]

So, of course we get. We've got the house, and then I've got a couple of personal loans, a couple credit cards.

[Rachel Cruze]

How much is it? How much are those.

[Caller]

Credit cards? Roughly about 25,000.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[Caller]

Personal loan I've got. That's about. Well, I Pay. That's like 5, $7,000 for the personal loan.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. And that's it.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. So, yeah, yeah, It'll be around $70,000.

[Caller]

Beater card.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yep. That's good. That's good. Yeah. So 70,000. But you guys, you make a ton of money. 180, right? I mean, before taxes. So, yeah, I mean, I would. I would force myself, Sean, you know, Golly. I would try to live on nothing.

[John Deloney]

24 months.

[Rachel Cruze]

Beans and rice and beans. Yeah. I mean, like. Oh, easily. Yeah, for sure. Give yourself 18 months and y' all just knock it out and just do nothing with your lives but work and eat at home and pay this debt off.

[Caller]

All right, Matt, I'm sure we've. We've struggled before, and we've, you know, pulled ourselves out of it before, so. And this kind of was, okay, let's.

[Rachel Cruze]

Don'T do that anymore. Let's learn.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, stop.

[Rachel Cruze]

Let's cut up the credit. Cut up the credit cards. No more personal loans. Like, once you guys get through this, this. And pay it off, be done. Be done with it. Learn. Like, everyone does stupid stuff, so there's nothing. There's no shame in that. But it's kind of stupid to go back and redo stupid stuff over and over again. Like, we don't want to do that.

[John Deloney]

And.

[Caller]

And. And we. We did it. We did it because we were. We were actually treating it as a house for the rv, because.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, but it's a terrible investment. Real estate goes up, RVs go down. So you guys need to do some. Do some more digging and research.

[John Deloney]

It's one of those things. Like, we wanted this to be true, so we figured out a way to make it true. And that choice just came up back and bitch it to the tune. 40 grand.

[Rachel Cruze]

You guys can do it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Totally.

[John Deloney]

Y' all can do it. Y' all be debt free in no time. Let's get after it.

[Dave Ramsey]

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[John Deloney]

Guardian Litigation Group LLP not available in Minnesota and Oregon. Results vary and no specific outcome is guaranteed. Debt settlement may negatively affect credit and not all creditors will negotiate or settle. Savings vary and may be taxable. Please review our website terms for more information. Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fair Winds Credit Union Studio, this is the Ramsey Show. I'm John Deloney joined by Rachel, the one and only cruise. And we are going to walk alongside you as we figure out what's the next right step. With your money, with your relationships, with your work, whatever you got going on in your life, we are here to help. Let's go out to New York City, man. They have not been in the news recently. And talk to Nicole. What's up? Nicole?

[Caller]

Hi.

[John Deloney]

How's it going?

[Caller]

I'm doing okay. Happy to be on the phone with you guys.

[John Deloney]

We are happy that you called. What's going on?

[Caller]

So I'm calling. Currently on Baby Step two. My husband and I had paid off all of our credit card debt over the past couple years. We paid off our cars and most of my student loans.

[Rachel Cruze]

Good for you guys. Well done.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, it's awesome.

[Caller]

Thank you. However, over the past four years, my husband, he developed a gambling problem.

Uh.

[John Deloney]

Oh.

[Caller]

We.

[John Deloney]

Take a breath. Take a breath. Take a breath. Take a breath. Take a breath. You're good. You're good.

[Caller]

We worked so hard to pay off all of this money and now he had racked up around 21,000 of credit cards and depleted pretty much all of our savings. He was laid off, unfortunately, in May. He was unemployed for the past Five months. And he actually just started a new job this week. So that's finally something positive. Yeah, I just feel conflicted because I feel like we were working so hard to make so much progress and then we took a big step backwards and now I have all of this credit card debt that I feel like it's just like another mountain to climb, and I feel conflicted. Do I pay off the credit card debt that he racked off? We had separated our accounts in the process of all of this because I kind of wanted to get a better handle on things.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, but you should have.

[John Deloney]

You gotta keep yourself safe.

[Rachel Cruze]

That was the right move. That's right.

[Caller]

And you know, I've been working to pay down. I just have a small amount of student loan left and I've been working to pay that down. We kind of went into storm mode. So I've just been. Been paying the minimum on that for the past couple months. But.

[John Deloney]

So here's, here's how I want you to look at this.

[Caller]

Okay, Here's.

[John Deloney]

I want you to look at it. Okay. I want you to think of it as though he had a romantic interest outside of your marriage. We call what he did around here financial infidelity. He cheated on you with money. Y' all made a commitment, y' all etched it into stone and he went behind your back and did something else else. Okay?

[Rachel Cruze]

Right.

[John Deloney]

And here's why that's important. When somebody calls and says, hey, my wife cheated on me and I think I want to try to make this work and I don't know what to do next. One of the first things I'll have them do is to create a 30 or 60 day path back to trust. And you get to decide. The person who gets cheated on gets to decide what rebuilding trust will look like. And the person who did the cheating gets to decide are they in or they out on this path. And so if it was another woman, you might say, I don't want you walking around, I want you to cancel all your social media accounts, delete them all. And I want to see your texts and I want to have location on your. On your tracker, on your phone for 60 days. You get to decide those things. And the other person can say, I'm not doing any of that. And then they're saying, I want out. And so when my question for you would be, if you're going to stay married, you punishing him by making him him earn and pay further, it's counterintuitive, but it further separates you guys. And the only way I'LL survive. This sort of betrayal is to decide we're both going to take a step back in, but not blindly and not naively, but with a path. And you get to decide what that path is. So question one is, do you want to stay married to this guy?

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Okay, I do.

[John Deloney]

You have to deal with two things. I heard. One is betrayal, financial betrayal. And the second one is just the way you said he's been out of work for five months. You've lost respect for this, as with him as a man.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And so it's giving him a path back towards trust and giving him a path back towards earning respect. And so my next question to you would be, okay, what does a path back to financial trust look like?

[Caller]

Well, that's kind of my question because I've separated our accounts. I've been trying to manage this kind of on my own for, you know, the past little bit. And he. He stopped gambling, I would say, like two months ago.

[John Deloney]

How do you know?

[Caller]

I mean, you.

[John Deloney]

Here's the deal.

[Caller]

I haven't seen anything come out of our account.

[John Deloney]

Okay, you don't, you don't know.

[Caller]

Wasn't working.

[John Deloney]

Hold on, hold on. You don't know.

[Caller]

Right.

[John Deloney]

And so one thing you need is certainty. I want you to go pull your credit report, all six of them. Three for you and three for him. They're free. You can pull them. Okay. I want you to make sure. And if he has gambling apps on his phone, I want you to. A path back to trust might be saying, delete all those apps off the phone. If he's got a group of guys that he went and hung out with and somewhere off, you know, 121st, I want you to say, I want you not spending time with those guys that are gambling every week. That's what I'm talking about. I. Until his job starts, I want to see you getting up at 4 o' clock in the morning and Ubering until workday starts. I want you to go throw boxes down the street with a moving company. And then when you get off, I want you to start to go work until 8pm drive an Uber to the airport and back. You get to decide what those things are. I'm just making some stuff up off top of my head. But you want to see him reinvest in. You reinvest in your marriage. And you want him to do things that are going to help him become more confident and more assure of himself. He's going to have to deal with the underlying challenge of why does he feel so dead in his skin that the only way he can feel alive in his life is to bet on professional sports. Right. He's got to go do that work. You get to decide what those things are. I can't give those to you. I can just give you some examples.

[Caller]

And so say he, you know, makes a turnaround, and he, you know, decides that he wants to stay in this marriage, too, and he is going to change his habits. At what point do I, you know, kind of trust him and say that we can kind of, like, join our finances again and kind of.

[John Deloney]

I would put. I would put. I love calendar dates. And to be clear, I want to try for six months, your check is going to deposit into this account that I have. And in six months, if we're living through all these things and we are reestablishing trust together, you're continuing to follow the trust plan I put in front of you. In six months, we're going to sit down. I've already booked us a nice restaurant, and we're going to go sit and talk about where is. What's the state of our marriage now. And if you feel. Still feel unsafe, then in six months, you're going to say, I want three more months. Or you're going to look at them. You're going to say, I'm going to go all in again. But I have an extra $5,000 in this account that I'm going to hold for six months until I roll it into our joint emergency Fun. Like, you get to decide those things. The thing I want you to be. I want you to be specific and have some dates on the calendar. Otherwise, he's going to feel like he's. He's running after a moving finish line. You get what I'm saying?

[Caller]

And I don't. Yeah, I don't want that. And I don't want him to feel like I'm treating him like a child either.

[John Deloney]

Correct. But also not.

[Rachel Cruze]

You're earning back trust.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. And you have to protect yourself. You were very wise to separate your money.

[Rachel Cruze]

And he made decisions that now there's consequences. There's real life consequences to a marriage that he has broken, in a sense. And so. So, no, I don't think it's you being a parent. I think if there were. If he had never done this and this is what you're doing, I'd be like, whew, okay, something's going on, Nicole. But you're not crazy. Like, this isn't. Yeah, this is not.

[John Deloney]

No, you did the right thing.

[Rachel Cruze]

This is not out of the box.

[John Deloney]

We want to go clarity. And I want you to think of what is a path back to trust. And then you're going to have to be uncomfortable. There's going to be moments when he's following that path and you're not going to want to trust him. And you're going to have to lean into that. That too.

[Rachel Cruze]

You've worked hard to control your money. You've been budgeting with intention, building a plan and creating a secure future for your family. But there's one area most people forget to protect their online data. So I use delete me because y' all data brokers collect and post personal information like your home address, phone number, and even your kids school's info. They do it without your permission. And once it's out there, it can be used by scammers, AI spam tools, and other people that you would never want to have access to your life. So think about it. You wouldn't hand that info to a stranger at the grocery store. So why let it sit there online for anyone to find it? Well, delete me helps you take control back. Their team of real live privacy experts find your exposed info, removes it from sketchy websites and makes sure that it stays gone. Then they send you a report so that you know exactly what they've taken care of. So protect your piece and the life that you're working so hard to build right now. Ramsey listeners get 20% [e-mail] Ramsey with code Ramsey at checkout. Do it today. That's joindeleteme.com Ramsey and code Ramsey.

[John Deloney]

Hey, welcome back. Hey. Take two seconds and however you're consuming the show, whether you're watching it on YouTube or you are listening to it on Spotify, on Apple podcasts, however you to listen, listen to it, take two seconds and hit the subscribe button. It pushes the show up in the algorithm and it kicks it over to people who are searching for help with their money, help with their marriages, help with their jobs. And man, I'm convinced more than ever that this country is going to heal from the inside out from neighbors helping out neighbors. And this is a way to do that. And it costs nothing. It takes two seconds. Hit the subscribe button and we're super grateful. But more importantly, your neighbor, who's never heard of us is going to be grateful when they start getting this stuff in their feed. All right, the question of the day. Our question of the day is sponsored by why refi you did not take out private student loans hoping to default, but life Happens. Why refi won't shame you? They're not going to beat you up. They're going to help you explore a real plan to get back on track. Head to yrefi.comramsey to find out more. That's the letter Y, r e f y.com Ramsey and it's not available in all states.

[Rachel Cruze]

Today's question comes from Mason in Wisconsin. He asks, is it better to teach kids about money using cash versus the popular debit cards like Green Light? Should they know how to handle tangible cash first before getting a debit card or does it matter? It's a good question. I mean, I think obviously with little kids it's going to be cash. You're not going to be handing them like a app, right, because they, they're not going to have a, a phone or, you know, the app Green Lights to be able to, I guess, reconcile the debit card and to see the transactions come in. So if you're talking about little kids, yeah, I would say cash for sure. And I do think still as teenagers, I think, you know, having cash in the mix is big. But I also know in 2025, I'm like, you know, I mean, even like our high school babysitters, they use Venmo. You know, that's how you pay them. Now you don't pay them cash because they have Apple pay and they shop online and it is the world we live in. So I do think you can, can transition to more of a digital way of money with teenagers faster than you probably would have 10 years ago. That's how my, my answer probably would have been cash, cash, cash, cash, cash for longer. But now the world that they live in, Yeah, I mean, it's just how they handle money. And so I almost want them to learn that responsibility of the method at which they handle money and how they're going to handle money outside your home and understand how to use that really well too. So I would say both. I think having some cash is still great to let them experience, you know, a transact action when they're having to let go of some, you know, let go of money to get something else. I still think there's something wired in us that's really important. But I also know the reality of our world today. And, and it is, it's, it's online and it's apps and it's, and it's cards.

[John Deloney]

So yeah, developmentally I want kids, I want a tactile experience. I want them to hold money and be able to count it and see the 1 and the 5 and the coin. I think that, I think holding it and seeing it spatially is important for a young kid. But, but we have a 15 year old and we have, we have a mix of both.

[Dave Ramsey]

Right.

[John Deloney]

And again, like you say, it's. I could give him a $20 bill on his cross country trip or I can just ship it from his account. Right, right. So, yeah, it's just. The world's changing.

[Caller]

I know.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's crazy, crazy, crazy. I know we were talking about digitals and phones and stuff during one of the breaks, but. But we were even told like the high school football games, the tickets. Tickets are on phones now. Like, it's that kind of. I'm like, it's just wild.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

I don't know. I feel like an old woman sometimes.

[John Deloney]

But that's what we call you behind your back.

[Rachel Cruze]

That. That's the world.

[John Deloney]

Grandma Rachel, let's go out to Seattle, Wash. Home of Alison Chains, and talk to Star. What's up, Star?

[Caller]

Hello. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you guys.

[John Deloney]

Thank you for calling and trusting us. What's up?

[Caller]

Yeah, so to, to summarize everything. I'm a newly single mother of four since March of this year. So I do jointly own a home with the father of my kids since 2021. We got it at a good 3% rate. And the mortgage isn't too bad. It's at roughly 2,600amonth. And so prior to the separation, I was a stay at home mom for four years. So ever since the separation, he's no longer contributing with anything financially. So I've kind of been just like in this weird transition of trying to get back on my feet and no child.

[Rachel Cruze]

You guys weren't married, Star.

[Caller]

Not legally married. Correct.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. Okay.

[John Deloney]

I think he still has child support duties though. Legally.

[Caller]

Correct. I just filed in August.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

I know I took so long to do, but I was just kind of.

[John Deloney]

No, there's a shell shock to it.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Deloney]

And let me, let me say this. The. Yeah, you can have the greatest. Let me take it away from the house because houses are so sensitive, especially with kids. If I went outside and somebody was trying to sell me a brand new jet that would cost $15 million if I bought it new, they're trying to sell it to me for $500,000. That would be an astounding deal. The problem is I don't have $500,000. So it might be a good deal in some marketplace. It wouldn't be a good deal for me because I don't have that money. And so whenever somebody finds herself in your situation, especially the way you frame that question, I want to ask you. I know you got a good rate. I know the house you live in is a good deal for that house. The real question here is this. Can you afford a $2,600 a month house payment, plus the electric and the water and the insurance?

[Caller]

Yes, I believe so.

[John Deloney]

You believe so or you know so?

[Caller]

I know so.

[Rachel Cruze]

How much. How much money do you bring in a month, Star?

[Caller]

Roughly 4,500.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[Caller]

Now, since I just started working, that is re.

[John Deloney]

That's half of your in take, take home income.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's a lot of house. Probably too much, I think. I think it's too much house. Star, if I were to be honest.

[John Deloney]

With you now, I don't know what you're gonna do with four kids. I don't know where you would go unless you had to go to a two bedroom apartment. But in Seattle, that might cost you 2600 bucks, huh?

[Caller]

Yeah, exactly. Mortgage is pretty much the same as rent right now.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Oh, man.

[Caller]

But then I was thinking, like, the child support that I'm gonna be receiving next month, I'm not sure exactly the amount, but I'm thinking roughly 1500. Uh, yeah, 1,500 roughly. That would also help.

[John Deloney]

That would definitely offset.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, part of it for sure.

[John Deloney]

Um, all right, so what's your question? I jumped right in on your house. I kind of ran over a little bit, and I apologize for that. How can I help?

[Caller]

Yeah, no worries. I was. That was part of my question though, is like, if it's the best for my children and I to stay here. We still owe 400,000 on the house. And I was just thinking long term, like, once I finish paying off the house. House, you know, reaching the goal of having no mortgage to pay and then saving up after that as much as possible.

[John Deloney]

That's a 400,000 bucks against. What do you make, 60 grand? Is that your salary?

[Caller]

Yes.

[John Deloney]

Okay. That's a really expensive house for 60 grand.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

And if you add the income of the child support. Right. I mean, it can go up to 72 or whatever.

[John Deloney]

You know, you could count 80 even 400,000 on $80,000 salary is.

[Rachel Cruze]

But it's still. Yeah, it's. It is a ton of house. It's a lot. Are both of your names on it, Star?

[Caller]

Yes, we own it jointly. It's like a joint.

[Rachel Cruze]

And so is he just hoping that you pay it and don't get behind and. Because, I mean, if something happens.

[Caller]

Sorry.

[Rachel Cruze]

Well, I was gonna say if something happens to the house, he's. He's on the line for it, too. So I would think in a little bit in his interest, he's going to want to make sure that either you sell it and you guys split the equity or. Or that you have enough of a means to keep it afloat. Because if. For some reason, if you went into a short sale or a foreclosure, whatever. Right. Like if you had. If you fell on hard times, his name's attached to it. So I would just think on his end, he's going to be somewhat invested in it.

[John Deloney]

Does he want to sell it and take the equity?

[Caller]

He does. He. And. But then I was just like, where are we going to live? Yeah, he does. He wants to sell it. That's why he's kind of manipulating me, like, to not give me anything to sell the house.

[Rachel Cruze]

Are the four kids his.

[Caller]

Three of them.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes, three of them are. Okay, well.

[John Deloney]

And since y'. All. Again, check with your attorney on this, but since y' all were not married, I think you're gonna. The only way to get him off of that is to refinance it.

[Caller]

Which.

[John Deloney]

Will lose that rate.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yep. So.

[Caller]

I do want to mention that. I do. We did. Before the separation, we verbally agreed to buy a family car. He said he was going to pay it, of course.

[John Deloney]

And that's my verbal matters. Yeah. You need to get an attorney. I hate to tell you that.

[Rachel Cruze]

Stay on the line, though. Star Christian's gonna pick up, and we're gonna you with one of our financial coaches to walk with you.

[John Deloney]

We'll pay for it. This. This. This first session here for you.

[Dave Ramsey]

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[John Deloney]

This is a paid advertisement in MLS ID 1591 in mlsconsumeraccess.org/housing lender. All right, let's roll out back to Kansas City and talk to. To Kelly. Where's she at? All right. What's up, Kelly?

[Caller]

Hi, my name is Kelly. Thank you so much for taking my call.

[John Deloney]

Of course. Thank you for calling.

[Caller]

Absolutely. So I was calling because I'm trying. My husband and I are just starting out. We're on step one.

[John Deloney]

Oh, you're new to the gang, new to the cult. We're gonna send you a label so you can drink. Welcome.

[Caller]

We're super excited, though.

[John Deloney]

We're glad you're here.

[Caller]

Thank you. Okay, so my. My primary question is I have about $9,000 in my four from work. I have roughly just under 16,000 in a traditional. Forgive me, my husband's mowing outside the window.

[John Deloney]

Yes, he should be right, Kelly.

[Caller]

We're just under 16,000 in a traditional IRA. And then we have just a little bit. It's under a thousand dollars in a money mark.

[Rachel Cruze]

Perfect. Okay.

[Caller]

But we're trying to figure out, do we use the money market for step one, or do we pull that out and put it into a savings account, or do we start a completely different savings account for that? Or. I guess I just don't know what to do.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes. Well, yeah, the thousand dollar baby, step one. That's perfect. You can do a money market account more recently. High yield savings accounts are doing really well too. I mean, it's not. It's. Your emergency fund is not a place to go and try to find like the best interest rate. Because this money's purpose is not to make money. It is to be just a safety net. But if you can get a better rate. But usually money market accounts, high yield savings accounts kind of are in the general same ballpark area. So I would leave that alone and then focus on paying off the debt. And that money will come from cutting expenses and working extra, selling stuff any way you can get creative. But we don't want to cash out any of the retirements because you will not only pay taxes, but also penalties and fees and all of that. Because. Are you guys 59 and a half? I guess I should ask that, but.

[Caller]

Well, My husband is 71 and I am 48.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, perfect. Yeah. I still would just keep everything there because it's growing. And even though you wouldn't get hit with penalties and stuff. I would just keep it as retirement and you guys pull it out as you need when that time comes. But then how much. How much debt is there?

[Caller]

We have 240,000 on our mortgage. We have.

Hold on, let me look.

Sorry, I'm just looking at my every dollar app here. We have.

[Rachel Cruze]

You went all in. Kelly.

[Caller]

And I have an interview for a second job on Monday.

[Rachel Cruze]

You've got taking Kool Aid shots.

[John Deloney]

You're in.

[Caller]

We have fifteen hundred dollars that we owe to the irs.

[John Deloney]

We have.

[Caller]

About two thousand dollars on a personal loan for heating and air conditioning. And then we have a credit card that's 14,300.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. And that's it.

[Caller]

And then 60, 65,000 in student loans for. I'm a nurse.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. Okay, perfect, perfect. No car payments.

[Caller]

Correct.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, great.

[Caller]

We.

We own the two. We have free and clear.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, awesome. Yep. So. Well, you listed them out small to largest. I'm assuming you know about the debt snowball as you're paying off the smallest and the irs, regardless of the amount, gets bumped up to the. To the front. You pay that off first and foremost. And then how much do you guys make a year?

[Caller]

It's 100. I think it was 110. 10.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. Is your husband retired or is he working?

[Caller]

Retired. He. He just has his Social Security, but he's actually been talking to one of our neighbors and plans to start working for the city over the winter to bring in a little extra income from him as well.

[Rachel Cruze]

Oh, amazing. Amazing. How much margin are you guys finding in your budget just to throw at this debt per month?

[Caller]

Honestly, right now, very minimal. I'm. We literally, like today I paid for the. The premium part of the everydollar budget. And I'm just. I'm really struggling because although it shows that we should be good and that I've got a. You know, it's an every dollar budget. When I go in and I put in the paycheck planning aspect of it, it seems like every month we're.

[Rachel Cruze]

A lot of your bills probably hit a certain time of the month before the paycheck.

[Caller]

I don't know what it is, but it seems like we're overdrafted almost every month at least once when we pay the mortgage.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes. Okay. So part of that is maybe when the bills do hit. And that's why I love that paycheck Planning feature in EveryDollar because it allows you to see, this is when my paycheck actually hits and what will be in my account and what bills were owed before that hits right after. And all of it. So you can actually see. So you. You guys may. After seeing some of this contact, whether it's utilities, even your mortgage company subscriptions, any. Anything that you have that's going out to see if you guys can even spread out and change the date of when those are due so that it actually is more fluid, if you will. Because if they're. If they're all front loaded, but you and your monthly budget, but you're only getting one paycheck on the 15th, that may not be enough to cover it. All. Right. Or on the 30th. So. So you may just need to kind of spread those bills. Bills out so that. That'll be helpful from a logistical side and then from everything else. Like if he even makes, what, 30, 40,000, like if he can bring in something and not even just through the winter. I mean, I really would, Kelly, I would. I would both be working. And I appreciate you even saying a second job. Yep. To get all this. To get all this paid off.

[Caller]

If I get the job that I'm looking at, it'll be. I'm working full time now, and then I'm getting. My interview is for a weekend option. And so Basically I'll work two 12 hour shifts, but it's gonna pay 36 hours.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[Caller]

And that'll be an additional about $6,000 a month.

[John Deloney]

That will be excellent.

[Rachel Cruze]

Amazing.

[Caller]

Just from me.

[Rachel Cruze]

Amazing. That's so good. So, so good. Yep. Because, I mean, I think you guys could. I mean, if you're making. If you're doing that kind of work, I mean, $83,000, you guys can pay that off.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, we'll cook through this.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, I think you'll do great.

[John Deloney]

And Kelly, like, can I. Hopefully this gives you a little bit of peace. Do you know what the interest rate is on my emergency fund?

[Caller]

On your emergency fund?

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Caller]

I. I don't have any idea.

[John Deloney]

I don't either.

[Caller]

Oh, okay.

[John Deloney]

I don't care what I'm. What I. I like. That's not the point of it. And so, like, circling all the way back to your money market question. I like my emergency fund where I can get to it if I need it, but I'm not looking for the best deal. I'm looking for something that's separate from my checking account. Right. So I don't, quote, unquote, accidentally buy a boat. Right.

[Caller]

Right.

[John Deloney]

And I want it, but I want it where I can get it.

[Caller]

Yes. And I think that's why we like the Money market ideas. Because although a savings account would be maybe easier, but it's also more easily accessible. Right now. I don't trust myself.

[John Deloney]

Is your husband on. Why don't you trust yourself? You sound like you're doing a great job.

[Caller]

Well, because we're both definitely spenders. Neither one of us are savers. And we're so early into this, and it's just like.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, Kelly, can I ask at least.

[Caller]

I feel like at least we know ourselves.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. He's seven. He's 71. Did he bring. Does he have any retirement?

[Caller]

No, ma'.

Am.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. Because the numbers you gave me were really low.

[John Deloney]

Social Security Security.

[Caller]

Yeah, he's getting Social Security. He gets a check for $2,096 a month.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. But he didn't. During his working lifetime, he didn't put money away.

[Caller]

He did not. He owned his own lawn service.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. Okay, gotcha. Which is why he's mowing the lawn. But he's pretty good at it.

[John Deloney]

No, he's mowing the lawn because his wife said, I'm calling Dave Rames. And he's like, well, gut work to do, and he headed outside.

[Caller]

I'm leaving the house and shining, and I'm going outside.

[John Deloney]

I bet he is. I bet he is. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

Well, Kelly, you guys are doing great, and you're just at the beginning of this. I mean, I really give you props. A lot of people kind of just like, dance around the edges, and, like, I think I may do it, I may not. We call it kind of Ramsey Ish. And it just takes longer to get the momentum going for people, but people that really make a decision. And you sound decisive, Kelly, you're like, nope, we did. We're starting it. We got our thousand dollars. We got our every dollar app. Like, we are doing it. And you just signed up this morning.

[John Deloney]

Right.

[Rachel Cruze]

Like, I'm. Like, you're. You're. You're in the process. You got the job interview. I think you guys are going to feel traction like you've never felt before. I think you're going to feel control over your money like you've never felt before. And my prayer is that your husband and you together are excited you guys are working together, and I hope it adds and brings something to your marriage, too, that you've never had before.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, yeah. They're gonna have to talk and go on walks together because you don't have any money for anything else. Right. You have to sit by a fire.

[Caller]

Right now we're. Yeah, but say right now we're just trying to Figure out, you know, the budget and yeah, Christmas coming up and trying to get everything planned for that way.

[John Deloney]

Everybody's gonna be fine.

[Caller]

A little bit of a midlife crisis when I turn 48 and I'm like, oh my gosh.

[John Deloney]

So this year everybody's getting a love letter from their Aunt Kelly. They're not getting anything special because you don't have any money. But next year your gifts will be totally different because you all sacrificed this year. It's amazing. Proud of you. Welcome to the cult.

[Caller]

Sam.

[John Deloney]

Foreign the all new Every dollar is here and now. It's way more than just our world class budgeting app. There's a ton of advanced features to help you make faster progress with your money. The average person finds thousands of dollars in margin in just the first 50, 15 minutes. Start every dollar for free today. Get in the App store or get it in the app store or on Google Play. It's the financial app that Rachel and I both use. George use everybody use it. And it's pretty rad. Let's go out to St. Louis, Missouri and talk to the mighty Cam. What up, Cam?

[Caller]

Hey, how's it going?

[John Deloney]

Doing great. How are you?

[Caller]

Oh, just another day. Can't complain.

[John Deloney]

But you could, but you sound like George. What's up?

[Caller]

Yeah, so I have a question. So I have some business debt that I have strongly considered paying off earlier. Paying off even some of it like right now. But I'm kind of in the predicament where I have some very knowledgeable people in my life, like my accountant and then some other family members and stuff. That pretty nice net worth. And I know with Dave's method of the whole buy a rental property paid off, use the profit, put it in an index fund and then buy another one pretty well cash free, I guess, or debt free. They've told me that it'd be better to leave that debt, I guess and to keep it. You can leverage money differently and you could. I don't know.

[John Deloney]

They didn't.

[Caller]

They never did really did give me like an exact straight answer. But I'm kind of wondering what your all thoughts are and like why it would be beneficial to keep the debt.

[Rachel Cruze]

I guess to keep the business debt because that feels different to me than the, than the buying a rental property with debt that was like 2 cents separate subject.

[Caller]

Well, it's kind of like yeah, like I have a rental llc I guess, but using that LLC to buy. Well, it would be essentially debt in general. But it's all on business assets, I guess.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, it's what Dave went broke doing. It's the. It is. I am going to take out $100,000. Let's pretend we're in 1985. I'm going to take out $100,000 loan on this house with no money down and I'm going to put a renter in there.

[Caller]

There.

[John Deloney]

And then I'm going to borrow against that house and then I'm going to.

[Rachel Cruze]

Or try to flip it for 150 and it ends. Yeah, yeah.

[John Deloney]

And I'm going to. Yeah. I'm going to take a 60 day note on it, try to flip it for 150 and then I'm going to take out another. The. When you say the word leverage, I want you to think of a teeter totter, right?

[Caller]

Yep.

[John Deloney]

Guys love talking about leverage. And leverage. And leverage. Just remember the other side. There's always another side to that fulcrum. There's always something else on the other side of that. And so what Dave is saying is I'm just not playing the leverage game. I'm out. This is a dumb game. So here's the deal. If you go in your rental property portfolio in your LLC and you buy a house and you own it and then Covid hits and the government says your renters don't have to pay rent for 18 months, it's a really, really annoying going. It's not catastrophic, right?

[Caller]

No, absolutely. Yeah. And I don't know, like, I think their thought process is like I make enough to where it doesn't. I mean theoretically I could.

[John Deloney]

Today you make enough without that. You make enough today.

[Caller]

Exactly.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Caller]

And if something did happen, obviously that's a big deal. 100.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

Or the market slows down. I mean, who knows, you know what I mean? Like there's just so much many risk factors that people do not put into the equation. And all they do when they do their calculations is everything works out.

[John Deloney]

It's all upside.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's all good. It's all good.

[John Deloney]

Your job is going to last forever. The market's going to appreciate at the same rate forever. The balloons you're going to sell it because the real estate market's always going to work like it has the last three years forever. Like everything's just assumed on best case scenario.

[Rachel Cruze]

And Cam, honestly too, when you run the numbers when you're trying to play the rental game, because there's kind of the flip game game, the rental game. My husband does flips. We do it with cash. But like I know that game because we're in that and so I could Speak to that. But even the rental side, because we did that for a little bit. And I'll be honest, if you had a mortgage on it, the amount you pay for rent plus all the maintenance, everything that you have to put into the house and having a mortgage, it ends up, you end up not making a ton. Like you would be better off financially just putting money in an index fund fund and just letting it grow. And that's hassle free and stress free. You're not dealing with anything or you.

[John Deloney]

Play the game for 15 years or 10 years and hope the renters never miss and they pay your mortgage off someday.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. And that's a long.

[John Deloney]

That's two presidential elections from now.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

So it's just, you tell me what.

[Rachel Cruze]

Our world's going to look like. It's just, it's not as liquid and easy and passive as people make it out to be. It's really not. And so when you get into it, it's like, it's just, it's a lot of hassle. And again I think if you, if there's not a mortgage payment and you're, that's why we say yes to, to move at the speed of cash and you can still do it. It just is going to take longer. But once you get a renter in and you don't have a mortgage, then yeah, all that cash gets set aside. Set aside. But it takes a little while to build that up. Couple years to even go and cash flow something else too, you know. So it is a long game. But I would rather do that with no risk then golly, have four or five rental houses where I have mortgages on everything. And you're trying to keep renters. I mean you are a property manager at that point and you're still have, trying to have a life and a full time job.

[John Deloney]

So Cam, here's the game I'm playing. Okay. You don't have to play this game. This is just the one I play in my house. Some people like to play the leverage game. I've got this side of the teeter totter stacked up and I'm constantly trying to shuffle and move things on the other side of the teeter totter to keep this thing from falling. Right.

[Caller]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

The game I play in my house is, is my financial strategy is to solve for peace. That's it. And I will gladly play pay 2% on a 5 and a half percent mortgage or a 6% mortgage versus a 4% mortgage. I'll pay that 2% to have like I could be putting that money in the market and I would pay that 2% as a sleep tax because nobody can take my house from my wife if I was to to die. That's peace.

[Caller]

No, absolutely.

[John Deloney]

So I opt out of the game and I, I'm just not going to play the leverage game. And you know what? I've got friends in my life, they love it, it lights them up. And also they're aging way faster than me. Right. They drink way more than I do. Right. But if you play that game, just know you're playing that game. And it has to all work out for it to be okay. I'm just choosing to solve for peace for me and my wife and my kids. Nobody can take my house away from me. I've got stable investments. Look at real estate, like I'm just going to be smart. And when I make a move on something, I want it to be mine. I don't want some bank to own it and me pretending I own it through them.

[Caller]

Okay, no, that totally makes sense, Jack, because I mean, so I have like my house is paid off, my trucks, I paid, I wrote a check for.

[John Deloney]

Amazing. Good for you brother.

[Caller]

I appreciate it. Essentially I do have, I have like 200 and depending on the day like 280k in a brokerage account that I manage and it has quite been in there for a year. So I'm still looking at short term capital gains that I sold it and then I've got like another 210 on hand. I mean theoretically, should I take that 210 on hand and just go ahead and wipe out my two rental properties?

[John Deloney]

I would, I would today.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes.

[John Deloney]

Like if it was my house, I would do that today. Then you'd have, bro. You'd have three houses free for.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes.

[Caller]

No. Yeah, that's kind of what I thought. Because in my eyes, like, no, they say you can like write off interest, but I'm not getting anything out of the interest. That's what their thought process was. Well, yeah, market and make more, but right. With the interest. But that's still not my money. Like it's not going to my equity and it's not in my pocket. So it's like I don't see how that's really my money either. Right.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. And, and back to John's point too, Cam, like the math game, people say it a lot like that. Actually your exact scenario, they're like, I literally have cash and I have a mortgage that I could pay off with the cash. But for some people, like, well, it's in the Market and I'm making 18% but my mortgage, you know, is at 3% like and I'm going to be making this amazing, you know, 15 spread and yada, yada, yada, all the things. And again, at the end of the day, we have never met someone who has paid off their primary residence and or rental properties and just owned them and called us back and they were like, I hate being debt free. I want a mortgage again. I want a mortgage again. Where can I go get a mortgage?

[John Deloney]

That's the beauty of your situation.

[Rachel Cruze]

Nobody says that. They're all like, God, that felt so good. Oh my gosh. I didn't realize some level of stress that I carry that I don't even realize because you know, when it Proverbs says the borrower is slave to the lender and that is a powerful picture and we don't talk about that enough in our world today that emotionally, spiritually, financially, you know, you, you owe someone something and when you are free and clear of that cam and you are a smart guy, you work hard, you do really well, you're going to stack up some much cash so fast and all that equity in those homes like your kid, that is changing your family tree.

[John Deloney]

Well, and if you hate it, pay them off today and give yourself two months of sleep. If you hate having three paid off houses, go take a HELOC out on both of them February 1st.

[Rachel Cruze]

Hey guys, it's Rachel Cruz and I've got great news for you. The Ramsey Christmas cash giveaway is here. We are giving away $500 every week plus a grand prize of $5,000 in cash. Listen, you can enter daily to boost your chances of winning and there's no purchase necessary. Just go to ramseysolutions.comgiveaway giveaway. That's ramseysolutions.comgiveaway. good luck, you guys.

[John Deloney]

Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we are here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fair Wind Credit Union studio, this is the Ramsey Show. I'm John Deloney, joined by the one and only Rachel Cruz. And we're taking your calls on money and work and relationships and your mental emotional health. Everything, anything you got going on in your life, we will sit here with you and we'll help you figure out the next right move. Let's go to Tampa, Florida and talk to Ma. Double T. What's up, Matt? How we doing, brother?

[Caller]

Doing well.

Thank you guys for taking my call.

[John Deloney]

You got it, man. We're what's up.

[Caller]

Well, I've Got a question. I recently did a job change and changed companies. And before I did it and kind of subsequently after I did it, I've. I've crunched a bunch of numbers, and I keep thinking to myself, this was a good financial move. However, there are just bouts of anxiety that kind of, I don't know, overcome just kind of come randomly that are like, hey, you made a mistake. And so I feel like I just need somebody else with some. With some financial wisdom just to talk through and make sure I'm looking at everything correctly as I. As I start the new venture.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right.

[John Deloney]

I'm smiling not at you, but at. At your math problem. So are you doing a math problem and it's not working out like you thought? And you're like, no, no, this was good. This was good. Or are you looking at this and you actually have a bunch of margin? And there's other things that your body's trying to get your attention about this job move.

[Caller]

I would say the math seems to be working out. Out. And I think that if you had said, let's look at Matt's financial position in August versus Matt's in October, you would be like, october is better. Like, Matt is better. However, it's like I can't. I can't beat the anxiety away.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller]

I can't be like, the fact that I don't.

[Rachel Cruze]

Let me get the numbers real quick, because I think it's more. I think. I think John's hitting it right, and I just want to clear the. Clear it. So were you making. And what are you going to make in your new job?

[Caller]

Job? So I was making about 520 at the old job, and I'm making about 400 at the new job.

[Rachel Cruze]

520,000.

[Caller]

That's right.

[Rachel Cruze]

And then you took a pay cut of 120 to 400,000.

[Caller]

That's right.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[Caller]

But I'm commission. I'm commission only, so I'm in sales, and I got to bring my clients over. I've probably brought.

[Rachel Cruze]

So will you. I mean, make more than 400, you think, think because it's a sales job.

[Caller]

No, I. I think I. No, I think I'll make 400 next year.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. That's what you're doing.

[Caller]

Yeah.

And I have the potential to make more as time goes on. I mean. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

And Matt, do you have a lot of debt?

[Caller]

So when I took the new job, they paid me a. They paid me a pretty hefty signing bonus. And what's happening? A million.

[Rachel Cruze]

Nice. Pretty hefty.

[John Deloney]

You undersold that one a little bit.

[Rachel Cruze]

So they got a million dollar signing bonus.

[John Deloney]

So you paid off everything, right?

[Caller]

Well, okay. I paid off all consumer debt and a car loan. I have about 800 left. I put 150 in a side account, which is basically college funding for my kids. Just to have it kind of earmarked for that.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[Caller]

And then I just have. I have 65 or 650 in a non qualified account that I just.

[Rachel Cruze]

How much. Do you have a mortgage? Do you have a mortgage or paid off house?

[Caller]

I got a mortgage. The house values probably 1.4 million and I owe about 757.

50,000?

Yeah, about a $5200 payment.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

And you could pay it off today because you got 800k just sitting there, right?

[Caller]

Yeah, but I mean I do have some of that year marked for college. My kids.

[John Deloney]

Oh, yeah. I'm not saying to do that. I'm just trying to get the numbers right. Okay.

[Rachel Cruze]

But to the point. Point that like you guys are like, if you had to in six months you could have a paid off house.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. Okay. All right, so now. So we're good. Matt is good. Well done, Matt.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, well done.

[Rachel Cruze]

Well, by the way, so now there's anxiety and I need a job where.

[John Deloney]

I get a million dollars signing bonus. I got a high five and a hug. Okay, so Matt, here is a rule of thumb that I subscribe to when it comes to inc. Anxiety. What if my body's right? Not the way most people are trained, which is if you're anxious about something, that means your body is somehow malfunctioning. And so if we look at your life, your marriage, your kids, your job, the potential impact of AI, the. Your. Your parents health, all these different things. If we were to look at your personal health, your physical health, your spiritual. If we were to look at these things and ask ourselves, if anxiety is simply just an alarm system, what is our body trying to get our attention about? Where is our body seeing? Hey, you're not safe right here.

[Caller]

Yeah, I think it's the. I think it would be the uncertainty of 5 years, 10 years, or 15 years down the road. Like I feel like at my previous job, I mean, not exactly, but I mean, I feel like I could have almost mailed it in. I mean, I had the contacts, I had the relationships. I mean, I could have just been like, you know, oh, hey, you need this. Yep. And just. And just continue. And now that's changed and I've the failure of it not growing to that point. Point in the future. Is like, hey, you, you could have just stayed, you could have not been stressed. You could have not had any of this anxiety. You could have just stayed at the previous company and worked.

[John Deloney]

Or you, you could have been walking in a, in, in a bridge collapse on your head. Right. So playing the what if game is usually a symptom of something deeper. It is, it, it's, it's. The nerd word is rumination. It's your body's way of trying to come up with creative ways to solve future and, or past problems. And those strategies help you avoid dealing with what the real issue is today.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. Matt, what caused you to change jobs in the first place?

[Caller]

Yeah, I mean, I felt like I didn't, I didn't like the fact that I could mail it in. I felt like I needed to be challenged. I felt like I wanted, I wanted something new.

[Rachel Cruze]

So then you get it in a sense.

[John Deloney]

You got.

[Caller]

Now I've got.

[John Deloney]

Here's worst part. You got it. You got a million dollar signing bonus. You got a $400,000 year job and you went with you.

[Caller]

Yes. So I feel, yeah, maybe there's a little anxiety. Like I, I bet on myself and I'm a little bit nervous.

[John Deloney]

That, that great. That means that anxiety is right. It's good. And so Dr. Wendy Suzuki at NYU, she, she says anxiety is an annoying. But a friend, it's just looking out and saying, I feel something is unsafe in this environment. And it's you saying, oh yeah, I doubled down on myself. By the way, if you bet on yourself with a million dollars in the bank, that's a pretty safe bet. Well played, dude. Right. Okay, let me ask you a deeper question. Do you have any friends, any guys that you hang out with on a regular basis in your new community?

[Caller]

Yes, I actually do, but I'm a little nervous to tell them. I mean, I think I'm a little bit nervous to tell them about the financial situation.

[John Deloney]

Okay, then they're, they're not your gang then.

[Caller]

Well, they're not.

[John Deloney]

Here's why. Your friends are people you tell the, the, the tough stuff to, the friends you tell the dark stuff to. But also friends are people you tell the good stuff to. And your wins, your celebrations don't come at their experience expense. They're happy for you too.

[Caller]

Yeah, I think they would be, I think right about that.

[John Deloney]

Then that to me is the, that's your next chess move.

[Rachel Cruze]

And it's not a bragging thing. It's just a full picture of who you are. Matt, here's the situation I just got into. And I can't believe I'm still spinning out.

[John Deloney]

Y'.

[Rachel Cruze]

All, like, what is sit with me with, like, I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's just the first year.

[John Deloney]

I got a number one book. I called one of my old friends. He's the executor of my will. And I said, hey, I need to tell somebody that I just had a crazy good year. And he was so happy for me. And it didn't come at the expense of the year he had financially. He's been my guy Buddy for, for 30 years now, but we got to celebrate together. But it started with not me being like, dude, guess what I did? It was, hey, I just need to share this with somebody. I had a huge win and I can't tell anybody. And man, he was so happy. That's your next move, bro.

[Dave Ramsey]

When you're tired of feeling stuck with money, there's just one solution. To get different results, you have to do something different. No one accidentally wins with money. You have to have a game plan. And that begins with our get started assessment. Go to ramseysolutions.com start, answer some questions and we'll show you what steps to take next. Don't stay stuck. Take control of your money. Starting Today, go with ramseysolutions.com start.

[Caller]

Foreign.

[John Deloney]

Everybody needs insurance and it can be impossible to find pros who are not just looking to make a buck off of your fear and off your lack of understanding the complexities of the insurance market. So listen with Ramsey trusted. With a Ramsey trusted insurance pro, you will never have to deal with a sleazy business or slimy salespeople because Ramsey trusted insurance pros are all interviewed, vetted and coached to make sure they are market experts who have your best interest at heart. Rachel, I've experienced this in my personal life. It's been amazing having insurance folks I can call and be like, hey, I'm thinking about doing this. What about this? And they call me proactively. It's been amazing. Go to ramseysolutions.com coverage to find the type of insurance you're looking for and connect with a Ramsey trusted agent or click the link in the description if you're listening on YouTube or podcast. These are the pros that I out check trust with my family's future if something were to happen to me or when something happens to me. And they will take care of your family too. Ramsey Solutions.com coverage All right, let's go to Raleigh, North Carolina and talk to Caitlyn. What's up? Caitlyn?

[Caller]

Hey, how are y' all doing?

[John Deloney]

Great. How are you?

[Caller]

I'm doing all right. Glad y' all are doing well as well.

[John Deloney]

What's up?

[Caller]

So my question is, should I pay a stupid tax and move my family back into our old home, or should I put a renter in our old home and sell it for a lesser amount to an investor?

[John Deloney]

What happened?

[Caller]

So we put our home on the market, and we had a buyer, and the buyer backed out an hour before we were supposed to go to the closing table for the sale of our old home and the purchase of our new home.

[Rachel Cruze]

Oh, man.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

So that stopped the sale of your new home, or did you go ahead and buy it anyway?

[Caller]

So we did not buy it. It was contingent, us being able to buy it on us selling our other home. So the seller of the new home, we had already moved. We have a small child, and we had to be out of the house at closing. So we had already moved everything into our new home. So the seller was gracious enough to allow us to pay additional due diligence every month to go more towards the down payment of the home and allow us to stay there.

[Rachel Cruze]

Because, you know, the new home, you're basically renting.

[John Deloney]

Renting it.

[Caller]

We're basically renting it.

[Rachel Cruze]

You've not signed anything, correct?

[Caller]

Correct. So we've invested a little over $10,000 of money in this house. And, you know, I. We have small children, our family is settled, and our older house has not sold like we thought it was going to. So my question, should we pay the stupid tax and leave all that money in the dust and go back to our old house home, or should we put a renter in it to pay that mortgage and then save up enough money to purchase this home?

[Rachel Cruze]

How long ago was all this, Caitlin?

[Caller]

So we were supposed to close at the end of June.

[Rachel Cruze]

Oh, so you guys have been in this other home renting from them, not even buying for six months? Yes. Okay. And what's been going on for six months? What it like, what have you been waiting for your other house to sell? We have, and it's just been sitting.

[Caller]

It's just been sitting. It's kind of. You know, when a house comes back on the market, it has a black cloud over it. People think something's wrong with it, and there's not.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah, they, like, flag it or something. Did. How. How far of a distance is it? Different cities or just different part of town?

[Caller]

A different part of town. The reason we were selling the home Is the street we were living on was consistently getting busier and busier. My husb was actually hit pulling into our driveway. Someone wrecked in our ditch. That might be another reason that's sitting and having small children. We just didn't feel safe on that road anymore. And we want to expand our family, grow our family. We're a young couple.

[Rachel Cruze]

Sure.

[Caller]

So that was the goal. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

No, I hear you. I'm so sorry. That's so frustrating. But I. Yeah, I mean, Caitlin, I hate to say it. I would. I'd pay the stupid tax and go back. I mean, I almost would just see it as a gift that you guys didn't actually go through with the contract of this new house. Because if you had two more mortgages that you had to pay like this would. You know what I mean? Like that. That would be. Golly.

[John Deloney]

Unless you can take less of a stupid tax and drop the sale of the. I mean, if you're going to lose 10 grand or 15 grand or whatever it is going to be, could you drop the price of your other house that much?

[Caller]

That's. That's what I'm thinking. If I were to sell it to an investor, obviously we would have to lower the price of the home because investors, they're there to make money, not spend money.

[Rachel Cruze]

You talk to an investor that's interested.

[Caller]

I have talked to a few that are interested. They want a renter in it first before they would purchase it because it doesn't have a history as a rental property. It only has a history as a home. So should I give it some more time and see if I can find a renter?

[Rachel Cruze]

No, you don't need to play. No, no.

[John Deloney]

Here's what you've done. And I say this often on the show, and so I'm kind of beating a dead horse here. You have. You have backed yourself into an either or corner. And anytime I. In my life, when I back myself into I have to do this crazy thing or I have to do this extreme thing, that's when I get myself into trouble. And so an exercise I use in my own house when I feel like I have to do this or I have to do that is I force four or five other variables on the table just as a what if. What if this happened? And so what if you went and interviewed, interviewed another. You found who is the top real estate person in your area after this, I want you to get on ramseysolutions.com realestate get a real estate pro. And you sat down that person and said, this has happened. I've got $10,000 to drop this. I would love you to sell it before it even comes to market. Can you help me? And I've had that conversation. And the guy I did that with said done, and he did it. It was amazing. Okay. After nine months of a house being on the market was wild. Okay, okay. But maybe that's one. Or maybe you get aggressive with, we're going to drop it $20,000 and we're going to end up paying a stupid tax, but we're not going to have to move or like. And, and again, I'm just making stuff up off the top of my head. But I want you and your husband to back out of. We either have to stab this thing or we have to burn this thing. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Before we do one of those, you don't have to sell it to an investor or, or pack up everything and move away.

[Rachel Cruze]

And on the other end of that formula, the other thing is too that this house that you're currently in is not the only great house either. So maybe you do move back and you guys press pause for a year, find something else. Because again, I just don't want you stuck. You need to have a deadline of how long you are going to basically be paying your rent and this other mortgage.

[Caller]

They never gave us a deadline of when they would want this.

[Rachel Cruze]

No, I know they didn't. But you guys. Yeah, because you could be on this for two years and it just, you know what I mean? Like, you need some level of urgent, which I know you guys feel urgent. I know it's like a lot and very overwhelming. But, but to get, to force yourself to get creative to what John's saying versus just like, well, we'll just see how this all plays out. Have a deadline and say, okay, for sure by February, like something's got to. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, like that's going to help, I think, bring some sanity when you have some clear timeline and it's not just this proposal, perpetual, ongoing situation.

[Caller]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Rachel Cruze]

But, yeah, but I would talk to a great real estate pro because in the perfect world, the house sells and it's been on the market for four months. I'm seeing here on our board that the at net median days on market is 62 days for houses. So you're double that basically. But not crazy, right? I mean, it's four months. And so yeah, maybe you get a realtor and you say, hey, for the next three months we're Going to just do some things, creative things, to figure out how to get this house sold.

[John Deloney]

And this may show my ignorance here, Caitlyn. I'll ask Rachel because she's in the real estate game. If I see something that says house back on market, I instantly run to it.

[Rachel Cruze]

I think you can get a deal.

[John Deloney]

I think either I get a deal or somebody wanted this and they, they got to where they couldn't afford it. I. I've never saw it as a black cloud. I always saw it as like a for sale opportunity.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yes. Yeah. And whoever's looking on the MLS or like if there is someone that's trying to buy in your area and they seek that, all they have to do is call up and be like, hey, bad inspection. You know what I mean? And from the integrity of the agent, they have to be honest. And if it was a bad inspection, they'd have to say that. And then you guys are gonna have to fix it all the things. But no, it was just that the buyer left at close like an hour before closing and do with it. You know what I mean?

[Caller]

And it is a weird house. It has a weird layout. It's one of those split level homes. Yes, it is on a busier road. So it does have its floor.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's value maybe may have dropped since.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, maybe less than a traditional comp would be. Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

Y.

[John Deloney]

Have y' all dropped the price a lot yet?

[Caller]

We have. So it appraised for 310 in June and we've since lowered the price to 289.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Rachel Cruze]

Would you rather it depreciate like that and get it sold and you guys stay in this new house? Would that be like your perfect plan and just write it all off but.

[Caller]

At least saying you're doing in the perfect world? I would rather like lose some money on the cell so I don't have to uplift.

[Rachel Cruze]

That's great. So that's a good decision.

[John Deloney]

And you hate this house too, by the way. You hate it now.

[Caller]

I, I do. I genuinely hate this house at this point. I'm ready for it to be off of my hand.

[John Deloney]

Oh God, I've been there. Oh, I've been there.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caller]

Foreign.

[Dave Ramsey]

Buying and selling a home is a big deal and you want an expert in your corner fighting for you to get the right deal at the right price. That's why we only recommend Ramsey trusted real estate agents. They're handpicked pros who know their stuff, listen to your needs and have your back from the first call all the way. To closing day. To find a Ramsey trusted agent near you, visit ramseysolutions.com agent ramseysolutions.com agent.

[Caller]

Let'S.

[John Deloney]

Go out to Kansas City, Missouri and talk to Kim. What's up, Kim?

[Caller]

Hi.

How are you doing?

[John Deloney]

Remarkable. How about you?

[Caller]

Good, good.

[John Deloney]

What's up?

[Caller]

We are trying to figure out when we can retire. I am 42, my husband's 45. And we feel as though we have a decent number in the bank, but when we do the calculations, it just doesn't seem like enough. And so how do you know when enough is enough?

[Rachel Cruze]

It's a great, great question. Great question. Well, the ideal would be to, to be able to do the calculations say, okay, ideally, if we could retire around age, I don't know, you could pick your age 62, how much would be in the investments? How much do we need to live off of at that point in life? Would we have paid off mortgage? Would we really essentially have no debt, no bills? Would we still have a mortgage? What do we want to do in retirement? How much we want to travel? Right. And you kind of figure out your lifestyle and would you be able to live off of without touching the nest egg? Is the, the goal off of basically the interest that it's going to create? So, I mean, there's. Yeah, a lot of different ways. Yeah, a lot of different ways you can slice it, but I think the big question is, are you guys trying to retire early or are you just like. No, we're just looking at normal retirement age, but we're, we feel like there's.

[Caller]

Not enough, so we are trying to retire early.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[Caller]

My husband would like to retire yesterday.

[Rachel Cruze]

What, what, how old are you guys?

[Caller]

I'm 42 and he's 45.

[Rachel Cruze]

Why do you all want to retire? What's the, what's the rush? I'm just curious.

[Caller]

I think we want to do things that we actually enjoy and love instead of just making money.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

Why are those mutually exclusive in your mind?

[Caller]

Because we are definitely the bootstrap type of people. And so we have. He has worked his whole life the same company in order to, to get this nest egg where it is. And so in order to leave. When you've worked for a company for 20 years, that's very difficult. You don't just walk away. And when you're our age, it's a harder game than it used to be to find a job. And so I think he's ready to just be done and do that thing like pick up golf balls on the golf course where Maybe you don't have insurance or you don't have.

[John Deloney]

Here's the thing you have. Y' all have created. You've twisted the math, if you will, and not real math, but you've twisted the reality to make. To where it's okay for him to get a new job or to change his life. That makes sense. Here's what I know. Y' all are two hard charging people who have worked really hard your whole lives. You will go stark raving mad. You, like, really, like.

[Rachel Cruze]

It's not.

[John Deloney]

It's honestly, the research says if you. If you just retire to, quote unquote, do nothing, or if you retire away from a thing, not towards a thing other than picking up golf balls on a golf course, your body says, okay, cool, but we're done, and it starts shutting off. And so I'm interested in what. What are the things you're trying to escape and what kind of life do you want to build together? And how would. I think we're. I think we are built to work, and I think we are wired for purpose. And so you extract those two things out and you put all that on a number, man. Y', all, I. I just worry about what happens at your 48th birthday. Maybe y' all are like, dude, this is the best life ever is awesome. But that doesn't sound like who y' all are.

[Caller]

Sure. I think that we are looking for more flexibility. And so we're trying to figure out what that looks like in the next.

[Rachel Cruze]

Sure, sure. Yeah. And I think what we're saying is you may have. You may be in a place which we haven't got your numbers, so we can dig into that in just a second. But, you know, you can get to a place where you're like, hey, I don't have to do the nine to five, but I have. Have this talent over here, this passion for this type of industry or this group of people, and I'm gonna put some hours of my week into the service and, you know, figure out a way to still. Yeah. Go travel when I want and do what I can. And maybe you guys worked hard in order to earn that, but when you just stop and do nothing at the age of 45, through the rest of your life for the next 40 years come. It's not good. I mean, genuinely, all the. And it sounds. I know it probably sounds magical because you guys have been working your butts off, but I am telling you, people shut down. I mean, I even see this with, you know, God bless them, they have passed away now, but Even different sets of grandparents and the ones that would just sit in the chair and watch cable news all day deteriorated faster than those that like, was out. You know, they would come to school, they would. They were moving and doing things, you know what I mean? Like, there's something about this equation that work is just terrible and we gotta get out of it. And to kind of reshape that to what John said at the beginning that I think is important. Finding something that gets you out of.

[John Deloney]

Bed in the morning.

[Rachel Cruze]

And again, that can be not as many hours as you guys are working, but I would still have something that you're looking at. And even if it's volunteer, maybe I don't even care about that. But there's something bigger that you're living for and not just golfing.

[John Deloney]

All right, so how much money do you have?

[Caller]

Quite a bit. So I'm a sole heiress of a real estate mongol, so. Quite a bit.

[Rachel Cruze]

What's quite a bit? 500 million. 5 million?

[John Deloney]

2 billion.

[Rachel Cruze]

2, 2 billion.

[Caller]

Do it about 9 million.

[Rachel Cruze]

9 million.

[John Deloney]

Okay, and so is that, is that all still tied up in real estate assets?

[Caller]

So we own our own business. So part of it is, yes. We still have real estate assets that we do still manage on the daily. And then other of its investments in the market. Other if it's in cash, I mean, it's in. It's in a lot of different veins.

[John Deloney]

So your total net worth is 9 million?

[Caller]

Yes.

[John Deloney]

Okay, and what, what does that pay out to you every month?

[Caller]

That's a tough question because we have it all in different buckets. So our businesses in one bucket are. My husband works full time for a. Another company just to have a. Another source of income. And so everything's bucketed out. So I can't really tell you how much it brings in monthly because we don't look at it at that aspect right now.

[John Deloney]

Okay. You've got to know what your expenses are and you've got to know how much you bring in every month as just a.

[Caller]

We do know those numbers. Yes. So those numbers are hard. We do know like what we bring in every month, which is what I. About 9,000.

[John Deloney]

Okay. So that like the rental incomes and if you've got derivatives coming in and his paycheck, all that adds up to about nine grand a month, what you'll make.

[Caller]

That is just what our business pays me and what his job pays him. We don't touch any of our investments outside of that, and we take nothing out of our business other than what it pays me.

[John Deloney]

Okay. So what do you all owe? Are you all good for the next 20 years on cars, house, everything?

[Caller]

Yeah, we own nothing on anything.

[Rachel Cruze]

So if you were to quote unquote, retire next month, let's just play that game. Where are you going to be getting money from?

[Caller]

We would still have our investments, so we would still have our real estate side of our business. That brings in a $40,000 a year. That's which what pays us. It brings in more than that, but that's the portion that we use for salary.

[Rachel Cruze]

But what would you do? You can't. Okay, yeah, keep going.

[Caller]

And then we have investments in the market that we'd have to start using. We'd have to pull off from those which haven't done before.

[Rachel Cruze]

How much are in those?

[Caller]

About 3 million.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. And is the, is the real estate or do you own it now? Like did your parents? Like it's been passed to you so you have full ownership, your name's on it and everything. Okay, good.

[Caller]

Okay.

Yes.

[Rachel Cruze]

So you have 3 million in. I don't have a calculator.

[John Deloney]

It's in the market. So is it, is it in?

[Caller]

Yes, just in the market.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Rachel Cruze]

So could you guys live off of 250 a year or is that feel like less than what you guys live off of now?

[Caller]

Oh, we live off way less than that now. We live off of probably about 120 on a good year.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. So what I would probably do, Kim, honestly, is I would sit down with a financial planner and map all this out because of your assets and what you guys have. That doesn't always mean obviously it's, it's all liquid. I mean hopefully like there is money coming off of those assets that you guys can use and live off of. But I want you to get some more concrete numbers and figure out. So my, the only, only like red flag I always have with like it's kind of that fire movement is what it's called. Like they try to like, you know, retire early.

[Caller]

Yep, that's my husband's eyes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. So the, so the two downsides to those is all what we talked about at the beginning of the call is that you basically you lose any level of motivation to do anything.

[John Deloney]

Purpose, motivation, community.

[Rachel Cruze]

And it eats you from the inside out over time it does. So that's one negative and the other negative is how life changes and how your lifestyle might change. So you guys might be great living how you are right now, but 62 year old Kim may be super bougie and is like, well I want to Go on this type of meta training cruise and it's like, well, we can't do that this year. We got. You know, you're like, man, I wish we could. I don't know why we. You know, your. Your preferences may change over time, and you're kind of locked into one way of living right. For the rest of your life, too. But the 9 million, it changes it. So I would sit down with. I really would, and look at all your assets and. And to be able to figure out, okay, what can this roll off of and how can we be smart about it so that this can take us long term? But that purpose and meaning thing is big.

[John Deloney]

I want your husband to quit his job and then y' all figure out him getting a new job for a year and try. Today's scripture of the day is Proverbs 22. 3. The prudent see danger and take refuge. But the simple keep going and pay the penalty. Graham Norton says a good rule to remember for life is that when it comes to plastic surgery and sushi, never be attracted by a bargain. Excellent. Excellent.

[Rachel Cruze]

I think that is. That's good. No. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

No.

[Rachel Cruze]

Groupon for. For the old plastic surgery, bro.

[John Deloney]

I have a gas station sushi story.

[Rachel Cruze]

I can't even do. I can't do sushi at an airport.

[John Deloney]

You can't? No.

[Rachel Cruze]

That and gas stations and grocery stores.

[John Deloney]

I'll tell you, James, I don't know why. In Nashville, over at Jasmine, which just love it. James showed me that place.

[Rachel Cruze]

Great spot in the strip mall off.

[John Deloney]

Moore's Lane, right by guitar center.

[Rachel Cruze]

Close 100% by Petsmart, too.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Rachel Cruze]

That's what we're talking, people.

[John Deloney]

This is like free advertising here. Was fantastic.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Where else we're going to go?

[Dave Ramsey]

You.

[John Deloney]

We're going to put a pin down in the show notes here so you know. Exactly. All right, let's go out to Charlotte, North Carolina, and talk to Michael. What's up, Michael?

[Caller]

Hey, how are you? I appreciate you taking my call.

[John Deloney]

You got it, bro. Brother. What's up?

[Caller]

My wife and I are expecting our second child in a few weeks.

[John Deloney]

Congratulations.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Rachel Cruze]

Get ready.

[Caller]

Appreciate that.

[Rachel Cruze]

Get ready.

[Caller]

Yeah, we are. We're excited, but we're. We're a little nervous. It's going to be a lot man.

[Rachel Cruze]

To man defense, but you got it.

[Caller]

Yes. Yeah. Not outnumbered quite yet.

[Rachel Cruze]

No. It's good.

[Caller]

We own both of our cars outright, but neither of them can accomplish. Accommodate a growing family. So we're planning on buying a minivan as soon as possible. We have a nice start to our retirement nest egg for our age. And we have the cash to buy the van with no debt. But we're both natural savers, and we're already losing sleep overseeing the numbers in our bank account plummet. So how do we get over that anxiety? And how should we change our investment rates such that we rebuild that cash fund at a good pace?

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, do you guys have your debt free, you said, right?

[Caller]

We just a mortgage.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yep. Okay, and how much do you guys have liquid cash? That's not the emergency fund. But just like sitting there that you're like, oh, yeah, we have this.

[Caller]

So our liquid and emergency are combined. I typically rotate them through T bills, 4 week T bills, so that, you know, they're still growing. And we have access to that money at a reasonable pace. Okay. We have about 70,000 in cash.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. And that includes the emergency fund. What would you consider. How much of that is the emergency fund?

[Caller]

Half.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, so you got 35. So you got the emergency covered. You have 35 for a new car or new to you, I guess.

[Caller]

Correct.

[John Deloney]

How much do you make?

[Caller]

Combined? We make about 200k.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay. And what could you sell the current car for? What would you get for that?

[Caller]

They're old. We are very much drive our cars into the ground. So I think maybe two or three grand.

[Rachel Cruze]

Okay, so not a ton. Yeah, yeah. I mean, from an income perspective, you're not completely, you're not off at all. I mean, we always say don't not to have anything with motors and wheels. That's half of your annual income. So that'd be a hundred thousand. So you guys are way below that. You have the money for it. The only thing that kind of, I kind of hate that you're wiping out all of your savings. Right. I mean, your emergency fund will still be intact, so I would not touch that, obviously. But the fact that everything else is going to be gone, I could see how that's a little bit like, oh, man, I think I would love to have a little bit more cushion for, for in case something comes up. Right. And again, you can use the emergency fund for that.

[John Deloney]

I always like to lean in, and this is an annoying question, and I know that lean in on this question. When somebody says, the cars we have simply cannot accommodate a family of four.

[Caller]

Yep.

[John Deloney]

Because I, I, we drove a Prius and a Corolla for a while with two little ones. And so, like, what kind of cars are you talking about? Talking about that can't accommodate to two kids.

[Caller]

A sedan and a small hatchback. So kind of Similar to yours.

[John Deloney]

So. So it. You could. It's a pain in the butt to bend over every time, to lean over to get the car seat out. It's. It's the worst. But it's still possible. And here's why I'm asking. If y' all make 200 grand a year and you could pull aside four grand a month for six months, you're. You're. You're to go.

[Caller]

The issue is we also have two dogs, and we do a decent amount of traveling in the cars. So right now, with one car seat, you know, the back seat is car seat. Dog, Dog.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Once the second car seat is in there, it's going to be, you know, car seat, dog, car seat. And then.

[John Deloney]

This is an awful, awful thing I'm about to say, but that ends up meaning your dogs are worth tens of thousands of dollars and travel costs.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And that's a tough pill for me to swallow.

[Rachel Cruze]

So listen, you have the money for it. It's not an astronomical amount. You guys make good money. You could rebuild this. And considering you both are. The fact that y' all both are anxious about it is a red flag to me. I just want this to be a purchase that y' all are excited about and you feel good about. So if that means pausing and waiting another two or three months and piling up some more cash just to have as a buffer of the emergency fund, then maybe that makes y' all feel better. You know what I mean? Like, I want this to be a purchase that again, that you're like, oh, yeah. Because I don't know. I'm kind of with John that, like, you guys would be okay in this car for another five, six months. I mean, years, if you had to. Right. If you. If you literally said, we have no money, we'd be like, okay, we gotta figure out.

[John Deloney]

Easy peasy. Yeah. Parents can come visit you.

[Rachel Cruze]

Yeah. Figure out what you got to do. But you have the money. You guys have worked hard and you saved. And again, it's not an astro. It's not. It's not over that half of your annual income. So you are in the perimeters of it, but you're. You're wiping out everything but your emergency fund to do this one purchase. And if the heat. You know, I don't know. Again, you can always tap into the emergency fund. But I. Me, as a spender, I ha. We have an emergency fund, and then we kind of have another emergency fund that just kind of sits there, too, that we really don't touch. So, like, I Just like to have a buffer in my savings. And I don't know if y' all feel that way, but if you do, then just pause for three months, save up a couple grand, you know, each month, and then be like, okay, good, we have an extra 10 over here. That feels good. Let's, let's, let's buy the van, you.

[Caller]

Know, and let me ask you recommend?

[John Deloney]

Go ahead.

[Caller]

Sorry, go ahead.

[John Deloney]

No, you go ahead, brother.

[Caller]

So would you recommend then? You know, our 401k and other investment contributions are high. Would you recommend dialing those back to like 15%?

[Rachel Cruze]

15%.

[Caller]

Okay, so keep those at 15%. And then everything left over, you think, just put into cash?

[John Deloney]

I would, yeah. Just to give you bills, either just put in cash.

[Rachel Cruze]

Because some people were in your situation and they're going to feel great about buying it because they have the money for it and you do, and you guys. But you're like, golly, we're just stressed and like, oh, I don't know. So then give yourself some buffer.

[John Deloney]

And what shows did y' all come from? Not a lot of money. Where's this money stress come from?

[Caller]

Both of us come from, like, middle class families, so, you know, nothing extravagant, but there was always food on the table type thing.

[Rachel Cruze]

Sure.

[Caller]

To be honest, I don't know where the stress comes from. We know that it's totally unwarranted, but for some reason, we have this conversation over and over and over again. Are we really okay?

[Rachel Cruze]

I mean, could you get, could you find a $20,000 fan, make that part.

[John Deloney]

Of the fund, that you'll find a $30,000 van or instead of a 35 or whatever? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, that may be part of it, but I'll also tell you this. There comes a moment when you have to do the next right thing for your family. Now, I wouldn't say spending $40,000 because your two dogs like to travel, but like, there's the next right thing for your family and it might feel uncomfortable. You get what I'm saying? And so, like, no matter how many number one books I had, no, how much success I've had the last few years, years, all that, I still got that little kid inside of me whose dad was a policeman and money was really tight. And so when I got a new car several months ago, it was like I had cash for it, went and wrote a check for it. It was still hard for me to pull the trigger. And it was, it was nothing. None of it was rational. And so I, I knew I'm gonna go write this check. I'm gonna buy this car. I'm gonna drive it home. And I know I'm gonna have a night of regret and guilt. I'm gonna feel it. And then in a couple days when I'm taking a trip, I'm not worried about the front tires rolling off my car. I'm going to be happy that I have this. And that's how it ended up right. And so there is if you know your body is getting your attention on something and you know that it's not real or that it's not true. Great feelings are designed to keep you safe. They're not designed to tell you the truth all the time. And so y' all feel it and then go make the purchase. But I like Rachel's idea of what if you'll just held off three months and y' all just prove to yourself we could put 15 grand away over three months. You make 200k and then go buy the van that y' all want. All right, thank you so much for being with us. And remember, there's only one way to peace, and that's through Christ Jesus, the prince of peace.